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<v Speaker 1>Well whiskey, come and take my pay the money. They

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<v Speaker 1>Oh why.

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<v Speaker 2>Why think alone when you can drink it all in

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<v Speaker 2>with Ricochet's three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders, Steve Hayward,

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<v Speaker 2>John U and the International Woman of Mystery, Lucretia.

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<v Speaker 1>Where this laps it up? And David, ain't you easy

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<v Speaker 1>on the show taps? Gotta give me and let.

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<v Speaker 2>That whiskey flo It's the three whiskey Happy Hour, but

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<v Speaker 2>only two whiskeys on hand at the moment because John

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<v Speaker 2>U is away today. So for the first part of

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<v Speaker 2>today's episode, it's just me and Lucretia. We're gonna kick

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<v Speaker 2>around some news and then we're gonna have a very

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<v Speaker 2>special guest taking John's place. And oh my god, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>just say that for now as a placeholder, But can I.

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<v Speaker 3>Just tell everybody that here we are. We're actually in

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<v Speaker 3>John's office at his underground bunker in Berkeley. It's actually

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<v Speaker 3>not It's got a beautiful view of everywhere from a

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<v Speaker 3>high high spot. But I'm steering here at his bottle

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<v Speaker 3>of fifteen year old Glenn Livit. But we have to

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<v Speaker 3>go teach a class, so I'm I am not imbibing

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<v Speaker 3>in John's without permission. In John's fifteen year old Glenn livit.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we could come at the end of the day

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<v Speaker 2>if we wanted, except we have to take our special guests.

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<v Speaker 3>Buying it myself. It just happens to be here right now, true,

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<v Speaker 3>really use it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, we're here, actually, you know, deep behind the enemy lines,

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<v Speaker 2>teaching a class on natural law and constitutional interpretation, supposedly.

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<v Speaker 3>Property law and property rights.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, okay, well, you know, we'll we'll we'll reveal all

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<v Speaker 2>very shortly. But as we are, we were in class

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<v Speaker 2>all morning and during breaks, and you know, checking social

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<v Speaker 2>media afterwards, we realize that the world is not quite

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<v Speaker 2>literally blowing up, and Washington is because of this very

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<v Speaker 2>dramatic public in what do you say, public blow up

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<v Speaker 2>between Trump and Vice President Vance and Zelenski at the

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<v Speaker 2>White House. And I haven't caught up the whole thing,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm seeing some very interesting things on social media,

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<v Speaker 2>both about A what happened and B what it means.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think you have too, Ucretia.

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<v Speaker 3>I have, and I'm one of the things that I

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<v Speaker 3>think I reposted. I don't think I was clever enough

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<v Speaker 3>to come up with this on my own, but it

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<v Speaker 3>was basically the point that watch watch who cheers for Zelenski,

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<v Speaker 3>and watch who cheers for Trump? And you will know

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<v Speaker 3>everything you need to know about who's a deep state corrupt.

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<v Speaker 3>There are a lot of adjectives, my kind of adjectives

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<v Speaker 3>that I use in private, not as much on the

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<v Speaker 3>three whiskey happy Hour, but that they were basically the

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<v Speaker 3>corrupt pigs feeding at the corrupt public trough. Along with

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<v Speaker 3>that diminutive little dictator Vogue dictator in his ugly stupid

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<v Speaker 3>T shirts or whatever it is he thinks he's wearing.

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<v Speaker 3>He could have had the decency to show up at

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<v Speaker 3>the White House in the Oval Office wearing a suit.

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<v Speaker 3>I saw somebody. Mark hem Way actually mentioned that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>he thinks anybody who goes to the Oval Office should

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<v Speaker 3>wear a suit, and that goes for Elon Musk too.

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<v Speaker 3>But here's my argument. Do you remember, Steve, a few

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<v Speaker 3>years back, we went to a black tie affair and

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<v Speaker 3>I think I think you were there. It was in

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<v Speaker 3>NEWPORTA or somewhere like that, and we sat next to

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<v Speaker 3>a lovely, absolutely lovely, charming, elderly gentleman who had invented

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<v Speaker 3>some a very very important medical device. It is very

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<v Speaker 3>has been, you know, very salutary, and you know is

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<v Speaker 3>now a big philanthropist and was a donor there. And

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<v Speaker 3>he came in chinos and a hoodie. And you know what,

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<v Speaker 3>he can do that. And I say, Elon Musk can

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<v Speaker 3>show up like that to the to the Oval Office,

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<v Speaker 3>but Zelensky, the little scum that he is, cannot.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, So dress codes, okay, dress coats to the old Office.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm down for that, can I One thing you pointed

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<v Speaker 2>out to me is that and I've seen this other

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<v Speaker 2>people on Twitter point this out.

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<v Speaker 4>That apparently a lot of Democrats and you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, Victorian Newland and all the usual suspects. We're all

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<v Speaker 2>telling Zelenski, don't be bullied by Trump. You should stand

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<v Speaker 2>up to him, and and and so, first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure they probably meant behind closed doors. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that about this that makes it

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<v Speaker 2>so extraordinary but also not extraordinary for Trump is that

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<v Speaker 2>they let this argument play out with the whole world

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<v Speaker 2>watching broadcast on live television, rather than having their sharp

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<v Speaker 2>words behind closed doors, which is the way you would

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<v Speaker 2>normally do it.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think that is helpful to Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>The second thing is think about that advice that Zelenski

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<v Speaker 2>was given. It comes on the heels of two European

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<v Speaker 2>leaders Sarkozy and then Kures Starmer making nice to Trump.

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<v Speaker 4>Now they hate him. Well, I mean, I at.

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<v Speaker 3>Least the public face of it was and Stummer did

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<v Speaker 3>bring him the invitation to come back.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly they you know, I mean, who knows what they

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<v Speaker 2>was said behind closed doors, but in public they were.

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<v Speaker 4>They couldn't have been nicer and more flat.

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<v Speaker 2>And I gather, well, okay, but look, I mean again,

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<v Speaker 2>I gonna have to watch the whole thing. But supposedly, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>Trump was trying to be gracious and gives a Lensky

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<v Speaker 2>off rance, which Lensky didn't take. My bigger theme here

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<v Speaker 2>and then I'll stop is I've been working in my

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<v Speaker 2>mind for a while about how the Democratic Party. What's

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<v Speaker 2>the old joke as Republicans are the stupid party. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>Democrats are much stupider. Well, I can sort of go.

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<v Speaker 4>Down the list. I mean, actually, let me go through

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<v Speaker 4>this progression. It won't take very long.

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<v Speaker 2>They hate Ralph Nader because they think he cost al

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<v Speaker 2>Gore the election in two thousand. I say, okay, that's plausible.

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<v Speaker 2>It might not be correct, but it's plausible who made

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<v Speaker 2>Ralph Nader famous? Democrats? Did Jimmy Carter thought of putting

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<v Speaker 2>him in his cabinet? Uh oh?

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<v Speaker 4>Whenever.

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<v Speaker 2>The rule around Washington the seventies was, if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to get media attention for hearing, you invite Ralph Nader

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<v Speaker 2>as a witness and the mediable.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, they made him into the.

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<v Speaker 2>Celebrity that he was, and they got bitten in the

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<v Speaker 2>rear end by him in the two thousand election.

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<v Speaker 4>Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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<v Speaker 2>You can say kind of the same thing in certain ways.

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<v Speaker 2>I could go down the list. Joe Biden is the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest blunder, right. They foisted Joe Biden on us, wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>push him out, and now, of course they bitterly regret it,

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<v Speaker 2>and the hatred towards Joe Biden is only going to

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<v Speaker 2>grow as time goes on.

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<v Speaker 4>I love all this.

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<v Speaker 2>And now a bunch of leading Democratic thinkers told Zelensky, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't let Trump bully you should stand up to him. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>not like that, I mean, regardless of the merits of

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<v Speaker 2>the whole matter, whatever you think, that was absolutely idiotic

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<v Speaker 2>for him to have done.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so Steve won't.

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<v Speaker 4>Like this because I'm a squish.

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<v Speaker 3>I no, no, no, because she's a lovely woman and

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<v Speaker 3>I like everything else about her. But I like the

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<v Speaker 3>rest of the New York posts. Their support for Ukraine

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<v Speaker 3>has been unthinking and you know that. Yeah, they really

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<v Speaker 3>do have a Ukrainian flag on their front page, for

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<v Speaker 3>God's sake. And they also publicly came out yesterday telling Zelensky,

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<v Speaker 3>you need to get up there and push Trump. And

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<v Speaker 3>the message to Trump was the American people are are

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<v Speaker 3>strongly in favor of a continued war in Ukraine, continued

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<v Speaker 3>support for Ukraine, I should guess, you should say. And

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<v Speaker 3>they were manifestly wrong about that, both about the fact

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<v Speaker 3>that Americans support, especially Republicans, but that Americans support continued

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<v Speaker 3>payments to that kleptocracy and the corruption there, and that

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<v Speaker 3>they would care if if Trump did what was necessary,

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<v Speaker 3>even if it meant negotiating directly with Putin, Where's my

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<v Speaker 3>Pearls to end the war and bring about peace. When

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<v Speaker 3>Trump says that he watches what happened there and the

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<v Speaker 3>millions of Russians and Ukrainians who have died and suffered

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<v Speaker 3>and so on, he means it. That's not just rhetoric.

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<v Speaker 3>Steve and too many other people want to put this

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<v Speaker 3>into some large your historical GLEO GEO Global contact. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 3>it's been a long day. That really doesn't apply. This

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<v Speaker 3>isn't the Soviet Union. We're not in the Cold War

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<v Speaker 3>any longer. Europe doesn't have anything to fear from a

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<v Speaker 3>an embolden Russia that's going to take over all of

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<v Speaker 3>Eastern Europe and then Western Europe. I mean, none of

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<v Speaker 3>those things matter, and the damn war move on. Get

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<v Speaker 3>both of them at the table and see what happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Two interesting pieces of writing caught my eye this week.

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<v Speaker 2>One the most maybe not the most surprising, but the

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<v Speaker 2>one was The Guardian or the graniad Is. They had

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<v Speaker 2>an article a few days ago by Simon Jenkins. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know much about him, but he's one of their

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<v Speaker 2>pillar writers and it said, you know, I may not

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<v Speaker 2>like Trump advance, but they maybe write about this Ukraine

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<v Speaker 2>business and about Europe and NATO and the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the Cold War.

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<v Speaker 4>I thought that's interesting for where it appeared.

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<v Speaker 2>Second are my old friend and colleague Danny Pletka, in

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<v Speaker 2>her latest what the Hell is going On? Wrote a

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<v Speaker 2>piece a couple of days ago saying, you know, Trump

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<v Speaker 2>and Dance, they might be onto something here about Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't like how they're doing it, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>they might. There's a good chance of success. And by

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<v Speaker 2>the way, they are making Europe shape up and nothing

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<v Speaker 2>else has worked. So essentially the subtext was I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>stop yelling at him, and.

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<v Speaker 4>You would have I met to send you the piece

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<v Speaker 4>because you would have liked it. It surprised me.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it surprises me too. I never I always thought

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<v Speaker 3>she was a bright woman.

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<v Speaker 4>We'll just leave it at that.

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<v Speaker 3>A bit misguided, shall we.

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<v Speaker 2>Say, And at the post you were referring to, uh oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want.

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<v Speaker 3>To call her out on this because she's such a

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<v Speaker 3>great lady. And you know, our good friend whom we

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<v Speaker 3>missed terribly because he's not here with us today. This

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<v Speaker 3>is a shout out for you, John. I love John,

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<v Speaker 3>even though he's completely wrong on all of these things

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<v Speaker 3>having to do with Ukraine, but he's not here to

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<v Speaker 3>defend himself, so I'll leave it at that.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, we have the full spectrum here.

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<v Speaker 2>We have three different styles of whiskey we like, and

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<v Speaker 2>three different styles of Ukrainian policy.

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<v Speaker 4>Right one, right one, Well.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm happy to discuss it again if you need me to.

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<v Speaker 3>We know, okay, I do want I have a call

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<v Speaker 3>out for Mary Tobin, who is a listener and a

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<v Speaker 3>follower on X and she said, would you please take

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<v Speaker 3>this up on three Whiskey Happy Hour because there's been

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of amazing things happening with this new Trump administration,

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<v Speaker 3>but this whole business today may in fact be one

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<v Speaker 3>of the most important. So shout out to Mary Tobin.

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<v Speaker 4>We're doing it well.

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<v Speaker 2>I am again, without having had time to review the

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<v Speaker 2>whole scene, yet, I am wondering again. It's the old

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<v Speaker 2>saying attributed to Twain that he didn't say that history

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. I'm wondering if this

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the Reykievic moment of the Ukraine War story. Arc

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<v Speaker 2>By that, I mean the famous summit with Reagan and

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<v Speaker 2>Gorbichob that's supposedly ended in failure, dismal failure. It means

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<v Speaker 2>World War three is inevitable, isn't it terrible? That collapse

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<v Speaker 2>and they look grumpy and all the rest of that.

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<v Speaker 2>And you heard they fought and it turned out we

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<v Speaker 2>didn't realize till later that was the actual key moment

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<v Speaker 2>of the.

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<v Speaker 4>Whole thing, right.

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<v Speaker 3>But the one difference I think here is that I

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<v Speaker 3>don't recall after Reikievic, especially immediately after Reikievic, that anybody

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<v Speaker 3>was praising it as a great victory and moving moving

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<v Speaker 3>the situation forward with the Cold War in some sort

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<v Speaker 3>of salutary way. I don't recall that.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, not publicly.

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<v Speaker 2>It took actually within a few days there were a

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<v Speaker 2>few people said, hey, wait a minute, garbag Chop just

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<v Speaker 2>put those huge concessions on the table. And although we

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't give him his condition of getting rid of missile defense,

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<v Speaker 2>once you put out, they'll put out a position.

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<v Speaker 4>You can't take it back.

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<v Speaker 2>And that became the baseline for America. And it took

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<v Speaker 2>a year, maybe more than a year to get Garbagechopp

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<v Speaker 2>to back down on that condition.

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<v Speaker 4>But then you start to work out the details.

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<v Speaker 5>And that's no.

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<v Speaker 3>All I was saying is that maybe if there had

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<v Speaker 3>been X back in in Reagan's time, that maybe there

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<v Speaker 3>would have been more support for Reagan that would have

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<v Speaker 3>made it past the swamp into the stream media. And

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the way I mean the funny thing is,

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<v Speaker 3>so Steve and I are just kind of trying to

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<v Speaker 3>communicate this as surreptitiously as possible during the seminar today.

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<v Speaker 3>But you just see Steve's Steve's whole face lights up

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<v Speaker 3>and he's are you seeing this? Are you seeing this?

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<v Speaker 5>You know?

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<v Speaker 3>And my point is is that although I did see,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, quite a few people comment things about, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>what idiots Trump and Vands are this and that they

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<v Speaker 3>were ratio so badly by people are just thrilled to

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<v Speaker 3>death if for no other reason that Trump didn't allow ancient,

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<v Speaker 3>an ancient sort of deference to diplomacy to force him

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<v Speaker 3>to be even nice to that little I don't have

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<v Speaker 3>words and Jade Van's just come on, came over here

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<v Speaker 3>and campaigned for our opposition. You don't come in here

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<v Speaker 3>and disrespect the president like that. It was wonderful. Right again, folks,

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<v Speaker 3>let's heart, let's hear it.

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to get special badge for this, like a.

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<v Speaker 3>Mega hat. I was right about Van's hat.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that again, regardless of what people think, and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people probably don't know what they think,

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<v Speaker 2>but what I think they can perceive is the normal

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<v Speaker 2>meeting would be, oh, we're working things out, We're on

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<v Speaker 2>the platitudes you got in the usual platitudes. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't see a meme that shows a defensive looking

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<v Speaker 2>Zelensky sitting next to Trump saying, and the text is,

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<v Speaker 2>last time I was here, I talked to some old guy.

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<v Speaker 4>Can I talk to him again?

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<v Speaker 1>That was good?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a different it's a different ballgame. And

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<v Speaker 2>so there we go. I think it's fun to watch.

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<v Speaker 2>What what else? I mean, we're we're been busy in class.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell you a little about that in a minute.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's been a week. It's been a good week.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I still want we haven't quite John down

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<v Speaker 3>on anything other than his belief like mine, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think Steve too on this whole business of district court judges, Oh,

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<v Speaker 3>issue these edicts from their little tiny district somewhere one

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<v Speaker 3>of ninety four districts in the United States, and try

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<v Speaker 3>to impose that whole thing on the entire country and

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<v Speaker 3>on the executive for the entire country. I just wonder

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<v Speaker 3>how much longer we're going to see this continue to happen.

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<v Speaker 3>Pretty soon they're going to get slapt down hard. Right now,

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<v Speaker 3>that hasn't really happened. I mean, this elite excuse me, Roberts. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>let me get it right. It was yesterday and we're

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<v Speaker 3>doing this on Friday. I believe it was yesterday. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>he was the the justice that took something that came

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<v Speaker 3>from whatever circuit and stayed the injunction for sending the

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<v Speaker 3>money to you.

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<v Speaker 4>All foreign eight I think could be.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I saw on on x Marco Rubio saying

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<v Speaker 3>today I haven't had time to run it down. Neither

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<v Speaker 3>has Steve, but saying that they were going to stop

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<v Speaker 3>as of the twenty eighth of February, all funding to

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<v Speaker 3>NATO and all funding to any foreign entity that was

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<v Speaker 3>not in the interests of America's security something along those lines.

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<v Speaker 3>It looked real, right, Steve, But dang, well.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to look at the fine print because that

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<v Speaker 2>last caveat is it could mean Israel still goes. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>for that and maybe a few other countries, but not

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<v Speaker 2>I saw an item that apparently we actually even send

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<v Speaker 2>some foreign aid or the money that's you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>the foreign aid bucket to China.

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<v Speaker 4>Why are we doing that? They don't need it and

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<v Speaker 4>they shouldn't have.

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<v Speaker 3>It, right since we're borrowing money from China, right at

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<v Speaker 3>least near pure adversary or that enemy we have money

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<v Speaker 3>back and then giving them money back. Yeah, I mean yes,

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<v Speaker 3>So whatever else you think about this or that particular cut,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, whether it's eure upset about anybody who's probationary

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<v Speaker 3>in the government for and most of the time that's

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<v Speaker 3>two years, not always. Some jobs are one, but some

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<v Speaker 3>of the higher ones are too. I say that those

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<v Speaker 3>are more likely than any of them to be DEI

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<v Speaker 3>hires or you know, other unsound kinds of policy initiatives.

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<v Speaker 3>So I'm okay with it now. You know, Elon says,

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<v Speaker 3>if you're actually really good, if you can make a case,

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<v Speaker 3>if then you get to stay regardless. And that's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of the way it's been across the board.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see how it goes.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The others web I saw, and I think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>genuine news story, is that a transgender surgery clinic in India

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<v Speaker 2>has had to close. Why because we were paying for

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<v Speaker 2>it through USAID? Like never mind even issues, Why are

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<v Speaker 2>we paying for anybody's clinic for any purpose in another country?

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<v Speaker 3>Last one I do want to bring up, and then

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<v Speaker 3>I know we all have to end this so we're

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<v Speaker 3>not boring people to death. But that's the taking the

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<v Speaker 3>money out of WHO, the World Health organisations. Oh yes, right,

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<v Speaker 3>you thought I was asking a question, right, And the

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<v Speaker 3>what's his name? You know, that crept guy at the

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<v Speaker 3>head of WHO. He's very upset and he says, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>we don't know what we're going to do if we

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<v Speaker 3>don't get us money back. But the support for Trump

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<v Speaker 3>doing that in the wake of their just despicable behavior

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<v Speaker 3>during COVID and so on is you know, you don't

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<v Speaker 3>expect that those kinds of things to happen because you're

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<v Speaker 3>just so used to the corruption and the inertia and

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<v Speaker 3>all those other things that ran our government for so long.

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<v Speaker 3>He seems serious. He's not giving any more money to WHO,

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<v Speaker 3>and I couldn't be happier when he finally decides to

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<v Speaker 3>stop sending money to the UN all together. Maybe next Steve,

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<v Speaker 3>I'll buy you a drink. I know, I'll buy you

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<v Speaker 3>a twenty one year old McCallen.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh okay, I'm going to start lobbying for that right away.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So let me just say you're you're going to

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<v Speaker 3>have a real treat. Some of the people who pay

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<v Speaker 3>attention to power Line probably already know who our very

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<v Speaker 3>very special guest is going to be but Steve will

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<v Speaker 3>be introducing him, so I hope you guys enjoy.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's Richard Epstein, John's freaking partner on law Talk

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<v Speaker 2>and all the rest of that. And if you ever

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<v Speaker 2>listen to law Talk or any other podcast that Richard

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<v Speaker 2>is on, including his own that he did for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time called The Libertarian, he's a handful and we

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<v Speaker 2>handle him as best we can. So without further ado,

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<v Speaker 2>let's go to Richard. All right, So now we welcome

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<v Speaker 2>our very special guest in place of John today, it's

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Epstein. Thirty minutes worth of titles and distinguishing things

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<v Speaker 2>to follow, and so we're just going to drop straight

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<v Speaker 2>in Richard, since time is short and we all have

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<v Speaker 2>to go back to class.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm particularly interested in.

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<v Speaker 2>For our audience in two of your books, one an

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<v Speaker 2>old one, one a little more recent. And the first

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<v Speaker 2>one is your book from I think nineteen ninety three

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<v Speaker 2>to ninety two, Forbidden Grounds, the Case against Employment Discrimination Laws,

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<v Speaker 2>and the title I think did you mean the title

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<v Speaker 2>forbidden Grounds meaning this is a question that is forbidden?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean you question, right, okay? And the reason why

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to revisit the book is several reasons. One is,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the arguments of powerful arguments about the defects

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<v Speaker 2>of the Civil Rights Act are newly salient in the

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<v Speaker 2>aftermath of the Harvard and unc Affirmative Action decisions. And Second,

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<v Speaker 2>as I've mentioned to you before, your book changed the

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<v Speaker 2>mind of Lucretia's and my great teacher, Harry Jaffa, which

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<v Speaker 2>was a very rare thing to happen. And I was

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<v Speaker 2>startled and pleasantly surprised at his effusive praise for your

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<v Speaker 2>book in the Wall Street journal Man, one of the

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<v Speaker 2>few Well see he Okay, I won't go off on him.

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<v Speaker 2>But now it's been a long time since I read

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<v Speaker 2>the book, and as you always do, you get into details.

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<v Speaker 4>But is it time to say Title six? Is the

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<v Speaker 4>title six?

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<v Speaker 2>Title seven the employment discrimination laws today need to go?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I wouldn't stop there. There's also Title nine, having

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<v Speaker 5>to do with the educational institution. Yes, I thought the

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<v Speaker 5>time had never come. They should have never been used.

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<v Speaker 5>The question is why, And it's a very simple question

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<v Speaker 5>that you have to ask, is if there is free

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<v Speaker 5>entry and exit into a market that is relatively competitive,

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<v Speaker 5>will these people get to the social equiliment more rapidly

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<v Speaker 5>than a government that imposes selective commands whose content is

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<v Speaker 5>only determined afterwards, when the thing is subject to administrative

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<v Speaker 5>em bookmentation and judicial review. And the answer I've always

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<v Speaker 5>given to that question is you've got competition. They could

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<v Speaker 5>respond much more quickly to the changes in the trend.

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<v Speaker 5>So I wanted to have nothing to do whatsoever with

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<v Speaker 5>the Civil Rights Act. And this comes in the heels

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<v Speaker 5>of my taking this book written some seven years before,

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<v Speaker 5>where I gat the same kind of argument, and as

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<v Speaker 5>I recall with great effection on page two eighty one

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<v Speaker 5>of that book, I declare the New Deal unconstantitutional because

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<v Speaker 5>essentially what it tried to do was to substitute government

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<v Speaker 5>regulation for competitive markets, and that case was often through

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<v Speaker 5>monopolization of a particular industry or trade, National Labor Relations

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<v Speaker 5>Act and a Motor Vehicle Act and so forth, or

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<v Speaker 5>had strong restrictions on entry. Agricultural Act was the same thing,

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<v Speaker 5>and in all cases it led to kind of calamitous ruin.

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<v Speaker 5>So throughout the nineteen eighties what I did is I

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<v Speaker 5>started to write about the employment relationships, and in nineteen

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<v Speaker 5>eighty four I wrote an article one that has actually

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<v Speaker 5>been fairly well cited, rare called in Defense of the

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<v Speaker 5>Contracted Will in nineteen eighty four, in which what I

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<v Speaker 5>did is I explained why the contracted will was essentially

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<v Speaker 5>the desirable arrangement as opposed to compacts for four cause

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<v Speaker 5>we had to say the reason before you could fire

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<v Speaker 5>somebody in a competitive market. And I kind of half

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<v Speaker 5>danced around the civil rights laws, only half.

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<v Speaker 1>And afterwards I was done.

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<v Speaker 5>I said, well, why is this an exception to the

422
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:58.599
<v Speaker 5>general rule of contracted will that I put forward? And

423
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:00.960
<v Speaker 5>I couldn't think of a reason. And so as I

424
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.960
<v Speaker 5>continued to work on this subject, I first finished my

425
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.799
<v Speaker 5>Takings book, and then I did a long harb forward

426
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.880
<v Speaker 5>on unconstitutional conditions in nineteen eighty eight eighty nine, and

427
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.319
<v Speaker 5>then I essentially I turned to this particular subject. And

428
00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:16.720
<v Speaker 5>the more I wrote, the more convinced I became that

429
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.440
<v Speaker 5>I stumbled upon a very important insight. In part it

430
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.680
<v Speaker 5>was based upon the work that Gary Becker had done

431
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:24.039
<v Speaker 5>on the economics of discrimination.

432
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:25.759
<v Speaker 4>I'll bring up Becker, but keep going and I'll come

433
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:26.079
<v Speaker 4>back to it.

434
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.559
<v Speaker 5>I'm nineteen fifty seven saying the same kind of point.

435
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:32.400
<v Speaker 5>But what he did he was an economist, saying at

436
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.200
<v Speaker 5>the abstract level it didn't work. I was a lawyer,

437
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.799
<v Speaker 5>and so I tended to have the advantage of fifteen

438
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:39.960
<v Speaker 5>to twenty years of case law that he ignored or

439
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.400
<v Speaker 5>couldn't do because it hadn't happened yet. Plus essentially more

440
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.200
<v Speaker 5>of an idea of institutional detail that lawyers tend to

441
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.599
<v Speaker 5>have and economists tend not to have. And so I

442
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.200
<v Speaker 5>went through this thing, and I wrote first the theoretical section,

443
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:54.640
<v Speaker 5>and then I went through each of the various statutes,

444
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.400
<v Speaker 5>and one after another. I was told by many people

445
00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.599
<v Speaker 5>that this would be the end of my academic career.

446
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.000
<v Speaker 5>I said, well, perhaps, but I thought not. And the

447
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:06.680
<v Speaker 5>reason I thought not was that this book was written

448
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.000
<v Speaker 5>at a level that was so abstract and so for

449
00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:13.359
<v Speaker 5>in technical that it didn't have any obvious animis to it.

450
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.400
<v Speaker 5>And if you want to attack somebody with being essentially unscrupulous,

451
00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:18.640
<v Speaker 5>they have to do is have to be able to

452
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.839
<v Speaker 5>open up the book and find a bunch of passages

453
00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:24.839
<v Speaker 5>that you can deal with. In some cases, it's extremely troublesome,

454
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:28.559
<v Speaker 5>because even one or two passages that are inflammatory can

455
00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:30.799
<v Speaker 5>get you into trouble. For a book that's five hundred

456
00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:34.039
<v Speaker 5>pages that never quite happened. So there was actually a

457
00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:36.200
<v Speaker 5>conference that was had on the book, and people come

458
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.480
<v Speaker 5>after me one way or another, and I thought I

459
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.599
<v Speaker 5>survived with respect of what was going on.

460
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:41.880
<v Speaker 4>Well, let me come after.

461
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:42.200
<v Speaker 1>You if I could.

462
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:43.759
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I was going to bring out Becker because

463
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:45.319
<v Speaker 2>I think I've met him several times.

464
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, I knew him very well. I've figured you probably did.

465
00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:49.759
<v Speaker 2>And for listeners who don't know who Gary Becker was,

466
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.559
<v Speaker 2>he won the Nobel Prize in Economics under in nineteen.

467
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Ninety ninety one, right before Ronald Coast.

468
00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Right correct and his dissertation later his first book, The

469
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Economics of the Script Donation. I think either read or

470
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe he told me that he was told in the

471
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.920
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifties, you shouldn't you shouldn't.

472
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:08.440
<v Speaker 4>Investigate this subject.

473
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:10.480
<v Speaker 2>It will be it's a dead end for academic career

474
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.960
<v Speaker 2>to even way back in the nineteen fifties.

475
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:13.000
<v Speaker 1>This was it.

476
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:14.680
<v Speaker 5>Yes, But of course what he did is he didn't

477
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.400
<v Speaker 5>have real races as an economist. He had the X

478
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.880
<v Speaker 5>and wis right, And so what he did is he

479
00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:22.599
<v Speaker 5>started to talk about segregation in some sort of an

480
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.039
<v Speaker 5>abstract sense. And what he realized Essentially, if it's imposed

481
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:28.400
<v Speaker 5>by the state, it's going to be highly inefficient. If

482
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.839
<v Speaker 5>it's chosen by private individuals, it's likely to be efficient.

483
00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:34.400
<v Speaker 5>So the real question is could you find some kinds

484
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:36.759
<v Speaker 5>of firms for which discrimination on the grounds of race

485
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.799
<v Speaker 5>or ethnicity is going to be appropriate? In other cases not?

486
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.359
<v Speaker 5>And you sort of look at the market, and by god,

487
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.799
<v Speaker 5>it's pretty clear what the distinction is. So if you

488
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.039
<v Speaker 5>are basically in a close family business with other Korean grossers,

489
00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:53.079
<v Speaker 5>you will not admit non Korean grossers into that business,

490
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:55.440
<v Speaker 5>even though you will trade with them as strangers. And

491
00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:57.519
<v Speaker 5>so the question people ask, well, why don't they want

492
00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:00.400
<v Speaker 5>to put these people in Well, it turns out virtue,

493
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.680
<v Speaker 5>all of these economic situations are embedded in a larger

494
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.559
<v Speaker 5>social arrangement. They're members of the same church. There are

495
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.640
<v Speaker 5>all sorts of informal insurance arrangements that take old amongst

496
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:12.200
<v Speaker 5>these members. If something goes wrong to one of them,

497
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.160
<v Speaker 5>you take somebody who's a member of the firm but

498
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.559
<v Speaker 5>not of the social client behind it. This mechanism starts

499
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:19.880
<v Speaker 5>to fray and it doesn't work. So what they do

500
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.519
<v Speaker 5>is they very much cleave to this and then how

501
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:24.319
<v Speaker 5>do they do the rest of it? Or they reach

502
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.119
<v Speaker 5>out to the rest of the word by contracts for trade,

503
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.880
<v Speaker 5>and so you have a very sophisticated firm, and some

504
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:33.599
<v Speaker 5>large firm wants to do something, they hire you to

505
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:35.839
<v Speaker 5>do that particular task and then they do the outreach

506
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:38.119
<v Speaker 5>to the world. So if you understand the way firms

507
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:41.079
<v Speaker 5>are put together, it makes sense. Then you take other

508
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.160
<v Speaker 5>kinds of firms. Take a large firm like Goldman Sachs,

509
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.319
<v Speaker 5>and I remember once a partner of that place told me,

510
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:47.640
<v Speaker 5>this is the way we work.

511
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:49.480
<v Speaker 1>What we do is we.

512
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:52.279
<v Speaker 5>Are working crisis management all the time, and we have

513
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.519
<v Speaker 5>a problem that we're going to have to fix in Bangkok,

514
00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:56.720
<v Speaker 5>and we're going to assemble a team and that team

515
00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:58.880
<v Speaker 5>is going to come from six continents and going to

516
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:00.559
<v Speaker 5>have fourteen different in the cities.

517
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.319
<v Speaker 1>In the team. You decide that you.

518
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:04.960
<v Speaker 5>Won't work with anybody who is not of the X race.

519
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.440
<v Speaker 5>You can't be worked for us because we have to

520
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.319
<v Speaker 5>put together these all purpose teams. So essentially the internal

521
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.519
<v Speaker 5>norm in these large firms is a non discrimination norm.

522
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.400
<v Speaker 5>In fact, it's even more than that. In some cases.

523
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:20.000
<v Speaker 5>If you look around, then you have a large constituency

524
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 5>of X nationality, and you have a weak constituency in

525
00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:25.920
<v Speaker 5>your firm. Undoing that, what you will do is you

526
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:28.920
<v Speaker 5>will hire people to match X. Because it turns out

527
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.599
<v Speaker 5>if there's ethnic commonality, speaking the same language, sharing the

528
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:35.839
<v Speaker 5>same culture background, it's easier to make deals. So large

529
00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:38.720
<v Speaker 5>firms have a completely different ethnic on this. And so

530
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.079
<v Speaker 5>the question is what's wrong with that? And half try

531
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.000
<v Speaker 5>as I can, I can't figure out a reason why

532
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.680
<v Speaker 5>it is. That's something that everybody in the world accepts.

533
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:50.319
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it's not as though people refuse to do

534
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.559
<v Speaker 5>to a concrete and grosser or anything of the sort.

535
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.039
<v Speaker 5>If it works for everybody, why is it somehow or

536
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.799
<v Speaker 5>the illegal? And the great tragedy of trying to deal

537
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:01.720
<v Speaker 5>with the anti discrimination laws is practice that everybody wants

538
00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:04.119
<v Speaker 5>is one that's nobody allowed to have. Now, where does

539
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.640
<v Speaker 5>it really matter? The ethnic stuff is important. The most

540
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.839
<v Speaker 5>important application of this principle is with age discrimination. Okay, well,

541
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.799
<v Speaker 5>let's put it this way. You take any well organized

542
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:21.079
<v Speaker 5>voluntary institution, and there's no anti discrimination stuff. And remember

543
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:22.960
<v Speaker 5>that people who get older are the same people who

544
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.720
<v Speaker 5>were younger, So there's no obvious bias between men and women,

545
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.079
<v Speaker 5>black and white, or anything else. And there isn't a

546
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.480
<v Speaker 5>single one of these things in the university world of

547
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.920
<v Speaker 5>the business world that doesn't have a mandatory requirement policy.

548
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 1>So you're asking, why.

549
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.039
<v Speaker 5>Does everybody put this into place? And your job is

550
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.319
<v Speaker 5>now to find efficiencies with respect to this or otherwise

551
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:43.200
<v Speaker 5>it looks to be a kind of bigotry or whatever.

552
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's abundant what those.

553
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.319
<v Speaker 5>Efficiencies turn out to be. And I'll take the universities

554
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.240
<v Speaker 5>because I actually worked on this in the nineteen eighties

555
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.839
<v Speaker 5>and nineties with no success, a great tragedy in my life.

556
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.279
<v Speaker 5>And what you discover, in effect, is that universities need

557
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:01.799
<v Speaker 5>to have a faculty governance structor that is independent of

558
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:07.200
<v Speaker 5>the administration. The administration does the financial stuff, the external relationships,

559
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.799
<v Speaker 5>and all the support work, but you need to have

560
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:13.319
<v Speaker 5>faculty independence on academic matters. If you don't have a

561
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:16.960
<v Speaker 5>tenured body, you can't do that. And so you establish

562
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.200
<v Speaker 5>a situation where you consciously create a counter way to

563
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.720
<v Speaker 5>the administrative side of the building and then have this

564
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.759
<v Speaker 5>very delicate question of how you integrate the administrative side

565
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.319
<v Speaker 5>with the academic side. Well, if you're going to do this,

566
00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:32.039
<v Speaker 5>the only way it can work as a governance body

567
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:34.680
<v Speaker 5>is to be permanent, because if you could fire everybody

568
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 5>in it. It's like the National Labor Relations Act. Every

569
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:39.119
<v Speaker 5>time you see a union form, you fire all the

570
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.799
<v Speaker 5>union leaders. You never get unionized. You're not allowed to

571
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.440
<v Speaker 5>do that. So what happens here is you do this

572
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 5>and then in fact you have to get people in

573
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:50.440
<v Speaker 5>and out. And what everybody has learned by this stuff

574
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:53.880
<v Speaker 5>is that four course exit never works. So I could

575
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.960
<v Speaker 5>remember in nineteen seventy three, when I first came to Chicago,

576
00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:59.400
<v Speaker 5>the question was whether or not we extended one of

577
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.039
<v Speaker 5>my rather do colleagues another two years, as were allowed

578
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:05.480
<v Speaker 5>on the term and the Dean film Neil called the

579
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:08.079
<v Speaker 5>medium myself and several of my grave beers. I was

580
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:12.000
<v Speaker 5>last to speak, and I never spoke because what happened

581
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:14.480
<v Speaker 5>was the other two guys were good friends of this

582
00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:16.799
<v Speaker 5>fella and said, of course we want to keep him.

583
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.480
<v Speaker 5>And I'm sitting there saying to myself, I don't want

584
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.799
<v Speaker 5>to keep him, but what's the point of losing two

585
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.880
<v Speaker 5>to one when you're a junior faculty members. I just

586
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:26.920
<v Speaker 5>kept quiet, Well, now let me do that, but I'm

587
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 5>mortematic firing Lemon yeah, okay, let me.

588
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.759
<v Speaker 2>Give you the say the citizens question who was untutored

589
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.680
<v Speaker 2>in law on economics? And I'm sure you've heard it

590
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.000
<v Speaker 2>before and it is okay. It's one thing if your

591
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.279
<v Speaker 2>Goldman Sachs, you're very sophisticated, your global What if you're

592
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>a textile mill in South Carolina and you discover I mean,

593
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.480
<v Speaker 2>I remember Clarence Thomas when he was running the Evil

594
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.720
<v Speaker 2>Employment Opportunity Commission, is very dubious about disparate impact and

595
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.000
<v Speaker 2>opposed it, but said, you know, once the while, we'd

596
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.880
<v Speaker 2>find a case where the evidence was compelling that they

597
00:29:57.880 --> 00:29:59.720
<v Speaker 2>were discriminating on a basis of race.

598
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.160
<v Speaker 4>And then we' prosecution. Are you confident markets would have

599
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:04.519
<v Speaker 4>road that to the match year?

600
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:08.119
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely? In the following way. I mean, you start appointing

601
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:10.799
<v Speaker 5>a firm like that. First of all, many people who

602
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:13.079
<v Speaker 5>are of the dominant race will not work in a

603
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:16.000
<v Speaker 5>firm which engages in a discrimination.

604
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.079
<v Speaker 1>So they're going to move somewhere else.

605
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.359
<v Speaker 5>That firm, in effect, is now going to put up

606
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.359
<v Speaker 5>a sign and it's going to be able to take

607
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:24.519
<v Speaker 5>away the opponents from other places. So you say, every

608
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.279
<v Speaker 5>once in a while you find this sort of case and.

609
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.319
<v Speaker 1>The issue I'm going to ask is what's the frequency?

610
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:32.440
<v Speaker 5>And suppose you turn out that the frequency turns out

611
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.680
<v Speaker 5>to be one firm in a thousand, and then you ask,

612
00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:37.000
<v Speaker 5>well why, and it turns out there's a good reason

613
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.000
<v Speaker 5>why that firm is segregated or a bunch of biggest

614
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.599
<v Speaker 5>Let's assume that right nobody else would want to work there.

615
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.640
<v Speaker 5>So if you've got a firm, which is called biggoting,

616
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:46.440
<v Speaker 5>anybody else who would be a bigger than another firm

617
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.039
<v Speaker 5>will go there. And so the event of having a

618
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 5>firm that essentially has these peculiar preferences is it makes

619
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:55.400
<v Speaker 5>a governance process either everywhere else because you don't have

620
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.720
<v Speaker 5>these die hard resistance guys in the other place. And

621
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.440
<v Speaker 5>in fact, when you screen for firms, like in the

622
00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:05.200
<v Speaker 5>Goldman Sachs example, what is realized as you is that

623
00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:08.039
<v Speaker 5>this is a huge liability and you can't do it.

624
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.440
<v Speaker 5>So you now ask yourself, what's the better way to

625
00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:13.160
<v Speaker 5>run things. Have a thousand firms also which have a

626
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.079
<v Speaker 5>couple of diehards and make life miserable for everybody else,

627
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:18.680
<v Speaker 5>or you have nine hundred and ninety eight firms and

628
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.720
<v Speaker 5>two others who are essentially doing very bad things who

629
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:23.480
<v Speaker 5>realize that they have to trade with the rest of

630
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.119
<v Speaker 5>the market and will do so in arms length exchanges.

631
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.000
<v Speaker 5>And so still asking the wrong question and saying what

632
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:30.240
<v Speaker 5>do we do about this firm?

633
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 3>But that assumes I'm sorry, that assumes years of actual

634
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:39.119
<v Speaker 3>progress in civil rights, some of which may have actually

635
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:41.400
<v Speaker 3>some of which may have actually come about as a

636
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:43.680
<v Speaker 3>result of the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four.

637
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.400
<v Speaker 3>Because you did not answer, he's quite wait wait, wait,

638
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:54.480
<v Speaker 3>you did not answer his question about a steel miller

639
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 3>aeto textile mill in South Caroline. Sure, no, you didn't.

640
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:04.960
<v Speaker 5>You said, Look, the textile firms are a living example

641
00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:07.960
<v Speaker 5>of what goes on in that In fact, they were

642
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.119
<v Speaker 5>the only firms which there was some kind of systematic

643
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:13.400
<v Speaker 5>discrimination by law. And so the first thing to say

644
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.640
<v Speaker 5>is if there's a legal regime outside that props up

645
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:20.039
<v Speaker 5>the segregation system and prevents the entry of other firms,

646
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.400
<v Speaker 5>then you have a serious problem. But I said, this

647
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.480
<v Speaker 5>only appart with their pure competitive markets, and if in

648
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:27.720
<v Speaker 5>fact other firms wanted to come in, won't do it.

649
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.039
<v Speaker 5>So I'll give you an example of how this works.

650
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.640
<v Speaker 5>The great question you had to ask in the South

651
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.559
<v Speaker 5>was there was only one firm or one law that

652
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:38.880
<v Speaker 5>people knew in South Carolina which had an explicit racial

653
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:41.880
<v Speaker 5>discrimination opponent in it. Right, Okay, so you get rid

654
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.000
<v Speaker 5>of the stack. Why is it that the practice turns

655
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.759
<v Speaker 5>out to be uniform, that is segregation in the South.

656
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.000
<v Speaker 1>You have to figure out an answer.

657
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:50.279
<v Speaker 5>So you go back and you read ce Van Woodward, right,

658
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:51.680
<v Speaker 5>and try to figure out what he's going to say

659
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.440
<v Speaker 5>about it. The strange Korean Jim Crow and he said, Oh,

660
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.559
<v Speaker 5>I don't know why it happens, but it does happen.

661
00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.440
<v Speaker 5>He says, all social norms. Well, no, it wasn't social

662
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:02.200
<v Speaker 5>norm What happened was I learned this from my late

663
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.920
<v Speaker 5>uncle Albert. He was thinking of leaving New York City

664
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:09.519
<v Speaker 5>because you can't run a textile business on two floors,

665
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:12.559
<v Speaker 5>and he was thinking of going to South Carolina. And

666
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:14.160
<v Speaker 5>when he got there, this is where he was kind

667
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:16.640
<v Speaker 5>of told, well, you know, you may be liberal, you

668
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:18.960
<v Speaker 5>may be Jewish, but we want you to know the

669
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 5>moment you get out of line, you will find that

670
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.200
<v Speaker 5>your electric service and your gas service, and every other

671
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:27.519
<v Speaker 5>monopoly service provided by the state will be suddenly and

672
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:31.200
<v Speaker 5>mysteriously interrupted. And so what essentially they did is they

673
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:35.000
<v Speaker 5>took monopoly power over the public utilities and held that

674
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:38.160
<v Speaker 5>as a threat over everybody who wanted to integrate, and

675
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:40.640
<v Speaker 5>so nobody did it. So he had the choice of

676
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.119
<v Speaker 5>either playing the game or moving, as he did to

677
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.880
<v Speaker 5>York Pennsylvania, and so it was not an open market.

678
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:49.680
<v Speaker 5>The thing the most understand about this is if you

679
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.119
<v Speaker 5>were trying to discriminate, the worst thing you want to

680
00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:54.799
<v Speaker 5>do in nineteen fifty five is to have a public

681
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:56.839
<v Speaker 5>policy which is going to be hit by the separate

682
00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:59.440
<v Speaker 5>but equal decisions of the Supreme Court in Brown. You

683
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.079
<v Speaker 5>want to be able to do it absolutely undercover. You

684
00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:03.680
<v Speaker 5>want to have no tracks that are going to be

685
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.559
<v Speaker 5>able to trace. And the common carrier hookup was what

686
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.119
<v Speaker 5>they told him they had available, and he said, I

687
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:11.599
<v Speaker 5>don't want to play this game, and so he moved elsewhere.

688
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:13.679
<v Speaker 5>And that was true of a lot of other firms

689
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.079
<v Speaker 5>that wanted to integrate. There was a barrier to entry

690
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:18.000
<v Speaker 5>which was not fully understood at the time.

691
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, the species of an argument that I often

692
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:22.320
<v Speaker 2>make the people, which is why do they need Jim

693
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.159
<v Speaker 2>Crow laws? Why did you have to have a law

694
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:27.679
<v Speaker 2>of mandating segregation and street cars in Louisiana for example

695
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:28.920
<v Speaker 2>the Plessy case.

696
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 4>Let me come at you from a different angle on this.

697
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:36.440
<v Speaker 5>And by the way, the remember plus was a collusive lawsuit, right,

698
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.280
<v Speaker 5>and they wanted to stop it, and it was the

699
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.760
<v Speaker 5>state that imposed it. The carrier was against it.

700
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.639
<v Speaker 4>Right exactly.

701
00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:44.639
<v Speaker 2>That that's a point for Becker's what I'm saying, and

702
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.960
<v Speaker 2>for me, yes, exactly, let me come at you from

703
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:51.119
<v Speaker 2>a different point of view, which is everyone shall here

704
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:54.559
<v Speaker 2>a certain kind of libertarian say we shouldn't have discrimination

705
00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:59.159
<v Speaker 2>laws because discrimination should be allowed. The slightly more refined

706
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I serious verse that this is. Well, look, freedom of association.

707
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:04.920
<v Speaker 2>It's similar to the freedom to exclude and a property

708
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:06.119
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about yesterday.

709
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.039
<v Speaker 4>So you see where this is going.

710
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:11.639
<v Speaker 2>And freedom to associate is also implies a freedom to

711
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:14.360
<v Speaker 2>non association. So well, why can't I have a club

712
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.800
<v Speaker 2>that says no Blacks, no Jews, no women whatever. Why

713
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 2>can't I have a business that does that?

714
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, in fact, you can.

715
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.760
<v Speaker 5>Nothing's more common than all sorts of institutions today saying

716
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:26.280
<v Speaker 5>it's a women's only book group and things like that,

717
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.679
<v Speaker 5>or a men's only this kind of thing. I'm actually

718
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.760
<v Speaker 5>a member of a club which is men's only and

719
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.039
<v Speaker 5>it makes a difference, but it's not as though that's

720
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:36.239
<v Speaker 5>the only kind of club by join. And so the

721
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.760
<v Speaker 5>answer is, again, don't look at it by the individual case,

722
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:43.360
<v Speaker 5>answer the following systematic question. You have an only and

723
00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:45.920
<v Speaker 5>then you fill in the blank religion and so forth.

724
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:47.800
<v Speaker 5>And what you do is you get one hundred clubs,

725
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:50.599
<v Speaker 5>of which five percent of them are segregated on that ground.

726
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:52.679
<v Speaker 5>Or what you do is you have a law which

727
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:55.079
<v Speaker 5>integrates integration, and all of a sudden you only have

728
00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:58.239
<v Speaker 5>ninety clubs. And it turns out there are fewer opportunities

729
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.800
<v Speaker 5>for people to join open end clubs in there are

730
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:03.320
<v Speaker 5>if you don't have the statue. So again it's the

731
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:06.000
<v Speaker 5>same logic. If they're a group that want to do this,

732
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:08.360
<v Speaker 5>let them do it and the rest of us benefit.

733
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:12.159
<v Speaker 5>And remember also in these hypotheticals, there are very few

734
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.840
<v Speaker 5>people who join only one group, and they will join

735
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.880
<v Speaker 5>multiple groups, some of which go exactly the opposite way.

736
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.880
<v Speaker 5>And I think once you have that kind of associational freedom,

737
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:24.320
<v Speaker 5>it's fine. The trick is can you find a hidden

738
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.880
<v Speaker 5>barrier to entry? Which is analogous too of the situation

739
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.559
<v Speaker 5>with respect of the intelligence hooker and in the net

740
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:33.519
<v Speaker 5>choice cases right, a recent case in which they said,

741
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:35.760
<v Speaker 5>we have autonomy, we should be out a little bit

742
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.559
<v Speaker 5>anybody we want on our service. It turns out those

743
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.480
<v Speaker 5>guys with monopolies because they can control the new entry

744
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:43.760
<v Speaker 5>of any rival system by the way in which they

745
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:47.559
<v Speaker 5>run the back end of their network operation. So finding

746
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.599
<v Speaker 5>the monopoly turns out to be the key question to ask,

747
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:52.760
<v Speaker 5>not attacking the competition a.

748
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 3>Key question to ask for whom? And how do you

749
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:55.840
<v Speaker 3>enforce that?

750
00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:59.639
<v Speaker 5>Well, what happens is it's easy to enforce some kind

751
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:03.360
<v Speaker 5>of against monopolis. They're easy to identify because there's.

752
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Only one of them. And then there's an extremely long.

753
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:08.679
<v Speaker 5>Tradition which has to be respected in all these cases,

754
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:12.360
<v Speaker 5>which says these people are under they basically have the

755
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:16.199
<v Speaker 5>following obligation. They have to called a friend obligation. It

756
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:19.599
<v Speaker 5>has to be fair, reasonable and non discriminatory. And the

757
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.360
<v Speaker 5>reasonableness goes to the price so you can't jack it up,

758
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.280
<v Speaker 5>and the non discriminatory goes to the point that you

759
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:27.519
<v Speaker 5>can't pick your favorites and charge them less than you

760
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:29.920
<v Speaker 5>pick the other guy. And if you put those rules

761
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.719
<v Speaker 5>into effect, it's not going to solve every problem. And

762
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:34.519
<v Speaker 5>there are a lot of difficulties when you start to

763
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.159
<v Speaker 5>deal with people in slightly different positions and so forth.

764
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:41.360
<v Speaker 5>But that particular situation is governed the railroads and the

765
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:44.559
<v Speaker 5>telecommunication system for a long time, and what happens is

766
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:48.079
<v Speaker 5>it often overstays. It's welcome because you have a monarct

767
00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:51.239
<v Speaker 5>that start a monopolistic and then becomes competitive. You don't

768
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.960
<v Speaker 5>want to have rate regulation in that monopoly once the

769
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.320
<v Speaker 5>competitors arrive. And that's one of the problems with that

770
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.360
<v Speaker 5>neutrality in the way in which you start to deal

771
00:37:58.360 --> 00:37:59.360
<v Speaker 5>with telecommunications.

772
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:03.159
<v Speaker 2>I have one more challenge for you, and then if

773
00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:04.800
<v Speaker 2>you want to lucrety, you saving one up.

774
00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:07.800
<v Speaker 4>So last question on the subject, I think.

775
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:11.239
<v Speaker 2>Step back a bit from the law and economics and

776
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:15.320
<v Speaker 2>the parts that generate six hundred pages from you. The

777
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:18.119
<v Speaker 2>argument that's popular with a lot of our friends, again

778
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:22.360
<v Speaker 2>political theorists, not lawyers or economists, is it's the thesis

779
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:24.519
<v Speaker 2>of Chris Caldwell's book The Age of Entitlement, which I

780
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:27.440
<v Speaker 2>had some criticisms of, but his main point I think

781
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:29.280
<v Speaker 2>has a lot of merit, which is the Civil Rights

782
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:33.199
<v Speaker 2>Act of sixty four, when once you move beyond trying

783
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:38.519
<v Speaker 2>to break down discrimination, employment, whatever. It has supercharged the

784
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:43.519
<v Speaker 2>leftist idea of equity, which is different from equality right.

785
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Harvey Mansoel used to say this too. This has set

786
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.719
<v Speaker 2>up a parallel principle of constitutionalism for us. Does that

787
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:52.960
<v Speaker 2>argument have any attraction with you?

788
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 5>I mean, as a descriptive matter, it shows the peril

789
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.119
<v Speaker 5>of having the Civil Rights Act, because what happens is,

790
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:04.480
<v Speaker 5>in the beginning you mainly targeted government operations which are proper,

791
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:07.280
<v Speaker 5>and you found that there was rampant discrimination by a

792
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:10.559
<v Speaker 5>bias legislature in which there was a very small fraction

793
00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:12.679
<v Speaker 5>of backs who were part of the electorate. And so

794
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.119
<v Speaker 5>you start looking at the payment in school systems, and

795
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:17.559
<v Speaker 5>black teachers would get one third or forty percent of

796
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:20.639
<v Speaker 5>what white teachers did. And in the silent phase of

797
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:23.719
<v Speaker 5>the Civil Rights Act, before the litigation took place nineteen

798
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.920
<v Speaker 5>sixty five to nineteen seventy, all that stuff was cleaned out.

799
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:29.440
<v Speaker 1>If you then, in effect say what do we do

800
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:30.320
<v Speaker 1>here afterwards?

801
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:33.400
<v Speaker 5>The correct version, if you have the statute on the books,

802
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:36.559
<v Speaker 5>is so limited to the intentional cases of discrimination that

803
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:39.719
<v Speaker 5>our good friend Clarence Thomas did. But in the first

804
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:43.079
<v Speaker 5>of these cases, called McConnell, and Green. They basically messed

805
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:45.920
<v Speaker 5>everything up. What they said is, well, there's a prema

806
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.039
<v Speaker 5>facire case if you're a member of one race and

807
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:51.599
<v Speaker 5>somebody else gets better treatment, and then you could give

808
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:55.079
<v Speaker 5>an efficiency justification. But then people who are a member

809
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:58.199
<v Speaker 5>of a protected class can show that this is a pretext.

810
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:01.159
<v Speaker 5>Three part that well, why do you introduced the protected

811
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 5>class language that's not in the original Civil Rights Act?

812
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.480
<v Speaker 5>And what it does is it takes a race neutral

813
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:10.960
<v Speaker 5>situation and without even acknowledging the massive transformation, it turns

814
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:14.519
<v Speaker 5>this into a race specific situation where only some people

815
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:16.400
<v Speaker 5>could take the benefit of this, and then o it.

816
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:19.559
<v Speaker 5>Then you have the affirmative action problem. And this was

817
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.000
<v Speaker 5>also a collblind statute. And when it got the Briggs

818
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.440
<v Speaker 5>against stup power, what happened is they said, if you

819
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.320
<v Speaker 5>have a rational test and blacks do not do it

820
00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:32.440
<v Speaker 5>as well as somebody else's whites, Essentially, what you have

821
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:34.800
<v Speaker 5>to do is to prove that the test was needed

822
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.320
<v Speaker 5>by a business necessity, a test which became almost impossible

823
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:40.960
<v Speaker 5>to start to achieve. And so what you started to

824
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:44.239
<v Speaker 5>do was essentially to make the market inefficient because you

825
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.400
<v Speaker 5>could not use testing to figure out where people are

826
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:48.719
<v Speaker 5>and where they were going. And I mean it is

827
00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:51.159
<v Speaker 5>true in fact that you find most of these tests,

828
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:53.400
<v Speaker 5>those which have any kind of sex or race, screw

829
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.079
<v Speaker 5>or anything else in them, that if you apply the

830
00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:00.000
<v Speaker 5>business necessity test, they always fail. And so large number

831
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:03.239
<v Speaker 5>as a businesses cannot use intelligence tests or apptitude tests

832
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:05.280
<v Speaker 5>of one sort or another not to figure out where

833
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.320
<v Speaker 5>people are today. But are they going to be in

834
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.480
<v Speaker 5>our organization ten years from now? And are they going

835
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.800
<v Speaker 5>to have a leadership position? So you do as you

836
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:14.599
<v Speaker 5>make it more difficult to organize the long term firm.

837
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Now, what happens is if you don't have.

838
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:20.679
<v Speaker 5>A discrimination law, and you believe, as many firms do,

839
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.559
<v Speaker 5>that it is important to make some kind of adjustment

840
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:25.639
<v Speaker 5>so you don't have an all white firm. You get

841
00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:28.639
<v Speaker 5>rid of the affirmative action laws. That is no longer

842
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:30.800
<v Speaker 5>a problem. What you do is you set up the

843
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:32.920
<v Speaker 5>ranks and the order that you think, and you use

844
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.559
<v Speaker 5>different cutoff points for the two groups. And if there's

845
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.480
<v Speaker 5>one that's you supplemented with additional training or whatever it

846
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:40.599
<v Speaker 5>is that you think to be appropriate. And there was

847
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:43.639
<v Speaker 5>a case called Teal from nineteen eighty two where they

848
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.159
<v Speaker 5>try to do that, and a black person who is

849
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:48.400
<v Speaker 5>excluded said the entire system is worse.

850
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:50.920
<v Speaker 1>And so what you did is, instead of being able.

851
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:52.800
<v Speaker 5>To keep people in rank order within a minority group

852
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:54.960
<v Speaker 5>so you get the best first, it became a random

853
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:57.239
<v Speaker 5>choice as to who got preferred and who did not.

854
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:00.480
<v Speaker 5>So as yet another illustration where the system of regulation

855
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.639
<v Speaker 5>interfered with the operation of a firm, and the same

856
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.840
<v Speaker 5>thing is true with sex discrimination. I mean, you start

857
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:10.000
<v Speaker 5>looking at the kinds of aptitudes and desires of people

858
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:14.079
<v Speaker 5>in certain areas more fifty years ago than today, you

859
00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:17.880
<v Speaker 5>would find eighty five percent of the applicants were mail engineers.

860
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:21.239
<v Speaker 5>For example, naval engineering it was ninety seven percent. And

861
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:22.599
<v Speaker 5>if you're supposed to say, well, no, we got to

862
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:25.480
<v Speaker 5>get fifty percent from both groups because they are fifty

863
00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:28.000
<v Speaker 5>percent women fared to this firm and perfectly prevent men,

864
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.119
<v Speaker 5>you have to completely convulse the whole situation, and it

865
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:33.079
<v Speaker 5>doesn't work. So then what you do is you have

866
00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:35.760
<v Speaker 5>to seek some kind of special exemption from the way

867
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.679
<v Speaker 5>in which the thing works. You may or you may

868
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:39.840
<v Speaker 5>not get it. And it turns out if you actually

869
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:41.679
<v Speaker 5>look closely at some of these things, if you were

870
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:44.920
<v Speaker 5>a democratic administration with a democratic firm, you'd get it

871
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:47.519
<v Speaker 5>if you're a publican administrator. But if you wanted to

872
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.360
<v Speaker 5>go across the races, it turns out that these exemptions

873
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:52.880
<v Speaker 5>were much more difficult to obtain. And so you do

874
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.679
<v Speaker 5>is you give too much government power under these circumstances.

875
00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:58.800
<v Speaker 5>So my view is just take the most explosive case,

876
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.800
<v Speaker 5>women an athlete. In nineteen seventy there were very few

877
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:05.639
<v Speaker 5>women who were in athletes. By nineteen seventy two, the

878
00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.280
<v Speaker 5>number had started to change before the statutes were put

879
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:11.679
<v Speaker 5>into place, and it became a real rush because as

880
00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:15.760
<v Speaker 5>institutions like Harvard and Columbia integrated, they have women and

881
00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:18.360
<v Speaker 5>men in the same classes starting around nineteen sixty nine,

882
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:21.159
<v Speaker 5>and so the pressure became such and everybody started to

883
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:23.280
<v Speaker 5>respond to it. And so if you just let this

884
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.840
<v Speaker 5>go on another three years, you would have solved the problem.

885
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:28.679
<v Speaker 5>But no, we know better what the ratio is, and

886
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:31.679
<v Speaker 5>so what happens is in consequence of this, it turns

887
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:35.519
<v Speaker 5>out three hundred racing wrestling teams have been abolished because

888
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.320
<v Speaker 5>you don't have women wrestlers in the same number. UCLA

889
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:40.519
<v Speaker 5>and University Illinois, they don't have swimming teams. And you

890
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:42.800
<v Speaker 5>know why that's the case. Men both those places don't

891
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:46.840
<v Speaker 5>care to swim. Now, it's because they're basically barred. And

892
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.960
<v Speaker 5>what happens is in equilibrium, when you're supposed to have

893
00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:53.480
<v Speaker 5>equality between the sexes, you will pay thirty thousand dollars

894
00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:55.840
<v Speaker 5>to get a woman athlete, and you won't take a

895
00:43:55.880 --> 00:43:58.599
<v Speaker 5>male athlete. And on the other side, even he's willing.

896
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:00.440
<v Speaker 1>To swab the decks of the gym be on a

897
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:02.599
<v Speaker 1>swim team. Is this equality.

898
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:07.440
<v Speaker 5>So all of these statues have unanticipated consequences, and Becker

899
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:10.679
<v Speaker 5>never dealt with it at that particular level of particularity,

900
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.079
<v Speaker 5>in part because the second edition of the book was

901
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:16.320
<v Speaker 5>in nineteen seventy one, and this follows it, Well, I

902
00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:20.280
<v Speaker 5>dealt with this kind of stuff, and you know, I

903
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.639
<v Speaker 5>think in effect the arguments I made were correct. Essentially,

904
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:26.360
<v Speaker 5>you do not know exactly how a bad statute is

905
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.280
<v Speaker 5>going to play out, but you know it can't do

906
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.599
<v Speaker 5>any good. And so the prophylactive position is to say,

907
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:34.760
<v Speaker 5>the general tendencies are so strong that you do not

908
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:37.440
<v Speaker 5>allow people to especially plead why we need it in

909
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:41.199
<v Speaker 5>this particular industry, because almost invariably it turns out that

910
00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:44.840
<v Speaker 5>it's wrong. And what you discover, amazingly enough, is that

911
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:48.960
<v Speaker 5>people have both preferences. So take SKI schools, right, Oh well,

912
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.320
<v Speaker 5>I mean the number of women who want women instructors

913
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:54.760
<v Speaker 5>and men who want women instrights very large, and the

914
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:56.360
<v Speaker 5>number of people want male instructors.

915
00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:58.280
<v Speaker 1>It's very large. But they're not the same people.

916
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:01.280
<v Speaker 5>And you basically we find people say I won't go

917
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:02.800
<v Speaker 5>with this guy because he's gonna take me over the

918
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:04.639
<v Speaker 5>edge of a cliff. And I won't go with this

919
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:06.880
<v Speaker 5>namby Pam because she's going to keep me on the bunnies.

920
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.079
<v Speaker 1>Lie.

921
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:08.880
<v Speaker 4>I don't know, I might if she's pretty.

922
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:13.119
<v Speaker 5>Wait a second, you're not allowed to say that right

923
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.239
<v Speaker 5>under the current law. If you basically want to have

924
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:20.119
<v Speaker 5>an exogenous strait taken into account, and they try to

925
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 5>cater to that, they're in violation of Title seven. I

926
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:26.119
<v Speaker 5>should understand. Don't ski anymore because you basically are going

927
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.840
<v Speaker 5>to be guilty of inciting deviations to Title seven.

928
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Richard, we could go on all day about this,

929
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:37.960
<v Speaker 2>but I think that's enough for one go so so thanks. Okay,

930
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:40.719
<v Speaker 2>So there's Richard Epstein at full blast and we're gonna

931
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:42.239
<v Speaker 2>make a quick excit because we have to get the

932
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:45.119
<v Speaker 2>back to class with Richard for our hour three hour

933
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:48.199
<v Speaker 2>afternoon class on natural law. So a couple of Babylon

934
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:51.119
<v Speaker 2>bees and then an abrupt sign off and lucretia, what

935
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:51.360
<v Speaker 2>do you.

936
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.920
<v Speaker 3>Got and we'll see you next week. Yeah. Zelenski tries

937
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:57.639
<v Speaker 3>bold news strategy of insulting the people he's begging money from.

938
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:07.519
<v Speaker 4>Move cotton. Let's see what he does Nexton.

939
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:09.679
<v Speaker 3>Trump hangs up sign in White House you must be

940
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:18.280
<v Speaker 3>this tall to receive foreign aid. FBI investigation shows Epstein

941
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:25.719
<v Speaker 3>list shredded itself. Oh, Zelensky kicking himself for not wearing

942
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.199
<v Speaker 3>his more formal olive green T shirt to White House meeting.

943
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:35.800
<v Speaker 4>Who does he think he is? John Fetterman, this is.

944
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.880
<v Speaker 3>One of my favorites. A little bit off? Oh no,

945
00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:42.320
<v Speaker 3>we mentioned this. Trump assures Prime Minister Starmer that England

946
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:47.000
<v Speaker 3>is still his favorite Muslim country. I love that one, true,

947
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:48.920
<v Speaker 3>and that's all I got, Steve.

948
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:50.800
<v Speaker 2>That's okay, because we need to go. I have to

949
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:52.840
<v Speaker 2>do both ends of the sign. Austins, John's not here.

950
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.599
<v Speaker 2>Always drink your whiskey neat and don't forget to.

951
00:46:57.559 --> 00:46:59.119
<v Speaker 1>Milk the Margaret Brennan did.

952
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:00.320
<v Speaker 4>It in Bye Bye Buddy.

953
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:20.920
<v Speaker 6>Next week, Ricochet join the Conversation