WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.839 You see, something's going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:25.519 What's going to happen? What a right? Welcome to the 3 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:26.640 Occult Rejects. 4 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.559 Today's episode, we got a very special guest, somebody I 5 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:31.679 was very excited to come on the show to talk 6 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:32.240 about Taro. 7 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:33.479 You all know I love Taro. 8 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:37.359 But before we introduce Natasia Roland, let's introduce the other 9 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:38.200 rejects on the show. 10 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:42.240 And first we got the loon, Judith. What is going on? Judith? 11 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:42.840 How are you? 12 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:44.640 I am the loon? 13 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:48.520 You could catch me on the loan on YouTube and 14 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:51.679 on as a loon on X and I do the 15 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.159 weekly brunch and once a month to buddy check, and 16 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.520 I try to focus on self in our self development. 17 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:01.159 Awesome, thank you so much. I reallyppreciate you making it today. 18 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:03.880 And Jin the Ninja, what is going on? 19 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:04.120 Sir? 20 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.439 How will you? Well? Thank you? 21 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:10.200 What's up us? Mister ninety three. I'm really excited to 22 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:12.560 be here. I'm not a tarot guy. Just let me 23 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:16.959 say that everything I know is newer. Although I've been technically, 24 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:18.879 I've been doing it since I was fourteen, Like I've 25 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:21.280 had a toath deck for all that time. And you 26 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:24.719 know I'm grown in age now so I should know something, 27 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:26.079 but I don't really know anything. 28 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:27.040 But that's okay. 29 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:30.159 But if you're interested in following me, you can follow 30 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:33.439 me right now at the show account at Threshold Saints 31 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:36.680 both on ig and Twitter. Yes, my personal account is 32 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:40.200 just temporarily we're saving a little hiatus, but you can 33 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:43.239 also catch us on Threshold Saints at substack dot com 34 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.000 as well as The True Gray Lodge, of which Matt 35 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.560 mur is our webmaster and our YouTube coordinator of course, 36 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.680 so are the True Gray Lodge with a v t 37 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:54.879 r VE and you can look at all of our 38 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:58.319 episodes with each other and that we do. 39 00:01:58.319 --> 00:01:59.000 As a group. 40 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.519 And so we just did a great episode on the 41 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:07.040 relatives of apocalypse, so indigenous ways of relating in an 42 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.400 apocalyptic time, so kind of cool, kind of different for us, 43 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:11.479 but I think it went well. 44 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:13.400 People said they loved it. So that was our latest 45 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.199 episode and then I had next week. 46 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.919 I have Saschke, who is a physicist, a cabalist, a 47 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:21.560 rock and roller. Well he says he's a rock star, 48 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:23.759 so I'll go with that. But he's kind of like 49 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.360 he's a magician for the New Aon so he is 50 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:29.080 kind of wild and you hear us in conversation for 51 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.800 like eight hours. I cut it up so it's different episodes, 52 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:33.719 but I thought the first part of that will be 53 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:35.800 coming up next week. 54 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:37.759 So thank you guys so much. Appreciate it. 55 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:40.639 Thank you very much, Jan and I wouldn't feel too bad. 56 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:42.439 I probably have about four tower decks and I really 57 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:44.439 don't know anything about it unless I attribute it to 58 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.199 the coubalistictory of life, Like that's the only. 59 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:51.199 Way it says anything to me. So I get it. Uh, Brandon, 60 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:53.639 magis in the media. What is going on? Sir? 61 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:57.879 Sup there? Everyone? Thank you for having me on again. 62 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:00.759 Nick has always loved coming on being one of the 63 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.120 rejects of the old cult. 64 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:02.960 It's beautiful. 65 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.840 Nice I am Brandon, right, this is Magas in the media. 66 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:08.919 That's where everyone should go to. 67 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.280 This is actually the ocult rejects Magas and the media 68 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:14.879 integrates with it. Please everyone, just go check out all 69 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.560 the things that I've been doing. It's on YouTube that's 70 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:19.879 the biggest channel. And then x is where I get 71 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.080 to just kind of flippantly talk shit to all the 72 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:24.800 non fensical people out there, as well as Instagram to 73 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:27.120 drop all my shorts and reels and then TikTok. 74 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:29.560 It's a dying app, but we use it anyway, so. 75 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.840 We as in me breaks down media of all kinds, film, anime, literature, 76 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:39.840 comic books, through the esoteric, mythological everything that comes. 77 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:41.840 Out of my brain. And I love everyone on here. 78 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:48.199 I'm so excited to talk to Natashia, Natsia, Natasia Roland. 79 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.719 It's going to be a great day. Tarot is amazing, 80 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:52.479 so of course let's see. 81 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:54.719 Let's do it all right, Thank you very much so 82 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:56.280 I appreciate it. 83 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.719 And last but not least, my man Matt Moore, what 84 00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.240 is going on? 85 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.719 So sub how's it going? 86 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:05.000 So very glad to be here. 87 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.039 Shame you can't join the last two episodes, but always 88 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:10.680 nice to hear them as well, the super nice here 89 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:11.199 hearing them. 90 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:12.719 I'm Metmaura. 91 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.680 You can always find me as at Metmoora nineteen on 92 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:20.800 all socials. That's going to be Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, which 93 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:24.720 maybe some Instagram, in some other place like Telegram or whatever. 94 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.639 You can always find me there. I do enjoy terrat 95 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.800 very much. I had the seventy two weeks experiment that 96 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:34.240 I posted on x. It's also my website, which is 97 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.399 Kabala dot com k A A B A L A 98 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:38.839 h dot com. 99 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:40.519 So that's what I like to do. 100 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.240 I like to use kabala, not the Jewish one, not 101 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.040 a harmedic one, not against any of those, but just 102 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.839 people get that on fields out the time. But I 103 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:52.720 like to connect that with tark, with astrology, with neurology, 104 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.600 with other sciences, and it's just so cool. So it's 105 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.360 awesome to be here talking about it with someone who 106 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.920 just released pax or it's going to release a Tara deck. 107 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:06.600 In the future, so that's going to. 108 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:10.079 Thank you very much, so I appreciate you making it. 109 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:14.639 And finally, Natasia Rowland, thank you very much for making 110 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:17.680 it on And yes she has. She's the founder of 111 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:20.800 Urania Press. She's an which is an ESO terror publishing 112 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:24.519 studio where poetry, myth and divination come together. Natasia is 113 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:27.120 a writer and independent researcher with a background in book 114 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.079 arts and design, and she's been a. 115 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.079 Tower reader for decades. 116 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:33.279 Today we'll be talking about her Emblemata Tarot deck, and 117 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.240 we'll also touch on a little bit and promote a 118 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:38.879 little bit about her Taro Chaimera. That Wiser was so 119 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:40.759 nice enough to send me a free copy of even 120 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:44.720 though we weren't talking about that today. So, uh, Natasia, 121 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:46.879 anything that I left out that you would like to 122 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.639 promote or plug, please let everybody know where they can 123 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:51.959 find you when you're amazing tarot decks and anything else 124 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:53.560 you'd like to show people. 125 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.519 Thank you. It's great to be here and good to 126 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.360 know you all. Let's see. So, yes, I started did 127 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:05.240 Urania Press in twenty twenty, right during the pandemic, and 128 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:09.920 since then, I guess it's been what five going on 129 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:14.439 six years. I've created nine decks, So some of them 130 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.879 are you know, like just stayed indie decks with Urania 131 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:22.160 Press that I had funded through Kickstarter campaigns and got 132 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.160 to have you know, like followers that way, and so 133 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:27.879 that decks were being promoted, and then you know, like 134 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.439 each new campaign that I did, I had you know, 135 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:34.319 people from before, and so it kind of rolled. And yeah, 136 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:37.160 now I've got nine decks out there, and three of 137 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.360 them have been taken on by the publishers Wiser as 138 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:44.720 you mentioned. The first one they put out was my 139 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:50.439 Tarot Emblematic, which I my indie deck was called Chromata, 140 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:56.560 which was a colorized version of the Claude Paradin devices 141 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:01.240 and emblems, and then after that, actually no, I'm sorry. 142 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:05.160 They did star Loar ar Kana first, which is an 143 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:09.519 antique deck of constellations, and then they did the emblemata 144 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:14.800 and now February second they're releasing Taro Kaimera, which was 145 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.720 my first indie deck that I published with Urania Press, 146 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.519 and that's the noir art of the symbolist artist Odolon Raida. 147 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:29.879 And you can find me at Uraniapress dot com. I'm 148 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:37.079 on Instagram, Natasia Underscore Roland or Uranya Underscore Press. And 149 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:40.120 then I also have a blog, but I don't get 150 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.040 up to date, so sorry about that. But there's some 151 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.800 bits and pieces on there, and that's that's a square 152 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.399 space synthemata ensembola. 153 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:53.920 Well make sure if you want after the show, I 154 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:55.240 can send you all those links and I'll make sure 155 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:55.839 they're in the show. 156 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:57.879 Yeah, that would be great. Up with the notes in. 157 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:02.360 Uh, thank you very much again for coming on. Like 158 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:04.720 I ask, I guess every guest that comes on for 159 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:08.240 the Occult, which is pretty much all of them, what 160 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:08.600 was it? 161 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:09.759 I guess? So when was it? 162 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:09.879 Like? 163 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:11.279 When did you know like this is what I was 164 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:12.839 going to get into? You know, how did you end 165 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:14.720 up getting yourself into this, I guess life. 166 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.040 Yeah. I think it's kind of an interesting trajectory of 167 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:21.439 experience really, because I was sort of what I consider 168 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:25.600 heavily steeped in my early twenties and then my thirties 169 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.920 and forties, I got into motherhood and more sort of 170 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.679 arts and crafts and kind of like let a lot 171 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:38.000 of my earlier interests and obsessions lay low and can't 172 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:41.200 really explain why, except for I really did enjoy being 173 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:45.320 and I have two daughters. So but yeah, So in 174 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:51.799 my early twenties, I find that Odelan Raydon, actually that 175 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:55.879 artist inspires me so much because his work that I 176 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.039 saw when I was in art school in the nineties 177 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.480 made such an impression on me because it had a 178 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.960 dark flavor and because it was so spirited and it 179 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.679 seemed like it was full of the numinous experience, you know. 180 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.919 And so I found that I was really drawn as 181 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.759 far as esotericism goes, like the flavors of it came 182 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:20.039 out through my interest in art. So like dark art, 183 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.559 you know, and symbolist artwork in particular, and like the 184 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:25.840 even sort of the pre Raphaelites to some extent, just 185 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.159 because they were hearkening back to you know, myths and 186 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:34.799 archaic times and classical times, and so really like what 187 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.240 embodies to esoteric for me in a lot of ways 188 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:46.000 has to do with myth and archetypes and imagery. And 189 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.840 then obviously, you know, like when you look at say 190 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.360 symbolist or even pre Raphaelite artwork, there's a sense of 191 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.240 the magic in that, right, and so it's like, you know, 192 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:03.919 the combined of imagery. And then like a lot of 193 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.559 symbolist artists were also writers, and they were pretty decadent, 194 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:13.440 and so I got into that sort of era, the 195 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:18.120 symbolest era with art, which I could just you know, 196 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.159 like even when I studied them a little bit by 197 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:21.679 reading some of the books, you know, because I worked 198 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:24.000 at the library and art school, like I could tell 199 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.320 that they were, you know, they weren't like out and 200 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:28.879 out saying, they were like, you know, into the esoteric, 201 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.559 but they were obviously inspired by it. You know. So 202 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.000 magic and mysticism has always been a part of my life. 203 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.759 I've always been drawn to it. But as I said, so, 204 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.840 like in my early twenties, I lived in Ireland for 205 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:46.039 three years and I spent a lot of time reading 206 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.639 tarot and just you know, keeping journals of all my 207 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:55.440 taro journeys and spreads. And then I felt the need 208 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:59.879 and desire to get into like a master's program to 209 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:02.240 express myself a bit more. And I was really into 210 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.399 book arts and poetry and wanted to combine my interests 211 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:09.600 in art and writing. So I moved back to the 212 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:15.440 States and did a interdisciplinary kind of degree, and in 213 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.799 that I was able to combine, yeah, like art and poetry. 214 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:24.440 So I did a printmaking studio and then made artist 215 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.480 books with poetry, and I would say a lot of 216 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:31.559 that work had like a mystical flavor. So long story short, 217 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:33.960 I feel like I've always been sort of a mystic 218 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:39.759 person and into the metaphysical, and a lot of it 219 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:43.279 came from poetry and art for me. And then I 220 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.000 kind of shied away from like some of the real 221 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.279 you could say, like fan or trends of you know, 222 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.759 like witchcraft and things like that. But when the whole 223 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.919 time I was in Ireland, I was doing like hedge 224 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:58.080 witch stuff and you know, like little spells and things. 225 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.120 But I didn't really get. 226 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:05.120 Sort of steeped in magic per se until my late forties. 227 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:10.960 And so, like I said, in between twenties and late forties, 228 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.600 I had children, so that took up a lot of 229 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.519 my life, just kind of making their lives enchanted. And 230 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:21.600 I did some craft businesses just kind of make some money. 231 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.159 And how Taro came about as far as publishing goes, 232 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.840 was when COVID struck my full time job. I was 233 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.600 let go, like a lot of people were laid off, 234 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.200 and I was able to get unemployment, so I was 235 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.919 supported and I was at home. And I've told this 236 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.440 story before if anyone's heard any of my interviews. But 237 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:46.279 I was looking through an old book where I had 238 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.919 xerox to a bunch of artwork from my early twenties, 239 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.000 like when I was working in the library at art school, 240 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.600 and like just kind of scamping, not all kinds of imagery, 241 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:56.559 probably even some stolen books, I don't know, but anyway, 242 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:58.840 I had like cut and pasted all kinds of great 243 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.799 stuff into this journal. And I saw this Odelon Raidon 244 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.000 image that just made me think, Wow, that would make 245 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:09.559 the like a perfect tower card. And then funny enough, 246 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.559 a friend of mine had sent me a template for 247 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.080 a tarot for creating a tarot deck, and I was 248 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:17.799 thinking I didn't even know you could just do this 249 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.799 just you know, like wing it and make your own deck. 250 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:25.840 And so, because I don't really love to draw or 251 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:30.000 paint myself, I've always been obsessed with like curating images, 252 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:32.879 and a lot of my decks are about that. So 253 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:36.519 they're like finding obscure imagery out there in the public 254 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:41.440 domain and sometimes even antique decks. And because I have 255 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:47.480 like a experience in photoshop where I co taught with 256 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.600 some masters, Photoshop is something I love to work in 257 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:52.320 and I love to kind of like what they call 258 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.360 paint with light and so light and shadow. And so anyway, 259 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:59.279 I was thinking, well, I'm just going to like take 260 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:03.559 odelan radon artwork, and little by little I saw that 261 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.320 they were really corresponding with what would be considered the 262 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:10.159 traditional Rider Waight Smith style, you know. And so I 263 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.559 created that deck and found out about Kickstarter being like 264 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.600 the I don't know, the industry standard for getting you know, 265 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.639 like a funding for something like a deck, and a 266 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.919 lot of people mostly just buy their decks through Kickstarter 267 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.360 nowadays and their indie decks. So that's what I did, 268 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:27.840 and I put that one out and that was the 269 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.600 beginning of it all. 270 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:34.000 That's awesome nice, but yeah. 271 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:36.559 I mean, I know your question was about like esotericism 272 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.120 and magic and all of that, so like I would 273 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.840 say that, you know, it's always been embedded in my spirit, 274 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.840 but I didn't get heavily steeped into ritualizing it and 275 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.639 practicing until my late forties. And that was because I 276 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.759 had a sort of you could say, like I met 277 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.840 some influences that made it all make sense for me 278 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.120 for seeing that it was authentic and just like a fad. 279 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.879 Did you want to assoult to Jim, Yeah, I'm just 280 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:12.440 going to say that I identify with the curation of images 281 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.159 rather than particularly being an art producer on your own, 282 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:17.960 I'm also like that. 283 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:19.320 So I understand. 284 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.279 I wanted to ask you about Urania Press and why 285 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.840 Urania because we, as we've often discussed on the show 286 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:29.440 and my shows and all of the shows that we do, 287 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.559 very broadly is we've called, well at least I call 288 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:35.159 it an of the daughter. So I know Urania as 289 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.600 a daughter, So I just wanted to know if that, like, 290 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:40.080 who is that for you? 291 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.559 And why did you decide to name your press that? 292 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:47.759 Yeah, so, Urania as the amuse when I was looking 293 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:51.600 into her because I had notions that I wanted to 294 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:55.360 do something with astrology. But I'm not a professional astrologer. 295 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.879 I'm an enthusiast and I just kind of studied on 296 00:15:57.879 --> 00:15:59.320 my own, and I look at my chart and I 297 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.799 just deep die. But when I was looking at the muses, 298 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.399 Urania was not only the mus of astronomy, but she's 299 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.440 also like a muse of poetry. I mean, there are 300 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.279 others of poetry, but she also that was also listed 301 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.840 for Urania. And because I'm an Aquarius and I'm you know, 302 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.559 also like Capricorn rising, I have Saturn obviously very heavy 303 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:25.720 in my chart, and Saturn is she's the daughter's so 304 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.440 she's the daughter of Zeus, right, and then of course 305 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.000 the great uh the granddaughter of Saturn and the great 306 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:36.279 granddaughter of Uranus, and Uranus is my ruling planet. So 307 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:38.679 Urania made sense for me, even though I'm not like 308 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.960 a professional astrologer. But I knew that I would be 309 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.159 bringing some decks out of obscurity, like the Starlar Arkana 310 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:48.840 deck came out, and also I did Astronomia, which was 311 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.240 another deck that had to do with like planets and asteroids, 312 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:57.080 and so yeah, I knew I would be publishing some 313 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.200 work in that vein, but not all the work. It 314 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:01.679 doesn't have to really pigeonhole me. 315 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.160 Just a quick follow up. That was great. I agree 316 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:09.039 with all of that. I think it's in a quote 317 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:11.400 unquote aquarium age, so very fitting. 318 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:13.000 But I also. 319 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.880 I wonder if the symbologists, like from an art history perspective, yes, 320 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.839 of course it's not necessarily what you would call metaphysics 321 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.079 per se, but I would I would posit that all 322 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:28.400 the work of a symbologist is basically kabbala, and many 323 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.440 people on this panel would probably agree with me. And 324 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:35.119 so looking at Odeon's work, I just I think that 325 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.200 you're right in seeing that there are correspondences to the 326 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.200 writer Weight deck, because, as Nick said, like for someone 327 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.440 like me who's not a Tarot reader, the deck only 328 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:49.119 makes sense in relationship to the Kobala stick tree because 329 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:53.519 all the cards are supposed to represent paths or pathworkings 330 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:59.000 or suffer atic concepts. So that's where really the images arise. 331 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:02.079 So I also saw it right away just in pre 332 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:07.000 pre recording, because his deck is heavily laid with what 333 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.640 I would call kabalistic themes. Now I'm not expecting you 334 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.240 to call it that, But if you want to like 335 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.559 address that in any way, i'd appreciate it. 336 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:20.359 No, I have not actually looked at that. I haven't. 337 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:22.759 I mean, if anything, it would just be a kind 338 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.319 of synchronous because it all ties in mystically. But I 339 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.960 haven't spent any time with that concept. So sorry about that, 340 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:33.400 But i'd love I mean, if you want to, like, 341 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:35.920 you know, elucidate some more on it, you you know, 342 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:36.559 feel free. 343 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.599 Well, even his concept of the severed head is actually 344 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.720 a symbol of in like that. I'm a Tibetan Buddhist, 345 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:47.960 so I generally use tontric astrology or pyonic stories to 346 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.720 sort of relate metaphysical concepts, but I'm very comfortable using 347 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:57.039 elec tradtional Jewish cabala as well. But one of the 348 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:59.920 ideas of like the Aquarium age and tntra is the 349 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.640 severed head. So there's even a goddess called Chinnamastica. She's 350 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:05.759 she with the severed head. She severs her own head 351 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.400 in fact, but she's kind of the bearer of the 352 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:15.559 Aquarian or the Uranian age. So his work obviously deals 353 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.559 with this figure, the severed head image. And we obviously 354 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:23.119 looked at the magician card pre recording, and there is 355 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:27.759 the skull so very Saturnian, the ruler of bones, the 356 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:31.920 you know, the last density before we lose form. And 357 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:34.359 then there was also a head I believe in the basket. 358 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.160 So it's like both his ego, his physical body and 359 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.480 then what is looking at it. Why I would argue 360 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:43.119 that it's his spiritual self. 361 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.319 Yeah, I love that. I mean it makes me think 362 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.640 of that whole idea of like the disembodied head you 363 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:54.680 know for sure is more about for me like non 364 00:19:55.160 --> 00:20:01.279 materialism and yeah, like that the ability to kind of 365 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:05.160 like take yourself away from the ego and the body 366 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.559 in that regard and do you you know, dive deeper 367 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:15.319 into dreams and the surreal and you know, the imagination. 368 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:20.119 But yeah, I know that's definitely a theme that you 369 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:21.400 see often with his work. 370 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.400 Yeah. 371 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:23.759 Nice. 372 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:26.079 I also want to add or like kind of bring 373 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:28.680 out the idea of the sumvered head in we've maybe 374 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:31.640 heard it from the same thing as like John the Baptist, right, 375 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:36.720 the Gnostics or the Templars were said to have had 376 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.440 the head of John the Baptist, which would mumble out 377 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:43.880 glossialalia to you and if you had the right level 378 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.480 of initiation, you would be able to hear the words 379 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.559 which may stem from and be the similar thing to 380 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:51.400 the Lost Keys of Freemasonry. 381 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:52.240 Interesting enough. 382 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.119 Yeah, and then of course there's the head of Orpheus, 383 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.240 you know, the muse exactly. It's all tied in. I mean, 384 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:06.160 it's certainly archetypal, and the symbolism is definitely broad and 385 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.759 it's great to hear of that Eastern tradition too. 386 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:15.240 With that, do you do you subscribe to like putting 387 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:17.720 the two on the tree of life, because that's something 388 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:18.200 you look at. 389 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.000 Well, you know, it's funny because I think I spread 390 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.640 myself all over the place, and so I've been actually 391 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.759 careful not to go towards Kabbala and I know and 392 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.960 the reason why is because it would just take me 393 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.279 into a deep dive that I have not wanted to do. 394 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:39.119 It's just like I am, I don't know, Like I 395 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.839 there's only so much that I can take on for myself. 396 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:47.759 That is, like you know, Hellenistic household worship, and you know, 397 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:53.759 the myths and mysticisms of you know, like Western esoteric magic. 398 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:57.519 And I know that the Kabbala is huge, but I 399 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:01.279 have just not I have and felt drawn to it 400 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:02.880 because it's going to be too much of a deep 401 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.920 dive for me that I just haven't. Yeah, it just 402 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.920 hasn't drawn me. I know that that's probably crazy to 403 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:11.880 all of you, because I know that I've listened to 404 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.480 some of your podcasts and you definitely go there, but I, yeah, 405 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.319 I haven't, And I think it's just because it's too 406 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.519 much for me to take on. 407 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:24.480 I just want to add a little thing is where 408 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:29.519 it doesn't Actually, I think you would agree that when 409 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:31.640 you tap in, because you're not a dabbler, right, You 410 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:33.880 didn't do these things to dabble. You were tapping into 411 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:38.240 an artistic current. And that artistic current then means that 412 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.039 you are becoming your own magician when you tap into 413 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.519 those things, thus pulling, as Carl Jungs would say, these metaphors, 414 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.799 myths and symbols from the unconscious realms, and so you 415 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.599 didn't need to actually study it per se, but through 416 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.839 your ritual of artistry, you were tapping into a similar 417 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.960 current as then what you're talking about with Odlan, right. 418 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:01.119 Yeah, And I know like you can take the taro 419 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:02.960 and just do any of that with it, you know, 420 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.680 like Damien Iggles has done it. With the angels, you know, 421 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:11.400 and you can just take taro and you can apply 422 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:16.039 any science and any mysticism to it. So that's just 423 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.880 one that I haven't done because, as I said, it's 424 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:21.519 just more of like I realized that it would be 425 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.279 too much of a deep dive for me. That hasn't 426 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.519 felt aligned. But I mean, I'm sure, like you know, 427 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:29.880 you're saying it is aligned, but I haven't felt that 428 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:30.839 it's needed for me. 429 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:31.599 Yeah. 430 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:34.759 Yeah, And only that is aligned in that you're doing 431 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:38.839 what great shaman's magicians mystics have done throughout all of 432 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.440 history instead of having you know, because we live in 433 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:43.720 a strange time where now we have the ability to 434 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:48.160 look up all the different significances and attributes and see 435 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.319 how they align from what the Golden Dawn did with 436 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:53.880 hermetic kabbala and adding it all together. But for a 437 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:57.720 long time, everyone was so scattered and across the globe, 438 00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:59.599 so you didn't actually have the ability to maybe read 439 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:01.519 from all the great libraries as we do today. 440 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.519 So it's kind of you're taking on that current without 441 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:05.039 you know. 442 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.039 Yeah, And I mean in my early twenties, that was 443 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.200 the thing, like I saw the Tree of Life and 444 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.759 I wanted to dabble in it, and then I realized, like, no, 445 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:13.920 I don't want to just. 446 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.319 Yeah exactly that. 447 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:22.680 Yeah, starting I'm curious not to say it. 448 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.559 Since you like the Greek mythology and tarrot, have you 449 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:31.400 ever used or encountered the mystic from I have seen. 450 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.440 It online and actually, yeah, that's one that I have 451 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:36.200 on my list, but I haven't you know, I don't 452 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:36.559 own it. 453 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.880 You you should take a look at It's very nice. 454 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.480 I think that's that deck particularly, I have heard people 455 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:46.799 say is just like their kind of standard deck. So yeah, 456 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:47.799 some people yeah. 457 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:49.480 For reading that the one I used the most because 458 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:52.680 it's just so easy, especially on the West, since people 459 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.000 know the Greek stories amidst explained stuff through the just 460 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:00.319 like the imagery and themology, and it's nice. They all 461 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:06.759 connected one and all the minor arkin are also from myths, 462 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:09.880 so like the cup are from Aeros and Psyche, the 463 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.079 swords is from Orestes or wherever I was a live 464 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:19.680 English the ones are from Jason, and the pentacles are 465 00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:26.319 from Midas. No meat us from the father of eCos 466 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.680 for us they right now. But anyways, so there's always 467 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.960 like the myth through the ace. 468 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.720 To the ten, and then all the are connected in 469 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:34.960 this one. 470 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.599 So did you say Jason as in the Argonaut? 471 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:38.480 Yes? 472 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.160 Oh yeah, okay, that sounds great. 473 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.359 I love that thanks to riff Off. 474 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:48.119 Matt's point is is that, yeah, the mythological narrative Nantasia 475 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.400 is is one layer of that of one layer of kabala. 476 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:54.319 Like him just even telling you the story, he's drawing 477 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:57.519 you through a kabalistic narrative, like he's drawing you through 478 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.240 the tree. And then so for me, who is is 479 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.720 driven by myth? But I would say more an experiential cabalist. 480 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.400 For me, it's colors and words. So I relate to 481 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:13.319 perhaps like you, to words as magic words as both 482 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.480 a container of a narrative or can contain a narrative 483 00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:20.160 maybe as well as inherently magical in and of themselves. 484 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:21.920 So that's really alcabla is. 485 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.200 It's just a series of like ways that we understand 486 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.240 the correspondences. 487 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:27.680 Usually with words. 488 00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:33.000 So a poet is very well positioned to also be 489 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.440 a to create magic. Now, whether that person believes themselves 490 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.599 a magician or not. Obviously every great magician, they say, 491 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.519 or all the ones I most of the ones that 492 00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:45.039 I've ever met, or the ones that from history, like 493 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.319 Austin Osman Spare is like obviously the perennial example because 494 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:50.640 he was a poet, an artist, and a magician at 495 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:51.279 the same time. 496 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:57.359 An ultimate weirdo, an ultimate weirdo, an ultimate outside outside exactly. 497 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.240 So we so there's a joke that we talk about 498 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.480 on our group show is that every magician is an 499 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:06.000 in fact a word style, which is a very twitter 500 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.839 online kind of word. But it makes perfect sense because 501 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.640 the ways you tell stories is very magical, like how 502 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.599 you you know, like what symbols you use to relay 503 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.480 specific conceptual ideas that's going to give people. Maybe they 504 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:25.839 won't believe it then the wholesale sort of like components 505 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.720 of it, but even if they take one element and 506 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.400 then they say, oh, I'm going to utilize this for magic, 507 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:33.519 like they do with HP Lovecraft very often. 508 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.359 I'm curious also to understand how do you approach the 509 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.720 tarot readings as then there are a lot of people, 510 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.000 for example, who would get a reading done and then 511 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.400 assume that's like a sentence that's like, Okay, that's the 512 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.759 story that I'm telling you, and that's the sentence for 513 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:53.279 how it's going to play out. And some are. 514 00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:55.559 People like how I prefer to do this, for example, 515 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:58.640 is show them like, hey, this is where your head 516 00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:01.599 is at at the moment, and if you want to, okay, 517 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:02.880 live that story, good for you. 518 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:03.480 Go live it. 519 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:05.119 If you want to change this story a little bit, 520 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:07.400 you can go this way deck way, And it's more 521 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.960 like as a map they can navigate instead of again 522 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.960 a sentence or I don't know, maybe other creative ways 523 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:15.039 of the fixed stories. 524 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:16.920 Sometimes they give you fixed stories. I think that's what 525 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:17.559 you're kind of saying. 526 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:20.640 Yeah, I like the idea of the map. I think 527 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.079 of it as like for me, like developing a mythos, 528 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.960 a personal mythos, And so I love to use a 529 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.440 bunch of different decks. So like I only pretty much 530 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:37.599 clarify my questions or my spreads with my decks, just 531 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:39.880 because I like to use others decks and not just 532 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.799 be all about me and my things that I've created. 533 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:45.359 But I do really resonate with a few of my 534 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.000 decks very strongly, and I think they are potent in talismanic, 535 00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:53.559 so I definitely use them. And so how I work 536 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.640 is I don't tend to do like any traditional spreads 537 00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:01.079 like the Celtic Cross or anything like that, although obviously 538 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:03.480 I learned it originally in my early twenties, but just 539 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:06.440 what I do now, it's more effective for me to 540 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.480 just kind of like end up with a table full 541 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:10.799 of cards that are all over the place, and I 542 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.720 usually what I do is I start with like a 543 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.799 past present in future writer away smith kind of pull, 544 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:21.640 and then I start asking more questions and developing what 545 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:26.079 I call like clarifiers with other decks, my decks and things. 546 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.160 And so I feel like it's a deep dive in 547 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:31.400 a lot of ways because and I also get my 548 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.119 pendulum out sometimes and ask yes or no questions and 549 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:38.920 things like that, because my pendulum is just like freaking unbelievable. 550 00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:43.559 So it's just aligned with me. It's got that what 551 00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:46.240 they call like the ingez spirit you know in it, 552 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:51.920 so it's it's alive, and it helps me a lot 553 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.000 with like that yes or no. But you can't do 554 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.279 yes or no with like taro, so you've got to 555 00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:01.759 really develop a storyline to follow, you know, like those 556 00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:05.440 branches will go from there, they'll go down or they'll 557 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:09.880 go up. And so I decide, you know, it's pretty awesome. 558 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:14.039 I would like to ask then I think it's kind 559 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.200 of a good bass question is then what does the 560 00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.799 taro mean to you? And how do you see it 561 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.119 play out in your world as well as the world 562 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:23.759 at large. 563 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.960 It's just another tool or device for me because actually 564 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:31.480 even before Tarot, like when I was, you know, say 565 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.640 sixteen seventeen, I was writing poetry. I was no sorry, 566 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.599 I was writing lyrics because I wanted to be in 567 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.920 a band and then I got in a little like 568 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:45.839 garage band playing through role in synthesizer. And yeah, so 569 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:52.160 I was writing lyrics early on, and then heavily got 570 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.319 into poetry, like heavily like discovered like but are not 571 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:58.359 through Percy Shelley the Romance. So I was really into 572 00:30:58.359 --> 00:30:59.119 the romantics. 573 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.119 Nice I still still am. 574 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.759 And then I got into like the Decaden writers of 575 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.119 the simplest era and anyway, so Taro for me is 576 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.240 just another devnation oracular tool. And so how I feel 577 00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:15.480 about it now that I've you know, like I'm in 578 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.160 my fifties, right, so I'm like really thinking about all 579 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.359 of these paths that I've gone down through my life 580 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.519 and different avenues I've taken, Like even like the mothering 581 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.160 thing that I talked about earlier, you know, and how 582 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.200 I kind of slipped away from you know, like magic 583 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:34.799 and esoteric things then and that was in a lot 584 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.559 of ways, that was for me to realize certain things 585 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:40.200 about myself and my path. And so Taro and the 586 00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:45.599 a regular tradition for me goes back to like Apollo 587 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:53.039 and the muses and the soul's ability to connect with 588 00:31:53.160 --> 00:32:00.200 the diamon and to divine what you know, like what 589 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:03.680 is important in their lives and what can enrich their 590 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.960 lives and how they can become more embodied and more sovereign. 591 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.440 So the Taro great tradition out of you know, the Renaissance. 592 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:15.559 But for me it's also just like just a tool, 593 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.319 so I can use other tools too. And I used 594 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.319 to do the eaching quite a bit, but I won't 595 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:21.799 go into it right now, but I did do that 596 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:27.519 for years as well. Nice and I mean, obviously I 597 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:29.559 love to like read different books from you know, like 598 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:33.839 who have you know written about Taro and you know, 599 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:39.000 like Yodowski and Rachel Pollock. And yeah, there are definitely 600 00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:46.519 explorations that can take people in different directions with the 601 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:51.799 Taro itself, but really it's just a building block slash 602 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:56.279 tool for self discovery, and you know, like you could 603 00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:59.680 call it, like you know, fortune telling. I don't really 604 00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:06.079 like to all at that, because you know, you could 605 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.160 get a reading from it, which could be pretty inspirational, 606 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:14.680 but then something could turn on a dime, definitely, and 607 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.400 so you could just obsessively go back and do more terroostpreads, 608 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:19.720 you know, but at some point a person needs to 609 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.799 And that's what happened with me, is that I read 610 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:23.839 for three straight years in Ireland and then I just 611 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:28.000 stopped for years because I just got like inundated with 612 00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:30.160 it and I just didn't want to. It didn't have 613 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.519 any meaning until it came back to me in my 614 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:37.559 late forties and then the spirit of the decks really 615 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.519 began to like show up. And not to say that 616 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.359 they weren't there in my early twenties when I was 617 00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:44.119 in Ireland, because I'm sure they were, just so I 618 00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.400 didn't connect. I didn't know it, you know, Whereas now 619 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:51.039 I work with gods. I know the presences of gods, 620 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.160 and like when I meditate, I know when entities are 621 00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.480 speaking and when it's just my head or my psyche. 622 00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:59.559 Yeah, oh yeah, that's a great distinction. 623 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:03.160 I think that a lot of dabblers in the occult 624 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:07.519 and magic tend to forget is that there's these realms 625 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.119 of the personal conscious where it's like, what is it, 626 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.719 What is the difference between the phantasmagoria and just pure 627 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:15.559 your personal imagination? 628 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:21.679 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that phantasmagoria is pretty amazing as well, 629 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:25.920 and you can you can construct that creatively something to 630 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:27.440 suit your life as well. 631 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:31.719 You know, yeah, definitely, that's definitely the flucks. Oh no, 632 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.239 sorry to oh no, you go ahead. I was just 633 00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:36.599 saying that that is the phantasmic oria. I call it 634 00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:37.119 the flux. 635 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.760 Every magician has their own vocabulary, right, like their own 636 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:41.679 way of speaking of it. 637 00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:43.360 Cloquially, I call it the flux. 638 00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.360 So it's like what we draw from that is in that, 639 00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:49.480 and then what we can make of it. Obviously, every 640 00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:53.880 artist and magician both is always, always, always wants to 641 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:55.760 make something of it. So that's a big part of it. 642 00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.400 But I wanted to actually one comment and one sort 643 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:02.920 of follow up part. It's interesting that you bring up 644 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:06.679 the Jodoroski book because when Nick had Cherry Para on 645 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:11.079 who did the Left Hand Path Tarot book, she cited 646 00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:14.559 that book as one of her two inspirations, and I 647 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:17.199 also find that book very like I find his work 648 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:20.519 like incredibly inspiring. And I talked and we discuss how 649 00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.119 it like connects to his cinema work as well as 650 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:26.039 his like comic book work with Mobius, and it's all 651 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.280 kind of Taro and Kabbala and magic, like it's all 652 00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:33.119 metamagical together. So that's really interesting. But then you have 653 00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:36.679 one of your decks that you mentioned with Sublime Thresholds. 654 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.559 So my show is called Threshold Saints, so I just 655 00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:43.199 obviously that's going to catch my attention. So Sublime Thresholds, 656 00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.480 I wanted to ask about the name and if you 657 00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:47.199 wanted to go into that deck a little bit. 658 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:52.239 Yeah, absolutely. So back really quickly about Yodorowski. One of 659 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.159 the things that I loved about his vision was that 660 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:57.079 Tara was a sacred temple. And I think a lot 661 00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:00.639 of people, you know, like maybe you know in the 662 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:04.639 early days of you know, working with Tara, might not 663 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.920 necessarily see it as that or like a way, you know, 664 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.360 like a journey in a way and like a hero's 665 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:16.840 journey kind of thing. And that's definitely something that I see. 666 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:20.159 Tara's just kind of finish off that inspiration of Tara. 667 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.440 But okay, so for sublime thresholds that came about because 668 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:29.039 let's see, so in twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen, I 669 00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:35.079 did a master's degree in creative writing and I had 670 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:39.440 to put together a thesis. And I've always, like I mentioned, 671 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:44.840 have been into the decadent and writers and symbolists, and 672 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:50.119 so I felt like what I loved about art the 673 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:55.280 most was its enchanted quality that made me feel a 674 00:36:55.320 --> 00:37:00.719 sense of the sublime. And so I decided that the 675 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.840 sublime was still around because a lot of like someone 676 00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:05.400 even wrote, I forget the name of the person that 677 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.760 the sublime was, the sublime was dead, and I'm thinking, 678 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:11.920 fuck no, And in fact, humans will be dead when 679 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:13.039 the sublime becomes dead. 680 00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:13.719 Oh sure. 681 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:19.880 And so anyway, for me, these sort of heightened experiences 682 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.199 in either writing poetry or art or everything. You know, 683 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:28.119 it's kind of like the arrows principle arrows E ro os, 684 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:33.400 and so I wanted to explore and for that degree 685 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:35.440 it had to do with literary things. So it was 686 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:39.760 the endurance of the sublime in literary horror. And then 687 00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.960 this whole movement called the eco sublime, and so that's 688 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.760 what I wrote my thesis on and that sat around 689 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:50.480 for a few years afterwards, obviously, and then when I 690 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:53.760 was thinking about a new project to do with Urania 691 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.960 Press to publish, I was thinking how cool it would 692 00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:01.119 be to there's just so much beautiful artwork out there 693 00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:05.440 in the public domain, and a lot of it could 694 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.480 easily correspond with tarot archetypes and like the hero's journey, 695 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:15.400 and so I wanted to portray art that I felt 696 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.639 like took you up to that threshold. And obviously, like 697 00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:25.559 the Wander amongst the Fog of Casper David Friedrich is 698 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:29.440 like one of the most famous imagery of like, you know, 699 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:33.079 the man standing on the cliff with the rolling you know, 700 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.840 fog and clouds overlooking that. Like that's so like either 701 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.679 two or three of Wand's you know, So, I mean 702 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:45.480 sublime imagery corresponds pretty easily with the tarot tech in 703 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:48.960 that journey. So that's when I just decided to put 704 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:51.920 that together. And I ended up, you know, staying up 705 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.360 till like three in the morning, like just doing super 706 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:57.039 deep dives looking at over like four thousand images in 707 00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.199 the public domain, and even though some of them are 708 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.840 quite familiar images, I put them in because I felt 709 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:04.840 that they worked. But so I wasn't just grabbing whatever. 710 00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:07.440 I mean, I was really like just I spent so 711 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:10.239 much time curating those, like I said, over four thousand 712 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.760 images just to get the ones that I felt were right. 713 00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:18.679 And that of course is art work. That's you know, 714 00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:28.440 like either Gothic symbolist or Baroque. 715 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.960 And Natasha, maybe we should define symbolists just for people 716 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.119 who don't have an art history background, because I'm just 717 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.559 thinking to myself, like, what if people don't actually know 718 00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:33.480 what that word means. 719 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:35.239 Not that I mean I know what that word means. 720 00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:36.360 I mean, of course you do, but. 721 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:39.400 Just in case, just because I feel like it's a 722 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:40.559 lesser known movement. 723 00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:45.480 Yeah, So the symbolists of pretty much like the late 724 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.639 eighteen hundreds they call it, like the Findesi Ekla. They 725 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:54.280 were mostly English, they's some German and French, and they 726 00:39:54.280 --> 00:40:01.840 were French, and their art recalled back to like classical 727 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:07.039 times and myth and they loved you know, like Arthur 728 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:16.079 Otherian myths and stories, and they definitely were against rationalism 729 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:19.199 and realism, and so of course they also loved the 730 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.000 Romantics and so they just they kind of harkened back 731 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:28.239 to the magic and mystical really in art, that's my 732 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:36.239 quick definition of it. They also, I think spent a 733 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.159 lot of times in dream and and you know, working 734 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:52.119 through their imagination, fantasy and the phantasma oracle. Yeah. 735 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.159 One thing I did want to ask was a couple 736 00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:56.760 of things I wanted. One thing I wanted to mention 737 00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.599 that I noticed from you using I guess the e 738 00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.639 ching terror and a pendulum see rather than big into divination. 739 00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:05.599 Is that something you found yourself, I guess kind of 740 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:07.320 beg into when you get into this stuff. 741 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:11.199 Oh yeah, I mean I think I think I mentioned 742 00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:17.719 about Apollo and being the god of the oracular that 743 00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:22.639 there's a sense for me of if I was to say, 744 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:27.199 like what archetype my spirit or my person here on 745 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.440 earth now is connected to, it would be like the 746 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:32.920 seer prophetesque oracle. 747 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:35.639 And that sounds. 748 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.559 Kind of, you know, presumptuous, So I'm sorry if it 749 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:39.559 comes off that way. But I mean, if we all 750 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:41.719 had to sit down and say this is my archetype, 751 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.880 you know what I'm saying, Like, that's who I would say. 752 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:53.159 I was like, I'm connected to this inner exploration of 753 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:57.760 how to direct your life and the symbols and the 754 00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.920 things that can come down into your life to guide 755 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:04.159 you that way, and they will come from the gods, 756 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:06.719 and they like I am writing a book called some 757 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:12.559 Femota and Simbola, and so I feel like they definitely 758 00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:16.519 are you know, like manifestations that come into your life 759 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:21.000 from the gods, and so that devination is just a 760 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:27.920 way to express it. And I could easily go online 761 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.800 and just you know, do terror readings for people, but 762 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:35.400 I am more interested in art and writing, so creative writing, 763 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:39.159 and so I like to express my interests that way. 764 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.800 But yeah, I feel like I could, you know, like 765 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.360 I do readings for people, and I have gone to 766 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:50.000 shows and things, but I primarily it's just from you know, 767 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:54.519 helping friends or helping myself to just guide my way. 768 00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:57.960 It's you know, my place in the world and how 769 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:02.440 I fit in and all. So like, yeah, why am 770 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:02.880 I here? 771 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.519 Re enjoy I'm sorry, And. 772 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:08.760 I was gonna say, what can I offer? 773 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.599 You know, Yeah, I re enjoy your way of seeing 774 00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:17.760 this and spending my Coba Master explains as if like 775 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.840 reality is a series of frames like in a video, 776 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:23.519 and then each frame you could see as like a 777 00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:26.719 tarot card. So like each I think now I'm this card, 778 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:29.119 and then now I'm using this one and so on, 779 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.480 so like you keep changing them. So when you are 780 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:34.480 giving when you make a reading, like when you take 781 00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:38.519 them out, it's basically seeing what it's inside of you, 782 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:42.400 but in a like a table or whatever. That then 783 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.440 you can rearrange and then and then rewrite maybe or 784 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:47.920 or try to understand, like you're saying, like who am 785 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.480 I what is this archetype that keeps coming in? I 786 00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.360 did an experiment like I mentioned, I did seventy two 787 00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:57.079 weeks reading, like. 788 00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:58.920 Making a reading per week. 789 00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:02.000 I would take three card arts, and then after a 790 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.679 couple of weeks I started doing one per day as well. 791 00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.920 So in total it was like hundreds of cards. And 792 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:10.480 I saw the statistics at the end, and it was 793 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.719 very funny that the top four cards had to do 794 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.960 with my astrology signs, like when you make responses. So 795 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.599 then to me there was again a sign where okay, 796 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.280 I'm usually tapping into those archetypes. That makes sense, like 797 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.679 that again that they're talking about each other like astrology 798 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.239 and the terrorit and swan. So then if I know that, 799 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:33.719 then I know what are my strengths, my weaknesses, my 800 00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.639 shark Cummings, I'll be best at and so on. So 801 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.239 it's very pretty nice that way have seen it, like 802 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:39.920 we're talking about. 803 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.960 Yeah, that's beautiful. I like that connection. 804 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.119 Another thing I wanted to ask I was just I'm 805 00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:48.800 assuming I could be wrong. I just know from my 806 00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.480 experience even with I guess Tarot too. Again, I really 807 00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:56.079 never had much of a clue, but just other stuff 808 00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:56.920 that I practiced. 809 00:44:57.440 --> 00:44:58.639 The way you looked at it at the. 810 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:00.079 Beginning and the way you look at it now, is 811 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.480 it can kind of different? Have you kind of gone 812 00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:03.079 through Yeah? 813 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:09.119 Yeah, yeah, what were you going to say? 814 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:11.000 Is it possible, like I know, I might be putting 815 00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:12.960 it on the spot, might be always even explained, but 816 00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:14.360 is there is there a way maybe you can even 817 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.519 give examples, like how like I guess maybe your relationship 818 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:19.199 with the cards have changed over time? 819 00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:24.280 Yeah, Well, like as I mentioned, I see the spirit 820 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.440 that's behind it, so like I wouldn't I guess I 821 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:29.559 call it like the spirit that presides over the deck. 822 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:32.280 But I feel like i'm, you know, kind of like 823 00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:36.239 when I'm sitting down, I'm not alone, and that these 824 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:40.320 things are living beings, these cards are living beings, and 825 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.039 or even like, like I said, if I had my pendulum, 826 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:44.639 not that I do a ton of work on my bench. 827 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.800 I'm not just sitting here every day like holding my pendulum, 828 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:49.719 but like there are important times in my life, you know, 829 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:53.559 with certain questions and needs. But yeah, I think before 830 00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:57.440 obviously when I was in my early days, uh with Taro, 831 00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:02.440 I it's certainly enrich my life, but I didn't feel 832 00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:09.320 it was. It was more like an an addition to, 833 00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.639 you know, my world, but like it wasn't my world. 834 00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.559 And so whenever I sit down with like Taro, this 835 00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:21.960 is like my story coming out, my mythos as mentioned, 836 00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:27.280 and so it's almost like these beings are you know, 837 00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:30.800 whether they are like the diamond or like angelic intelligences 838 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:36.800 or whatever they are, you know they are They're they're 839 00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:40.159 pushing that that story through the cards for me, and 840 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:43.719 it's up to me and my intellect to like connect 841 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:45.800 in with it and see the signs and symbols and 842 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:49.679 understand it and like interpret it. And so I didn't 843 00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:52.800 have that sense in my early days reading Tara. It's 844 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:56.639 more just like you know, getting the booklet out and 845 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:59.920 you know, learning about it. But I think I did 846 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:02.960 spend some time like sort of a young approach. Back then, 847 00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:05.840 I had a book that guided me that way. So 848 00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:07.840 I think that's why the hero's journey has always been 849 00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:11.039 kind of, you know, like the Joseph Campbell like kind 850 00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:15.119 of obsession that some people got into. I did fall 851 00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:20.559 into that in my early twenties. So yeah, I think 852 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.559 now there's just way more of a sense of these 853 00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:27.760 are intelligences trying to communicate with me. How can I 854 00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:30.440 interpret them, bring them through that liminal threshold. 855 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.320 It's beautiful, one of the beautiful. I'm one of those 856 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:40.320 Joseph Campbell fanatics, and it's in the beginning of A 857 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.079 Hero with a Thousand Faces, he says, the unconscious mind. 858 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:46.239 Is like a Laddin's cave. It's got all. 859 00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:50.519 These beautiful things and jewels and everything nice and pretty. 860 00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:52.960 But then when you get deep dart into it, they 861 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.559 call it the genobide. There are many then, both dark 862 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:00.840 and scary and things that are going to up a. 863 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.239 Lot of the shadow aspects of self. 864 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:06.800 And what's so beautiful about the way you've kind of 865 00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.960 talked about the taro is even when you start bringing 866 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:13.119 it into the ideas of intelligences and archangels and these 867 00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:15.800 different things which are just names depending upon what culture 868 00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:16.920 your nervous system is in. 869 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:18.480 The beautiful thing. 870 00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:21.239 About it is that the taro is a living intelligence, 871 00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.719 and the more your nervous system and your brain and 872 00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:28.360 your body mind sysogy interact with it, the more you 873 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:33.199 then can tap into the beautiful, right, the good and 874 00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:37.639 these platonic forms that are then being expressed. And these 875 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:41.239 forms have this agragoric style nature that then when you, 876 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:43.639 through your nervous system are playing with them or doing 877 00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:47.360 a reading, the more you've had the ability to touch 878 00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:51.519 and feel and be sensuous and have that orphic eros 879 00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:56.000 coming through them and you it's almost like you're becoming 880 00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:00.239 a swords master, right. The swords are now the cards 881 00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:05.400 and they're not separate from you, but they are integrated there. 882 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.599 They are part of the hand, and so it's. 883 00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:09.400 Yeah, and I mean you could even say like a 884 00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:14.119 Nuwan's master and a chalice master, you know, rail master 885 00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:17.519 and like, uh, you know, the pinnacles can have you 886 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:21.119 know that symbolism as well. Yeah, but yeah, no, that's 887 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:27.280 really amazing. I definitely created the Odelrado deck Taro Kaimera 888 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.159 as a shadow work. I guess you could say deck 889 00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:34.679 just because of the fact that they're all noirs. I 890 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:39.280 felt like that was sensible and sense it made sense 891 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:41.559 to make that a deck to do deep dives with 892 00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:47.000 less subconscious and follow through that way. And I think 893 00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:50.559 the images touch you that way anyway. They're also kind 894 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:56.039 of uncanny and funny and like they're just they're sublime 895 00:49:56.079 --> 00:50:01.400 in their own right. But yeah, that that sense that 896 00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.280 he must have had of connected to spirit is so 897 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:08.039 clear with that those images. I keep wanting to say 898 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:09.840 cards but obvious artwork. 899 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:13.079 Yeah, yeah, that are his art is fantastic and I 900 00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:14.920 like how you express them through the cards, So I 901 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:18.039 like to see it. And when we talk about these things, 902 00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:21.239 it's like how many different angles and like models are 903 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:25.119 we viewing reality through. But the major arcana are almost 904 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:29.239 just and even your then minor kona. They're just structures 905 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.760 of existence, and each structure has a certain form which 906 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:35.480 then follows function, you know. And so it's like once 907 00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:39.239 you get his nervous system and the way he perceives things, 908 00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.360 and then it's really it's such a fascinating thing to 909 00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:46.559 see then how you've constructed the major arcana from because 910 00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.880 it's like the major arcona is set, you know, what 911 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:51.079 I mean. It's like you have everything from the full 912 00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:57.199 to the aon and you're then trying to build this 913 00:50:57.320 --> 00:50:59.719 beautiful thing off of it, like you already have this 914 00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:01.840 idea da set and then how do we pull out 915 00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.079 through his work and you put it into that ark. 916 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:05.239 It's a beautiful deck. 917 00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:06.559 Thank you. 918 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:07.239 Yeah. 919 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:12.960 Yeah. And I feel like sometimes I think to myself, like, gosh, 920 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:15.920 I wish there was more, like there must be more 921 00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:20.360 than just you know, like the twenty two, because it 922 00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:23.719 feels like you could easily like sit down and figure 923 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:24.239 out more. 924 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:25.000 Yeah. 925 00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:26.679 R Connor that you could come up with. 926 00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:28.280 You know, it's true. 927 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:30.679 But then we get into the problem of the post 928 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:34.079 modern chaos magicians. And then that problem is all of 929 00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:36.239 a sudden, you get too erratic and you don't have 930 00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:38.039 any set structure, and then all of a sudden you're 931 00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:38.800 just fucking. 932 00:51:38.559 --> 00:51:39.239 All over the place. 933 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:44.679 Now now, now, now that is completely unfair. That feels 934 00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.800 like fighting words episode. 935 00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:49.719 So that is not true. 936 00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:53.519 I'm a cast as you know, if you pass to 937 00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:55.719 the to the tree, and that is why there are 938 00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:57.280 twenty two major arcons. 939 00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:59.400 I want to say that that's true. 940 00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:03.239 Chaos wrap on the show. 941 00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:05.519 Just for the record, No, it's true. 942 00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:09.039 And I have my own inner chaos magician obviously through 943 00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:12.000 my hellenization of all the different things I do. So 944 00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:16.280 you're right, and I need I need individuals like yourself, Jin, 945 00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:17.159 to help pull me back. 946 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:22.000 So thank It feels nicely Saturnian to have those that structure. 947 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:25.719 Yeah, yeah, it doesn't, and that's my mercurialness nature. 948 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:26.480 I can't help it. 949 00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:28.159 I want to in hot I want to put it 950 00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.000 all together into this neat little package through all a 951 00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:31.960 crazy chaos. 952 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:35.159 That's a really good A really good chaos magician actually 953 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:38.920 likes to work within boundaries because it provides a useful 954 00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:44.320 framework for which to draw forth from the flux into 955 00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:47.719 something material. It's a true pathworking. It's like a true 956 00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.039 if you're willing into pathworking chaos magics for you, it's 957 00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:52.960 just that you have to take it with the limitations 958 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:54.800 at it, you know, has that's all. 959 00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:57.519 No, it's beautiful. Yeah, you're so elegantly. 960 00:52:57.519 --> 00:52:59.960 I always state these things, Jin, and I appreciate you there, 961 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:00.639 thank you. 962 00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:01.639 Yeah. 963 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:05.079 I used to integrate like chas magic into my virtual work, 964 00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:08.280 but it was never like purely that It's hard to explain, 965 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.320 like like sigils and certain things like maybe I would 966 00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:16.239 use do chaos magic with like you'll use that sigil 967 00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:18.159 and charge it, but it's because I'm using that for 968 00:53:18.199 --> 00:53:19.840 a ritual I'm going to do a few days later. 969 00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:24.039 That was never like the type explain. 970 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:26.440 I mean, I don't like to call my magic chaos 971 00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:30.840 magic per se, but it must obviously be because I 972 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:33.800 I take in what makes sense to me and what 973 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:36.320 works for me. And if it's from all different you know, 974 00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.280 any different traditions, that's awesome. And like I was saying, 975 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:42.719 I haven't really gone down the deep dive of kabbala, 976 00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:48.559 and but I yeah, like I find that I don't 977 00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:53.280 want to limit myself so but but I I seek 978 00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:55.800 that wisdom from within. It's something that comes from within. 979 00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:58.519 It's not like, oh, that looks cool. I want to, 980 00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:01.400 you know, explore that that's something maybe I did do 981 00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:04.559 in my early days, but not later now I'm you know, 982 00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:08.719 it's it's what I call like my synchronistic path. It's 983 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:15.119 what comes to me that is symbolic and synchronous synchronicities. 984 00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:18.360 I can see things that start shaping up and they're 985 00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:22.760 presenting themselves to me. Like when I discovered that a 986 00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:25.920 couple of years ago, I discovered that Apollo and Athena 987 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:27.679 have been in my life since I was a teen, 988 00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.719 like an early teen, or maybe even like a little kid. 989 00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:33.199 But I didn't know that all through my twenties, thirties, 990 00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:36.840 and forties, no joke. But when I now look at 991 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:39.639 all these things throughout my life that have happened to me, 992 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:43.920 and I can tie it all to either Apollo or Athena. 993 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:47.239 And it's very interesting because I never said, oh, I 994 00:54:47.320 --> 00:54:50.719 want to, you know, be a devotional devotee of like 995 00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:55.000 Apollo or Athena, but that they have been like speaking 996 00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:57.920 to me all through these years in signs and symbols, 997 00:54:57.960 --> 00:54:59.519 and it just took a while. 998 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:03.719 Before Dawn taught me yes. 999 00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.719 And you know, it was just like I think it 1000 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:14.599 was because I started like magical thinking became who I am. 1001 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:18.679 I think I've always had like magical thinking, but I 1002 00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:21.239 embodied it so much more in my late forties when 1003 00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:25.039 I could kind of like step back from mothering basically, 1004 00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:29.519 you know, get back into you know, all the sort 1005 00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:31.599 of things that make me who I am and not 1006 00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:35.840 just like always pleasing my little ones and making their 1007 00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:41.039 lives enchanting, you know. And so yeah, it was like 1008 00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:46.320 very important to discover that there were particular gods on 1009 00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:48.559 my side that I didn't even know were there, and 1010 00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:50.679 now I'm certain they've been there. You know. 1011 00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:54.320 Well, there's something interesting actually when I talked to you 1012 00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:58.480 about what you just said in reference to Kabbalah, is that, well, 1013 00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:01.079 first fall your past age of forty, so you across 1014 00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:04.320 the you know, the threshold you could say, into the 1015 00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:08.440 ascetic consciousness that of Jupiter. Jupiter is also a co 1016 00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:11.679 ruler of Uranus. You said you're an Aquarius. Well, the 1017 00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:15.599 spirit of Aquarius is driven by the idea of justice, 1018 00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:18.280 so that's also. 1019 00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:19.519 Very asthetic in a way. 1020 00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:23.760 So there's a direct one to one kind of correspondence 1021 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:29.440 in the higher event obviously occurs on that pillar, and 1022 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.519 that can be related to Neptune, but it can also 1023 00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:34.079 or Hope mob but it can it can also be 1024 00:56:34.119 --> 00:56:38.159 related Togetherra, which has a Mars which has a very 1025 00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:41.920 strong relationship with Jupiter or Hesse. So it's kind of 1026 00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.920 like the it's that priestly knowledge, that kind of thing 1027 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.440 that you're talking about self referential. You're like, your internal 1028 00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:52.719 flame is kind of what guides you your arrow with an 1029 00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:56.719 a so that that kind of does actually directly correlate. 1030 00:56:56.840 --> 00:57:00.599 And then there's an idea that the coming age will 1031 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:03.519 be a solar one or will have a solar lunar 1032 00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:08.719 synthetic element, so like Apollo and an Athena. 1033 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:11.599 A son and a daughter. So that's kind of interesting. 1034 00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:14.239 I think just from a you know, just like a 1035 00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:19.239 speculative like gnostic perspective, and I think you're you're right. 1036 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:21.039 I think I think that's what it is about, is 1037 00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:24.119 drawing from things that are meaningful, that makes sense to you, 1038 00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:26.880 and that are practical that work. It's not just we're 1039 00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:31.320 not replicating Golden Down, you know, ritual texts wholesale. You're 1040 00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:35.719 looking at them in like terms of the whole landscape. 1041 00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:37.760 So yeah, I think that if you want to call 1042 00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:39.280 yourself a chaot, I think that's cool. 1043 00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:40.400 But you know that's just me. 1044 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:44.400 Yeah, yeah, I guess it's almost like it's hard not 1045 00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:49.440 to be categorized in that chaos magic realm, especially since 1046 00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:53.920 there are very few people who have been initiated through 1047 00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:57.840 structural systems like the Golden Dawn, you know what I mean, 1048 00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:01.000 And so we're all kind of just uh an amalgamorum 1049 00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:05.400 of these teachings that have come down through time and 1050 00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:07.679 then trying to put them through our own nervous systems 1051 00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:09.199 to understand our body mind. 1052 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:13.079 Yeah, and I think a lot of what I'm trying 1053 00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:16.840 to say too, is like who I have become and 1054 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:20.840 who I am is a lot of it's from DNA memory, 1055 00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:23.519 is what I call it, like cellular memory, And so 1056 00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:27.280 it's like what I must have and could have easily been, 1057 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.960 because I'm absolutely, you know, for me, certain that I've 1058 00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:35.360 had past lives, and so I spend a lot of 1059 00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:41.880 time thinking about and connecting in with past lives and 1060 00:58:42.039 --> 00:58:44.679 the traditions that I may have followed then and the 1061 00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:48.840 initiations I may have had then. And for instance, you know, 1062 00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:53.000 like I have a desire to move to Italy but 1063 00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:59.199 maybe potentially France to study taro more deeply from the 1064 00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:02.480 early decks that were created in the Renaissance and really 1065 00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:08.800 Renaissance and latent evil. And so I because I have 1066 00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:15.079 direct correlations to certain like families from Italy and certain 1067 00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:18.159 Tarot traditions, you know, not like Tero traditions, but Taro, 1068 00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:22.199 like the Tarocchi, and like the creators and the families 1069 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:24.599 that were making those. And I've had a lot of 1070 00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:29.639 bizarre synchronicities come into my life about all of that, 1071 00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:32.760 and so I just know that there's the stuff that 1072 00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:35.599 touches my life. There's no sis that touches my life 1073 00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:39.079 from past life experiences. And I used to be really 1074 00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:42.920 I felt funny talking about it with people, like constantly 1075 00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:47.480 talking about past lives, until I discovered that the Greeks 1076 00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:51.599 that was you know, they had that word for it too, and. 1077 00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:53.880 Met psychosis or transmigration. 1078 00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:59.400 Yeah, exactly, with metam psychosis like they were, you know, 1079 00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:04.519 it was completely normal and not abnormal to understand you're 1080 01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:08.599 like and if particularly like you were saying orphic initiat, 1081 01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:13.679 which I'm certain that I had some experience of that 1082 01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:17.400 in a past life and probably was involved in some 1083 01:00:17.559 --> 01:00:21.159 of the mysteries, and so that nosis comes through, and 1084 01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:23.760 you know, like I am a woman, so I suppose 1085 01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:26.440 there's more of a sense of like that intuitive side. 1086 01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:30.000 So it's like all of the magic that may seem 1087 01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:33.400 like chaos, magic that comes into my life can also 1088 01:00:33.519 --> 01:00:35.719 not just be from things that I discovered in my 1089 01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:38.360 teens and twenties and thirties, forties, fifties, you know, but 1090 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:42.440 like brought through from many generations, in many lives and 1091 01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:46.360 many weird experiences and things where I've had extreme trauma. 1092 01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:50.559 In fact, I've talked about this on other podcasts, but 1093 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:56.840 I think that my road towards motherhood in this life 1094 01:00:57.239 --> 01:01:01.599 was to blanket some of the traumas of past lives 1095 01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:06.639 and to kind of keep that bay my magic, and 1096 01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:09.159 once my kids were old enough, I was allowed to 1097 01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:11.239 let it through. I was allowed to sort of step 1098 01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.360 away and like let that like deep magic come out 1099 01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:20.920 and not be so afraid of it because of you know, 1100 01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:24.880 experiences and past lives. Worse probably for me it was 1101 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:27.400 strangled and drowned rather than burnt. 1102 01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:28.400 But yet. 1103 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:32.280 Those experiences I think are in our you know, bones 1104 01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.320 and our like DNA history and like cellular stuff. 1105 01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:43.239 So yeah, nice, Uh, Judith, is this something you wanted 1106 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:44.559 to ask you? 1107 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:49.559 I did have a question because of your approach towards 1108 01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:51.400 the way you developed these cards. 1109 01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:53.880 I'm unfamiliar with it, and I could. 1110 01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:57.480 See the artistry work within the cards, but you also 1111 01:01:57.719 --> 01:02:01.800 added literature. So I was wondering to help those who 1112 01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:06.519 are new to your approach in this your dex. Do 1113 01:02:06.599 --> 01:02:12.039 you how can I say, connect like a specific work 1114 01:02:12.039 --> 01:02:14.719 of art, like a specific poem to each card, to 1115 01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:19.199 help like someone who gets your card connect with the 1116 01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:23.039 vibe and the the emotion and the feeling you're trying 1117 01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:24.480 to invoke with it. 1118 01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:28.159 Yeah, so that was kind of why I got into 1119 01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:32.480 creating tarot, because I've always loved poetry and I've always 1120 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.920 loved art, and I've always wondered how to combine the two. 1121 01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:37.760 So I did book arts for a little while, but 1122 01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:42.519 it never really it just didn't sustain me and I 1123 01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:44.360 it just wasn't like I didn't want to keep just 1124 01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:50.280 creating like standalone art books or whatever. So but yeah, 1125 01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:52.039 so I wanted to do more writing. That's when I 1126 01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:54.719 went back to school for creative writing, and I wanted 1127 01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:58.679 to then express the two together somehow, And Taro made 1128 01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:03.039 sense because you know, you've got the interpretations alongside the 1129 01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:06.800 card itself. And so I wanted mine to be definitely 1130 01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:11.199 like poetic inspired. So whenever I write, it is a 1131 01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:18.119 bit of like what someone might say channeling, and you know, 1132 01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:21.840 I will I will do it from like the hero's 1133 01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:28.280 journey kind of perspective. It's mythic, it's poetic and it's 1134 01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:34.519 magical minded, you know. And I don't have a specific 1135 01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:37.719 you know, like poem, but I have put poems together 1136 01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:41.280 with Tara, like my Sublime Threshold steck for each interpretation 1137 01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:45.039 does have a poem from some other famous you know, 1138 01:03:45.159 --> 01:03:50.559 like writer. But yeah, does that answer your question or 1139 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:52.320 was there more you wanted me to explain? 1140 01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:58.000 Actually it did because because I was trying to understand 1141 01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:00.239 since you don't use the kabala and a it's not 1142 01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:03.280 the ruined system and you say you don't necessarily follow 1143 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:07.440 astrology too much. I was trying to put that together 1144 01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:11.599 and see how to move forward when it comes to 1145 01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:12.440 using your deck. 1146 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:15.800 Oh yeah, yeah, well, I mean all the all the 1147 01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:18.599 decks I've created all have guide books that are extended, 1148 01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:20.440 so not just the little white book that goes in 1149 01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:23.800 the deck, but like creative interpretations that I've written that 1150 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:26.920 go with them, and that usually for my indie decks, 1151 01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:30.320 there are separate books that I've published, and with the 1152 01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:33.320 wiser decks, they have them right in there with the 1153 01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:34.440 like a box set. 1154 01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:38.840 Yep, that's all was the one they sent me, very nice, 1155 01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:43.760 cythe I wanted to ask you, what's what is different 1156 01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:45.880 about emblem emblemata? 1157 01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:47.559 Sorry is how do you say that one again? 1158 01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:49.079 Emblemata? 1159 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:50.440 Yeah? Okay, it was right. 1160 01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:53.920 What's like what's different about that deck, like the reason 1161 01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:56.079 Like normally when I ask people who write a book, 1162 01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:59.039 like what will you bring to the public that's different 1163 01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:01.000 than everybody else you wrote on this topic? 1164 01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:02.639 So you know what I'm saying, I kind of like 1165 01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:03.800 the same thing with your taro. 1166 01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:07.000 Yeah, for sure. I mean I think for me, they 1167 01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:10.039 well first and foremost when I had seen a lot 1168 01:05:10.039 --> 01:05:12.320 of the emblemsloading around, like when I would go to 1169 01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:15.800 Pinterest and just on the internet, and I'd always been 1170 01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:19.360 drawn to them because they have that like iconic. They're 1171 01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:24.119 black and white, they're iconic, and they are archaic, which 1172 01:05:24.119 --> 01:05:26.559 has always interested me because there's a sense of the 1173 01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:32.840 mystical and the metaphysical behind them and obviously archetypal and symbolic, 1174 01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:36.320 but it's for what I love about them is they 1175 01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:39.440 are from the Renaissance, and there's a sense of Renaissance 1176 01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:43.480 wisdom there, so there's like it's like they are microcosms 1177 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:48.079 of something bigger and they're emblematic, you know, and they 1178 01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:54.239 are they represent different things for the culture at the time, 1179 01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:57.840 and they were for people who were both literate and illiterate, 1180 01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:00.360 because people who could read could read them, mom, but 1181 01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:02.360 people who couldn't really could look at the symbols and 1182 01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.039 they could kind of guess and figure. 1183 01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:04.440 It out, you know. 1184 01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:10.639 But yeah, I think that with Renaissance wisdom, there's a 1185 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:17.320 sense of no separation of you know, like spirituality and 1186 01:06:17.320 --> 01:06:20.559 philosophy and science and theology. It was all kind of 1187 01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:24.320 like together as one. At least that's how I interpret it, 1188 01:06:26.119 --> 01:06:30.159 and so early science obviously, but you know, so things 1189 01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:35.039 like astronomy and like music and you know, painting and 1190 01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:38.760 everything was kind of like combined into a philosophy. And 1191 01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:41.960 so that's what I love about these emblems, and they're 1192 01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:46.000 also they tre they're transcendent for me because you know, 1193 01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:48.880 you can you can decode them of their clues, but 1194 01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:51.320 I think that they speak for themselves just by looking 1195 01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:55.239 at them, and they can be contemporary even though they're ancient. 1196 01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:00.440 So uh yeah, I think that's what makes some special. 1197 01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:05.679 They were created in fifteen fifty one. If you need 1198 01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:08.320 to know the name of the these particular, the person 1199 01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:11.960 who curated these, it's Claude Paradine and his book device 1200 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:18.199 is aerow Week And there were many emblematic books of 1201 01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:22.239 the time, and I think there's something like six thousand, 1202 01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:27.079 So yeah, it was pretty big back then, and they 1203 01:07:27.239 --> 01:07:32.960 I think have transcendent appeal. They people do like to 1204 01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:37.599 you know, Like obviously when I saw these images, when 1205 01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:40.280 I started looking at the whole book and seeing all 1206 01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:43.320 these emblems, it was obvious that there were so many 1207 01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:45.639 that related to the taro and the traditional sort of 1208 01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:49.639 rightaway smith or even some of them might say, you know, 1209 01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:53.079 like so there's like the key, the cross key that 1210 01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:56.360 made sense for the heerophont, you know, there was a 1211 01:07:56.440 --> 01:07:58.639 line with a sword that was obviously like perfect for 1212 01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:03.320 the string card. But more than obvious was there was 1213 01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:08.440 so many that that typical right away smith like arm 1214 01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:12.079 holding a sword, or a wand or a chalice, or 1215 01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:14.639 even a pentacle coming out of a cloud that is 1216 01:08:14.679 --> 01:08:18.000 the ace of swords, wands, pentacles, and cups. You know. 1217 01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:23.880 So it just it made sense to bring these and 1218 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:26.840 kind of revivify them and bring them out into the 1219 01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:29.279 world in a unique and different way and have them 1220 01:08:29.840 --> 01:08:32.000 be attached to not only their mottos that are on 1221 01:08:32.079 --> 01:08:36.920 the cards, but also write interpretations of them based on 1222 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:41.039 their like the inscriptio and the subscriptio of the what 1223 01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:45.439 was called the pictora the emblem. And yeah, I think 1224 01:08:45.439 --> 01:08:46.319 they're pretty magical. 1225 01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:52.760 Is it all right? 1226 01:08:53.560 --> 01:08:57.000 Unfortunately, because they did send me your other deck, was 1227 01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:58.640 it all right? Maybe I showed some of the images 1228 01:08:58.680 --> 01:09:02.439 of the Tarot camera just sure, yeah, because I think 1229 01:09:02.600 --> 01:09:07.720 some of this stuff is amazing. We have the full 1230 01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:09.319 card and the Magician car and the Horrofin. 1231 01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:20.560 So I like changes m one thing I did want 1232 01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:21.159 to ask you. 1233 01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:23.760 I guess since I'm looking at it now, it reminded 1234 01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:26.159 me what was it that made you want to add 1235 01:09:26.199 --> 01:09:27.039 those extra cards? 1236 01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:31.199 Because there were so many great images and I didn't 1237 01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:35.119 want to stop, and also because me, yeah, because I'm 1238 01:09:35.159 --> 01:09:38.600 not much. I guess I'm getting a little more into 1239 01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:41.960 it now. But I haven't always been really like big 1240 01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.439 on Oracle decks. But it was fun to I think 1241 01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:47.840 i'd gotten like the Pig in Other Worlds years ago, 1242 01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:50.039 and I was like, they had that extra card and 1243 01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:52.439 at the end, and I was like, oh, I'll do one. 1244 01:09:52.479 --> 01:09:54.119 And so I did that one, the visionary one that 1245 01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:58.720 you just showed as like a Irania Press last card 1246 01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:01.720 for my indie deck. It actually has information on it 1247 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.479 written on it for you know, like you're on your press. 1248 01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:10.119 But anyway, so yeah, I just like want to keep 1249 01:10:10.159 --> 01:10:13.840 doing more, but also it's fun to have a few 1250 01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:18.000 oracle cards in there and they make statements on their own. 1251 01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:21.159 This is pretty cool. 1252 01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:26.279 In fact, I could have done an entire oracle deck 1253 01:10:26.359 --> 01:10:30.039 for more of Raydon's work, but someone has already done that. 1254 01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:38.159 Always give people that idea what it looks like. 1255 01:10:38.199 --> 01:10:43.399 In Yeah, it's got such like a haunting, beautiful aesthetic 1256 01:10:43.520 --> 01:10:47.039 to it that is like with the light in the dark, 1257 01:10:47.079 --> 01:10:50.359 it's got such like a phenomenological experience of how it 1258 01:10:50.439 --> 01:10:51.399 makes you feel. 1259 01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:55.920 Not that I know the way I explained it probably 1260 01:10:55.960 --> 01:10:58.840 like I wasn't knocking it, but I think yesterday when 1261 01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:00.520 I mentioned that we're going to where we're going to 1262 01:11:00.560 --> 01:11:04.359 go live, which is no big deal, I was promoting 1263 01:11:04.359 --> 01:11:05.880 the show already and I said, he know, this art 1264 01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:07.920 is pretty sick. I said, it reminded me of that 1265 01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:11.319 book if people remember more scary stories to tell in 1266 01:11:11.399 --> 01:11:15.520 the dark scary that show was always creepy to me, 1267 01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:17.840 and I was like, Yo, this art is sick. 1268 01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:22.640 Yeah, because it's the sublime and the surreal extend outside 1269 01:11:22.800 --> 01:11:25.279 of our normal rational mind state. And so it's like 1270 01:11:25.319 --> 01:11:27.920 when the shadows start to creep with the lights, you 1271 01:11:28.039 --> 01:11:33.319 see all kinds of different ghosts like apparatuses, you know. 1272 01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:37.560 Yeah, Like on the back of the this deck from Wiser, 1273 01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:40.079 I give a quote from right down which was like 1274 01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:45.239 that his imagery places quote the logic of the visible 1275 01:11:45.319 --> 01:11:48.000 at the service of the invisible, and that I think 1276 01:11:48.119 --> 01:11:51.119 is a really good one for his work, because the invisible, 1277 01:11:51.319 --> 01:11:58.640 the noetic, the phenomenal, you know, it comes out in 1278 01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:02.159 that work. It's clear to me then he was connected to. 1279 01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:08.960 Spirits, oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, because it veers. 1280 01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:12.079 What's interesting is how the aesthetic can still be sublime 1281 01:12:12.079 --> 01:12:15.800 and beautiful and veer towards the grotesque. And I think 1282 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:19.119 a lot of people forget how the grotesque is something 1283 01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:23.079 that is kind of mind bending and also interacts with 1284 01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:28.079 your gut when you have certain experiences, and it's most 1285 01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:31.680 of those experiences that are most paradigmatic or paradigm shifting 1286 01:12:31.720 --> 01:12:32.680 for our consciousness. 1287 01:12:32.920 --> 01:12:35.600 Yeah, and I think that the chimera and the hybrid 1288 01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:39.520 creature I think is important as a symbolic image to 1289 01:12:40.039 --> 01:12:44.600 not forget because we have, you know, with too much 1290 01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:47.439 New Age stuff, just go too much into the light, 1291 01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:52.319 you know, and we've got to continue to be haunted 1292 01:12:52.399 --> 01:12:55.359 by weird and uncanny, ununcanny you. 1293 01:12:55.319 --> 01:12:56.920 Know, Yeah, that's great. 1294 01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:02.079 It helps us to think deeper about ourselves and relation 1295 01:13:02.199 --> 01:13:04.079 to others, you know, and relationship spirit. 1296 01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:07.600 Yeah, and totally understand the monster aspect of the human 1297 01:13:08.199 --> 01:13:11.399 consciousness of person, of our personhood. It's it's it's fat, 1298 01:13:11.479 --> 01:13:14.199 it's like we Yeah, exam, I completely agree on how 1299 01:13:14.199 --> 01:13:16.960 the New Age thing wants to be like love and 1300 01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:20.680 light and it's all angels and what it's like. Actually, 1301 01:13:20.680 --> 01:13:24.199 most of our mind is always taken up with the 1302 01:13:24.279 --> 01:13:26.119 haunting and the emotional. 1303 01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:30.560 Yeah, and I mean it pisses me off in a 1304 01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:34.239 lot of ways, that whole kind of angels as you know, 1305 01:13:34.399 --> 01:13:38.960 something derogatory because angels originally even were like considered so 1306 01:13:39.119 --> 01:13:41.800 frightening and so scary, you know, like and they were 1307 01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:45.119 depicted as wheels with hundreds of eyes and you know, 1308 01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:49.920 it's just bizarre. So yeah, I mean, the angelic everything 1309 01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:51.840 to me when it comes to all of this work, 1310 01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:57.039 and also just my spiritual path is about entity, deity, spirit, 1311 01:13:57.520 --> 01:14:02.199 diamond and that connection and that guidance. So whether it 1312 01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:03.600 be angel or whatever. 1313 01:14:05.680 --> 01:14:06.479 Yeah, that's beautiful. 1314 01:14:06.520 --> 01:14:09.119 Yeah, people forget kind of exactly what you just said 1315 01:14:09.199 --> 01:14:11.479 is people forget that if you were to witness a 1316 01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:14.239 god's true form or an angel's true form, it would 1317 01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:15.159 destroy you. 1318 01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:18.880 Yeah, and I mean that, you know, Gustav Moreau painting 1319 01:14:19.239 --> 01:14:22.560 of Zeus with is it Somale, you know, like she 1320 01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:26.720 just like disintegrated because he had to show her his 1321 01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:30.319 true form because she was tricked by Harah. But yeah, 1322 01:14:30.359 --> 01:14:35.359 so that's an amazing painting and a great story. But yeah, 1323 01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:38.439 I think that I think that we could probably yeah, 1324 01:14:38.600 --> 01:14:41.760 never truly see them. But that's why we have symbols 1325 01:14:41.800 --> 01:14:43.520 and all of this art, you know, And that's what 1326 01:14:43.640 --> 01:14:46.479 really pisses me off about, like the Reformation and all 1327 01:14:46.520 --> 01:14:49.600 of that was you know, iconoclasm and like you know, 1328 01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:53.840 smashing the icons and everything, because to me, it's what 1329 01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:57.359 art is all about, is you know, we're as human beings, 1330 01:14:57.560 --> 01:15:00.479 you know, we were I think taught by the angels 1331 01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:02.760 this stuff, you know, and I think it's important, even 1332 01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:05.800 if it's a fallen thing, it's a really creative and 1333 01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:06.239 good thing. 1334 01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:10.119 Yeah. Nice leads back into like what we were talking 1335 01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:13.760 about for about Scarlet imprint and what Peter Greve was 1336 01:15:13.760 --> 01:15:17.000 trying to get at with is Lucifer Praxis is so good, 1337 01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:19.640 which is a brilliant Yeah, they're brilliant. And it's the 1338 01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:22.760 idea of like the magic and the mysticism was taught 1339 01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:26.560 to us by those fallen angels and how that has 1340 01:15:26.640 --> 01:15:29.279 moved through it And if you are a magician or 1341 01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:32.760 a mystic or somebody you know, we are the rebels 1342 01:15:33.359 --> 01:15:37.479 exploring the unconscious realms of not only the world, but 1343 01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:41.000 the world that is the fantasmical. We like going outside 1344 01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:44.960 into the dark with little flashlights and look, and the 1345 01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:48.279 flashlight is what creates then kind of like images that 1346 01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:49.960 you're putting into that deck. 1347 01:15:51.039 --> 01:15:53.439 Yeah, that's why I'm really into Prometheus because of the 1348 01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:56.119 idea of like, you know, like in ways like what 1349 01:15:56.159 --> 01:15:58.479 the angels did, he fell, you know what I mean 1350 01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:01.600 and brought the lights you know. 1351 01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:03.239 Oh yeah, I love for me this too. 1352 01:16:03.520 --> 01:16:05.680 And I just want to challenge Brandon and say that 1353 01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:09.039 you're not you're you're you're not against the you're pro 1354 01:16:09.199 --> 01:16:12.439 ARCon If you are not a little. 1355 01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:14.399 Bit of chaos, No, for sure. 1356 01:16:14.840 --> 01:16:16.800 So you have to That's why we have to have 1357 01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:20.279 those like uh, you know, wild and weird syncretic elements 1358 01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:22.880 to sort of like you know, rock and roll. We 1359 01:16:22.920 --> 01:16:24.920 don't want to keep the heavens the same we want 1360 01:16:24.920 --> 01:16:26.359 to like bring the light down here. 1361 01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:30.720 Yeah, said no, I completely agree, and I'm definitely pro ARCon. 1362 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:32.199 It's such a fascinating world. 1363 01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:36.399 What's happened in the taking of the gnostic or understandings 1364 01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:39.399 of even what an ARCon is and how we like 1365 01:16:39.880 --> 01:16:42.479 epitomize it up and then we want to always destroy them. 1366 01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:44.079 But I actually said it really nicely. 1367 01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:46.359 I think it was in your guys' conversation with him 1368 01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:50.479 and Jamie Paul Lamb and talking about how these arcons 1369 01:16:50.520 --> 01:16:54.199 are actually gatekeepers or guardians of certain levels of consciousness 1370 01:16:54.279 --> 01:16:57.800 as we reach paradigmatic movements in our own like ascent 1371 01:16:58.000 --> 01:16:58.960 towards the stars. 1372 01:16:59.520 --> 01:17:02.720 That's an interesting Hellenic way that I strongly disagree, And 1373 01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:05.479 I told that I disagree with that. That's not that's 1374 01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:07.600 not a tontric way. That's not a good way to 1375 01:17:07.640 --> 01:17:10.720 describe it, right, of course, you know, it's it's one way. 1376 01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:13.520 It's an interesting way that I've heard people from that 1377 01:17:13.640 --> 01:17:17.000 system describe it. And you know, I'm more about like, 1378 01:17:17.079 --> 01:17:20.640 I think the arcons are sort of our fears and projections, 1379 01:17:20.640 --> 01:17:25.199 our klipas, our aggregations. I think that's what more it's about. 1380 01:17:25.239 --> 01:17:26.960 So I think if we want to behead them. I 1381 01:17:26.960 --> 01:17:28.199 think that that's totally okay. 1382 01:17:28.640 --> 01:17:32.199 Yeah, I think that's important as well, which is why 1383 01:17:32.399 --> 01:17:34.520 the rebel nature kind of comes out and probably why 1384 01:17:34.520 --> 01:17:38.680 we agree on such so much is that they're important 1385 01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:42.880 to stand. It's like, what are we but representations of 1386 01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:45.399 exactly the fears that we project outward? 1387 01:17:45.520 --> 01:17:45.720 You know? 1388 01:17:48.680 --> 01:17:49.640 Yeah, it's beautiful. 1389 01:17:49.920 --> 01:17:52.560 Yeah, I would like to. I've been putting on the 1390 01:17:52.600 --> 01:17:56.840 back burner a book that would explore further about my 1391 01:17:57.039 --> 01:18:00.520 conceptions of arkans, which so I'm not going to get 1392 01:18:00.520 --> 01:18:02.960 into that right now because that's like for the back burner, 1393 01:18:03.399 --> 01:18:09.079 but for kind of like me trying to understand why 1394 01:18:09.119 --> 01:18:12.319 the world is so fucked up and why there's so 1395 01:18:12.399 --> 01:18:16.960 much evil and how like. So this research would include 1396 01:18:17.439 --> 01:18:22.640 everything and anything to do with fallen angels, arcons, Sophia, wisdom, 1397 01:18:22.840 --> 01:18:28.640 primordial man, and then how you know, like like before 1398 01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:35.560 the flood, and to understand if there was a golden age, 1399 01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:39.359 how that golden age could come back into play, and 1400 01:18:39.520 --> 01:18:42.960 what we could do now to kind of like take 1401 01:18:43.000 --> 01:18:43.840 steps towards it. 1402 01:18:45.560 --> 01:18:47.920 Long you know, they your. 1403 01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:50.680 Own mind number and that's the number, and that's we're 1404 01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:53.520 in a silver age. Natassia that's how I've positive day. 1405 01:18:53.720 --> 01:18:55.239 So we're in a silver age, So this is a 1406 01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:57.960 time to cultivate your own mind, cultivate your psychic powers, 1407 01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:00.399 if you want to call it that. Yeah, that's how 1408 01:19:00.399 --> 01:19:02.520 you move the age forward. The age moves forward whether 1409 01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:05.000 we know it or not, whether we're reception or not, 1410 01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:08.960 the AONs continue the wheel moves, so we have to 1411 01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:11.640 be in perception of it and then also enact those 1412 01:19:11.680 --> 01:19:15.199 things that are aonic, those things that those archetypal things 1413 01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:16.399 that will help us move through. 1414 01:19:17.079 --> 01:19:19.279 That's kind of a neo gnostic way to think of it. 1415 01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:21.199 Yeah, I love that. I love that. 1416 01:19:21.199 --> 01:19:24.920 That's the self mythologizing understand how embodiment and practice and 1417 01:19:25.119 --> 01:19:28.000 interact in the world. It's not so much going out 1418 01:19:28.039 --> 01:19:30.319 in the world and trying to do things, but it's 1419 01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:34.840 like sitting down with your own reflections and contemplations and 1420 01:19:34.880 --> 01:19:37.520 at the same time try to like like harmonize with 1421 01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:41.439 the inner like king, queen, lover, warrior, magician, poet, type 1422 01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:45.039 of personas that are continually interacting through the cards themselves, 1423 01:19:45.039 --> 01:19:45.640 it seems like. 1424 01:19:46.319 --> 01:19:48.600 But also like you know, that's why I'm writing that 1425 01:19:48.640 --> 01:19:52.079 book on synthemonton Symbola, because I feel like we are 1426 01:19:52.119 --> 01:19:54.479 not alone. We have the gods trying to tell us 1427 01:19:54.479 --> 01:19:57.239 this stuff day and night, and they maybe even like 1428 01:19:57.279 --> 01:20:02.520 you could say, angelic intelligences in the diamond day and night, 1429 01:20:03.039 --> 01:20:07.680 every day of the week, every hour, you know, and 1430 01:20:07.960 --> 01:20:13.319 they're just there and ancestors and we're not alone and 1431 01:20:13.359 --> 01:20:16.399 trying to figure out this stuff. And so yeah, you 1432 01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:20.239 need quietude, you need self reflection in order to hear 1433 01:20:20.680 --> 01:20:24.960 what they're trying to say and interpret it or you know, 1434 01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:27.920 if not hear it. Because I'm a Claire audience. That's 1435 01:20:27.960 --> 01:20:31.439 the only Claire Well. I mean, I think I'm quite intuitive, 1436 01:20:31.479 --> 01:20:34.159 but I'm definitely Claire audience. So I actually do when 1437 01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:37.840 I sit and meditate, have voices come through, but not 1438 01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:41.359 very often. But when they do, it's like, oh my god. 1439 01:20:42.640 --> 01:20:46.399 You know, sometimes there's one that literally screams like it's 1440 01:20:46.399 --> 01:20:52.039 like this thunderous voice, and that might, you know, suddenly 1441 01:20:52.079 --> 01:20:55.760 make me sound kind of crazy, but no, it's nothing 1442 01:20:55.800 --> 01:20:59.880 like that for crazy. 1443 01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:02.359 Totally safe. 1444 01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:03.640 This is a safe space. 1445 01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:12.399 Definitely. You guys are the others finding the others. So yeah, 1446 01:21:11.960 --> 01:21:14.640 I think that we're not alone in trying to figure 1447 01:21:14.680 --> 01:21:18.439 out all this stuff, and so there you know, there 1448 01:21:18.439 --> 01:21:22.359 are ways to interpret it through just connection to spirit. 1449 01:21:23.039 --> 01:21:24.960 What's fascinating is I was just thinking about it because 1450 01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:27.239 right now, I'm an anime nerd. I don't know if 1451 01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:29.439 you know that, but I'm an anime nerd, and I 1452 01:21:29.840 --> 01:21:33.439 there's an anime out there called JJK, and there's these 1453 01:21:33.520 --> 01:21:36.279 cursed spirits in JJK. But what some of the and 1454 01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:37.479 it made me think of it because of what Jin 1455 01:21:37.600 --> 01:21:41.840 said is that we're trying to cultivate our own internal 1456 01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:44.880 power to be able to move through the world. That 1457 01:21:44.960 --> 01:21:47.520 kind of thing, and those some of those images that 1458 01:21:47.560 --> 01:21:50.640 you've put into that last tarot deck we were looking 1459 01:21:50.680 --> 01:21:53.439 at to actually look like something like they call shikagami, 1460 01:21:53.800 --> 01:21:55.680 and it's some of those characters have the ability to 1461 01:21:55.760 --> 01:22:01.159 take in these like cursed spirits that have a negative 1462 01:22:01.159 --> 01:22:07.439 connotation but use them for positive light air like positivity 1463 01:22:07.520 --> 01:22:09.600 in battle. And so in a lot of anime, it's 1464 01:22:09.640 --> 01:22:12.920 like you're always battling the evil doers. But if you 1465 01:22:13.039 --> 01:22:16.279 take that and you like like personalize that, it's like, 1466 01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:19.880 how can I use these cursed spirits right? And I 1467 01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:22.680 don't want to like interact and like make it seem 1468 01:22:22.680 --> 01:22:24.720 like I'm talking about like the gatia or something like that. 1469 01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:27.119 I was just going to say, it sounds me memoric, 1470 01:22:27.199 --> 01:22:33.640 but with the binding, you know, the demon and the only. 1471 01:22:33.439 --> 01:22:35.560 Reason I wasn't wanting to link it to that was 1472 01:22:35.600 --> 01:22:38.800 just because it's got such awful connotations at times in 1473 01:22:38.920 --> 01:22:39.359 different things. 1474 01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:40.479 But that's exactly what it is. 1475 01:22:40.479 --> 01:22:43.680 You're binding these spirits, and certain families and lineages have 1476 01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:47.640 the ability to use these cursed techniques to be able 1477 01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:50.720 to bind them and then use them at their will. 1478 01:22:51.000 --> 01:22:53.720 And then interesting enough, if they're destroyed in battle, they're 1479 01:22:53.760 --> 01:22:55.720 actually like completely destroyed in that. 1480 01:22:55.880 --> 01:22:57.399 But it's uh, it's an. 1481 01:22:57.279 --> 01:23:03.840 Interesting how to you is like modern myths, like I 1482 01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:06.119 would call a lot of these like things that are 1483 01:23:06.119 --> 01:23:08.840 coming out in the anime world, comic book world and 1484 01:23:08.960 --> 01:23:15.520 those different things for positive reinforcement of understanding your interfeers, 1485 01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:19.560 you know. And I think what's cool about the decks 1486 01:23:19.560 --> 01:23:23.159 that you're producing is that then you are able to 1487 01:23:23.319 --> 01:23:26.720 put them illustrating something that most people will never see, 1488 01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:30.800 like you know, like the rodin work and these different things, 1489 01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:34.199 and now they are out in the social cultural area 1490 01:23:34.199 --> 01:23:36.720 where you can just buy them and then play with 1491 01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:39.920 them and then have a conversation with them. 1492 01:23:40.199 --> 01:23:42.239 Yeah, I love that this ended up being a mass 1493 01:23:42.279 --> 01:23:46.399 market deck just because you know, it's it's wonderful to like, 1494 01:23:46.439 --> 01:23:50.199 because I loved it as a more indie esoteric feel 1495 01:23:50.239 --> 01:23:52.439 when I created it. But to think that they wanted 1496 01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:56.840 to put that out there mass market was exceptionally cool 1497 01:23:56.880 --> 01:24:01.199 because they're dark and I love dark stuff. You know, 1498 01:24:02.039 --> 01:24:05.600 it's uh, it's gonna be it's dark but in lightning 1499 01:24:05.640 --> 01:24:07.880 at the same time it let's that like that change, 1500 01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:10.680 you know, that's that's a little chink that lights. Let's 1501 01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:13.000 the light in you know. That's what these images are 1502 01:24:13.039 --> 01:24:16.800 for me. Yeah, in a lot of ways. 1503 01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:18.800 Yeah, that's beautiful. 1504 01:24:21.039 --> 01:24:24.239 Uh, Gin or Matt, did you guys have any else 1505 01:24:24.279 --> 01:24:29.000 that you wanted to ask to talk about? All Right, 1506 01:24:29.039 --> 01:24:30.880 we're almost at an hour and a half. I think 1507 01:24:30.920 --> 01:24:33.039 maybe we could wrap it up here. Is there anything 1508 01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:36.199 Antashia that you wanted to add or say before you 1509 01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:40.159 know about your deck or anything before Let's see. 1510 01:24:40.319 --> 01:24:46.039 Well, right now, the Sublime Thresholds Tarot is just in 1511 01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:50.479 its second printing and so that's still like available as 1512 01:24:50.520 --> 01:24:55.880 a late pledge on Kickstarter or for Etsy pre order, 1513 01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:00.800 But otherwise I think we've kind of gone into like 1514 01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:04.279 what I've put out there a few of them anyway, 1515 01:25:04.800 --> 01:25:07.119 and I would love it if people wanted to check 1516 01:25:07.159 --> 01:25:09.239 me out on Instagram and see more of what I do. 1517 01:25:10.000 --> 01:25:14.359 I will put that in the show notes, right And 1518 01:25:15.520 --> 01:25:18.239 I think all of you it's been really fun exploration 1519 01:25:18.439 --> 01:25:22.159 and it's great to see you. And yeah, I hope 1520 01:25:22.159 --> 01:25:24.319 we can go further down the road sometime. I'm going 1521 01:25:24.359 --> 01:25:26.800 to be putting that some Fematon sim Bola book out 1522 01:25:27.159 --> 01:25:31.399 at some point, so yeah, maybe we can get together again. 1523 01:25:31.560 --> 01:25:33.399 Oh no, definitely, I would like to definitely have another 1524 01:25:33.399 --> 01:25:35.640 conversation with you in the future, even I mean, I 1525 01:25:35.640 --> 01:25:37.000 know we kind of talked about it a little bit now, 1526 01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:38.359 but even in the future, if you wanted to come 1527 01:25:38.359 --> 01:25:40.439 back for the deck that they did some me, we 1528 01:25:40.439 --> 01:25:43.760 could go a little bit more into that actually, so 1529 01:25:44.119 --> 01:25:47.199 that's always a possibility. But yeah, sure, definitely, will definitely 1530 01:25:47.239 --> 01:25:49.399 keep in touch. Thank you very much for coming on. 1531 01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:51.079 That really was an awesome chat. I really had a 1532 01:25:51.159 --> 01:25:53.680 lot of fun. It was very interesting. Again, I'm not 1533 01:25:53.680 --> 01:25:55.439 too much into taro, so it was nice like hearing 1534 01:25:55.479 --> 01:25:56.960 your take on it and stuff. 1535 01:25:57.199 --> 01:25:58.279 Appreciate it so much. 1536 01:25:58.479 --> 01:26:01.000 Yes, And before we wrap it up, I guess we'll 1537 01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:04.079 have everybody real quick. Just plug this stuff again. Judith, 1538 01:26:04.239 --> 01:26:07.560 if you're there, would you like to plug your show. 1539 01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:09.760 I'm sorry about that. 1540 01:26:10.359 --> 01:26:13.239 Patasha, it was very nice meeting you and hearing your 1541 01:26:13.279 --> 01:26:17.039 perspective on the Taro. It was very enlightening for me. 1542 01:26:18.399 --> 01:26:21.359 You could catch me on the Loon on YouTube and 1543 01:26:21.479 --> 01:26:25.840 on x as the Loon. Thank you very much again 1544 01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:26.439 for having me. 1545 01:26:26.720 --> 01:26:28.399 Of course it is no thank you for coming on 1546 01:26:29.319 --> 01:26:31.920 and we got Gin the Ninja Friday. Gin. 1547 01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:36.359 Thank you so much. Boss. Well, I'll just say thank 1548 01:26:36.359 --> 01:26:37.319 you so much. To Talkia. 1549 01:26:37.399 --> 01:26:40.000 It was awesome, was I You know, it's cool to 1550 01:26:40.359 --> 01:26:42.880 because even though I said I wasn't into taro and 1551 01:26:42.920 --> 01:26:45.560 I'm not really, it does. Actually it's good for me 1552 01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:48.000 to hear people like you who aren't so fixed to 1553 01:26:48.000 --> 01:26:50.159 the traditional systems, is what I also think what Nick 1554 01:26:50.239 --> 01:26:53.199 was saying, So they can actually you can think expansively 1555 01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:54.960 about it and you can be like, yeah, okay, maybe 1556 01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:56.840 I'm not that great at it, maybe I don't know 1557 01:26:56.880 --> 01:26:59.520 that much about it, but there's nothing wrong with playing 1558 01:26:59.520 --> 01:27:02.600 with the dak. There is nothing wrong with seeing how 1559 01:27:02.640 --> 01:27:05.720 the archetypes fit or what you sort of attribute to 1560 01:27:05.960 --> 01:27:07.960 the traditional depictions. 1561 01:27:08.039 --> 01:27:10.520 So yeah, I think that's super important. Thank you. 1562 01:27:10.560 --> 01:27:13.479 No, so that definitely that definitely shook me up. So 1563 01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:16.479 thank you so much, appreciate that. And then of course. 1564 01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:19.680 I what do I do? 1565 01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:21.359 Okay, So I have Threshold Saints. You can check that 1566 01:27:21.399 --> 01:27:25.239 out Spotify and Apple. Two episodes with Satschke, who is 1567 01:27:25.720 --> 01:27:29.920 he developed a quantum crystal computer based on nineties technology, 1568 01:27:30.079 --> 01:27:33.359 so it's very exciting, uh time. And he's a cabalist 1569 01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:38.399 and a musician and artist and a true anime nerd. 1570 01:27:38.640 --> 01:27:42.039 And we talked about everything from like guns to gunplot 1571 01:27:42.119 --> 01:27:46.439 to everything. So basically you can check those out. That'll 1572 01:27:46.479 --> 01:27:49.279 be dropping next week and then we'll have a we'll 1573 01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:51.560 probably have a grey Lodge again. We just had one, 1574 01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:54.279 but we'll probably have one this coming Friday as well. 1575 01:27:55.079 --> 01:27:57.720 Even if it's just me or just me and Matt 1576 01:27:57.840 --> 01:28:00.760 or just me and Joshua or whomever, it'll be cool. 1577 01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:03.520 And so thank you, Thank you guys. And I always 1578 01:28:03.560 --> 01:28:07.560 appreciate doing these roundtables. I think it's really fun and expansive. 1579 01:28:08.239 --> 01:28:12.359 Yeah, definitely definitely had a good time. And Matt, real quick, 1580 01:28:12.359 --> 01:28:13.760 I know you got a bounce. I just realized that 1581 01:28:13.800 --> 01:28:15.279 now because it's perfect time up. 1582 01:28:17.119 --> 01:28:21.119 Yes, so Natasia, very nice to meet you, very nice 1583 01:28:21.119 --> 01:28:24.560 to hear from your perspectives and as always I love 1584 01:28:24.800 --> 01:28:27.880 talking about carrot, so it was really fun. And yeah, 1585 01:28:27.920 --> 01:28:30.920 you can always find me as at Medmore nineteen on 1586 01:28:31.079 --> 01:28:36.520 all socials. That's going to be x, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Telegram, 1587 01:28:36.640 --> 01:28:39.840 which maybe some other place. There's also my website that's 1588 01:28:39.880 --> 01:28:42.239 going to be Cabala dot com k A A B 1589 01:28:42.439 --> 01:28:45.119 A L A h dot com. You can find out 1590 01:28:45.119 --> 01:28:49.239 what I do, their services, apps, anything else. Also, you 1591 01:28:49.279 --> 01:28:52.239 can just chat with me through the website. Now there's 1592 01:28:52.279 --> 01:28:54.640 a little pop up thing. It reaches my DM so 1593 01:28:54.680 --> 01:28:58.000 I can answer pretty quickly actually, so anythink just let 1594 01:28:58.079 --> 01:29:00.520 me know through there or through the other websites. 1595 01:29:02.319 --> 01:29:03.239 Thank you very much, Matt. 1596 01:29:03.239 --> 01:29:05.760 I always appreciate you jumping on the show and let's 1597 01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:08.079 been not at least Brandon, please let everyone know what's up. 1598 01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:10.880 Thank you, Nick, thank you for always having me on. Nick, 1599 01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:14.479 I truly appreciate it. To this place is amazing, a 1600 01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:19.319 round table of like minds and also minds that are different, 1601 01:29:19.439 --> 01:29:21.960 which is then how you actually can move the needle 1602 01:29:21.960 --> 01:29:25.039 a little bit in this strange world. And Tashia it 1603 01:29:25.119 --> 01:29:29.119 was amazing to meet you. Yeah, I'm your work and 1604 01:29:29.279 --> 01:29:32.239 putting these things out here. I think it's a net 1605 01:29:32.279 --> 01:29:35.119 positive for the community as well as the world. 1606 01:29:35.800 --> 01:29:37.399 So much appreciated. Thanks Brandon. 1607 01:29:37.520 --> 01:29:41.199 Yeah, of course it's fantastic and good luck continuing that 1608 01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:44.159 and everyone out there. When you listen to this, make 1609 01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:47.399 sure you after this, after looking through all the beautiful 1610 01:29:47.520 --> 01:29:51.479 things that Nick has produced in Occult Rejects, make sure 1611 01:29:51.520 --> 01:29:53.720 to head on over to magas in the media where 1612 01:29:53.720 --> 01:29:56.560 we break down all of the things that need to 1613 01:29:56.600 --> 01:29:59.640 be broken down in such a beautiful way of the 1614 01:29:59.760 --> 01:30:02.279 so tek mythological and philosophical. 1615 01:30:02.319 --> 01:30:04.119 I've got all the stuff, So go. 1616 01:30:04.119 --> 01:30:07.279 To your tiktoks and your ex's and your eg or 1617 01:30:07.319 --> 01:30:11.399 ig or Instagram's or whatever it is, and we're trying 1618 01:30:11.520 --> 01:30:15.079 to do the thing. Thank you so much for this 1619 01:30:15.560 --> 01:30:16.439 beautiful moment. 1620 01:30:17.000 --> 01:30:18.920 Of course, thank you, man. I gotta I gotta definitely 1621 01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:20.960 leave you for the last guy. Now, well, that was amazing. 1622 01:30:21.279 --> 01:30:22.199 Thank you. 1623 01:30:22.199 --> 01:30:26.920 You promoted my stuff more than I do. Thanks Natasha, 1624 01:30:26.960 --> 01:30:28.520 Thank you so much for coming on again. Like I 1625 01:30:28.520 --> 01:30:30.319 really had a good time. It was awesome talk and 1626 01:30:30.359 --> 01:30:31.600 I really hopefully we. 1627 01:30:31.600 --> 01:30:32.439 Have more in the future. 1628 01:30:33.039 --> 01:30:35.079 And uh, I guess that is the end of another 1629 01:30:35.119 --> 01:30:38.439 recall reject and until the next one, everybody be well later, 1630 01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:39.399 thank you.