WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.240 Hello everybody, ladies, gentlemen, brothers, sisters, comrades, friends. We're back 2 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:09.359 again with another very special episode of History Impossible, another conversation, 3 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:14.160 this time with the host, the pseudonymous host. I should 4 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.039 say that's a first for me here, as I say 5 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:21.000 in this conversation, but with the pseudonymous host of the 6 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:26.440 Crackpot History podcast. This is actually Crackpot Histories, if I 7 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:29.559 guess I can call him that first interview that he 8 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.479 has done since starting his podcast earlier on in twenty 9 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.920 twenty five. We cover a lot of ground. We cover 10 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:40.799 some potentially controversial ground where we talk about his critiques 11 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:45.079 of Darryl Cooper's first series for the Martyr Made podcast, 12 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.079 Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. We also discuss 13 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:53.320 his current project working on a critique of Scott Horton's 14 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:57.159 book Provoked, in which Horton tries to make the case 15 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:01.399 that NATO expansion and just generally speaking, Western influence is 16 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:05.439 what caused or provoked the Russi Ukrainian War. So we 17 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.200 cover a lot of ground in this. We also talk 18 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.239 about the deeper issues at play involving being a history 19 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.000 content creator, or really any kind of content creator that 20 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:17.560 purports to be giving accurate information, and how important it 21 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:21.120 is to do that, make it accurate, make it transparent, 22 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:24.840 and all that good stuff. Quick note, we actually recorded 23 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:29.840 this conversation back in January of twenty twenty six, so 24 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.879 any references to world events at that point that might 25 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:35.959 seem a little dated or feel a little jarring, that 26 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:40.159 explains it. So that's what you have in store for 27 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:44.040 you today. I want to thank everybody for listening and 28 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.640 for supporting the show, like my very kind and generous 29 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.879 supporters of History Impossible at the executive producer level, John 30 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:54.280 Andre Sather and Mike Mayleban, who have been with me 31 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:57.000 four years now, and I cannot tell you enough how 32 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.040 much I appreciate them. And I encourage all of you, 33 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.359 who you know have a couple bucks to throw my 34 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.560 way every month, to please do so. If you feel 35 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:07.239 so inclined, If you like what I'm doing and you 36 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:09.400 want to support it, head over to Patreon dot com, 37 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:12.560 slash History Impossible or just History impossible dot com and 38 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.759 become a paid subscriber today. I hope you enjoy this 39 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.879 conversation that I had with Crackpot History as much as 40 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.000 I enjoyed having it with him, So please sit back 41 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:25.800 and relax and let's get into some impossible history. 42 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:28.199 Well, let me to tell you what you would have 43 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:29.039 seen and heard. 44 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:31.800 I will not be pleasant listening if you were at lunch, 45 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:33.080 or if you have no appetite. 46 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:34.759 Knowledge A good time to switch author radio. 47 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:43.960 An ancestor of mine maintain that if you eliminate the impossible, 48 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:56.879 whatever remains, however improbable. BANDI you don't know that. I 49 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:00.240 wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace in. 50 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.319 I don't feel the anocking dream. I feel a mocking light. 51 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:13.240 If we share for issues to kill, if we share 52 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.879 for hue to kill. Some say the world. 53 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.599 Will end empire. Some say an I, from what. 54 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.879 I've tasted of desire, I hold those of favor fire. 55 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:26.280 But if it had to perish twice, I think I 56 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:27.800 know enough of hate. 57 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.840 To say that the destruction ice is also great and 58 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:31.759 look sufficed. 59 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:40.639 This is history or possible. 60 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:48.479 Hello, everybody, I am here, and I'm really happy to 61 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:53.000 be joined by my first anonymous subject, that is Crackpot History. 62 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:56.240 The host of Crackpot History, who I think at this one. 63 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:58.319 I'm just going to say, hey, man, hey dude, because 64 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.199 I I want to keep its anonymous here. So I 65 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:03.840 want to just first of all, say thank you for 66 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:05.960 joining me on History Possible. 67 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.599 Yeah, thanks for having me excited to be here. Didn't 68 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:09.840 know I was the first. 69 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:11.680 For of course. 70 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:12.000 Yeah. 71 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:14.800 And it's appropriate too because of not just the stuff 72 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:17.759 that I, you know, have been covering lately and sort 73 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.720 of what I see as being an interesting sort of 74 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:23.120 thing that I want, a theme that I've been sort 75 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:26.240 of focused on lately that we'll be getting into with 76 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:29.759 this episode. But I do think that there is something 77 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:32.199 to be said about crackpots in history. 78 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:34.519 These days and the use of history. 79 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:36.839 And I guess we'll say a weaponized way, which is 80 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:39.120 partly what you're going after. But you know, I'm not 81 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:41.680 going to define your show for you. I kind of 82 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.680 wanted to start out by asking you to just sort 83 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.399 of just just sort of explain what is crackpot history, 84 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.439 what's your mission with this broadly speaking, and what And 85 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:55.399 I'm actually curious, like, what is the sort of story, 86 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.079 if there is one, of how you got into this 87 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:01.000 and what made you decide to make this or project 88 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:03.160 in the history content creation space. 89 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:04.920 I guess we could call it. Sure. 90 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:08.959 Yeah, happy to provide some additional color. So crackpot History, 91 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:10.680 and this is kind of in the tagline of the 92 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.720 show is all about separating history from hysteria. And so 93 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:17.279 I think when you look at at the landscape today, 94 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.879 there's a lot of what I would call pop influencers 95 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.480 or pop historians or faux historians that are that are 96 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:30.000 basically looking at history and applying a narrative driven lens 97 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:32.040 to it. And I think that there's a few different 98 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.199 reasons why people might do that. Right. One could be 99 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:37.360 maybe you have a bias or an animus toward a 100 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.759 particular subject. Right. One could be maybe you want to 101 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:43.480 win hearts and minds for causes that you believe in. 102 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:47.720 Another could be maybe there are state based geopolitical bad 103 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.639 actors that are supporting you and want you to push 104 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.360 your particular narrative. And so think I think that there's 105 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:56.000 all of these different elements to this, And when you 106 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.720 throw in the virality of social media of the internet, 107 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:04.160 you know, those beliefs and that pop history can spread 108 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:08.240 very quickly and influence the real world and influence geopolitical 109 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:12.519 hotspots and influence policy. And so I think, more than 110 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.319 anything else, the reason why I chose to name crackpot 111 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:17.160 History is because there's a lot of crackpots out there, 112 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:18.639 and there's a lot of people that kind of need 113 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:22.000 to be fact checked, and so the podcast is all 114 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.319 about really looking at their claims, not making it but 115 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:27.399 personal attacks or mud slinging or anything like that, but 116 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:30.399 looking at their claims and going claim by claim and saying, 117 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.000 you know, is this true, what is the evidence for this? 118 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:34.920 You know, what are the sources say, what do they 119 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.720 say about it? Going into their footnotes and really trying 120 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:41.160 to dive deep into the claims and invalidate them or not. 121 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.000 And in the case of some you know people, have 122 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.360 to where you have to actually try to discern what 123 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:50.040 their you know, so to speak, footnotes are when they 124 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.360 don't provide them. I mean, that's in a lot of 125 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:55.759 ways the one of the biggest challenges I think of critiquing. 126 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.560 I guess I'll say, we'll just call it online history. 127 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:01.680 I don't know, I can't think of any other way 128 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.319 to put it. Because some creators out there, I do 129 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.319 really appreciate this, I see this on YouTube especially, will 130 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.920 provide their list of sources in their notes. I actually, will, 131 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:13.000 you know, be the first admit I don't put my 132 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:17.040 sources in my episode notes, and maybe I should, but 133 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:21.120 I do try to post a blog posts, you know, 134 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:23.839 periodically saying here's the list of sources I use for 135 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:26.079 this particular episode. I haven't done that in a bit so, 136 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:29.040 and I just released the big episode of the Muslim 137 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:31.839 Nazis about the handshar, so I probably should put together 138 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:35.079 a nice comprehensive list of the sources I used, of course, 139 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:37.639 But point being is that that's really hard to do 140 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.240 when those are not provided. So I think that that's 141 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:43.240 like in I would imagine, and maybe you can correct 142 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.079 me on this, that's the hardest part of what you've 143 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.639 been doing is trying to figure out what sources are 144 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:49.519 being used. 145 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:51.839 Or not being used. Am I on the right track there? 146 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:53.839 Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. Yeah, 147 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:55.439 I mean some of the folks that I've covered. So 148 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:57.639 I'm in the middle of my second series right now. 149 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.639 My first series was on Darryl Cooper, covering his fear 150 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:02.680 and loathing in the New Jerusalem History of the Israeli 151 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:06.600 Palestinian Conflict, currently covering Scott Horton's book Provoked in the 152 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.079 History of the Russo Ukrainian War. So I've only done 153 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:11.480 two series in the middle of my second But yeah, 154 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:14.639 in some cases, the sources in you know, in Horton's case, 155 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.240 I'm using the ebook and there are sources in the footnotes, 156 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:22.240 but a lot of those are websites, and some of 157 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:24.519 those links are dead because they're from old sources. Right 158 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:29.240 in Cooper's case, there really aren't sources in some cases, 159 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:30.399 and then you have to go kind of on this 160 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.080 scavenger hunt looking for them and trying to figure out, well, 161 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:34.639 where did he pull this quote from? And in some 162 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.519 cases I've been successful and been able to find sources 163 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.440 that he doesn't name. I also, by the way, I'm 164 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.360 guilty of this. I don't actually list the sources that 165 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.720 I refer to in my episodes, but when I'm quoting 166 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.159 from them, I do say who is I'm quoting from, 167 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:47.879 and typically what the title of the work is? 168 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:48.799 Oh? Same same here. 169 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.679 Yeah, that's I mean, that's honestly the at least in 170 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.200 the case of you know, long form, you know, narrative 171 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.720 history podcasters. But I think in your case too, I mean, 172 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:58.600 I think that that's a tradition laid down by Dan 173 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.440 Carlin years ago at this point, I mean twenty years 174 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.080 ago actually, now that I think about it. It's a 175 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.639 I think it's a twentieth anniversary of hardcore history, and 176 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:07.879 he's always been really good at that. But I think 177 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.399 Carlin has kind of turned into more of a historiographical storyteller, 178 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.840 if that makes sense, where he's very dedicated to the 179 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:17.320 to the sourcing, and he very rarely makes any assertion 180 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.799 of his own at least I mean, he'll say if 181 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:21.759 it's his opinion, and I think that's a really good 182 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:25.679 model to follow. But yeah, so I think the scavenger 183 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.360 hunt of sources, on the one hand, is actually kind 184 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:30.480 of fun. I think if you're a certain level of autistic, 185 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:32.480 like I think I am, and I don't want to 186 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:34.080 speak for you, but it maybe you are. 187 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:36.440 But it's kind of fun. 188 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:38.559 It's like a scavenger hunt, like you said, and that's 189 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.440 that's kind of satisfying. But but yeah, like trying to 190 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.200 figure that out, I would imagine, like I said, is 191 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.240 the hardest part. But at the same time, it can 192 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.799 be really rewarding because then you can find new information 193 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:50.519 you might not have otherwise found, you know, So in 194 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.519 a sense there's you know, some value in that as well. 195 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.559 But excuse me, I guess we should probably get into it. 196 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.039 I'd be remiss not to mention or to repeat the 197 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:04.639 fact that your very first subject was, you know, of 198 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.559 Daryl Cooper, somebody who I have collaborated with and spoken 199 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:13.159 highly of and increasingly more critically of. And you know, honestly, 200 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:14.919 I don't think the critiques are going to stop anytime 201 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:19.559 soon at this point, for various reasons, especially given the 202 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:21.960 waters he's decided to wade into when it comes to 203 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.559 World War II history, which, funny enough, I don't think 204 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:27.200 is really much we can say about that, at least 205 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.320 right now, because, like you said, your focus was on 206 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.120 Fear and Loathing in The New Jerusalem, his first series, which, 207 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.000 as I'll just say that, I after listening to your 208 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.759 series on that, I can see a lot of issues 209 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:43.360 with what he did with that series. Now, I still 210 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:45.879 think it's a very good series as far as storytelling goes. 211 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.799 I mean, I think that you yourself have said, whatever 212 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.279 one thinks of him, his politics or his you know, 213 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:56.320 his quality of his analysis, he's a very good storyteller. 214 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:58.000 He's good at what he does, and I think that 215 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:02.039 that's always something we need to acknowledge. But he plays 216 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:04.320 a little fast and loose, and you made that very 217 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.679 clear with this first series of yours, which, if I 218 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.440 remember right, you called Manufactured Martyr. I believe is what 219 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.120 you titled that series. Yeah, it's a good title, and 220 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.360 I think it's fair to say it's probably his most 221 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:19.600 well known series. You know, I will say that I 222 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:21.360 was one of those people for a while, and I 223 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.720 you know that I that really loved that series, and 224 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.039 I did defer to his judgment with that series a 225 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.039 fair bit longer than I think I should have. I 226 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:31.639 think he did play fast and loose in a lot 227 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:35.240 of in a lot of cases. And my only sense 228 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:38.480 is that as I did my own parallel research as 229 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:40.679 part of my own series on the Muslim Nazis that 230 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:43.919 touched on the same subject. My criticism of him, and 231 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:46.480 we talked about this before we're recording, was really how 232 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.200 he treated the character of the Mufti of hajaminaw Husseini, 233 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.440 which I thought was, like i'll characterize it now as 234 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:57.559 far to kid gloves, I guess maybe hands off i'd 235 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.960 be a better word to. And there's probably various reasons 236 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.879 for that, but I always felt that he was a 237 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:05.960 little too credulous with that character, and I think that 238 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.000 that might have been, like, you know that that was 239 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.080 a good instinct for me to follow, because if I 240 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.159 think I had followed it further, I probably would have 241 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:15.399 found a lot of what you found in this. So 242 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.720 I guess like it always bothered me how he didn't 243 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.360 really give the Mufty his due, and like I. 244 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:24.759 Said, there's more to it than that. 245 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:29.519 So when your series came along, I mean, honestly, I 246 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.960 wouldn't call what your series was it was a scalpel. 247 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.240 Of fear and loathing in the New Jerusalem, but it 248 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:33.480 was a. 249 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:35.919 Full set of surgical tools, like That's why I would 250 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:38.720 characterize it. And so I figured we'd just start with 251 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.360 that and I can let you describe in broad strokes 252 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:44.159 what you came away with when talking about that series. 253 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:45.759 You already kind of started to talk about it a 254 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:46.200 little bit. 255 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.679 So I want to let you, you know, go through 256 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.679 what you found with the with the with your Manufactured 257 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.960 Martyr series, and maybe you can linger on whatever details 258 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:59.200 that you found particularly significant with that. 259 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:02.960 Sure, yeah, I can. We can definitely start there. So 260 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.080 I think you know, at the beginning of Fear and 261 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.960 Loathing in the New Jerusalem, it's in the first episode, 262 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.159 at the very opening in the introduction, you know, Cooper 263 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:18.919 tells the audience that he's not going to tell us 264 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.279 who's right from wrong. He's just going to tell us 265 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.120 the history. And I'm this is verbati, this is I'm 266 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:27.799 paraphrasing here, basically what he said. And when you hear that, 267 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:30.159 as a member of the audience, you're basically kind of 268 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.360 priming yourself and saying, Okay, this is going to be 269 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.399 a telling of the history. There's no bias, there's no animis. 270 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.480 He's just going to ping pong back and forth between 271 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:40.320 what was going on with the Jews, what was going 272 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.080 on with the Arabs, the Palestinians, and we're going we're 273 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.559 going to get a forth right telling. And I think 274 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:49.399 that as you go through the series, there are these moments, 275 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.799 these kind of inflection points where you say, well, that 276 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.759 sounds like there's some animis there, right, And then there 277 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.080 are things that are just flat out a historical incorrect 278 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:04.279 Pinprick remarks that he makes really just punching down on 279 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:07.919 the Jews in Israel as it relates to this conflict. 280 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.120 Things that go far beyond the scope I think of, 281 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:13.440 you know, this is just the history of the Israeli 282 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.039 Palestinian conflict. You know, there's this one. There's this one 283 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:19.159 comment that he makes that he stands out and I 284 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.360 go comment by comment, you know, point by point, where 285 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:26.000 he says something to the effect of it was, it 286 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:29.000 was a wonder that Jews were allowed to live and 287 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.240 persist in Europe at all, given that they, you know, 288 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.360 had fought against the Christians in Spain, given that they 289 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.039 had been responsible for all of these crimes, historical crimes 290 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.039 decide I believe he refers to in terms of, you know, 291 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.080 the killing of Jesus. Just all of these pieces that 292 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:51.320 are very ahistorical or kind of leaning on clear animates 293 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.960 when it comes to the Jews specifically, and go, I 294 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.240 go point by point and kind of correct the record 295 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.240 as to why those things aren't the case. Right there 296 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.480 are there are many, many, many historians that study these 297 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:06.919 things and publish on them. And so that's just you know, 298 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:09.399 one example. But another one that I think is even 299 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.159 that really stands out and really grinded my gears at 300 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:15.200 the time, and I mentioned this to you previously, was 301 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.039 that there are just things that are factually wrong, regardless 302 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.120 of whether you have a favorite or pick a side 303 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.919 in the sports game, as people kind of think of 304 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.960 this conflict these days as things that are just wrong. 305 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.279 You know. He says that the Hashermites liberated Jerusalem in 306 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.559 nineteen seventeen. No, that was the British and Allen be 307 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.879 actually right. And so there are just things that are 308 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.120 really basic that when I'm going through my episodes and 309 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:40.519 I'm fact checking and I'm making sure that I'm holding 310 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:44.120 myself accountable. If you're going to position yourself as a historian, 311 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:46.279 which I believe he now does. You know, there's always 312 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.360 there was this whole debate as to you know, does 313 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.279 he consider himself a historian? Do these guys doing pop 314 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.320 history label themselves as a historian. If you're going to 315 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.039 embrace that label, then you really need to get it right. 316 00:15:57.639 --> 00:15:59.759 And I think that there's just a tremendous amount of 317 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:02.799 and animus in this series. And then when you combine 318 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:07.200 that with his current tweets on the subject on the conflict, 319 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.879 I think you bring those two pieces together. I think 320 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.080 it's very clear where he stands and whether he was 321 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.080 being truthful in the introduction of his series as to 322 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.320 whether he was going to be giving us a forthright, 323 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:19.679 unbiased telling of the history. 324 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:21.080 M hmm. Yeah. 325 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.559 And it's interesting you bring up his tweets too, because 326 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.080 I feel like what you kind of showed is very 327 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.759 interesting because a common thing that a lot of people 328 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:32.080 always said to me, and I always deflected, how do 329 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:36.600 you reconcile this guy's ability to tell such a careful story, 330 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.000 like a nuanced story. The word nuance came up a 331 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.399 lot when people would say this and the person he 332 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:43.679 is on Twitter, and I always said because it was 333 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:46.240 what he said and what he and I talked about. 334 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:47.759 I mean, there was one time I told him my 335 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.799 method of not tweeting from the hips, so to speak 336 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.240 for me at the time, it was more Facebook posting. 337 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:54.720 Now I do more Twitter, doesn't matter. 338 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.080 The point is what I always what I told him 339 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.360 was like the method that I've always used to keep 340 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:02.639 me from getting in trouble is write what I want 341 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.440 to say in the heat of the moment, but then 342 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.160 don't post it, and then like wait an hour, and 343 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.079 then if you still feel that way, then post it, 344 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:10.480 and nine times out of ten you're not going to 345 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:11.079 want to post it. 346 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.319 And he thought it was a good idea. Obviously he 347 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:14.279 never stuck to that. 348 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.160 But yeah, what I thought was really interesting though, is 349 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:21.000 that people always said, including people who really like him 350 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.640 like personally too, like he's just two different people on 351 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:25.880 Twitter and on his podcast or on Twitter and when 352 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:27.480 you talk to him in person. And I would also 353 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:30.680 agree with that, but I think what you kind of 354 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.000 showed with your show, especially I think in light of 355 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:38.839 how he's been increasingly more defensive after his blow up 356 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.599 and fame from his Tucker Carlson appearance in late twenty 357 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.240 twenty four, I think you're kind of showing that there's 358 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.839 less daylight between the Twitter persona and the podcast. And 359 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.119 that was I think what was so striking to me 360 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:54.839 as somebody who vaguely knows Daryl and has known him 361 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:57.640 for a while and has supported his work and in 362 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.119 a weird way still kind of do because I we 363 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.079 can get We'll circle back to that if you want 364 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.920 about the about why I think it's fine to have 365 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.319 people like that saying what they're saying on the internet. 366 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.000 It's just that you need to have people there to 367 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:09.599 challenge them. 368 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:11.960 But yeah, I guess what I'm saying is I think 369 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.240 that that disconnect was kind of connected with what you 370 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.640 did in your series, and I think that that's important 371 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:19.559 to notice. 372 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.519 And I guess, yeah, Like that's. 373 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:24.960 The thing that I don't want to gloss over too much, 374 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.680 is for somehow if there's anyone listening who has not 375 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.359 also listened to Darryl series about Israel and Palestine, and 376 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.839 I mentioned how he kind of glossed over Hajamin al 377 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.039 Husseini's role, and I, you know, because it's, you know, 378 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:38.920 kind of my hobby horse. I was thinking we can 379 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.160 maybe hone in on that a little bit. And I'm 380 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.880 working off memory that's much more distant than yours, because 381 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.079 you looked at the Haja mean aspect of the story 382 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:51.440 much more recently than I did. But we talked about 383 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.240 this a little bit before recording, Like I was saying 384 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.960 that he kind of just ends the story of Hajajamin 385 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.640 al Husseini in the Israeli Palestinian conflict at around the 386 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.039 Arab revolt. He doesn't really even touch on the McDonald 387 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.039 white paper Shenanigans. He doesn't talk about the far Hood 388 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:09.799 at all in Iraq. He doesn't really even talk about 389 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.240 Haja Mean in like teaming up with the Access. He 390 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:15.720 gives it like one throwaway mention if memory serves, and 391 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.519 he basically dismisses the Mufty as having just gone insane 392 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.039 instead of looking at him more seriously like he has 393 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.279 been throughout the previous part of the series and a 394 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.319 lot of other figures. Because that's the thing is that 395 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.279 omission is what I thought was so weird, is because 396 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:35.160 if you're going to tell the story of this conflict, 397 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.000 you have to give agency to people like hajaminaw who's 398 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.319 saying that they don't just go insane and stop mattering. 399 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.480 They have significance. And so yeah, I think. 400 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.799 That that lack of I guess you could say, you 401 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.720 could call it too much credulity or lack of credulity, 402 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.240 depending on what you're talking about. But his lack of 403 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.359 coverage of Hajamen always bothered me in that sense because 404 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:01.640 it felt like he was not giving him or his 405 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:04.839 side of the conflict they're real due. He was kind 406 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.319 of treating them, like I said, with kid gloves and 407 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.000 not giving them the responsibility that they might otherwise have 408 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.400 while putting all the responsibility on the Zionis side of 409 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:14.039 the conflict. 410 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.000 And that, like I said, that always bothered me. 411 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.759 I felt like that kind of helped crystallize why I 412 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:22.240 thought your series was so effective. 413 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.319 So do do you have any thoughts in that regard. 414 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:27.880 Yeah, I mean I think that there is I think 415 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.640 that there is a misallocation of agency when it comes 416 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.079 to when it comes to Husseini specifically, I think that 417 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:40.519 he is portrayed as being a and this is you know, 418 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:45.759 this is Horton's I'm paraphrasing Horton here, but he's basically 419 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.880 portrayed as a moderating force in the series that was 420 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.000 trying to quell the violence, trying to work with the British, 421 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.680 trying to make sure that peace was possible between the 422 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:01.480 competing national movements that were urging in the Mandate of 423 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.319 Palestine in at the time. And I think that that 424 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.880 is just simply incorrect and ahistorical when you actually dive 425 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.039 into things, and specifically, I think one of the most 426 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.960 egregious moments in Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem 427 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.240 is surrounding the as you know, the Pogrim of nineteen 428 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.799 twenty nine, which was in Hebron and is labeled Hebron Pogrim, 429 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.279 but also was in other areas of the Mandate, and 430 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:32.519 Husseini and his acolytes were the ones that kind of 431 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.680 fanned the flames of this transpiring. So they handed out 432 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:41.559 materials that were said things to the effect of, you know, 433 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.079 the Jews are coming to seize Alaxa, right and things 434 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.880 along those lines, which are just completely incorrect, and just 435 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.240 that wasn't part of the plan. And so there's this 436 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.599 kind of deferral of agency where oh he was there, 437 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.000 he was trying to make sure that a lid was 438 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:02.079 kept on on the tempers and the potential for chaos, 439 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.880 while he was actually behind the scenes wanting to instigate 440 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.279 the violence. And that piece just isn't portrayed at all. 441 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.920 The other piece that I think is really missing is 442 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:20.319 the Husseinis, the more extremist elements of Palestinian Arab society 443 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:24.279 in the Mandate at the time. They weren't just operating unopposed, right, 444 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.440 there was a counterbalancing force in the form of the 445 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:32.039 Nashashibies and the Nashashibi family, who were much more moderate, 446 00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:34.960 who wanted to work with the British, who wanted to 447 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.440 find a diplomatic solution with the Zionists, with the Jews 448 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:43.920 in the Mandate at the time, and I personally believe 449 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:50.000 that if they were given enough support this conflict, the 450 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:51.640 one hundred plus years of it could have gone in 451 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.680 a very different way, but they were attacked and killed 452 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.200 by Husseini and his acolytes and lost their prestigion influence 453 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:01.519 because of it. Cooper doesn't really that at all. So 454 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.039 the mini Palestinian Civil War that happened, and the fact 455 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:08.359 that these people were killed and butchered in the sake 456 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:12.720 of for the sake of a maximalist outcome that Hussein 457 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:13.279 he wanted. 458 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:18.880 Yeah, and that's something that I am also kind of 459 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:24.799 bristle at too with his coverage because he doesn't recognize 460 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:28.039 or I don't want to. I don't want to necessarily 461 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.559 impuge motive, at least not yet, because I kind of wanted. 462 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:31.599 To get into that a little bit later. 463 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:36.039 But I don't like how he minimized Haja means anti 464 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.359 Semitism or Jew hatred might be a better way of 465 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.839 putting it, just so we're not we don't get stuck 466 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:42.720 in that hole splitting of hairs like, oh, well they're 467 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.000 all Semis that kind of thing. But uh, yeah, I 468 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.319 bristle at his inability to recognize that haja means motivation 469 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.559 was what it was, like you said, he really did 470 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.720 portray him as a moderating force, and I am somewhat 471 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.119 guilt of following in his footsteps earlier on in my 472 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.920 own Muscle Nazi series when talking about that, I saw 473 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:10.400 his motivation less innocently, but I did try to I 474 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.079 did try to present him as somebody who didn't want 475 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.960 violence to get out of control because he was trying 476 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.599 to maintain power. I didn't have all the sources available 477 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:21.440 to me at the time. I didn't even know about 478 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:24.000 the pamphlets that you were talking about just then, So 479 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.359 there is some correction needed there on my part, for sure. 480 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.359 But with that said, I still think that he was 481 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.119 much more interested in growing and maintaining his influence and power. 482 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.119 That was one motivating plank for Haja mean that I 483 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:43.920 don't really get the sense Daryl appreciated or noted, and 484 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.440 his Jew hatred was more framed, if it was framed 485 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:48.920 at all, And maybe you can correct me on this, 486 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.319 because again your memory is fresher on this than mine. 487 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:54.200 He more saw it as a reaction, and that does 488 00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:56.519 seem to be kind of Daryl's view on anti Semitism, 489 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:58.759 is that it's always a reaction to something that Jews 490 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.759 do or that like particularly annoying or quote unquote bad 491 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:05.319 Jews do, and I think that's also kind of how 492 00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:10.920 he sees how racism operates. But the difference between I'll 493 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.359 just say that maybe that's true sometimes. But the thing 494 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.799 about anti Semitism Jew hatred is that it's a conspiracy 495 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.880 theory before it's a bigotry. So there's always something preemptive 496 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:26.200 about it. And I think that when you don't appreciate that, 497 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.119 and you're going to underrate it as a motivator. And 498 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.599 as we talked about before recording, there is very good, 499 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:37.759 circumstantial evidence that Hajamin al Husseini was very aware and 500 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.240 very familiar with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion 501 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.359 by at least nineteen twenty, if not before. He was multilingual, 502 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.200 so he could have read other editions of it even 503 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.359 before that the point. And also he was you know, 504 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.640 he supposedly had it memorized later in life, so clearly 505 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.640 he was familiar with it. And you also spoke about 506 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:57.079 this with me a little bit before we were recording, 507 00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.720 about the sort of historical confluence of factors there. Maybe 508 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:03.119 you can and highlight that a little bit for listeners, 509 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.599 but I guess what that's what I'm saying is that 510 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:09.160 I feel like underrating these internal motivations in favor of 511 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:13.440 these grand historical forces. What that ultimately does is takes 512 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:17.359 responsibility and agency away from Haja mean, especially for events 513 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.400 like the nineteen twenty nine riots. But you could even 514 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.200 go back and say the Nabi Musa riots perhaps as well. 515 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:23.599 Though the sense I got is that that was a 516 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.720 little more I think that that was definitely a situation 517 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.319 where things got a little out of control. They weren't 518 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.160 necessarily meant to be that crazy. But maybe maybe I'm 519 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.839 wrong on that too, Maybe I need to update my 520 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.119 understanding of all those events too. But anyway, I wanted 521 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.000 to let you respond to the idea of these confounding 522 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:43.519 motivations that Daryl just left out, or at least seem 523 00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:44.039 to leave out. 524 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.680 Yeah, I mean, I think that any telling of the 525 00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:50.400 history needs to look at both sides, right and so 526 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.920 on the one side, on the one hand, if if 527 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:56.480 you're Cooper and you're going to talk about some of 528 00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:59.039 the some of the actions of the Irgun in the 529 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.720 lay hey right, which you know especially right, Yeah, so 530 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.759 if you're going to cover those in granular detail, and 531 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:09.640 then you're not going to account for, you know, what 532 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:14.480 precipitated the violence and what brought about those organizations. Right, 533 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.279 So you mentioned Nebi Musa in nineteen twenty, the Jaffa 534 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:20.720 riots in nineteen twenty one, you know, the battle at 535 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:23.480 Tel High around the same period, and then obviously culminating 536 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.119 in nineteen twenty nine. There's this decade that the Anglo 537 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.720 American Committee of Inquiry actually refers to where the Jews 538 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:35.960 kind of sat on their hands and really didn't do 539 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.839 much until the thirties and things started really kind of 540 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.279 coming around and they said, well, you know, we want 541 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.839 to find some kind of a diplomatic resolution here. But 542 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:50.440 it doesn't really seem like we have another side of 543 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:52.400 the aisle that's kind of willing to meet us halfway. 544 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.039 And that whole story isn't really portrayed, right, Like Cooper 545 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:00.119 might touch on elements of the Nebu Musa riots and 546 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.559 the jaff riots and all that stuff, but the fifty 547 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.599 thousand foot narrative isn't really given. And I think that's 548 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:10.400 important because these organizations, the Huguanah that you're gun the 549 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.279 lay He. You know, if you want to talk with 550 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:14.839 their actions, we can talk with their actions, certainly, but 551 00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.240 what brought them into existence? Right would they have existed 552 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:22.000 if there wasn't this decade of the of the nineteen 553 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:25.880 twenties that really kind of shifted Jewish thinking and brought 554 00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:28.160 about the radicals, as some people would call them today, 555 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.759 like the Jabbatinskis of the world, et cetera. With his 556 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.160 Iron Wall essay saying, we want to make peace with 557 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:36.240 the Arabs, but in the short term, we need this 558 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.319 iron wall of force to get us to a point 559 00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:41.279 where a compromise can be reached, which is how he 560 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.759 concludes his essay, which most people don't actually speak to. 561 00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:49.039 But that whole story isn't really being told there, and 562 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.640 so you know, you have to question at some point 563 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.960 when you're diving into the negative aspects of one side 564 00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:59.799 of the conflict but not really giving the same amount 565 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.000 of detail or omitting some of the agency and the 566 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.359 animus on the other side, it kind of makes you question, 567 00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:07.799 what is the motivating force behind that decision? 568 00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:12.240 Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean you can also 569 00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:16.039 ask that question about like why, what's the motivating force 570 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:20.079 behind the decision not to include certain things or include 571 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:21.839 certain things, or if that's what you mean, is that 572 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:24.759 what you meant, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, Yeah, we'll 573 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:27.640 get back to that in a little bit, uh, because 574 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.480 I have some questions about that too, But I do 575 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:34.400 have a more meta question, I guess, like, how credible 576 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.240 do you find Darryl's claims of having read hundreds of 577 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:39.799 books at over a thousand academic papers and the subject 578 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:42.160 of Israel Palestine. I mean I was always skeptical, Like 579 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:44.920 I think I told you earlier. I think that led 580 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:47.799 to him being a little miffed at me, which you know, 581 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.400 in which case I think has ultimately led to me 582 00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:51.559 getting blocked by him. 583 00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:54.480 But I've always well, welcome to the club, by the way, welcome. 584 00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:58.279 To the exactly Yeah, which makes me a little sad, 585 00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:00.160 because you know, I did consider him like something of 586 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:01.839 a friend for a while. But I mean, you know, 587 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:06.559 that's just you know, Internet debate politics for you, I guess. 588 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:10.200 But but yeah, I've always been skeptical of his claims 589 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:12.880 of having read that much. But yeah, what do you 590 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:15.920 make of his of his claims of having read that much? 591 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:18.680 Yeah, Look, I think that I when I'm looking at 592 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:23.319 a series, when I'm looking at Cooper or Horton or 593 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.519 you know, Dave Smith, Tucker, Carlson, et ceter o. Insert 594 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:29.119 name here, Right, I'm kind of just focusing on what 595 00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.599 the claims are, and so from the claims you can 596 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.680 kind of you can draw your own conclusions, right. I 597 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:37.640 mentioned I think I mentioned to you that, you know, 598 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:42.599 when he said that the Hashermites liberated Jerusalem in nineteen seventeen, 599 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:45.960 that raises some eyebrows, right, Like, that's a very that's 600 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.559 a very basic claim. That's a part of the story 601 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:50.839 as to how the British controlled the area, you know, 602 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.559 how we got to the Balfour Declaration, how the conflict 603 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.319 really started, right, that is a These are very basic 604 00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:58.960 fundamental facts, if. 605 00:30:58.799 --> 00:30:59.759 You don't mind me jumping in. 606 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.640 Sorry, where do you think the claim that the Hashemites 607 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:04.400 liberated it came from? 608 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.799 I think it might be a geography issue, maybe a 609 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.640 little bit of confusion. You know, there's there's obviously the 610 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:15.000 Hashemites liberated Akaba with lawns of Arabia, and then they 611 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.240 moved north on the east side of the Jordan River. 612 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.559 But crossing into Palestine as a force, you know, with 613 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.920 with political leadership to liberate Jerusalem, I mean certainly didn't happen. 614 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:30.519 Neither were Hashemite forces fighting. I believe he also says 615 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.200 that they that they fought in the Sinai and there 616 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:35.519 might have been, you know, some troops, that it might 617 00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:38.119 have crossed the Jordan, but there wasn't a collective effort. 618 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:41.839 There's nothing that really substantively documents that or as evidence 619 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:44.680 to that fact that there was a concerted Hashemite effort 620 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:48.039 in conjunction with Allen b and the British to liberate 621 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.359 the entirety of Palestine and Jerusalem. Of course. I mean, look, 622 00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:53.960 you want to make an argument about them securing the 623 00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.720 flanks with Akaba and moving up north into trans Jordan, 624 00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.000 you can have that claim, but that's not what is 625 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.079 said in the podcast in his series. 626 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:03.559 Gotcha Okay, So it's just more of like he made 627 00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:06.279 a fast and loose comment that he didn't really like 628 00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.200 linger on. So I guess it sounds that sounds more 629 00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.200 like an innocent mistake than anything else. 630 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:13.200 I mean, it certainly could be right, But then I 631 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.240 think you when you go through the series and you 632 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.720 listen to the number of quote, you know, innocent mistakes 633 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:19.559 that are made, I think you really have to take 634 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.200 a step back and say, you know, is there something 635 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.960 at play here? You know, is there animus? Is there bias? 636 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.799 Why isn't this full story being told? Why is the 637 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.359 context missing? And I just I think that there's just 638 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:32.319 a lot of smoke there, which is why I made 639 00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:34.880 the decision to start with this series, because as I 640 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:38.119 started listening to it, I started pointing out and recognizing 641 00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:40.279 there were a lot of things that needed some additional 642 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:41.240 context in color. 643 00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.480 Right, and yeah, actually we should linger on the I 644 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:48.599 remember the thing that really the thing that actually caused 645 00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:50.599 you to be in the club that I now also 646 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:53.519 occupy of being blocked by him, it was what was 647 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:57.160 the sourcing issue with that? It was he took issue 648 00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:00.519 with you saying that you could not find it rearticular 649 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:03.799 source for his claim of what what was that? 650 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:04.599 Do you recall? 651 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.160 Yeah, so the claim was and there was a big 652 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.519 Twitter blow up back and forth about this, and so 653 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:13.119 the claim what it gained. 654 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:15.039 You like five thousand followers if I remember, right. 655 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.759 Yeah, So it's funny I started. I started the account 656 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.000 in April of now last year, twenty twenty five, and 657 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:25.880 is today I think I'm sitting close to fifty five 658 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:27.839 hundred followers or something, And people say, oh, do you 659 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.039 know how did you get that many? If you must 660 00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:30.640 be with Masad or something crazy with that. 661 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.640 We got the seven thousand dollars check. 662 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.480 Seven seven thousand dollars. Yeah, seven thousand dollars check. 663 00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:38.240 Per post or Massad is listening, I will take seven 664 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:40.880 thousand dollars. I would love seven thousand dollars. I'm in 665 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:42.319 debt for grad school guys. 666 00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:42.720 Come on. 667 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:49.400 So the whole thing was there's this conversation that he 668 00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:55.720 refers to that is a conversation between Usishkin, who was 669 00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:58.759 a Jewish leader, and Ronald Stores, who was the British 670 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:03.000 military of ji Islam at the time. And at the 671 00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:07.400 end of the conversation, the way that it's framed by 672 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:14.000 Cooper is that Usishkin basically threatened Ronald Stores by saying, 673 00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:16.960 and I believe this was in correct me if I'm mistaken, 674 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:19.800 I believe this was in the context of the aftermath 675 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.480 of the nineteen twenty nine program, where they were basically 676 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.039 Usishkin was saying, this is a program. You know, the 677 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:30.159 British bear responsibility for this. I know what a program 678 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:33.320 looks like. I've experienced or seen them myself, or you know, 679 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:37.079 read enough material on them. Given what happened in Tsarist Russia? 680 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:39.239 This was a program. And then at the end of 681 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:45.199 the conversation, Cooper basically says that Usishkin threatened stores by 682 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.960 saying something of the effect of you saw what happened 683 00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:51.519 to the Tsar, you know, watch your back, basically something 684 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:53.679 to that effect. And so there was a whole there 685 00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:55.519 was a hole back and forth. But you know, is 686 00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:58.719 that what happened in the quote or was that? Is 687 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:00.639 that an accurate quote? Is that an you're telling of 688 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:04.280 the story, and when you dive into the sources that 689 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.239 refer to it, that part of the quote isn't mentioned. 690 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:11.360 And then somebody actually on X and I was going 691 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.360 to do this myself, somebody actually dove into the archives 692 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:19.480 in Israel and posted a telling in the archives that 693 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:23.639 are the basis for this conversation being referred to in 694 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.639 various historical works, and that isn't there. And so that 695 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:30.360 was kind of the end of the back and forth 696 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:35.800 when I highlighted that, and some some very well read 697 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.320 follower on X pulled that up and that was that 698 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:39.239 was basically the end of. 699 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:43.519 It, right, Yeah, And I remember somebody also pulled a 700 00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:46.920 the origin of that quote. If I remember right, it 701 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.280 was a I am blanking on the name of the website, 702 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.199 but they did find a version of that. But I 703 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.119 think if I remember right, it was just a scanned 704 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.519 page of another secondary source. But it was on a 705 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.760 site that is that like has a reputable sounding name 706 00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:01.679 something about it. 707 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:03.519 There was there was like a site there was like 708 00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:07.000 a Jewish encyclopedia site or something that's it that, yeah, 709 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:10.039 And so that came up and they had they also 710 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:12.760 don't have a source for it. And so the basis 711 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.480 the basis of this conversation, and I think I don't 712 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:17.800 want to, you know, be misattributing here, but I believe 713 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:23.880 that Cooper pulls this from Tom Segev's book One Palestine Complete. Yes, 714 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.079 it was a history, yes, which is a history of 715 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.760 man of the Mandate. And so when you go in there, 716 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:35.719 Segev doesn't refer to that ending part of the conversation, right, 717 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:40.119 And that's what I highlight in my critique of Cooper here. 718 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:43.559 And then again, you know, the Twitter follower kind of 719 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.280 beat me to it and pulled up the archive in 720 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:49.119 Israel that refers to the conversation that I believe Segev 721 00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:51.559 refers to. And it also isn't there. And so that 722 00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:53.400 was the basis of the of the back and forth 723 00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.400 and what ultimately I think got me blocked by Cooper 724 00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:57.559 as well. 725 00:36:57.719 --> 00:36:59.800 Yeah, well, and that's just kind of his his MO 726 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.280 has been liberal with the block button, I mean, and 727 00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.559 that's something that I think a lot of people have 728 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.559 like come to do, especially when they have high follower 729 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:11.119 accounts and are, yeah, getting questioned, especially when. 730 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:13.880 You know, my rule for that is my rule for 731 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.840 that is, if you're gonna like personally insult me, you're 732 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:19.280 probably gonna get blocked. But if you're if you're focusing 733 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.199 on the claims or the arguments or having a back 734 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.280 and forth, like it doesn't make sense, you're not you're 735 00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:26.639 not getting you're not getting blocked. 736 00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:27.519 Yeah, exactly. 737 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.800 Yeah, well, and and again, I mean this gets into 738 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.519 sort of more broadly like what you you know, what 739 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:35.199 you're doing essentially and well again another thing to come 740 00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:39.159 back to, but you're engaging in critique. So and what 741 00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:41.400 is essentially a peer review. And the thing about peer 742 00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:43.639 review and critique is that the peer review and the 743 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.880 critique can be critiqued and reviewed and then you review 744 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:49.000 the review with I mean, it's like it's and that 745 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:51.559 I think a lot of people don't understand the value 746 00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.519 of that, because like the value of being wrong, I guess, 747 00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:55.599 is what I'm trying to say. 748 00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:56.679 I resent. 749 00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:58.960 Actually this is something I get to pat myself on 750 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.920 the back here, so I'm I'm going to But somebody, 751 00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:05.679 a very nice Polish listener, pointed out to me that 752 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:10.679 in my most recent episode I made a booboo in 753 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:14.239 the sense that I interchangeably used the term Warsaw ghetto 754 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:18.480 uprising and Warsaw uprising. Those are two distinct events, and 755 00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:21.599 I conflated them, at least in passing. And I didn't 756 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.199 get the dates wrong or anything like that with what 757 00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:25.840 I was talking about, but I did make a conflation, 758 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.360 and that is an error. That's you know, it's even 759 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.840 a major error, especially for you know, someone to make 760 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:34.480 who is trying to be authoritative on a particular subject, 761 00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:36.280 as you know, I am trying to do, at least 762 00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.800 to a certain degree, as Darrel's trying to do, as 763 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:41.000 as you're trying to do. And I think that that's 764 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.480 a valuable impulse, is to correct yourself. And I will 765 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:48.599 be fair to Daryl, especially after his initial defensive thread 766 00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:51.480 about making Churchill the villain of World War Two. He 767 00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:54.480 did correct himself a couple times. Credit where it to do. 768 00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:58.039 But I think that self correction is a very vital skill, 769 00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:02.039 and blocking is the opposite of self correction. It's a 770 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:03.800 way of saying I have nothing to correct. 771 00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:04.599 Yeah. 772 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:08.079 I mean so, you know, Dave Smith, I think once 773 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:12.519 he either quote tweeted me or quote tweeted Cooper referring 774 00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.039 to me and say something of the effect of, you know, 775 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:16.840 look at all the people ganging up on Cooper. There's 776 00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:19.920 a reason they're coming after his claims, or something that effect. 777 00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:23.800 And I replied to Dave and I basically said, you know, 778 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.920 you're clearly not familiar with this study of history, because 779 00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:30.760 if you were, peer review is an intrinsic part of this, right, 780 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.199 and it's not something that people shirk from or are 781 00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:37.480 scared of. You know, you need to be open to critique, 782 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:39.400 you know. And I think they would probably say, oh, 783 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.760 this isn't this isn't peer review, this is really bad faith, right, 784 00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:44.039 because you're disagreeing with the narrative that they believe in. 785 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:48.599 From a geopolitical standpoint. That furthers there. I think some 786 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.880 would say political objectives, which is as I said earlier. 787 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:53.800 You know, I think a lot of this is if 788 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:56.519 you can influence the past and impact the past and 789 00:39:57.079 --> 00:39:59.119 change people's beliefs and win hearts and minds, and you 790 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:00.800 can impact the press and in the future, and I 791 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:02.360 think that there might be a little bit of that 792 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:06.000 at play here as well, when it comes to the 793 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.599 telling of the history here. But all that is to say, 794 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:12.880 peer review is intrinsically a part of the study of history, 795 00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:15.440 and so if you're going to accept the label of historian, 796 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.840 you're going to allow people to refer to you to that. 797 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.719 Just because you're not writing an academic paper doesn't mean 798 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:26.519 you should or want to escape critique. 799 00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:26.960 Yeah. 800 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:28.880 No, And again, this is something I wanted to talk 801 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:30.599 to you about more towards the end of the conversation, 802 00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:32.119 but this is a good preview for it, because I 803 00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:37.840 think that we're both aligned on that idea. You reminded 804 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:40.039 me also of I think the first thing that made 805 00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:42.719 me a little put off by Darrel's reaction to your 806 00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:44.400 existence really, which. 807 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:46.159 He also, by the way, I thought was very funny. 808 00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:49.039 He thought that it was a podcast just dedicated to him, 809 00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.400 which it's not. Yes, you've made that very clear already. 810 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:54.880 Though technically I don't know if you knew this. The 811 00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:57.199 book Provoked was originally going to be co written by 812 00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.079 Daryl and Scott Horton. I don't know what happened with that, 813 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.559 but that was the original plan. So in a sense, 814 00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:06.159 I guess you are making a show just about him. 815 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.199 Interesting. I actually I wasn't aware of that. Actually, I 816 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:09.960 didn't know that it was going to be jointly authored 817 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:10.599 by the both of them. 818 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:13.239 It was just like an initial coll I don't think 819 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.000 that lasted very long, honestly. 820 00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:15.760 I mean, though. 821 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:20.400 Maybe honestly, given that Scott Horton has eight thousand footnotes 822 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.480 he loves to brag about, Daryl might be in those 823 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:23.320 footnotes somewhere. 824 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:25.559 I have no idea, but there are. 825 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.920 There are a lot of footnotes in Provoked, many many footnotes. 826 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:31.599 Yes, okay, cool, yeah, no, we'll jump back to that though. 827 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:34.480 But the thing that really put me off was when 828 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.039 Darrel was getting mad at you for that, and he 829 00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:40.760 saw that I was, you know, praising your you know, 830 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.519 your work, and you know, being skeptical of the amount 831 00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.920 of sources he'd read. He used words as something to 832 00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:49.440 the effect of, I can't believe you don't see what's 833 00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.280 going on here, which is to imply that I'm falling 834 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.000 for some kind of grand conspiracy theory, which that was 835 00:41:56.039 --> 00:42:00.039 when I was like, what is this? What am I 836 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.239 falling for here? I'm falling for critique or am I 837 00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:09.039 falling for somebody daring to question you? Because that seems 838 00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:11.440 the latter seems to be really what the issue is, 839 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.119 because there's nothing wrong with being critiqued. 840 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:17.000 There's nothing wrong with having your. 841 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:21.679 Work subject to criticism, even harsh criticism. Is there a 842 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.519 level of bad faith, it doesn't matter if the criticism 843 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:27.159 is sound, that's all that matters. You know, bad faith 844 00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:29.119 does matter at a certain point, but you know, when 845 00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:31.480 it comes down to it, if there's things that you 846 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.079 can't account for in your own work, that means you 847 00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:36.639 made a mistake and that needs to be accounted for. 848 00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:40.039 In his case, and anyway, I didn't want to make 849 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:43.800 this too much about internet drama, but it's kind of 850 00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:46.559 unavoidable because a lot of this kind of stuff happens 851 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.360 in social media, and as much as I don't like 852 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:50.960 to admit it, I think that we need to do 853 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:53.400 away with the idea that social media is not real 854 00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:56.360 life when it comes to things like politics, history and 855 00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:56.760 so forth. 856 00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:58.599 It is real life. It's been real life for a 857 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:00.159 lot longer. I think that we want to add. 858 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:02.920 Yeah, and I look, I think that that's first of all, 859 00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:06.239 the world revolves around internet drama, so it don't worry, 860 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:10.039 It's fine. But I think I think you're one hundred 861 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:12.800 percent right, Like I think that we need to be 862 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.719 open to feedback and critique, right, and again, it really 863 00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:21.559 comes down to labels, right, So I mean it should 864 00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:24.880 the bar be higher for somebody like a Darryl Cooper 865 00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.599 or Scott Horton versus a Dave Smith. Yes, absolutely. I 866 00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:31.960 mean if you accept the label of historian, if you're 867 00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.039 going to publish works with sources and footnotes, and you're 868 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:37.880 going to position yourself in that way, then you need 869 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:40.920 to be open and receptive to the fact that people 870 00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:43.119 are going to critique your work. I think that part 871 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:45.760 of this issue is that we're in this and I 872 00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:48.920 speak to this in the very in the first episode 873 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:50.920 of Crack About Histor, which is actually episode zero, where 874 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.320 I talk about the justification for the show, where you know, 875 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:56.719 I think that a lot of these people are kind 876 00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:59.880 of living in these bubbles where they're surrounded by people 877 00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:02.400 that think like them, because this is the popular thing 878 00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:08.400 right now. Right, you have revisionists, contrarian history. You spoke 879 00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:10.880 to this yourself before. You know Churchill, it was the 880 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:13.800 chief villain of World War two, you know, as an example, right, 881 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.440 Hodjaminal Husseini was a moderating influence things like this, and 882 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:21.519 that's kind of the popular shiny thing right now. And 883 00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:23.880 so I think that a lot of these people that 884 00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:27.960 are kind of telling these historical narratives maybe surround themselves 885 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:33.360 with people that think similarly, right, and maybe they don't 886 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:35.960 encounter pushback. You know. My whole thing, and I speak 887 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.679 to this again in episode zero, is that it needs 888 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.039 to be long form. The pushback needs to be substantive, 889 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:44.440 because what you see on x or Twitter, whatever you 890 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:47.159 want to call it, is a lot of people kind 891 00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.280 of reacting to the claim saying, oh, they're ridiculous. And 892 00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.280 it's a bit of a handwave right when you say, oh, 893 00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:55.320 of Churchill was a villain of World War two. Okay, 894 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:59.119 this guy's clearly off his rocker. But where's the follow up? Right, 895 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:03.320 where is the substance? Because his followers, you know, Horton, 896 00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.800 the Coopers of the World, et cetera, their followers always say, 897 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:11.320 stop attacking him, address the claims, and so that's kind 898 00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:14.679 of underpinning the entirety of Cracklawn history. Okay, we're not 899 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:18.440 attacking him, we're only addressing the claims. Yeah, and I 900 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.119 was gonna say the other I wonder if he's a listener. 901 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:24.800 The only person I've seen, really like high profile person 902 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:26.719 I've seen really try to do that so far as 903 00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:30.400 Coleman Hughes with his what was it seventeen hour conversation 904 00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:34.119 with Dave Smith, whatever it was, it was very good 905 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:36.119 and he was very they were respectful to each other. 906 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.119 And I haven't even finished listening to it, honestly, but 907 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:41.079 just listening to the first hour of it, it's like, yeah, 908 00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:43.320 it got tedious, Like I heard a lot of people 909 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:46.400 critique it, but that's the point, Like you have to 910 00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:48.719 be tedious, especially with people who are going to be, 911 00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.480 you know, making claims like that. Yeah, Oh, I wanted 912 00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.199 to ask before I forget you said that Daryl has 913 00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:58.679 no longer at least stopped people from referring to him 914 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.639 as a historian, or is he started calling himself a historian. 915 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.159 I have not seen him do that, but I also 916 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:06.079 haven't really been looking into him and his statements for 917 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.199 a while. So, first of all, very much big fan 918 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.639 of Coleman, Hugh. I thought the conversation with Dave Smith 919 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:13.880 was phenomenal. I watched the whole thing, and I thought 920 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:17.679 it was just a Coleman did in that episode what 921 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.199 I think I'm trying to do via podcast and Crackpot 922 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:25.559 History Live, and probably much more eloquently and more skillfully 923 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:27.159 than I could do in the same setting. 924 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:29.480 So very much to be in his position, yeah, that 925 00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:30.239 would be yeah. 926 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.760 Very much, very much respect what Coleman is doing and 927 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:37.400 is trying to do. So the historian reference. In I 928 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:43.800 think the most recent Tucker Carlson interview, Carlson refers to 929 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:48.280 to Darryl as the most august historian and he does that, 930 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:50.880 I believe, in front of him, and there's no there's 931 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.280 no pushback there. So my take on that is the 932 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.559 label has now been accepted, and the amount of pushback 933 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:01.159 that is commensurate with accept that label by way of 934 00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:04.679 you now labeling yourself or accepting others labeling you as 935 00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:07.800 a historian, should be commensurate, right that should it should 936 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.679 There should be an appropriate level of pushback to accepting 937 00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:13.840 that label and then making making claims that I think 938 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:15.760 are deserving of that pushback. 939 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.360 And without like you know, just leaving it open so 940 00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:21.239 that you can later say I never called myself a historian, 941 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:22.159 for example. 942 00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:23.119 Yeah. 943 00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:25.960 So, now, not to jump the gun with your future plans, 944 00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:28.800 but just because we've been talking about Daryl's work, are 945 00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.519 you planning on approaching Daryl's other series, including his as 946 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:35.960 Best I Can Tell, Superior and better research follow up 947 00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:37.280 series God's Socialist. 948 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:39.119 It's a good question. I mean, a lot of people 949 00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:41.719 really liked my coverage. If you're and loathing in the 950 00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:44.000 New Jerusalem, you know there's a lot of content to 951 00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:48.440 cover with uh provoked in Scott Wharton's current book, and 952 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:50.719 so I just released part two. There's a number of 953 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.239 chapters leading up to the present day. So I'm kind 954 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:55.440 of I'm kind of just focused on that. Will I 955 00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:59.320 will I go back to Cooper I think at some point, certainly, 956 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:01.360 But I think there's a lot of claims being made 957 00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:04.639 by a lot of influencers, a lot of pop historians 958 00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:07.119 that are deserving of attention. So there's just to say 959 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.119 there's not a lack of content that deserves coverage. 960 00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:12.480 Sure, Yeah, And I'll just say, just to put my 961 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:15.639 opinion out there, I have seen criticism that with God's 962 00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:17.960 Socialist at least, that Darro was just pulling from a 963 00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:21.480 handful of books and stretched it out into, like, you know, 964 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:25.159 a forty hour series or something, And that would probably 965 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:28.239 align with my skepticism of his having read literally hundreds 966 00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:31.039 of books about Israel, Zion as a mara of nationalism 967 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:34.440 and all that. But generally what I already knew and 968 00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:36.760 what I've come to know about the People's Temple and 969 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:40.800 the radical meltdowns of the seventies that aligns with most 970 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.760 of what he said and reported in that series. So 971 00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:46.159 I can, I mean, just based on my memory and 972 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:47.840 just based on you know, what I know, I can 973 00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:50.400 speak to the quality of that series for the most part. 974 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.000 And I would actually say the same goes for his 975 00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.519 one offs, like that one he did called The Anti Humans, 976 00:48:56.519 --> 00:48:59.159 which I still think is a very powerful episode. Though 977 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:01.559 that did have a couple of moments that made arch 978 00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.079 and eyebrow, particularly when he started referencing things about Yugoslavia, 979 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.320 which has kind of been my wheelhouse as well for 980 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.079 a while. And I'll just mention on one in that episode, 981 00:49:11.079 --> 00:49:12.199 I don't know if you've listened to it. 982 00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:12.920 He just kind of. 983 00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:16.679 Omitted consciously or otherwise of just who the Ustasia and 984 00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:19.480 wartime Croatia were, that the Partisans were killing at the 985 00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:21.159 end of the war, like he made it sound like 986 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.440 they were just innocent nationalists getting victimized by communists, and 987 00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.440 I remember just wrinkling my nose of that and being like, 988 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:29.320 I don't think and I saw it at the time, 989 00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:31.199 and maybe I still do. I don't really have any 990 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:33.960 reason to see otherwise, but at the time I was 991 00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:36.599 kind of like, I don't think you know much about 992 00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:41.880 the Ustasia if you're talking about them as innocent victims regardless. 993 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.880 I guess yeah, I'll broaden my question a little bit here, 994 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:49.880 because after seeing all these problems with his Fear and 995 00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.519 Loathing series that you highlighted, and not to mention his 996 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.440 extremely reckless and low quality errors with his current World 997 00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:58.440 War II series, which I'm sure you've been following that 998 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:01.000 a fair bit too, at least online, I guess what 999 00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.440 I'm wondering is, how are we supposed to trust anything 1000 00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:06.199 that he says, even though I do think that his 1001 00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:09.960 God's Socialist series stacks up. I'm now much more skeptical 1002 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:13.320 because of what you highlighted in fear and loathing, And 1003 00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:17.000 I guess, putting aside the motive for now, even if 1004 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:21.760 it's all accidental, let's just say that demonstrates at best 1005 00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:24.800 in competence, right. I mean, I guess the broad question 1006 00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:26.079 is for me here where do we. 1007 00:50:26.119 --> 00:50:27.599 Draw the line? Where do we draw the. 1008 00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:33.599 Line where incompetence meets calculation or where incompetence becomes calculation? 1009 00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:35.599 I mean, does it depend from person to person or 1010 00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.039 is there just a certain point where that just doesn't 1011 00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:40.239 matter anymore? So that's what I mean by a broader question. 1012 00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:42.400 I guess it's more philosophical in that sense. 1013 00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:45.519 Yeah, and it is a broad question. And I think 1014 00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:49.599 to zoom out fifty thousand foot view here. So I 1015 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.679 know I've referred to this previously, but I speak to 1016 00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.960 this in episode zero of Crackpot History. The motivation behind 1017 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:02.000 the show, and the motivation behind the show. The thing 1018 00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:04.559 that kind of lit a light bulb for me was 1019 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:06.559 and you probably saw this, Do you remember this the 1020 00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:09.519 episode of Joe Rogan between Douglas Murray and Dave Smith, 1021 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:10.159 that whole debate. 1022 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.039 Yeah, it's the debate that no one won. We all lost. 1023 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.840 Yeah, it's it's it's it kind will kind of set 1024 00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:19.559 the Internet on fire, right, and it fried everybody's brains. 1025 00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:23.119 But I think it was asking a really good question. 1026 00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:25.480 And even though Murray was kind of being t V 1027 00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:29.800 one there, it was this question of who can you trust? Right, 1028 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:34.719 and it was the experts versus the influencers. And that's 1029 00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.280 my language, I'm kind of paraphrasing, but that's kind of 1030 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.440 the gist of it, right, And I think that I 1031 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:45.239 think that we live in this period where to a degree, 1032 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:48.679 there's a large segment of people that look at the 1033 00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.519 experts on a variety of different subjects that typically revolves 1034 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:56.559 around politics, or history or generally the humanities. Right, these 1035 00:51:56.840 --> 00:52:01.079 these softer, less quantitative subjects compared to you know, civil 1036 00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:04.239 engineering or being a pilot or something like that, where 1037 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:05.840 you either land the plane or you don't, and the 1038 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.199 bridge either stands or the bridge collapses. But these softer 1039 00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:12.000 subjects that are more narrative driven or open to interpretation, 1040 00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:16.440 where people have a lack of trust for what, you know, 1041 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:19.480 the quote unquote experts. And I think that that's for 1042 00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.440 a variety of different reasons. You know, some of them political, 1043 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.679 some of them social, some of them given recent events, 1044 00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:28.599 and that results in a large segment of people looking 1045 00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:32.199 at the experts and saying, I don't trust the experts. 1046 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.880 You know, I don't trust the typical historical narrative. I 1047 00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:39.559 trust that guy because you know, he's telling me that 1048 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:43.559 the esoteric undercover history that nobody's really told me before 1049 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:47.039 because it's been censored from me. And I'm actually now 1050 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:49.880 a part of this special little in group audience, and 1051 00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:53.320 I actually feel very important because I'm a part of this, 1052 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:56.719 and now it's on me to share this esoteric knowledge 1053 00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.559 with other people so that I can feel special disseminating it. 1054 00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:03.719 It's this, it's this whole psychological I think flywheel of 1055 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.679 audiences and influencers, and this isn't really just about about 1056 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:12.559 uh Cooper here, right, This is about more people that 1057 00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:16.199 do this, and I think there's a there's a there's 1058 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:20.840 a motivating force behind it that's really kind of insular, 1059 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:23.159 and it's all about them saying, you know, if you 1060 00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:25.280 come to me, I will tell you the truth. I 1061 00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:27.960 will distill this hidden knowledge for you. I will make 1062 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:30.840 you feel special. I will tell you what's been hidden 1063 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:34.559 from you for decades. If you just listen to me. 1064 00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.639 And I think that there's something psychologically triggering there for 1065 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:38.400 a lot of people. 1066 00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:40.880 Sounds like a cult leader. 1067 00:53:41.159 --> 00:53:43.840 That's your that's your language, not mine. But I definitely 1068 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:45.840 think that. Look, I think I think that there's I 1069 00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.719 think that there is an aspect to this, right, and 1070 00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:50.079 when you when you really dive deep into it and 1071 00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:52.280 you you ask people, you know, what is it about 1072 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:56.239 what is it about Horton or Cooper or these these 1073 00:53:56.239 --> 00:53:59.519 different narratives that you that are that are really just 1074 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:03.920 in some cases out there that that interests you. And 1075 00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:06.760 people say, well, you know, I just don't trust the experts, 1076 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:08.880 or it's been it's been hidden from me, it's been censored, 1077 00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:10.639 and they come up with a way to kind of 1078 00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:14.599 justify listening to these alternative versions of history. And it starts, 1079 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.039 maybe a little bit innocently, and then you end it, 1080 00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:19.119 well Churchill, you ended a place where you say, well 1081 00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:21.280 Churchill was the chief villain of World War two, and 1082 00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:23.519 that has alongside, yeah, all that stuff, but on the 1083 00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:27.239 wrong side, deconstructing the foundation midst of the modern West, right, 1084 00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:30.679 and that has the potential to have real impact in 1085 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:31.440 the present day. 1086 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:35.000 Yeah, and and yeah, obviously I'm being a little facetious. 1087 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:37.159 But at the same time, if you listen to God's Socialist, 1088 00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:39.960 there's a point where Cooper does a very good job 1089 00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:41.719 explaining the cult leader psychology. 1090 00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:43.920 Let's just put it that way. I'm giving him shit. 1091 00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:49.559 But but uh yeah, I do think that you're you're 1092 00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:52.159 definitely speaking to something, and I think that really, you know, 1093 00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:54.079 we can't talk too much about it, obvious because you're 1094 00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:56.400 you only released a second episode, but with your second 1095 00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.719 series Fields of Gold, Fields of Red, that that does 1096 00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:02.840 seem to be really what you're getting at with Horton's 1097 00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:04.039 work is that he's. 1098 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:06.320 Really getting at this idea that. 1099 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:12.320 Russia was, as the title suggests, provoked into committing an 1100 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:18.360 act of flagrant territorial imperialism and annexation and shocking violence 1101 00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:21.320 on the European continent. More shocking than anything that's happened. 1102 00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:23.159 I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but probably 1103 00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:25.639 since World War Two in terms of scale, because as 1104 00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:28.280 bad as it was with the crackup of Yugoslavia in 1105 00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:30.840 the nineties, I mean, the scale was nothing like this. 1106 00:55:31.639 --> 00:55:34.519 So the point being is, I guess what I'm saying 1107 00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:36.519 is there's only two episodes of this series you're working on. 1108 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:39.960 But what are your takeaways from that project so far. 1109 00:55:40.039 --> 00:55:42.320 Let's pivot towards Horton a little bit here, because you've 1110 00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:43.360 mentioned him a couple of times. 1111 00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:47.400 Yeah, I think that there is you know, I found 1112 00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:51.039 in the first two chapters. I'm going chapter by chapter, 1113 00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:53.840 and the way that Horton breaks up the book is 1114 00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:58.880 by presidency. So he starts with Bush Senior and then 1115 00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:02.079 he goes basically from and So what I found is, 1116 00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:04.239 and I say this in the series, I think that 1117 00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:09.239 starting in the eighties is problematic because you're basically missing 1118 00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:14.280 hundreds of years of context that basically takes you to 1119 00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:17.800 the collapse of the Soviet Union. And you know, I 1120 00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:21.559 in his defense, there might be a very valid reason 1121 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:23.599 for doing that, Right, you can only fill so many 1122 00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:25.960 pages of a book you have to publish at some point, 1123 00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:28.679 and maybe you know, he wanted to focus on the 1124 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:31.840 role of US foreign policy. But when you actually dive 1125 00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:35.199 into the history of the region, right, hundreds of years 1126 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:39.639 of trying to quash Ukrainian nationalism and it just popping 1127 00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:42.000 back up, you're missing a lot of that, right, And 1128 00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:45.599 there's this moment in the book and I speak to 1129 00:56:45.639 --> 00:56:49.719 this where Horton actually does this deep dive. He really 1130 00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:53.639 focuses on the Yugoslav Wars because that's used as basically 1131 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:57.440 a poster child to basically point, in his opinion to 1132 00:56:57.559 --> 00:57:03.039 the malpractice of the West in provoking Russia. So a lot, 1133 00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:06.119 there's a big deep dive on Serbia and the Yugoslav Wars, 1134 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:08.440 and he does this whole oh, go ahead, go ahead. 1135 00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:11.159 Oh. I was just gonna say, he's following the lead of. 1136 00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:13.679 What I used to consider sort of the quote unquote 1137 00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:16.800 Occupy Wall Street position on that. And I say that 1138 00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:21.760 specifically because I remember when the Occupy website cited the 1139 00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:26.440 Bosnian War as like another example of rapacious US intervention 1140 00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:31.039 in imperialism, where supposedly the genocide of Bosnian Muslims by 1141 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:34.719 Bostian Serbs only happened because of NATO bombing. And the 1142 00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.000 more you look into that, they it's obviously not true, 1143 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:39.159 first of all, but second of all, their logic is, well, 1144 00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:42.000 they only started killing them after the bombing happened and 1145 00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:46.280 forced them closer into closer proximity with the Muslims. And 1146 00:57:46.840 --> 00:57:48.719 if all it takes is a cursory look at some 1147 00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:51.280 of the shit that Melosovich and his underlings were saying 1148 00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:55.639 about the Bossian Muslims, to say nothing of the regional 1149 00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:58.559 tensions that had existed at that point for going on 1150 00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:01.800 fifty years, you know, well more than that really, just 1151 00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:04.360 since the formation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Like those 1152 00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:08.239 ethnic tensions, they weren't ancient. That's another canard from that era, 1153 00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.480 from the nineties. They weren't ancient hatreds, but they were old, 1154 00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:14.159 they were multi generational, and there was a lot of 1155 00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:18.000 unfinished business that it started in the nineteen twenties. So 1156 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:20.239 I'm assuming that's like that was like the sort of 1157 00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:23.320 trajectory he was taking was like, oh, well, none of 1158 00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:26.880 that stuff matters. It was only because America involved itself 1159 00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:29.440 or NATO involved itself. Am I remembering that correctly? 1160 00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:33.320 Yeah? I think that's that's directionally correct, right. But there's 1161 00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:37.000 just there's all these at a fifty thousand foot view, 1162 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:40.800 they just is that if the US can be wrong, 1163 00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:45.800 it's wrong, right, And if Russia, if Russia was aggrieved, 1164 00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:49.559 Russia was aggrieved. That's that's kind of my takeaway having 1165 00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:51.679 been two chapters through this. But there's just there's a 1166 00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:54.599 number of claims that are incredibly problematic. Right, There's there's 1167 00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:58.039 genocide denial or minimalism as it relates to as it 1168 00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:01.199 relates to Srebenitza. There's uh, there's. 1169 00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.039 Claim the lead of he's found the lead of Noam Chomsky. 1170 00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.840 Then, yeah, Noam Chomsky who famously, by the way, and 1171 00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:10.280 his and is published on the record on this denying 1172 00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:13.119 the genocide in Cambodia and the killing fields as well 1173 00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:15.000 at the time while it was happening. 1174 00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:17.599 And even though people don't really care about that stuff, 1175 00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:20.440 that stuff as much, it's worth mentioning. Also pals with 1176 00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:23.719 Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein, and it looks like so. 1177 00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:25.920 There's there's a there's a there's just a lot of these. 1178 00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:28.639 There's a lot of these minimalism, there's a lot of minimalism, 1179 00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:31.480 a lot of denialism has related to this stuff. There's 1180 00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:38.840 the claim that that the US support for the for 1181 00:59:38.920 --> 00:59:41.719 the Bosnians or or he makes his sorry, he makes 1182 00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:46.239 his claim basically saying that the actions of the US 1183 00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:52.119 in Yugoslavia and then in Czechshniya uh and attacks against 1184 00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:57.880 Saddam were basically the basis of bin Laden's grievances against 1185 00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:00.639 the United States, and that the United States in a 1186 01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:04.920 way then provoked nine to eleven, as opposed to it 1187 01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:08.599 just being a flagrant act of unprovoked terrorism. And I 1188 01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:11.360 go in part in a part two of Fields of Gold, 1189 01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:15.159 Fields of Red, I dive into what bin Laden actually said, 1190 01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:19.760 and his claim was that you know US forces in Iraq, 1191 01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:21.320 he puts it, you know the land of the of 1192 01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:24.800 the two Holy Mosques. He basically saw them as crusaders, right, 1193 01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:29.320 and for that reason uses that as justification to leap 1194 01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:31.880 frog to jihad, to leap frog to nine to eleven, 1195 01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:35.480 when in reality, the Saudis invited the US there, right, 1196 01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:38.320 I mean right, like the US army was there at 1197 01:00:38.360 --> 01:00:42.800 the invitation of King Fod and Saddam actually briefly in 1198 01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.760 January of ninety one, beginning of end of January, beginning 1199 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:49.400 of February invaded Saudi Arabia for a hot second. He 1200 01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.360 actually took They took the city of Kafji, occupied it 1201 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:55.639 and then were pushed out by coalition forces. And so 1202 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:59.159 all of this context, similar to you know, my critique 1203 01:00:59.199 --> 01:01:03.000 of Cooper, there's a lot of context there behind these 1204 01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:05.719 stories that's missing. And again you have to ask the 1205 01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:06.880 question why. 1206 01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:08.159 Which we will get to in a second. 1207 01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:10.719 But there is something that we've kind of we've referenced 1208 01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:15.360 it a couple times. The issue of citations in Horton's 1209 01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:19.159 case seems to be the opposite of Cooper's issues and 1210 01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:21.320 with citation, because. 1211 01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:23.559 Again, he loves to bring it up. 1212 01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:26.000 I mean, I remember I've seen him, on two separate 1213 01:01:26.039 --> 01:01:28.119 occasions bring up the fact that his book has over 1214 01:01:28.159 --> 01:01:32.760 eight thousand citations. And you pointed out earlier that many 1215 01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:35.199 of these citations are things that don't always stand up 1216 01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:37.559 to scrutiny because in some cases they don't even seem 1217 01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:40.679 to exist anymore because they're broken links or whatever. So 1218 01:01:41.320 --> 01:01:43.000 I guess, yeah, That's what I'm wondering is, how would 1219 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:46.639 you characterize the overuse of sources or citations in contrast 1220 01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:51.360 to the misuser outright neglective sources and citations in works 1221 01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:51.639 like this? 1222 01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:55.000 And to what extent are all those methods of a. 1223 01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:57.639 Piece in your opinion ext I personally, I see it 1224 01:01:57.639 --> 01:02:01.199 as all kind of like different methodology towards the same end, 1225 01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:02.079 if that makes sense. 1226 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:04.840 Yeah, So I would say that, you know, and again 1227 01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:07.199 this is only my second series, but I would say 1228 01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:12.079 that Cooper Cooper sometimes sources sometimes doesn't, which then puts 1229 01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:14.000 you on that scavenger hunt chase that I was kind 1230 01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:17.880 of referring to earlier. Horton does use a lot of sources, 1231 01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:19.920 and to you know, to his credit, a lot of 1232 01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:23.920 them are are fine. Right. There's there's references to you 1233 01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:30.079 know NSA archive documents, you know, unclassified documentation, academic papers, 1234 01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:34.800 or you know, thought pieces from historians or regional experts. 1235 01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:37.719 There's there's a lot in there that is perfectly fine. 1236 01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:40.880 There's also some stuff in there, like esoteric blogs from 1237 01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:44.400 people that are kind of engaging in you know, apology 1238 01:02:44.519 --> 01:02:47.199 of Melosovich and stuff like that. Websites that haven't been 1239 01:02:47.239 --> 01:02:49.559 updated since the nineties. Those are few and far between, 1240 01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:51.800 but they're in there. And then, as I said, you know, 1241 01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:54.400 there are there are some articles that are just deadlinks 1242 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:56.960 that you can't really fact check because the source doesn't 1243 01:02:57.000 --> 01:02:59.119 exist and you can't really see it on wayback Machine 1244 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:02.000 or Internet arts or anything like that. So, you know, 1245 01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:05.800 I don't really take issue as much with his sourcing, 1246 01:03:05.800 --> 01:03:07.400 although as again, as I said, some of them are 1247 01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:09.559 a little bit out there. But I do think that 1248 01:03:09.639 --> 01:03:12.639 the way that he interprets those sources is what's really 1249 01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:13.280 an issue. 1250 01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:14.079 Okay, gotcha. 1251 01:03:14.119 --> 01:03:16.840 So so it's more on him in this particular case 1252 01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:19.119 than on the use of sources because sometimes when I 1253 01:03:20.199 --> 01:03:23.880 because you know, obviously I'm biased in this direction because 1254 01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:26.599 I've been stuck reading academic books for so long, but 1255 01:03:27.639 --> 01:03:32.960 generally speaking, they don't really go overboard with footnotes. With 1256 01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:36.079 a large number of footnotes and sources, I mean, each 1257 01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:39.079 chapter usually has anywhere from of like a you know, 1258 01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:41.639 like an academic history book, each chapter has anywhere from 1259 01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:44.760 around seventy to two hundred and fifty. 1260 01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:46.719 Sources, which is a lot, for sure. 1261 01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:50.480 But at the same time, when you're seeing a non 1262 01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:56.599 academic book be flush with hundreds thousands of sources, like 1263 01:03:56.760 --> 01:03:59.280 more than you usually see in an academic book or 1264 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:01.920 a non academic book, it feels like some game of 1265 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:04.840 obfuscation is going on. That's just my suspicion. I have 1266 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:07.039 not even looked at Horton's book. I have way less 1267 01:04:07.039 --> 01:04:09.480 of a dog in that fight, obviously. I guess what 1268 01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:12.719 I'm saying is when I see too many or too 1269 01:04:12.760 --> 01:04:15.840 few sources, I tend to have the same reaction of 1270 01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:17.199 something's not right here. 1271 01:04:17.239 --> 01:04:17.480 Now. 1272 01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:20.679 I guess I'm maybe I'm just asking for some reassurance here, 1273 01:04:20.920 --> 01:04:24.079 am I like, am I seeing something that isn't there? 1274 01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:25.840 When I see that kind of thing? 1275 01:04:26.119 --> 01:04:30.960 So look, there are hundreds of footnotes per chapter, and 1276 01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:34.519 I say this in the series, right, that isn't necessarily 1277 01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.159 a bad thing. If he wants to lean on over sourcing. 1278 01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:40.840 It's definitely more than I'm used to, which I think 1279 01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:44.719 you've pointed out, which is correct given the more academic 1280 01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:49.239 history books that one would read. I don't necessarily I 1281 01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:51.599 tried to go into this and I'm going into each 1282 01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:53.920 chapter with an open mind as to the sourcing. But 1283 01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:58.559 there was one instance that actually Horton Horton tweeted at 1284 01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:00.320 me or quote tweeted me again we have some kind 1285 01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:02.840 of interaction on on X with this. It was it 1286 01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:07.079 was very funny because there's a reference at the beginning 1287 01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:10.360 of the book to I think he's talking about something 1288 01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:12.639 in relation to the Middle East. He within the first 1289 01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:14.440 five seconds of the book, he talks he talks a 1290 01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.239 little bit about US foreign policy in the Middle East in 1291 01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:19.400 likud or something which is clearly relevant to you know, 1292 01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:23.199 the history of the Russo Ukrainian War. And the footnote 1293 01:05:23.199 --> 01:05:26.400 for the claim is he wrote a book on the 1294 01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:30.519 Middle East. I think it's called Enough already, and he 1295 01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:33.599 refers to it in the footnote, and then there's an 1296 01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:38.079 there's a link in the footnote to Amazon for the book, 1297 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.320 which I thought was incredible. And I actually called this 1298 01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:46.639 out in the episode and on Twitter, and Horton clapped 1299 01:05:46.679 --> 01:05:49.000 back and said, it's not there, and he took a 1300 01:05:49.039 --> 01:05:51.599 picture of a hard copy of the book where the 1301 01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:55.599 link isn't there. I'm using a digital version which does 1302 01:05:55.639 --> 01:05:57.519 have it. And I posted a screenshot of it which 1303 01:05:57.559 --> 01:05:59.400 which does have it. And I didn't get a response, 1304 01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:02.000 but I found that to be definitely a highlight. 1305 01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:04.679 It's well, I mean, yeah, that's an interesting thing too, 1306 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:07.239 because the idea of I always kind of smile when 1307 01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:10.440 I see a historian site themselves like their previous work. 1308 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:12.679 There's nothing wrong with doing that, of course, and there's 1309 01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:15.880 nothing wrong with advertising your own work either. But when 1310 01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:17.519 you when you put a link in there to the 1311 01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:19.719 Amazon page, that does feel kind of funny. That feels 1312 01:06:19.760 --> 01:06:21.559 like something you would do more in like a like 1313 01:06:21.599 --> 01:06:23.679 an opinion piece. You know, when you put hyperlinks in 1314 01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:26.360 an opinion piece, that that always happens, you know, it 1315 01:06:26.440 --> 01:06:29.159 just it does have kind of like a weird vibe 1316 01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:30.880 to it. 1317 01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:32.800 It was great. I was laughing a little bit when 1318 01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:34.960 I when I stumbled across that. But that's a part 1319 01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:36.400 of it, right. You got to you gotta look at 1320 01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:39.719 the footnotes. You gotta see what are the sources that 1321 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:43.280 are being referred to here? And you know, are they 1322 01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:45.519 do they really pass the smell test? 1323 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:46.119 Yeah? 1324 01:06:46.119 --> 01:06:48.920 And I actually think I have it in my head 1325 01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.000 a little bit of why. I think it's off putting 1326 01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:53.960 when someone over uses in my opinion, it's just my opinion, 1327 01:06:54.039 --> 01:06:56.360 but when I feel like sources are being overused, it's 1328 01:06:56.400 --> 01:07:01.280 something that I had very strongly drilled into my head 1329 01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:04.400 by my first professor my first semester. 1330 01:07:04.519 --> 01:07:07.079 She was very harsh. She said, you're outsourcing your argument. 1331 01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:08.440 Don't do that. 1332 01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:12.800 And I was like, oh, okay, And that basically means 1333 01:07:13.079 --> 01:07:16.039 make your argument and stand by it, use evidence of 1334 01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:19.440 course to support it, but don't outsource it. And I 1335 01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:21.760 think in a sense what I'm picking up on and 1336 01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:24.519 maybe it's unfair. Again, I have not read provoked, but 1337 01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:27.960 it reminds me of what Tucker Carlson has been doing lately, 1338 01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:32.719 where he's essentially outsourcing his own arguments to weird radicals 1339 01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:35.519 of all stripes. He can therefore say, well, I'm not 1340 01:07:35.559 --> 01:07:39.239 saying this, that's my terrible Tucker Carlson impression. But it's like, 1341 01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:41.719 I'm not saying this, but these people seem to think this, 1342 01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:44.800 and it's like, yeah, well you are saying it though, 1343 01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:47.559 because you're not pushing back, you're getting them to say something. 1344 01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:49.719 That you won't yourself say or assert. Though. 1345 01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:51.880 I think he's becoming a little looser with what he's 1346 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:54.599 willing to assert at this point. But the point being 1347 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:57.679 is that that's sort of what I feel when I 1348 01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:01.599 see someone oversight. I feel like what they're trying to 1349 01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:05.199 do is saying is say without saying I'm not saying this. 1350 01:08:06.039 --> 01:08:08.960 All these experts are saying this, this appeal to authority, 1351 01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:11.079 which I noted. I remember you you noted that it's 1352 01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:14.159 like appealing to authority in order to make it clear that. 1353 01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:17.000 You're not the one just saying this. These people are 1354 01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:19.720 saying this thing that I'm just suggesting. Do you see 1355 01:08:19.720 --> 01:08:20.439 what I'm getting at here? 1356 01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:22.000 It's kind of a week I do. 1357 01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:23.239 Yeah. 1358 01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:26.079 I think I think that that might certainly be I 1359 01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:28.760 think I think that that certainly might be a part 1360 01:08:28.760 --> 01:08:29.000 of it. 1361 01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:29.359 Yeah. 1362 01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:31.880 I mean, well, it's also a question of, you know, 1363 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:34.359 if you're gonna if you're going to have all of 1364 01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:38.359 those citations, you know, does anybody actually have the time 1365 01:08:38.439 --> 01:08:42.840 to read thousands and thousands of pages of material to 1366 01:08:42.920 --> 01:08:45.640 back up the justification for those footnotes. So let me 1367 01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:49.720 let me give you an example. In part two of 1368 01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:53.119 Fields of Gold, Fields of Red, Horton refers to this 1369 01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:59.479 OSCE report on on Kosovo. And I actually pulled up 1370 01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:02.800 the report. It's nearly seven hundred and fifty pages. And 1371 01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:06.680 in the context of that report, Horton mentions it briefly 1372 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:10.119 and he says, the OSSE report said that there wasn't 1373 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.000 a finding of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. And so I 1374 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:16.439 went into the report and you know, command after control, 1375 01:09:16.520 --> 01:09:19.000 a f depending on you have my macro windows, whatever 1376 01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:23.520 ethnic cleansing, and lo and behold, it's certainly in the report, 1377 01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:28.640 in the section on sexual violence, ethnic cleansing did occur, right, 1378 01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:30.520 And so I say that in the episode, I say, 1379 01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:33.279 you know, did Horton read this report? 1380 01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:33.600 Right? 1381 01:09:33.640 --> 01:09:37.760 He's saying something that is just clearly incorrect if you 1382 01:09:37.800 --> 01:09:40.840 actually take the time to review the report. That he's 1383 01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:43.479 referring to. And that goes for any of these people, 1384 01:09:43.520 --> 01:09:47.039 you know, Horton or otherwise that are referencing or over 1385 01:09:47.119 --> 01:09:49.800 referencing as you would put it, or just using academic 1386 01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:53.600 sources that are clearly fine, but maybe their reading of 1387 01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:56.479 it is a little bit slanted because maybe they haven't 1388 01:09:56.479 --> 01:09:58.479 really given it the time of day that they actually 1389 01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:02.520 need to to really inform the points or the arguments 1390 01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:05.399 that they're making in their work or their output. 1391 01:10:05.600 --> 01:10:07.880 Yeah, I mean, and that's something I know we didn't 1392 01:10:07.880 --> 01:10:09.880 really touch on too much, but that's something that Daryl 1393 01:10:09.960 --> 01:10:11.319 was doing a lot and fear and loath than in 1394 01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:13.680 the New Jerusalem, where he was like taking stuff from 1395 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:18.079 perfectly find great sources like tom segives one palaestin complete anymore. 1396 01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:18.760 As his righteous victims. 1397 01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:21.079 Those are the only two secondary sources I can remember 1398 01:10:21.079 --> 01:10:22.640 that he actually openly cited. 1399 01:10:22.680 --> 01:10:23.960 But again it's been a while. 1400 01:10:24.439 --> 01:10:27.079 But he would like take quotes, but he would leave 1401 01:10:27.079 --> 01:10:30.079 out certain parts of them or skip certain parts of 1402 01:10:30.119 --> 01:10:31.960 them to get to another point in a way that 1403 01:10:32.239 --> 01:10:34.840 changes the meaning of what the actual quote does. And 1404 01:10:35.119 --> 01:10:36.800 in a sense, that's actually another thing that I'll say 1405 01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:37.199 for Darryl. 1406 01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:39.479 He's very good at that. That's a very hard thing 1407 01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:39.800 to do. 1408 01:10:39.960 --> 01:10:42.800 I mean, I've been judicious with the quotes that you 1409 01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:45.760 use when you're doing this kind of long form podcasting. 1410 01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:48.560 I struggle with that all the time because sometimes there's 1411 01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:51.119 a big block quote and it doesn't make sense to 1412 01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:53.760 say the whole thing. So I want to cut stuff, 1413 01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:56.880 and I do. I cut stuff out sometimes, but I 1414 01:10:56.960 --> 01:10:59.000 have to be very careful that what I'm cutting out 1415 01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:03.039 is not cutting out crucial context, because sometimes somebody is 1416 01:11:03.079 --> 01:11:07.800 talking about something very specific, or they make a very 1417 01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:10.520 specific reference, but what they're talking about is very broad, 1418 01:11:11.079 --> 01:11:14.479 if that makes sense, And I think if you're trying 1419 01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:17.079 to get to the gist of what the subject is saying, 1420 01:11:17.960 --> 01:11:20.159 you don't want to cut out the specific example that 1421 01:11:20.199 --> 01:11:22.640 they might give if that example is really what they're 1422 01:11:22.680 --> 01:11:26.119 talking about. But you know, making that judgment is is 1423 01:11:26.279 --> 01:11:27.920 very hard, is what I'm trying to say. 1424 01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:33.479 Yeah, it that does make sense. But you know, there 1425 01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:37.039 and there are many examples of in some of the 1426 01:11:37.079 --> 01:11:39.880 work that I've done covering the series of you know, 1427 01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:43.119 maybe context missing or quotes being truncated or not not 1428 01:11:43.159 --> 01:11:46.880 necessarily referred to accurately. And I think that's certainly a 1429 01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:48.760 part of it. You know, there's this one example, and 1430 01:11:48.920 --> 01:11:51.560 we again you know, talked about chasing down sources, where 1431 01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:56.680 Cooper refers to this Nazi racial scientist. He doesn't say 1432 01:11:56.720 --> 01:11:58.840 where the quote's from or who it is, and it's 1433 01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:03.199 it's Hans Gunther, who is as basically this Nazi genesis 1434 01:12:03.199 --> 01:12:06.159 that you may be familiar with, and he's he basically 1435 01:12:06.199 --> 01:12:08.640 refers to him. He and you know, Cooper does this 1436 01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:13.159 throughout the series where he basically he always refers to 1437 01:12:13.279 --> 01:12:18.079 Zionism adjacent to other, as he puts it, other radical 1438 01:12:18.079 --> 01:12:24.079 ideologies like Bolshevism and Nazism to basically infer or imply 1439 01:12:24.319 --> 01:12:27.159 guilt by association. He does this repeatedly throughout the series. 1440 01:12:27.159 --> 01:12:31.199 But he basically says, well, you know, even Nazi racial scientists, 1441 01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:34.880 and again I'm paraphrasing here, we're fond of or thought 1442 01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:38.840 thought that Zionism had some kind of legitimacy because it 1443 01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:43.079 basically separated the Jews from from Europe, from the from 1444 01:12:43.119 --> 01:12:45.960 the Reich. And he refers to a quote from Hans 1445 01:12:45.960 --> 01:12:49.439 Gunther where if you actually read the full quote, it's 1446 01:12:49.439 --> 01:12:53.880 clear that Gunther isn't endorsing Zionism. If anything, it's very 1447 01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:57.640 clear that the Nazis saw the ones that commented on 1448 01:12:57.680 --> 01:13:00.039 this saw Zionism as a means to an end of 1449 01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:03.119 step one, get the Jews out of Europe. Step two, 1450 01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:06.439 have them congregate in a single place, and then step 1451 01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:08.920 three when we get there, which we will after we 1452 01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:13.239 defeat the British in North Africa, kill them once they're congregated, 1453 01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:15.640 and it makes our job much easier in the end. 1454 01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:17.680 And there's a lot of evidence for that, right. There 1455 01:13:17.720 --> 01:13:20.640 was the formation of the Early Stages einzot Scrup in 1456 01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:23.319 Egypt that was going to basically go into the Middle 1457 01:13:23.319 --> 01:13:26.399 East to kill all the Jews in Palestine in the 1458 01:13:26.399 --> 01:13:28.079 Mandate if they made it. 1459 01:13:28.039 --> 01:13:31.000 There, right, And that was also a very weird, underbaked 1460 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:34.119 scheme that Hajja Mein al Husseini had his fingerprints on, 1461 01:13:34.279 --> 01:13:36.199 and it just turned into like a very small commando 1462 01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:39.560 unit and they didn't do very much ultimately. But again, 1463 01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:41.439 I mean, I don't want to spoil anything for anyone 1464 01:13:41.479 --> 01:13:43.920 who hasn't listened to it yet, and I wouldn't blame 1465 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:46.520 you because it's six hours and eighteen minutes long. But 1466 01:13:47.239 --> 01:13:51.079 I found some very compelling, circumstantial evidence that Haja Means 1467 01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:55.119 ambitions for the Hanshar division was to get them to 1468 01:13:55.119 --> 01:13:57.760 go to Palestine, to the Mandate after they were done 1469 01:13:57.800 --> 01:14:01.000 in Bosnia, because there was a memo that gutt Lauburger 1470 01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:04.640 submitted that or I think was submitted to Guttlaberger, the 1471 01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:07.880 second in command of the SS of Offen SS, in 1472 01:14:07.920 --> 01:14:12.000 which what Haja Mean was proposing was reported on, and 1473 01:14:12.039 --> 01:14:16.439 what he was proposing was pacifying the Bossian region and 1474 01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:20.159 then afterward other actions. What the hell else could he 1475 01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:22.680 possibly have had in mind? Is how I put it 1476 01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:27.159 in my episode for the Handshar a waffen SS division, 1477 01:14:27.439 --> 01:14:30.920 very well trained, very well equipped at that point, early 1478 01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:33.359 on twenty three thousand strong. 1479 01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:34.840 I mean, I think we can. 1480 01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:36.680 I don't think we really need to do too much 1481 01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:38.279 dot connecting, as you like to say. 1482 01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:40.279 There's smoke there. There's a lot of smoke there. 1483 01:14:40.319 --> 01:14:43.399 I think. Well, I mean, people don't really know this, 1484 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:46.680 but I mean the first and second battles of l 1485 01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:51.439 Alamane were months apart in nineteen forty two, and in 1486 01:14:51.520 --> 01:14:55.199 Palestine there was panic, right, I mean, the Germans were 1487 01:14:55.279 --> 01:14:59.039 in Egypt right for a brief period of time, and 1488 01:14:59.680 --> 01:15:03.600 that panicked people in Palestine. Because you know, they knew 1489 01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:08.479 what was happening in Europe obviously. And I mean again, 1490 01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:10.600 you know, the formation of this as you put it, 1491 01:15:10.640 --> 01:15:15.439 this very early stages Einzat's commando group for Egypt, which 1492 01:15:15.479 --> 01:15:19.800 obviously never really came to be in full in full 1493 01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:23.000 bore because they didn't take over Palestine or Egypt for 1494 01:15:23.039 --> 01:15:26.920 that matter, is I think indicative of what what the 1495 01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:27.600 plans were. 1496 01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:28.760 Yeah. 1497 01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:31.560 Oh absolutely, And that's something that Matthias Kunsel I believe 1498 01:15:31.600 --> 01:15:34.359 really helped demonstrate in his most recent book. Again, that's 1499 01:15:34.359 --> 01:15:37.840 something that unless you're really deep into this subject or 1500 01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:40.000 as autistic as you and I you're, people are probably 1501 01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:41.680 not going to be reading that stuff. But it's you know, 1502 01:15:41.680 --> 01:15:43.720 it's important to talk about it, and it's you know, 1503 01:15:44.119 --> 01:15:46.479 and it's a complete context as well. And and yeah, 1504 01:15:46.479 --> 01:15:49.039 I think what you brought up to with Daryl citation 1505 01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:51.399 of this guy, I'm sorry if I derailed you there. 1506 01:15:51.479 --> 01:15:54.439 I just but you know, this is my wheelhouse when 1507 01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:56.279 it comes to Haja means, so I tend to just 1508 01:15:56.319 --> 01:15:58.399 like jump in whenever there's a reason to bring him up. 1509 01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:01.439 But yeah, like it rings also of how people love 1510 01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:04.359 to bring up the Havita agreement to describe how, oh, well, 1511 01:16:04.399 --> 01:16:07.840 the Nazis were actually Zionists. Well, they, as you said, 1512 01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:10.359 it's a means to an end. And on top of that, 1513 01:16:10.439 --> 01:16:13.279 if you look at anything said by people I think 1514 01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:15.600 up to Adolf Hitler himself, maybe you can correct me 1515 01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:19.279 on that they saw Zionism as an existential threat to 1516 01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:22.079 be dealt with because a Jewish state was the last 1517 01:16:22.079 --> 01:16:24.159 thing that they wanted. They just didn't want Jews in 1518 01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:26.479 their country. Sure, but they didn't want Jews to have 1519 01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:28.560 a country at all. They just didn't want them to 1520 01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:32.000 be So, yeah, if you had anything else to say 1521 01:16:32.039 --> 01:16:35.479 on that subject, on Daryl citation of that eugenicist and 1522 01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:37.359 add to what I just said there, please do. 1523 01:16:37.600 --> 01:16:40.039 Yeah, I mean, the Havara Agreement is something I mean, 1524 01:16:40.079 --> 01:16:44.520 you see this in the Twitter sphere, low level discourse 1525 01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:46.720 back and forth. I mean, it's. 1526 01:16:46.560 --> 01:16:47.960 Always yesterday, I saw it. 1527 01:16:48.039 --> 01:16:51.640 Yeah, it's always an it's always an order of operations question. 1528 01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:54.680 It's right, It's like, okay, So thevar agreements existed, and 1529 01:16:54.760 --> 01:16:56.600 you know, I think a couple tens of thousands of 1530 01:16:56.680 --> 01:17:00.840 Jews escaped, and then what happened, right? What happened after that? 1531 01:17:01.079 --> 01:17:05.039 What happened after the you know, the Nazis invaded Poland 1532 01:17:05.840 --> 01:17:08.600 and you know, Britain and France declared war on them, 1533 01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:11.359 and then millions of Jews were killed. That piece is 1534 01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:13.680 never kind of a part of the equation, which I 1535 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:16.319 find very interesting to say. 1536 01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:18.079 The least or all you got to even just point 1537 01:17:18.119 --> 01:17:21.439 out too, is what did those tens of thousands? Will say, 1538 01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:23.720 I don't remember what the actual number was of Jews 1539 01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:26.720 who escaped Germany and got to Palestine. What did they 1540 01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:28.159 have to do in return? What did they come to 1541 01:17:28.199 --> 01:17:30.960 Palestine with? Oh, they clothes on their backs. They gave 1542 01:17:31.039 --> 01:17:34.680 up everything. That's that's not exactly a fair trade to get. 1543 01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:36.439 I mean, like, if if all it was about was 1544 01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:39.079 getting rid of them and giving them a home, then 1545 01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:41.079 I would suspect they'd let them have some money. 1546 01:17:41.079 --> 01:17:42.279 But no, it's not about that. 1547 01:17:42.680 --> 01:17:45.279 Like that, I don't trust the people who bring up 1548 01:17:45.279 --> 01:17:49.119 the Havre agreement unless it's out of just general historical interests. 1549 01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:51.880 I just I rarely have time for them. I actually 1550 01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:52.960 get really annoyed. 1551 01:17:52.600 --> 01:17:53.079 At that part. 1552 01:17:53.159 --> 01:17:55.640 Well, the other one, the other one that gets brought 1553 01:17:55.720 --> 01:18:01.000 up is the Jewish embargo or you know, uh, what 1554 01:18:01.159 --> 01:18:05.439 is it? The U, the boycott, the boycott of Nazi 1555 01:18:05.479 --> 01:18:10.399 Germany in the aftermath, I believe of Crystal Knocht at 1556 01:18:10.399 --> 01:18:12.520 the you know, the beginning stages of the Holocaust, as 1557 01:18:12.520 --> 01:18:15.239 if you know, oh, look, the Jews deserved it because 1558 01:18:15.279 --> 01:18:18.039 they refused to buy German products, and it was this 1559 01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:22.680 Hodgepodge boycott that really didn't have a huge impact. I 1560 01:18:22.680 --> 01:18:26.760 mean this, Remember, this is an industrializing Germany, building the Autobahn, 1561 01:18:26.920 --> 01:18:30.760 ramping up wartime production, and and you know, eventually suffering 1562 01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:34.199 economically for it, because there really wasn't any foundation upon 1563 01:18:34.239 --> 01:18:36.800 which for them to be to be doing this. But 1564 01:18:36.960 --> 01:18:39.960 you know, as if, as if some Jews in Brooklyn 1565 01:18:40.520 --> 01:18:44.119 not purchasing you know, German strudel is going to have 1566 01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:49.720 a serious impact on on Hitler's Third Reich rearming and reindustrializing. Right, 1567 01:18:49.720 --> 01:18:52.960 It's just there's just so many holes in the story, 1568 01:18:53.239 --> 01:18:55.279 and it just it really is just Swiss cheese at 1569 01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:55.880 the end of the day. 1570 01:18:55.960 --> 01:18:58.119 Well, and this is why it turns into denial or 1571 01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:01.720 outright skepticism, because then when you make that point, they'll 1572 01:19:01.760 --> 01:19:04.119 you can you know, they'll say well, you know, and 1573 01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:06.359 then you can say, well, also, yeah, because of course 1574 01:19:06.399 --> 01:19:08.520 those Polish and Soviet shteadl Jews. 1575 01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:09.359 Oh all that. 1576 01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:11.960 You know, that boycott really impacted them. They were really 1577 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:14.399 instrumental in that boycott while they were trying to streak together. 1578 01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:18.399 Yeah, people people with no people, no functioning toilets, boycotting 1579 01:19:18.439 --> 01:19:22.079 the German economy. Yeah, in in Bello, in Bella Rossa 1580 01:19:22.199 --> 01:19:24.439 is really gonna have an impact there for sure. 1581 01:19:24.600 --> 01:19:27.399 And because that is a very obvious and fair point 1582 01:19:27.439 --> 01:19:29.640 that the vast majority of Jews that were killed by 1583 01:19:29.640 --> 01:19:33.159 the Germans had little to i'd say zero power, negative 1584 01:19:33.199 --> 01:19:36.720 power in anything when it came to world affairs. That's 1585 01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:38.680 when denial starts to creep in, because that's all they 1586 01:19:38.680 --> 01:19:41.520 have left when they make that argument, right exactly. Yeah, 1587 01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:45.000 so so so I I And you know, honestly, we 1588 01:19:45.079 --> 01:19:46.960 kind of that was just a really fun tangent there 1589 01:19:47.000 --> 01:19:50.920 because I just I love nitpicking like that against deniers there. 1590 01:19:50.960 --> 01:19:54.159 But I would be remiss if I didn't do my 1591 01:19:54.319 --> 01:19:58.319 best to give your critics and and the ardent defenders 1592 01:19:58.319 --> 01:20:02.119 of people like Darryl and Hort and just that generally speaking, 1593 01:20:02.119 --> 01:20:04.520 I guess we can call him the paleoconservative or visionist 1594 01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:09.159 camp that they inhabit they're due, so just to put 1595 01:20:09.159 --> 01:20:11.640 words in their mouths. Is it not possible that you 1596 01:20:11.920 --> 01:20:16.600 are simply giving their arguments, like Darryl's, Horton's, et cetera, 1597 01:20:16.800 --> 01:20:19.119 the least charitable read And if not, why not? 1598 01:20:20.479 --> 01:20:23.920 It's a good question. And I think that I think 1599 01:20:23.960 --> 01:20:29.359 that there comes a point where volume is substantive in 1600 01:20:29.399 --> 01:20:32.199 and of itself. So if you know, if you're going 1601 01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:36.079 to look at a claim in isolation, right as an example, 1602 01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:39.800 you know, we were referring to Horton's reference to this 1603 01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.760 revenita not being a genocide or genocide, denialism or minimalism, whatever, 1604 01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:46.439 whatever you want to label it, and you look at 1605 01:20:46.439 --> 01:20:49.000 that in isolation, and he would to present a series 1606 01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:51.239 of points and say, well, you know, here's why the 1607 01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:54.079 tribunals were wrong and all of that stuff. And you 1608 01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:56.279 can say, well, you know, I think he's a little 1609 01:20:56.319 --> 01:20:58.680 bit off of his rocker here, but it's kind of 1610 01:20:58.680 --> 01:21:02.279 a claim in isolation. But when you look at these 1611 01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:06.520 series in the case of Cooper or books in the 1612 01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:10.720 case of Horton, and you see these claims that are 1613 01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:17.840 just again frankly, just revisionist, contrarian claims that really fly 1614 01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:22.520 in the face of the well established evidentiary record all 1615 01:21:22.560 --> 01:21:26.640 of the serious historians agree on. Again, you have to 1616 01:21:26.680 --> 01:21:30.399 ask the question, why is this a trend, Where is 1617 01:21:30.399 --> 01:21:33.880 this coming from? What is the motivation? Is it really 1618 01:21:33.960 --> 01:21:36.960 that they believe that the evidence points in the contrary 1619 01:21:37.760 --> 01:21:42.079 or in a contrary direction, or is the starting is 1620 01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:45.079 the starting place for the Hortons and the Coopers of 1621 01:21:45.119 --> 01:21:51.119 the world. The West is actually the bad guy, you know, imperialism, 1622 01:21:51.159 --> 01:21:55.439 Western imperialism is the original sin, and it's from there 1623 01:21:55.760 --> 01:21:58.760 that the narrative is then told. Right, And I think 1624 01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:01.159 that there's a case to be made if you actually 1625 01:22:01.159 --> 01:22:03.479 really pay attention to these series or these books, and 1626 01:22:03.520 --> 01:22:05.399 you read them, and you look at the sources, and 1627 01:22:05.439 --> 01:22:08.079 you do the research like you and I do, I 1628 01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:10.520 think that there's a case to be made that that 1629 01:22:10.640 --> 01:22:13.479 might be the starting point here, and then the rest 1630 01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:16.000 is just a logical conclusion that naturally follows. 1631 01:22:16.760 --> 01:22:20.720 Okay, Yeah, that seems like a decent enough explanation, I 1632 01:22:20.720 --> 01:22:23.880 would say. And I guess then at that point, if 1633 01:22:23.920 --> 01:22:27.159 someone isn't convinced by that, that that's fine because they they're. 1634 01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:28.119 Interpreting it differently. 1635 01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:31.039 I mean, you or I can disagree with that, but 1636 01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:33.479 I mean, I think that's a fair assessment on your part, 1637 01:22:33.520 --> 01:22:36.039 And now this might be a little less fair for 1638 01:22:36.159 --> 01:22:39.600 us to do or for you to do. I'm outsourcing 1639 01:22:39.640 --> 01:22:43.199 this for you with my questions here, but I actually 1640 01:22:43.239 --> 01:22:46.479 wrote this down. I called this a neo Buchananite universe. 1641 01:22:46.479 --> 01:22:48.520 It seems to orbit around Tucker Carlson. That's what I 1642 01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:51.199 like to sort of characterize this as. But I guess 1643 01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:54.439 what I'm wondering here is what is the motivation? What 1644 01:22:54.479 --> 01:22:57.520 are we talking about here? Like, to what extent do 1645 01:22:57.520 --> 01:23:00.680 you think that these projects are informed by sincere ideological 1646 01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:04.079 priors or do you think it's calculated and part of 1647 01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:09.920 a far greater far right agit prop activist kind of project, 1648 01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:12.880 or do you think it's just conspiracy theory, brain mental illness. 1649 01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:16.159 I mean, I guess those are all possibilities in a 1650 01:23:16.159 --> 01:23:18.680 lot of cases. But I guess really what those questions 1651 01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:22.760 are leading to is a bigger question of what, like, ultimately, 1652 01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:26.720 what end does this all serve? What does this unofficial 1653 01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:29.399 crew of people hope to eventually achieve with all this, 1654 01:23:29.399 --> 01:23:30.960 Because I don't think it's money, at least not in 1655 01:23:31.000 --> 01:23:33.479 the case of Tucker Carlson. You know, air to the 1656 01:23:33.520 --> 01:23:38.359 Swanson fortune and multimillionaire many times over from his independent 1657 01:23:38.439 --> 01:23:40.560 work and work with Fox. I mean, so I don't 1658 01:23:40.560 --> 01:23:43.439 think it's money. So I guess what I'm hoping for 1659 01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:47.640 with all the possibility throughout there is could you maybe 1660 01:23:47.720 --> 01:23:50.960 give a Steelman perspective on their efforts and then contrast 1661 01:23:51.039 --> 01:23:53.840 that with maybe the least charitable interpretation, and then sort 1662 01:23:53.880 --> 01:23:56.800 of way which one you see as the most likely. 1663 01:23:57.520 --> 01:24:00.880 I mean, that's the million dollar question. I think. I 1664 01:24:00.920 --> 01:24:04.199 think that's the really big question behind a lot of 1665 01:24:04.199 --> 01:24:06.960 the claims that are made. And this really isn't just 1666 01:24:07.239 --> 01:24:10.640 a Horton or Cooper question. I think it's a broader 1667 01:24:10.800 --> 01:24:15.279 question when it comes to, you know, pop history revisionist claims. 1668 01:24:16.920 --> 01:24:20.520 And I speak to this in episode zero a little bit. 1669 01:24:20.560 --> 01:24:24.359 And I think that the motivations vary. Frankly, I think that, 1670 01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:28.319 as you said, some people are probably motivated by clicks 1671 01:24:28.720 --> 01:24:32.720 and eyeballs and ears and making a name for themselves 1672 01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:34.760 because at the end of the day, you know, to 1673 01:24:34.840 --> 01:24:37.520 keep the dopamine hit going, you need to keep ratching 1674 01:24:37.600 --> 01:24:41.359 up the craziness and the claims, and that typically means, 1675 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:46.680 in the context of our conversation, more a historicity, more 1676 01:24:46.720 --> 01:24:51.479 outlandish claims to really keep that audience flywheel going. So 1677 01:24:51.560 --> 01:24:55.960 one could certainly be financial, absolutely. I think another could 1678 01:24:56.039 --> 01:25:01.479 be that maybe people, as I said, want to shift 1679 01:25:01.720 --> 01:25:06.000 and win hearts and minds, and obviously there's a financial 1680 01:25:06.039 --> 01:25:08.039 overlap to that if you're able to build and retain 1681 01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:11.000 an audience. But I think that if you're really looking 1682 01:25:11.039 --> 01:25:14.359 at the present day and you're looking at these geopolitical 1683 01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:19.640 flash points, the Ukrainees, the Israels, the Taiwan's of the world, 1684 01:25:19.640 --> 01:25:23.439 I guess as of today Venezuela as well, we're recording 1685 01:25:23.439 --> 01:25:28.359 this on January third, So I think that I think 1686 01:25:28.399 --> 01:25:31.960 that if you can shift people's opinions on the past 1687 01:25:32.640 --> 01:25:35.960 and you know, in the case of Ukraine, portray Russia 1688 01:25:36.560 --> 01:25:39.680 as aggrieved in the case of you know, Israel Palestine, 1689 01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:43.239 make that conflict seem very one sided in terms of 1690 01:25:43.359 --> 01:25:46.520 who the aggrieved party is. In the case of Taiwan, 1691 01:25:46.600 --> 01:25:50.920 you know, talk about one China, one China policy, et cetera. Right, 1692 01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:55.720 you can basically justify actions that are taken in the 1693 01:25:55.760 --> 01:25:58.920 present or in the future as it relates to those 1694 01:26:00.039 --> 01:26:04.800 flash points, and then you can impact policy by convincing 1695 01:26:04.880 --> 01:26:10.119 people to vote for individuals who believe the same things 1696 01:26:10.119 --> 01:26:12.520 that you do as it relates to foreign policy or 1697 01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:15.119 geopolitical flashpoints, if you can kind of shift and move 1698 01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:17.560 the needle on what the history is. And so I 1699 01:26:17.560 --> 01:26:20.079 think that's part of it too. And the third part 1700 01:26:20.119 --> 01:26:25.439 that I speak to is there is absolutely a bad 1701 01:26:25.479 --> 01:26:29.279 actor part to this, right, There are bad actors in 1702 01:26:29.319 --> 01:26:35.479 the world today, nation states or organizations that are adjacent 1703 01:26:35.520 --> 01:26:42.199 to nation states, that have financial resources to support influencers 1704 01:26:42.279 --> 01:26:45.319 or historians. And you know, I don't point fingers at 1705 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:47.039 who this is or who might be doing that, because 1706 01:26:47.079 --> 01:26:49.640 I certainly I don't have any evidence to say that 1707 01:26:49.640 --> 01:26:52.960 that's happening. But I mean last or not last year. Now, 1708 01:26:53.000 --> 01:26:55.800 in twenty twenty four, there was that whole issue with 1709 01:26:55.880 --> 01:26:59.319 Tenant media where the Russians were kind of caught, you know, 1710 01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:02.920 funneling to this influencer network. And so that was one 1711 01:27:02.960 --> 01:27:05.720 instance in which that was caught, right, But think about 1712 01:27:05.720 --> 01:27:09.119 all the instances in which you know that hasn't been caught, right, 1713 01:27:09.159 --> 01:27:12.640 and it certainly is happening elsewhere, and you know, these 1714 01:27:12.760 --> 01:27:17.079 nation state actors or adjacent actors certainly have the means 1715 01:27:17.119 --> 01:27:21.760 to influence thought on a variety of these subjects because 1716 01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:23.560 it's in their geopolitical interest to do so. And I 1717 01:27:23.600 --> 01:27:25.479 think that's certainly a part of it. And there's kind 1718 01:27:25.520 --> 01:27:30.000 of an overlap here between the pop historian influencer worlds 1719 01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:33.239 and those those state actors as well. 1720 01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:35.119 Yeah, and when stuff like that happens, it's I mean, 1721 01:27:35.159 --> 01:27:36.920 as we saw with the Tenet media case. If I 1722 01:27:36.920 --> 01:27:39.199 remember right, it wasn't just this. I mean, it was 1723 01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:41.159 about as direct as it could get, but it's still 1724 01:27:41.399 --> 01:27:44.279 relatively indirect. And most of these influencers didn't even think 1725 01:27:44.279 --> 01:27:45.560 about where the money was coming from. 1726 01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:46.239 They just took it. 1727 01:27:46.439 --> 01:27:49.359 And you know, on that from a human perspective, I 1728 01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:52.039 don't blame them. I mean, if you're being offered, you know, 1729 01:27:52.279 --> 01:27:54.319 five hundred thousand dollars a week, you're not going to 1730 01:27:54.399 --> 01:27:58.520 say no unless you are staking credibility on things, and 1731 01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:00.279 you have to actually really start thinking about that. 1732 01:28:01.000 --> 01:28:03.479 But yeah, that that has entered my mind as well. 1733 01:28:03.520 --> 01:28:04.640 I mean, I and. 1734 01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:07.720 Honestly, all those like possibilities I put out there, you know, 1735 01:28:08.159 --> 01:28:11.039 like I said, outsourcing my argument, you know, they could 1736 01:28:11.039 --> 01:28:12.600 they all can be true at once. 1737 01:28:12.800 --> 01:28:13.760 And I think that's a big thing. 1738 01:28:13.760 --> 01:28:16.199 I mean, like I for example, when I when I 1739 01:28:16.199 --> 01:28:19.560 said mental illness, obviously, I think everybody probably thought the 1740 01:28:19.600 --> 01:28:22.039 same thing. At least you probably did. I'm talking about 1741 01:28:22.039 --> 01:28:27.000 Candice Owens mostly, but that's pretty obvious. But like, she's 1742 01:28:27.039 --> 01:28:30.159 also very much an opportunistic person. She's very much in 1743 01:28:30.439 --> 01:28:32.279 it for the money, in it for the influence. And 1744 01:28:32.920 --> 01:28:35.199 I think that there's just like there is a psychological 1745 01:28:35.239 --> 01:28:38.560 aspect to a cognitive bias aspect. I mean, I this 1746 01:28:38.600 --> 01:28:43.680 doesn't explain the motive, but I've been using this diagnosis 1747 01:28:43.720 --> 01:28:48.000 to describe people like, you know, like those in this 1748 01:28:48.760 --> 01:28:52.800 Neol Buchanan, I Tucker Carlson Orbit for a while. And 1749 01:28:52.840 --> 01:28:56.520 this thing I've been calling a masochistic chauvinism, where at 1750 01:28:56.600 --> 01:29:00.399 least in this case, an American can feel and develop 1751 01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:03.920 a deep, meaningful sense of moral pride about themselves and 1752 01:29:04.119 --> 01:29:06.359 you know, our place in the world by centering the 1753 01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:10.000 United States the same way a typical chauvinus does, but 1754 01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:13.399 by framing us as the worst in the world rather 1755 01:29:13.479 --> 01:29:17.720 than the best. And that recognition basically implies a high minded, 1756 01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:22.720 self critical honesty and sophistication, and therefore heightened ability to 1757 01:29:22.760 --> 01:29:27.319 recognize evil compared to those who look abroad for such forces, 1758 01:29:27.319 --> 01:29:30.079 you know, those those neo cons they might say, they 1759 01:29:30.119 --> 01:29:33.800 are wont to say these days. So yeah, I think 1760 01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:36.119 that there is like it's fulfilling a need. I think 1761 01:29:36.159 --> 01:29:39.199 at a certain level too, that's like the most sincere part. 1762 01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:40.680 Of it, I would wager. I don't know what you 1763 01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:41.239 think about that. 1764 01:29:41.960 --> 01:29:44.079 Well, I think I think, you know, in Canice's case, 1765 01:29:44.319 --> 01:29:46.439 and there's I mean, you see this all over the 1766 01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:49.199 Twitter sphere I get, or the ex sphere I always 1767 01:29:49.399 --> 01:29:50.560 I don't I don't even know what to call it 1768 01:29:50.560 --> 01:29:53.000 these days, honestly, yea, yeah, I mean that's kind of 1769 01:29:53.159 --> 01:29:57.239 just Israel Israel brain right, Like that's just like the 1770 01:29:57.239 --> 01:30:00.199 the Israelis are the Charlie Kirk got shot. You know, 1771 01:30:00.319 --> 01:30:02.760 the Israelis are behind it, right, like Israel's basically you know, 1772 01:30:02.840 --> 01:30:06.399 you you wake up with a hangover, it's it's Israel's fault, 1773 01:30:06.479 --> 01:30:08.560 right Like, that's kind of like a So I think 1774 01:30:08.560 --> 01:30:11.039 it's I think that that's kind of taken to a 1775 01:30:11.079 --> 01:30:16.159 certain extent, that's just totally insane. But I but I 1776 01:30:16.159 --> 01:30:18.520 also think that they're you know, and again I'm not 1777 01:30:18.560 --> 01:30:20.760 saying this is Candice, but I certainly think there are 1778 01:30:20.800 --> 01:30:25.960 some people that are probably working with other folks who 1779 01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:28.960 have a geopolitical incentive to trash talk the Israelis at 1780 01:30:29.000 --> 01:30:32.159 every given turn, right. And you know, again, I don't 1781 01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:33.840 know who those people are. You don't know who those 1782 01:30:33.840 --> 01:30:35.960 people are, but I think just given what we saw 1783 01:30:35.960 --> 01:30:39.439 with the Tenet media issue, there's there's probably there's probably 1784 01:30:39.439 --> 01:30:42.000 more of that happening. And you know, you have certain 1785 01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:44.720 individuals who, you know, you like Tucker as an example, 1786 01:30:44.720 --> 01:30:46.199 who say, you know, I don't want to talk about 1787 01:30:46.199 --> 01:30:48.359 Israel on my podcast, and then every episode it's it's 1788 01:30:48.359 --> 01:30:51.279 basically an Israel episode, right, And so I think it's 1789 01:30:51.359 --> 01:30:54.920 just it's just there's that, there's that there's that critique 1790 01:30:54.920 --> 01:30:58.640 of Israel that is perfectly legitimate, as one would do 1791 01:30:58.720 --> 01:31:01.000 of any nation state if you disagree with policy, or 1792 01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:03.439 disagree with conduct in war, whatever. But then you have 1793 01:31:03.600 --> 01:31:08.159 like this obsessive level aspect to it that some of 1794 01:31:08.239 --> 01:31:12.319 these influencers or podcasters or whatever engage in. And it's 1795 01:31:12.399 --> 01:31:15.159 it's just every single day, day in, day out, and 1796 01:31:15.199 --> 01:31:17.039 you have to ask yourself, you know, like where is 1797 01:31:17.079 --> 01:31:17.800 that coming from? 1798 01:31:18.039 --> 01:31:20.920 And the thing is it's it's also nothing new. I mean, 1799 01:31:20.960 --> 01:31:24.000 we saw you know, I my my concept that I 1800 01:31:24.119 --> 01:31:26.920 just listed of the masochistic chauvinism. I I'm deriving that 1801 01:31:26.960 --> 01:31:30.960 from a Swedish sociologist named Orin Adamson who talked about 1802 01:31:30.960 --> 01:31:33.359 something about six or seven years ago that he called 1803 01:31:33.399 --> 01:31:35.800 masochistic nationalism, where he was talking about it from the 1804 01:31:35.800 --> 01:31:38.760 European perspective in the context of the migrant crisis, where 1805 01:31:39.199 --> 01:31:41.000 I think like the thing that probably set him off 1806 01:31:41.039 --> 01:31:44.239 was when I somebody in the Swedish government said something 1807 01:31:44.319 --> 01:31:45.960 I think it was almost verbatim. It was to the 1808 01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:48.840 effect of there's no such thing as Swedish culture, as 1809 01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:51.640 if that was a point of pride, and and so 1810 01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:54.000 he like really you know, went off on that saying 1811 01:31:54.039 --> 01:31:56.239 like there's this psychological need being met by people who 1812 01:31:56.319 --> 01:31:59.800 say such absurd things. But his point, and he cited 1813 01:32:00.359 --> 01:32:04.199 or well or Well describe this notion and this phenomenon 1814 01:32:04.199 --> 01:32:06.640 that we're talking about. Back during the lead up and 1815 01:32:06.680 --> 01:32:09.560 into the Second World War, when he talked about negative 1816 01:32:09.560 --> 01:32:13.199 and transferred nationalism, he was very keenly aware of how 1817 01:32:13.800 --> 01:32:18.399 there were people who got excited when Germany, you know, 1818 01:32:19.399 --> 01:32:23.239 like struck against Britain's allies because they. 1819 01:32:23.119 --> 01:32:25.239 Didn't like what Britain was doing now. 1820 01:32:25.560 --> 01:32:29.680 In Orwell's case, perhaps some of these people were Soviet sympathizers, 1821 01:32:29.680 --> 01:32:32.319 because most communists and socialists were at that time. I 1822 01:32:32.359 --> 01:32:34.640 don't think everyone was fully aware of what was going 1823 01:32:34.680 --> 01:32:37.000 on yet. But the point is is that I think 1824 01:32:37.039 --> 01:32:40.039 that there is this There is this trend at least 1825 01:32:40.039 --> 01:32:43.279 within Western countries, at least i'll confine it to where 1826 01:32:43.319 --> 01:32:46.479 I know it's within British and American history. There does 1827 01:32:46.520 --> 01:32:48.880 seem to be this idea that we can do no 1828 01:32:49.039 --> 01:32:51.720 right instead of we could do no wrong. And I 1829 01:32:51.720 --> 01:32:54.319 think that that motivates a lot of people because it 1830 01:32:54.399 --> 01:32:57.720 lets them feel good about themselves and allows them to 1831 01:32:58.119 --> 01:33:00.199 make a name for themselves, because it makes them stand 1832 01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:03.760 out and be interesting and unique in comparison to the 1833 01:33:03.800 --> 01:33:07.920 typical you know, nationalists and chauvinists in the in the crowd, 1834 01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:08.640 you know what I mean. 1835 01:33:09.079 --> 01:33:09.560 I do. 1836 01:33:09.680 --> 01:33:11.479 But it's gone to the point there where it's not 1837 01:33:11.600 --> 01:33:16.239 even unique, right, There's just there's this whole ecosystem that's 1838 01:33:16.319 --> 01:33:19.439 kind of orbiting around this stuff. This you know, anti 1839 01:33:19.800 --> 01:33:27.000 anti Western historical revisionism, where the US and the West 1840 01:33:27.079 --> 01:33:30.880 more generally with the capital W is is again the 1841 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:35.520 original sin for all of these geopolitical flash points, and 1842 01:33:35.560 --> 01:33:40.319 it's just well, it's just it's just so it's so boring, now, right, 1843 01:33:40.399 --> 01:33:42.840 you have this, you have this, It's it's day and 1844 01:33:42.920 --> 01:33:45.960 day out, like I said, from Tucker, from Candace, from 1845 01:33:46.039 --> 01:33:49.920 Dave Smith, from Horton, from Cooper, it's just from Meerscheimer 1846 01:33:49.960 --> 01:33:52.600 from Sachs, right like, it's it's just yeah, pinschafter pin 1847 01:33:52.680 --> 01:33:55.439 schafter punch, and you know, Goebbels always said if you're 1848 01:33:55.439 --> 01:33:58.840 Peter Lie, often enough people start to believe it. And 1849 01:33:58.840 --> 01:34:01.359 and there's there's probably now aspect of that to this, 1850 01:34:01.640 --> 01:34:06.399 but it's not even this unique angle anymore. It's just this, 1851 01:34:06.840 --> 01:34:09.920 it's just basically this often repeated trope at this point 1852 01:34:09.960 --> 01:34:13.920 that everybody's jumped on the bandwagon for. And again, I 1853 01:34:13.960 --> 01:34:15.840 think that there's a lot of people that have a 1854 01:34:15.960 --> 01:34:18.840 vested interest in that being the telling of the history. 1855 01:34:19.239 --> 01:34:21.119 Right yeah, I mean, and it's funny you say that 1856 01:34:21.159 --> 01:34:24.039 it's like old at this point. I mean, what like 1857 01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.239 tell to some I mean, you know, coming from someone 1858 01:34:27.479 --> 01:34:30.720 myself who is very exposed to like you know, leftist 1859 01:34:30.760 --> 01:34:32.600 spaces and has a lot of leftist friends, I mean, 1860 01:34:32.640 --> 01:34:35.159 it's really old. I mean I've been hearing these arguments 1861 01:34:35.199 --> 01:34:38.079 for decades at this point. I mean, we brought Chomsky earlier, 1862 01:34:38.079 --> 01:34:40.800 he's kind of him and Howard Zinn and all these 1863 01:34:40.840 --> 01:34:43.600 types that were popular in the seventies making a name 1864 01:34:43.600 --> 01:34:47.880 for themselves then by basically saying West bad like yes, 1865 01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:50.520 that's where all this stuff comes from. It's it's tiresome. 1866 01:34:50.600 --> 01:34:53.119 But I do like to point out though, and I 1867 01:34:53.199 --> 01:34:55.399 and I know you saw because we were talking about 1868 01:34:55.439 --> 01:34:57.800 this at one point, I have been very taken with 1869 01:34:57.840 --> 01:35:02.079 this seemingly what I'm the green Brown alliance that seems 1870 01:35:02.079 --> 01:35:05.960 to be forming, however unofficially, because it really matches the 1871 01:35:05.960 --> 01:35:09.840 sort of tenor and in a way motivation of how 1872 01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:14.000 the Nazis, especially the more esoteric minded ones like Heinrich Himler, 1873 01:35:14.199 --> 01:35:16.720 were so taken with Muslims and with Islam. They were 1874 01:35:16.760 --> 01:35:20.159 orientalists in that regard, and it seems to be this 1875 01:35:20.279 --> 01:35:24.840 kind of thing that comes up with much more radical reactionaries. 1876 01:35:24.880 --> 01:35:27.680 They are searching for something they have nothing left to 1877 01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:30.560 grab onto in their own culture, so they reach abroad 1878 01:35:30.960 --> 01:35:33.800 and look for things that they really find fascinating and 1879 01:35:34.760 --> 01:35:38.920 compelling that also might share their values because they can't 1880 01:35:38.960 --> 01:35:41.319 find any support at home. At least for something so 1881 01:35:41.359 --> 01:35:46.000 regressive as say theocracy, or cutting off people's hands or 1882 01:35:46.960 --> 01:35:49.439 you know, veiling women and keeping them at home, things 1883 01:35:49.520 --> 01:35:49.880 like that. 1884 01:35:50.039 --> 01:35:53.479 You know what I mean, it's a Lawrence of Arabia 1885 01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:57.239 level orientalism when it comes to this sometimes, right, it's 1886 01:35:57.279 --> 01:36:01.560 falling in love with that which you surrounded yourself, which 1887 01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:05.720 which is foreign. Because it goes back to what I 1888 01:36:05.760 --> 01:36:07.960 was saying earlier. You know this, when it comes to 1889 01:36:07.960 --> 01:36:12.920 the influencers and the pop historians, the esoteric being more 1890 01:36:13.039 --> 01:36:16.920 alluring than the mundane. Right, It's about find in the 1891 01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:20.199 case of Lawrence, finding yourself in the desert, right and 1892 01:36:20.239 --> 01:36:23.840 falling in love with what you see there. And I 1893 01:36:23.880 --> 01:36:25.760 think that's I think you hit the nail on the head. 1894 01:36:25.760 --> 01:36:26.880 I think that's a very big part of it. 1895 01:36:26.960 --> 01:36:28.039 Yeah, and we'll see where it goes. 1896 01:36:28.079 --> 01:36:30.640 I mean, I obviously I take a quite a bit 1897 01:36:30.680 --> 01:36:34.760 of delight and you know, calling out this green brown 1898 01:36:34.800 --> 01:36:36.920 alliance as I call it, just because it falls so 1899 01:36:37.039 --> 01:36:39.680 directly in my wheelhouse. And I'm being very opportunistic in 1900 01:36:39.720 --> 01:36:42.279 myself in this particular case. But at the same time, 1901 01:36:42.279 --> 01:36:45.279 I do think it's very it's an interesting psychological phenomenon 1902 01:36:45.319 --> 01:36:47.199 to a certain degree. 1903 01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:50.000 But yeah, I guess I kind. 1904 01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:51.760 Of wanted to, like, before we I wanted to wrap 1905 01:36:51.800 --> 01:36:54.640 this all up where we talk about sort of the 1906 01:36:54.720 --> 01:36:57.119 broad strokes of what you're doing and sort of what 1907 01:36:57.159 --> 01:36:58.920 you and I have talked about, which is, you know, 1908 01:36:58.920 --> 01:37:00.680 and we've touched on a little bit with the idea 1909 01:37:00.680 --> 01:37:04.119 of peer review and fact checking and so forth. I 1910 01:37:04.119 --> 01:37:06.880 guess like this is kind of a leading question because 1911 01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:08.520 I think I know how you feel about it, but 1912 01:37:08.600 --> 01:37:09.920 I think people should hear it. 1913 01:37:10.600 --> 01:37:12.880 How much of a problem is a lack. 1914 01:37:12.680 --> 01:37:15.800 Of peer review in this content creation space when it 1915 01:37:15.840 --> 01:37:18.800 comes to things like history, philosophy, the humanities as you 1916 01:37:18.840 --> 01:37:21.920 called it earlier. To what extent does it depend on 1917 01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:24.239 the field itself, and to what extent does it depend 1918 01:37:24.279 --> 01:37:26.199 on the claims being made as another distinction. 1919 01:37:26.279 --> 01:37:27.880 I was curious if you had any thoughts on. 1920 01:37:28.520 --> 01:37:32.159 It's a good question. I think that I think that 1921 01:37:32.239 --> 01:37:36.439 part of the problem stems from the medium. Right, So 1922 01:37:38.159 --> 01:37:41.119 when somebody publishes a paper, as an example, right, it's 1923 01:37:41.159 --> 01:37:43.479 published in a journal and then peers take a look 1924 01:37:43.520 --> 01:37:47.159 at it, and there are rebuttals or fact checks or corrections, 1925 01:37:47.800 --> 01:37:50.359 And I think that what you see now is I 1926 01:37:50.359 --> 01:37:53.800 mean the average person doesn't read a historical journal, right, 1927 01:37:54.800 --> 01:37:58.359 But when you see how this information is disseminated through 1928 01:37:58.399 --> 01:38:02.640 podcasting apps or through the internet or from whatever, a 1929 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:04.520 lot of people tune in and listen to that stuff. 1930 01:38:04.720 --> 01:38:12.159 And there isn't a There isn't an academic corollary basically 1931 01:38:12.199 --> 01:38:15.199 to the fact check in these different mediums, right, Horton, 1932 01:38:15.239 --> 01:38:17.199 You could say it's a little bit different because he 1933 01:38:17.199 --> 01:38:18.720 writes a book, but you know, in the case of 1934 01:38:18.760 --> 01:38:22.119 Cooper is an example via podcast, there just isn't anything 1935 01:38:22.159 --> 01:38:25.840 analogous to that. It just doesn't exist, right, And yeah, 1936 01:38:25.840 --> 01:38:26.439 I think can't. 1937 01:38:26.279 --> 01:38:28.640 Get someone's live debate, then at that point all you 1938 01:38:28.680 --> 01:38:31.119 can do is really just do another podcast. 1939 01:38:30.640 --> 01:38:33.720 Right, exactly right, And so I think that's that's the 1940 01:38:33.760 --> 01:38:36.199 part of it. So I think that's a big part 1941 01:38:36.239 --> 01:38:38.920 of it. And that's why I'm so I'm so adamant 1942 01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:41.880 about the fact that you have to meet them where 1943 01:38:41.880 --> 01:38:46.239 they're at in a medium that lends itself to digestibility 1944 01:38:46.800 --> 01:38:50.479 from the audience's standpoint. So that's again, you know, long 1945 01:38:50.600 --> 01:38:55.640 form podcast and taking it, breaking it down and providing quotes. 1946 01:38:55.680 --> 01:38:55.840 You know. 1947 01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:57.760 One of the things that I say and I've said 1948 01:38:57.760 --> 01:39:00.520 this on on Twitter, you know, and in some of 1949 01:39:00.520 --> 01:39:04.000 my episodes. I don't want to tell anybody how to 1950 01:39:04.159 --> 01:39:07.199 think about a conflict. I want them to take what 1951 01:39:07.239 --> 01:39:10.920 I have to say, Take what Horton or Cooper or 1952 01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:13.880 any other you know, influence or historian, et cetera, whatever 1953 01:39:13.960 --> 01:39:16.600 label you want to say, Take what I say, take 1954 01:39:16.600 --> 01:39:18.920 what they say, and make up your own mind. I'm 1955 01:39:18.960 --> 01:39:22.560 just giving you information that I think is missing and 1956 01:39:22.640 --> 01:39:26.000 context that should be there that isn't to better inform 1957 01:39:26.119 --> 01:39:28.800 you to make up a decision on how you should 1958 01:39:28.800 --> 01:39:31.079 feel about a conflict. And I think that's what it 1959 01:39:31.119 --> 01:39:34.079 really comes down to. It's just giving people additional context 1960 01:39:34.159 --> 01:39:38.119 and information that should be presented that unfortunately oftentimes isn't. 1961 01:39:38.319 --> 01:39:38.720 Gotcha. 1962 01:39:38.840 --> 01:39:41.439 So in the sense then it's it doesn't really depend 1963 01:39:41.479 --> 01:39:45.439 on the field necessarily. I mean, I guess if you're well, okay, 1964 01:39:45.439 --> 01:39:47.079 maybe it does in the sense that if somebody is 1965 01:39:47.119 --> 01:39:49.399 like making medical claims like that, it might be a 1966 01:39:49.439 --> 01:39:51.920 little more urgent to refute those things. 1967 01:39:52.119 --> 01:39:53.960 Well, I think it's I think it goes back to 1968 01:39:54.000 --> 01:39:57.439 the binary aspect of the of the of the nature 1969 01:39:57.479 --> 01:39:59.600 of what's being done right Like so in the case 1970 01:39:59.640 --> 01:40:03.199 of meta in the surgery is successful, and the patient 1971 01:40:03.359 --> 01:40:06.600 survives or isn't and it fails and maybe they die. 1972 01:40:06.800 --> 01:40:09.720 Right in the case of a civil engineer, the bridge 1973 01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:12.479 is built and it either stands or collapses, and again 1974 01:40:12.560 --> 01:40:15.479 people probably die. But when it comes to this stuff, 1975 01:40:15.560 --> 01:40:18.720 it's much more interpretive, narrative, rich. 1976 01:40:18.720 --> 01:40:19.760 No immediate stakes. 1977 01:40:19.920 --> 01:40:22.039 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 1978 01:40:21.720 --> 01:40:24.159 Well, And I think the thing that I tend to 1979 01:40:24.520 --> 01:40:25.039 it's funny. 1980 01:40:25.079 --> 01:40:28.359 I tend to really butt heads, at least in my 1981 01:40:28.399 --> 01:40:30.279 own head, I should say, because I have never spoken 1982 01:40:30.279 --> 01:40:33.520 to him. But with people like Douglas Murray and people 1983 01:40:33.520 --> 01:40:35.439 who I generally agree with in a lot of things, 1984 01:40:35.680 --> 01:40:39.640 especially in this context, I do take issue when I 1985 01:40:39.680 --> 01:40:43.640 hear them say this stuff is dangerous. And that's more 1986 01:40:43.680 --> 01:40:46.039 because of my own political bias when it comes to 1987 01:40:46.079 --> 01:40:49.520 things like free speech. I mean, I give Murray the 1988 01:40:49.520 --> 01:40:52.079 benefit of being British, so he doesn't appreciate free speech 1989 01:40:52.079 --> 01:40:53.560 in the same way I think as Ey as I 1990 01:40:53.640 --> 01:40:55.319 do as a rock ribbed American. 1991 01:40:55.720 --> 01:40:59.920 But I really do. I have such a strong. 1992 01:40:59.560 --> 01:41:02.560 Aversion into the idea that any kind of speech is 1993 01:41:02.640 --> 01:41:06.000 dangerous unless it's directly telling people to go hurt someone. 1994 01:41:06.039 --> 01:41:08.439 I mean, I follow the Brandon burg standard in that sense, 1995 01:41:09.199 --> 01:41:12.680 and maybe it's to a point of it being absurdly literal, 1996 01:41:12.720 --> 01:41:14.479 but I just I feel like if we're not going 1997 01:41:14.520 --> 01:41:17.960 to be doing that, then we should be just throwing 1998 01:41:18.000 --> 01:41:20.119 in the towel and saying, fine, we don't actually have 1999 01:41:20.479 --> 01:41:22.560 you know, we don't live up to the values that 2000 01:41:22.600 --> 01:41:25.640 are implied, if not outright stated, by the First Amendment. 2001 01:41:25.720 --> 01:41:28.560 Again that's my political bias, but I think what that 2002 01:41:28.880 --> 01:41:31.600 means for me and for people who feel the same 2003 01:41:31.600 --> 01:41:34.399 way as I do, is that we can't just rest 2004 01:41:34.399 --> 01:41:36.920 on our laurels when someone makes a claim that we know, 2005 01:41:37.279 --> 01:41:41.119 or at the very least believe to be untrue. Like 2006 01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:44.119 this kind of gets us into something that I thought 2007 01:41:44.159 --> 01:41:47.000 was really interesting. Another sort of challenge that I never 2008 01:41:47.039 --> 01:41:50.720 really considered was what you're doing with your work seems 2009 01:41:50.720 --> 01:41:53.720 to be refuting something that I always really loved that 2010 01:41:53.800 --> 01:41:56.560 Christopher Hitchins said, where he said that what can be 2011 01:41:56.600 --> 01:41:59.600 asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and that's 2012 01:41:59.600 --> 01:42:02.479 always a this is such a witty bond maw, which 2013 01:42:02.520 --> 01:42:04.840 is like what he's known for even to this day. 2014 01:42:05.399 --> 01:42:08.239 But I also am starting to think that that's very 2015 01:42:08.319 --> 01:42:12.159 rooted in dated twentieth century thinking. And granted he was 2016 01:42:12.199 --> 01:42:15.159 also talking about religion something very specific, but he made 2017 01:42:15.159 --> 01:42:16.039 it sound general. 2018 01:42:16.119 --> 01:42:18.079 So there's that. But but I think. 2019 01:42:17.960 --> 01:42:21.880 Now, especially you know, more than a quarter century in 2020 01:42:23.359 --> 01:42:27.520 to this new century, information has become so democratized and 2021 01:42:27.720 --> 01:42:31.319 stands to become even more individualized as technology improves. I 2022 01:42:31.359 --> 01:42:34.720 just don't think that that viewpoint really works anymore, especially 2023 01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:36.159 if you value. 2024 01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:37.399 Free expression and free speech. 2025 01:42:38.760 --> 01:42:42.880 So it also seems to be a problem for a 2026 01:42:42.920 --> 01:42:46.000 lot of people who find conspiratorial thinking so corrosive as 2027 01:42:46.000 --> 01:42:49.199 I think you and I do. And I think what 2028 01:42:49.199 --> 01:42:51.760 I'm talking about is that there's actual experts being challenged 2029 01:42:51.840 --> 01:42:57.000 or even dismissed, that these these people are not addressing 2030 01:42:57.399 --> 01:43:00.560 the challenges to their expertise because they like they don't 2031 01:43:00.600 --> 01:43:03.159 have to. We kind of talked about this a little 2032 01:43:03.199 --> 01:43:06.960 bit before with we reference Coleman Hughes's conversation with Dave Smith, 2033 01:43:07.039 --> 01:43:09.840 And obviously we're talking about what you've been doing for 2034 01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:12.640 a while now, which I think is what you're doing, 2035 01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:15.600 is you're challenging what has happened, and what's happened, in 2036 01:43:15.640 --> 01:43:18.479 my opinion, is that we are seeing the creation of 2037 01:43:18.680 --> 01:43:22.520 parallel worlds of reality, maybe not even parallel, just multiple 2038 01:43:22.560 --> 01:43:25.720 worlds of reality. The multiverse theory, I guess, but apply 2039 01:43:25.840 --> 01:43:30.079 to information. And I think when we start to speak 2040 01:43:30.119 --> 01:43:35.079 to these contrary viewpoints on the contrarian's terms, that's the 2041 01:43:35.079 --> 01:43:37.960 only thing we can do to bring these two realities 2042 01:43:38.039 --> 01:43:42.199 or these multiple realities back together into one. It's incumbent 2043 01:43:42.279 --> 01:43:44.960 upon the people who are the quote unquote defenders of 2044 01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:48.119 the establishment, or just people who don't agree with the 2045 01:43:48.159 --> 01:43:51.600 anti establishment narratives in particular that are coming out. So 2046 01:43:52.079 --> 01:43:53.760 I guess I'm wondering what you think of that as 2047 01:43:53.800 --> 01:43:55.680 like a sort of methodology for. 2048 01:43:55.800 --> 01:43:57.399 Bringing things together, and. 2049 01:43:59.199 --> 01:44:00.800 Or maybe it's just ask you, is that what you 2050 01:44:00.880 --> 01:44:02.560 think you're doing, and to what extent do you think 2051 01:44:02.560 --> 01:44:04.560 that that's a successful method or do you think there's 2052 01:44:04.600 --> 01:44:07.279 another way that we can do that, And what challenges 2053 01:44:07.359 --> 01:44:11.359 I think do we face as we try to force 2054 01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:12.920 more reality into the conversation. 2055 01:44:13.840 --> 01:44:16.680 Yeah, it's again a very good question. I think that 2056 01:44:17.319 --> 01:44:20.760 you know it's this probably sounds a little bit trite, 2057 01:44:20.800 --> 01:44:24.359 but I think it's it's always easier to destroy than 2058 01:44:24.399 --> 01:44:27.640 to create. And I think when it comes to established 2059 01:44:27.760 --> 01:44:31.560 historical narratives based and evidence as you said, anybody can 2060 01:44:31.560 --> 01:44:34.840 flippantly say anything, right, Churchill was the chief villain of 2061 01:44:34.840 --> 01:44:37.760 World War Two as an example, Right, And then it's 2062 01:44:37.800 --> 01:44:41.640 it's then incumbent on the fact checker to say, well, 2063 01:44:41.680 --> 01:44:45.159 actually you're wrong, and here's all the reasons why, here's 2064 01:44:45.239 --> 01:44:48.840 the sources, here's the evidence that takes. That's a much 2065 01:44:48.880 --> 01:44:53.039 more extensive exercise than just tweeting out Churchill was the 2066 01:44:53.119 --> 01:44:55.439 chief villain of World War Two or saying it or 2067 01:44:55.479 --> 01:44:58.520 you know whatever. And so I think that it's inherently 2068 01:44:58.680 --> 01:45:03.079 the fact checkers or the peer reviewers are always going 2069 01:45:03.119 --> 01:45:05.840 to be behind the eight ball because they are reactive 2070 01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:09.239 to the comments that are being made that are a 2071 01:45:09.239 --> 01:45:12.119 revisionist in nature. So I think that's that's an important 2072 01:45:12.159 --> 01:45:14.960 thing to understand that you're operating from from behind the 2073 01:45:14.960 --> 01:45:18.479 eight ball. Basically from the get go. My objective and 2074 01:45:18.520 --> 01:45:20.880 again this is just me. This is my personal take 2075 01:45:20.920 --> 01:45:23.239 on what I think I'm doing and how I'm approaching it. 2076 01:45:24.079 --> 01:45:28.439 I'm trying to give people ammunition. Right. The best, the 2077 01:45:28.479 --> 01:45:31.720 happiest that I am is when I'm you know, doing 2078 01:45:31.720 --> 01:45:34.640 my thing and during the day I see somebody on 2079 01:45:34.880 --> 01:45:36.880 X that's kind of getting into a back and forth 2080 01:45:36.920 --> 01:45:39.600 with somebody about one of the subjects that I've already covered, 2081 01:45:40.119 --> 01:45:42.960 and they'll say, well, actually, that claim isn't correct. You know, 2082 01:45:43.000 --> 01:45:46.600 you should check out this episode of Crackpot History because 2083 01:45:46.720 --> 01:45:51.680 he actually kind of deconstructs that claim. And so my fundamentally, 2084 01:45:51.920 --> 01:45:55.279 it's it's all about giving people the ammunition both to 2085 01:45:55.319 --> 01:45:58.039 better understand the context that I said, as I said before, 2086 01:45:58.159 --> 01:46:00.199 is missing from a lot of the claims that are 2087 01:46:00.199 --> 01:46:02.720 made in the content that I cover, but also being 2088 01:46:02.800 --> 01:46:06.600 able to kind of use that as as something that 2089 01:46:06.640 --> 01:46:10.680 they can spread themselves as a sword and a shield 2090 01:46:10.760 --> 01:46:12.840 when it comes to confronting these claims directly. 2091 01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:17.119 Yeah, I like that too, because I was going to 2092 01:46:17.479 --> 01:46:22.079 point out that there are there's a lot of objections 2093 01:46:22.079 --> 01:46:25.159 that I've heard people who you know, and to their credit, 2094 01:46:25.239 --> 01:46:27.239 do not get involved in this stuff, are not as 2095 01:46:27.319 --> 01:46:30.520 terminally online as you or I saying like, well, what's 2096 01:46:30.560 --> 01:46:31.119 the point. 2097 01:46:30.880 --> 01:46:32.039 Of debating these people? 2098 01:46:32.119 --> 01:46:35.159 They're crazy or they'll you'll never convince them, or you'll 2099 01:46:35.159 --> 01:46:36.359 never convince their followers. 2100 01:46:36.359 --> 01:46:38.399 And I've gotten to the point where. 2101 01:46:38.199 --> 01:46:40.840 I've I've kind of tried to make a concise rebuttal 2102 01:46:40.840 --> 01:46:43.600 of that where I say it's not about convincing their followers. 2103 01:46:43.640 --> 01:46:46.319 It's not about convincing them because you're never going to 2104 01:46:46.359 --> 01:46:49.640 convince somebody that their belief is wrong. That's anybody who 2105 01:46:50.119 --> 01:46:52.680 thought they were a pugnacious Christopher Hitchins want to be 2106 01:46:52.760 --> 01:46:55.640 anti theist in their early twenties, realized that very quickly 2107 01:46:55.680 --> 01:46:58.239 at Thanksgiving, you know what I mean, like with their 2108 01:46:58.279 --> 01:47:02.840 religious family. But the point being is that what you're 2109 01:47:02.880 --> 01:47:05.079 doing when you're doing when you when you're debunking this 2110 01:47:05.119 --> 01:47:08.239 stuff is giving ammunition to those who are interacting with 2111 01:47:08.239 --> 01:47:10.479 someone in that audience or just putting it out there 2112 01:47:10.520 --> 01:47:13.600 so it's available as a counter narrative for someone to 2113 01:47:13.640 --> 01:47:16.119 pick up and use later. It's it's just about like 2114 01:47:16.199 --> 01:47:20.840 it's about not letting something go unchallenged. And then I 2115 01:47:20.920 --> 01:47:23.800 hear people say, well, there's not there's more people in 2116 01:47:23.840 --> 01:47:26.640 the believing camp than the non believing camp. Well yeah, 2117 01:47:26.640 --> 01:47:29.119 but that that's always been the case. Like it doesn't 2118 01:47:29.239 --> 01:47:32.119 it doesn't matter, Like having the stuff there is what 2119 01:47:32.199 --> 01:47:34.920 matters in and of itself. And again it lives up 2120 01:47:34.960 --> 01:47:36.880 to you know, like what I was saying before about 2121 01:47:36.920 --> 01:47:39.520 the spirit of free expression. I I do think that 2122 01:47:39.560 --> 01:47:43.600 there's something to be said for debating Holocaust deniers if 2123 01:47:43.640 --> 01:47:46.239 you have the ability to do so, if you know enough. 2124 01:47:46.600 --> 01:47:49.119 I don't. I don't agree. 2125 01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:51.079 With you know, Deborah Lipstadt or any of these people 2126 01:47:51.079 --> 01:47:53.000 who say that this shouldn't be adjudicated. 2127 01:47:53.079 --> 01:47:54.319 It should be adjudicated. 2128 01:47:54.600 --> 01:47:56.880 I agree that it probably should not have been adjudicated 2129 01:47:56.920 --> 01:48:00.119 in a courtroom in terms of the principle when she 2130 01:48:00.159 --> 01:48:03.359 went to trial with David Irving. But I'm not unhappy 2131 01:48:03.399 --> 01:48:07.319 that it did, because it roundly and appropriately discredited him 2132 01:48:07.680 --> 01:48:09.880 and revealed him to be the fraud that he was, 2133 01:48:10.399 --> 01:48:12.399 and that in turn revealed him to be, you know 2134 01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:15.720 that he was as a someone motivated by a deep 2135 01:48:15.760 --> 01:48:19.920 seated hatred of Jews, so and love of the Nazis. So, 2136 01:48:20.079 --> 01:48:22.560 I guess what I'm saying is I think just having 2137 01:48:22.600 --> 01:48:24.960 it out there is the end and of itself. It's 2138 01:48:25.000 --> 01:48:29.399 not about convincing already convinced followers, or disabusing people, or 2139 01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:32.279 most condescendingly, deprogramming them. 2140 01:48:32.600 --> 01:48:35.800 You know what I mean From a principled standpoint, I mean, 2141 01:48:35.800 --> 01:48:39.239 that's what I believe, right, I think that. Look, I 2142 01:48:39.720 --> 01:48:42.760 I just hit a thousand subs on YouTube, right, Darryl 2143 01:48:42.800 --> 01:48:47.239 Cooper Scott Horton. I mean, these guys have hundreds of thousands. 2144 01:48:46.840 --> 01:48:48.479 Of following Mine might be millions. 2145 01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:52.840 Yeah, probably right, substack all that stuff, right, millions and 2146 01:48:52.880 --> 01:48:56.520 millions of followers. But from a principled position, I agree 2147 01:48:56.560 --> 01:48:59.319 with you, right, I'm doing this. I don't make money 2148 01:48:59.319 --> 01:49:01.279 doing this. I do this because I think it needs 2149 01:49:01.319 --> 01:49:03.439 to be done by somebody. You know, I have the 2150 01:49:04.279 --> 01:49:07.840 I think, the knowledge, the understanding, the expertise to do it, 2151 01:49:08.279 --> 01:49:10.199 and I think it just needs to exist. 2152 01:49:10.479 --> 01:49:14.279 Yeah, and honestly I might contradict myself a little bit too, 2153 01:49:14.399 --> 01:49:17.680 but I mean it makes me think of, oh, what 2154 01:49:17.760 --> 01:49:20.560 is that Hannah or Rent quote where she said that 2155 01:49:21.880 --> 01:49:25.000 the ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced 2156 01:49:25.119 --> 01:49:28.199 Nazi or dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction 2157 01:49:28.279 --> 01:49:32.399 between fact and fiction no longer exists. I think when 2158 01:49:32.439 --> 01:49:35.199 you take that at face value, you can then see 2159 01:49:35.239 --> 01:49:38.920 that there might be a little higher stakes involved in 2160 01:49:39.079 --> 01:49:43.680 making sure that there is these punctures in the in 2161 01:49:44.159 --> 01:49:47.920 widespread contrarian information that might not hold up to scrutiny, 2162 01:49:48.399 --> 01:49:51.600 because if people don't know what's true, they're just going 2163 01:49:51.680 --> 01:49:53.880 to give up. That's the argument, at least that a 2164 01:49:53.960 --> 01:49:56.000 rent would make and And on the one hand, I 2165 01:49:56.000 --> 01:49:58.760 think that there's I've read enough of funny enough of 2166 01:49:59.119 --> 01:50:03.960 Czechoslovak history, especially during the rule of the Communists after 2167 01:50:03.960 --> 01:50:06.840 the prog Spring, that the idea that they didn't know 2168 01:50:06.880 --> 01:50:08.760 what was true in false is not true. There is 2169 01:50:08.800 --> 01:50:11.600 actually a lot of descent inside there. Not just from 2170 01:50:11.920 --> 01:50:13.960 you know, Charter seventy seven and all those people, but 2171 01:50:14.520 --> 01:50:17.279 but just people were regular people, were fully aware that 2172 01:50:17.279 --> 01:50:19.199 they're being lied to a lot of the time. So 2173 01:50:19.279 --> 01:50:22.359 I think that we shouldn't overrate the individual's capacity to 2174 01:50:22.439 --> 01:50:26.279 smell out bullshit. But at the same time, giving them 2175 01:50:26.319 --> 01:50:28.439 tools to help them smell out that bullshit is a 2176 01:50:28.479 --> 01:50:31.680 net positive for everybody, and it minimizes the amount of 2177 01:50:31.720 --> 01:50:34.119 work they have to do that they might not otherwise do. 2178 01:50:34.439 --> 01:50:38.119 Yes, So you know, I'm not I'm not gonna I'm 2179 01:50:38.119 --> 01:50:40.640 not going to reveal any names here, but I okay, 2180 01:50:40.720 --> 01:50:43.920 I had a couple. I had a couple fairly well 2181 01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:49.840 known influencers that I respect their work, that have fairly 2182 01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:52.560 large followings, that you would probably know by name, that 2183 01:50:52.720 --> 01:50:56.399 reached out to me privately and just said, hey, you know, 2184 01:50:56.520 --> 01:50:59.359 really really respect what you're doing, thank you for saving 2185 01:50:59.399 --> 01:51:02.600 me the hour of needven needing to listen to to 2186 01:51:02.680 --> 01:51:05.279 all that stuff. You really summarized it and kind of 2187 01:51:05.479 --> 01:51:09.680 condensed it and made it more digestible for me, and 2188 01:51:09.760 --> 01:51:13.000 I really appreciated it. And so that's kind of what 2189 01:51:13.079 --> 01:51:16.960 the what the end objective for me is if I 2190 01:51:17.000 --> 01:51:21.720 can take something that is rough around the edges, smooth 2191 01:51:21.760 --> 01:51:27.520 it out, provide additional commentary, historical context and input, and 2192 01:51:28.199 --> 01:51:31.520 provide more color so that the fuller picture is told. 2193 01:51:32.159 --> 01:51:34.479 You know, I'm putting it out into the universe. How 2194 01:51:34.520 --> 01:51:39.399 people use it or react to that or even believe it, 2195 01:51:39.600 --> 01:51:42.079 you know, that's kind of that's kind of up to them. 2196 01:51:42.560 --> 01:51:47.319 Yeah, I yeah, And that does really feel good to 2197 01:51:47.479 --> 01:51:51.880 like be reminded by people, especially people of some prominence, 2198 01:51:51.960 --> 01:51:56.920 that that what you're doing is helpful in that sense too. 2199 01:51:56.960 --> 01:51:59.560 I mean, I've gotten well, I've gotten plenty of a 2200 01:51:59.720 --> 01:52:02.439 feed back on my own work from various perspectives and 2201 01:52:02.520 --> 01:52:03.960 including more critical ones. 2202 01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:05.960 Because of the praise I've given Daryl Cooper in the. 2203 01:52:05.880 --> 01:52:09.239 Past, I started to get the dreaded how could you 2204 01:52:09.359 --> 01:52:13.479 possibly be friends with or recommend this quote unquote neo Nazi, 2205 01:52:13.960 --> 01:52:16.720 which I don't think he is one for the record, 2206 01:52:16.800 --> 01:52:18.960 I just yeah, what I think of him does not 2207 01:52:19.039 --> 01:52:22.039 really matter. The point is is, you know, I've gotten 2208 01:52:22.079 --> 01:52:25.520 a lot of feedback from that and from all of that, 2209 01:52:25.560 --> 01:52:27.920 and I do think that that can be very affirming 2210 01:52:28.079 --> 01:52:30.880 and enlightening a lot of ways too, because it can 2211 01:52:30.920 --> 01:52:35.640 let you believe, let you realize, like like what your 2212 01:52:35.680 --> 01:52:38.880 impact actually is going to be, at least on a 2213 01:52:38.920 --> 01:52:41.880 small scale. And that small scale is usually enough, whether 2214 01:52:41.880 --> 01:52:44.319 it's positive or negative, to make you either keep doing 2215 01:52:44.319 --> 01:52:46.399 what you're doing or maybe change what you're doing a 2216 01:52:46.399 --> 01:52:46.800 little bit. 2217 01:52:47.640 --> 01:52:48.439 Like in my case. 2218 01:52:48.960 --> 01:52:54.600 Yeah, look, I mean, our our footprints are, as I said, 2219 01:52:54.800 --> 01:52:57.119 much smaller compared to some of the folks that we're 2220 01:52:57.479 --> 01:53:02.199 referring to here. So I'm my pro today is if 2221 01:53:02.239 --> 01:53:06.800 I can better inform one person, if I can you know, 2222 01:53:07.560 --> 01:53:11.600 better educate or provide additional context or color for one person, 2223 01:53:12.279 --> 01:53:14.479 then I think that's a job well done, right. I 2224 01:53:14.560 --> 01:53:18.760 just I'm trying to just be appreciative of the fact 2225 01:53:18.880 --> 01:53:22.279 that people listen and people like what I'm putting out 2226 01:53:22.319 --> 01:53:25.159 into the universe. And you know, there's a lot of 2227 01:53:25.199 --> 01:53:27.600 creators out there that don't even have that right. They 2228 01:53:27.600 --> 01:53:30.920 don't have a thousand followers. They don't have, you know, 2229 01:53:31.000 --> 01:53:33.439 as many listens as I have on my podcast apps, 2230 01:53:33.439 --> 01:53:36.359 and everything is contextual. And you know, as I said 2231 01:53:36.359 --> 01:53:39.800 on Twitter when I thanked everybody for the thousand subs, 2232 01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:41.760 I said, brick by brick, And that's really how I 2233 01:53:41.800 --> 01:53:42.319 approach this. 2234 01:53:42.800 --> 01:53:45.520 Yeah, yeah, I mean, and yeah, somebody who's been doing 2235 01:53:45.520 --> 01:53:47.840 this now for going on seven years, I can tell 2236 01:53:47.880 --> 01:53:50.800 you that the only way to look at content creation 2237 01:53:50.880 --> 01:53:53.880 in general is brick by brick. I think that there 2238 01:53:53.880 --> 01:53:58.000 are people who think when someone blows up overnight, that 2239 01:53:58.000 --> 01:54:02.239 that's going to be good, you know, for their product 2240 01:54:02.359 --> 01:54:06.000 or for them. I you know, I have a bridge 2241 01:54:06.039 --> 01:54:07.720 to sell them, you know what I mean. Like, I 2242 01:54:08.039 --> 01:54:11.840 don't think it's good to like to suddenly blow up overnight. 2243 01:54:11.880 --> 01:54:14.840 And I'm not saying anything about anyone in particular, no 2244 01:54:14.920 --> 01:54:16.960 one that we've been talking about for a fair bit 2245 01:54:17.000 --> 01:54:19.520 of this episode. But I'm just saying that that kind 2246 01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:23.479 of thing can warp what you're doing, I guess, is 2247 01:54:23.479 --> 01:54:24.079 what I'm saying. 2248 01:54:24.159 --> 01:54:26.079 It can warp the purpose, It. 2249 01:54:26.000 --> 01:54:28.920 Can mess with the incentives, and I think that's the 2250 01:54:28.920 --> 01:54:32.199 big thing, And it can leave you open and vulnerable 2251 01:54:32.279 --> 01:54:37.199 to people who want to exploit your talents for certain ends. 2252 01:54:37.840 --> 01:54:41.399 And that's all I'll say about that. But because again 2253 01:54:41.439 --> 01:54:43.600 it's you know, it's all speculation, and I don't want 2254 01:54:43.600 --> 01:54:46.560 to be called it to famer. So anyway, I think 2255 01:54:46.640 --> 01:54:49.520 the sort of big question I had for you that 2256 01:54:49.600 --> 01:54:51.880 actually was the one I was the very first one 2257 01:54:51.920 --> 01:54:53.760 I thought of. But I was like, there needs to 2258 01:54:53.760 --> 01:54:56.000 be a lot more scaffolding before I ask him this. 2259 01:54:56.920 --> 01:54:59.119 Where do we go from here when it comes to 2260 01:54:59.560 --> 01:55:02.640 making the information space better? And I mean this in 2261 01:55:02.680 --> 01:55:04.840 a more logistical sense because I like what we're saying. 2262 01:55:04.840 --> 01:55:07.800 We're saying a lot of good stuff about the principle 2263 01:55:08.079 --> 01:55:11.680 of peer review of fact checking. I would add that 2264 01:55:12.279 --> 01:55:15.960 even though this is one weakness that actually I mentioned 2265 01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:20.039 my partner Molly, who I've actually had on my show 2266 01:55:20.119 --> 01:55:22.960 multiple times. We do a sub series of my show 2267 01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:26.760 about weird little stories in history. But she and I 2268 01:55:26.800 --> 01:55:30.560 were talking about this and I was saying, well, I 2269 01:55:30.600 --> 01:55:34.279 would love it if crackpod History took my show on, 2270 01:55:34.920 --> 01:55:37.319 you know, looked at what I'm doing, even though he 2271 01:55:37.359 --> 01:55:39.520 and I align on a lot of stuff, and you know, 2272 01:55:39.800 --> 01:55:42.159 you know, I think he's doing good work. You know, 2273 01:55:42.359 --> 01:55:44.479 real peer review is on people you like as well 2274 01:55:44.520 --> 01:55:46.960 as you don't like. But then she made a really 2275 01:55:46.960 --> 01:55:51.439 good point, and this is to me a fair point, 2276 01:55:51.520 --> 01:55:54.479 and this might speak to the problem with the medium. 2277 01:55:54.479 --> 01:55:56.880 As you were saying before, that's not content. 2278 01:55:56.960 --> 01:56:01.640 People like. People don't want to hear you critique. 2279 01:56:01.159 --> 01:56:04.159 Something that you might think is good. Now I'm being 2280 01:56:04.159 --> 01:56:06.199 presumptuous by saying you think my work is good. I'm 2281 01:56:06.199 --> 01:56:08.279 just making the point that because I'm having you on 2282 01:56:08.359 --> 01:56:11.680 my show, we're obviously compasetic to a degree. 2283 01:56:11.680 --> 01:56:12.439 But I'm just saying the. 2284 01:56:14.720 --> 01:56:17.760 Idea of like you reviewing stuff that you think more 2285 01:56:17.840 --> 01:56:21.520 positively of than negatively of. People don't really like that 2286 01:56:21.680 --> 01:56:25.760 as far as content goes. They want drama. As you said, 2287 01:56:25.359 --> 01:56:29.680 the world turns an Internet drama. That's where I think 2288 01:56:29.720 --> 01:56:34.119 that there is an issue that I can't possibly imagine 2289 01:56:34.159 --> 01:56:37.680 how we overcome it, because the thing about the Internet 2290 01:56:37.840 --> 01:56:39.760 is you got to give the people what they want 2291 01:56:39.800 --> 01:56:42.479 to a certain degree, otherwise they'll find it somewhere else. 2292 01:56:43.319 --> 01:56:45.640 So how do we get over or let me first 2293 01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:47.680 ask do you agree with that way of looking at 2294 01:56:47.680 --> 01:56:50.239 things or disagree with it? 2295 01:56:50.399 --> 01:56:52.960 Or and or how do you think we overcome something 2296 01:56:53.039 --> 01:56:53.359 like that? 2297 01:56:53.760 --> 01:56:55.760 I think it's a good again, I keep saying, all 2298 01:56:55.800 --> 01:56:58.800 these questions are good questions. I'm blowing too much sunshine 2299 01:56:58.840 --> 01:57:03.079 and rainbows your ways an interviewer here, It's no, it's 2300 01:57:03.119 --> 01:57:07.439 a fair point, right. But I think that when I 2301 01:57:07.560 --> 01:57:14.199 look at who I'm covering, I think about maximizing impact, right, 2302 01:57:14.319 --> 01:57:18.199 And so typically that's folks that have big followings, make 2303 01:57:18.399 --> 01:57:22.560 very big and outlandish claims and trying to confront them 2304 01:57:22.840 --> 01:57:26.920 directly because I know that the larger the following, the 2305 01:57:27.000 --> 01:57:30.399 larger the potential impact. Right. And there is and you 2306 01:57:30.439 --> 01:57:33.399 said this yourself, there is a drama aspect to this, right, 2307 01:57:33.439 --> 01:57:38.640 People like people like drama. And the reality is that, 2308 01:57:38.880 --> 01:57:40.920 you know, if you're fact checking somebody, even if it's 2309 01:57:40.960 --> 01:57:42.960 a little bit more academic, which I think I would 2310 01:57:43.039 --> 01:57:46.439 consider some of my stuff to be, the reality is 2311 01:57:46.520 --> 01:57:50.920 that you're confronting them and that gets people going. Right. 2312 01:57:50.960 --> 01:57:53.039 They kind of like it. They like the history, but 2313 01:57:53.039 --> 01:57:56.039 they also like the fact that you're confronting somebody that 2314 01:57:56.079 --> 01:57:59.079 they take issue with because of the historical claims that 2315 01:57:59.119 --> 01:58:02.680 they're making. And I think that those two pieces when combined, 2316 01:58:03.800 --> 01:58:08.640 not making it, you know, podcast brow slop level content, 2317 01:58:08.840 --> 01:58:11.960 really making it about the history and doing the history 2318 01:58:11.960 --> 01:58:15.159 and doing the legwork to tell good history, combining that 2319 01:58:15.359 --> 01:58:18.600 with the drama aspect. I think that that is a 2320 01:58:18.640 --> 01:58:21.039 powerful combination, frankly, and I think it's a bit it's 2321 01:58:21.159 --> 01:58:22.760 it's you know, maybe I'm giving away too much of 2322 01:58:22.760 --> 01:58:24.960 the secret sauce here, but I think that's part of 2323 01:58:25.000 --> 01:58:26.640 the reason that. You know, when I speak to people 2324 01:58:26.680 --> 01:58:29.039 and they say, hey, I really like the show, that's 2325 01:58:29.199 --> 01:58:30.920 that's part of the reason that I hear. And then 2326 01:58:31.119 --> 01:58:33.279 the broader question that you highlight is to you know, 2327 01:58:33.279 --> 01:58:36.840 where we go from here. Again, you know, maybe this 2328 01:58:36.880 --> 01:58:40.079 would be to my own disadvantage, but I think that 2329 01:58:40.720 --> 01:58:45.199 I've seen a little bit more of my type of content, 2330 01:58:45.279 --> 01:58:49.319 not the same, not identical, different format, different substantively in 2331 01:58:49.359 --> 01:58:51.520 terms of how it's presented. But I've seen a little 2332 01:58:51.560 --> 01:58:56.359 bit more of it since I've spoken to some of 2333 01:58:56.399 --> 01:58:58.920 the noteworthier folks that have reached out to me, and 2334 01:58:58.960 --> 01:59:02.840 they've kind of taken a slightly different approach to their model, 2335 01:59:03.279 --> 01:59:06.239 but also adopted it into some of their content or 2336 01:59:06.279 --> 01:59:09.399 some of the shows that they've launched or recently announced. 2337 01:59:09.920 --> 01:59:12.119 And so I think that that's great, right, Like I'm 2338 01:59:12.119 --> 01:59:15.079 not I'm not doing this for ego. Right, So the 2339 01:59:15.079 --> 01:59:18.920 more the more that I see these claims being confronted 2340 01:59:19.199 --> 01:59:22.439 or addressed or you know, as as I like to say, 2341 01:59:22.439 --> 01:59:25.399 as I said before, more context being provided where it's needed. 2342 01:59:26.079 --> 01:59:29.600 I think that's a net positive thing, right. I think 2343 01:59:29.640 --> 01:59:32.800 that people want to hear good history, and when they 2344 01:59:33.000 --> 01:59:35.199 there's there's a segment of people, as you as you 2345 01:59:35.199 --> 01:59:38.359 said earlier, that hear this stuff and believe it and 2346 01:59:38.399 --> 01:59:40.039 love it, and there's a segment of people that hear 2347 01:59:40.079 --> 01:59:43.439 this stuff and think this is ridiculous. I wish somebody 2348 01:59:43.439 --> 01:59:45.840 would confront this. And so I think it's a volume 2349 01:59:45.920 --> 01:59:49.600 game because as I said before, this is the new thing. 2350 01:59:49.680 --> 01:59:52.920 There's so many people doing this anti West, anti US, 2351 01:59:52.960 --> 01:59:57.640 you know, Western imperialism is the original sin. Volume is 2352 01:59:57.680 --> 02:00:01.000 a quality in and of itself. And I'm one person, 2353 02:00:01.239 --> 02:00:04.640 I'm one show. I have a certain threshold in terms 2354 02:00:04.680 --> 02:00:08.159 of capacity, so you know, I welcome other people doing 2355 02:00:08.159 --> 02:00:09.960 the same thing in their own way. 2356 02:00:10.239 --> 02:00:12.479 Yeah, And and that's sort of what I was like thinking, 2357 02:00:12.520 --> 02:00:15.119 because obviously, like a more systemic approach is a more 2358 02:00:15.119 --> 02:00:17.159 effective approach when it comes to things like this. 2359 02:00:17.880 --> 02:00:21.600 But obviously I would not want the state to have 2360 02:00:21.760 --> 02:00:22.840 anything to do with this. 2361 02:00:22.920 --> 02:00:25.880 I mean, I think, you know, that misses the point entirely, 2362 02:00:25.920 --> 02:00:27.960 and it's probably even more dangerous as I think we 2363 02:00:28.039 --> 02:00:31.119 kind of learned during COVID in various ways that the 2364 02:00:31.199 --> 02:00:34.000 state should just not be involved in certain things when 2365 02:00:34.039 --> 02:00:36.479 it comes to how information spreads. 2366 02:00:36.520 --> 02:00:39.319 I mean, again again that's more of my political slant. 2367 02:00:39.319 --> 02:00:41.720 That's my that's my again rock ribbed American view is 2368 02:00:41.760 --> 02:00:45.039 that we shouldn't be you know, outsourcing our you know, 2369 02:00:45.159 --> 02:00:49.199 credibility to state bodies. So and you know, Hollywood has 2370 02:00:49.199 --> 02:00:52.399 been doing it for decades now, you know, to various 2371 02:00:52.439 --> 02:00:56.000 degrees of success. But self policing, you know, of content 2372 02:00:56.239 --> 02:00:58.079 is really I think the best way to do it. 2373 02:00:58.119 --> 02:01:01.960 And I think if more people are adopting an approach 2374 02:01:02.039 --> 02:01:04.880 that you're helping pioneer, that's good enough for me. I 2375 02:01:04.880 --> 02:01:07.800 mean I've always thought like, okay, well there's there could 2376 02:01:07.840 --> 02:01:11.800 always be like something that people submit their own like 2377 02:01:11.840 --> 02:01:14.600 creators submit their own work to not before they release it. 2378 02:01:14.640 --> 02:01:17.680 They can release it, but then they essentially say, hey, 2379 02:01:17.800 --> 02:01:22.159 I'm also making this podcast episode I'm doing eligible for 2380 02:01:22.279 --> 02:01:25.840 review on the just call it the Crackpot History review Board. 2381 02:01:25.880 --> 02:01:29.560 I don't know, but something along those lines where people 2382 02:01:29.640 --> 02:01:33.159 can like basically show that they are willing to have 2383 02:01:33.239 --> 02:01:36.239 their work checked and that and of itself could be 2384 02:01:36.319 --> 02:01:40.399 a way to, you know, at least foster some sense 2385 02:01:40.399 --> 02:01:43.159 of credibility. Now, that could also become very easily corrupted, 2386 02:01:43.159 --> 02:01:46.880 like anything does, especially when it involves self policing. But 2387 02:01:47.000 --> 02:01:50.359 I just I feel like things like that are are 2388 02:01:50.439 --> 02:01:53.399 just possible, like little things that can be done to 2389 02:01:53.479 --> 02:01:57.399 help with the credibility. Because that was ultimately what prompted 2390 02:01:57.399 --> 02:01:59.640 me at least to put out a very lengthy critique 2391 02:01:59.640 --> 02:02:03.560 of Dare Girl's initial appearance on Tucker and his follow 2392 02:02:03.640 --> 02:02:06.359 up responses for Mary and West. And it was a 2393 02:02:06.479 --> 02:02:08.680 long essay. I wrote it in the span of about 2394 02:02:08.720 --> 02:02:10.920 forty eight hours. I wrote it very quickly, but it 2395 02:02:10.960 --> 02:02:14.079 was long and very detailed, and it's probably what I'm 2396 02:02:14.119 --> 02:02:16.840 most proud of that I've ever written, because it was 2397 02:02:16.920 --> 02:02:20.159 going through the receipts, so to speak, and it allowed 2398 02:02:20.159 --> 02:02:24.520 me to, in my mind, maintain my own credibility to say, hey, 2399 02:02:25.359 --> 02:02:28.720 I do recommend this guy. I do like this guy, 2400 02:02:28.800 --> 02:02:34.079 but I think he is flagrantly wrong on this particular issue. 2401 02:02:34.119 --> 02:02:36.680 And I've intensified that criticism a fair bit over the 2402 02:02:36.760 --> 02:02:39.840 last year or so. But I really do think that 2403 02:02:40.960 --> 02:02:43.760 maintaining credibility is something that I think is very important 2404 02:02:43.760 --> 02:02:48.399 for individual creators because of the splash damage other creators 2405 02:02:48.439 --> 02:02:49.039 can create. 2406 02:02:49.399 --> 02:02:54.159 Well, you use the phrase crackpot history review boards. So 2407 02:02:54.199 --> 02:02:56.640 if you can clone me or get me a team 2408 02:02:56.680 --> 02:03:00.279 to do my editing for me, maybe one day. But 2409 02:03:00.399 --> 02:03:04.119 my pipeline is absolutely full. But I love the idea. 2410 02:03:04.600 --> 02:03:08.399 Yeah, no, and and that's something that I honestly just. 2411 02:03:08.319 --> 02:03:10.439 Came up with the idea. Now, so you can trademarket though, 2412 02:03:10.439 --> 02:03:12.880 if you want to give you permission. But I think 2413 02:03:13.159 --> 02:03:14.840 unless you have anything else you want to add, I 2414 02:03:14.840 --> 02:03:15.319 think that's. 2415 02:03:15.199 --> 02:03:17.640 Really all we have. I do think that we have. 2416 02:03:18.279 --> 02:03:21.800 We've covered a lot of good ground here. I've made 2417 02:03:22.159 --> 02:03:28.520 enough implications so my soul feels satisfied. So but yeah, 2418 02:03:28.560 --> 02:03:30.279 you have anything else you want to add to what 2419 02:03:30.319 --> 02:03:33.920 we've been discussing and also direct people to where your 2420 02:03:33.960 --> 02:03:37.319 stuff is, where your where your Twitter presence is all 2421 02:03:37.319 --> 02:03:37.960 that good stuff. 2422 02:03:38.399 --> 02:03:40.520 Sure, well, yeah, thanks so much for having me. This 2423 02:03:40.560 --> 02:03:42.600 has been a great conversation. If you want to find 2424 02:03:42.600 --> 02:03:46.800 me online, you can find me on Twitter x crackpot 2425 02:03:46.920 --> 02:03:49.720 hissed his t or just search for Crackpot History, I 2426 02:03:49.720 --> 02:03:53.199 should come up and the series are available on my 2427 02:03:53.319 --> 02:03:57.119 YouTube channel or wherever else you listen to your podcast Spotify, 2428 02:03:57.159 --> 02:03:59.560 Apple Podcasts or anywhere else as well. 2429 02:04:00.159 --> 02:04:02.600 Thank you again so much, man, it was good talking 2430 02:04:02.640 --> 02:04:02.840 to you. 2431 02:04:03.119 --> 02:04:07.159 Yeah, thanks again for having me. If you get away 2432 02:04:07.319 --> 02:04:13.119 with it, go get away with it. Why you can't 2433 02:04:13.199 --> 02:04:13.800 shut up? 2434 02:04:14.239 --> 02:04:14.560 Shoot? 2435 02:04:14.600 --> 02:04:23.079 The modest, militant monatier and then may. 2436 02:04:26.199 --> 02:04:30.319 Should all of them want you to follow them to 2437 02:04:30.399 --> 02:04:35.239 the promised Land, Promised land. 2438 02:04:37.239 --> 02:04:45.640 But do you know what the biggest rob problem is. Shoot? 2439 02:04:45.680 --> 02:05:10.880 The problem is hellbody, nobody enough, not even bod e En. 2440 02:05:12.000 --> 02:05:16.840 We all made our believe. 2441 02:05:18.039 --> 02:05:18.479 Some of. 2442 02:05:20.039 --> 02:05:21.000 Some true. 2443 02:05:21.920 --> 02:05:27.399 None of them belong to you. So if you pa 2444 02:05:28.840 --> 02:05:35.079 yourself in a long play, Shoot, I thank him about. 2445 02:05:42.119 --> 02:05:44.800 Well, so there we have it. Thank you again for 2446 02:05:44.960 --> 02:05:49.000 listening to this long conversation that I had with the 2447 02:05:49.079 --> 02:05:52.119 host of Crackpot History, who I basically am just calling 2448 02:05:52.159 --> 02:05:56.920 crackpot History because he does deign to stay anonymous, and 2449 02:05:57.079 --> 02:05:59.000 I gotta respect him for that because it does put 2450 02:05:59.039 --> 02:06:01.760 his work first. But thank you again for listening everybody. 2451 02:06:01.800 --> 02:06:04.880 I hope you did enjoy that conversation, wide ranging as 2452 02:06:04.920 --> 02:06:08.600 it was before we go. I want to give some 2453 02:06:08.640 --> 02:06:11.239 shout outs to the people who have been supporting History 2454 02:06:11.239 --> 02:06:15.479 Impossible at the Comrades and Friends level or above on Patreon, 2455 02:06:16.239 --> 02:06:18.359 as well as the higher levels of support over on 2456 02:06:18.439 --> 02:06:22.319 History Impossible dot Com where they are subscribers. These people 2457 02:06:22.359 --> 02:06:28.199 include Bob Downing, Sam Graham, Greg Hunter, Brian Joy, So, Skip, Achaco, 2458 02:06:28.479 --> 02:06:33.199 Molly Pan, John Pisano, Ana R PJ. Raider, Matthew m Rice, 2459 02:06:33.399 --> 02:06:38.199 Philip Rice, Emily Schmidt, Pierre Vopuni, and as always Fu So. 2460 02:06:38.359 --> 02:06:42.520 Thank you again everybody for supporting History Impossible or just 2461 02:06:42.520 --> 02:06:45.399 for listening. Honestly, if you don't have it in your 2462 02:06:45.439 --> 02:06:47.520 budget to support the show right now, just spreading the 2463 02:06:47.520 --> 02:06:49.960 word about the show is enough to help. But if 2464 02:06:50.000 --> 02:06:51.279 you do have the money, you want to throw my 2465 02:06:51.319 --> 02:06:53.319 way show some love. That way help me deal with 2466 02:06:53.399 --> 02:06:57.960 the ever increasing student debt on accumulating becoming a quote 2467 02:06:58.039 --> 02:07:02.119 unquote real historian, that would help immensely as well. In 2468 02:07:02.159 --> 02:07:04.680 terms of what we have coming up next, well, we 2469 02:07:04.720 --> 02:07:07.399 don't really have anything scheduled yet, but we have some 2470 02:07:07.560 --> 02:07:12.520 things cooking. And please subscribe to Historyimpossible dot com or 2471 02:07:12.560 --> 02:07:16.479 to the History Impossible Patreon at any level to stay 2472 02:07:16.520 --> 02:07:18.600 up to date on what comes next. A lot of 2473 02:07:18.640 --> 02:07:20.840 stuff tends to get written before it gets turned into 2474 02:07:20.840 --> 02:07:23.760 a podcast, but it's also where you get any updates 2475 02:07:23.800 --> 02:07:27.399 that might be coming your way. So yes, thank you 2476 02:07:27.399 --> 02:07:30.039 again for listening, and please stay tuned for the next 2477 02:07:30.079 --> 02:07:32.000 episode of History Impossible.