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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to Life is a Gamble. I

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know you've missed me. It's been a while since our

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last episode, but I am back and Life is a

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Gamble is the podcast where we talk about life scambles.

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But today we are talking to someone who is literally

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in the gambling business. My guest today is Nigel Eccles,

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who was one of the founders of FanDuel. So let's

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get right into it. Nigel Echls, Welcome to Life as

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a Gamble.

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Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I'm very interested in how you. First of all,

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most people know you from FanDuel, but that was not

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your original startup or your original company, and I'm wondering

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what your background was and what led to that first company.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, well, like being in online gaming since two

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thousand So the very first company I joined was a

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company called Flutter dot com and it merged with Betfair

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in two thousand and one, and that today is Flutter Entertainment,

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which is the parent company of vandel. I relaunched a

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betting exchange called bat Doc in two thousand and three

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and it's still operational today. It's a batting exchange at

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BSI Dublin and then Fando actually started in two thousand

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and seven as a prediction market, which you know, funnily enough,

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for ten years I had to explain to people what

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that was. And obviously polymarket did so well and last

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year that I don't have to do that anymore. So

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Hubbub originally was a prediction market. It did very well

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in two thousand and yet it did last well immediately

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after the election because people aren't as interested anymore, and

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that's when we pivoted in two thousand and nine to

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becoming fan bill.

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Speaker 1: What was your educational background before going to work for Oh, yeah, educational,

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So I studied pure mathematics and military operation research.

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Speaker 2: So my first degree was in pure mathematics, my second

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degree was in operational research.

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Speaker 1: And were you drawn to games and gambling before you

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got into.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been like I like, I've always liked gambling.

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I've always find it fascinating. Given my mass background, I've

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always found they start of mass behind it really interesting,

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and so probability was something that I've always been fascinated by,

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and so whenever I started working, I was just drawn

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to that sector. I was like, Wow, this isn't me

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is and it's I always sort of think it's fascinating that,

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you know, in the gaming industry, you you create your

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own product. You're actually what I when I really thought

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about recently is you're the opposite of insurance company. And

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insurance is you know, they are like as a gambling company,

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you sell variants, right, you know, so people, you know,

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people for people at whose life are just too boring

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and too you know, like not enough stuff happens. You know,

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they have a lot of consistency. They want to buy variance.

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Their buyers a variants, and there's a gamblant company. You're

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a seller variants. Obviously. The insurance is the other way Ryan,

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which is people that you know, my life is too risky,

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you know, like and yes there's certain things you know,

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and to ensure your harget you know, getting smashed or

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your life, you want to you want to you want

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to sell variants, right, But I think it's really interested

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in the gaming companies. You know, you create and sell variance,

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and then all the different types of companies are different

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forms of variants that we sell. And so that just

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drew me into the business in two thousand when I started,

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and you know, I've always come by even though I've

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left the industry twice, I've always come back to it

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because I just loved that that aspect of the business.

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Speaker 1: Did you gamble yourself? Did you? Or do you go yourself?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I know I've gambled since I was a teenager.

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I remember the first horse ever won, which is I

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think it was, well, I know the horse was West Tip,

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which was a gray won the Grand National. I think

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it was an eighty seven. So I was like cover

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thirteen and I had a pint on it. And I

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won sixteen times from sixteen to one, and you know,

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I was at the moment, I was like, wow, it

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was amazing, but I like it was you know, I

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always sort of threw. I've always started being fascinated. You know,

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I was always fascinated. And I had friends at university

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would go to casinos and they would have systems, and

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I was like, yeah, that doesn't work, like and and

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but I was always fast by the systems, and so like, yes,

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I've always been interested. And I've always been interested in

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from a sort of puzzle perspective, like how can you

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beat it? Like what are the things you can beat?

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And so, you know, horse racing silly, interesting and sports

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Patty because it is beatable. You know, blackjack, you can

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card kind but even casino games, you know, are interested

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in the systems there, like even if the game is unbeatable.

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You know, how does a Martin Gale change your hai phenomena?

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Like I I played blackjack a lot. I go to

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see how played blackjack. I know that it's ev negative

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for me, But you know I have ways that I

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play it that you know, I like the you know

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that it'll you know, you know means that I know

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in the long run, I'm gonna lose, But you know

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I sn't play it well it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you at least learn basic strategy and

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you're giving up less than one percent, right.

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Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, it's it's a that's a for me,

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it's a yeah, it's a pretty good you know, uh,

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your your cost of enter kimment is pretty low.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly, it's a little bit worse.

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Speaker 2: You live.

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Speaker 1: Where do you live?

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Speaker 2: I'm where in New York?

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Speaker 1: Oh? You're in New York.

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: For some reason I thought you were in No.

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Speaker 2: No, No. Originally British, originally from Northern Ireland, but I

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moved to New York about nine years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know my kids as they were growing up,

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I would preach to them constantly them and their friends.

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Math is where the money is. And as long as

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you really, as long as you understand the concepts of

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ev and some basic probability, you will find ways to

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make money. So what was your job when you first

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went to work for a flutter?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I was a product manager for.

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Speaker 1: Flutter and and so what was the impetus then? So

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you first just went into the prediction market, So what

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was the impetus for that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so Flutter was interesting. When I joined Flutter,

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the idea find Flutter was more of like an eBay

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of betting. You know, people could create all these different

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types of bats and treated them of other people. Batfair

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was their main competitor. Batfair is a betting exchange. You

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could kind of think of it as like what Robin

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Hood is doing, you know, sports betting contracts at the moment.

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And that was a real innovation. And what we figured

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out was that the Batfair model was a dramatically better

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than the Flutter model. And so through the period of

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two thousand and one, we hevotted Flutter to becoming an exchange.

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And that's why they ended up marging, because they were

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essentially it's the end product. In two thousand and eight,

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when we had launched hub dub, which was our prediction market,

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just very similar to polymarket, we sort of felt that

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all of these news stories, we felt that prediction markets

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were kind of truth seeking machines, you know, that they

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would be not only the people who wanted to beat it,

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but would be really interesting to the people that just

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wanted the information, like who is the fearv ofite, Like

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you know, who who's going to win? Like kind of

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give that information. And we find that, like you know,

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oftentimes the news media will report something as significant and

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you'll go and check the batting market and nothing changed

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and not tells you that because the news media their

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job is to create news and pretend that something is

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significant dramatically. What we discovered was that, you know, this

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is a newsic's nothing did happen, and so that that's

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so we we created the prediction market because that's what

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we wanted to tackle. And what we discovered was that

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prediction marks are brilliant for elections, Like they're just you know,

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like particularly US elections, so many people are fascinated by it.

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And so many people have an opinion. A lot of

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those people have money that they're willing to put behind

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those opinions. And so it worked really well right up

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until the election, and then immediately afterwards, you know, that

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sort of dried up. And what we discovered was that

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outside of the election, the biggest category by far was sports.

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And so that's why whenever we sort of were finished

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with hubdub, we we basically said, well, what will we

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do next? And we said, you know what, we should

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focus on sports. We know how to build really good

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prediction games, and that's how we pivoted and delfandom.

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Speaker 1: So you were working for Flutter still.

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Speaker 2: When you oh no, no, no, I left. No, that was

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a long later. So Flutter was sort of two thousand

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and two thousand to two thousand and two. Hubdub wasn't.

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We didn't start in a two thousand and seven, and

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then we ran a two thousand and eight and we

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launched fund on two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So so at that point you were on your own.

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It was you and your wife, am I correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my wife, and we had three other co founders.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you knew you wanted it to be sports,

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and initially it was just fantasy well yes, snap decision.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well so you know, it's funny like I was

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in the UK at the time, where you could sports bat,

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but in the US you couldn't. It was only like

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one state was Nevada. You could sports bat in the US,

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and we always thought that was weird. But there was

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a law called the Unlawful Internet Gaming Enforcement Act with

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US in two thousand and three that like sort of

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kicked out a lot of poker operators, but in it

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was a carve oute for fantasy sports. And I remember

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the actual language. It was like, you know, you know,

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fantasy sports is a game where it's a statistical accumulation

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of points, blah blah blah blah blah. And I remember

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being on a flight and just reading it and going, Okay, well,

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there's there's nothing here that says that a fantasy sports

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game has to last like the entire season. And you know,

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there's nothing here that says And I'm like, we could

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build a game that's a lot faster and a lot

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more fun and exciting than traditional fantasy sports, but we're

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still within the letter of the law. The letter of

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the law is written here we're going to stay within

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this and uh and we're gonna build that game, and

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we think that's gonna be a lot more fun than

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what people are currently playing on. Like, yeah, you're ESPN.

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That was the idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well certainly your timing could not have been better.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, you know, it's interesting, you know, and I've

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sort of thought a lot about timing. It's you know,

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there's an interesting question if we hadn't done it with

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somebody else, I've done it, like, you know, did we

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create that or and I don't actually know, you know,

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when we created it, there was a couple of other games,

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but it was only whenever we started to be successful

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that we see an explosion of competition. Like, you know,

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we launched two thousand and nine, there was one Draft

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Street launch not that long after Draft Kings was twenty twelve,

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but really and then there was one hundred other competitors

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launched that period, but they were largely sort of drift,

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you know, drifting about off what we were building, which

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was they saw like whenever we started a lot of

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people thought we were crazy, Like peop were like it's

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not a real big business, like you know, like people

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you know, like but it was only when we started

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raising you know, ten fifteen, twenty seventy million dollars, so

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many people are like, wow, this is a really big business.

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And then it became you know, and then where the

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timing was really good was you know, if we started

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that launched out in two thousand and nine, by twenty eighteen,

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so nine years later. Here it was a brand that

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had huge brand awareness and millions of users and we

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had five hundred people, and that put us in an

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incredible position whenever sports betting became legal that we then

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could take that brand and go boom, we can be

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number one. And Fandal has become pretty much number one

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in every state in the US when it's opened up,

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you know, so it's basically gone in and and it's

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just really because they had such a brand, depth to

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brand and and and user base that to give them

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such a huge, you know, huge advantage.

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Speaker 1: Well, and they were, yeah, they were so well positioned

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to get into regular gambling, in internet gambling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So here he had fantasy sports, which you know,

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in a lot of ways is very very similar to

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like regular sports patting. It was to see him user

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bas it was a very similar user behavior and the

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brand was you know, very much connected with the people

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who would be sports betting. You know, they were seeing

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in ESPN. So going from fantasy sports to sports betting

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was a very small staff, whereas you know somebody like

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MGM or Caesars who think, oh, we know gambling, but

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sports fans didn't really associate them with sports batting like

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they you know, they didn't see them in ESPN. They

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were like, you know, MGM is a casino in Vegas.

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It's you know, it's something to do with you know,

250
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the Wizard of Oz. It's really nice. It's not like

251
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it's not like it's not an app I would have

252
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my phone, and so that just gives FanDuel and Draftking.

253
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It's just huge advantage whenever that market opened up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm one of the things that surprises me. And

255
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maybe you were gone from FanDuel by the time these

256
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discussions happened. But I live in Las Vegas and I'm

257
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just shocked that fan Duel is not here. And I

258
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know they have to have a brick and mortar casino, yes,

259
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but it would be nothing for them to buy one.

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They don't have to have a big one, right they can.

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Speaker 2: It's Hilaire. Honestly, I feel the Nevada game authorities massively

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screwed this one up, like they you know, I went

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and saw them. I went to see them in the

264
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summer I think it was twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen,

265
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and we were called in front of them, and I

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remember the panel, and I remember actually being really impressed.

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Like one of the panel was saying, you know, Apple

268
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has got a million developers working on their platform, and

269
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in Vegas we have three million suppliers like you know,

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IGT Scientific Games. And they were like, if we don't

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start to innovate and welcome more people in the industry,

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we're gonna get left behind. And I was like, amazing,

273
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this is like these guys get it, like they want innovation.

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And we ended that session and they said, look we

275
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you know, we want you guys in Vegas and so

276
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like you know, this is all you have to do,

277
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and it's like come by a casino. It was just

278
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like you know, you know, and here we are, like

279
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,320
you know today in Vegas, how many suppliers in Vegas

280
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,000
have today like to see him as they had like

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00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,919
ten years ago, right, And so I think Vegas, I

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think Nevada short of felt you know, we're the number

283
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one in gaming. You have to be in Nevada if

284
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you want to be a serious player. And you know,

285
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,519
we tried in twenty sixteen. I know the found on

286
00:16:23,639 --> 00:16:26,840
DraftKings since then has tried to kind of work for Vegas.

287
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They'd love to be in Nevada, and they Nevada. I

288
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just think, you know, I don't know, in those early days,

289
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I think it was maybe arrogance. I just don't know

290
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why they haven't sort of realized that the world has changed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you're you're absolutely right, and it is arrogance.

292
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And they shot themselves in the foot because for sports betters,

293
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Nevada is now the worst state.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, sports on my phone? God, Like, yeah, you can't.

295
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Speaker 1: You can't use a computer. Yeah, And to to sign

296
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,639
up and put money in the account, you have to

297
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physically go to a casino, which I'm crazy.

298
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Speaker 2: And I understand, like there they feel their job is

299
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to protect the physical casino. But there comes a point

300
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,319
where you're like, you know, like you know, MGM. Caesar's

301
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,720
actually you know, they're Tier three players, but they've done

302
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:23,119
pretty well. Like you can't stand in the way of

303
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,759
innovation of that not when you have customers going like

304
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,720
this is how I want to play, to kind of

305
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,680
create these artificial rules, and that's not essentially what they did.

306
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,119
And so yeah, I think it was a huge mistake.

307
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,720
And yeah, like I think it's you know, it's what

308
00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:45,079
we've seen is like an explosion of gaming around the US,

309
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and Nevada is sort of like the you know, and

310
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I guess Nevada in a lot of ways has sort

311
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of pivoted become more of a like an entertainment destination

312
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and less of a gambling destination. That's worked, but you know,

313
00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,039
they kind of could have a both.

314
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And and the people running the

315
00:18:05,079 --> 00:18:09,920
casinos now really are not coming from a gaming background

316
00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:12,839
and and you know, it used to be that the

317
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,160
gambling drove everything else, right, and now it's sort of

318
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,319
a you know, redheaded stepchild or something.

319
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's definitely like we always fuse sports betting

320
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,000
in Nevada as being a like as a not as

321
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,440
a profit center, and more as a you know, required

322
00:18:31,559 --> 00:18:35,799
service to like service the VIPs. Whereas you know, we

323
00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:38,039
always felt that, you know, sports betting was going to

324
00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:40,359
be front and center, like we weren't we weren't just

325
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:41,599
using it as a way to get you to the

326
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,480
high you know, the slots tables.

327
00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. When did you end up leaving

328
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:50,000
fan Duel?

329
00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:52,359
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So I left Fondo end of just end

330
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:58,559
of twenty seventeen, started twenty eighteen, actually just before pastpos repealed.

331
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,039
I like, I'd love being startups, and you know, but

332
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,599
that's steven the end this company. I'd get very very big,

333
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,920
and so I left and started to do some you know,

334
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,839
really interesting other startup and like in in like in

335
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:23,599
music and social media, e sports. It's a real kind

336
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of mixture of other verticals. For I actually try to

337
00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:30,720
just get totally as far away from gaming as possible.

338
00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:33,039
I was like, you know what, you know, I don't

339
00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:35,680
want my entire career to be gaming. And what I

340
00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:39,680
discovered with those other verticals was that I actually really

341
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,880
messed gaming. It was the vertical that I you know,

342
00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:48,799
and really love, and so I by twenty twenty one,

343
00:19:49,599 --> 00:19:52,279
so only I guess four years later, I was like

344
00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:54,640
back into gaming and I was like, Okay, I you know,

345
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,559
I've still got a few things I really want to

346
00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:00,839
do in this in this sector, and I've really enjoyed

347
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,640
being back in the category.

348
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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right back. Okay,

349
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we are back with Nigel eccles. Do you still have

350
00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:14,480
the music and the sports that you started?

351
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,880
Speaker 2: So there was there was kind of three different so

352
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,279
it was like social media. There was a music business,

353
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,519
and then there was cards, the music and card business,

354
00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,480
and we sold and the card business is still operational.

355
00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:38,559
Really interesting verticals. Both sort of had a very crazy

356
00:20:38,599 --> 00:20:41,680
twenty twenty one web, so like everyone went great and

357
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,000
then everyone went terrible, and so for both businesses, we

358
00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:50,279
saw this incredible twenty twenty one spike and then and

359
00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:53,480
then things kind of website in twenty twenty two, twenty three,

360
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:57,680
and so those businesses then we ended up selling on.

361
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,880
Speaker 1: I saw you made a comment on Twitter recently. They

362
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:08,960
were there was a tweet about, uh, the increased revenue

363
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:12,960
at fan Duel, and your com was basically that the

364
00:21:13,079 --> 00:21:17,079
betters have gotten stupider, uh, which I agree with you.

365
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:18,920
But could you expand on that? Yeah?

366
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 2: No, I thought that would would generate a little bit

367
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,640
of a response. And it was funny like somebody was like,

368
00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:29,039
are you serious, and I was like, actually I am,

369
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,519
And I'll tell you why. So Number one, I think

370
00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:37,680
Better is a stupider for two reasons, maybe three reasons.

371
00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:41,359
The first one's fairly simple, which was, you know, pre passed.

372
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,960
But the people who were betting in Vegas were were

373
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,920
a lot of them were sharps. You know, they were

374
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,160
really focused on it. They weren't. It wasn't as recreational,

375
00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:52,880
and so the money was sharper. And even today, I

376
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,920
think the money in Vegas is sharper. Today We've got

377
00:21:57,079 --> 00:21:59,240
everybody and you know they have they may have very

378
00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:02,240
strong opinion, but they they're not. They're not. They're not good.

379
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:07,519
Better is necessarily But then the two other factors are this.

380
00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:11,759
So the second factor is that if you're a profitable

381
00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:16,279
better on a fanueil DraftKings, you've been banned are limited, right,

382
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,079
And obviously a lot of people are very aware of that,

383
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,039
and so by definition the sharps are gone. They're not

384
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,880
on fandoil DraftKings. That's why Vandel has gonna. It's one

385
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,079
of the reasons Vandel has got a fifteen percent margin.

386
00:22:31,599 --> 00:22:37,599
And the third reason then is parlays. From an Evy perspective,

387
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:43,279
a parlay is a dramatically worse bad but consumers love them, right,

388
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:45,799
and consumers love lotteries. So I'm not I'm not saying

389
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:49,160
that they're idiots. I'm just saying that they're you know,

390
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,559
they're like if their intention is to like make money,

391
00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:55,640
but this is not this is not a great way

392
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,400
of going about it.

393
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I mean, as you said at the beginning,

394
00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:01,200
they want to buy variants.

395
00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:01,759
Speaker 2: I want to buy.

396
00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:08,799
Speaker 1: And when the company prepackages a you know, in game parlay,

397
00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:13,200
that's going to pay them you know, fifty to one,

398
00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:16,400
you know, but it's minus twenty five percent to them. Yeah,

399
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,359
they don't care, they want to but I have to disagreement.

400
00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 2: I've interviewed consumers and you know, I remember one guy

401
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,799
saying to me, and I was like, why do you

402
00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:28,079
play a parlay? You realize this thing is like when

403
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,920
did a thirty percent margin? And he said, he said,

404
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,400
what should I did? I was like, you know, like

405
00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:34,759
you know, like it's straight at bat's like even stuff.

406
00:23:34,759 --> 00:23:37,480
And he said, so I go in, I put fifty

407
00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:42,960
bucks done and I win fifty bucks. He's like, why

408
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,000
how is that going to change my weekend? Right? Like,

409
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,839
you know, why why is it with anybody remotely excited

410
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,359
about that? And I was like, now you put it

411
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,359
like that, I kind of get I do kind of

412
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,839
get it, like it's your you know, And that's the

413
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,400
way they view it. It's like a lottery ticket and

414
00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:02,480
you know, straight that just isn't going to do it

415
00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:05,920
for them. They need to see something that's really going

416
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,319
to move the dial. And and that's why, like they

417
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,359
you know, they don't think in terms of ev They think,

418
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:14,359
you know, if I win, I win, and if I lose,

419
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:18,400
like you know, it's it's it's discretion the capital. So yeah,

420
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,559
that's why they love Parlais. Yeah.

421
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,279
Speaker 1: I have to disagree with you though about the sharps.

422
00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,240
They definitely are still on FanDuel and draft gis.

423
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:28,839
Speaker 2: Yes, maybe, yeah, there there definitely are are a few

424
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,680
that they're maybe not treating under their own names.

425
00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it's a constant cat and mouse game

426
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,680
not having account skit yeah.

427
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, now there are But I you know,

428
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,559
the books are pretty good at catch and that stuff,

429
00:24:43,559 --> 00:24:46,680
Like they're pretty good, and that's you know, like it's

430
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,920
always going to be cat and mice.

431
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: But you know, I've seen some of the stuff behind

432
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,640
the scenes, and and I'm like, yeah, like they'd see

433
00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:57,200
changes in batting patterns and it's not like you know,

434
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,920
like we operate Battex operates and India and uh, it

435
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,599
takes a lot of sharp auction and you see that

436
00:25:04,759 --> 00:25:07,400
money and you know there's no limits there.

437
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,759
Speaker 1: But that's an exchange, that's.

438
00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, a totally different business model. But there's you

439
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,000
know a lot of very sharp auction there.

440
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, and they don't have to hide it.

441
00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 2: I don't know they don't.

442
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:28,599
Speaker 1: Did you ever, you know there there are books, you know,

443
00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:32,160
sharp books who will take all the action and not

444
00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:36,519
limit people. Did you did you ever consider going that route?

445
00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: Or so?

446
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: What were you not that?

447
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: I wasn't. I was whenever you know, those decisions are

448
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,319
be ADMD. But what I will say is if I

449
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,599
was no, And you know, for a very simple reason

450
00:25:50,759 --> 00:25:55,960
is that if you're going to be the mass market

451
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,599
consumer product that Fondo had the opportunity to be on

452
00:25:59,799 --> 00:26:03,720
a is today, it is much more profitable not to

453
00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:07,960
take sharp action. It's much more profitable to just you know,

454
00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:11,640
limit the sharps and put out lines that you know

455
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,160
are going to sucker the you know, the punitories. That's

456
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,480
probably the pejorative but that they want right like you know,

457
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:20,640
you're going to push on parlays, but you're not going

458
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,559
to take the sharp action because it's going to reduce

459
00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:26,960
your you know, it's going to reduce your profitability. You know.

460
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,279
The reason the reason why book makers take sharp action

461
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:35,079
and say in like India is that they don't ky see,

462
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:38,440
so they can't they couldn't limit it, right, So the

463
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,000
books there have no means of lemming, and therefore they

464
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,000
have to accept the sharp action. Right.

465
00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: But if you look at a book like Pinnacle Sports,

466
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,640
you know, they they just they have the sharpest lines

467
00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:58,119
because you know, then they make money on volume that

468
00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,119
they're not like.

469
00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: A mass mark like Onshore regulate event today and that's

470
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,720
the day is I found. I'll at this opportunity to

471
00:27:05,839 --> 00:27:08,920
be this, you know, the number one consumer brand that

472
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,720
takes money from well everybody, the mass market shall always

473
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,799
say it's much more profitable to go to the root

474
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,519
of let's limit the sharps and you know, and and

475
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,720
and take the money from the mass market. Yeah.

476
00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:29,319
Speaker 1: So your your latest venture is that hoog that's right, yeah,

477
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,640
and now and that is correct me if I'm wrong,

478
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,119
that's a crypto casino.

479
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: That is a crypto casino. It operates internationally. We don't

480
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,559
operate in the US or the UK for that matter.

481
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,759
We take deposits and you know, about a dozen different cryptocurrencies.

482
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,279
And the insight behind it was like one was that

483
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,400
when I looked at I'd always looked at the casino market,

484
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,319
and I'd always been a little bit surprised that there

485
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,319
wasn't as much innovation, Like I would look at these

486
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,279
lot games and I'd go, wow, those are the same

487
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,279
games I was playing like twenty years ago. That to

488
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,680
me was like, this is an industry that could innovation.

489
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,960
I also saw that crypto was the part of the

490
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,039
market that was showing the most innovation, right, you know,

491
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,680
provably fair games that came from crypto streaming. Massive growth

492
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,759
for slots, and it's coming from from streaming. You look

493
00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:26,799
at like you know, Instagram reels and TikTok, these are

494
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,759
all crypto casinos, and these are influencer playing these games

495
00:28:31,759 --> 00:28:35,759
and creating these storylines that are incredibly popular. Like I

496
00:28:35,799 --> 00:28:38,160
know people that follow them. We don't you know, don't

497
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,240
play casino and I don't even think of a casino,

498
00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:43,119
but they just love the you know, the whole storylines,

499
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,160
the reactions the highs and the lows, and so that

500
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,920
got me really interested to say, look, this is where

501
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,960
the innovation's happening. This is really interesting. The other thing

502
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,000
that I thought was fascinating was when we were at Fando.

503
00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:57,640
You know, in a lot of ways, we just lived

504
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,400
at the mercy of our payment provider, like you know,

505
00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:06,839
and you would be paying you know, fifteen twenty percent

506
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,799
of your you know, revenue would go to payments and

507
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,559
profondo I think it was even today. I think in

508
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,519
Q one I was like twelve and a half percent DraftKings.

509
00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:21,400
I spent five hundred million last year on payments. And

510
00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:24,160
to me, this is like this is dead money, Like

511
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,640
this is money that goes to Visa and MasterCard in

512
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,200
their shareholders. That is no, there's no benefit to the players, right,

513
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:34,240
So the player all they see is I deposit my money.

514
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,920
It turned up my kind Well, you know, the bookmaker,

515
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,559
the sportsbook didn't see all that money. And when you

516
00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:43,839
withdraw and then redeposit, then that's another four or five

517
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,279
percent gets taken eye. And so with crypto, crypto just

518
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,039
solves that problem. So and with with crypto, what we

519
00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:54,079
do is we give somebody a wall of a dress

520
00:29:54,119 --> 00:29:56,759
and they they basically send their crypto to that wall

521
00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:59,359
of the dress and boom, we get one hundred percent

522
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,359
of the money with it and seconds, and so from

523
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:06,720
the user it's like there's so we immediately save ourselves

524
00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:09,960
fifteen to twenty percent of our costs, which then we

525
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,920
can get back to our user like we do a

526
00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:15,680
rake back daily, weekly, monthly rake back to user and

527
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680
adds to about thirty percent. So most of that is

528
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,880
actually the savings we make in terms of payments that

529
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,160
we can just give directly back to the consumer and say, hey,

530
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,720
you know what, here's here's a bunch of money that

531
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:29,400
we don't actually have to pay to visa master card.

532
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,039
So that's really came. And then from the consumer experience

533
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,359
is like this is instant. You know, they basically send

534
00:30:35,359 --> 00:30:37,960
the money, it's there and they can play it immediately

535
00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:40,640
and with withdraw it. We have instant withdrawal, right, Like

536
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,440
if you're an established customer of us, when you go

537
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,039
to withdraw, it's like boom, strap back into your wallet. Wow.

538
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, not here in the US.

539
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, unfortunately, not of the US. And isn't this is it?

540
00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: Is it slots only or do you have table games

541
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:56,519
as well.

542
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: Slots live, we've dealer and.

543
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: Sportsbook is the live deal dealer. Evolution Gaming is yes.

544
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, evilution, non pragmatic do live dealer and

545
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,039
you know, very popular. We've one of the game formats

546
00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:19,119
which is a salon Preve. We had a user coming

547
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:21,039
and use in the first use of this week and

548
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,880
it's uh, it's minimum you need a minimum six thousand

549
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,400
dollars in your kind and it's minimum one thousand dollars

550
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,119
per hand. So it's your high stakes player and it's uh,

551
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:34,960
it's fun and you have a live dealer just you

552
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,400
one on one and so like it's it's a really

553
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,000
good product.

554
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah, I noticed you are following crypto, uh and

555
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:50,160
talk about it on Twitter a lot. And and how

556
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,279
do you manage your risk in terms of the fluctuation

557
00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:55,319
of the crypto?

558
00:31:56,079 --> 00:31:59,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, you well, that's actually not so bad because we

559
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:04,079
hold people's currency in crypto. So if somebody de posites

560
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:06,960
in bitcoin, we hold it in bitcoin. And so what

561
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,119
that means is if they deposit a bitcoin, which is

562
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,720
currently about one hundred thousand, and if bitcoin were to

563
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:15,680
drop by twenty percent, they would come back the next

564
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,319
day and they would still have a bitcoin, it would

565
00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:20,880
just be worth eight thousand and so, so, which is

566
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,240
what they want because if you are into crypto, you

567
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,119
want to hold it in crypto. You don't want to

568
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,400
hold it in fit and so. But it also means

569
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,160
for US is we don't have that, we don't have

570
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:32,279
to manage that liability.

571
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: So does that mean whatever coin you deposit with you

572
00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:39,519
must withdraw in the same coin.

573
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: That's correct, we posit in bitcoin, you will draw and

574
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,640
betcoin deposit in Solana, you will have draw in Salana. Yeah,

575
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,000
so that doesn't that volatility is actually you know, funnily enough,

576
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:53,759
most of her to positis actually are in stable coin.

577
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:59,920
So USDT very very popular, and I think it's you know,

578
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,519
there's obviously people whole crypto because as an investment, but

579
00:33:04,359 --> 00:33:08,839
I guess, uh, for casinos discretionary money, and so that's

580
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,160
why it's like USDT that's there that are spending money,

581
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,599
whereas you know, they're probably holding bitcoin and they don't

582
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:15,400
want to play with that.

583
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: MM So where do you see it all going? Where

584
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,319
do you see this five years from now?

585
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,839
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think I think we're going to see internationally.

586
00:33:27,559 --> 00:33:30,599
I don't like I said something before I don't think

587
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,799
we will have crypto casinos in five years time, because

588
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,720
I think all casinos will be crypto casinos, apart from

589
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:43,400
regulated ones, Like it would make huge sense for New Jersey, Pennsylvania,

590
00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:47,960
Michigan to enable crypto payments. There's three trillion dollars in

591
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,559
crypto assets, and they're highly liquid, and they're held by

592
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:54,119
people who are risk seeking. They're absolutely you know, perfect

593
00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:57,279
for a sportsbook or casino. You know. I would hope

594
00:33:57,319 --> 00:33:59,759
that you know, the regulators there would sort of say, wow,

595
00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:03,400
we you know, we should be in on this market.

596
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,599
I definitely think we get there in ten years. I

597
00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:09,920
don't know if we get there in five years under

598
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:15,039
certainly under the Trump administrations get way more favorable towards crypto,

599
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:18,000
which has been you know, a huge buron for us

600
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,320
because before, yeah, like it was like they traded crypto

601
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,679
like it was all there to fund terrorism, when really

602
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,800
people just wanted, you know, to own their own half

603
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,920
assets and be able to use them with that without

604
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,639
interference like that. Really, I think that should be protected

605
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,239
in the Constitution, and I think it probably is. But

606
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,960
so I do think that crypto is going to become

607
00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:45,239
and you know, like the other thing from them for

608
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,159
the you know on shore ones is like, why are

609
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:51,079
they paying twenty percent of their revenue not? No, two,

610
00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:53,639
you know, there's no, it's not twenty percent of the

611
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:56,440
fall twenty percent of revenue to master Card and Visa

612
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,719
who offer a really crappy right like you know, and

613
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,400
I remember like with Visa, like, you know, we have

614
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,280
a user who would deposit and the next day decide that,

615
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,440
you know what, I didn't really want to lose that money,

616
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,000
and they would do a chargeback and then it would

617
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,280
be all us to prove that that person actually had

618
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,480
really made that deposit. And I'm like that's crazy, right yeah.

619
00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

620
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,559
Speaker 2: So to me, I think over the next five years

621
00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:26,599
internationally we will see all sportsbook and casinos move really

622
00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:29,760
heavily to crypto, and then over ten years, I think

623
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,400
we'll see the onshore ones go as well. I think

624
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,320
we're going to see more of the innovation that we

625
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,199
see in the crypto space come on shore. So you know,

626
00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:41,320
we're going to see more crash games provably fair something

627
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,000
the crypto games invented, which is how do I know

628
00:35:44,039 --> 00:35:46,480
this game was fair? And it's something that we have

629
00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:50,519
but really stake invented it, which is you can they

630
00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:52,679
give you a seed free is that you can after

631
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,320
the fact prove that that game was fair, that you know,

632
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,920
they weren't changing stuff behind the scenes. And again, it's

633
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,960
just a great innovation that like I think we're going

634
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,480
to see the un happened, you know, cross the industry

635
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,360
and come on shore. Wow.

636
00:36:09,119 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating. Anyway, I really want to thank you for

637
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:18,400
taking the time with me today. Yeah, and any final thoughts.

638
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,199
Speaker 2: No, it's and great to be on the show. Yeah,

639
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,480
like we uh uh, you know, we're excited about what

640
00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:27,400
we're building. Like we you know, we also just felt

641
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,480
with bat Outs that we could bring a lot more

642
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:33,480
sort of original products and original games, which is essentially

643
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,800
what we've done. So it's uh, yeah, we're really really

644
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,280
exciting the next few years.

645
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,599
Speaker 1: Actually, now that you mentioned that, have you tried innovating

646
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:43,719
in the table game space?

647
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,639
Speaker 2: We haven't, but I'd love to. You know, it's really

648
00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:52,559
interesting in table games and we see it like you have.

649
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,199
We have really big influencers like on Instagram and on

650
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:03,360
Twitter and on TikTok that are talking about games, and

651
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,360
then you have a live dealer experience and these are

652
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,920
just like typical live dealers. What if we really could

653
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,679
combine those two. I'd love to be able to like

654
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,199
take somewhere top influencers and have them dealing with the game.

655
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,920
Oh yeah, you know, I just think there's so much

656
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,440
opportunity there, you know, and then like, you know, make

657
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,360
it much more of a party experience. Like the best

658
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,480
experience I've ever had at in Vegas is you know,

659
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,320
you're at a you're at a blackjack table and it's

660
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,199
a fun party experience. Well, you know, we could do that.

661
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,480
They just don't really get that online because normally the

662
00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:40,920
dealers are not I don't know there maybe a lot

663
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,079
of them are not hired for their personality? Shall we say?

664
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:45,280
But what if what if we did? What if we

665
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,920
need Like if you look at Peloton, look at the

666
00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:52,079
people who do the Peloton coaches, they're like celebrities. Why

667
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:55,119
aren't these dealers like more Niam, Like I want this guy,

668
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:57,920
He's hilarious, Like that's this, you know And part of

669
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,800
the reason that their personality doesn't come through is I

670
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,400
don't think they were rewarded for it. What if what

671
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:03,079
if we could?

672
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,519
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's discouraged. Yeah, I mean so

673
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,599
when I first got out of college, I was a

674
00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:13,440
blackjack dealer here in Las Vegas, and most of the

675
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,239
casinos their attitude was dumbing up and deal the cards, right,

676
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,400
and and you know, I fortunately I worked at a

677
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,000
place where they literally hired the dealers for their personalities

678
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,960
and told us, you're here to host the players. This

679
00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,639
is a service industry. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, so the

680
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:36,440
dealers would have a great time with the player.

681
00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:38,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's like, that's what it's all about. Like

682
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,920
one of the I honestly think one of the online

683
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,199
gaming well, it's been a phenomenal growth industry for me,

684
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,960
in a way, is still failing to deliver the one

685
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:55,920
thing that offline gaming delivers, which is just that they

686
00:38:56,039 --> 00:39:00,760
that social and community experience with strangers, right, Like you know,

687
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,119
blackjack table one of the few places in America we

688
00:39:03,159 --> 00:39:05,880
can talk to a complete stranger if I think about

689
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,199
them thinking you're crazy, right, Like, that's like that to me.

690
00:39:09,519 --> 00:39:12,920
Online doesn't do that, And I think that's something that

691
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,960
we still need to like really figure out because I

692
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,480
just think that's really powerful.

693
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: Yep, I agree. Anyway, thank you again, No, thank you