WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.399 --> 00:00:06.240 Hello everyone, and welcome to another Hacking Leadership author podcasts 2 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:09.279 for the Leadership series. Here we are so excited. I know, 3 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:12.640 we've had some amazing content and dialogue with some not 4 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:16.039 just tremendous leadership book authors, but tremendous leaders themselves who 5 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:18.839 have done some really great, great work with their teams 6 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.239 and their industries and have taken the time to really 7 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:25.519 share their thoughts and perspectives with the world. So today 8 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:28.879 I'm super excited to introduce you to Elizabeth bien Nick, 9 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.920 an innovator who led the team developing WebEx Hologram. Elizabeth 10 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:36.479 the author of Cake on Tuesday, which explores her approach 11 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:40.439 to fostering innovation through culture building and leadership. So Elizabeth, 12 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:43.600 welcome to the show and say hi to our audience here. 13 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:47.200 Thank you, Lorenzo. I'm super excited to be here, super 14 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:48.840 excited to talk about this. This is awesome. 15 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:51.439 I love it. Well, let's get started right away. I 16 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.520 Cake on Tuesday. You got me with the title. I 17 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:58.079 love marketing, I love ideas, I love the ones that 18 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:00.759 go what how does this work? So walk me through 19 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:02.520 the title? First and foremost, how do we get there? 20 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:03.600 For the title of this book? 21 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:06.439 Sure, and I'll give a shout out to my publisher 22 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:08.519 for giving me some leeway on this one, because we 23 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:09.599 went back and forth a lot. 24 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:12.280 Well, I love it, I love it, Thank you. 25 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:15.400 I really wanted something that stood out and was not 26 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.079 traditional because everything about this book, everything about myself, everything 27 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:22.400 about my leadership journey is different and non traditional. So 28 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:26.560 I needed a title that reflected that. And there's a 29 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.480 chapter in the book called have Cake on Tuesday, and 30 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:31.599 it came from one particular stretch on the project that 31 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:34.200 the book is about, where things were just a little 32 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:36.959 little slow, a little bit of that slog a little 33 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:39.599 We had to make our own magic at that season. 34 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:41.920 And I was having a conversation with my opsoleet at 35 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.239 the time, who was fantastic about how do we interject 36 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:47.760 some fun, some levity, how do we create something to 37 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:50.480 rally the team around when there's not a major milestone 38 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.359 to do that, And she had this great idea of 39 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:57.519 creating a wheel Fortune style Wheel of winning and put 40 00:01:57.560 --> 00:01:59.680 everybody's name on it that was on our team at 41 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:01.400 the end of our staff meetings, we'd spend it and 42 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.079 if it landed on your name, Lorenzo today, all right, 43 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.799 you're getting the cake. This week and a cake would 44 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:08.520 show up at your door two days later for no reason, 45 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:11.560 no questions asked, and it was our staff means were 46 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:13.680 on Tuesdays, so that's where cake on Tuesday came from. 47 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:15.840 It was just a way to really celebrate the journey. 48 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:19.560 I love that, and I love you know, we talk 49 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.120 a lot about kind of moving people from the core, 50 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:25.240 like how do you create that moment where like something 51 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:28.840 is different, something is exciting, something is unique when you're 52 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:32.319 building teams and culture, and it becomes a part of 53 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:35.800 what that culture is. And I love that approach because 54 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:38.120 I think sometimes it's really easy for us to trip 55 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:39.719 and fall and get caught up in the day to 56 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:42.400 day and the minutia of the work. And then a 57 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:44.240 lot of times when you have great people and great leaders, 58 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.879 we're so hyper focused on the work that we need 59 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.759 that silliness or that thing or that's something that's not 60 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:53.719 like a part of the normalcy that kind of breaks 61 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:55.919 us out of that shell. So I absolutely love that. 62 00:02:56.599 --> 00:02:59.199 And then what as you kind of followed up on 63 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.120 that over time, you know what I mean, like, what 64 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.960 was the were there any ideas or any elements of 65 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:07.240 impact to the business or to the team that kind 66 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.439 of like grew legs from that initial approach. 67 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:12.879 Oh, I think for sure. I think everything every time 68 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.400 you're trying to do something hard, something different, it's almost 69 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:19.080 more important than that season when you're when you're working hard, 70 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.039 you have to play hard. They have to go in parallel. 71 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.919 I think. So if you're working on a project and 72 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:27.199 you're asking a lot of your team and you're trying 73 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.919 to go through uncharted waters, you're you're doing long days, 74 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:34.719 you're you're dealing with tough problems. If you're not injecting 75 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.599 some fun into that, you can burn out really really quick. 76 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:39.639 And I think that's something you can see anytime you're 77 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.240 working specifically on a bleeding edge tech where you don't 78 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.599 have a guidebook to fall back on. You're really figuring 79 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:49.240 it out as you go. So I do think in 80 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:51.479 those scenarios, I mean you see this in all different industries. 81 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.120 Paramedics and firefighters like usually some of the funniest people 82 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.120 that you'll find because they're great at just balancing things out. 83 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.800 When you're dealing with major problems, you need major humored 84 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.719 to keep you saying and grounded. So I think that 85 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.159 did set the tone with our team. I think culture 86 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.080 is something that's incredibly important and you really have to 87 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:11.960 work to build that right from the get go. And 88 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:14.080 once you have that, you have to foster it. You 89 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:15.960 have to keep feeding it. It's not a set it 90 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.720 and forget it kind of a thing. So having that 91 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:23.040 level of fun and making sure that was important, it 92 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.680 wasn't an afterthought, it was part of doing work. I 93 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:28.079 want to go be happy to go to work. I 94 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.000 want to be happy to show up and enjoy this team. 95 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:32.720 And if I'm not having a good time, then you're 96 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:34.600 probably not having a good time and we're not gonna 97 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:36.879 want to keep doing this. So if we need to 98 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:39.079 be elbow to elbow all the time, like, let's enjoy 99 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:39.639 the journey. 100 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.800 Yeah. I love that. I think I've had the honor 101 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.279 and pleasure of working with some really high performing teams, 102 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.680 and I think that the one thing that always pops 103 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:50.680 out of my head about that is that we had fun. 104 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:53.079 We worked really hard, but we had a lot of fun, 105 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.399 and that's kind of what made it something that was 106 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.079 enjoyable even in the hard times or the times that 107 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:01.600 were really really focused. So I love that. I want 108 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:03.759 to jump into the book a little bit here, specifically, 109 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:05.759 on some things that you talk about, and one of 110 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.360 the things that really stuck out to me right away 111 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:12.519 was kind of this the power of disagreements. You have 112 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.680 no idea how much I love that. I'm a sucker 113 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.560 for really great, healthy debates, and for me, I get 114 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.800 really nervous when it gets quiet, when my leaders, when 115 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:26.079 my teams aren't kind of like, you know, grinding against 116 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:29.399 each other a little bit and having some disagreement. That's 117 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.560 when I get nervous, because then I feel like we've 118 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:33.920 given up, like nobody cares anymore. And I know it's 119 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.040 not the case, but that's how I feel. So so 120 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:37.639 walk me through a little bit about that. What do 121 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.959 you mean when you say the power of disagreements and 122 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.800 why that's so important to fostering not just innovation, but 123 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:45.439 great cultures you were just talking about. 124 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.079 Yeah, I opened that chapter with the Monty Python quote 125 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:51.040 of good morning. I'd like to have an argument from 126 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:55.639 that great skit they have hold skin about arguments. Disagreement 127 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.040 is something I think it gets a bad rap at 128 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:01.079 times in certain areas, certain cultures. I worked with a 129 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.800 very global team, and I think different groups of people 130 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.120 can look at disagreement in different ways. And sometimes we 131 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.560 look at it very negatively of we need to be 132 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.600 aligned and all get along. But I think there's a 133 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:16.759 very fine distinction between we need to be working together 134 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:21.360 in unison towards the same mission and moving together as 135 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:23.959 one towards that. But that doesn't mean we're going to 136 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.360 agree one hundred percent on everything. And if we do. 137 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:29.519 Another quote I use in that chapter, is it something 138 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.079 I heard of one as a kid that always stuck 139 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:34.360 with me that if two people always agree, one of 140 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.399 them is not necessary. And that was very impactful to me, 141 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:41.600 just thinking that's kind of a good point. So if 142 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:43.920 you have a team of people that are just yes, ma'am, 143 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:47.399 yes theirs kind of thing, and nobody's bringing up dissenting opinions, 144 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:51.120 every idea that gets brought up is going to remain 145 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:54.800 as shallow as it first was. You need those disagreements 146 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:58.040 and dissenting opinions to help make it better. And if 147 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.759 you have an environment that fosters that and welcomes that, 148 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:03.920 and that's something you have to do that in action, 149 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:05.759 not just the word. And there's a lot of times 150 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.279 I'll say like, any idea is welcome, and then somebody 151 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.319 brings up an idea and it gets shot down, So 152 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.199 you have to make sure your culture and your behavior 153 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.160 back set up. But if you do have that environment 154 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.759 where you want the descending opinions like help make my 155 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.720 idea better, that's how you can go fast. I think 156 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.759 specifically an innovation where you are again building the proverbial airplane. 157 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.279 As you're flying it. You can't wait till you have 158 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:30.319 all the research and all the facts and have that 159 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:32.240 all figured out and I've got evaded, I've got my 160 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.240 market validation. You're going to be too late to the game. 161 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:39.360 So you're moving very quickly with minimal data, and so 162 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:42.399 you really rely on other people to poke holes, and 163 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:44.879 hopefully the holes are getting poked by your friends and 164 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.639 your colleagues before it goes out there and the market 165 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.519 and flops. So you want the people that are going 166 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.879 to bring up those conflicting opinions because the end goal 167 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.639 should be what I'm bringing to the table, what you're 168 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.480 bringing to the table, all these other people are bringing 169 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:00.319 to the table. We've all got a piece of that puzzle, 170 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.759 but when you put it together, the sum of all 171 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:05.319 the parts is greater. That's that's what you're going for. 172 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:08.160 Yeah, I love that And I think one of the 173 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:10.800 questions that we get a lot on the podcast is like, 174 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:14.199 how do you create the space for that to actually happen? 175 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:16.920 Like as the leader of a team and you're in 176 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:19.680 a meeting, or you're in an ideation session, or you're 177 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:21.680 in a blue sky meeting, whatever we want to call it, 178 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:26.040 Like you have people, they know that there is you 179 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:27.759 know that we have to kind of push up once 180 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.199 again against one another, maybe shoot holes in the plan. 181 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.840 But how do you make that happen in a healthy way, 182 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:36.879 especially initially, like again once once you have the team 183 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.600 down that path and they all understand the value that 184 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:41.679 they each bring and that this is an expectation that 185 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:44.399 we have to do to make sure the best idea wins. 186 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.720 What are those first maybe couple of meetings look like 187 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.600 or what are you doing to open up the space 188 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.799 to make it okay for us to have these different 189 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:56.679 opinions and not necessarily take it personal. 190 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.759 Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. One is 191 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:05.519 it's important to set guidelines and boundaries. I think it's 192 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:08.480 they're referred to this a lot. I have three small 193 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:12.840 kids ten and under, and I say that leading is 194 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:16.600 a lot like parenting. You have to have firm guidelines 195 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:18.759 and boundaries because your kids are going to push for 196 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.440 those and find to find those. Where's my end? How 197 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:24.279 far can I go? But then within those boundaries you 198 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:27.120 need to give freedom. And I one hundred percent I 199 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:29.639 think it's the same when you're telling leading a team, 200 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:31.960 you need to as a leader, you need to set boundaries. 201 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:34.279 You need to be clear about that. Can't just be hey, 202 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:36.320 we're gonna have an open dialogue and debate about anything 203 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.200 and everything and who cares what the outcome is and 204 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.399 we can talk for seventeen hours. You need some sort 205 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.159 of parameter because there's there's some goal you're trying to achieve, 206 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:45.799 Like we need to make a decision, we need to 207 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:49.080 build something, we need to move forward. I this game 208 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:51.039 when you were being up the question that gave me 209 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.240 a flash back to my first management job twenty some 210 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.559 odd years ago, and I remember having this conversation with 211 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.639 my team back then, or did I They asked me 212 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.480 what my management style was, and this was my first 213 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.000 management job, so I'm like, well, I'm to figure it 214 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:08.919 out as I go. But I had made the answer 215 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:13.440 of I am a collaborative leader until the clock runs out, 216 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:17.279 and then I'm command and control. And I think that 217 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.799 worked really well, and that's something I have continued to 218 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.240 use throughout my career of I want to hear upfront 219 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.399 all those opinions and your question of how do you 220 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.759 make room for that? I think if you say it, 221 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:36.080 I'm big on say what you mean to me what 222 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.879 you say. So when you have those first meetings, when 223 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:40.960 you're still figuring out what a project is going to 224 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.480 look like, be very crystal clear on here's the end 225 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:45.480 goal of what we're trying to do. This is what 226 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:46.919 we're trying to build, where we're trying to go, what 227 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:49.799 we need to accomplish. Here are the known parameters that 228 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.519 we have, time, budget, money, resources, whatever case is. But 229 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.279 then within that, say, now we got to figure out 230 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:56.559 how we're going to get there, how we're getting from 231 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.879 A to B. Thoughts ideas and open it up and 232 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.840 you can throw some thing out as the first idea. 233 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:04.559 Just be careful you don't throw that out with the 234 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:07.840 feeling that, oh, I can't I can't poke holes at 235 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:09.399 that because that's the boss's idea and I can't go 236 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.000 against that. So you definitely have to poke holes at 237 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:13.799 your own idea and throw out and say this is 238 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.960 where it's impartial. This is where I'm getting stuck in 239 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.679 my own mental process, like this is a problem. What 240 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.159 do you guys think? How can we do this better? 241 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:22.759 What can we add to it? And I think, again, 242 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.519 if you back that up with behavior, you don't shoot 243 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:28.159 down people's ideas, you don't call somebody out in a room, 244 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.000 you don't make somebody feel stupid in front of a 245 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.159 crowd of their peers. So you have to back it 246 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:34.279 up with behavior. But once you start having some meeting 247 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:37.120 like that, like that, you get some really great dialogue 248 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:40.039 in collaboration and people build on each other's ideas. But 249 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:42.879 then when you start running out the clock, then you 250 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.200 all right, great, those awesome. Here alls different opinions. There's 251 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:47.639 a lot of different approaches we do. We can't do 252 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.120 all of them right now. Let's do this, and then 253 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:51.840 you can throw that out and you can get feedback 254 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.799 on that, like any thoughts, feedback on that approach. But 255 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.120 the end of the day, you do have to make 256 00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.559 a decision. That's the buck has tot up with somebody. 257 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.039 So collaborative up until a point and then command and control. 258 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:06.080 Yeah, I love that collaborative into the clock runs out, 259 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:08.159 I'm writing that down. I love that's such a great 260 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:11.919 point there. It's phenomenal. And and you know, I also 261 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:16.080 have two young daughters that are in second and third grade, 262 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:19.120 so it's we have it ongoing joke with the Hacking 263 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:22.240 Leadership podcast. It's like people have made bingo cards about 264 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.159 the things that we kind of always talk about, and 265 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.559 like the parental reference is one of those things we 266 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:28.759 do it so often because it's so true. There's so 267 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:31.840 many things there from yeah it is, we're living it, 268 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.559 you know, like we're living like this is exactly what 269 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.879 leadership is, right. I think it's so great. So I 270 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:38.759 do want to take a quick break to hear from 271 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:40.799 word from our sponsors. But when we get back, I'm 272 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.600 going to ask Elizabeth about going outside. 273 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:44.320 Uh. 274 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:47.600 And I love this because it made me think immediately 275 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.840 about some of my childhood and some of the elements here, 276 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.919 along with a meeting that I just attended around sportsmanship 277 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.159 for my daughter who is about to start playing basketball. 278 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.080 So we'll be right back with Elizabeth after these messages. 279 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.200 All right, we are back here on the second half 280 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.600 of this show with Elizabeth, and we want to talk 281 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.559 about going outside. You mentioned this as a childhood mantra. 282 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.320 I saw this term and I immediately thought of like me 283 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.919 taking my bike to the big field to play with 284 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.960 all the kids and there and there were no parents around, 285 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:25.679 and it was a lot of like we had to 286 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:27.320 figure out number one, what we were gonna do to 287 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:29.200 have fun and not get in trouble, and then number 288 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:31.440 two whatever we were going to play a lot of 289 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.799 times we had to make up the rules and make adjustments, 290 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.000 but there was so much just joy, and looking back 291 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:41.840 on it, I think innovation and courage and confidence and 292 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.399 all these things that came with it. So I'd love 293 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.200 to dig a little bit deeper into this, just around 294 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.080 going outside as a metaphor for you. What do you 295 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:48.679 mean by that? 296 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.399 Yeah, I think of my mom when I was a kid, 297 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.279 and how many times she said that. I think I 298 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.600 grew up in the geography and an era where the 299 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:02.279 answer to everything was just going outside. I grew up 300 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:05.919 in rural upstate New York, just outside of Albany. I 301 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:10.519 lived on a dishy of forty acre small farm for 302 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.320 our own sessenence and whatnot. It was all woods. It's 303 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:17.360 all woodland back there, and it was anytime we weren't 304 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.840 in school or occupied in some way helping with the farm. 305 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.200 There was no such thing as on board. Can I 306 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:25.159 play Mario? Can I do? 307 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:25.240 What? 308 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.399 Was? Say? No? Go outside, go outside, come back when 309 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.360 it's dark. I'll call you when it's dinner. And I 310 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:37.039 spent a huge amount of my childhood outside just exploring 311 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.159 and dealing with nature and wandering through those thirty eight 312 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.600 acres I think it was. And I have a talk 313 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.559 topic that I say, the value of poking things with sticks, 314 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.159 and a lot of that is based on those same 315 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.720 stories and remembrances of upstate New York is pretty wet 316 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.519 in the spring, so you end up had just everything's mud. 317 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.080 And I remember there's this little stream that ran and 318 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:06.519 through the woods in our backyard that if you poked 319 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:08.559 it a certain way, move some rocks around, move some 320 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.320 leaves around, you could actually make it run a fair 321 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:13.679 a fair amount. But otherwise it would just get a 322 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.639 little stagnant and get filled filled up. And so I 323 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:18.840 spent so much of my time just outside playing around 324 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:20.840 with stuff like that, And like, hey, if I divert 325 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.279 the water path here, what does this do? And like, oh, 326 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:25.159 let me just make a mud puddle over here and 327 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:26.840 like I find a critter and stick it in there 328 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:31.279 and do so much is just expiration. And I think 329 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.320 because of having that ingrained and me as a kid, 330 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.200 it's something I still well. I tell my kids to 331 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.960 do it all the time. Team just go outside. But 332 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.799 I think it's something I use more metaphorically when I 333 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:47.159 when I get stuck with something, anytime you get caught 334 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.639 up in your own thinking, trying to solve a problem, 335 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.200 really trying to look at things from a different angle, 336 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.279 just physically taking a break and going outside. We are 337 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.600 creatures that were designed to be a nature. We weren't 338 00:15:57.639 --> 00:15:59.759 designed to be in these little cubical boxes. And I 339 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:04.799 think that's very stifling on your creativity and your perspective 340 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.919 when you have a literal four walls closing in on you. 341 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.440 So the ability to just get out of your environment 342 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.440 figuratively and literally and allow yourself the luxury of a 343 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:23.600 different perspective, I think that's really what helps thinking, problem solving, inspiration, innovation, ideation. 344 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:26.919 It's amazing for that. So when I want going through 345 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:29.399 the process of writing the book, I kept hearing I 346 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.320 think my mom's voice talking to me from heaven of 347 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.399 like just go outside. When I get stuck like godside. 348 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.240 And so that theme is recurrent throughout the book because 349 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.679 it is just a huge metaphor for problem solving in 350 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:42.200 my life. 351 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.360 Yeah, I love that, and that resonates with me quite 352 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.480 a bit, and I think it's such an important thing. 353 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.840 It's like it's the actual sense of getting stuck. It's 354 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.240 a real, real thing, and it happens quite often, and 355 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:59.159 many times we have to change the environment, you know, 356 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.360 change change something that's going on to kind of break 357 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.480 ourselves out of that. And I just love the idea 358 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.200 of just kind of like get out there and and 359 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.839 and go go poke the mud with a stick, you know, 360 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.400 like just go do something that is going to is 361 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.759 going to just have you go experience things in a 362 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:20.000 different way and then bring that back together. So I 363 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.400 love that metaphor for sure. You know, in the book 364 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.680 you have you have five parts, and I want to 365 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.559 talk about each of them. The first one, starting is hard. 366 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:30.799 I think it's such a great call out there, and 367 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.359 there's something in there that that that stood out to 368 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.000 me around being disagreeable. You know, you talk about going 369 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.839 outside of your comfort zone, finding uniqueness and embracing simplicity, 370 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:44.759 but but being disagreeable. I read that and I'm like, 371 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.799 it's it's such a great call, but I think that 372 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:52.279 sometimes people may not. You know, it's one of those 373 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:54.079 words that when you read it, you kind of project 374 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.400 your own definition onto it. Yeah, right, versus like what 375 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.400 you mean? So I'd love you to maybe talk a 376 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.200 little bit about what do you mean by you when 377 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:02.519 you say being disagreeable? 378 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.759 Yeah, I think looking at it in the context of 379 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.160 starting versus how we were talking about it earlier in 380 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.400 the in the podcast. But looking at in the context 381 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:14.799 purely of starting, it is related to go outside. And 382 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:18.200 I actually, I'll be honest, my drafts of Cake on Tuesday, 383 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:20.599 I flip flopped those chapters a few times of which 384 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.680 which one should I start with? And I ended up 385 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.720 starting with be disagreeable because the whole first section that 386 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:28.920 is about starting. I felt like that was the most 387 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:33.720 important thing. And it came from I start out the 388 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.839 book with a story having a chat with my former 389 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.279 manager of it was very much like that Monty Python, 390 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.200 good morning. I'd like to have an argument, And part 391 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.119 of it is just me being native New Yorker. I'm like, 392 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:47.559 let's let's just let's go things go. Let's let's let's start. 393 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.920 And he's based in California, and we like to have 394 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.880 that coastal conflict, I think. And we were having a 395 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:59.039 coffee one morning and he oversaw he was a VP 396 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.640 in our department over several different groups, and I was 397 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.799 just in one small facet of that. At the time. 398 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:09.680 I was working on business relationships and strategic relationships. He 399 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:12.480 had a separate group that was working on strategy, and 400 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.680 I was not really involved in that other than tangentially, 401 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:17.680