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No purchase necessary. 22 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:03.799 If we were braveitted by loss he terms and conditions 23 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:04.439 eighteen plus. 24 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.920 You are now listening to true Murder the most shocking 25 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.040 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:25.400 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 27 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:37.239 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:48.439 Good Evening. When the Moon Turns The Blood examines the 31 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:52.480 culture of end Time's paranoia in a trail of mysterious 32 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:56.480 deaths surrounding former beauty queen Lori Vallo and her husband, 33 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:01.840 Gravedigger turns Doomsday novelist Chad Davell. When police in Rexburg, Idaho, 34 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:05.079 perform a wellness check on seven year old JJ Valo 35 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.159 and his sister, sixteen year old Tyleee Ryan, both children 36 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.439 are nowhere to be found. Their mother, Lori Valo, gives 37 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:15.919 a phony explanation, and when officers return the following day 38 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.039 with a search warrant, she too is gone. As the 39 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.599 police begin to close in a larger web of mystery, murder, fanaticism, 40 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:28.280 and deceit begins to unravel. Valo's case is sinuously complex. 41 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:32.520 As investigators prod further, they find the accused black widow 42 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:36.120 has an unusual number of bodies piling up around her. 43 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.159 When the Moon Turns to Blood tells the gripping story 44 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:43.719 of extreme beliefs, snake oil profits, and explores the question 45 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.000 if it feels like the world is ending, how are 46 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:49.919 people supposed to act? The book that we're featuring this 47 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.520 evening is When the Moon Turns to Blood Lori Valo, 48 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.159 Chad Dabell, and A story of murder, Wild faith and 49 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:02.280 End Times with my special guest and author, Leah Saudile. 50 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.960 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 51 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.240 this interview. Leah Satilli, Thanks for having me, Thank you 52 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.319 so much, and congratulations. As I mentioned, on this incredible book. 53 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:15.400 First off, just tell us briefly how you came to 54 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:18.039 want to write this story, and we're in a position 55 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:19.319 to write this book. 56 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:24.400 Sure. So in December twenty nineteen, I started to hear 57 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:27.680 about the case of Lorie Valo and Chad davel. This 58 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.120 was occurring in Idaho. I'm a reporter that spends most 59 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.080 of my time writing about the northwestern United States, and 60 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.439 what really caught my attention beyond the fact that Laurie 61 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:41.840 and her husband Chad were missing and her children were missing, 62 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:44.439 was that someone said that they thought that it might 63 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:48.439 have to do with her strange cult like religious beliefs, 64 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:51.319 that their disappearance maybe could be attributed to some sort 65 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:53.800 of ideology that she held, And that kind of raised 66 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:58.680 my flag because I write predominantly about extremism, political and 67 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.000 religious extremism, and I knew that Laurie Vallo is a 68 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:04.719 member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, 69 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.479 and I had written some about the fringes of the church. 70 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.280 So it seemed like there might be some knowledge that 71 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.240 I had that was familiar to me. And it turned 72 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:16.519 out I was right. There were things about Lorie Vallo's 73 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.079 story and about the things that Chad Davel wrote about 74 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.639 that had come up before in my own reporting. 75 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:24.079 So tell us how you start the book and what 76 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.879 story you tell in the beginning. 77 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.279 So I tell a story in the beginning of how 78 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.879 when I was a young reporter, I worked in the 79 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.360 city of Spokane, Washington, and a really horrific case of 80 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.279 murder happened in our coverage zone involving a little girl 81 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.879 named Shasta Groney. It was a terrifying case that her 82 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.680 family had been murdered and her and her brother were 83 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:50.879 kidnapped and for months, no one knew where they were. 84 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:52.879 And it was a really formative time in my life. 85 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:55.519 I was becoming a reporter. I was learning how to 86 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:57.839 do that job, which so much of it is done 87 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.160 on the job, learning how to do the work of journalism, 88 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.519 and that case really stuck with me because it seemed 89 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:06.720 like they would never be found again. And then in 90 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:10.319 July two thousand and five, Shastergroni was found. She was 91 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.920 found with the killer of her family in a diner 92 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:16.319 in a small North Idaho town, and the story that 93 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.560 unfolded was worse than anyone could imagine. It was just 94 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.279 this horrific case of abuse and you know, mind control 95 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.759 and murder, and it was just more horrible than anyone 96 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:30.000 else could imagine that it would be. And that case 97 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:32.160 really stuck with me. And at the time, I really 98 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:34.839 just didn't have the ability to report on something like that, 99 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:37.240 but I did feel like I needed to know how 100 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:41.120 to report on something terrible because it would inevitably happen again. 101 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.000 And so the case of Lori Vallo and Chad Dabel 102 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.279 very quickly reminded me of that case. In the same 103 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.600 way that there were two missing children, their faces were 104 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.240 being shown everywhere on television. No one had any idea 105 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:56.920 where they were. And it also happened in Idaho, a 106 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.639 very different part of Idaho. So I start the book 107 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:01.959 with that story, kind of giving that background. 108 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:05.040 Now you say that it was many years later and 109 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:08.839 you were working writing about other things when the faces 110 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.920 of two children appeared on your screen. Tell us about 111 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:14.639 this incident, right. 112 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:20.040 So, I know about fifteen years elapsed between when the 113 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:24.480 affair with Shastagrony happened and when the case of Lori 114 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.639 Valo and Chad Dabel came into my life. In that time, 115 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:31.279 I started to specialize writing on far right extremism, and 116 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.600 particularly in the United States West. That work has entailed 117 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:39.879 writing about preppers and survivalists, writing militia groups, anti government groups, 118 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:43.199 sovereign citizens, all kinds of people that make up the 119 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:46.240 very unique ecosystem of the far right in the Western 120 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.160 United States. And in that work I started writing more 121 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.079 about religious extremism, particularly during the COVID nineteen pandemic. There 122 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.879 were different evangelical preachers that I was writing about that 123 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:01.839 were pushing using COVID to push far right ideologies. So 124 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.519 I saw these, you know, in my regular news cycle 125 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:08.160 of read reading the headlines, I saw these two photographs 126 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:10.439 of these two children pop up in my feed and 127 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:14.439 those children were JJ Valo and Tyler Ryan Lori Valo's children, 128 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.120 And I pretty quickly got to work and realized that 129 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:19.959 it was something that was well within my expertise, but 130 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.959 a story that I felt like wasn't being told completely. 131 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:27.360 So in attempting to write that completely, you say that 132 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:31.759 it is vital to understand the workings of the Latter 133 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:34.560 day Saints and what they believe, and the Book of 134 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.360 Revelation is important to understand this story as well, So 135 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:39.120 tell us about. 136 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:42.720 That, sure, what I you know, I grew up in Oregon, 137 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.040 so I grew up in firmly in the Western United 138 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.720 States and have lived my whole life in the Western 139 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.879 United States. And I knew Mormons my whole life. And 140 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.639 when I started writing that extremism, I would hear about 141 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.279 the way that Mormons were characterized, and it was very 142 00:07:57.319 --> 00:07:59.480 different from the people that I knew. You Know, what 143 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:01.399 I came to learn was that I grew up around 144 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:04.199 people who are very mainstream Mormons, but that there is 145 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.040 this extremist fringe of the church that has birthed many 146 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:13.079 splinter sects, many fundamentalist movements that really don't resemble at 147 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:15.879 all what the mainstream Mormon churches. And that's that's what 148 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.879 this book gets into. So I felt like to understand 149 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:23.680 Chad and Laurie's Mormon belief systems, you have to understand 150 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:27.639 mainstream Mormonism. That is a very recent religion, you know, 151 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.360 only about two hundred years old, and it is firmly 152 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.120 grounded in a part of the Bible, the Book of Revelation. 153 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:36.960 The Book of Revelation is a very I mean, it's 154 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:39.600 a fascinating book of the Bible in that you know, 155 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:41.399 I like to say that that if the Book of 156 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.000 Revelation were a modern day movie, it would be directed 157 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:47.799 by Michael Bay. You know, it's got explosions and blood, 158 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:50.799 you know, falling from the sky and oceans turning red 159 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.120 and people's skin melting off. And the Book of Revelation 160 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:57.679 is about the end, the end of days, and the 161 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.080 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints that that 162 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.480 meme Latter Day suggests the end and times. Having said that, 163 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.960 the Mormon religion is very much about talking and thinking 164 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:13.000 about these you know, what could happen, and preparing for 165 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.360 what could be a theoretical end of the world and 166 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.519 living in a wholesome enough way to then be able 167 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:22.480 to go into the celestial Kingdom, which is their belief 168 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:25.279 about heaven, to kind of reduce it down and to 169 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.240 you know, be good citizens and good stewards, and to 170 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.879 have a family that will then follow you into the 171 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:33.639 next life. So that I really get into the Book 172 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.200 of Revelation in the in the book to underso a 173 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.360 reader can understand the foundation of the LDS religion, but 174 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:44.639 also understand how many many millenarian groups, which are otherwise 175 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:48.360 known as cults by the public, how those groups have 176 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.559 also used the Book of Revelation to really scare people 177 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.840 into submission. So I talk a lot about how there 178 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:59.279 have been you know, breakaway LDS sects who have used 179 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:01.320 the Book of Revelation in that way. There have been 180 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.720 you know, Charles Manson, the famous American serial killer who 181 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.360 got people to do his bidding for him, very much 182 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.120 invigorated by the Book of Revelation. So I just want 183 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:14.559 to be really clear that what Laurie Vallo and Chad 184 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:19.720 dabol believe is not mainstream Mormonism. They believe themselves to 185 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:21.679 be a part of the mainstream Mormon Church. But they 186 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:26.159 were entertaining this fringe ideologies that have existed at the 187 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.799 edges of the church for a long time that the 188 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:32.759 mainstream church continually says, do not entertain these ideas, these 189 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.200 are not what we believe. But they very much were 190 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:35.639 doing that. 191 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.399 The book title is when the Moon turns to Blood 192 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.879 tell us its relation this term in the Book of Revelations. 193 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.080 So there are several things that happen in the Book 194 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:51.000 of Revelations. There's sort of this gradual unfolding of everything 195 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:53.720 in the landscape changing in a way that is not 196 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.639 beneficial to humans, that doesn't nurture human life anymore. So, 197 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.960 like I said, before rivers turn from water into blood, 198 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:06.279 the bounty from all the trees that humans need to survive, 199 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:09.600 to eat and to nourish themselves falls away in rots. 200 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.840 And the moon turns to red. It goes red, it 201 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.279 turns to blood. And this was something that the prophet 202 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.159 and founder of the ld S Church, Joseph Smith, he 203 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.120 wrote about in his foundational documents for the church, that 204 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:24.679 the moon turns to blood. The title is also a 205 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:29.960 riff on a very fringe piece of LDS literature called 206 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:32.840 and the Moonshell Turned to Blood, and that is seen 207 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.759 as a very scary book by a lot of people. 208 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.759 It was something that predicted apocalypse, It predicted the fall 209 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.240 of humanity, and it was really kind of the sort 210 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.759 of book that would be found in households maybe in 211 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.639 the seventies and eighties, where people really entertained these fringe 212 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.200 ideas that they were going to be the survivors of 213 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.200 the apocalypse and the one the chosen ones that would 214 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:57.159 weather that storm. 215 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:01.480 What part of explaining that part of theld Yes philosophy 216 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:06.279 with this personal relationship with God and a more special 217 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.960 sort of communication with God. 218 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.360 So one big thing that's very makes you Mormonism very 219 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:17.519 unique and special in a way is that the leaders 220 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:21.519 of the church teach people that you can receive revelation 221 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.480 from God. This, I think is a way of saying 222 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.480 that you will have a very unique and personal relationship 223 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.799 to God. Maybe if you feel like you can talk 224 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.159 to God. I think that's something that could be shared 225 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.720 in many ways by lots of Christians. And what the 226 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:40.720 Eldas Church says is that you may receive revelation from 227 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:44.039 God that feels like very firm direction about maybe what 228 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:46.519 you should do or a problem you're having. But they're 229 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.200 very clear to say, if you receive revelation from God, 230 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.679 go ahead and keep it to yourself. Maybe share it 231 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.679 with your wife, maybe share it with your your you know, 232 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.799 your partner, your children. But that revelation should not walk 233 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:02.720 out the front door, because when it does and you 234 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:06.320 start to say I'm speaking to God, then you're subverting 235 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:10.960 really the hierarchy, hierarchical structure of the LDS Church, because 236 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:14.559 the way it works is that the LDS leadership is 237 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:17.399 like a pyramid. So at the very very top of 238 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:21.039 that pyramid is one man, the President of the LDS Church, 239 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:24.279 and that president is seen as the living, breathing prophet, 240 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.480 the only person within Mormonism that has a direct line 241 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.080 to God and the only person that's allowed to receive 242 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.559 prophecy and revelation for the entire church. So when you 243 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.919 know a man in a small town in Utah starts 244 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:42.919 to say I'm receiving revelation and begins publishing that, as 245 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.960 Chad Dabelt started to do with his books, that is 246 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.159 that is seen as very controversial. It can be even 247 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.919 grounds if it goes too far for excommunication. And this 248 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:56.360 is one very unique aspect of Mormonism. This receiving of 249 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.519 revelation that is makes it a vibrant faith, that makes 250 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:01.960 it a very attractive faith to people, but it also 251 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:04.000 makes it a little bit of a tough thing to 252 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:07.159 keep in the bed because some people believe that they 253 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.320 receive revelation that affects a lot of people. They think 254 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.200 that they see, you know, in this case, that the 255 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.159 world could collapse and they're a receiving direction on how 256 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.000 to weather that. And I talk about in the book 257 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.039 that if you believe you're receiving revelation like that, you 258 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.039 might take a chance and take that out the front 259 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:24.279 door to let other people know. 260 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:27.799 Let's talk about the early life of Chad Dabell and 261 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.879 the influence from his parents and the church itself, Barry 262 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:37.320 Cox and his wife, and talk about his siblings and 263 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:38.480 their life growing up. 264 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.960 Sure, do you want me to talk about Chad Dabell 265 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.120 or Lori Valo because the Coxes are Lori's family. 266 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:47.679 Oh, pardon me, sorry, talk about the day Bell's pardon me? 267 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.440 Sure? So. Chad Daybell grew up in a small town 268 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:53.480 south of Salt Lake City, about forty five minutes away 269 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:58.639 called Springville, Utah. Raised in a very traditional Mormon family, 270 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:02.799 a few brothers and his sister parents who were very religious. 271 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:04.879 You know, his dad at one point was a bishop 272 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:07.679 in their local ward. He grew up, you know, really 273 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:12.000 being a by all means, a very normal Mormon person. 274 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.279 You have to understand, in some of these towns in 275 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:19.639 Utah they are like ninety ninety five percent LDS, so 276 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:23.720 so really Chad Dabel's community was the LDS community, and 277 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.120 you know, he went on to kind of go on 278 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:28.360 the track that a lot of LDS men do. He 279 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.279 went to Brigham Young University in Provo, which is just 280 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.840 a few minutes north of where he grew up. That 281 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:37.879 is the church church run university. He worked at the 282 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.440 student paper there. He went on a mission in New Jersey, 283 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.000 which is a very traditional thing for a Mormon man 284 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:47.559 to do. The church dispatches missionaries all over the world 285 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.039 to sort of spread the gospel of Mormonism, and he 286 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.200 did that. He came back home to Springdale, Utah. He 287 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:56.000 met a woman that also went to his high school 288 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.039 named Tammy. They were married, they were married in a 289 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.679 Mormon temple, and they started to have children. So by 290 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.000 all means, you know, for much of his life. It 291 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.200 was very you know, very typical, very kind of by 292 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.480 the book when it comes to LDS folks, you start 293 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.679 to see a turn at a certain point when Chad 294 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.120 started to write his own fiction, which was a dream 295 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.600 of his. He started to publish fictional books that really 296 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.360 dealt in kind of started to dabble in a little 297 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:24.960 bit more in this fringe, in this sort of scary 298 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:30.039 apocalyptic version of events, and book by book he started 299 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.000 to say, you know, these things that I'm talking about 300 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.840 seem to be happening. And then you know, in the 301 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:37.879 next book he would start to kind of say, I 302 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.240 don't think it's any accident. I think I'm starting to 303 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.720 kind of predict these things. And then of course he 304 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.559 starts to write about his own near death experiences, which 305 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:49.679 is sort of this own subculture that I discovered in 306 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.919 the reporting of this book that's also really controversial in 307 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.320 the church, which is people who believe that they have 308 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:58.279 died and come back to life. And you'll often see 309 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:02.000 within the Ldias Church this authors who say, you know, 310 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.920 I'm bringing back knowledge that we need to know. I 311 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.960 can see beyond the veil, I can speak to our ancestors, 312 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.039 and I can predict what might happen. And again this 313 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:15.200 is very controversial, but despite the controversy, these near death 314 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.839 experience authors sell a lot of books. They're very popular 315 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:23.400 within Mormon circles, and I think Chaddabel saw an opportunity there, 316 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.599 potentially a financial opportunity to start pushing himself as a 317 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.400 near death experienced survivor somebody who could see beyond the 318 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.799 veil and who should be listened to. 319 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:38.599 The LDS has a history of, I would say, people 320 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.720 speaking about the end times, and not very much like 321 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.079 Christians would say this was very urgent talk. Was that 322 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.880 in the incorporation into his novels For Chad Dabel, it's essential. 323 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.599 I don't think Chad Dabel would have been a novelist 324 00:17:55.720 --> 00:18:00.119 about this sort of surmising of what the end times 325 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.079 could look like, what they might, you know, the things 326 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.440 that might occur before they happen. It's something that's been 327 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.720 very difficult for the LDS Church to sort of reconcile 328 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:17.079 because when you've firmly ground your faith in this idea 329 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.519 that the end times could come, that really can scare people. 330 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:25.279 And within the last few years, church leadership, the apostles 331 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.039 of the church have given speeches where they said, look, 332 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:33.960 you should go have children, have grandchildren, get a college education, 333 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.640 buy a house, go you to do the things you 334 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:40.599 want to do. Take your focus off of this idea 335 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:44.519 that doom and gloom are coming for you. And it's 336 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.359 a message that was heard by the majority of the 337 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:51.079 LDS church. But again, this fringe element, the sort of 338 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:55.519 survivalist prepper, near death experience fringe of the church, it's 339 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.920 really an extremists who kind of didn't want to hear it. 340 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:01.839 And that's something that we start to see with Chad's writing, 341 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:05.440 with his starting to get more and more cozy with 342 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:09.119 other near death experience authors, to start going and speaking 343 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:13.400 on the prepper circuit and attending these conferences and hosting 344 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:17.400 podcasts we're talking about what the end times might look like. 345 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:20.200 That really really starts to escalate more and it really 346 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.960 starts to put distance between Chad Dabel's traditional Mormon upbringing 347 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.319 and where he ended up where he is now. 348 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:31.960 You talk about him also being censored and spoken to 349 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.440 by the officials at LDS for some of the things 350 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:39.240 that he writes about, but also tell us about what 351 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:42.359 marriage really entails in LDS. 352 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.440 So marriage is one of the things that is very 353 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:50.200 central to the to the LDS Faith, marriage and marriage 354 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.960 meaning between a man and a woman. The LDS Faith 355 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.200 has a major issue on its hands when it comes 356 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.000 to same sex relationships. It's something that is not seen 357 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:00.480 as appropriate in the church and is really really a 358 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.000 point of controversy right now. So in it's uh, I 359 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.279 believe nineteen ninety five Proclamation to the World on Family, 360 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.599 the Church is very clear that that the family is 361 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.400 the center of the faith. It is the way the 362 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.160 faith continues. It is the way you know, individuals, you know, 363 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.480 you have a family, you have children, that doesn't just 364 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:26.440 end on this this life, that that transcends into the 365 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.200 eternal life, into the celestial kingdom. So family, family is 366 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.480 really everything. And you know, as we see in the 367 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.839 story that I wrote that that was also the center 368 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.559 of Lori Valo's life. Was this sort of continual search 369 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:44.160 for a husband that would that would work, for a 370 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.599 marriage that would work, to have children, and to kind 371 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.160 of you know lead you see sort of a desperation 372 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.880 on both of their parts just to really lead that 373 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:58.359 mainstream Mormon life, and really they both did to an extent, 374 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.599 but I believe it sort of acted as a mask 375 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.799 for their more nefarious intentions and extremist ideologies. 376 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:09.200 Let's talk about Barry Cox and her father and Janice 377 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.799 Connor and the how Lorivallo grew up in. 378 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.680 Her So, Laurie Vallo grew up in a very different 379 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.000 place than Chad day Bell. Whereas he grew up kind 380 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.039 of in the you know, the bread basket, I guess 381 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:23.640 you could say, of the Ildia's Church right there in Utah. 382 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.240 Laurie Vallo grew up in Rialto, California, in the San 383 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:31.480 Bernardino area, very much a California girl, living in a 384 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:36.720 beautiful modern home in a planned kind of country club community. 385 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.519 And she was the daughter of Barry Cox and Janice Connor, 386 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.720 who met when they were young in high school. Barry 387 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.319 Cox was somebody who was seen as a little bit 388 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.039 of a paragon of the community. He ran for city 389 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:53.319 council peace old life insurance policies through a church, Mormon 390 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.880 church owned company, and again they had a vied for 391 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:02.359 the traditional Mormon family. They got married, they had children, 392 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:05.880 He had a good job. Janice the mother, did what 393 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.440 Eldia's mothers are expected to do. She was a nurturer. 394 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:13.200 She'd stayed home and they had they had several children. Uh. 395 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:17.079 Laurie grew up, you know, going to uh she was 396 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.839 a softball player, she became a cheerleader. She was seen 397 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:25.319 as very beautiful, very popular in high school, but also 398 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:26.799 somebody who was really kind. 399 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:27.359 You know. 400 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.160 People told me stories about how she would drive everyone 401 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.039