1 00:00:19,359 --> 00:00:22,679 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,000 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist, 3 00:00:27,359 --> 00:00:32,159 and your experience shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. As always, 4 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,159 you can email the show at radio at the Federalist 5 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,359 dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, make 6 00:00:39,399 --> 00:00:42,039 sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and of 7 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:46,039 course the premium version of our website as well. Our 8 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:50,359 guest today is John Hart, CEO of Government spending tracker 9 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,479 Open the Books. As The Federalist reported this week, Open 10 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,799 the Book's deep dive into a Department of Health and 11 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,880 Human Services documents shows an explosion in state administered Medicaid 12 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,519 payments to in home service provider personal assistant. Those areas 13 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,280 a surging industry fraud with fraud. John, thank you so 14 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,000 much for joining us. I know you have been extremely 15 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:18,799 busy of late. 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: Well, Matt, thank you so much for having me on again. 17 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,519 And unfortunately it is a very deep pool. 18 00:01:24,439 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: Of waste that we have to dive in, but we're 19 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:27,879 glad to. 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 2: Get the scuba gre on and shine a light in 21 00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:33,239 these dark crevices of the federal bureocracy. 22 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got some sea creatures, some real leviahs going 23 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:37,879 down there. 24 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,159 Speaker 3: If we could go with this analogy all day, I 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:40,879 think we could. 26 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: But monstrosities, yeah, no doubt. You know the area that 27 00:01:46,079 --> 00:01:51,120 I think is just amazing. Payouts to personal assistance services 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:57,120 have ballooned nationally between twenty and eighteen and twenty twenty four. 29 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,959 Over that seven year period. It's amazing what you folks 30 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:04,159 have found. Tell us a little bit about your findings 31 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,719 and where all of this information is coming from. 32 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 33 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:10,719 Speaker 2: Well, well, first of all, I give a lot of 34 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,479 credit to DHS. They dropped an unprecedented amount of data 35 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,080 to help with public transparency a few few weeks ago, 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,240 and it included two hundred and seventy million payments made 37 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,840 to Medicaid from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty four. So 38 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:28,639 we did a big review of that, and there's different 39 00:02:28,719 --> 00:02:30,960 entities have been looking at this. Doctor Oz has done 40 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,759 a great job of, you know, drilling down into California 41 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:36,840 and he's been very very outspoken in those areas. But 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,759 one of the unusual cases or states and case studies 43 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,159 we found is Pennsylvania. We found that that Pennsylvania's Personal 44 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,840 assistant service received a more than ten thousand percent increase 45 00:02:50,439 --> 00:02:51,719 since twenty eighteen. 46 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:52,719 Speaker 1: Just amazing. 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: Either there was a ten thousand percent increase in demand 48 00:02:56,879 --> 00:02:59,560 or people figured out how to gain the system and 49 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,639 understand so that this big opening left for fraudsters was 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,280 exploited in very grotesque ways. And you're and your reported 51 00:03:08,319 --> 00:03:11,840 a great job of really highlighting you know, one of 52 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,800 those schemes, which was a mL Patel. He was charged 53 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,400 with wirefraud, you know, fifty nine year old who milked 54 00:03:19,439 --> 00:03:22,400 billions out of out of the Medicaid system by setting 55 00:03:22,439 --> 00:03:27,360 up essentially ghost home health care services. And that was interesting, 56 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,240 is you know, this is this is the home health 57 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,039 issue is something that you know, I remember when I 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,360 worked for Coburn in the House and the Senate. This 59 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,080 was this is a known problem for twenty five thirty 60 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:42,080 years and longer. And so we really have to step 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,439 back because there's there's so much detail in our report 62 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:50,240 and what you know, uh, doctor Oz is highlighting And 63 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,080 the real question is why why have we set up 64 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,639 a system that simply invites people to defraud it to 65 00:03:57,719 --> 00:03:59,919 the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars a year, 66 00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:03,319 and and and the and the answer really is that 67 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,879 the incentive structure is really set up to be defrauded. 68 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:08,599 And you know, as I always talk about the Milton 69 00:04:08,639 --> 00:04:11,800 Friedman box, you know, there's four ways to spend money. 70 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:14,960 You spend money on yourself, you spend your money on 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,839 someone else, or someone else's money on yourself. But the 72 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,480 least efficient of those four is you spend someone else's 73 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,720 money on someone else. And government that is that that's 74 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,879 what government does. And so the reason we have a 75 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,920 constitution that limited the size of the scope of government 76 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,480 is because the founders, who are very learned people in 77 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:39,519 touch with reality, understood that the incentive structures within government 78 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:44,319 were always going to be susceptible to misbehavior, corruption, fraud, 79 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:46,959 and that's why they wanted to limit the size of 80 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,839 government and concentrate it in the hands of we the people, 81 00:04:50,879 --> 00:04:54,000 and keep it closest to the people they represented, particularly 82 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,079 the states. And so instead of instead of following that example, 83 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,399 we've allowed the administrative state to believe and over the 84 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:04,199 past hundred years, so now we have these massive, gargantuan 85 00:05:04,319 --> 00:05:07,680 federal agencies and then we wonder why there's so much 86 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,759 fraud and and so I think it's I really commend 87 00:05:10,759 --> 00:05:15,079 the administration for shining a light on this, and you know, 88 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,160 for the President to elevate jd Vance's you know, as 89 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:22,560 as the anti fraud person in chief, if you will, 90 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:26,040 And and so that's that's it's an important step because 91 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,360 the but but it sort of raises the question of well, 92 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,720 you can you can only go so far getting rid 93 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,319 of the fraud. You have to you have to use 94 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,600 the debate about the fraud to really tackle the systemic 95 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,439 problem we have, which is again these massive entitlement programs 96 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,959 that that I believe are too they're too big to succeed. 97 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,839 We have we have a federal government that is too 98 00:05:46,879 --> 00:05:50,560 big to succeed. And yes, we need to go after 99 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,800 the fraud, we need to eliminate it. But in the 100 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,879 process of doing that, I hope we get to this 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,720 bigger conversation of how are we really going to get 102 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,439 our get our arms wrapped around on the safety net 103 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,720 problem we have that's the cause of our unsustainable debt 104 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,279 and deficits, which is a threat to our national and 105 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:09,879 economic security as a country. 106 00:06:10,199 --> 00:06:12,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do too, John, you mentioned it before, But 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,240 I mean, this is something we have been dealing with 108 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,360 for a long time, and no surprise, you know, since 109 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:24,399 we have seen the rapid expansion of the administrative state, 110 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,680 the bureaucratic state, from the Wilson era of course, going 111 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,480 all the way back to the turn of the twentieth century. 112 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,519 But you know, we've talked about this before. I grew 113 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,639 up in Wisconsin and there was a senator there maybe 114 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:47,120 the last Democrat who was conscientious about government spending. His 115 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,240 name was William Proxmyer. He used to have the Golden 116 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:57,600 Fleece Awards talking about wasteful and fraudulent, abusive spending, some 117 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,319 of the worst examples of that of all time. And 118 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,040 you know that was an award that he gave out 119 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:10,079 from seventy five to the late eighties. We are still 120 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,959 dealing with that, and look at what is happening in 121 00:07:13,279 --> 00:07:16,759 Minneapolis and Minnesota these days, and that is just the 122 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,560 tip of the iceberg. So do you think we really 123 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:23,399 are at a point now to finally deal with the 124 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:29,759 systemic problems of the massive welfare give outs and how 125 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,399 the incentives work to incentivize fraud. 126 00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:35,879 Speaker 3: Yeah. 127 00:07:35,879 --> 00:07:37,959 Speaker 2: Look, you know, I'm always a glass half full person. 128 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,079 I'm always optimistic about how these you know, findings can 129 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,839 lead to bigger systemic reform and part of the reason 130 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:48,000 I'm optimistic is this is part of my lived experience. 131 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: This isn't sort of happy talk, pie in the sky thinking. 132 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,319 Speaker 2: And you know, back back in the you know, when 133 00:07:54,319 --> 00:07:56,600 Comberan was in the Senate, we went after the famous 134 00:07:56,639 --> 00:08:00,199 Bridge to Nowhere earmark, you know, in two thousand and five, 135 00:08:00,439 --> 00:08:03,959 and he lost that vote eighty two to fifteen, by 136 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,160 sixty seven votes. 137 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 3: So you know, he was he was quote. 138 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,959 Speaker 2: You know, blown out by the ear Mark caucus. 139 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:14,199 Speaker 3: But that that defeat really set us up for victory. 140 00:08:14,399 --> 00:08:18,879 Speaker 2: And what we saw was, you know, we won that battle, 141 00:08:19,079 --> 00:08:20,879 or it lost the battle, but we ended up winning 142 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:24,399 the war because it galvanized public support. And the argument 143 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:26,360 we made at the time is that earmarks are the 144 00:08:26,399 --> 00:08:30,480 gateway drug to Washington spending addiction. And in order to 145 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:33,960 in order to really get things done within our system, 146 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,480 you have to be willing to make incremental wins and 147 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:42,200 taking incremental gains. Now getting rid of fraud itself. It's 148 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,399 an enormous We're talking way more than the ear mark problem. 149 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,799 You know, we're talking in the hundreds of billions of dollars. 150 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:49,399 Speaker 3: You know, the. 151 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: GAO estimates the federal government loses between two hundred and 152 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,320 thirty three billion and five hundred and twenty billion in 153 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,279 fraud every year. So it's a massive problem. But even 154 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,799 that's only about a third of our of our deficit spending. 155 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,159 And so my hope is that as as we you know, 156 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,080 talk about these individual examples that you highlighted in your 157 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,960 in your story, you know, the case of Pennsylvania, and 158 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,279 we give people the big picture look at the scope 159 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,320 of medicaid payments, and you know, we also described how 160 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,159 medicaid payments have gone from about one hundred and ten 161 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,440 billion dollars since twenty eighteen two one hundred and eighty 162 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,600 five billion, but the number of claims has been you know, 163 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,399 actually less roughly the same. So we've seen the you 164 00:09:31,639 --> 00:09:35,120 all throughout government, you see these big deltas where you know, 165 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,320 the numbers of claims tend to be the same, but 166 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,519 then the spending is way way up. And so again 167 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,440 part of the explanation is that it's just fraudulent people 168 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,480 figure out how to game the system, because we've created 169 00:09:48,519 --> 00:09:53,159 a system that invites itself to be gained. And so 170 00:09:53,279 --> 00:09:57,720 I am helpful that that, you know, Vice President, other 171 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:02,200 people who are taking this problem seriously will understand that, 172 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,399 you know, it's not enough to. 173 00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: Just talk about the fraud. We need to deal with 174 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,559 the systemic problem. And the other thing that. 175 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,279 Speaker 2: People will tell you privately that they'll very rarely admit 176 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,360 on the record is that most well, I'm not going 177 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:18,519 to say most, I'm going to say many, many members 178 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:21,039 and many very senior people in administration understand. 179 00:10:21,919 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 3: They agree with everything we're saying right now. 180 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:27,159 Speaker 2: In other words, they understand that there's not enough fraud 181 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:30,240 in the system to really fix the entitlement problem. But 182 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,399 they believe, and I think correctly, that the public will 183 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:37,120 not trust them or anyone in Washington to fix the 184 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,240 really big problems if you're not willing to fix the 185 00:10:40,279 --> 00:10:43,480 little problems or the small ms. And it's and it's 186 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,480 it's a biblical principles. Whoever is faithful with a little 187 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,919 will be faithful with much. Whoever is dishonest with a 188 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,440 little will be dishonest with much. And so you have 189 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,840 to win people's trust and confidence by dealing with things 190 00:10:55,879 --> 00:10:59,279 like earmarks, by dealing with things like the stupidity of 191 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,960 the examples that we highlighted in Pennsylvania, and then you 192 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,039 set yourself up to really make the big reforms, and 193 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,440 you'll have a constituency of change. 194 00:11:10,159 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 3: Ready to back you up with those really hard votes. 195 00:11:14,159 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: One of the biggest problems has been forever is that 196 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,639 there's an acceptance of this right. I mean, you have 197 00:11:21,879 --> 00:11:26,200 not only lawmakers, but a jaded American public. They're like, well, 198 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,279 I guess that's just part of a deal. And that's 199 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:33,399 you know, that's what surrounds that's what you get when 200 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:37,320 you have corruption basically, and laziness as part of the 201 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,679 corruption as well. But a lot of people are making 202 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,279 a lot of money off of this failed, fraudulent system 203 00:11:44,799 --> 00:11:49,960 you mentioned. You know, this is not just a Pennsylvania problem, 204 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,559 although the issue is obviously very big, which happens to 205 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,679 be doctor Oz's home state, if you will, at least 206 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,360 it was when he was running for Senate back in 207 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,360 twenty twenty two. But you know, you look at New 208 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,600 York and you point this out in your report. This 209 00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:10,039 is I think something that should raise some eyebrows and concerns. 210 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,679 Certainly in New York. The elderly and disabled may hire 211 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:19,120 friends and family to serve as in home personal care assistance. 212 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,320 You know, those who take care of the elderly and disabled. 213 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,759 As we mentioned provide you know, basic services for them. 214 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,399 That's big Medicaid payout area funded by taxpayer money, Lots 215 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,600 and lots. The scheme is especially popular in New York State, 216 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:40,480 which has seen seventy two point seven billion dollars in 217 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,879 such spending from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty four, according 218 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:51,080 to the OTB analysis. Now that's a lot of money. 219 00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:57,879 And there are just egregious, notable examples of fraud in 220 00:12:57,879 --> 00:13:02,720 that system. So why do we have that kind of 221 00:13:02,799 --> 00:13:06,279 system if it is just so tied in, it's just 222 00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:08,720 so Yeah, fraud is so intrinsic to it. 223 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, again it goes back to what's what I 224 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:12,279 was just saying. 225 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: I think the way to change it is literally doing 226 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:17,120 what we're doing right now, is because we're we're highlighting 227 00:13:17,159 --> 00:13:19,840 the examples. You know, in our report we talked about 228 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,360 you know, there's one hundred and twenty million dollar kickback 229 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,960 scam with something called the Royal Edate daycare Facility and 230 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,559 Flushing Queens where you it actually bribed patience to enroll. 231 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:35,279 Speaker 3: And so it's sort of different layers of fraud. It's like, 232 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,200 it's absurd the degrees people go to. 233 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: But they when they're making When the incentives are there 234 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,080 to make millions of dollars, people will do extraordinary things 235 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,039 to get that money, and they do and when they 236 00:13:48,039 --> 00:13:50,080 feel like they're going to get away with it. And 237 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,320 so simply by doing the reporting, doing the oversight, capturing 238 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,879 the data that we do and then people like you 239 00:13:56,919 --> 00:14:00,360 actually you know, publishing, that's that's part of the process 240 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:01,559 of of. 241 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: Of fixing it. And you have to get people, you know. 242 00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: The thing The thing with with you know, as you 243 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,480 know well, is that the art of getting things done 244 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,519 and change is getting people mad about the right things. 245 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:18,679 It's getting them really focused in and uh animated about 246 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:21,879 about issues that are really going to affect their lives. 247 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:23,519 Speaker 3: And they do affect their lives. 248 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: And when you when you're competing with all this other 249 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:30,919 noise and nonsense on on TikTok or whatever, uh, you 250 00:14:31,039 --> 00:14:33,120 have to be able to cut through. And I give 251 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:35,080 I get you know, Nick Shirley has done a brilliant 252 00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:39,960 job obviously in Minnesota with the quote leering centers. 253 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,039 Speaker 1: They have a lot to leer in Minnesota, yes and so, and. 254 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 3: That exists all over the country. 255 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:48,879 Speaker 2: But it's one thing to sort of talk about it 256 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:52,120 abstractly it's another thing to go in and document. 257 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: And that's and again that's part of. 258 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,879 Speaker 2: Why it was so valuable for DHS to do to 259 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,960 do the data done, because in some ways they're all 260 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:03,159 like admitting, look, we know this problem is bigger then 261 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,360 we can. We don't even have the staff to understand 262 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,519 and get our arms wrapped around it. And by the way, 263 00:15:08,559 --> 00:15:10,679 that was the whole impetus too, of the Cobra and 264 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,080 Obama bill to put all government spending online. We wanted 265 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,360 to create an ecosystem that would crowdsource oversight because the 266 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:22,360 task was so enormous that our oversight team in Washington 267 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,559 couldn't possibly understand every area of government. 268 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: That there was to identify. 269 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,799 Speaker 2: And so that's so that's really how change happened. So 270 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:36,080 I am optimistic because when when normal people see this information, 271 00:15:36,159 --> 00:15:38,639 they get their hands on it, they hear about it, 272 00:15:38,799 --> 00:15:40,960 they you know, they kick the tires on the data 273 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,480 and realize, wow, these people really are are authentic. They're 274 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:47,120 dealing in an evidence based world. They're not dealing with 275 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,480 simply hyperbole and propaganda and nonsense. 276 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:52,279 Speaker 3: And you can go look up the data yourself and 277 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:53,480 double check it all. 278 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:57,279 Speaker 2: Then then you start to build momentum, and and you 279 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,000 know there's there's plenty of periods in our history really 280 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,679 when that succeeded, you know, the Tea Party movement. You know, 281 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,720 we successfully reduce spending for at least a time. 282 00:16:06,919 --> 00:16:07,919 Speaker 3: And I think that. 283 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:13,519 Speaker 2: Can be that constituency is ready to be reanimated and redeployed, 284 00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:15,399 if you will, for this problem. 285 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: I think so. I think people are very angry about 286 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:26,759 what is happening in Minnesota. It's hard to miss that story, 287 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:30,480 even as the accomplice media has done its best to 288 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:34,440 shift attention or not cover that story. But this is 289 00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:37,320 this is something that's you know, just bursting at the seams. 290 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,120 As a matter of fact, related to that story in Minnesota, 291 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:50,159 you have the headline today that Governor Tim Walls Democrat. 292 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,320 Minnesota Governor Tim Walls laid out his anti fraud legislative 293 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,320 package one day after the White House paused two hundred 294 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,159 and fifteen nine million dollars in federal medicaid payments to 295 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,240 the state until a comprehensive action plan is laid out 296 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:11,160 to fight fraud. That from CBS News reporting. Let me 297 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:16,440 ask you this, though, John Waltz, dealing with fraud isn't 298 00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:21,440 Tim Walls pushing anti fraud measures, kind of like JB. 299 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,440 Pritzker handing out diet tips. 300 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I think that's I think that's true. Yeah yeah, Look. 301 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 3: He had he you know, he had his moment. If 302 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,480 he was serious about this, this never would have become 303 00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:33,000 a story. 304 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: And and in Minnesota, I think, sadly, the the the 305 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,599 entire system was gained and rigged to be exploited and 306 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,599 used as a patronage vehicle. And that's you know, he's paid, 307 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,640 He's paying the price for that, and he deserves to. 308 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,519 But let that, let let that be a cautionary tale 309 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:55,880 for anyone, any governor, any public official around the country 310 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,200 that if you play games with this, that the technology 311 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,519 is moving so far asked that you are. 312 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,839 Speaker 3: Not going to be able to keep this hidden. 313 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: And the Minnesota case was interesting too because I'm you know, 314 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:08,240 I'm on the board of a group called the State 315 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:09,640 Financial Officers Foundation. 316 00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 3: And one of the one of the really. 317 00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: Dumb things Minnesota did is get they got rid of 318 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,279 their Treasurer's office. You know, I'm typically ninety nine percent 319 00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:20,759 of the time, I'm in favor of getting rid of offices, no. 320 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:21,759 Speaker 3: Matter no matter what they're called. 321 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: But when when you if you particularly if you don't 322 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,720 have great transparency laws, the treasure or financial controller can 323 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:34,599 be the last backstop and protector and make sure that 324 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,599 these things don't happen. And then when you get rid 325 00:18:36,599 --> 00:18:40,279 of these internal checks and balances, you again, you just 326 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,920 you create, you create a system of opacity and. 327 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,039 Speaker 3: Darkness where where bad things are more likely to happen. 328 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 2: And you know, Governor Walls had plenty of opportunities to 329 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,799 prevent this and he didn't, and he, in fact, he 330 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,519 you know, facilitated it and exploited it. 331 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: Indeed, our guest today is John Hart, CEO of Government 332 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,160 Spending Tracker. Opened the Books a great report out this week. 333 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,319 You can find it on their website at it is 334 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:10,480 otb dot com. 335 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,319 Speaker 3: Open the books, Yeah, open the books. 336 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: That's right. 337 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: Fash Flag sub stack is where you'll get the most 338 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:17,240 most recent reports. 339 00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's good because you can take a look 340 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,319 and you'll see well presented the charts and the graphs 341 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:29,759 that go along with the explosion of these state operated 342 00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:34,039 medicaid funds that have occurred over a seven year period 343 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:40,039 through twenty twenty four. But you know, first and foremost, 344 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:43,799 I look at the Minnesota case, and it seems like 345 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,400 there's no doubt to me that this was driven in 346 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:52,119 large I shouldn't say large part, but certainly a significant 347 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,920 part of it was driven because of politics. I mean, 348 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,480 this was making sure that can stitch uncs. We're getting 349 00:20:01,799 --> 00:20:05,559 lots and lots of funding so that they could secure votes. 350 00:20:05,599 --> 00:20:08,680 Now they'll tell you something different about that, but that's 351 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,640 what it appears to a lot of Americans, and understandably. So. 352 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,960 So with that said, the question that a lot of 353 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,799 Americans are asking right now, will anybody ever be held 354 00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:24,000 accountable for this or anything for that. 355 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,079 Speaker 3: Matter, Well, I hope so. 356 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,839 Speaker 2: Look, and I think the administration has taking steps obviously 357 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,440 to prosecute fraud more aggressively. 358 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely the right thing to do, and 359 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:34,759 the need. 360 00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: They need to target you know, Republicans and Democrats because 361 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,920 there's no there's no innocent side here. But you know, 362 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,359 we hear a lot about, you know, quote protecting democracy, 363 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,039 but often when it's Democrats seeing it, they just want 364 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:51,839 to protect democrats, not democracy. And I think we're seeing that. 365 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,240 You know, we gave you know, Shapiro's office a chance 366 00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:56,000 to respond and they declined. 367 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: What is that? Why? 368 00:20:58,599 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: Is why is he not willing to give an answer 369 00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:05,960 provide some context to his own constituents. What does that 370 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:07,880 say about his level of respect for the people that 371 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,400 he represents, right, So they deserve to be held account 372 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,720 for that, And that's true of governors in any state. 373 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 4: Does New York City officially have their first free grocery 374 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:26,160 store under mamdannie Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 375 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:29,440 Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between 376 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,880 politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 377 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,160 Gambling website Polymarket opens a free grocery store to enamor 378 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,200 itself with the Mom Donnie administration. So who's really paying 379 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,000 for this free grocery store? Whether it's happening in DC 380 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,200 or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 381 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:44,799 Speaker 1: Be informed. 382 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 4: Check out the Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris 383 00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:50,079 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 384 00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:02,559 Speaker 1: Josh Shapiro. Of course, the Pennsylvania Democrat governor, who has 385 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:08,559 clearly has higher aspirations for higher office, is the answer 386 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:12,119 to that question, and you don't know it directly from 387 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:16,079 him or his office because they refuse to answer these 388 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:22,319 important questions like you know why this category of spending 389 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,759 climb ten thousand percent? I think that's a legitimate question 390 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,960 to ask, and they didn't want to answer it. But 391 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,960 do you think that Josh Shapiro, with his higher political aspirations, 392 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:39,000 doesn't even want to broach the topic, because if he does, 393 00:22:39,599 --> 00:22:42,640 and groups like yours keep digging, it's going to look 394 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:44,480 worse and worse for him. 395 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 396 00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's in his interest and again this 397 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,799 is true for any governor, it's in their interest. 398 00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 3: To get ahead of this. 399 00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:54,319 Speaker 2: And if there was a mistake made, you need to 400 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,880 own it and take responsibility and describe all the ways 401 00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:00,880 you're fixing it. You're not going to be able to 402 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,160 run from it. I mean there's again the technology that's 403 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,680 part of it so exciting. I think we're on the 404 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,680 cusp of a renaissance of citizen led accountability through AI 405 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:14,839 and technology, and we're doing a whole initiative on that 406 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,359 as well. But he's not going to be able to 407 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,400 sweep this under the rug. I mean, it's too big 408 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,680 of a bump. It's a mountain under the rug that 409 00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:25,240 he's going to be tripping over on his way to his. 410 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 3: Campaign for President. 411 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,599 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that, the use of AI 412 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,880 in just a bit, because I think that's fascinating and 413 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,039 as you mentioned, it something that you had opened the 414 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:41,039 books are looking into. But on the radio earlier this week, 415 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:44,319 I was talking about this issue. In fact, we had 416 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:48,039 one of your great researchers on the show in Omaha 417 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,599 to talk a little bit more about the report, and 418 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,440 a caller had some interesting ideas on how to deal 419 00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:00,480 with this fraud. One of the things he had mentioned 420 00:24:01,079 --> 00:24:05,160 and I can't intelligently speak to this because I just 421 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,079 don't know how the system is set up, but he 422 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:15,680 said that we should have specific fraud government fraud courts, 423 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,920 even if you wanted to add waste and keeps in 424 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,480 there as well, but specifically fraud courts like we do 425 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,880 with deportation courts, you know, specifically set up to deal 426 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,160 with this massive problem. Do we have such a thing 427 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,759 anywhere in this country? And what do you think about it? 428 00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:36,960 Do we need such a thing? 429 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: I think that's a I think that's a fantastic idea. 430 00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:42,759 I think it would. I think we need a process. 431 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: To to to expedite the hearings on these issues, but 432 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,279 to also deal with a massive scope of it. I mean, 433 00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:52,279 that's you know, it's clearly an issue with immigration is 434 00:24:52,279 --> 00:24:56,000 there's not there aren't enough people in the system. 435 00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:59,039 Speaker 3: To to you know, deal with all the cases, and 436 00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:01,839 so there are so many. 437 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: Again, it's it's so easy to just it's a mind 438 00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:07,599 numbing amount of waste and fraud that we see. And 439 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,400 so I think that's I think that's a great idea. 440 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:13,680 And again this is where I'm usually non in favor 441 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,359 of more of more offices, but sometimes you know, money 442 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,599 can be spent, well, if you're preventing far more waste 443 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,160 from from happening as a result. 444 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:28,079 Speaker 1: How about some of what we see in for instance, 445 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:34,480 Somalia when opponents are caught engaging about some of that 446 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,440 style of punishment. Well, it is a massive problem and 447 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,599 it's getting bigger. We talk about Minnesota that has been 448 00:25:44,599 --> 00:25:50,319 the spotlight, but there are states where they're going to 449 00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:55,400 make Minnesota look like a piker. California immediately comes to mind. 450 00:25:55,519 --> 00:26:01,000 What have you seen there in terms of medicaid spending growth, 451 00:26:01,519 --> 00:26:05,920 that is to say, this blue state using federal taxpayer 452 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,680 dollars to expand its medicaid programs And what about the 453 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:12,279 fraud there? 454 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? 455 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: I mean yeah, California is, you know, sadly the golden 456 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,599 child of all this. We've seen payments balloon one hundred 457 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:26,279 and twenty seven billion dollars. So and the only state 458 00:26:26,319 --> 00:26:29,799 that's higher with medicaid spending is New York one hundred 459 00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:32,440 and forty two billion. Then Texas at sixty sixty four, 460 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,000 Massachusetts at fifty five, New Jersey forty six. So it's 461 00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:39,160 mostly blue states, but it's a mix of red and 462 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,680 blue based on population. But California has been has been 463 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,279 one of the worst. And again I think with California 464 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,599 in particular, also the home health problem has been has 465 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,240 been out of control there and it's loosening, it's loosening 466 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,799 the requirements, it's making it making it easy for people 467 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:03,400 to sign up. And so I commend you know, doctor 468 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,519 Oz for for really shining the spotlight on the on 469 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:08,799 the California cases because it's, you know, it's one of 470 00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:15,480 the biggest population states and you know, it's a uniparty government, sadly, yeah, 471 00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:18,799 very little internal accountability, and people in California are just 472 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,599 are going crazy at then of wasting fraud we see 473 00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:23,599 in their in their state. 474 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's me I listen, let's give Gavin credit. 475 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:35,799 Gavin Newsom, you know a little bit of sympathy here. 476 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,680 It's very difficult to track this amount of fraud when 477 00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:43,799 you only have a nine to fifty s a t right. 478 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: To commend you for your love, for your compassion. I 479 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,839 think it was nine to sixty. 480 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,839 Speaker 1: Nine mean to undergot him. 481 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,839 Speaker 3: Yes, well, be accurate and open the books. 482 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: Listen, he's just like you and I with his SATs 483 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,640 and so it's difficult to really get into this issue. 484 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,279 You know, I joke around, but you had mentioned before 485 00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:11,480 that Gavin Newsome and Josh Shapiro and any bureaucrat that 486 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:16,200 wants to try to hide this. It's getting increasingly more difficult, 487 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:20,440 not just because of the great you know, shoe leather 488 00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:25,519 work that we've seen in Minnesota by an independent reporter. 489 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,200 You're not getting this from the corporate news outlets, which 490 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,720 is again sad, but now you're going to get something 491 00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:35,519 that has been in the works for a long time. 492 00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:40,680 It's called citizen journalism. It goes alongside with independent reporters. 493 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,599 But these are people who are just concerned about spending 494 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,720 in their government. These are the people that attend local 495 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,359 school board and county board meetings. And hearings and they're 496 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,119 getting that information that some of these folks are really 497 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,000 getting good at tracking that. But now AI is here 498 00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:05,559 artificial intelligence that can do all this stuff in a flash. Right, 499 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,440 let me ask you are you are you using artificial 500 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,880 intelligence for this? And is this truly the next wave 501 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:14,759 of exposing waste, fraud and abuse in government? 502 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: No, Matt, thanks for the quat Absolutely so yeah, I think, 503 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:19,440 you know, let's step back and think about you know, 504 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,200 people are right to be very concerned about AI and 505 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,960 the use of the technology. But you know, I can 506 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,839 tell you that there is no technology in history that's 507 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,039 ever had a reverse gear. 508 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 3: And so you know. 509 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: This this bus is moving. So the question is how 510 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,599 do you steer it? And how can we steer it 511 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,559 in such a way that really advances human freedom and flourishing. 512 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,799 And so what we've what we've done in Open the 513 00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:45,920 Books is you know, we've been collecting government spending data 514 00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:49,680 at all levels of government for over a decade and 515 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,160 that's state, federal, and local. And again we were the 516 00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:55,039 Open the Books work was enabled in part by the 517 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,359 cobn Obama Bill that was passed twenty years ago. But 518 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,160 Adam Ajiski the founder wisely figured out that hey, let's 519 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,559 expand that to get to get stay in. 520 00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: Local and so so I've. 521 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,759 Speaker 2: Done all you know in the inter years when I 522 00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:11,960 left Coburn and i'm, you know, just decided to take 523 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,400 over from Adam after you passed away. At opened the 524 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,680 books because I work with with Silicon Valley companies and 525 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,240 nonprofits and other other other clients, and I learned that 526 00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:26,920 the secret between A behind AI is an assembly line 527 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,880 of data entry. You need three things to make AI work. 528 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,359 You need big data, you need an algorithm, and you 529 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,480 need processing power. 530 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,519 Speaker 3: So it opened the books. You know, data is like 531 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,880 enriched uranium. You know, you can use it for peaceful 532 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,680 purposes or destructive purposes, and we use it for peasable purposes. 533 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,000 So it's a very very powerful tool. 534 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: So what we're doing, uh, is we're trying to create 535 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,720 what I call the money the moneyball of politics. 536 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,319 Speaker 3: I don't know if you're a baseball fan or if. 537 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,279 Speaker 2: You know the moneyball, right, Okay, so the genius for 538 00:30:57,359 --> 00:30:59,279 people that don't know it. You know, moneyball is about 539 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:01,160 the Oakland a and how they. 540 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,359 Speaker 3: And Brad Pit, isn't it and Brad Pitt. 541 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, Brad wasn't that he was really mean. It's about 542 00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:09,720 the general manager and how they realized how to use 543 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,480 metrics to the advantage of kind of an underdog small 544 00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:16,599 market team. And the genius of what they did is 545 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,000 they didn't go out and do this sort of fake 546 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,160 black magic. Hey, let's make up all these new metrics. Instead, 547 00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:26,559 they looked at data, and they looked at metrics that 548 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,680 were always there but never applied, and they figured out 549 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,480 how to apply them and make the small market team 550 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,640 way more successful than people thought was possible. And so 551 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,519 what AI can do is you take the open the 552 00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:42,839 book's data set and then you merge it with other 553 00:31:43,039 --> 00:31:46,160 publicly available data sets and some that aren't publicly available, 554 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,559 things like measuring economic performance, you know, policy outcomes on 555 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,720 wage growth, education attainment. And then you train an algorithm 556 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,559 to identify the relationships and the structure and the patterns 557 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:04,960 in the data, and then you do pattern prediction. So 558 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,480 in other words, it's pattern recognition pattern prediction. And as 559 00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:10,200 you put an AI can do all this stuff in 560 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,759 an instant whereas it would take us, you know, twenty 561 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,319 years ago in the Senate, you know, weeks to do 562 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,039 these Excel spreadsheet projects and compare the numbers, and there's 563 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:21,920 a lot you can do with Excel, but but you 564 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,519 run into kind of a time crunch. 565 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: There's just too much data. 566 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,079 Speaker 2: And so what we're doing is what we're partnering with 567 00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:31,160 with other with other groups, and particularly there's a guy 568 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,079 named Paul Allen, not not the Microsoft founder Paul Allen, 569 00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:36,759 but a guy named Paul Allen who is one of 570 00:32:36,759 --> 00:32:39,920 the co founders of ancestry dot com again, a wildly 571 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,599 successful platform where they captured all the genealogy data to 572 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,200 help people discover their story. 573 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:49,759 Speaker 1: And this isn't the guy that calls the Minnesota Vikings 574 00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:50,559 games right. 575 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 2: Now, that's not all right, and so and so what 576 00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:56,519 we're what we're trying to do is, you know, the 577 00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:59,839 way to thwart again, people are right to be worried 578 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,400 of AI and a surveillance state where you give, you 579 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,839 give state, the state the power of this technology they're 580 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,519 going to use to conduct surveillance. Well, the best way 581 00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:13,359 to thwart a surveillance state is with a surveillance citizenry. 582 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,160 And so we're trying to create what we call superintelligent 583 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,160 citizens where we give we don't ask citizens to delegate 584 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,440 their power and authority to a mysterious technology. Instead we 585 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,519 entrust them with the power of that technology. So a 586 00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:29,519 case study is, let's let's say you're at a town 587 00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,440 hall meeting. You can you can take your phone and 588 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,839 we're and we're building an app to do this where 589 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:37,440 you can hold it up and do a live visual 590 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,640 recognition on the politician speaking and then capture their face 591 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,839 and then and you can immediately get a report of 592 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,720 all the contradictions and what they're saying in their voting record, 593 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,359 in the of their of their legislation, and you get 594 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,400 the super intelligent report literally in your palm to make 595 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,359 you a better citizen. And and that's that that that 596 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,319 technology exists, and so that's that's really what we're going 597 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:05,599 to be focused on, especially this year and in the 598 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,719 near future, or building these tools again to create to 599 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:15,599 effectively give you know, every citizen their own terminator, robot 600 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,039 or or special investigator by their side so that they 601 00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:21,239 can be they can they can have the power to 602 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,400 hold government accountable. 603 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,079 Speaker 3: And it's it's very exciting. What and again, when when 604 00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:26,719 the that's. 605 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,199 Speaker 2: Why transparency laws are so important, Matt, because when when 606 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,599 the data is out there and searchable, then it can 607 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,480 be used to teach tools like the ones we're building 608 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,239 where in a free society, the challenge is you want 609 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,559 the center of gravity and the authority to always be 610 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,000 with we, the people. That's the whole that was the 611 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,599 whole vision of purpose of our constitution. It's a document 612 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:51,800 fundamentally about limitation of power. It's not about creating a 613 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,079 permission structure. It's about creating a limitation structure so that 614 00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:59,559 you ensure that the electorate has control over the government. 615 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,320 And technology is one of the ways that we can 616 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,800 make that make sure that happens and is protected for 617 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,039 future generations. 618 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: That's exactly what you were doing with the Coburn and 619 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,000 the exactly Obama Coburn. Bill. I want to ask you 620 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:16,159 that real quick here and then we get back to AI. 621 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,320 But what do you think Barack Obama thinks of his 622 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,400 creation now loath these movies years later because he, I mean, 623 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,239 this was before he was president, Barack Obama, he was 624 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,679 a senator, worked alongside a very fiscal conservative. You've talked 625 00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:37,679 about this before. The aspiring Barack Obama, who had aspirations 626 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,519 for the presidency, saw this as a great issue to 627 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,519 run on that he was going to be the transparency guy. 628 00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:46,800 But I wonder what he thinks about it all low 629 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,960 these many years later. 630 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think, And I'm just I'm just 631 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,440 going to do a sort of an ideological psychological assessment 632 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,239 off the cuff here. I think I think people who 633 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:05,280 are like offically progressive are sort of can be double 634 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,599 minded between On one hand, you want to be a 635 00:36:08,639 --> 00:36:12,199 person who really submits and bends the knee to an 636 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,480 evidence based conversation. But if the evidence based conversation it 637 00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:20,559 becomes an existential threat to your worldview, then people kind 638 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:24,599 of waffle on their on their belief and evidence based conversation. 639 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,519 I think the modern Democratic Party is has been largely 640 00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:32,679 taken over by what I would call progressive fundamentalists and 641 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,280 which you know, we kind of we've seen on display 642 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,000 at the State of the Union and other places. But sure, 643 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,599 I think I think they're misaligned with the country. I 644 00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:46,199 think I think the average kind of person is this 645 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,199 is a no brain or conversation that they would of 646 00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:50,719 course we want more transparency. Of course we believe that 647 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,679 we should have an evidence based, fact based conversation about politics. 648 00:36:55,519 --> 00:36:58,880 And to me, that's an unstoppable political argument. It's it's 649 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,280 an unstoppable force, and so I think I think Obama 650 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,599 if he's you know, if you're really worried about either 651 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,559 party being taken over by authoritarians, the number one thing 652 00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:14,639 you should support is transparency, and then an evidence based 653 00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:20,599 conversation is it's impossible for bad actors to really take quote, 654 00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:25,039 takeover in a situation where you have an electorate. 655 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,199 Speaker 3: Armed with the truth and armed with data. 656 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,039 Speaker 2: And so I would hope that's he looks back at 657 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,119 this and thinks, gosh, this is pretty inconvenient for a 658 00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:35,519 lot of my favorite causes because the data is coming 659 00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:38,639 in in such a way it's not very favorable to 660 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:39,920 things like Obamacare. 661 00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 3: I think. 662 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 2: I think if you want to have an evidence based 663 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,480 conversation about Obamacare, it's going to be hard to defend 664 00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:49,480 the outcomes of that policy. But if you really believe 665 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,960 in democracy and not just democrats, then I think you 666 00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:56,000 have to be excited and very, very optimistic about what 667 00:37:56,079 --> 00:37:58,159 AI and technology is going to do for the future. 668 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh, I agree. I just think that they're on 669 00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:04,960 the left right now, and I think that's a great 670 00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:11,880 term progressive fundamentalists. You know, these are folks who are 671 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,960 at war with reality. We certainly see it in a 672 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:17,280 number of issues and I need to go over them now. 673 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,880 But that's what we're we're at in politics. But the 674 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,920 numbers don't lie. You are a guy who you know, 675 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,760 tries to step back from the rhetoric and the politics 676 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,119 and just focus on the numbers. That's that's your job. 677 00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:36,239 That's what you do. And as far as the the 678 00:38:36,599 --> 00:38:40,519 technologies that you're using AI, that's you know, that is 679 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,599 as you say, it's it's it's in a critical area 680 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:49,960 to make citizens even more part of you know, the 681 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,039 the process. That said, you still have to go through 682 00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:58,800 the human work of going after the records and you know, 683 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,519 getting the getting the information to put that information into 684 00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:07,840 the system. I don't know if that will ever change. 685 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,840 But where do you see this battle going? You know, 686 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,920 in the future, But where do you see this a 687 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:15,880 decade from now? 688 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well I'll talk I'll talk about where I see 689 00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:21,159 it hopefully in the next in the next couple of 690 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,400 weeks and then and then we'll kind of we'll touch 691 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:24,000 on a decade. 692 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,599 Speaker 3: But sure, I'll tell you that there is. 693 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,039 Speaker 2: There's a there's a move, there's a move afoot and 694 00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:31,559 I hope to have more to share on this very 695 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:35,079 soon to up to do a serious upgrade to our 696 00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:38,400 transparency laws to create what we call real time transparency. 697 00:39:39,159 --> 00:39:41,800 So one of one of the flaws of USA spending 698 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,920 is that there's a there's too long of a delay 699 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,440 between the time money money flows or goes out the 700 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,159 door and by the time it's reported. It can be 701 00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:53,199 thirty days, sixty days, ninety days, six months and what 702 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,400 And the nature of sort of the struggle between against 703 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,559 centralized power and we the people is that you could 704 00:39:59,599 --> 00:40:02,079 have a great law, but then it gets eroded and 705 00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:05,719 degraded over time, and that there's the sort of unglamorous, 706 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,480 un sexy truth about about a free society is you 707 00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:11,679 have to do maintenance, you have to do hygiene, you 708 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,000 have to make sure you go You go through these 709 00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:17,599 laws every every couple of decades and upgrade them. So 710 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,559 right now we need an upgrade in our transparency laws 711 00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:24,000 because the federal agencies that come up with all kinds 712 00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,360 of new ways to not share the data. So there's 713 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,400 a there's a move and members I'm working with to 714 00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:34,639 do a new bill that would effectively demand and require 715 00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:37,960 real time transparency, so that that's that could be a 716 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,559 revolutionary step of making sure again, making it impossible for 717 00:40:42,639 --> 00:40:46,559 any future regime to play hide the ball with the 718 00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:49,880 American people and the more. 719 00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 3: Again, this is. 720 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,519 Speaker 2: All so much of politics as a center of again, 721 00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:58,000 a center of gravity question, because you know, one of 722 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,119 we're in such a dysfunctional Bible time where people just 723 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,800 congregate in their camp and they don't want to think. 724 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,599 They don't want to listen to evidence. They just want 725 00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:12,119 to Again, the progress progressive fundamentalists, they don't they're not many. 726 00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:15,599 I mean, they're not really interested in reason, they're interested 727 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,119 in evidence. They just want they only want to. 728 00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 3: Hear what's going to agree to their worldview. 729 00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 2: And you know, sadly the same is true on the 730 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,280 right you have people who also are not really willing 731 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,280 to rethink what they what people. I just happen to 732 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,880 think that if you look at the evidence, and I'm 733 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,320 very transparent about my biases, it's it's hard to it's 734 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,599 hard to argue for a bigger government. I think when 735 00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:36,920 you look at the evidence, look at the outcomes, you know, 736 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,800 throw me into that fight, throw me into that briar 737 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,079 pitch with anybody. And so so I'm you know, I'm 738 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,800 very very optimistic about where we could be in ten years. 739 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,119 Because once, once people get a taste of agency and 740 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:53,719 they get a taste of freedom, you want more and 741 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,280 more of it, and and that's that's that's what That's 742 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,800 a beautiful thing of this idea of freedom is that 743 00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:03,000 when you experience it, it becomes part of your life 744 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,239 and you realize, Wow, I actually do have the ability 745 00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:07,320 to hold my elected officials accountable. 746 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,519 Speaker 3: My voice does matter. 747 00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 2: The extra the extra thirty seconds I might spend on 748 00:42:12,159 --> 00:42:15,519 one of our apps or our website, I feel smarter, 749 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:18,559 I feel more equipped. I want more of that and 750 00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:20,559 that and that whole vision of you know, it's not 751 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,719 about expanding federal agencies. It's about expanding your agency, you know, 752 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,360 and your ability to pursue happiness on your terms and 753 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,519 your ability to hold government accountable. That's that's infectious. That's 754 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,199 that's the essence of being a happy warrior. And when 755 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,760 we make it easier for people to do that, then 756 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,920 we get more of that. 757 00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 3: And it's in you know, Paul Allen has. 758 00:42:41,199 --> 00:42:45,079 Speaker 2: A great analogy he describes that, you know, in our system, 759 00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:48,880 we've allowed these sort of muscles of self governance to atrophy. 760 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,239 And one of the ways to rebuild that is again, 761 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,199 is to do the very things we're doing, you know, 762 00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:57,920 to do these reports, to do these interviews, to do 763 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,639 to build these tools so that when people exercise those 764 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:06,920 muscles of representative government and accountability, they want more of 765 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,400 it and they're more and more equipped to be better citizens. 766 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,480 And you don't have to reach every single person in 767 00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:13,960 the country. If you get if you get ten or 768 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,280 twenty percent of the public engaged, that's more than enough 769 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,599 to completely change the direction of the country. And so 770 00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:23,679 that's that's that's why I'm optimistic that in ten years 771 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,480 we could be having a different conversation. And I'll just 772 00:43:27,519 --> 00:43:29,719 I'll throw one other just historic analogy I think is 773 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,519 really I've been studying the uh, the history of leeches, okay, 774 00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:38,639 and the use of leeches in medicine because interesting. 775 00:43:40,039 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 3: Society. 776 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 2: Well it'll it'll make sense to you, because every every 777 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,800 generation we look back at something we did and fifteen 778 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,960 hundred years ago and think, how could we have been 779 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,159 so stupid to think X. 780 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,320 Speaker 3: Y, and Z made sense? 781 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 2: But one of the things we look back on is 782 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,239 the uses of leeches in medicine. That was that was 783 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,920 a rage for centuries where people thought, oh, you know, 784 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,840 if you have any disease, throw some leeches on it 785 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,360 and suck the bad stuff out, and you're going to 786 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,559 get better. Like there's an intuit It makes sense on 787 00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:08,280 an intuitive level, until you learn through science that actually 788 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:09,920 that doesn't help. In fact, it could make you a 789 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,719 lot worse. But what's interesting about that matter is there's 790 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,559 no there was no magic point when people realized that 791 00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:21,320 was a really stupid practice. It took it took decades. 792 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,679 There's only maybe a fifteen year kind of turning point. 793 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 3: But there was. 794 00:44:26,519 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 2: We got to a point when where that, yeah, that 795 00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:31,480 was clearly just totally rejected. And so I'm convinced there's 796 00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:33,800 a lot of what we do now within public policy 797 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,760 that we will look back on and. 798 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 3: Think, I can't believe we would use those leeches. 799 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,639 Speaker 2: I can't believe we would just do it that way 800 00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:43,280 and didn't understand it didn't make any sense. And the 801 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,719 only way to make that, to make that change happen, 802 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,000 is to get the information out and to be totally 803 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,320 transparent about your worldview, and be transparent and bring people 804 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,239 together who have different perspectives, and simply build a culture 805 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,480 where you bend the knee to the evidence. 806 00:44:59,079 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 3: You just look at it. Okay, what is reality? 807 00:45:01,039 --> 00:45:03,119 Speaker 2: Are we willing to live in a reality based, fact 808 00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:06,199 based world and then let the chips fall where they may? 809 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:07,920 And I think, I think if we do that, we'll 810 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,719 see the leeches fall off, We'll see we'll see the 811 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,360 decline of a lot of really dumb and bad public policy. 812 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,920 But it'll be driven by the electorate. It's not going 813 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,960 to be driven by by sort of an ideological crusader. 814 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,440 It's going to be driven by what is the evidence show, 815 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,639 And that's what the founders believed, and so they were 816 00:45:27,679 --> 00:45:30,320 They were inspired by the Greeks and Romans, and Cicero 817 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,239 famously said in fifty BC, true law is right reason 818 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,320 and agreement with nature. So we know what true law 819 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,960 is like natural law when you merge reason and common 820 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,239 sense with an understanding of nature in the world as 821 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,599 it is. So if you can't understand nature, if you 822 00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:50,559 don't look at evidence, if you don't look at transparent data, 823 00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:56,360 and if we focus on building these institutions, then you 824 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,760 can get to that reality we want to live in. 825 00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:02,480 And so that's what we're just relentlessly focused on. It 826 00:46:02,559 --> 00:46:05,360 up in the books is getting the information out there, 827 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,159 giving people the tools that they deserve to make their 828 00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:13,079 own judgments, and so I'm hopeful about where we're going 829 00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:13,840 to be in ten years. 830 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:20,599 Speaker 1: Well, I know that James Garfield probably hoped that the 831 00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:25,639 medicine would It wasn't leeches, it was dirty fingers that 832 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:26,599 were It's. 833 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:27,280 Speaker 3: Exactly the same era. 834 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, just peaked in about the eighteen fifties, and it 835 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,119 was germ theory that. 836 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,679 Speaker 3: That I was actually talking to. I'll steal this. 837 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 2: I'll give him credit Scott Rasmus and the pollster making 838 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,599 the same same argument you were making about you know, 839 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:47,760 if Garfield his death probably saved millions of lives because 840 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:54,960 he expedited the acceptance of of sterilized medicine. And that's 841 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,679 what we're trying to sterilize our politics. And let's let's 842 00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:01,320 get some of the idiocy and stupidity out of it. 843 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 3: So that we can we can help help people flourish. 844 00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: Well, it is an interesting comparison because as we know, 845 00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:14,119 there are a whole lot of leeches in American politics 846 00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:19,360 sucking taxpayer money dry. That's that's what we're trying to 847 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,480 get at here, and that's what Open the Books does 848 00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:27,119 every day, and they're going to keep doing it. Because 849 00:47:27,119 --> 00:47:28,800 that's the mission, and it's been that way for a 850 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,360 long time. Thanks to my guest today, John Hart, CEO 851 00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:38,480 of Government Spending Tracker Open the Books, you've been listening 852 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,599 to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, 853 00:47:41,679 --> 00:47:45,559 Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon 854 00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:50,079 with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious 855 00:47:50,119 --> 00:48:04,480 for the frame. Everywhere time is going back at