Speaker 1: We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion Fest. Hello,
Speaker 1: kit is welcome back to another edition of the PSO.
Speaker 1: I am the team. You're Tel Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm
Speaker 1: here with the low and your te Lorenzo as my
Speaker 1: lovely husband. Why are you lovely husband?
Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful?
Speaker 1: You don't sound it.
Speaker 2: I am wonderful, you are wonderful.
Speaker 1: We have things to discuss this week, and actually, pardon me,
Speaker 1: I'm going to start off by getting a little serious
Speaker 1: here and doing something that we almost never do, which
Speaker 1: is give a little trigger warning. We are going to
Speaker 1: be talking about John Cogliano and Ariana Grande, which means
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about anti semitism and eating
Speaker 1: disorders today. And you know what, if you just heard
Speaker 1: that and said I'm out, I actually don't blame you
Speaker 1: if you don't want to listen to that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: But we cover celebrities and we cover fashion, and these
Speaker 1: are two of the biggest stories of the week, and
Speaker 1: we feel like we need to unpack these things. I
Speaker 1: want you to understand that when we talk about Ariana
Speaker 1: later in the podcast, it is about the media circus
Speaker 1: surrounding her. It is about how her team decided to
Speaker 1: frame this issue, and it's about fandom. It's not about her.
Speaker 1: We're not going to sit here and criticize her looks
Speaker 1: or criticize anything about her, because that's not what this
Speaker 1: is about. We are two people who have been writing
Speaker 1: about celebrity and fashion and public image for twenty years now.
Speaker 1: We have been covering her for almost that entire time.
Speaker 1: So yes, we have a few thoughts, but we're first
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Galliano. Yeah, yes, yes, Oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what you were asking for me. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're talking about John Galliano. It was announceda yeah, it
Speaker 1: was announced this week that the twenty twenty seven metcala uh,
Speaker 1: the exhibit that you know. As to explain once again,
Speaker 1: the metcala is always based on whatever exhibit is running
Speaker 1: in the Costume Institute of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Speaker 1: This year, the or next year, the institute will be
Speaker 1: putting an exhibit together honoring John Galliano. It just to
Speaker 1: give you a rundown here. John Galliano, he he worked
Speaker 1: for a bunch of designers, but at the time he
Speaker 1: was at Dior when this happened. He worked, I mean
Speaker 1: his his fame is when he was with you, when
Speaker 1: he was with Dior. And I'll start by saying that
Speaker 1: Colliano was a genius. Colliano was one of the greats
Speaker 1: of twenty first century fashion. But when he was working
Speaker 1: for Dior circa two thousand in the aughts, sometime it
Speaker 1: because he got drunk. He I believe has struggled with
Speaker 1: addiction issues throughout his adult life. He was drunk in
Speaker 1: a cafe and he accosted to women who were I
Speaker 1: don't know if they mentioned that they were Jewish or
Speaker 1: he assumed that they were Jewish, but he started ranting
Speaker 1: about how much he loves Hitler and how you know
Speaker 1: they're all going to be sent to the camps and
Speaker 1: their grandmothers were sent to the camps. It was just
Speaker 1: extremely offensive, like someone who was going out of their
Speaker 1: way to be offensive. And you know, there was a
Speaker 1: pretty immediate response from the fashion world and the celebrity
Speaker 1: were because he was a red carpet master. I mean,
Speaker 1: people wore his stuff, isn't Yeah, I won't get into that,
Speaker 1: but so like Nicole, not Nicole, Natalie Portman came out
Speaker 1: almost to me because she's been a deer or spokes
Speaker 1: you know, ambassador for for decades now, and she came
Speaker 1: out and she's Jewish, and she came out with it,
Speaker 1: and largely was considered at the time that her statement
Speaker 1: was what got him fired.
Speaker 2: Am I wrong? Well, I mean she's Jewish, she was
Speaker 2: representing the house. How can you not have a bigger
Speaker 2: star that Actually, don't ignore that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was in the Star Wars films and everything,
Speaker 1: so she was a major star at the time, not
Speaker 1: that she isn't now. And for her to come and
Speaker 1: she came out and I actually read her statement today
Speaker 1: and it's interesting because in twenty twenty six, I think
Speaker 1: she probably would have given a much stronger stor. It
Speaker 1: was a very like pr voiced statement. And I because
Speaker 1: she was a younger actress then and maybe she felt
Speaker 1: she couldn't anyway, she spoke out against it, and she
Speaker 1: said she could never work with him again, and not
Speaker 1: long after that with the house, work with the House again?
Speaker 2: And do you or let him go? The thing is
Speaker 2: that God? Yeah, but John Goway is a genius. I mean,
Speaker 2: the man is absolutely a genius when it comes to fashion.
Speaker 2: Door never looks so stunny. I agree that the old
Speaker 2: couture collections which they don't even do it and do
Speaker 2: them anymore. But the way he did it, it was
Speaker 2: just surreal. It was like magic walking down the runway.
Speaker 2: It was the most beautiful work. But you know, that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean because you are creative, that you're talented, that
Speaker 2: you don't have you know, a dark side or you know,
Speaker 2: you come out and say something like that. It was
Speaker 2: shocking to me at the time when the whole thing happened,
Speaker 2: and you know, it was the beginning of people, you know,
Speaker 2: filming you and that's why we have a video and
Speaker 2: you can't deny that. So yeah, it was it was sad,
Speaker 2: I felt. I mean, that's that's why you know, that's
Speaker 2: it's that fine line. You shouldn't expect too much from
Speaker 2: the you know, from the people you admire that you
Speaker 2: never met and that you admire their work, but you
Speaker 2: know you don't know the person. So I was disappointed.
Speaker 1: It was shocking, disappointing, And I just because people will
Speaker 1: tend to take things out of context with conversations like this,
Speaker 1: I just want to add when you say it's disappointing,
Speaker 1: I don't want to speak for you, but I think
Speaker 1: what you're saying is it's disappointing that someone that talented
Speaker 1: has such an ugly heart.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: Yes, what I'm trying to say not that you're disappointed
Speaker 1: that he got fire, No, no, no.
Speaker 2: I'm disappointed that someone that I admire so much for
Speaker 2: their work, talent and everything intelligent man would would would
Speaker 2: have the thoughts in his head and or ideas or
Speaker 2: or believes. Yeah so, and it's apolline, It's just a pully.
Speaker 2: It's just now.
Speaker 1: The fashion world has long had an history of racism
Speaker 1: Orienti Semitism in its ranks. Just before we flipped on
Speaker 1: the mind side talked about us going to the DNA
Speaker 1: in London last or two years ago to see the
Speaker 1: exhibit on Coco Chanel, and it was a stunning exhibit
Speaker 1: that took over like an I think half a wing
Speaker 1: and there was one little banal panel in the corner
Speaker 1: that was barely lit that referred to her it's a Nazi,
Speaker 1: her ties to the Nazis. And I think at the
Speaker 1: time we were like, well, they tried, and here's my
Speaker 1: take on that.
Speaker 2: I do think the.
Speaker 1: VNA should have gone deeper into that hole, uh and
Speaker 1: really illuminated it a little bit better. But I was
Speaker 1: not at the time. It never occurred to me at
Speaker 1: the time to be offended that a museum would mount
Speaker 1: an exhibit for Coco Chanel because regardless, again, regardless of
Speaker 1: her politics or beliefs, she was a genius and a
Speaker 1: revolutionary who had a significant impact on the world, and
Speaker 1: I think it's worth it to look at the work
Speaker 1: that she did. I am not opposed to Galliano getting
Speaker 1: a museum exhibit if it was just separate from this,
Speaker 1: but I I mean, I kind of think he doesn't
Speaker 1: deserve one. But whatever, I just don't think they should
Speaker 1: have an entire gala elevating him like that. And I
Speaker 1: think it's at a time of intense worldwide rising anti
Speaker 1: semitism and Islamophobia. That is just I just don't think
Speaker 1: you should be elevating a man who made such ugly
Speaker 1: public comments.
Speaker 2: Right maybe another time, but this is when he's dead,
Speaker 2: But this is not the right time.
Speaker 1: He's still working. So the thing is you have now
Speaker 1: elevated him, and he's actually going to make more money,
Speaker 1: he's going to get more commissions, he's gonna you know,
Speaker 1: he's just you're making his career better.
Speaker 2: Whereas with the VNA, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, Chanelle was dead for fifty years, you couldn't There
Speaker 1: was no benefit to her or to the brand. So
Speaker 1: it never occurred to me at the time to be
Speaker 1: offended by that by the existence of that.
Speaker 2: Exhibit.
Speaker 1: But I struggle with this, and I really think it
Speaker 1: makes Annah Winter look like a piece of shit. I
Speaker 1: know she got him in stated at Oscar de la
Speaker 1: Rena like years and years, like she's always been trying
Speaker 1: to get him back. And what's that quote that you said,
Speaker 1: so she had She is a.
Speaker 2: Huge She loves him and defended him in a way
Speaker 2: or didn't say anything at the time because you know,
Speaker 2: they're friends and she loves him. And she said because
Speaker 2: they made the announcement that the met Galib was going
Speaker 2: to be, you know, pe homage to him, she came
Speaker 2: out and said, you know, his career shouldn't be defined
Speaker 2: by a moment something that happened once, you know, an
Speaker 2: entire career. And then she also said that the exhibit
Speaker 2: is not going to shy away from any darkness in
Speaker 2: his life.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, as to the latter point, I think that's bullshit.
Speaker 1: I think it probably will gloss it over tremendous.
Speaker 2: What is going to do play the video at the end.
Speaker 1: As to the former point, I agree that a person's
Speaker 1: career should not be defined by a moment, especially especially
Speaker 1: if that moment is tied to their substance abuse issues.
Speaker 1: Right however, and by that I mean we have in
Speaker 1: We haven't had much opportunity to do this, but we
Speaker 1: have had opportunity to feature people on the side wearing
Speaker 1: Galliano and it. I don't think we ever really wrestled
Speaker 1: with it all that much. Similarly, I mean, every celebrity
Speaker 1: wants to wear adult chiankabana and those two racist motherfuckers.
Speaker 1: It doesn't even bother.
Speaker 2: You know. They forget and forgive very quickly they do,
Speaker 2: so that's the industry.
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with Galliano having a career
Speaker 1: because he is so talented and people still want to
Speaker 1: wear his stuff. I never I never thought as bad
Speaker 1: as that diatribe was. I never thought that he should
Speaker 1: never work again because of it. I do very firmly
Speaker 1: think we should not be elevating him above other designers
Speaker 1: and celebrating him that much. Let him have that career,
Speaker 1: Let the work speak for itself. Do not throw a
Speaker 1: fucking party. The biggest fashion party in the world is
Speaker 1: now going to be thrown in his honor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the problem with the MET gala is that you're
Speaker 2: gonna put that person on the pedestal se so hi,
Speaker 2: and you're gonna, you know, praise that person. Everyone's gonna
Speaker 2: talk about it about him on the red carpet. It's
Speaker 2: going to praise him in his work. And so is
Speaker 2: anyone going to ask about the video or about what
Speaker 2: he said?
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I don't know about that ceremony, not
Speaker 1: to I don't want to dabble in stereotypes here, but
Speaker 1: I think given New York City, the likelihood that the
Speaker 1: biggest donors to the MET are significantly Joe, there is
Speaker 1: a significant Jewish component to that, And I wonder how
Speaker 1: many of them are going to go to this or
Speaker 1: donate to this knowing it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I would love to see a blowback, but I don't know.
Speaker 2: They're already talking about it, and maybe when you get
Speaker 2: closer to the actual megala there'll be more discussion about it.
Speaker 2: We'll see, But I feel that it's decided, I mean,
Speaker 2: and when tour decided, and that's not gonna change. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and she doesn't care. The fashion industry doesn't care about
Speaker 2: a lot of things. They care about pretty things, that's
Speaker 2: all they care.
Speaker 1: I think we should. I think people should use this
Speaker 1: moment to really hammer home the point that of what
Speaker 1: he said and why it's wrong.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I think glossing over it is a very very bad idea.
Speaker 2: I agree. And to answer the.
Speaker 1: Question that we will likely be asked, yeah, we're going
Speaker 1: to cover the MET column. We're not going to not
Speaker 1: cover the MET colla. But when we cover it, we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about how problematic this is.
Speaker 2: The thing is that, given what's going on in the
Speaker 2: world for the past I don't know, six years or more, Uh,
Speaker 2: if we don't cover something because of something, we won't
Speaker 2: have a sight anymore. That's true. I mean everyone is
Speaker 2: out there doing something horrific or saying something horrific, and
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, that's that's any.
Speaker 1: Our job is to cover the red carpet, to cover fashion.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're going to cover the premier red carpet
Speaker 1: event of the year in the United States.
Speaker 2: And our cover our job, to a certain extent is
Speaker 2: to talk about it. That's why we're talking about it.
Speaker 1: And when the coverage comes around, we will continue to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Right, Exactly, A lot of those people
Speaker 1: are likely to show up in Gliano originals. They are
Speaker 1: or homages to Kalliano, and we need to talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, the problem with that.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: I don't really have anything else to say except I'm
Speaker 1: disappointed in her, Not that I ever had. I never
Speaker 1: thought she was my mor guide or anything like that.
Speaker 1: But you're at the end of your career and you're
Speaker 1: doing this, You're elevating this. I know you love him,
Speaker 1: I know he's talented, but this is a stain. It's
Speaker 1: a stain on your career. It's a stain on the
Speaker 1: met right, I agree. I mean, Manhattan has one of
Speaker 1: the largest Jewish populations in the world. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: it has the largest in the United States. To take
Speaker 1: one of your premier cultural institutions and turn it entirely
Speaker 1: over to celebrating one of the world's most famous anti Semites,
Speaker 1: what are you thinking? And I'm really hoping there's a
Speaker 1: bigger blow. I mean, there was some blowback this week,
Speaker 1: but to my shock, there has been very little now.
Speaker 2: Because it was something that happened a long time ago,
Speaker 2: and he already talked about it. I think there was
Speaker 2: a documentary where he mentioned it talks about it. You know,
Speaker 2: he has apologized.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, Sorry, no, no, yes, go ahead,
Speaker 1: he apologized to you. I do want to put that
Speaker 1: out there. Like he has been on a rehabilitative tour.
Speaker 1: It's not like he has spent twenty years making these comments.
Speaker 1: It was an outburst. It was an ugly one. I
Speaker 1: think it clearly showed the darkest parts of himself, right,
Speaker 1: But I do want to you know, in all of this,
Speaker 1: I should note that he was he has tried to
Speaker 1: atone for this in some ways.
Speaker 2: Right. The problem with those comments is that, fine, it
Speaker 2: was one comment, but there are certain things.
Speaker 1: That I don't like comment never saying anything remotely close
Speaker 1: to that. And at the point when white people like
Speaker 1: us say, well, you know, as if it's something that
Speaker 1: you know, at the drop of a hat, any of
Speaker 1: us would have said that, I want to make it clear.
Speaker 1: I have never said anything like that, and I don't
Speaker 1: excuse it.
Speaker 2: I you have to Yeah, if you said it, it's
Speaker 2: because it's it was, it's somewhere inside you. It was
Speaker 2: stored somewhere you breathe. That's exactly right, all right.
Speaker 1: I think we'll stop there and take a break and
Speaker 1: then we're gonna come back and discuss another lighthearted topic.
Speaker 2: We'll be back to talk.
Speaker 1: About Ariana Grande. We're back, and now we're going to
Speaker 1: tackle something that's probably going to be difficult for some
Speaker 1: people to hear. And in some ways it's we're gonna
Speaker 1: tip we're not gonna tiptoe through this, but we're being
Speaker 1: very careful about how we talk about it. And let
Speaker 1: me explain why we're talking about Ariana Grande, who her
Speaker 1: her people, and she herself released a statement this week
Speaker 1: that when her current Eternal Sunshine tour ends, and I
Speaker 1: think there's only a couple of dates left, she's going
Speaker 1: to be pulling back from public life. She pulled out
Speaker 1: of doing Sunday in the Park with George with Jonathan
Speaker 1: Bailey next year on Broadway.
Speaker 2: And it was in UK, isn't it. Oh maybe you're right,
Speaker 2: Maybe it was. We're probably right.
Speaker 1: So and this comes after months and actually literally years
Speaker 1: of commentary about her appearance in fandom and online and
Speaker 1: on social media. The general it is generally understood, although
Speaker 1: Ariana herself has not made this sort of statement, and
Speaker 1: she may not be prepared to make this sort of statement,
Speaker 1: but it is generally understood that she is suffering from
Speaker 1: an eating disorder, and people are making this leap or
Speaker 1: assumption about her because of the physical evidence. And I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna you know, I'm very I'm trying to be
Speaker 1: very careful here because it's very possible that Ariana it
Speaker 1: has some other form of illness that is causing her
Speaker 1: to look like this. But there has been a serious,
Speaker 1: serious shrinking of Ariana since Wicked one, since the first
Speaker 1: Wicked film.
Speaker 2: I think she's going through a lot, you know, I
Speaker 2: think I've been watching her and I think to Revoo
Speaker 2: talk about Wiked and stuff. I think they were. I
Speaker 2: think Wicked was age of disappointment for them. She also
Speaker 2: went to a.
Speaker 1: Divorce, all kinds of relationship drama. There's there's a lot
Speaker 1: happened to her campaign, loss of campaign.
Speaker 2: And then they didn't do well. It was big disappointment
Speaker 2: for them, and the scrutiny around the two of them,
Speaker 2: their friendship. The people were mocking the two of them
Speaker 2: for being too close, you know, touching each other and
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, doing interviews. That was There's a
Speaker 2: lot going on, yeah, in terms of like you know,
Speaker 2: people talking about her and and you know, it's been,
Speaker 2: but then you know, it feels like it's getting worse
Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, her state of mind or
Speaker 2: whatever it could be.
Speaker 1: I don't know physical appearances a arming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna be shot. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna shot away from saying that I watched Pedal the
Speaker 2: video and I was shocked.
Speaker 1: I had a hard time sitting throw.
Speaker 2: I had a hard time not focusing on on on
Speaker 2: her appearance, and you know that that's all I'll say.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna judge why or when and how, because
Speaker 2: that's not my job here or you know, I don't
Speaker 2: know her. I don't know what she's going through. But
Speaker 2: visually what I see was shocking. What I saw was shocking.
Speaker 2: So that's why people were talking. And then you know,
Speaker 2: you have someone like Jamilla and Jamil right who talks about,
Speaker 2: you know, the whole industry. And where did she talk
Speaker 2: about this? I think she posted on Instagram, one of
Speaker 2: her social media accounts. She made a put a long
Speaker 2: statement about it, and she was careful because she tends
Speaker 2: to be a little too loud about the subject. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm not defending her or criticizing her, but she's very
Speaker 2: vocal about the whole you know, celebrities getting too thin,
Speaker 2: So that's her. She's been talking about that for a
Speaker 2: long time now. So she put a statement and she
Speaker 2: was kind of careful about it. She would saying, you know,
Speaker 2: it breaks my heart. I don't know what to do here,
Speaker 2: but you know, I don't want to, you know, add
Speaker 2: to the conversation out there, you know, being mean to her.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I can't ignore this because
Speaker 2: there are a lot of young girls out there, you know,
Speaker 2: who adore her, who admire her, who are fans, and
Speaker 2: they see that, and you know, and if it's not
Speaker 2: talked about, that's her frame. If it's not talk about,
Speaker 2: then it becomes something normal, okay for these fans out.
Speaker 1: There, for these you mentioned our job, and I want
Speaker 1: to I want to slip in from that perspective.
Speaker 2: And I.
Speaker 1: You know, I joked about this before we flipped on
Speaker 1: the mics. I was like, I hope people don't think
Speaker 1: we're going to make this all about ourselves. But at
Speaker 1: the same token, I don't think you want us to
Speaker 1: make it all about Ariana because then it becomes very judgmental.
Speaker 2: So here's what.
Speaker 1: And this is partially inspired you know we are. Our
Speaker 1: twenty year anniversary was last month. We wrote a big
Speaker 1: post and there's just been a lot of reminiscing and
Speaker 1: talking and thinking about how things have changed over the years,
Speaker 1: or or choices that we've made over the years. Very
Speaker 1: early in our Red Carpet blogging, we realized, after some
Speaker 1: mistakes I will cop to these mistakes, making flip and
Speaker 1: comments or whatever, we realize that we cannot be discussing
Speaker 1: women's bodies at all on our site, and we can't
Speaker 1: allow other people to do it as well.
Speaker 2: And let me just say one thing. It wasn't because
Speaker 2: we were criticized for it. We were crease starts for it,
Speaker 2: but we decided ourselves that that's not us, that's not right,
Speaker 2: and that's why we stopped. I don't want people to
Speaker 2: think that we don't do it anymore because of the
Speaker 2: criticism now, because we realize.
Speaker 1: It's because we under you know, we understood the criticism.
Speaker 1: But also, uh, I want to reiterate a point because
Speaker 1: this has come up repeatedly with stars like Ariana, because
Speaker 1: when you say, oh, no, no body snarking on our site,
Speaker 1: I think the first thing people jump to is, you know,
Speaker 1: don't call someone fat, don't make fun of their cellullyte
Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: But in my.
Speaker 1: Experience, body snarking goes in the opposite direction. It's always uh,
Speaker 1: it's always about criticizing thin women. And I became very aware.
Speaker 1: We became very aware early on in our professional blogging
Speaker 1: careers that we couldn't do this, and we could, and
Speaker 1: Lorenzo says, because it was wrong, but also we could
Speaker 1: not be a site. We could not be seen as
Speaker 1: a site where that sort of conversation happens on the regular.
Speaker 1: We are two men who decided to make our living
Speaker 1: discussing celebrity fashion, and because of the nature of the
Speaker 1: public and just freaking culture, we didn't invent the world
Speaker 1: that's going to skew towards women's wear. We have worked very,
Speaker 1: very hard to make sure that we are talking about
Speaker 1: men's wear at a nearly equal level. But listen, there's
Speaker 1: a reason we never mentioned Prince William when we're looking
Speaker 1: at Princess Kathy because nobody cares. Nobody cares what he's wearing, and.
Speaker 2: Don't say it in a comment section.
Speaker 1: I don't care what he's wearing, right, and he never
Speaker 1: wears anything worth talking about.
Speaker 2: Anyway, So you know, we don't don't cover him, but
Speaker 2: we are men, and.
Speaker 1: In setting ourselves up to do that sort of work,
Speaker 1: we are setting ourselves up for a tremendous amount of criticism.
Speaker 1: And I would say for the first ten years of
Speaker 1: our careers it was just conventional wisdom. It had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with anything we were writing. Anyone who encountered
Speaker 1: us for the first time, We're like, oh, two gay
Speaker 1: men writing about and just immediately assume that we hate
Speaker 1: women and that we're calling all of them fat. And
Speaker 1: these were the kinds of constant reactions we were getting
Speaker 1: early on in our career, regardless of what we were doing.
Speaker 1: So we established a very strict no talking about this
Speaker 1: rule on our site for that reason, because it's moral,
Speaker 1: and because strictly for business reasons, we could not be
Speaker 1: seen as a site where those discussions were happening. And
Speaker 1: I'm bringing this up now because during the Wicked and
Speaker 1: Wicked Too tour, that became the problem on our site
Speaker 1: because we constantly had to either delete comments or ask
Speaker 1: people not to make those comments, and several times people
Speaker 1: got mad at us for it, and they thought we
Speaker 1: were legitimizing her, you know, her I mean, that would
Speaker 1: be the case if we were like, doesn't she look fabulous?
Speaker 1: Doesn't this fit her?
Speaker 2: Great?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, she's so thin. Like obviously, we're not
Speaker 1: saying shit like that. When we talked about Ariana during
Speaker 1: this period, we talked about her, her color choices, the
Speaker 1: style choices, that's sort of the cosplay that she was,
Speaker 1: the theme dressing, and strenuously avoided anything talking about how
Speaker 1: things fit her or anything like that, because again, you
Speaker 1: cannot invite that sort of commentary. It starts getting ugly.
Speaker 1: Almost even well intentioned people will wind up saying things.
Speaker 1: And I go back to my point that I made earlier,
Speaker 1: and you know, hey, let's all remember Chadwick Boseman, because
Speaker 1: Chadwick Mostman made an appearance and nobody knew who he
Speaker 1: had cancer, but he didn't look healthy, and everybody commented
Speaker 1: and some people were kind of mean about it. We
Speaker 1: are all assuming that Arion has an eating disorder, and
Speaker 1: that assumption alone is somewhat problematic.
Speaker 2: I don't know what her issue is.
Speaker 1: I think she clearly has a health issue. It is
Speaker 1: not my job or my role to and to diagnose that.
Speaker 1: I understand why fandom acts the way it does, and
Speaker 1: I don't really think you can control that. I don't
Speaker 1: think you can control masses of people reacting to images.
Speaker 2: These are people who adore her, who's been following her
Speaker 2: for a long time. They see the transformation and they
Speaker 2: talk about it. So it's hard to avoid that. It's
Speaker 2: hard to not you know, I'm not saying you should
Speaker 2: allow people to say that because social media people come
Speaker 2: and say, well, it's understandable, but it's understandable why they
Speaker 2: do it, because I read a ton of comments and
Speaker 2: they're concerned, they're fans concerned. I'm sure a lot of
Speaker 2: them are also bitchy. Yes, yes, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: mean comments. There's there are mean comments everywhere all the time.
Speaker 2: And people were just making mean comments because they can.
Speaker 2: They go on the computer and they do it.
Speaker 1: But I just want to say, from experience and I
Speaker 1: have seen this is people will address a celebrity that
Speaker 1: they think has an eating disorder, but they will do
Speaker 1: it in the most flippant manner. She needs to eat
Speaker 1: a sandwich, that sort of thing, And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: is that concern right, because that just sounds like you're
Speaker 1: being a bitch. It just sounds like you're being judgmental,
Speaker 1: and I do want to call out because I told
Speaker 1: them I.
Speaker 2: Would quote them.
Speaker 1: Today Nathan in our comments section made a point I'm
Speaker 1: not going to quote them directly because I don't have
Speaker 1: it in front of me, but they said, if you
Speaker 1: are expressing concern about someone you will never meet, that's
Speaker 1: just gossip. And I told I was like, I am
Speaker 1: going to quote that, because that's it exactly. You can
Speaker 1: talk about your quote unquote concern, but it's couched almost
Speaker 1: always in flippant, snarky social media type commentary that there's
Speaker 1: no way that's helping her. There's no way in hell
Speaker 1: that's helping her.
Speaker 2: Right. The problem that I have with with people presenting
Speaker 2: a certain way that it's alarming or that it's changing
Speaker 2: to the point that people make an observation is there
Speaker 2: is their team trying to forget about it or dismissive entirely.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about her specific, I'm talking about in general, the.
Speaker 1: People around her. They have a responsibility.
Speaker 2: That's the thing with celebrities that bothers me most is
Speaker 2: the fact that you all these people are on your
Speaker 2: pay road. They are afraid to say anything, They won't
Speaker 2: say anything, and then you keep going, uh, what has
Speaker 2: money to be made?
Speaker 1: It's like Bruce willis that he can't make a movie
Speaker 1: is long after it was clear he should not be
Speaker 1: on a movie set.
Speaker 2: Right, So it's whatever, whatever makes everybody money. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 2: and then they just don't talk about it, and and
Speaker 2: and you know the issue is not addressed. Uh that's
Speaker 2: the problem that I have. And when it is, it
Speaker 2: isn't done in such a light way that it's just
Speaker 2: even worse.
Speaker 1: I don't think owes anyone in explanation, not really, and
Speaker 1: I don't think her team does either. But I thought
Speaker 1: their statement was a little questionable. It was about how
Speaker 1: you know, it made a rather passive, aggressive swipe at
Speaker 1: ongoing endless scrutiny. Well, you're an international pop star and
Speaker 1: movie star, and yeah, that that endless scrutiny comes with it,
Speaker 1: So complaining about that is it's if I don't think
Speaker 1: her team should have been saying that. I think Arianna
Speaker 1: is taking a break. You know, things are intense right now. Whatever,
Speaker 1: you don't have to say whatever's going on with her.
Speaker 1: She is owed her private life.
Speaker 2: I believe that the thing is that I think that
Speaker 2: has caused more trouble is again, I always bring this
Speaker 2: up with social media. The thing is that many celebrities
Speaker 2: have come out and said that they read everything now
Speaker 2: on social media. Yep, and that can't be easy.
Speaker 1: You know, there's no a in how And she strikes
Speaker 1: me as the type that probably reads a lot about her.
Speaker 2: There's no a in how that as a celebrity, you're
Speaker 2: going to read all that stuff about you and then
Speaker 2: you're just gonna, you know, shrug it off. You can't.
Speaker 2: And then she went on stage. I actually have it
Speaker 2: in the lounge the video when she stops the show
Speaker 2: and talks about how you know what's going on and
Speaker 2: give her explanation and you know kind of thing. And
Speaker 2: again it's very it's very like, oh, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to blog all the negativity out there, and you
Speaker 2: know that kind of statement that it's very fluffy, very
Speaker 2: light and doesn't add anything to anything. Maybe not making
Speaker 2: a statement at all. Let your your PR team do it.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's a lot of denial going on
Speaker 2: and that and that's a concern. And you know, I
Speaker 2: understand why people talk about it, believe me, because I
Speaker 2: have nieces and I see what social media does to them,
Speaker 2: what influence social media has on them, like all the time,
Speaker 2: things they buy, things they want, thing they see you know, models, right,
Speaker 2: role models, all that stuff. I see it happening. So
Speaker 2: it you know, as as a public image, as a
Speaker 2: public figure, you do have some sort of responsibility. It's
Speaker 2: still your life, you know, nobody, but you are selling you.
Speaker 1: And listen again, I really want to be careful that
Speaker 1: we're not getting into criticizing her as much as we
Speaker 1: are just talking about celebrity culture here, and to note
Speaker 1: that most celebrities, female celebrities are also expected to be
Speaker 1: beauty product influencers or to talk about their beauty or
Speaker 1: to talk about their and you know our own readers
Speaker 1: have mentioned this time and time again, is that when
Speaker 1: you have female celebrities interviewed, they will get questions about
Speaker 1: their beauty, about their body, about their plans for children
Speaker 1: in ways that men don't get those questions. But by
Speaker 1: the same token, and we've all seen this is celebrities
Speaker 1: who clearly clearly have gotten some sort of work done,
Speaker 1: denying that they have and claiming that it's clean living.
Speaker 1: Celebrities that have suddenly dropped a tremendous amount of weight.
Speaker 2: They act like nothing happened, and that's while.
Speaker 1: I'm just eating healthy and working out. No, you don't
Speaker 1: need to tell us that you're on a GLP one.
Speaker 1: But I think it's irresponsible.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1: I'm not a public figure. If I ever went on
Speaker 1: like ozembic or something like that and people saw pictures
Speaker 1: of me, I'd in a flat second I'd be like, yeah, ozembic,
Speaker 1: because I think it's irresponsible. I agree if you are
Speaker 1: a figure and I'm not, But for celebrities to pretend
Speaker 1: that what you're doing is healthy when what you're doing
Speaker 1: is not healthy and it's unachievable for most people.
Speaker 2: And what bothers me most? I could be wrong. This
Speaker 2: is not about Ariana. I want to say at this point, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: But what bothers me most? And it's because you know,
Speaker 2: this has been going on for a long time with
Speaker 2: Ariana specifically, and I don't think it fair should been
Speaker 2: getting criticism and been mocked and all that kind of
Speaker 2: stuff since wicked. My point is that the whole thing
Speaker 2: erupted with the video pedal video. And I don't know,
Speaker 2: as a PR team how you can look at that
Speaker 2: video and say, oh, well, let's just go with it.
Speaker 2: It's fine and not expect. As a pr person, you
Speaker 2: go to school for that. You know, that's a job.
Speaker 2: That's your profession. It's it's to to examine things and
Speaker 2: decide if things should go on or not. I don't
Speaker 2: know how you can. I don't know how.
Speaker 1: I don't know that people can control her is in charge.
Speaker 2: She's in charge, But you hire people to make decisions
Speaker 2: with you, at least. I don't know how you look
Speaker 2: at the video and think it's okay.
Speaker 1: She looked at the video and thought it was okay,
Speaker 1: because when you have an eating disorder, you really can't
Speaker 1: see that.
Speaker 2: But somebody, somebody should have said something. Anyway, That's all
Speaker 2: I'm going to say. I'm going to be honest. I
Speaker 2: thought the video was very disturbing. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people did. Yeah, and that's all I'm going to
Speaker 2: say about it. I'm not questioning why or you know
Speaker 2: why things are the way they are and anyway, but
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a complicated issue. Uh as as Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'll bring it again as someone who has young
Speaker 2: nieces and nephews, uh I see what social media does.
Speaker 2: I see what these images out there does to them.
Speaker 2: And it's it's not as a parent, I'd be very concerned, agreed.
Speaker 1: So listen, I I hope she gets healthy, right, and
Speaker 1: she gets whatever help she needs. And I know she's
Speaker 1: not listening to us, but I hope she does come
Speaker 1: to an understanding that maybe a lot of the commentary
Speaker 1: was nasty, but people are genuinely.
Speaker 2: People are concerned. And I hope that the break that
Speaker 2: she that she's getting now is you know, to seek help.
Speaker 2: I hope.
Speaker 1: So she is a talented person, and it's I mean,
Speaker 1: I was really sad to see what she looked like
Speaker 1: now because I, as I said to you, I'm like,
Speaker 1: she is at the top of her career. She got
Speaker 1: Oscar nominee. Wait did she get an askar? Yeah, she did, right,
Speaker 1: I think right now, and you know, she's starring in movies,
Speaker 1: she's on tour like this is everything she's worked for
Speaker 1: ever since she was a Disney kid. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's probably taken a toll. You know, that
Speaker 1: kind of worked a toll on you. And I think
Speaker 1: she take a year off, I really do, and and
Speaker 1: get her head on straight and get healthy again. All right,
Speaker 1: So we're going to take a short break and then
Speaker 1: we're going to come back and.
Speaker 2: Talk about House of the Dragon.
Speaker 1: We're back, and then we're going to talk about the latest,
Speaker 1: the penultimate House of the Dragon for this season.
Speaker 2: And then I liked it. Interesting, Yeah, I liked the episode.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was my favorite episode of the season.
Speaker 1: I didn't hate it, but I think I do feel
Speaker 1: like we're getting as I said last week, we're getting
Speaker 1: into the endgame and things are just going to start
Speaker 1: getting really depressing or the wrong sorts of people are
Speaker 1: going to triumph. And we kind of saw that this week.
Speaker 1: There is no right person in this Are we cheering
Speaker 1: for right?
Speaker 2: I know?
Speaker 1: Are we cheering for Allison?
Speaker 2: This is a major first for me watching TV shows
Speaker 2: that I don't give a fuck about these people. I
Speaker 2: want them all dead. They're horrible. This is the first
Speaker 2: time I watched a TV show that I really don't
Speaker 2: care about anybody.
Speaker 1: I think the whole last season is just gonna be
Speaker 1: watching every single one of them get the immolated on screen.
Speaker 2: Real horrible, horrible.
Speaker 1: The thing about this episode, I'm not criticizing it, but
Speaker 1: I did feel like, Okay, one of the things I've
Speaker 1: said all season long is they're doing a great job
Speaker 1: of bouncing from place to place to place and keeping
Speaker 1: everything straight. And that's all largely still true. But this
Speaker 1: was the first episode of the season where I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, there is entirely too much story going on.
Speaker 2: There's just too much.
Speaker 1: We need to you know, kill some characters off so
Speaker 1: we can winnow this down to you know, a more
Speaker 1: understandable plot. But pardon me once again, I'm going to reiterate.
Speaker 1: They are really making right near a look like the
Speaker 1: shittiest queen whoever.
Speaker 2: Sat on a throne.
Speaker 1: And it's genuinely kind of I've said this before. Interesting
Speaker 1: to me that, you know, a lot of the Song
Speaker 1: of Ice and Fire deals with the patriarchy and patriarchal systems,
Speaker 1: especially the TV shows, But every time they put a
Speaker 1: queen on a throne that they always point out while
Speaker 1: she's crazy or stupid or not suited for the role,
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, are you criticizing patriarchy or are
Speaker 1: you upholding it. Granted, I don't want to see a
Speaker 1: targarian girl boss. I mean, I think that was kind
Speaker 1: of the problem with Danaris, is that they tried to
Speaker 1: turn her into this girl boss figure and then people
Speaker 1: were like, what the hell.
Speaker 2: At least with this we're.
Speaker 1: Getting right from the jump. She should not be queen.
Speaker 2: She's bad at it. It's a tough place to be
Speaker 2: as a creator. That Okay, do you want because it's
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, do you want do you want to
Speaker 2: present women at strong you know, powerful characters? You want
Speaker 2: to go buy the books and whatever I have bit
Speaker 2: crazy bitches, or go back or go back, or go
Speaker 2: buy whatever happened at the time. You know that, you
Speaker 2: know that would be the case. I always say that
Speaker 2: at the time. It's not history. We didn't have dragons anyway.
Speaker 2: Back then, you know, women were treated like shit. They
Speaker 2: still do. But my point is that, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: that's what that's the case. You know, they wouldn't trust
Speaker 2: a queen, they wouldn't you know. I get that. I did.
Speaker 2: I think that's the message here. Maybe she and.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by this at all,
Speaker 1: but she is portrayed as simply bad at her job.
Speaker 1: She is dismissing all sorts of concerns. She's focusing on
Speaker 1: stupid shit that does not matter at all and is
Speaker 1: threatening to, you know, unseat her. That scene with the
Speaker 1: dragons with the four dragons Fike off, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: first off, I was like really getting tense, and it's
Speaker 1: funny because, like you said, I want all these people dead.
Speaker 1: Not like I care, but I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: someone's gonna die. One of these dragons is going to die.
Speaker 1: And but it also shows I did think that scene
Speaker 1: was fascinating because these people are just riding around on
Speaker 1: nuclear bombs and acting like they can control them, and
Speaker 1: then they can barely control them. And I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess it's a testament to their targarian blood that nobody
Speaker 1: got killed in that scenario, but that they were able
Speaker 1: to calm those dragons down. But it really did drive
Speaker 1: home the point that, holy shit, these things should not
Speaker 1: exist in the world. There's no way people can be
Speaker 1: free if there's people riding around on these things.
Speaker 2: The thing about RAINI and that I find fascinating is
Speaker 2: that it's not that she's just, you know, a bad
Speaker 2: queen meaning like this she's a horrible queen person, is
Speaker 2: that she really doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. No,
Speaker 2: she doesn't listen to people. That's the problem is she's
Speaker 2: very insecure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's really which I think is an interesting character point,
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. Yeah, I mean that's well written
Speaker 1: as a character.
Speaker 2: It is interesting because she is constantly rely on people's opinion,
Speaker 2: you know, and she needs that all the time. Do
Speaker 2: people tell her that she's doing a good job. In fact,
Speaker 2: when she had that conversation with Helena, she's pretty much
Speaker 2: bagging Helena too. Yeah, to tell her that that in
Speaker 2: one of her dreams she's gonna be she thought that
Speaker 2: she's an amazing queen kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. But the series has decided to
Speaker 1: set a Rainier and Alison against each other. I mean,
Speaker 1: so did the books, but they have made their whole
Speaker 1: thing central to the entire series. And it is interesting because,
Speaker 1: as you point out, Rainier is very insecure, and that
Speaker 1: actually makes a lot of sense because she has spent
Speaker 1: her entire life trying to justify herself to everyone around
Speaker 1: her because they didn't believe.
Speaker 2: That she was old what she thought she was old.
Speaker 1: On the flip side of that is Allison, who has
Speaker 1: largely been passed around and ignored. I mean, she was
Speaker 1: married off at like thirteen to an old man who
Speaker 1: was dying, and then she was forced to have like
Speaker 1: how many of his kids. But within that system where
Speaker 1: no one expected anything of her or no one was
Speaker 1: paying attention to her, she actually developed all these skills
Speaker 1: where she actually would have been a great queen.
Speaker 2: She could have sat on that throne. So she's a
Speaker 2: smart woman.
Speaker 1: She's smart, and she she's not insecure the way Ranira is.
Speaker 2: What I love about Alison is that she really knows
Speaker 2: what's going on around her. She does. She understands everything,
Speaker 2: and she tries her best to manipulate it.
Speaker 1: I think she's a piece of shit though, oh yes, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not.
Speaker 2: Saying she's a good person, but she is very intelligent.
Speaker 2: She is, she understands, she can read a room like
Speaker 2: nobody else. Yes, and she you know, she plays all
Speaker 2: the cards for the most part.
Speaker 1: Right, She's more interesting to watch at the moment because
Speaker 1: she is a character without power who's trying to survive.
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's more interesting than a person with
Speaker 1: super power who's fucking up everything they do.
Speaker 2: I know. The whole thing about her traveling to kill
Speaker 2: her son, yeah, I mean, come on, that is just like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna kill all my son because you know this,
Speaker 2: this is my plan let's we'll get to that in
Speaker 2: a bit.
Speaker 1: I do want to talk about Aimon and that, oh,
Speaker 1: that really interesting sex scene, but let's talk about Helena, right,
Speaker 1: the most.
Speaker 2: Tragic figure on this entire nerves.
Speaker 1: She's getting on your nerves because she's depressed. And I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure, and I'm I'm not basing this on book stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I'm pretty sure she is ending
Speaker 1: it soon. I don't think this one's sticking around.
Speaker 2: They keep saying.
Speaker 1: I read I don't know if she's gonna have this
Speaker 1: baby go ahead.
Speaker 2: I read online that the the dreams were sort of
Speaker 2: like forcing her death, and that she's going to die,
Speaker 2: that she see her dying. That's why she's with the
Speaker 2: whole family.
Speaker 1: You probably shouldn't given that spoiler or what people are
Speaker 1: specul Oh, okay, no, it's not a fact. That is
Speaker 1: one character who's fate I'm not really sure about. I
Speaker 1: do know most of the major ones, but I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure what happens to Helena. So but I do think, yes,
Speaker 1: they are. She's clearly very very depressed.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: And and I don't think she's long for this world.
Speaker 2: Uh, this is what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's just we're gonna start checking off names because people
Speaker 1: gotta die. I mean, if do you really think there's
Speaker 1: gonna be one big, happy ending where everyone gets together
Speaker 1: at Kingsling.
Speaker 2: Now most of this cast is dead. I'm just saving
Speaker 2: my champagne when Damon dies because I want them on
Speaker 2: the dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can stand that.
Speaker 1: Kidding like, he's the worst. He's worse than Aimond.
Speaker 2: Ah probably, I don't know, he's terrible.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Aimond and Alice are full on oh my
Speaker 1: god crazy, Yeah, and he apparently I think the implication
Speaker 1: that's because I think some people misread that scene and
Speaker 1: thought that Alice the Witch was giving him that that.
Speaker 2: Vision of his mother.
Speaker 1: But I think he was having a premonition of her arrival.
Speaker 1: I think he's a dreamer, just like his sister Helene
Speaker 1: is he is. I think he is actually Okay, gotta
Speaker 1: stop giving away, but I think he is.
Speaker 2: Based on I'm just running the whole thing through my
Speaker 2: head here, think I think, yes, I think he is.
Speaker 1: Because Alice didn't know what the hell he was looking at.
Speaker 1: It makes sense because the whole thing happened, and not
Speaker 1: only that, but he he envisioned her in the exact
Speaker 1: outfit that she shut up in three minutes later.
Speaker 2: And the language that is, you know the conversation yet,
Speaker 2: And it got.
Speaker 1: All tied up with his own feelings for his mother,
Speaker 1: because I don't think she shares that. I don't think
Speaker 1: she wants to sleep with him at all. I know
Speaker 1: that vision made it sound like she was into it.
Speaker 1: But he tried to kiss her, or he did kiss
Speaker 1: her when he left for Heronhall, and she was repulsed
Speaker 1: by it. So it's very much he had a vision
Speaker 1: that got tied up with his own psycho sexual feelings
Speaker 1: about his mother and it turned into a sex dream.
Speaker 2: But I wouldn't put what I wouldn't put that path
Speaker 2: her Alison, she doing anything, I remember.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was a little confused by that scene
Speaker 1: because they made it look like she was into it,
Speaker 1: and I was like, is she into this? I didn't
Speaker 1: think she was into this, not yet. There's enough incest
Speaker 1: on this show to go around the whole Valerian family
Speaker 1: is now all the men in that family are going
Speaker 1: after one poor girl in that family.
Speaker 2: But one thing I didn't know. Maybe people know that
Speaker 2: she brought that sir whatever his name is, to kill him.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah he was the assassin. Yes, sir, she wasn't
Speaker 1: going to do with her.
Speaker 2: So Adrian read for I believe. Yeah, I didn't know
Speaker 2: he was there. I thought he was there just protect her.
Speaker 2: That's why she yes, she was.
Speaker 1: She went to get the knife off of him, and
Speaker 1: then she saw the And again we say that Alison
Speaker 1: is smart, but I mean everyone on the show is
Speaker 1: so fucking stupid. So she poisons him. First off, she
Speaker 1: at Haron Hall. It is very clear that whatever's going
Speaker 1: on with her son and that mysterious woman is not good.
Speaker 1: And also that mysterious woman is clearly the witch, not
Speaker 1: an idiot, like she can see what's going.
Speaker 2: On around her.
Speaker 1: And when she realized, she should have realized that, you know,
Speaker 1: I can't just be reckless here. I have to play
Speaker 1: my cars closed it. But instead she's like, no, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna put poison him. And then Lee, this
Speaker 1: is the part where I'm like, you deserve to die.
Speaker 1: You're so stupid, like I don't know know, why would
Speaker 1: you leave before the job is done?
Speaker 2: And where are you going? That's the thing. Two things.
Speaker 1: Does she even have a horse? She just leapt and
Speaker 1: I'm like, you have your dressed like a queen and
Speaker 1: you're just gonna like wander the King's road on a
Speaker 1: dressed like that.
Speaker 2: I had the same First of all, I was like,
Speaker 2: all right, is he dead?
Speaker 1: No? It should have killed both of them. She was
Speaker 1: stupid about it.
Speaker 2: So I guess she just poisoned him so she could
Speaker 2: run away. I guess no, I think she. I think
Speaker 2: she killed him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she tried to kill him, but clearly
Speaker 1: he stumbled on Alice and she was like, oh idiot,
Speaker 1: Like she's gonna cure him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's my take on it. And then
Speaker 2: she closed the door, and I'm like, where you're going?
Speaker 2: Where are you going?
Speaker 1: How far do you think you're gonna go?
Speaker 2: Did you call like castles?
Speaker 1: I don't have, Like I know, you know, the sightline
Speaker 1: of a castle is pretty large. They that's why castles
Speaker 1: are built. So where are you going that you're not
Speaker 1: going to be caught?
Speaker 2: She's waiting for Ruber? What else? Uh? I gotta say?
Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure this isn't in the books, But
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't love the Missoria right near
Speaker 1: a thing where they're I mean, it ended with them
Speaker 1: in bed right, and I just I'm like, I get it.
Speaker 1: I guess you have to have more sex because it's
Speaker 1: not a very sexy show all things considered, House of
Speaker 1: the Dragon was a sexier show, although it was also
Speaker 1: a rapier show. So okay, we don't have many sex
Speaker 1: scenes on this show, and this wasn't really all that
Speaker 1: you know, graphic. They didn't take their clothes off or anything.
Speaker 2: But I don't love it.
Speaker 1: I just think it adds more complications to the story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't see, that's already too damn a complicated.
Speaker 2: I think that's maybe the show is trying to point
Speaker 2: out that that's her way of controlling uh Rainier. You know.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean she had that scene and it was
Speaker 1: an interesting scene, uh with her former wore friends who
Speaker 1: basically said, you know, you're always going to be You're
Speaker 1: always going to be horring these holes, And maybe that
Speaker 1: was a response to that where she was like, all right,
Speaker 1: well I'm going to use the tools that I had.
Speaker 1: I think that would have been could have been explicated
Speaker 1: a little better or illuminated.
Speaker 2: A little better.
Speaker 1: But I just am not loving and obviously I have
Speaker 1: no problems with a queer or queer you know whatever.
Speaker 1: But I just I'm like, this is complicating it further
Speaker 1: than it needs to go. There's so much going on,
Speaker 1: there's so many agendas, there's so many relationships, and we
Speaker 1: just didn't need to add another one to the to
Speaker 1: the list. And I actually thought Massaria was more interesting
Speaker 1: when she was whispering in her ear rather than when
Speaker 1: she's you know, eating round whoa, all right, okay, please anyway,
Speaker 1: It's fine. I'll see where it goes, but I think
Speaker 1: it's one of the least interesting developments. One of the
Speaker 1: more interesting developments is a gone don't you think? Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: got his dragon?
Speaker 2: That was awesome.
Speaker 1: It's funny because this show gives you these incredibly triumphant
Speaker 1: moments for people that you do not want to be cheering, Like,
Speaker 1: he's horrible, but that scene was actually kind of funny.
Speaker 2: He's horrible, but he's actually funny. The actor is really funny.
Speaker 2: It's funny. And he's getting patient, like getting patient and
Speaker 2: not taking any shit because I do find it only
Speaker 2: to real because he is the king, so you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, so he gets impatient.
Speaker 1: Yeah he thinks like a king. That's a thing, right,
Speaker 1: It does not he does not. You look at Agon
Speaker 1: and he's like, I am a king. I will bow
Speaker 1: to no one. I will do I, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: even if it means my death. And I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to pain him as an moral figure or you know,
Speaker 1: someone to admire. And then you have her, who is
Speaker 1: just questioning everything, not listening to any advisors, defensive about everything.
Speaker 2: She's really not suited.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying he is, because he's kind of a monster,
Speaker 1: but at least he embraces his role, and it does
Speaker 1: tend to make him appear more more likely to sit
Speaker 1: on that throne than her. I mean, but that scene
Speaker 1: was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: Now, I like the scene.
Speaker 1: I like Thailand, and I liked Thailand a lot. It's funny,
Speaker 1: and I don't know where Lara's strong. He just wandered
Speaker 1: off and actually that was a mistake.
Speaker 2: That was a mistake.
Speaker 1: You wound up bed mouthing that time. And now he's
Speaker 1: got he's got his dragon back. So I don't know
Speaker 1: what the hell's going on there?
Speaker 2: Your barbecue next? What the hell's Cory forgot to talk
Speaker 2: about the fingers?
Speaker 1: Valarian? Yeah, got his finger cut off. Yes, so we
Speaker 1: thought last week he might be dead, but he's not.
Speaker 1: Wormon High Tower has him locked up and sent his
Speaker 1: finger to his son.
Speaker 2: I know, we'll see, we'll see what happens with that.
Speaker 2: I mean, he clearly is not gonna allign with us.
Speaker 2: His name Ormond, Uh you know.
Speaker 1: Well, I think Ormond's point about peeling the Valerians off
Speaker 1: from right nears uh you know, camp or whatever. And
Speaker 1: I don't think he can get them on his side,
Speaker 1: but he can get them to stop fighting for And
Speaker 1: I don't know that Corliss, his son is well versed
Speaker 1: enough in geopolitics to understand that that's what's going on there.
Speaker 1: So I think he's probably going to panic and be
Speaker 1: like and pull out. The thing is, it was very
Speaker 1: interesting watching that council meeting because everybody in that council
Speaker 1: hates Rhania, Right, how does she?
Speaker 2: How do you?
Speaker 1: And she seems completely clueless about this that the only
Speaker 1: person at the council who doesn't hate you is Damon
Speaker 1: and he's arguing with everything that comes out of your mouth.
Speaker 1: The other ones are rolling their eyes at you.
Speaker 2: I think that's that's the point that what's her name
Speaker 2: Massaria was trying to make.
Speaker 1: She has no good counsel at all.
Speaker 2: She should fire all of those people.
Speaker 1: But frankly, I'm I I did wonder during that meeting.
Speaker 1: I'm like, can any these people quit? Because if I
Speaker 1: were in any of these people, I would just quit.
Speaker 2: But who knows? She might have them killed if she
Speaker 2: if they quit. Oh yeah, she's the king. It's not
Speaker 2: a democracy. The whole thing with Adam and Allen, this
Speaker 2: whole thing they're both falling in love for again, what
Speaker 2: interested in this?
Speaker 1: Like, okay, what fuck your niece? But language langwitch, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but it is. I'm like, all right, I guess when when?
Speaker 2: Which way?
Speaker 1: Adam is the one that sits on the council and
Speaker 1: Alan is the one that rides the dragon, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: So when Adam kissed her, I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: guess so. But actually I remember thinking. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh I thought the other one had a crush on her.
Speaker 2: They both do.
Speaker 1: And you all get away from your knee, says you
Speaker 1: weird right.
Speaker 2: Now, seriously, stop stop fooling around with your family member.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but in speaking of the dragon seeds, it
Speaker 1: looks like alf Ulf has turned. He's now with worms
Speaker 1: Camp and Raniera. You screwed that big time. I don't
Speaker 1: know what's happening with Hugh the Hammer, but he is
Speaker 1: stuck in that what is it called Tumbleton and his
Speaker 1: wife wants nothing to.
Speaker 2: Do with him, So I know that's a shame. He's
Speaker 2: so cute.
Speaker 1: He's cute, but come on, he's gonna turn and go crazy.
Speaker 1: He can come here to feel a do He is
Speaker 1: cute and he's actually cuter in the wig. It's in
Speaker 1: your life anyway? Who else did oron Bayla? I mean,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, blah, what a mess. I feel like that
Speaker 1: we've seen the last of Lady Jane and I'm like, oh.
Speaker 2: Lady Jane, but that's rain and rain is the one
Speaker 2: with the dragon you're talking about. Baila is a trio. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he said everybody wants, but Raina is the one with
Speaker 2: the dragon. And now, yeah, god knows what. I really
Speaker 2: don't Radia gonna do with her.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna give anything away because I do know
Speaker 1: what happened to the character that she's based on. But
Speaker 1: the character that she's based on was not Damon's daughter.
Speaker 1: Well I'm daughter changes that storyline, so I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't actually know where they're going with that. We'll see
Speaker 1: I'm assuming her dragon's dead.
Speaker 2: They can actually die on camera, I don't know who knows. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's actually.
Speaker 1: Hard to what says dragons at each other, even though
Speaker 1: I know they're not real.
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting in general. I thought the
Speaker 2: episode was interesting.
Speaker 1: I do think this, like entire season, has been an
Speaker 1: improved when over the last one. I when we started
Speaker 1: the season, I was like, I'm really not into it,
Speaker 1: But I'm into it and I'm ready to see this
Speaker 1: all the way through. Very interested to see what kind
Speaker 1: of finale they have next week because last year's finale
Speaker 1: or two years ago was a big letdown, so.
Speaker 2: I hope to have the budget for this one.
Speaker 1: Well, it does seem like everything's moving towards a battle
Speaker 1: like that confrontation between right near and ormand high Tower.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, yeah, and somewhere in the middle of that
Speaker 1: is Alison, who also is a high tower.
Speaker 2: So we'll see, we'll see. I have to say it's
Speaker 2: still beautiful. Clearly they spend a lot of money on it.
Speaker 2: Everything looks incredible. Yeah, it's a great show to watch
Speaker 2: visually beautiful and it's getting better. I watch it for
Speaker 2: a listen. Alison, Alison, Olivia Cook. I know Alison, she's
Speaker 2: she's my favorite character.
Speaker 1: I know, all right, So let us know what your
Speaker 1: favorite character is. Let us know if we screwed up
Speaker 1: the conversations about anti semitism and eating disorders. This is
Speaker 1: a very lighthearted hour of talk, and we'll be back
Speaker 1: next week with whatever across our eyes across our desk.
Speaker 1: We'll be back on Friday because we're watching practical Magic.
Speaker 1: I think we all need a little lateness right now,
Speaker 1: watching practical Magic for the b k MC. And we'll
Speaker 1: be back next week with a cross across our desks.
Speaker 1: Until then, let you meet up.
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye