WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:06.280 If an action is blatantly obvious and is implausible deniable. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:12.160 You know, I'm thinking Russian alleged attempts to poison dissidence 3 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:16.120 in Salisbury, for example, in the UK, when it was 4 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:22.199 so obviously them and although another chock means of poisoning 5 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:26.960 so wildly implausible, which that made us think, Okay, what 6 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.879 does that tell us about the role of secrecy in 7 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:32.840 some of these operations? How deniable does it have to 8 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:34.280 be to be covet action? 9 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:42.200 Hey everyone, welcome to episode three hundred and eighty something 10 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:44.880 of the Team House. I'm not exactly sure where we're at. 11 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:47.600 Maybe eighty seven, maybe eighty eight, we'll see, we'll see. 12 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:51.439 It's a surprise today on the show. We have two 13 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:55.200 academics really happy to have on the show today, Agna 14 00:00:55.280 --> 00:01:00.960 Long and Rory Kormick. Magna received her doctorate from ks College, London. 15 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:04.200 She's a research fellow at a few academic institutions in 16 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:07.159 the UK and US. And Rory Kormick is a professor 17 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:12.280 of international relations at the University of Nottingham and Rory, 18 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.120 if you could bring us up to speed both of you, please, 19 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.280 are there any additional publications that you want to mention 20 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.319 because I think Rory you wrote a previous book about 21 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:23.920 this subject. But mainly what we're going to be talking 22 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:27.680 about tonight is this book COVID Action National Approaches to 23 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:31.280 Unacknowledged the intervention. There any other books that you want 24 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:35.239 to point out to people, Well, it would be rude 25 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:35.879 not to uspose. 26 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:40.480 Thanks ever so much for having a son, And yeah, 27 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.280 we're delighted to talk about the book that we credited 28 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.439 with a couple of other colleagues. So I'll just give 29 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:47.959 a quick shout out to Jen Lester, Mark Stouts, and 30 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:52.159 Damian van Pouvelt on this kind of comparative international approach 31 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:56.680 to action, which kind of came out of numerous discussions. 32 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.519 I mean, it came about me and Mark plan a book, 33 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:02.480 and then Damien was planning a similar book, and then 34 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:04.879 Magna and Jen were planning a similar book, and we 35 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:08.599 decided it would just makes sense instead of competing to 36 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.120 join forces. But seeing as you asked, Jack, I also 37 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:15.360 wrote another book a couple of years back, which is 38 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.680 a kind of overview of a synthesis of cop action, 39 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:24.080 academic research and the latest thinking on it, but hopefully 40 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.960 distilled in a accessible way for the general interested reader 41 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.000 and it's called how to Stage a Coup. 42 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:36.080 I have the book on my shelf in the new office, Rory. 43 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:38.599 To my shame, I have not read it yet, so 44 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:44.080 don't hold it against me, Megna. Anything else? Do you 45 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.120 want to talk about any previous works that you published 46 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:48.639 or anything you're working on now? 47 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.719 Well? Relatively new to this world. I'm only just finished 48 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.319 my PhD about two years ago, so I have not 49 00:02:55.639 --> 00:03:00.840 published as politically as my esteemed colleague Rory Kormak, who 50 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:03.639 I feel like publishes the book every two years, which 51 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:09.759 is amazing. But there are Currently I'm working on several 52 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.280 articles and on a book of my own about American 53 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.960 COVID action after the Cold War. So I'm looking at 54 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.120 six different presidents and how they use COVID action and 55 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:24.520 what's changed in American COVID action and how is there 56 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.879 something new that we need to learn about from their experiences. 57 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.520 So so hopefully that's going to be coming out at 58 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.919 some point. And currently I look at more of a 59 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:43.400 shadow side of state craft, how governments secretly shapen world 60 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.719 events using spies, mercenaries or criminals as tools of power, 61 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.280 and how their COVID alliances shaped global politics and below 62 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:57.199 the threshold, threshold of war. So that's what I'm working on. 63 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:02.479 I'm excited to read it. And so this book Covert Action, 64 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.639 as you pointed out, the two of you edited it 65 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.199 with a few others, and there's probably like what close 66 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:14.280 to twenty authors in this book, and each chapter describes 67 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:17.680 a different country's approach to covert action. So you get 68 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.560 in the book, you know some of the ones you'd expect, 69 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:25.959 United States, Canada, Australia, France, Iran, North Korea, or maybe 70 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:29.959 Iran is not in there, but China, Russia, North Korea 71 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.360 is in there. But then additionally, there's a whole bunch 72 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.839 of countries that really aren't commonly written about in these 73 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:42.680 types of books. Palestine, Israel, India, Lebanon, Brazil, Turkey, South Africa, 74 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:46.120 and Nigeria, Bulgaria, a bunch of other different countries and 75 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.920 their approaches to covert action. And that's what for me 76 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.959 personally made this book really interesting and had new information 77 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.079 in it that I wasn't aware of. So I appreciate 78 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:59.480 you guys going the extra mile to take on such 79 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:00.759 a have you worked. 80 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.160 Well, it was, it was It was tricky because we 81 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:11.160 deliberately wanted to be provocative, right, And we did really 82 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.120 deliberately wanted to try and push that the envelope of 83 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:20.839 the historiography and say, look, everyone uses America as the 84 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.879 reference point, particularly historically. I think we say in the book, 85 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.360 you know, the CIA dominates the history books and Russia 86 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.879 dominates today's headlines, you know, And it's that is the particularly, 87 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:36.439 the US is the reference point for all discussions about 88 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.120 covert action. It's all rooted in the so called CIA 89 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.160 Golden Age of coups in the nineteen fifties, and that 90 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:46.920 that intellectual baggage shapes our understanding. And one of the 91 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.319 questions we asked ourselves, which I don't know if it's 92 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:56.240 a bold or a silly question too provocative, was is 93 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:00.040 this actually a thing? And is this is this a 94 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:03.680 part of secret staycraft or is this just a uniquely 95 00:06:04.199 --> 00:06:10.279 American tool which has grown out of a uniquely American 96 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:17.920 political culture or can we say that there is comparison 97 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:23.519 between the US, China, Russia and and can we go 98 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.839 about stage further and say does Brazil engage in covit action, 99 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.160 does Lebanon engage in covi atte action? And what does 100 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:33.639 that tell us about covid at action, and we came 101 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:39.360 it was a bit sticky at times, trying to compare 102 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:43.000 maybe not not quite like for like, And then we 103 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.240 got into all of these debates about well, when does 104 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:52.120 covert action become repression internal policing. For example, if an 105 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:59.000 authoritarian regime is going around murdering or kidnapping dissidents who 106 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:02.600 happened to be living over seas and the primary aim 107 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.560 is to protect the regime by you know, wiping out 108 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:11.360 and disrupting dissident movements, is that covert action as we 109 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:13.839 in the West or the US would understand it, or 110 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.199 is that about you know, domestic or transnational repression? So 111 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:21.279 it got quite quickly. It sounded like quite a fun project, 112 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:23.279 and it was a fun project and we really enjoyed 113 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:25.759 doing it, but quite quickly we came into some quite 114 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.399 sticky questions about state craft and who does what and 115 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:34.279 the relationship between different you know, tools of the dark 116 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:35.920 hearts or how how did you put it back? The 117 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:40.600 sub sub threshold secret state crafty dark artsy stuff is 118 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:42.079 a technical technical. 119 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:45.000 Term technicult technicult, yes. 120 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:50.959 So much a great uh jumping off point because I 121 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.439 wanted to ask the two of you how you define 122 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.040 COVID action. And that may sound like a kind of 123 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:02.680 pedantic question of some of our listeners. They think assassination, recruiting, spies, sabotage, 124 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.199 things like that. But you did come up with like 125 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:10.000 a fairly narrow explanation of what fits in that kind 126 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:13.680 of framework of COVID action. If you guys could explain that. 127 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.439 Yeah, sure, so I'll take this one simply because I 128 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:25.800 studied the United States more when it comes to COVID activities, 129 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.800 and I think one of the challenges that we had 130 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.360 at the very beginning was trying to stay away from 131 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.240 the American definition of COVID action, right, which is an activities, 132 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:39.720 a activity, an activity or activities of the US government 133 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:46.200 to influence political, economic, or military conditions abroad where the 134 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.000 US government is not intended to be a parent or 135 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:49.960 acknowledged publicly. 136 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:50.360 Right. 137 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:55.919 So that's a very strong definition from very bureaucratic. You know, 138 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:59.639 you have different separations of powers you have over so 139 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:03.159 there's so much kind of punched into that. But then 140 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.679 we decided, well, we can't apply if we're looking broadly, 141 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.120 if we're looking at different countries and how they view 142 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:11.360 COVID action and what COVID action means to them, we 143 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:14.279 can't apply the definition of COVID action from the US 144 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:18.039 to this. So we came up with something that, as 145 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.240 Rory explained, we went back and forth that is a 146 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:26.559 little bit more nuanced, and it gave us an opportunity 147 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.639 to also include transnational repression abroad as part of COVID activities. 148 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:37.720 So we framed it as politically motivated and unacknowledged interference 149 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:42.440 by states or state related entities in the affairs of others, 150 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:50.000 which is designed to influence conditions in a favorable manner. Essentially, 151 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.639 we focused on unacknowledged as opposed to deniable, which is 152 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:57.799 in the American definition right to open it up a 153 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:00.320 little bit more precisely for the reasons that the Rory 154 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.320 had explained. In in a sense, how do we you 155 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:06.240 know domestic. 156 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.159 Repression versus foreign repression? 157 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.080 You know, if you're thinking about it, by nature of 158 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.080 activity abroad, you're already violating sovereignty of a state, right, 159 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:21.480 So is that already COVID action. You're already influencing perceptions, cognition. 160 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.159 So there's so much going on there, so how. 161 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:25.480 Can it not be COVID action. 162 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:29.440 So this new definition that we not new definition per se, 163 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:32.639 but you know, broader kind of emphasis on on on 164 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:38.919 what we would include as COVID action helped us put 165 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:42.600 together so many chapters in so many countries with different 166 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:45.600 approaches to this particular problem. 167 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.399 And I think that's really it's really important because on 168 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:53.399 one level, when two professors start talking about semantics of 169 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:56.519 definitions and stuff, you know, there there's there's a risk 170 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:59.399 that it that it becomes that becomes this kind of 171 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:05.000 professorial pontificating about isms and stuff. But Magda's spot on 172 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.279 because these definitions and how we set the parameters have 173 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:14.159 really significant real world consequences for you know, what is 174 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.519 in scope and what's outroscope, what's included in the book 175 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.120 and what's not included in the book, How can we 176 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.559 compare different states? And I think the point about deniable 177 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:29.480 versus unacknowledged. On one level, again it sounds a bit, 178 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:34.720 potentially a bit professorial pontification, but Magda is exactly right 179 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:38.840 that it gets to some I think, really interesting significant questions. 180 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:43.960 For example, we've heard loads in the last ten years 181 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:49.039 or so about particularly Russian covert actions, many of which, 182 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:54.360 particularly before twenty twenty two, commentators seemed to think of 183 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:57.039 as being quite successful. Russia was quite good at disinformation 184 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.600 and sabotage and dare I say, to lecture interference. And 185 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.159 yet these, if we use the American definition, were not 186 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:11.759 remotely plausibly deniable. They were, in fact wildly implausibly deniable. 187 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.519 And this, I think chreates a really significant question about 188 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:22.799 if an action is blatantly obvious and is implausibly deniable. 189 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:28.679 You know, I'm thinking Russian alleged attempts to poison dissidence 190 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.639 in Salisbury, for example, in the UK, when it was 191 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:38.720 so obviously them and the novel Chok Means of poisoning, 192 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:44.039 the ridiculous interview that the two suspects gave where they 193 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:46.639 literally read off the Wikipedia page saying, oh no, no, 194 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:49.360 we weren't there to poison anybody. We were there to 195 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:53.000 see the and I quote three meters high spire from 196 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:57.960 Salisbury Cathedral. Whatever it was this is, it's so wildly implausible, 197 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.720 which then made us think, what does that tell us 198 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.960 about the role of secrecy in some of these operations? 199 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:08.519 How deniable does it have to be to be covert action? 200 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:11.080 And in fact, that's one of the kind of big 201 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:13.960 questions that got me interested in this subject twenty twenty 202 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.639 five years ago, now, God, I'm getting old, was around 203 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:22.440 the CIA's operation working with the Mudjie Hideen against Soviet 204 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.879 occupation in Afghanistan in the nineteen eighties. You know, it's 205 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:29.759 a famous example of covert action and one which is 206 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:35.759 widely deemed to be successful and yet wasn't remotely applaused 207 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.200 with deniable. Everyone knew they were at it, So that 208 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.279 raised the question was it covert? What does covert mean? 209 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.399 Does it have to be deniable to be successful? Probably not, 210 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.600 And so by grappling with you know, the definition, that 211 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:52.600 opens up I think quite some quite important debates about 212 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.480 the role of secrecy in the kind of conflict that 213 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:56.799 we're seeing around the world right now. 214 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.320 Guys want to think, with sponsor while of the Alaskan Company, 215 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.360 it's the best way to get wild caught, perfectly portioned, 216 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.240 nutrient dense seafood delivered directly to your door. Trust me, 217 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:12.279 you haven't tasted fish this good. They send us a 218 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.759 box like two weeks ago, I want to say, they 219 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.159 send us a bunch of stuff, saky salmon, co host 220 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:21.039 salm in the Pacific halibit, the Pacific cod. 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Please 275 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.519 check out the link down the description and support our sponsor. 276 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.480 You know Rory as you're speaking, if I recall correctly, 277 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:31.880 you just published a white paper about sabotage operations, didn't you. 278 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.880 I did, Yes, I did, And I think that that 279 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.039 subject kind of teases out exactly what you're speaking to 280 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.119 is that the Russians are doing sabotage operations, the West 281 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.920 is doing sabotage operations, and everyone knows exactly what the 282 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.000 score is, right, ye. 283 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:51.119 Yes, So what do you mean by what do you 284 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:56.440 mean by the role of cables? Another great example which 285 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.880 mocked the nice more about an audition you might want 286 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.640 to up rate is what's going on with with Trump 287 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.160 and cove att action Venezuela right now, where you've got 288 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.720 the presidents literally telling everybody that he is doing covert action. Now, 289 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.799 how on earth does that play in with our understandings 290 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:14.160 of secret staatecraft? 291 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:17.039 What on earth do you make of that? 292 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:19.839 Yeah? 293 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.680 So, so this is this is one of the you know, 294 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.480 when I when I think about secrecy, when I think 295 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:28.039 about what COVID action is intended to do, and I 296 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.119 think our book really kind of hammers the hammers. This 297 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.519 point is that there are a lot of times it 298 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.160 is not just about influencing foreign posts. It's about signaling, right, 299 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.759 It's about sending a message, you know, And in this 300 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.880 particular instance, there are so many different reasons why why 301 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.079 these things are happening, And you know, I'm not quite 302 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:48.400 sure I can say them all in a in a 303 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:50.279 public forum without you know. 304 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:51.680 Getting into trouble back at home. 305 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.480 But the reality of it is, you know, is it 306 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.640 COVID action? Has it already happened before he announced that 307 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.359 he was doing COVID action? Is it is a COVID action? 308 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.240 If the Special Operations Forces are doing it, you know, 309 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.200 are they doing it under Title ten or our Title fifty? 310 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.480 Are they sheet it? I don't know, you know, the. 311 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:14.160 Reality of it, there's just so many different avenues. But also, 312 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.640 you know, we're so we're so into this, you know, 313 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:20.440 are we doing COVID action Venezuela? Are we doing COVID 314 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:25.279 action in Mexico and other countries where we've designated these 315 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.440 cartels and stars. 316 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:28.039 But the reality is. 317 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.079 We've been doing this all, you know, for decades. We've 318 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:31.440 been doing this since the end of the Cold War. 319 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.440 This is nothing new, except that we are talking about it, 320 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:40.200 and we're signaling, and we're threatening and we're bullying. You know, 321 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:43.599 whether it's the particular nations that are we're having this 322 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.119 kind of signaling with, or whether we're telling the rest 323 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:48.960 of the world. But there's a lot of signaling and 324 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.240 messaging going on here and Whilst they may be new 325 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:57.720 to Americans and American COVID action in terms, but it's 326 00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.519 not new. If you read our book, you'll see this 327 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:03.759 is nothing. This has been going on for decades, centuries, 328 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:06.519 if you will, since we started using COVID action. So 329 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.240 I think, you know, in those terms, the scope is 330 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:14.519 much broader, and it kind of realistically, it also gives 331 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.680 us not just you know, a broader picture of what 332 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.519 we're talking about here, but also potential options how to 333 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.799 mitigate streats from from from from such operations. You know, 334 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.000 if you don't know, if we call it COVID action 335 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.319 and you say, well, it's not COVID action because X, 336 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.079 Y and Z, let's send the law enforcement or let's 337 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:37.039 send the militaries in operation people to do this, because 338 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.079 it's not really intelligence. Well that's a problem too, right, 339 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.720 because now we're separating it according to how we understand 340 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.359 COVID action to be, when in reality, our adversaries couldn't 341 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.000 care less whether we have Title ten or Title fifty, 342 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:54.000 you know. So, so I think it's you know, it's 343 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.839 like the rest of the world doesn't operate on our 344 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.640 wavelengths in these terms or in this particular space so 345 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.200 I think we need to be a little bit more 346 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:04.440 open minded about this. 347 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:10.920 Yeah. Yeah, I've had some interesting conversations with people in 348 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.960 India's Special Operations Units, you know, especially when when r 349 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.240 AW is allegedly whacking people in western countries, you know, 350 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:24.279 the big incident in Canada. There's been some rumors about America. 351 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:26.920 I'm like, hey, man, like this is bad news. Like 352 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.480 you can't be just like shooting people in the United States, 353 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:31.920 like it's gonna or Canada. That's going to create a 354 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.200 huge international blowback. And they just kind of shrugg like 355 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:37.480 it doesn't it doesn't resonate the same to them. The like, 356 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:39.680 So what you guys tried to sanction us in the eighties, 357 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:44.759 how'd that go for you? You know, it's just seen 358 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:46.359 through a completely different lens. 359 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.039 Yeah yeah, it's almost like baiting. You said, what are 360 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:49.880 you going to do about it? 361 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:50.880 Yeah? 362 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.319 Yeah, yeah, And it's essentially it's not just I mean, 363 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:57.640 there's how dare you tell us what to do if 364 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.200 you're not doing it yourself? You know. 365 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:00.480 So there's all the these things. 366 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.359 You know, we're talking about COVID action and attacking ships 367 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:05.799 and you know, killing people in boats. But at the 368 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.279 same time we're telling others, oh, you know, human rights 369 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:11.440 violations and violations of international laws. 370 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:14.440 The way the way they perceive it is that we're 371 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.920 harboring Calistani terrorists on our soil. So it's legit, you know, 372 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.039 but that's how they view it. 373 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.519 Yeah, okay, this is going. Yeah. 374 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.039 So let's if only to sort of like juxtapose the 375 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.640 larger conversation about covert operations, I'd like to ask each 376 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.039 of you about sort of your your areas of specialty. 377 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.279 Rory about the UK and Magna about the US approach. 378 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.720 And Rory, when I was reading your chapter about the 379 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:47.839 UK approach to covert action, you know what actually kind 380 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.319 of jumped right out at me. Your conclusion is very 381 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.519 similar to I have you ever seen the documentary The 382 00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:01.400 Mayfair Set. Nuh, you should. It's a Robbert Curtis documentary, 383 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:07.799 and he concludes that the British used the sas to 384 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.839 sort of keep the empire going in a more covert 385 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:15.680 and discreete manner as it was kind of imploding on itself, 386 00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:20.160 and during a time of social turmoil and rising leftist 387 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:24.039 sentiments in the UK, that this was seen as sort 388 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:27.640 of like a callback to the nights of the roundtable 389 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.759 sort of mythology that you have this small group of 390 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:33.880 tough men that will go out and do this. But 391 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.440 you mentioned in your chapter about how COVID action was 392 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:41.200 used as sort of a coping mechanism as the British 393 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:43.839 Empire was sort of collapsing inward on itself. 394 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.440 That's entirely it. And I can't remember if I included 395 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.519 the quote in the chapter or not, but there was 396 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:53.480 a wonderful line where it was end of the end 397 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:55.519 of the Cold War, so you know, as you know, 398 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.240 exidential crisis for intelligence agencies in the West Water. What 399 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.799 are we doing now? What are we for? And the 400 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.759 Queen Elizabeth's private secretary went to visit the chief of 401 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:12.839