Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen? What a right? Welcome to the
Speaker 2: Occult Rejects.
Speaker 3: Today's episode, we got a very special guest, somebody I
Speaker 3: was very excited to come on the show to talk
Speaker 3: about Taro.
Speaker 2: You all know I love Taro.
Speaker 3: But before we introduce Natasia Roland, let's introduce the other
Speaker 3: rejects on the show.
Speaker 2: And first we got the loon, Judith. What is going on? Judith?
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 4: I am the loon?
Speaker 5: You could catch me on the loan on YouTube and
Speaker 5: on as a loon on X and I do the
Speaker 5: weekly brunch and once a month to buddy check, and
Speaker 5: I try to focus on self in our self development.
Speaker 3: Awesome, thank you so much. I reallyppreciate you making it today.
Speaker 3: And Jin the Ninja, what is going on?
Speaker 1: Sir?
Speaker 6: How will you? Well? Thank you?
Speaker 7: What's up us? Mister ninety three. I'm really excited to
Speaker 7: be here. I'm not a tarot guy. Just let me
Speaker 7: say that everything I know is newer. Although I've been technically,
Speaker 7: I've been doing it since I was fourteen, Like I've
Speaker 7: had a toath deck for all that time. And you
Speaker 7: know I'm grown in age now so I should know something,
Speaker 7: but I don't really know anything.
Speaker 6: But that's okay.
Speaker 7: But if you're interested in following me, you can follow
Speaker 7: me right now at the show account at Threshold Saints
Speaker 7: both on ig and Twitter. Yes, my personal account is
Speaker 7: just temporarily we're saving a little hiatus, but you can
Speaker 7: also catch us on Threshold Saints at substack dot com
Speaker 7: as well as The True Gray Lodge, of which Matt
Speaker 7: mur is our webmaster and our YouTube coordinator of course,
Speaker 7: so are the True Gray Lodge with a v t
Speaker 7: r VE and you can look at all of our
Speaker 7: episodes with each other and that we do.
Speaker 6: As a group.
Speaker 7: And so we just did a great episode on the
Speaker 7: relatives of apocalypse, so indigenous ways of relating in an
Speaker 7: apocalyptic time, so kind of cool, kind of different for us,
Speaker 7: but I think it went well.
Speaker 6: People said they loved it. So that was our latest
Speaker 6: episode and then I had next week.
Speaker 7: I have Saschke, who is a physicist, a cabalist, a
Speaker 7: rock and roller. Well he says he's a rock star,
Speaker 7: so I'll go with that. But he's kind of like
Speaker 7: he's a magician for the New Aon so he is
Speaker 7: kind of wild and you hear us in conversation for
Speaker 7: like eight hours. I cut it up so it's different episodes,
Speaker 7: but I thought the first part of that will be
Speaker 7: coming up next week.
Speaker 6: So thank you guys so much. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Jan and I wouldn't feel too bad.
Speaker 3: I probably have about four tower decks and I really
Speaker 3: don't know anything about it unless I attribute it to
Speaker 3: the coubalistictory of life, Like that's the only.
Speaker 2: Way it says anything to me. So I get it. Uh, Brandon,
Speaker 2: magis in the media. What is going on? Sir?
Speaker 8: Sup there? Everyone? Thank you for having me on again.
Speaker 1: Nick has always loved coming on being one of the
Speaker 1: rejects of the old cult.
Speaker 8: It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: Nice I am Brandon, right, this is Magas in the media.
Speaker 8: That's where everyone should go to.
Speaker 1: This is actually the ocult rejects Magas and the media
Speaker 1: integrates with it. Please everyone, just go check out all
Speaker 1: the things that I've been doing. It's on YouTube that's
Speaker 1: the biggest channel. And then x is where I get
Speaker 1: to just kind of flippantly talk shit to all the
Speaker 1: non fensical people out there, as well as Instagram to
Speaker 1: drop all my shorts and reels and then TikTok.
Speaker 8: It's a dying app, but we use it anyway, so.
Speaker 1: We as in me breaks down media of all kinds, film, anime, literature,
Speaker 1: comic books, through the esoteric, mythological everything that comes.
Speaker 8: Out of my brain. And I love everyone on here.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk to Natashia, Natsia, Natasia Roland.
Speaker 1: It's going to be a great day. Tarot is amazing,
Speaker 1: so of course let's see.
Speaker 3: Let's do it all right, Thank you very much so
Speaker 3: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: And last but not least, my man Matt Moore, what
Speaker 2: is going on?
Speaker 9: So sub how's it going?
Speaker 8: So very glad to be here.
Speaker 10: Shame you can't join the last two episodes, but always
Speaker 10: nice to hear them as well, the super nice here
Speaker 10: hearing them.
Speaker 9: I'm Metmaura.
Speaker 10: You can always find me as at Metmoora nineteen on
Speaker 10: all socials. That's going to be Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, which
Speaker 10: maybe some Instagram, in some other place like Telegram or whatever.
Speaker 10: You can always find me there. I do enjoy terrat
Speaker 10: very much. I had the seventy two weeks experiment that
Speaker 10: I posted on x. It's also my website, which is
Speaker 10: Kabala dot com k A A B A L A
Speaker 10: h dot com.
Speaker 8: So that's what I like to do.
Speaker 10: I like to use kabala, not the Jewish one, not
Speaker 10: a harmedic one, not against any of those, but just
Speaker 10: people get that on fields out the time. But I
Speaker 10: like to connect that with tark, with astrology, with neurology,
Speaker 10: with other sciences, and it's just so cool. So it's
Speaker 10: awesome to be here talking about it with someone who
Speaker 10: just released pax or it's going to release a Tara deck.
Speaker 6: In the future, so that's going to.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, so I appreciate you making it.
Speaker 3: And finally, Natasia Rowland, thank you very much for making
Speaker 3: it on And yes she has. She's the founder of
Speaker 3: Urania Press. She's an which is an ESO terror publishing
Speaker 3: studio where poetry, myth and divination come together. Natasia is
Speaker 3: a writer and independent researcher with a background in book
Speaker 3: arts and design, and she's been a.
Speaker 2: Tower reader for decades.
Speaker 3: Today we'll be talking about her Emblemata Tarot deck, and
Speaker 3: we'll also touch on a little bit and promote a
Speaker 3: little bit about her Taro Chaimera. That Wiser was so
Speaker 3: nice enough to send me a free copy of even
Speaker 3: though we weren't talking about that today. So, uh, Natasia,
Speaker 3: anything that I left out that you would like to
Speaker 3: promote or plug, please let everybody know where they can
Speaker 3: find you when you're amazing tarot decks and anything else
Speaker 3: you'd like to show people.
Speaker 4: Thank you. It's great to be here and good to
Speaker 4: know you all. Let's see. So, yes, I started did
Speaker 4: Urania Press in twenty twenty, right during the pandemic, and
Speaker 4: since then, I guess it's been what five going on
Speaker 4: six years. I've created nine decks, So some of them
Speaker 4: are you know, like just stayed indie decks with Urania
Speaker 4: Press that I had funded through Kickstarter campaigns and got
Speaker 4: to have you know, like followers that way, and so
Speaker 4: that decks were being promoted, and then you know, like
Speaker 4: each new campaign that I did, I had you know,
Speaker 4: people from before, and so it kind of rolled. And yeah,
Speaker 4: now I've got nine decks out there, and three of
Speaker 4: them have been taken on by the publishers Wiser as
Speaker 4: you mentioned. The first one they put out was my
Speaker 4: Tarot Emblematic, which I my indie deck was called Chromata,
Speaker 4: which was a colorized version of the Claude Paradin devices
Speaker 4: and emblems, and then after that, actually no, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: They did star Loar ar Kana first, which is an
Speaker 4: antique deck of constellations, and then they did the emblemata
Speaker 4: and now February second they're releasing Taro Kaimera, which was
Speaker 4: my first indie deck that I published with Urania Press,
Speaker 4: and that's the noir art of the symbolist artist Odolon Raida.
Speaker 4: And you can find me at Uraniapress dot com. I'm
Speaker 4: on Instagram, Natasia Underscore Roland or Uranya Underscore Press. And
Speaker 4: then I also have a blog, but I don't get
Speaker 4: up to date, so sorry about that. But there's some
Speaker 4: bits and pieces on there, and that's that's a square
Speaker 4: space synthemata ensembola.
Speaker 3: Well make sure if you want after the show, I
Speaker 3: can send you all those links and I'll make sure
Speaker 3: they're in the show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that would be great. Up with the notes in.
Speaker 3: Uh, thank you very much again for coming on. Like
Speaker 3: I ask, I guess every guest that comes on for
Speaker 3: the Occult, which is pretty much all of them, what
Speaker 3: was it?
Speaker 2: I guess? So when was it?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: When did you know like this is what I was
Speaker 3: going to get into? You know, how did you end
Speaker 3: up getting yourself into this, I guess life.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it's kind of an interesting trajectory of
Speaker 4: experience really, because I was sort of what I consider
Speaker 4: heavily steeped in my early twenties and then my thirties
Speaker 4: and forties, I got into motherhood and more sort of
Speaker 4: arts and crafts and kind of like let a lot
Speaker 4: of my earlier interests and obsessions lay low and can't
Speaker 4: really explain why, except for I really did enjoy being
Speaker 4: and I have two daughters. So but yeah, So in
Speaker 4: my early twenties, I find that Odelan Raydon, actually that
Speaker 4: artist inspires me so much because his work that I
Speaker 4: saw when I was in art school in the nineties
Speaker 4: made such an impression on me because it had a
Speaker 4: dark flavor and because it was so spirited and it
Speaker 4: seemed like it was full of the numinous experience, you know.
Speaker 4: And so I found that I was really drawn as
Speaker 4: far as esotericism goes, like the flavors of it came
Speaker 4: out through my interest in art. So like dark art,
Speaker 4: you know, and symbolist artwork in particular, and like the
Speaker 4: even sort of the pre Raphaelites to some extent, just
Speaker 4: because they were hearkening back to you know, myths and
Speaker 4: archaic times and classical times, and so really like what
Speaker 4: embodies to esoteric for me in a lot of ways
Speaker 4: has to do with myth and archetypes and imagery. And
Speaker 4: then obviously, you know, like when you look at say
Speaker 4: symbolist or even pre Raphaelite artwork, there's a sense of
Speaker 4: the magic in that, right, and so it's like, you know,
Speaker 4: the combined of imagery. And then like a lot of
Speaker 4: symbolist artists were also writers, and they were pretty decadent,
Speaker 4: and so I got into that sort of era, the
Speaker 4: symbolest era with art, which I could just you know,
Speaker 4: like even when I studied them a little bit by
Speaker 4: reading some of the books, you know, because I worked
Speaker 4: at the library and art school, like I could tell
Speaker 4: that they were, you know, they weren't like out and
Speaker 4: out saying, they were like, you know, into the esoteric,
Speaker 4: but they were obviously inspired by it. You know. So
Speaker 4: magic and mysticism has always been a part of my life.
Speaker 4: I've always been drawn to it. But as I said, so,
Speaker 4: like in my early twenties, I lived in Ireland for
Speaker 4: three years and I spent a lot of time reading
Speaker 4: tarot and just you know, keeping journals of all my
Speaker 4: taro journeys and spreads. And then I felt the need
Speaker 4: and desire to get into like a master's program to
Speaker 4: express myself a bit more. And I was really into
Speaker 4: book arts and poetry and wanted to combine my interests
Speaker 4: in art and writing. So I moved back to the
Speaker 4: States and did a interdisciplinary kind of degree, and in
Speaker 4: that I was able to combine, yeah, like art and poetry.
Speaker 4: So I did a printmaking studio and then made artist
Speaker 4: books with poetry, and I would say a lot of
Speaker 4: that work had like a mystical flavor. So long story short,
Speaker 4: I feel like I've always been sort of a mystic
Speaker 4: person and into the metaphysical, and a lot of it
Speaker 4: came from poetry and art for me. And then I
Speaker 4: kind of shied away from like some of the real
Speaker 4: you could say, like fan or trends of you know,
Speaker 4: like witchcraft and things like that. But when the whole
Speaker 4: time I was in Ireland, I was doing like hedge
Speaker 4: witch stuff and you know, like little spells and things.
Speaker 8: But I didn't really get.
Speaker 4: Sort of steeped in magic per se until my late forties.
Speaker 4: And so, like I said, in between twenties and late forties,
Speaker 4: I had children, so that took up a lot of
Speaker 4: my life, just kind of making their lives enchanted. And
Speaker 4: I did some craft businesses just kind of make some money.
Speaker 4: And how Taro came about as far as publishing goes,
Speaker 4: was when COVID struck my full time job. I was
Speaker 4: let go, like a lot of people were laid off,
Speaker 4: and I was able to get unemployment, so I was
Speaker 4: supported and I was at home. And I've told this
Speaker 4: story before if anyone's heard any of my interviews. But
Speaker 4: I was looking through an old book where I had
Speaker 4: xerox to a bunch of artwork from my early twenties,
Speaker 4: like when I was working in the library at art school,
Speaker 4: and like just kind of scamping, not all kinds of imagery,
Speaker 4: probably even some stolen books, I don't know, but anyway,
Speaker 4: I had like cut and pasted all kinds of great
Speaker 4: stuff into this journal. And I saw this Odelon Raidon
Speaker 4: image that just made me think, Wow, that would make
Speaker 4: the like a perfect tower card. And then funny enough,
Speaker 4: a friend of mine had sent me a template for
Speaker 4: a tarot for creating a tarot deck, and I was
Speaker 4: thinking I didn't even know you could just do this
Speaker 4: just you know, like wing it and make your own deck.
Speaker 4: And so, because I don't really love to draw or
Speaker 4: paint myself, I've always been obsessed with like curating images,
Speaker 4: and a lot of my decks are about that. So
Speaker 4: they're like finding obscure imagery out there in the public
Speaker 4: domain and sometimes even antique decks. And because I have
Speaker 4: like a experience in photoshop where I co taught with
Speaker 4: some masters, Photoshop is something I love to work in
Speaker 4: and I love to kind of like what they call
Speaker 4: paint with light and so light and shadow. And so anyway,
Speaker 4: I was thinking, well, I'm just going to like take
Speaker 4: odelan radon artwork, and little by little I saw that
Speaker 4: they were really corresponding with what would be considered the
Speaker 4: traditional Rider Waight Smith style, you know. And so I
Speaker 4: created that deck and found out about Kickstarter being like
Speaker 4: the I don't know, the industry standard for getting you know,
Speaker 4: like a funding for something like a deck, and a
Speaker 4: lot of people mostly just buy their decks through Kickstarter
Speaker 4: nowadays and their indie decks. So that's what I did,
Speaker 4: and I put that one out and that was the
Speaker 4: beginning of it all.
Speaker 2: That's awesome nice, but yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, I know your question was about like esotericism
Speaker 4: and magic and all of that, so like I would
Speaker 4: say that, you know, it's always been embedded in my spirit,
Speaker 4: but I didn't get heavily steeped into ritualizing it and
Speaker 4: practicing until my late forties. And that was because I
Speaker 4: had a sort of you could say, like I met
Speaker 4: some influences that made it all make sense for me
Speaker 4: for seeing that it was authentic and just like a fad.
Speaker 11: Did you want to assoult to Jim, Yeah, I'm just
Speaker 11: going to say that I identify with the curation of images
Speaker 11: rather than particularly being an art producer on your own,
Speaker 11: I'm also like that.
Speaker 6: So I understand.
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask you about Urania Press and why
Speaker 7: Urania because we, as we've often discussed on the show
Speaker 7: and my shows and all of the shows that we do,
Speaker 7: very broadly is we've called, well at least I call
Speaker 7: it an of the daughter. So I know Urania as
Speaker 7: a daughter, So I just wanted to know if that, like,
Speaker 7: who is that for you?
Speaker 6: And why did you decide to name your press that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, Urania as the amuse when I was looking
Speaker 4: into her because I had notions that I wanted to
Speaker 4: do something with astrology. But I'm not a professional astrologer.
Speaker 4: I'm an enthusiast and I just kind of studied on
Speaker 4: my own, and I look at my chart and I
Speaker 4: just deep die. But when I was looking at the muses,
Speaker 4: Urania was not only the mus of astronomy, but she's
Speaker 4: also like a muse of poetry. I mean, there are
Speaker 4: others of poetry, but she also that was also listed
Speaker 4: for Urania. And because I'm an Aquarius and I'm you know,
Speaker 4: also like Capricorn rising, I have Saturn obviously very heavy
Speaker 4: in my chart, and Saturn is she's the daughter's so
Speaker 4: she's the daughter of Zeus, right, and then of course
Speaker 4: the great uh the granddaughter of Saturn and the great
Speaker 4: granddaughter of Uranus, and Uranus is my ruling planet. So
Speaker 4: Urania made sense for me, even though I'm not like
Speaker 4: a professional astrologer. But I knew that I would be
Speaker 4: bringing some decks out of obscurity, like the Starlar Arkana
Speaker 4: deck came out, and also I did Astronomia, which was
Speaker 4: another deck that had to do with like planets and asteroids,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, I knew I would be publishing some
Speaker 4: work in that vein, but not all the work. It
Speaker 4: doesn't have to really pigeonhole me.
Speaker 7: Just a quick follow up. That was great. I agree
Speaker 7: with all of that. I think it's in a quote
Speaker 7: unquote aquarium age, so very fitting.
Speaker 6: But I also.
Speaker 7: I wonder if the symbologists, like from an art history perspective, yes,
Speaker 7: of course it's not necessarily what you would call metaphysics
Speaker 7: per se, but I would I would posit that all
Speaker 7: the work of a symbologist is basically kabbala, and many
Speaker 7: people on this panel would probably agree with me. And
Speaker 7: so looking at Odeon's work, I just I think that
Speaker 7: you're right in seeing that there are correspondences to the
Speaker 7: writer Weight deck, because, as Nick said, like for someone
Speaker 7: like me who's not a Tarot reader, the deck only
Speaker 7: makes sense in relationship to the Kobala stick tree because
Speaker 7: all the cards are supposed to represent paths or pathworkings
Speaker 7: or suffer atic concepts. So that's where really the images arise.
Speaker 7: So I also saw it right away just in pre
Speaker 7: pre recording, because his deck is heavily laid with what
Speaker 7: I would call kabalistic themes. Now I'm not expecting you
Speaker 7: to call it that, But if you want to like
Speaker 7: address that in any way, i'd appreciate it.
Speaker 4: No, I have not actually looked at that. I haven't.
Speaker 4: I mean, if anything, it would just be a kind
Speaker 4: of synchronous because it all ties in mystically. But I
Speaker 4: haven't spent any time with that concept. So sorry about that,
Speaker 4: But i'd love I mean, if you want to, like,
Speaker 4: you know, elucidate some more on it, you you know,
Speaker 4: feel free.
Speaker 7: Well, even his concept of the severed head is actually
Speaker 7: a symbol of in like that. I'm a Tibetan Buddhist,
Speaker 7: so I generally use tontric astrology or pyonic stories to
Speaker 7: sort of relate metaphysical concepts, but I'm very comfortable using
Speaker 7: elec tradtional Jewish cabala as well. But one of the
Speaker 7: ideas of like the Aquarium age and tntra is the
Speaker 7: severed head. So there's even a goddess called Chinnamastica. She's
Speaker 7: she with the severed head. She severs her own head
Speaker 7: in fact, but she's kind of the bearer of the
Speaker 7: Aquarian or the Uranian age. So his work obviously deals
Speaker 7: with this figure, the severed head image. And we obviously
Speaker 7: looked at the magician card pre recording, and there is
Speaker 7: the skull so very Saturnian, the ruler of bones, the
Speaker 7: you know, the last density before we lose form. And
Speaker 7: then there was also a head I believe in the basket.
Speaker 7: So it's like both his ego, his physical body and
Speaker 7: then what is looking at it. Why I would argue
Speaker 7: that it's his spiritual self.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that. I mean it makes me think
Speaker 4: of that whole idea of like the disembodied head you
Speaker 4: know for sure is more about for me like non
Speaker 4: materialism and yeah, like that the ability to kind of
Speaker 4: like take yourself away from the ego and the body
Speaker 4: in that regard and do you you know, dive deeper
Speaker 4: into dreams and the surreal and you know, the imagination.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I know that's definitely a theme that you
Speaker 4: see often with his work.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Nice.
Speaker 1: I also want to add or like kind of bring
Speaker 1: out the idea of the sumvered head in we've maybe
Speaker 1: heard it from the same thing as like John the Baptist, right,
Speaker 1: the Gnostics or the Templars were said to have had
Speaker 1: the head of John the Baptist, which would mumble out
Speaker 1: glossialalia to you and if you had the right level
Speaker 1: of initiation, you would be able to hear the words
Speaker 1: which may stem from and be the similar thing to
Speaker 1: the Lost Keys of Freemasonry.
Speaker 8: Interesting enough.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then of course there's the head of Orpheus,
Speaker 4: you know, the muse exactly. It's all tied in. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's certainly archetypal, and the symbolism is definitely broad and
Speaker 4: it's great to hear of that Eastern tradition too.
Speaker 3: With that, do you do you subscribe to like putting
Speaker 3: the two on the tree of life, because that's something
Speaker 3: you look at.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's funny because I think I spread
Speaker 4: myself all over the place, and so I've been actually
Speaker 4: careful not to go towards Kabbala and I know and
Speaker 4: the reason why is because it would just take me
Speaker 4: into a deep dive that I have not wanted to do.
Speaker 4: It's just like I am, I don't know, Like I
Speaker 4: there's only so much that I can take on for myself.
Speaker 4: That is, like you know, Hellenistic household worship, and you know,
Speaker 4: the myths and mysticisms of you know, like Western esoteric magic.
Speaker 4: And I know that the Kabbala is huge, but I
Speaker 4: have just not I have and felt drawn to it
Speaker 4: because it's going to be too much of a deep
Speaker 4: dive for me that I just haven't. Yeah, it just
Speaker 4: hasn't drawn me. I know that that's probably crazy to
Speaker 4: all of you, because I know that I've listened to
Speaker 4: some of your podcasts and you definitely go there, but I, yeah,
Speaker 4: I haven't, And I think it's just because it's too
Speaker 4: much for me to take on.
Speaker 1: I just want to add a little thing is where
Speaker 1: it doesn't Actually, I think you would agree that when
Speaker 1: you tap in, because you're not a dabbler, right, You
Speaker 1: didn't do these things to dabble. You were tapping into
Speaker 1: an artistic current. And that artistic current then means that
Speaker 1: you are becoming your own magician when you tap into
Speaker 1: those things, thus pulling, as Carl Jungs would say, these metaphors,
Speaker 1: myths and symbols from the unconscious realms, and so you
Speaker 1: didn't need to actually study it per se, but through
Speaker 1: your ritual of artistry, you were tapping into a similar
Speaker 1: current as then what you're talking about with Odlan, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I know like you can take the taro
Speaker 4: and just do any of that with it, you know,
Speaker 4: like Damien Iggles has done it. With the angels, you know,
Speaker 4: and you can just take taro and you can apply
Speaker 4: any science and any mysticism to it. So that's just
Speaker 4: one that I haven't done because, as I said, it's
Speaker 4: just more of like I realized that it would be
Speaker 4: too much of a deep dive for me. That hasn't
Speaker 4: felt aligned. But I mean, I'm sure, like you know,
Speaker 4: you're saying it is aligned, but I haven't felt that
Speaker 4: it's needed for me.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And only that is aligned in that you're doing
Speaker 1: what great shaman's magicians mystics have done throughout all of
Speaker 1: history instead of having you know, because we live in
Speaker 1: a strange time where now we have the ability to
Speaker 1: look up all the different significances and attributes and see
Speaker 1: how they align from what the Golden Dawn did with
Speaker 1: hermetic kabbala and adding it all together. But for a
Speaker 1: long time, everyone was so scattered and across the globe,
Speaker 1: so you didn't actually have the ability to maybe read
Speaker 1: from all the great libraries as we do today.
Speaker 8: So it's kind of you're taking on that current without
Speaker 8: you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean in my early twenties, that was
Speaker 4: the thing, like I saw the Tree of Life and
Speaker 4: I wanted to dabble in it, and then I realized, like, no,
Speaker 4: I don't want to just.
Speaker 8: Yeah exactly that.
Speaker 9: Yeah, starting I'm curious not to say it.
Speaker 10: Since you like the Greek mythology and tarrot, have you
Speaker 10: ever used or encountered the mystic from I have seen.
Speaker 4: It online and actually, yeah, that's one that I have
Speaker 4: on my list, but I haven't you know, I don't
Speaker 4: own it.
Speaker 9: You you should take a look at It's very nice.
Speaker 4: I think that's that deck particularly, I have heard people
Speaker 4: say is just like their kind of standard deck. So yeah,
Speaker 4: some people yeah.
Speaker 10: For reading that the one I used the most because
Speaker 10: it's just so easy, especially on the West, since people
Speaker 10: know the Greek stories amidst explained stuff through the just
Speaker 10: like the imagery and themology, and it's nice. They all
Speaker 10: connected one and all the minor arkin are also from myths,
Speaker 10: so like the cup are from Aeros and Psyche, the
Speaker 10: swords is from Orestes or wherever I was a live
Speaker 10: English the ones are from Jason, and the pentacles are
Speaker 10: from Midas. No meat us from the father of eCos
Speaker 10: for us they right now. But anyways, so there's always
Speaker 10: like the myth through the ace.
Speaker 9: To the ten, and then all the are connected in
Speaker 9: this one.
Speaker 4: So did you say Jason as in the Argonaut?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay, that sounds great.
Speaker 8: I love that thanks to riff Off.
Speaker 7: Matt's point is is that, yeah, the mythological narrative Nantasia
Speaker 7: is is one layer of that of one layer of kabala.
Speaker 7: Like him just even telling you the story, he's drawing
Speaker 7: you through a kabalistic narrative, like he's drawing you through
Speaker 7: the tree. And then so for me, who is is
Speaker 7: driven by myth? But I would say more an experiential cabalist.
Speaker 7: For me, it's colors and words. So I relate to
Speaker 7: perhaps like you, to words as magic words as both
Speaker 7: a container of a narrative or can contain a narrative
Speaker 7: maybe as well as inherently magical in and of themselves.
Speaker 6: So that's really alcabla is.
Speaker 7: It's just a series of like ways that we understand
Speaker 7: the correspondences.
Speaker 6: Usually with words.
Speaker 7: So a poet is very well positioned to also be
Speaker 7: a to create magic. Now, whether that person believes themselves
Speaker 7: a magician or not. Obviously every great magician, they say,
Speaker 7: or all the ones I most of the ones that
Speaker 7: I've ever met, or the ones that from history, like
Speaker 7: Austin Osman Spare is like obviously the perennial example because
Speaker 7: he was a poet, an artist, and a magician at
Speaker 7: the same time.
Speaker 4: An ultimate weirdo, an ultimate weirdo, an ultimate outside outside exactly.
Speaker 7: So we so there's a joke that we talk about
Speaker 7: on our group show is that every magician is an
Speaker 7: in fact a word style, which is a very twitter
Speaker 7: online kind of word. But it makes perfect sense because
Speaker 7: the ways you tell stories is very magical, like how
Speaker 7: you you know, like what symbols you use to relay
Speaker 7: specific conceptual ideas that's going to give people. Maybe they
Speaker 7: won't believe it then the wholesale sort of like components
Speaker 7: of it, but even if they take one element and
Speaker 7: then they say, oh, I'm going to utilize this for magic,
Speaker 7: like they do with HP Lovecraft very often.
Speaker 9: I'm curious also to understand how do you approach the
Speaker 9: tarot readings as then there are a lot of people,
Speaker 9: for example, who would get a reading done and then
Speaker 9: assume that's like a sentence that's like, Okay, that's the
Speaker 9: story that I'm telling you, and that's the sentence for
Speaker 9: how it's going to play out. And some are.
Speaker 10: People like how I prefer to do this, for example,
Speaker 10: is show them like, hey, this is where your head
Speaker 10: is at at the moment, and if you want to, okay,
Speaker 10: live that story, good for you.
Speaker 2: Go live it.
Speaker 10: If you want to change this story a little bit,
Speaker 10: you can go this way deck way, And it's more
Speaker 10: like as a map they can navigate instead of again
Speaker 10: a sentence or I don't know, maybe other creative ways
Speaker 10: of the fixed stories.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they give you fixed stories. I think that's what
Speaker 2: you're kind of saying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like the idea of the map. I think
Speaker 4: of it as like for me, like developing a mythos,
Speaker 4: a personal mythos, And so I love to use a
Speaker 4: bunch of different decks. So like I only pretty much
Speaker 4: clarify my questions or my spreads with my decks, just
Speaker 4: because I like to use others decks and not just
Speaker 4: be all about me and my things that I've created.
Speaker 4: But I do really resonate with a few of my
Speaker 4: decks very strongly, and I think they are potent in talismanic,
Speaker 4: so I definitely use them. And so how I work
Speaker 4: is I don't tend to do like any traditional spreads
Speaker 4: like the Celtic Cross or anything like that, although obviously
Speaker 4: I learned it originally in my early twenties, but just
Speaker 4: what I do now, it's more effective for me to
Speaker 4: just kind of like end up with a table full
Speaker 4: of cards that are all over the place, and I
Speaker 4: usually what I do is I start with like a
Speaker 4: past present in future writer away smith kind of pull,
Speaker 4: and then I start asking more questions and developing what
Speaker 4: I call like clarifiers with other decks, my decks and things.
Speaker 4: And so I feel like it's a deep dive in
Speaker 4: a lot of ways because and I also get my
Speaker 4: pendulum out sometimes and ask yes or no questions and
Speaker 4: things like that, because my pendulum is just like freaking unbelievable.
Speaker 4: So it's just aligned with me. It's got that what
Speaker 4: they call like the ingez spirit you know in it,
Speaker 4: so it's it's alive, and it helps me a lot
Speaker 4: with like that yes or no. But you can't do
Speaker 4: yes or no with like taro, so you've got to
Speaker 4: really develop a storyline to follow, you know, like those
Speaker 4: branches will go from there, they'll go down or they'll
Speaker 4: go up. And so I decide, you know, it's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1: I would like to ask then I think it's kind
Speaker 1: of a good bass question is then what does the
Speaker 1: taro mean to you? And how do you see it
Speaker 1: play out in your world as well as the world
Speaker 1: at large.
Speaker 4: It's just another tool or device for me because actually
Speaker 4: even before Tarot, like when I was, you know, say
Speaker 4: sixteen seventeen, I was writing poetry. I was no sorry,
Speaker 4: I was writing lyrics because I wanted to be in
Speaker 4: a band and then I got in a little like
Speaker 4: garage band playing through role in synthesizer. And yeah, so
Speaker 4: I was writing lyrics early on, and then heavily got
Speaker 4: into poetry, like heavily like discovered like but are not
Speaker 4: through Percy Shelley the Romance. So I was really into
Speaker 4: the romantics.
Speaker 8: Nice I still still am.
Speaker 4: And then I got into like the Decaden writers of
Speaker 4: the simplest era and anyway, so Taro for me is
Speaker 4: just another devnation oracular tool. And so how I feel
Speaker 4: about it now that I've you know, like I'm in
Speaker 4: my fifties, right, so I'm like really thinking about all
Speaker 4: of these paths that I've gone down through my life
Speaker 4: and different avenues I've taken, Like even like the mothering
Speaker 4: thing that I talked about earlier, you know, and how
Speaker 4: I kind of slipped away from you know, like magic
Speaker 4: and esoteric things then and that was in a lot
Speaker 4: of ways, that was for me to realize certain things
Speaker 4: about myself and my path. And so Taro and the
Speaker 4: a regular tradition for me goes back to like Apollo
Speaker 4: and the muses and the soul's ability to connect with
Speaker 4: the diamon and to divine what you know, like what
Speaker 4: is important in their lives and what can enrich their
Speaker 4: lives and how they can become more embodied and more sovereign.
Speaker 4: So the Taro great tradition out of you know, the Renaissance.
Speaker 4: But for me it's also just like just a tool,
Speaker 4: so I can use other tools too. And I used
Speaker 4: to do the eaching quite a bit, but I won't
Speaker 4: go into it right now, but I did do that
Speaker 4: for years as well. Nice and I mean, obviously I
Speaker 4: love to like read different books from you know, like
Speaker 4: who have you know written about Taro and you know,
Speaker 4: like Yodowski and Rachel Pollock. And yeah, there are definitely
Speaker 4: explorations that can take people in different directions with the
Speaker 4: Taro itself, but really it's just a building block slash
Speaker 4: tool for self discovery, and you know, like you could
Speaker 4: call it, like you know, fortune telling. I don't really
Speaker 4: like to all at that, because you know, you could
Speaker 4: get a reading from it, which could be pretty inspirational,
Speaker 4: but then something could turn on a dime, definitely, and
Speaker 4: so you could just obsessively go back and do more terroostpreads,
Speaker 4: you know, but at some point a person needs to
Speaker 4: And that's what happened with me, is that I read
Speaker 4: for three straight years in Ireland and then I just
Speaker 4: stopped for years because I just got like inundated with
Speaker 4: it and I just didn't want to. It didn't have
Speaker 4: any meaning until it came back to me in my
Speaker 4: late forties and then the spirit of the decks really
Speaker 4: began to like show up. And not to say that
Speaker 4: they weren't there in my early twenties when I was
Speaker 4: in Ireland, because I'm sure they were, just so I
Speaker 4: didn't connect. I didn't know it, you know, Whereas now
Speaker 4: I work with gods. I know the presences of gods,
Speaker 4: and like when I meditate, I know when entities are
Speaker 4: speaking and when it's just my head or my psyche.
Speaker 8: Yeah, oh yeah, that's a great distinction.
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of dabblers in the occult
Speaker 1: and magic tend to forget is that there's these realms
Speaker 1: of the personal conscious where it's like, what is it,
Speaker 1: What is the difference between the phantasmagoria and just pure
Speaker 1: your personal imagination?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that phantasmagoria is pretty amazing as well,
Speaker 4: and you can you can construct that creatively something to
Speaker 4: suit your life as well.
Speaker 12: You know, yeah, definitely, that's definitely the flucks. Oh no,
Speaker 12: sorry to oh no, you go ahead. I was just
Speaker 12: saying that that is the phantasmic oria. I call it
Speaker 12: the flux.
Speaker 7: Every magician has their own vocabulary, right, like their own
Speaker 7: way of speaking of it.
Speaker 6: Cloquially, I call it the flux.
Speaker 7: So it's like what we draw from that is in that,
Speaker 7: and then what we can make of it. Obviously, every
Speaker 7: artist and magician both is always, always, always wants to
Speaker 7: make something of it. So that's a big part of it.
Speaker 7: But I wanted to actually one comment and one sort
Speaker 7: of follow up part. It's interesting that you bring up
Speaker 7: the Jodoroski book because when Nick had Cherry Para on
Speaker 7: who did the Left Hand Path Tarot book, she cited
Speaker 7: that book as one of her two inspirations, and I
Speaker 7: also find that book very like I find his work
Speaker 7: like incredibly inspiring. And I talked and we discuss how
Speaker 7: it like connects to his cinema work as well as
Speaker 7: his like comic book work with Mobius, and it's all
Speaker 7: kind of Taro and Kabbala and magic, like it's all
Speaker 7: metamagical together. So that's really interesting. But then you have
Speaker 7: one of your decks that you mentioned with Sublime Thresholds.
Speaker 7: So my show is called Threshold Saints, so I just
Speaker 7: obviously that's going to catch my attention. So Sublime Thresholds,
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask about the name and if you
Speaker 7: wanted to go into that deck a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. So back really quickly about Yodorowski. One of
Speaker 4: the things that I loved about his vision was that
Speaker 4: Tara was a sacred temple. And I think a lot
Speaker 4: of people, you know, like maybe you know in the
Speaker 4: early days of you know, working with Tara, might not
Speaker 4: necessarily see it as that or like a way, you know,
Speaker 4: like a journey in a way and like a hero's
Speaker 4: journey kind of thing. And that's definitely something that I see.
Speaker 4: Tara's just kind of finish off that inspiration of Tara.
Speaker 4: But okay, so for sublime thresholds that came about because
Speaker 4: let's see, so in twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen, I
Speaker 4: did a master's degree in creative writing and I had
Speaker 4: to put together a thesis. And I've always, like I mentioned,
Speaker 4: have been into the decadent and writers and symbolists, and
Speaker 4: so I felt like what I loved about art the
Speaker 4: most was its enchanted quality that made me feel a
Speaker 4: sense of the sublime. And so I decided that the
Speaker 4: sublime was still around because a lot of like someone
Speaker 4: even wrote, I forget the name of the person that
Speaker 4: the sublime was, the sublime was dead, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 4: fuck no, And in fact, humans will be dead when
Speaker 4: the sublime becomes dead.
Speaker 8: Oh sure.
Speaker 4: And so anyway, for me, these sort of heightened experiences
Speaker 4: in either writing poetry or art or everything. You know,
Speaker 4: it's kind of like the arrows principle arrows E ro os,
Speaker 4: and so I wanted to explore and for that degree
Speaker 4: it had to do with literary things. So it was
Speaker 4: the endurance of the sublime in literary horror. And then
Speaker 4: this whole movement called the eco sublime, and so that's
Speaker 4: what I wrote my thesis on and that sat around
Speaker 4: for a few years afterwards, obviously, and then when I
Speaker 4: was thinking about a new project to do with Urania
Speaker 4: Press to publish, I was thinking how cool it would
Speaker 4: be to there's just so much beautiful artwork out there
Speaker 4: in the public domain, and a lot of it could
Speaker 4: easily correspond with tarot archetypes and like the hero's journey,
Speaker 4: and so I wanted to portray art that I felt
Speaker 4: like took you up to that threshold. And obviously, like
Speaker 4: the Wander amongst the Fog of Casper David Friedrich is
Speaker 4: like one of the most famous imagery of like, you know,
Speaker 4: the man standing on the cliff with the rolling you know,
Speaker 4: fog and clouds overlooking that. Like that's so like either
Speaker 4: two or three of Wand's you know, So, I mean
Speaker 4: sublime imagery corresponds pretty easily with the tarot tech in
Speaker 4: that journey. So that's when I just decided to put
Speaker 4: that together. And I ended up, you know, staying up
Speaker 4: till like three in the morning, like just doing super
Speaker 4: deep dives looking at over like four thousand images in
Speaker 4: the public domain, and even though some of them are
Speaker 4: quite familiar images, I put them in because I felt
Speaker 4: that they worked. But so I wasn't just grabbing whatever.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was really like just I spent so
Speaker 4: much time curating those, like I said, over four thousand
Speaker 4: images just to get the ones that I felt were right.
Speaker 4: And that of course is art work. That's you know,
Speaker 4: like either Gothic symbolist or Baroque.
Speaker 7: And Natasha, maybe we should define symbolists just for people
Speaker 7: who don't have an art history background, because I'm just
Speaker 7: thinking to myself, like, what if people don't actually know
Speaker 7: what that word means.
Speaker 6: Not that I mean I know what that word means.
Speaker 6: I mean, of course you do, but.
Speaker 7: Just in case, just because I feel like it's a
Speaker 7: lesser known movement.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the symbolists of pretty much like the late
Speaker 4: eighteen hundreds they call it, like the Findesi Ekla. They
Speaker 4: were mostly English, they's some German and French, and they
Speaker 4: were French, and their art recalled back to like classical
Speaker 4: times and myth and they loved you know, like Arthur
Speaker 4: Otherian myths and stories, and they definitely were against rationalism
Speaker 4: and realism, and so of course they also loved the
Speaker 4: Romantics and so they just they kind of harkened back
Speaker 4: to the magic and mystical really in art, that's my
Speaker 4: quick definition of it. They also, I think spent a
Speaker 4: lot of times in dream and and you know, working
Speaker 4: through their imagination, fantasy and the phantasma oracle. Yeah.
Speaker 3: One thing I did want to ask was a couple
Speaker 3: of things I wanted. One thing I wanted to mention
Speaker 3: that I noticed from you using I guess the e
Speaker 3: ching terror and a pendulum see rather than big into divination.
Speaker 3: Is that something you found yourself, I guess kind of
Speaker 3: beg into when you get into this stuff.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean I think I think I mentioned
Speaker 4: about Apollo and being the god of the oracular that
Speaker 4: there's a sense for me of if I was to say,
Speaker 4: like what archetype my spirit or my person here on
Speaker 4: earth now is connected to, it would be like the
Speaker 4: seer prophetesque oracle.
Speaker 8: And that sounds.
Speaker 4: Kind of, you know, presumptuous, So I'm sorry if it
Speaker 4: comes off that way. But I mean, if we all
Speaker 4: had to sit down and say this is my archetype,
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, Like, that's who I would say.
Speaker 4: I was like, I'm connected to this inner exploration of
Speaker 4: how to direct your life and the symbols and the
Speaker 4: things that can come down into your life to guide
Speaker 4: you that way, and they will come from the gods,
Speaker 4: and they like I am writing a book called some
Speaker 4: Femota and Simbola, and so I feel like they definitely
Speaker 4: are you know, like manifestations that come into your life
Speaker 4: from the gods, and so that devination is just a
Speaker 4: way to express it. And I could easily go online
Speaker 4: and just you know, do terror readings for people, but
Speaker 4: I am more interested in art and writing, so creative writing,
Speaker 4: and so I like to express my interests that way.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I feel like I could, you know, like
Speaker 4: I do readings for people, and I have gone to
Speaker 4: shows and things, but I primarily it's just from you know,
Speaker 4: helping friends or helping myself to just guide my way.
Speaker 4: It's you know, my place in the world and how
Speaker 4: I fit in and all. So like, yeah, why am
Speaker 4: I here?
Speaker 9: Re enjoy I'm sorry, And.
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, what can I offer?
Speaker 10: You know, Yeah, I re enjoy your way of seeing
Speaker 10: this and spending my Coba Master explains as if like
Speaker 10: reality is a series of frames like in a video,
Speaker 10: and then each frame you could see as like a
Speaker 10: tarot card. So like each I think now I'm this card,
Speaker 10: and then now I'm using this one and so on,
Speaker 10: so like you keep changing them. So when you are
Speaker 10: giving when you make a reading, like when you take
Speaker 10: them out, it's basically seeing what it's inside of you,
Speaker 10: but in a like a table or whatever. That then
Speaker 10: you can rearrange and then and then rewrite maybe or
Speaker 10: or try to understand, like you're saying, like who am
Speaker 10: I what is this archetype that keeps coming in? I
Speaker 10: did an experiment like I mentioned, I did seventy two
Speaker 10: weeks reading, like.
Speaker 9: Making a reading per week.
Speaker 10: I would take three card arts, and then after a
Speaker 10: couple of weeks I started doing one per day as well.
Speaker 10: So in total it was like hundreds of cards. And
Speaker 10: I saw the statistics at the end, and it was
Speaker 10: very funny that the top four cards had to do
Speaker 10: with my astrology signs, like when you make responses. So
Speaker 10: then to me there was again a sign where okay,
Speaker 10: I'm usually tapping into those archetypes. That makes sense, like
Speaker 10: that again that they're talking about each other like astrology
Speaker 10: and the terrorit and swan. So then if I know that,
Speaker 10: then I know what are my strengths, my weaknesses, my
Speaker 10: shark Cummings, I'll be best at and so on. So
Speaker 10: it's very pretty nice that way have seen it, like
Speaker 10: we're talking about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's beautiful. I like that connection.
Speaker 3: Another thing I wanted to ask I was just I'm
Speaker 3: assuming I could be wrong. I just know from my
Speaker 3: experience even with I guess Tarot too. Again, I really
Speaker 3: never had much of a clue, but just other stuff
Speaker 3: that I practiced.
Speaker 2: The way you looked at it at the.
Speaker 3: Beginning and the way you look at it now, is
Speaker 3: it can kind of different? Have you kind of gone
Speaker 3: through Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what were you going to say?
Speaker 3: Is it possible, like I know, I might be putting
Speaker 3: it on the spot, might be always even explained, but
Speaker 3: is there is there a way maybe you can even
Speaker 3: give examples, like how like I guess maybe your relationship
Speaker 3: with the cards have changed over time?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, like as I mentioned, I see the spirit
Speaker 4: that's behind it, so like I wouldn't I guess I
Speaker 4: call it like the spirit that presides over the deck.
Speaker 4: But I feel like i'm, you know, kind of like
Speaker 4: when I'm sitting down, I'm not alone, and that these
Speaker 4: things are living beings, these cards are living beings, and
Speaker 4: or even like, like I said, if I had my pendulum,
Speaker 4: not that I do a ton of work on my bench.
Speaker 4: I'm not just sitting here every day like holding my pendulum,
Speaker 4: but like there are important times in my life, you know,
Speaker 4: with certain questions and needs. But yeah, I think before
Speaker 4: obviously when I was in my early days, uh with Taro,
Speaker 4: I it's certainly enrich my life, but I didn't feel
Speaker 4: it was. It was more like an an addition to,
Speaker 4: you know, my world, but like it wasn't my world.
Speaker 4: And so whenever I sit down with like Taro, this
Speaker 4: is like my story coming out, my mythos as mentioned,
Speaker 4: and so it's almost like these beings are you know,
Speaker 4: whether they are like the diamond or like angelic intelligences
Speaker 4: or whatever they are, you know they are They're they're
Speaker 4: pushing that that story through the cards for me, and
Speaker 4: it's up to me and my intellect to like connect
Speaker 4: in with it and see the signs and symbols and
Speaker 4: understand it and like interpret it. And so I didn't
Speaker 4: have that sense in my early days reading Tara. It's
Speaker 4: more just like you know, getting the booklet out and
Speaker 4: you know, learning about it. But I think I did
Speaker 4: spend some time like sort of a young approach. Back then,
Speaker 4: I had a book that guided me that way. So
Speaker 4: I think that's why the hero's journey has always been
Speaker 4: kind of, you know, like the Joseph Campbell like kind
Speaker 4: of obsession that some people got into. I did fall
Speaker 4: into that in my early twenties. So yeah, I think
Speaker 4: now there's just way more of a sense of these
Speaker 4: are intelligences trying to communicate with me. How can I
Speaker 4: interpret them, bring them through that liminal threshold.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful, one of the beautiful. I'm one of those
Speaker 1: Joseph Campbell fanatics, and it's in the beginning of A
Speaker 1: Hero with a Thousand Faces, he says, the unconscious mind.
Speaker 8: Is like a Laddin's cave. It's got all.
Speaker 1: These beautiful things and jewels and everything nice and pretty.
Speaker 1: But then when you get deep dart into it, they
Speaker 1: call it the genobide. There are many then, both dark
Speaker 1: and scary and things that are going to up a.
Speaker 8: Lot of the shadow aspects of self.
Speaker 1: And what's so beautiful about the way you've kind of
Speaker 1: talked about the taro is even when you start bringing
Speaker 1: it into the ideas of intelligences and archangels and these
Speaker 1: different things which are just names depending upon what culture
Speaker 1: your nervous system is in.
Speaker 8: The beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: About it is that the taro is a living intelligence,
Speaker 1: and the more your nervous system and your brain and
Speaker 1: your body mind sysogy interact with it, the more you
Speaker 1: then can tap into the beautiful, right, the good and
Speaker 1: these platonic forms that are then being expressed. And these
Speaker 1: forms have this agragoric style nature that then when you,
Speaker 1: through your nervous system are playing with them or doing
Speaker 1: a reading, the more you've had the ability to touch
Speaker 1: and feel and be sensuous and have that orphic eros
Speaker 1: coming through them and you it's almost like you're becoming
Speaker 1: a swords master, right. The swords are now the cards
Speaker 1: and they're not separate from you, but they are integrated there.
Speaker 8: They are part of the hand, and so it's.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean you could even say like a
Speaker 4: Nuwan's master and a chalice master, you know, rail master
Speaker 4: and like, uh, you know, the pinnacles can have you
Speaker 4: know that symbolism as well. Yeah, but yeah, no, that's
Speaker 4: really amazing. I definitely created the Odelrado deck Taro Kaimera
Speaker 4: as a shadow work. I guess you could say deck
Speaker 4: just because of the fact that they're all noirs. I
Speaker 4: felt like that was sensible and sense it made sense
Speaker 4: to make that a deck to do deep dives with
Speaker 4: less subconscious and follow through that way. And I think
Speaker 4: the images touch you that way anyway. They're also kind
Speaker 4: of uncanny and funny and like they're just they're sublime
Speaker 4: in their own right. But yeah, that that sense that
Speaker 4: he must have had of connected to spirit is so
Speaker 4: clear with that those images. I keep wanting to say
Speaker 4: cards but obvious artwork.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that are his art is fantastic and I
Speaker 1: like how you express them through the cards, So I
Speaker 1: like to see it. And when we talk about these things,
Speaker 1: it's like how many different angles and like models are
Speaker 1: we viewing reality through. But the major arcana are almost
Speaker 1: just and even your then minor kona. They're just structures
Speaker 1: of existence, and each structure has a certain form which
Speaker 1: then follows function, you know. And so it's like once
Speaker 1: you get his nervous system and the way he perceives things,
Speaker 1: and then it's really it's such a fascinating thing to
Speaker 1: see then how you've constructed the major arcana from because
Speaker 1: it's like the major arcona is set, you know, what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's like you have everything from the full
Speaker 1: to the aon and you're then trying to build this
Speaker 1: beautiful thing off of it, like you already have this
Speaker 1: idea da set and then how do we pull out
Speaker 1: through his work and you put it into that ark.
Speaker 8: It's a beautiful deck.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I feel like sometimes I think to myself, like, gosh,
Speaker 4: I wish there was more, like there must be more
Speaker 4: than just you know, like the twenty two, because it
Speaker 4: feels like you could easily like sit down and figure
Speaker 4: out more.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: R Connor that you could come up with.
Speaker 8: You know, it's true.
Speaker 1: But then we get into the problem of the post
Speaker 1: modern chaos magicians. And then that problem is all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you get too erratic and you don't have
Speaker 1: any set structure, and then all of a sudden you're
Speaker 1: just fucking.
Speaker 6: All over the place.
Speaker 7: Now now, now, now that is completely unfair. That feels
Speaker 7: like fighting words episode.
Speaker 6: So that is not true.
Speaker 7: I'm a cast as you know, if you pass to
Speaker 7: the to the tree, and that is why there are
Speaker 7: twenty two major arcons.
Speaker 6: I want to say that that's true.
Speaker 7: Chaos wrap on the show.
Speaker 6: Just for the record, No, it's true.
Speaker 1: And I have my own inner chaos magician obviously through
Speaker 1: my hellenization of all the different things I do. So
Speaker 1: you're right, and I need I need individuals like yourself, Jin,
Speaker 1: to help pull me back.
Speaker 4: So thank It feels nicely Saturnian to have those that structure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't, and that's my mercurialness nature.
Speaker 8: I can't help it.
Speaker 1: I want to in hot I want to put it
Speaker 1: all together into this neat little package through all a
Speaker 1: crazy chaos.
Speaker 7: That's a really good A really good chaos magician actually
Speaker 7: likes to work within boundaries because it provides a useful
Speaker 7: framework for which to draw forth from the flux into
Speaker 7: something material. It's a true pathworking. It's like a true
Speaker 7: if you're willing into pathworking chaos magics for you, it's
Speaker 7: just that you have to take it with the limitations
Speaker 7: at it, you know, has that's all.
Speaker 8: No, it's beautiful. Yeah, you're so elegantly.
Speaker 1: I always state these things, Jin, and I appreciate you there,
Speaker 1: thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I used to integrate like chas magic into my virtual work,
Speaker 3: but it was never like purely that It's hard to explain,
Speaker 3: like like sigils and certain things like maybe I would
Speaker 3: use do chaos magic with like you'll use that sigil
Speaker 3: and charge it, but it's because I'm using that for
Speaker 3: a ritual I'm going to do a few days later.
Speaker 2: That was never like the type explain.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't like to call my magic chaos
Speaker 4: magic per se, but it must obviously be because I
Speaker 4: I take in what makes sense to me and what
Speaker 4: works for me. And if it's from all different you know,
Speaker 4: any different traditions, that's awesome. And like I was saying,
Speaker 4: I haven't really gone down the deep dive of kabbala,
Speaker 4: and but I yeah, like I find that I don't
Speaker 4: want to limit myself so but but I I seek
Speaker 4: that wisdom from within. It's something that comes from within.
Speaker 4: It's not like, oh, that looks cool. I want to,
Speaker 4: you know, explore that that's something maybe I did do
Speaker 4: in my early days, but not later now I'm you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's what I call like my synchronistic path. It's
Speaker 4: what comes to me that is symbolic and synchronous synchronicities.
Speaker 4: I can see things that start shaping up and they're
Speaker 4: presenting themselves to me. Like when I discovered that a
Speaker 4: couple of years ago, I discovered that Apollo and Athena
Speaker 4: have been in my life since I was a teen,
Speaker 4: like an early teen, or maybe even like a little kid.
Speaker 4: But I didn't know that all through my twenties, thirties,
Speaker 4: and forties, no joke. But when I now look at
Speaker 4: all these things throughout my life that have happened to me,
Speaker 4: and I can tie it all to either Apollo or Athena.
Speaker 4: And it's very interesting because I never said, oh, I
Speaker 4: want to, you know, be a devotional devotee of like
Speaker 4: Apollo or Athena, but that they have been like speaking
Speaker 4: to me all through these years in signs and symbols,
Speaker 4: and it just took a while.
Speaker 8: Before Dawn taught me yes.
Speaker 4: And you know, it was just like I think it
Speaker 4: was because I started like magical thinking became who I am.
Speaker 4: I think I've always had like magical thinking, but I
Speaker 4: embodied it so much more in my late forties when
Speaker 4: I could kind of like step back from mothering basically,
Speaker 4: you know, get back into you know, all the sort
Speaker 4: of things that make me who I am and not
Speaker 4: just like always pleasing my little ones and making their
Speaker 4: lives enchanting, you know. And so yeah, it was like
Speaker 4: very important to discover that there were particular gods on
Speaker 4: my side that I didn't even know were there, and
Speaker 4: now I'm certain they've been there. You know.
Speaker 7: Well, there's something interesting actually when I talked to you
Speaker 7: about what you just said in reference to Kabbalah, is that, well,
Speaker 7: first fall your past age of forty, so you across
Speaker 7: the you know, the threshold you could say, into the
Speaker 7: ascetic consciousness that of Jupiter. Jupiter is also a co
Speaker 7: ruler of Uranus. You said you're an Aquarius. Well, the
Speaker 7: spirit of Aquarius is driven by the idea of justice,
Speaker 7: so that's also.
Speaker 6: Very asthetic in a way.
Speaker 7: So there's a direct one to one kind of correspondence
Speaker 7: in the higher event obviously occurs on that pillar, and
Speaker 7: that can be related to Neptune, but it can also
Speaker 7: or Hope mob but it can it can also be
Speaker 7: related Togetherra, which has a Mars which has a very
Speaker 7: strong relationship with Jupiter or Hesse. So it's kind of
Speaker 7: like the it's that priestly knowledge, that kind of thing
Speaker 7: that you're talking about self referential. You're like, your internal
Speaker 7: flame is kind of what guides you your arrow with an
Speaker 7: a so that that kind of does actually directly correlate.
Speaker 7: And then there's an idea that the coming age will
Speaker 7: be a solar one or will have a solar lunar
Speaker 7: synthetic element, so like Apollo and an Athena.
Speaker 6: A son and a daughter. So that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 7: I think just from a you know, just like a
Speaker 7: speculative like gnostic perspective, and I think you're you're right.
Speaker 7: I think I think that's what it is about, is
Speaker 7: drawing from things that are meaningful, that makes sense to you,
Speaker 7: and that are practical that work. It's not just we're
Speaker 7: not replicating Golden Down, you know, ritual texts wholesale. You're
Speaker 7: looking at them in like terms of the whole landscape.
Speaker 7: So yeah, I think that if you want to call
Speaker 7: yourself a chaot, I think that's cool.
Speaker 6: But you know that's just me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess it's almost like it's hard not
Speaker 1: to be categorized in that chaos magic realm, especially since
Speaker 1: there are very few people who have been initiated through
Speaker 1: structural systems like the Golden Dawn, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: And so we're all kind of just uh an amalgamorum
Speaker 1: of these teachings that have come down through time and
Speaker 1: then trying to put them through our own nervous systems
Speaker 1: to understand our body mind.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think a lot of what I'm trying
Speaker 4: to say too, is like who I have become and
Speaker 4: who I am is a lot of it's from DNA memory,
Speaker 4: is what I call it, like cellular memory, And so
Speaker 4: it's like what I must have and could have easily been,
Speaker 4: because I'm absolutely, you know, for me, certain that I've
Speaker 4: had past lives, and so I spend a lot of
Speaker 4: time thinking about and connecting in with past lives and
Speaker 4: the traditions that I may have followed then and the
Speaker 4: initiations I may have had then. And for instance, you know,
Speaker 4: like I have a desire to move to Italy but
Speaker 4: maybe potentially France to study taro more deeply from the
Speaker 4: early decks that were created in the Renaissance and really
Speaker 4: Renaissance and latent evil. And so I because I have
Speaker 4: direct correlations to certain like families from Italy and certain
Speaker 4: Tarot traditions, you know, not like Tero traditions, but Taro,
Speaker 4: like the Tarocchi, and like the creators and the families
Speaker 4: that were making those. And I've had a lot of
Speaker 4: bizarre synchronicities come into my life about all of that,
Speaker 4: and so I just know that there's the stuff that
Speaker 4: touches my life. There's no sis that touches my life
Speaker 4: from past life experiences. And I used to be really
Speaker 4: I felt funny talking about it with people, like constantly
Speaker 4: talking about past lives, until I discovered that the Greeks
Speaker 4: that was you know, they had that word for it too, and.
Speaker 8: Met psychosis or transmigration.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, with metam psychosis like they were, you know,
Speaker 4: it was completely normal and not abnormal to understand you're
Speaker 4: like and if particularly like you were saying orphic initiat,
Speaker 4: which I'm certain that I had some experience of that
Speaker 4: in a past life and probably was involved in some
Speaker 4: of the mysteries, and so that nosis comes through, and
Speaker 4: you know, like I am a woman, so I suppose
Speaker 4: there's more of a sense of like that intuitive side.
Speaker 4: So it's like all of the magic that may seem
Speaker 4: like chaos, magic that comes into my life can also
Speaker 4: not just be from things that I discovered in my
Speaker 4: teens and twenties and thirties, forties, fifties, you know, but
Speaker 4: like brought through from many generations, in many lives and
Speaker 4: many weird experiences and things where I've had extreme trauma.
Speaker 4: In fact, I've talked about this on other podcasts, but
Speaker 4: I think that my road towards motherhood in this life
Speaker 4: was to blanket some of the traumas of past lives
Speaker 4: and to kind of keep that bay my magic, and
Speaker 4: once my kids were old enough, I was allowed to
Speaker 4: let it through. I was allowed to sort of step
Speaker 4: away and like let that like deep magic come out
Speaker 4: and not be so afraid of it because of you know,
Speaker 4: experiences and past lives. Worse probably for me it was
Speaker 4: strangled and drowned rather than burnt.
Speaker 2: But yet.
Speaker 4: Those experiences I think are in our you know, bones
Speaker 4: and our like DNA history and like cellular stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, nice, Uh, Judith, is this something you wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you?
Speaker 5: I did have a question because of your approach towards
Speaker 5: the way you developed these cards.
Speaker 8: I'm unfamiliar with it, and I could.
Speaker 5: See the artistry work within the cards, but you also
Speaker 5: added literature. So I was wondering to help those who
Speaker 5: are new to your approach in this your dex. Do
Speaker 5: you how can I say, connect like a specific work
Speaker 5: of art, like a specific poem to each card, to
Speaker 5: help like someone who gets your card connect with the
Speaker 5: vibe and the the emotion and the feeling you're trying
Speaker 5: to invoke with it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that was kind of why I got into
Speaker 4: creating tarot, because I've always loved poetry and I've always
Speaker 4: loved art, and I've always wondered how to combine the two.
Speaker 4: So I did book arts for a little while, but
Speaker 4: it never really it just didn't sustain me and I
Speaker 4: it just wasn't like I didn't want to keep just
Speaker 4: creating like standalone art books or whatever. So but yeah,
Speaker 4: so I wanted to do more writing. That's when I
Speaker 4: went back to school for creative writing, and I wanted
Speaker 4: to then express the two together somehow, And Taro made
Speaker 4: sense because you know, you've got the interpretations alongside the
Speaker 4: card itself. And so I wanted mine to be definitely
Speaker 4: like poetic inspired. So whenever I write, it is a
Speaker 4: bit of like what someone might say channeling, and you know,
Speaker 4: I will I will do it from like the hero's
Speaker 4: journey kind of perspective. It's mythic, it's poetic and it's
Speaker 4: magical minded, you know. And I don't have a specific
Speaker 4: you know, like poem, but I have put poems together
Speaker 4: with Tara, like my Sublime Threshold steck for each interpretation
Speaker 4: does have a poem from some other famous you know,
Speaker 4: like writer. But yeah, does that answer your question or
Speaker 4: was there more you wanted me to explain?
Speaker 5: Actually it did because because I was trying to understand
Speaker 5: since you don't use the kabala and a it's not
Speaker 5: the ruined system and you say you don't necessarily follow
Speaker 5: astrology too much. I was trying to put that together
Speaker 5: and see how to move forward when it comes to
Speaker 5: using your deck.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, well, I mean all the all the
Speaker 4: decks I've created all have guide books that are extended,
Speaker 4: so not just the little white book that goes in
Speaker 4: the deck, but like creative interpretations that I've written that
Speaker 4: go with them, and that usually for my indie decks,
Speaker 4: there are separate books that I've published, and with the
Speaker 4: wiser decks, they have them right in there with the
Speaker 4: like a box set.
Speaker 3: Yep, that's all was the one they sent me, very nice,
Speaker 3: cythe I wanted to ask you, what's what is different
Speaker 3: about emblem emblemata?
Speaker 2: Sorry is how do you say that one again?
Speaker 4: Emblemata?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, it was right.
Speaker 3: What's like what's different about that deck, like the reason
Speaker 3: Like normally when I ask people who write a book,
Speaker 3: like what will you bring to the public that's different
Speaker 3: than everybody else you wrote on this topic?
Speaker 2: So you know what I'm saying, I kind of like
Speaker 2: the same thing with your taro.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. I mean I think for me, they
Speaker 4: well first and foremost when I had seen a lot
Speaker 4: of the emblemsloading around, like when I would go to
Speaker 4: Pinterest and just on the internet, and I'd always been
Speaker 4: drawn to them because they have that like iconic. They're
Speaker 4: black and white, they're iconic, and they are archaic, which
Speaker 4: has always interested me because there's a sense of the
Speaker 4: mystical and the metaphysical behind them and obviously archetypal and symbolic,
Speaker 4: but it's for what I love about them is they
Speaker 4: are from the Renaissance, and there's a sense of Renaissance
Speaker 4: wisdom there, so there's like it's like they are microcosms
Speaker 4: of something bigger and they're emblematic, you know, and they
Speaker 4: are they represent different things for the culture at the time,
Speaker 4: and they were for people who were both literate and illiterate,
Speaker 4: because people who could read could read them, mom, but
Speaker 4: people who couldn't really could look at the symbols and
Speaker 4: they could kind of guess and figure.
Speaker 8: It out, you know.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think that with Renaissance wisdom, there's a
Speaker 4: sense of no separation of you know, like spirituality and
Speaker 4: philosophy and science and theology. It was all kind of
Speaker 4: like together as one. At least that's how I interpret it,
Speaker 4: and so early science obviously, but you know, so things
Speaker 4: like astronomy and like music and you know, painting and
Speaker 4: everything was kind of like combined into a philosophy. And
Speaker 4: so that's what I love about these emblems, and they're
Speaker 4: also they tre they're transcendent for me because you know,
Speaker 4: you can you can decode them of their clues, but
Speaker 4: I think that they speak for themselves just by looking
Speaker 4: at them, and they can be contemporary even though they're ancient.
Speaker 4: So uh yeah, I think that's what makes some special.
Speaker 4: They were created in fifteen fifty one. If you need
Speaker 4: to know the name of the these particular, the person
Speaker 4: who curated these, it's Claude Paradine and his book device
Speaker 4: is aerow Week And there were many emblematic books of
Speaker 4: the time, and I think there's something like six thousand,
Speaker 4: So yeah, it was pretty big back then, and they
Speaker 4: I think have transcendent appeal. They people do like to
Speaker 4: you know, Like obviously when I saw these images, when
Speaker 4: I started looking at the whole book and seeing all
Speaker 4: these emblems, it was obvious that there were so many
Speaker 4: that related to the taro and the traditional sort of
Speaker 4: rightaway smith or even some of them might say, you know,
Speaker 4: like so there's like the key, the cross key that
Speaker 4: made sense for the heerophont, you know, there was a
Speaker 4: line with a sword that was obviously like perfect for
Speaker 4: the string card. But more than obvious was there was
Speaker 4: so many that that typical right away smith like arm
Speaker 4: holding a sword, or a wand or a chalice, or
Speaker 4: even a pentacle coming out of a cloud that is
Speaker 4: the ace of swords, wands, pentacles, and cups. You know.
Speaker 4: So it just it made sense to bring these and
Speaker 4: kind of revivify them and bring them out into the
Speaker 4: world in a unique and different way and have them
Speaker 4: be attached to not only their mottos that are on
Speaker 4: the cards, but also write interpretations of them based on
Speaker 4: their like the inscriptio and the subscriptio of the what
Speaker 4: was called the pictora the emblem. And yeah, I think
Speaker 4: they're pretty magical.
Speaker 2: Is it all right?
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, because they did send me your other deck, was
Speaker 3: it all right? Maybe I showed some of the images
Speaker 3: of the Tarot camera just sure, yeah, because I think
Speaker 3: some of this stuff is amazing. We have the full
Speaker 3: card and the Magician car and the Horrofin.
Speaker 2: So I like changes m one thing I did want
Speaker 2: to ask you.
Speaker 3: I guess since I'm looking at it now, it reminded
Speaker 3: me what was it that made you want to add
Speaker 3: those extra cards?
Speaker 4: Because there were so many great images and I didn't
Speaker 4: want to stop, and also because me, yeah, because I'm
Speaker 4: not much. I guess I'm getting a little more into
Speaker 4: it now. But I haven't always been really like big
Speaker 4: on Oracle decks. But it was fun to I think
Speaker 4: i'd gotten like the Pig in Other Worlds years ago,
Speaker 4: and I was like, they had that extra card and
Speaker 4: at the end, and I was like, oh, I'll do one.
Speaker 4: And so I did that one, the visionary one that
Speaker 4: you just showed as like a Irania Press last card
Speaker 4: for my indie deck. It actually has information on it
Speaker 4: written on it for you know, like you're on your press.
Speaker 4: But anyway, so yeah, I just like want to keep
Speaker 4: doing more, but also it's fun to have a few
Speaker 4: oracle cards in there and they make statements on their own.
Speaker 2: This is pretty cool.
Speaker 4: In fact, I could have done an entire oracle deck
Speaker 4: for more of Raydon's work, but someone has already done that.
Speaker 2: Always give people that idea what it looks like.
Speaker 1: In Yeah, it's got such like a haunting, beautiful aesthetic
Speaker 1: to it that is like with the light in the dark,
Speaker 1: it's got such like a phenomenological experience of how it
Speaker 1: makes you feel.
Speaker 3: Not that I know the way I explained it probably
Speaker 3: like I wasn't knocking it, but I think yesterday when
Speaker 3: I mentioned that we're going to where we're going to
Speaker 3: go live, which is no big deal, I was promoting
Speaker 3: the show already and I said, he know, this art
Speaker 3: is pretty sick. I said, it reminded me of that
Speaker 3: book if people remember more scary stories to tell in
Speaker 3: the dark scary that show was always creepy to me,
Speaker 3: and I was like, Yo, this art is sick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's the sublime and the surreal extend outside
Speaker 1: of our normal rational mind state. And so it's like
Speaker 1: when the shadows start to creep with the lights, you
Speaker 1: see all kinds of different ghosts like apparatuses, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like on the back of the this deck from Wiser,
Speaker 4: I give a quote from right down which was like
Speaker 4: that his imagery places quote the logic of the visible
Speaker 4: at the service of the invisible, and that I think
Speaker 4: is a really good one for his work, because the invisible,
Speaker 4: the noetic, the phenomenal, you know, it comes out in
Speaker 4: that work. It's clear to me then he was connected to.
Speaker 8: Spirits, oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, because it veers.
Speaker 1: What's interesting is how the aesthetic can still be sublime
Speaker 1: and beautiful and veer towards the grotesque. And I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people forget how the grotesque is something
Speaker 1: that is kind of mind bending and also interacts with
Speaker 1: your gut when you have certain experiences, and it's most
Speaker 1: of those experiences that are most paradigmatic or paradigm shifting
Speaker 1: for our consciousness.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that the chimera and the hybrid
Speaker 4: creature I think is important as a symbolic image to
Speaker 4: not forget because we have, you know, with too much
Speaker 4: New Age stuff, just go too much into the light,
Speaker 4: you know, and we've got to continue to be haunted
Speaker 4: by weird and uncanny, ununcanny you.
Speaker 8: Know, Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 4: It helps us to think deeper about ourselves and relation
Speaker 4: to others, you know, and relationship spirit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and totally understand the monster aspect of the human
Speaker 1: consciousness of person, of our personhood. It's it's it's fat,
Speaker 1: it's like we Yeah, exam, I completely agree on how
Speaker 1: the New Age thing wants to be like love and
Speaker 1: light and it's all angels and what it's like. Actually,
Speaker 1: most of our mind is always taken up with the
Speaker 1: haunting and the emotional.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean it pisses me off in a
Speaker 4: lot of ways, that whole kind of angels as you know,
Speaker 4: something derogatory because angels originally even were like considered so
Speaker 4: frightening and so scary, you know, like and they were
Speaker 4: depicted as wheels with hundreds of eyes and you know,
Speaker 4: it's just bizarre. So yeah, I mean, the angelic everything
Speaker 4: to me when it comes to all of this work,
Speaker 4: and also just my spiritual path is about entity, deity, spirit,
Speaker 4: diamond and that connection and that guidance. So whether it
Speaker 4: be angel or whatever.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people forget kind of exactly what you just said
Speaker 1: is people forget that if you were to witness a
Speaker 1: god's true form or an angel's true form, it would
Speaker 1: destroy you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean that, you know, Gustav Moreau painting
Speaker 4: of Zeus with is it Somale, you know, like she
Speaker 4: just like disintegrated because he had to show her his
Speaker 4: true form because she was tricked by Harah. But yeah,
Speaker 4: so that's an amazing painting and a great story. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I think that I think that we could probably yeah,
Speaker 4: never truly see them. But that's why we have symbols
Speaker 4: and all of this art, you know, And that's what
Speaker 4: really pisses me off about, like the Reformation and all
Speaker 4: of that was you know, iconoclasm and like you know,
Speaker 4: smashing the icons and everything, because to me, it's what
Speaker 4: art is all about, is you know, we're as human beings,
Speaker 4: you know, we were I think taught by the angels
Speaker 4: this stuff, you know, and I think it's important, even
Speaker 4: if it's a fallen thing, it's a really creative and
Speaker 4: good thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice leads back into like what we were talking
Speaker 1: about for about Scarlet imprint and what Peter Greve was
Speaker 1: trying to get at with is Lucifer Praxis is so good,
Speaker 1: which is a brilliant Yeah, they're brilliant. And it's the
Speaker 1: idea of like the magic and the mysticism was taught
Speaker 1: to us by those fallen angels and how that has
Speaker 1: moved through it And if you are a magician or
Speaker 1: a mystic or somebody you know, we are the rebels
Speaker 1: exploring the unconscious realms of not only the world, but
Speaker 1: the world that is the fantasmical. We like going outside
Speaker 1: into the dark with little flashlights and look, and the
Speaker 1: flashlight is what creates then kind of like images that
Speaker 1: you're putting into that deck.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why I'm really into Prometheus because of the
Speaker 4: idea of like, you know, like in ways like what
Speaker 4: the angels did, he fell, you know what I mean
Speaker 4: and brought the lights you know.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I love for me this too.
Speaker 7: And I just want to challenge Brandon and say that
Speaker 7: you're not you're you're you're not against the you're pro
Speaker 7: ARCon If you are not a little.
Speaker 6: Bit of chaos, No, for sure.
Speaker 7: So you have to That's why we have to have
Speaker 7: those like uh, you know, wild and weird syncretic elements
Speaker 7: to sort of like you know, rock and roll. We
Speaker 7: don't want to keep the heavens the same we want
Speaker 7: to like bring the light down here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, said no, I completely agree, and I'm definitely pro ARCon.
Speaker 8: It's such a fascinating world.
Speaker 1: What's happened in the taking of the gnostic or understandings
Speaker 1: of even what an ARCon is and how we like
Speaker 1: epitomize it up and then we want to always destroy them.
Speaker 8: But I actually said it really nicely.
Speaker 1: I think it was in your guys' conversation with him
Speaker 1: and Jamie Paul Lamb and talking about how these arcons
Speaker 1: are actually gatekeepers or guardians of certain levels of consciousness
Speaker 1: as we reach paradigmatic movements in our own like ascent
Speaker 1: towards the stars.
Speaker 7: That's an interesting Hellenic way that I strongly disagree, And
Speaker 7: I told that I disagree with that. That's not that's
Speaker 7: not a tontric way. That's not a good way to
Speaker 7: describe it, right, of course, you know, it's it's one way.
Speaker 7: It's an interesting way that I've heard people from that
Speaker 7: system describe it. And you know, I'm more about like,
Speaker 7: I think the arcons are sort of our fears and projections,
Speaker 7: our klipas, our aggregations. I think that's what more it's about.
Speaker 7: So I think if we want to behead them. I
Speaker 7: think that that's totally okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's important as well, which is why
Speaker 1: the rebel nature kind of comes out and probably why
Speaker 1: we agree on such so much is that they're important
Speaker 1: to stand. It's like, what are we but representations of
Speaker 1: exactly the fears that we project outward?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would like to. I've been putting on the
Speaker 4: back burner a book that would explore further about my
Speaker 4: conceptions of arkans, which so I'm not going to get
Speaker 4: into that right now because that's like for the back burner,
Speaker 4: but for kind of like me trying to understand why
Speaker 4: the world is so fucked up and why there's so
Speaker 4: much evil and how like. So this research would include
Speaker 4: everything and anything to do with fallen angels, arcons, Sophia, wisdom,
Speaker 4: primordial man, and then how you know, like like before
Speaker 4: the flood, and to understand if there was a golden age,
Speaker 4: how that golden age could come back into play, and
Speaker 4: what we could do now to kind of like take
Speaker 4: steps towards it.
Speaker 8: Long you know, they your.
Speaker 6: Own mind number and that's the number, and that's we're
Speaker 6: in a silver age. Natassia that's how I've positive day.
Speaker 7: So we're in a silver age, So this is a
Speaker 7: time to cultivate your own mind, cultivate your psychic powers,
Speaker 7: if you want to call it that. Yeah, that's how
Speaker 7: you move the age forward. The age moves forward whether
Speaker 7: we know it or not, whether we're reception or not,
Speaker 7: the AONs continue the wheel moves, so we have to
Speaker 7: be in perception of it and then also enact those
Speaker 7: things that are aonic, those things that those archetypal things
Speaker 7: that will help us move through.
Speaker 6: That's kind of a neo gnostic way to think of it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1: That's the self mythologizing understand how embodiment and practice and
Speaker 1: interact in the world. It's not so much going out
Speaker 1: in the world and trying to do things, but it's
Speaker 1: like sitting down with your own reflections and contemplations and
Speaker 1: at the same time try to like like harmonize with
Speaker 1: the inner like king, queen, lover, warrior, magician, poet, type
Speaker 1: of personas that are continually interacting through the cards themselves,
Speaker 1: it seems like.
Speaker 4: But also like you know, that's why I'm writing that
Speaker 4: book on synthemonton Symbola, because I feel like we are
Speaker 4: not alone. We have the gods trying to tell us
Speaker 4: this stuff day and night, and they maybe even like
Speaker 4: you could say, angelic intelligences in the diamond day and night,
Speaker 4: every day of the week, every hour, you know, and
Speaker 4: they're just there and ancestors and we're not alone and
Speaker 4: trying to figure out this stuff. And so yeah, you
Speaker 4: need quietude, you need self reflection in order to hear
Speaker 4: what they're trying to say and interpret it or you know,
Speaker 4: if not hear it. Because I'm a Claire audience. That's
Speaker 4: the only Claire Well. I mean, I think I'm quite intuitive,
Speaker 4: but I'm definitely Claire audience. So I actually do when
Speaker 4: I sit and meditate, have voices come through, but not
Speaker 4: very often. But when they do, it's like, oh my god.
Speaker 4: You know, sometimes there's one that literally screams like it's
Speaker 4: like this thunderous voice, and that might, you know, suddenly
Speaker 4: make me sound kind of crazy, but no, it's nothing
Speaker 4: like that for crazy.
Speaker 2: Totally safe.
Speaker 8: This is a safe space.
Speaker 4: Definitely. You guys are the others finding the others. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I think that we're not alone in trying to figure
Speaker 4: out all this stuff, and so there you know, there
Speaker 4: are ways to interpret it through just connection to spirit.
Speaker 1: What's fascinating is I was just thinking about it because
Speaker 1: right now, I'm an anime nerd. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you know that, but I'm an anime nerd, and I
Speaker 1: there's an anime out there called JJK, and there's these
Speaker 1: cursed spirits in JJK. But what some of the and
Speaker 1: it made me think of it because of what Jin
Speaker 1: said is that we're trying to cultivate our own internal
Speaker 1: power to be able to move through the world. That
Speaker 1: kind of thing, and those some of those images that
Speaker 1: you've put into that last tarot deck we were looking
Speaker 1: at to actually look like something like they call shikagami,
Speaker 1: and it's some of those characters have the ability to
Speaker 1: take in these like cursed spirits that have a negative
Speaker 1: connotation but use them for positive light air like positivity
Speaker 1: in battle. And so in a lot of anime, it's
Speaker 1: like you're always battling the evil doers. But if you
Speaker 1: take that and you like like personalize that, it's like,
Speaker 1: how can I use these cursed spirits right? And I
Speaker 1: don't want to like interact and like make it seem
Speaker 1: like I'm talking about like the gatia or something like that.
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, it sounds me memoric,
Speaker 4: but with the binding, you know, the demon and the only.
Speaker 1: Reason I wasn't wanting to link it to that was
Speaker 1: just because it's got such awful connotations at times in
Speaker 1: different things.
Speaker 8: But that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1: You're binding these spirits, and certain families and lineages have
Speaker 1: the ability to use these cursed techniques to be able
Speaker 1: to bind them and then use them at their will.
Speaker 1: And then interesting enough, if they're destroyed in battle, they're
Speaker 1: actually like completely destroyed in that.
Speaker 8: But it's uh, it's an.
Speaker 1: Interesting how to you is like modern myths, like I
Speaker 1: would call a lot of these like things that are
Speaker 1: coming out in the anime world, comic book world and
Speaker 1: those different things for positive reinforcement of understanding your interfeers,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think what's cool about the decks
Speaker 1: that you're producing is that then you are able to
Speaker 1: put them illustrating something that most people will never see,
Speaker 1: like you know, like the rodin work and these different things,
Speaker 1: and now they are out in the social cultural area
Speaker 1: where you can just buy them and then play with
Speaker 1: them and then have a conversation with them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that this ended up being a mass
Speaker 4: market deck just because you know, it's it's wonderful to like,
Speaker 4: because I loved it as a more indie esoteric feel
Speaker 4: when I created it. But to think that they wanted
Speaker 4: to put that out there mass market was exceptionally cool
Speaker 4: because they're dark and I love dark stuff. You know,
Speaker 4: it's uh, it's gonna be it's dark but in lightning
Speaker 4: at the same time it let's that like that change,
Speaker 4: you know, that's that's a little chink that lights. Let's
Speaker 4: the light in you know. That's what these images are
Speaker 4: for me. Yeah, in a lot of ways.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 3: Uh, Gin or Matt, did you guys have any else
Speaker 3: that you wanted to ask to talk about? All Right,
Speaker 3: we're almost at an hour and a half. I think
Speaker 3: maybe we could wrap it up here. Is there anything
Speaker 3: Antashia that you wanted to add or say before you
Speaker 3: know about your deck or anything before Let's see.
Speaker 4: Well, right now, the Sublime Thresholds Tarot is just in
Speaker 4: its second printing and so that's still like available as
Speaker 4: a late pledge on Kickstarter or for Etsy pre order,
Speaker 4: But otherwise I think we've kind of gone into like
Speaker 4: what I've put out there a few of them anyway,
Speaker 4: and I would love it if people wanted to check
Speaker 4: me out on Instagram and see more of what I do.
Speaker 4: I will put that in the show notes, right And
Speaker 4: I think all of you it's been really fun exploration
Speaker 4: and it's great to see you. And yeah, I hope
Speaker 4: we can go further down the road sometime. I'm going
Speaker 4: to be putting that some Fematon sim Bola book out
Speaker 4: at some point, so yeah, maybe we can get together again.
Speaker 3: Oh no, definitely, I would like to definitely have another
Speaker 3: conversation with you in the future, even I mean, I
Speaker 3: know we kind of talked about it a little bit now,
Speaker 3: but even in the future, if you wanted to come
Speaker 3: back for the deck that they did some me, we
Speaker 3: could go a little bit more into that actually, so
Speaker 3: that's always a possibility. But yeah, sure, definitely, will definitely
Speaker 3: keep in touch. Thank you very much for coming on.
Speaker 3: That really was an awesome chat. I really had a
Speaker 3: lot of fun. It was very interesting. Again, I'm not
Speaker 3: too much into taro, so it was nice like hearing
Speaker 3: your take on it and stuff.
Speaker 4: Appreciate it so much.
Speaker 3: Yes, And before we wrap it up, I guess we'll
Speaker 3: have everybody real quick. Just plug this stuff again. Judith,
Speaker 3: if you're there, would you like to plug your show.
Speaker 8: I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 5: Patasha, it was very nice meeting you and hearing your
Speaker 5: perspective on the Taro. It was very enlightening for me.
Speaker 5: You could catch me on the Loon on YouTube and
Speaker 5: on x as the Loon. Thank you very much again
Speaker 5: for having me.
Speaker 2: Of course it is no thank you for coming on
Speaker 2: and we got Gin the Ninja Friday. Gin.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Boss. Well, I'll just say thank
Speaker 6: you so much. To Talkia.
Speaker 7: It was awesome, was I You know, it's cool to
Speaker 7: because even though I said I wasn't into taro and
Speaker 7: I'm not really, it does. Actually it's good for me
Speaker 7: to hear people like you who aren't so fixed to
Speaker 7: the traditional systems, is what I also think what Nick
Speaker 7: was saying, So they can actually you can think expansively
Speaker 7: about it and you can be like, yeah, okay, maybe
Speaker 7: I'm not that great at it, maybe I don't know
Speaker 7: that much about it, but there's nothing wrong with playing
Speaker 7: with the dak. There is nothing wrong with seeing how
Speaker 7: the archetypes fit or what you sort of attribute to
Speaker 7: the traditional depictions.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that's super important. Thank you.
Speaker 7: No, so that definitely that definitely shook me up. So
Speaker 7: thank you so much, appreciate that. And then of course.
Speaker 6: I what do I do?
Speaker 7: Okay, So I have Threshold Saints. You can check that
Speaker 7: out Spotify and Apple. Two episodes with Satschke, who is
Speaker 7: he developed a quantum crystal computer based on nineties technology,
Speaker 7: so it's very exciting, uh time. And he's a cabalist
Speaker 7: and a musician and artist and a true anime nerd.
Speaker 7: And we talked about everything from like guns to gunplot
Speaker 7: to everything. So basically you can check those out. That'll
Speaker 7: be dropping next week and then we'll have a we'll
Speaker 7: probably have a grey Lodge again. We just had one,
Speaker 7: but we'll probably have one this coming Friday as well.
Speaker 7: Even if it's just me or just me and Matt
Speaker 7: or just me and Joshua or whomever, it'll be cool.
Speaker 7: And so thank you, Thank you guys. And I always
Speaker 7: appreciate doing these roundtables. I think it's really fun and expansive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely definitely had a good time. And Matt, real quick,
Speaker 3: I know you got a bounce. I just realized that
Speaker 3: now because it's perfect time up.
Speaker 10: Yes, so Natasia, very nice to meet you, very nice
Speaker 10: to hear from your perspectives and as always I love
Speaker 10: talking about carrot, so it was really fun. And yeah,
Speaker 10: you can always find me as at Medmore nineteen on
Speaker 10: all socials. That's going to be x, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Telegram,
Speaker 10: which maybe some other place. There's also my website that's
Speaker 10: going to be Cabala dot com k A A B
Speaker 10: A L A h dot com. You can find out
Speaker 10: what I do, their services, apps, anything else. Also, you
Speaker 10: can just chat with me through the website. Now there's
Speaker 10: a little pop up thing. It reaches my DM so
Speaker 10: I can answer pretty quickly actually, so anythink just let
Speaker 10: me know through there or through the other websites.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Matt.
Speaker 3: I always appreciate you jumping on the show and let's
Speaker 3: been not at least Brandon, please let everyone know what's up.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Nick, thank you for always having me on. Nick,
Speaker 1: I truly appreciate it. To this place is amazing, a
Speaker 1: round table of like minds and also minds that are different,
Speaker 1: which is then how you actually can move the needle
Speaker 1: a little bit in this strange world. And Tashia it
Speaker 1: was amazing to meet you. Yeah, I'm your work and
Speaker 1: putting these things out here. I think it's a net
Speaker 1: positive for the community as well as the world.
Speaker 4: So much appreciated. Thanks Brandon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course it's fantastic and good luck continuing that
Speaker 1: and everyone out there. When you listen to this, make
Speaker 1: sure you after this, after looking through all the beautiful
Speaker 1: things that Nick has produced in Occult Rejects, make sure
Speaker 1: to head on over to magas in the media where
Speaker 1: we break down all of the things that need to
Speaker 1: be broken down in such a beautiful way of the
Speaker 1: so tek mythological and philosophical.
Speaker 8: I've got all the stuff, So go.
Speaker 1: To your tiktoks and your ex's and your eg or
Speaker 1: ig or Instagram's or whatever it is, and we're trying
Speaker 1: to do the thing. Thank you so much for this
Speaker 1: beautiful moment.
Speaker 2: Of course, thank you, man. I gotta I gotta definitely
Speaker 2: leave you for the last guy. Now, well, that was amazing.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 3: You promoted my stuff more than I do. Thanks Natasha,
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming on again. Like I
Speaker 3: really had a good time. It was awesome talk and
Speaker 3: I really hopefully we.
Speaker 2: Have more in the future.
Speaker 3: And uh, I guess that is the end of another
Speaker 3: recall reject and until the next one, everybody be well later,
Speaker 3: thank you.