Speaker 1: Okay, we're live. Hi. This is William Ramsey. Welcome to
Speaker 1: William Ramsey investigates on today's show of a very special guest.
Speaker 1: He comes to us from the UK. His name is
Speaker 1: Lawrence James and he's just put out a new edition
Speaker 1: of a book he originally published in two thousand and six.
Speaker 1: The title of this book is The Middle Class, published
Speaker 1: in April seventh, twenty twenty one. Really a fascinating book
Speaker 1: goes in very great detail about kind of the rise
Speaker 1: of the middle class in Britain. But this is not
Speaker 1: his only book. He's written eight or nine other books.
Speaker 1: He has another book coming out next year. But his
Speaker 1: first book was The Golden Warrior, The Life and Legend
Speaker 1: of Lawrence of Arabia, published nineteen ninety three. Also The
Speaker 1: Rise and Fall of the British Empire nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: raj The Making and Unmaking of British India nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 1: The Illustrated Rise and Fall of the British Empire two thousand.
Speaker 1: Also Aristocrats, Power, Grace and Decadence Britain's Great Ruling Classes
Speaker 1: from ten sixty six to the present, published twenty ten.
Speaker 1: Also The Iron Duke and Military Biography of Wellington published
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and also in twenty twenty Imperial Warrior, The
Speaker 1: Life and Times of Field Marshall, Viscount Allenby eighteen sixty
Speaker 1: one to nineteen thirty six. He also has a new
Speaker 1: book coming out next year. The title of it is
Speaker 1: The Lione and the Dragon. It's about the relationship between
Speaker 1: Britain and China. So I'm looking forward to that. But
Speaker 1: again we're going to talk about this book titled The
Speaker 1: Middle Class. So, mister James, are you there, yes, awesome, Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for bringing to the interview for people who may
Speaker 1: not have heard of you here in the States or
Speaker 1: not familiar with your books. Can you talk about your
Speaker 1: background and what led you to write this book The
Speaker 1: Middle Class?
Speaker 2: Well? I'm background is probably first of all, I was
Speaker 2: born a member of the middle class sty educated at
Speaker 2: York and Oxford Universities. I originally did research on medieval
Speaker 2: medieval English history, and after that I moved to the
Speaker 2: modern age, writing particularly about the British Empire and what
Speaker 2: might be called the forces which made Britain into the
Speaker 2: country it is now. The middle class is one of them.
Speaker 2: The Empire are rule over India and ah and Winston Churchill,
Speaker 2: who I've written about and as an imperialist. So these
Speaker 2: are the sort of things that make Britain the country
Speaker 2: it is at the moment.
Speaker 1: Right. So you have all of these very important things,
Speaker 1: and you write in this book the Middle Class that
Speaker 1: without the ingenuity and vibrancy of the middle class, there
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been a British empire. Can you talk about
Speaker 1: where it all started, where this the industrial Revolution, where
Speaker 1: the background of it really went back to, and its
Speaker 1: foundations in Britain.
Speaker 2: Well, the middle class of Someone defined the middle class
Speaker 2: in Elizabeth the First Ring, and they said these were
Speaker 2: the men and the small extent women who live by
Speaker 2: their wits. They are people who have some kind of
Speaker 2: a special learning and they apply it. The doctor, the lawyer,
Speaker 2: the veterinary surgeon. Today, all these people. We often go
Speaker 2: to them with our troubles and they use their specialist
Speaker 2: skill to resolve these, to make life easier for us.
Speaker 2: And at the same time they are people of ingenuity.
Speaker 2: They are the people who invent and above all are
Speaker 2: interested in making money, whether trading or investing. They are
Speaker 2: a sort of dynamic force and they exist and make
Speaker 2: their living because of their education because of their wit,
Speaker 2: their learning, and so they occupy they occupy a middle ground.
Speaker 2: In English. British society at the very top was an
Speaker 2: aristocracy which began life as a warrior elite, and below
Speaker 2: them are the massive people who work with their hands.
Speaker 2: If you're in the middle class, you come home from
Speaker 2: your office wherever you're working with clean hands. If you're
Speaker 2: a member of the working class, you'll come home with
Speaker 2: dirty hands. You have to wash them. A very simple
Speaker 2: way of describing the difference. But the.
Speaker 1: No, please continue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very important factor is the middle classes are
Speaker 2: made by education, the treasure education, and they try and
Speaker 2: perpetuate it in their children. That is why the middle
Speaker 2: classes are so keen on their children's education, because they
Speaker 2: see this as maintaining their status and their wealth right.
Speaker 1: And I think that was a very important aspect of
Speaker 1: your theme in your book, is the middle class ideal
Speaker 1: of status in maintaining that satus. Can you talk about
Speaker 1: what external and internal things these middle class British people
Speaker 1: did to maintain their status.
Speaker 2: Well, it's once prestige one status. Adding a society matters
Speaker 2: to them. A Victorian dog Breeder wrote, it is ordinary.
Speaker 2: It is not for ordinary people to keep a mongrel.
Speaker 2: An ordinary person has a mongrel. A member of the
Speaker 2: middle classes has a thoroughbred dog. It is status, and
Speaker 2: status is always expressed in objects, whether it's your horse
Speaker 2: in the past, or your carriage or today your motor car,
Speaker 2: your house where you live. These objects, and they are
Speaker 2: often quite expensive, objects, define your position in society. A
Speaker 2: tudor judge, a member of the middle class, a lawyer
Speaker 2: would always rise to the assizes on horseback with mounted
Speaker 2: servants behind him, fully robed in scarlet, and he was
Speaker 2: making a statement about himself. This is my position in
Speaker 2: the world. This is where I stand. Look at the
Speaker 2: rings on my fingers. Look at the dress my wife
Speaker 2: is where. Look at my house and its interior, it's decorations.
Speaker 2: All these things add up to status, and people are
Speaker 2: still obsessed with Say you watched tonight's television. Look in
Speaker 2: the papers, look at the advertisements. They're telling us to
Speaker 2: buy such a product which will raise our standing with
Speaker 2: the rest of society.
Speaker 1: Right, So this status element goes all the way back
Speaker 1: from the beginning, really where you started in thirteen fifty.
Speaker 1: So you see these people wanting the kind of heraldry gentility,
Speaker 1: tracing their ancestors back. Can you talk about kind of
Speaker 1: one of the foundations of the rise of the middle class,
Speaker 1: this idea of work and virtue and kind of the
Speaker 1: Calvinist view that really, I think was very influential in
Speaker 1: creating such a vibrant middle class in Britain.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is the Calvinist view that for the middle class.
Speaker 2: The most important part of the New Testament is almost
Speaker 2: that moment when Christ reveals the parable of the talents.
Speaker 2: These are something which each individual possesses, their God given
Speaker 2: If you don't use your talent, you are failing yourself
Speaker 2: and failing your God. So developing your talent your intelligence
Speaker 2: and this the middle class would see their intelligence, their perseverance,
Speaker 2: their ability to absorb learning and apply it. These are
Speaker 2: their talents and they are following, if you like, God's
Speaker 2: instruction in utilizing them to improve themselves. And they were
Speaker 2: that the rest of society. The lawyer would tell you,
Speaker 2: without the law, they're be chaos and anarchy. Therefore, he
Speaker 2: is a vital person performing a vital task. He still
Speaker 2: does right.
Speaker 1: You saw that kind of idealized person that they had
Speaker 1: to increase their knowledge, and you really saw it, I
Speaker 1: think really from the very beginning there in medieval England.
Speaker 1: Is this desire to obtain books to this remarkable high
Speaker 1: literacy rates. Can you talk about that kind of drive
Speaker 1: for knowledge that also was an important factor in the
Speaker 1: middle class.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's important. The first essential thing is to learn
Speaker 2: to read and write in English or probably in Latin
Speaker 2: as well. I mean, if you think of the anyone
Speaker 2: who is handling money has to record the money he
Speaker 2: gets and spends. The middle class housewife in Chaucer's time
Speaker 2: kept a household, you would have to have a household
Speaker 2: book recall how much she spent so her husband would
Speaker 2: understand she wasn't spending it on fripperies and jewelry and
Speaker 2: this thing. So, being able to read and write gives
Speaker 2: you an extraordinary power, and it gives you a tremendous
Speaker 2: value of society. Can the businessman who has no books,
Speaker 2: no means of recording how he's made his money, what
Speaker 2: he has, what he owes the mammill fail. So it
Speaker 2: is literacy which is quintessential for the middle class to survive,
Speaker 2: to grow and prosper. Anyone engage in pomp, commerce or
Speaker 2: the law or medicine must read and write. And this
Speaker 2: is why they have this tremendous passion for education and
Speaker 2: stress it for their own children.
Speaker 1: Right, So you see that passing down, You see this
Speaker 1: passing down of knowledge, sending son to Cambridge, and really
Speaker 1: that was something that was also vibrant, was the disdiffus
Speaker 1: diffusion of knowledge in the press and papers and things
Speaker 1: like that. There was really a demand by this middle
Speaker 1: class to be well read correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, there is. They want to read. They and they
Speaker 2: make sure their children will. And in Shakespeare is sent
Speaker 2: his father is a businessman in Strafford and Avon. He
Speaker 2: sends his son to the grammar school and in Shakespeare
Speaker 2: remembers it walking unwilling like a snail to school. But
Speaker 2: his father knows that William Shakespeare, whatever else he may become,
Speaker 2: must need to read and write. And of course he
Speaker 2: does it to wonderful effect, probably in a profession his
Speaker 2: father would not have approved of. Actors have really other
Speaker 2: looked down on bitlooseh bit rioters who he'll behaved. But
Speaker 2: it is Shakespeare going to school. It epitomizes Elizabethan, the
Speaker 2: later middle class. And you mentioned the press, something that
Speaker 2: appears in the eighteenth century in Britain andie through the papers,
Speaker 2: and you see news, and then you see advertisements, and
Speaker 2: these advertisements are always advertising wares to improve your status.
Speaker 2: You will see an advertisement, say for crockery. If you
Speaker 2: go to this shop, this cellar of plates and cups
Speaker 2: and whatsoever, is also supplying to the aristocracy, you know.
Speaker 2: And you still see in London a shop in which
Speaker 2: supplies her Majesty the Queen with cutlery, and the notion
Speaker 2: being that if the rich and very powerful, those at
Speaker 2: the top patronize these shops, then they must be very good.
Speaker 2: And so the middle classes are always looking upwards, looking
Speaker 2: at what they look up But what are the rich
Speaker 2: and powerful that the titled ladies and gentlemen Jane Austen's
Speaker 2: family would have perused the papers, and Missus Bennett would
Speaker 2: have seen that the joke of Carlisle or something is
Speaker 2: buying his silverware from such a dealer. Therefore this must
Speaker 2: be very good. Consumption is very important, and consumption is
Speaker 2: tied in with status, everything from clothing to the pots
Speaker 2: and pans in the scullery.
Speaker 1: Right, and so it becomes even as it advances. The
Speaker 1: middle class there in Britain being having those tastes differentiated
Speaker 1: themselves from the working class and the aristocracy. So there
Speaker 1: were specific tastes that merge in the middle class. Can
Speaker 1: you talk about those.
Speaker 2: Yes, the tastes are always they look slightly above what
Speaker 2: does the aristocrat do. And some of the tastes are
Speaker 2: highly desirable, like visiting the opera, attending the theater, being
Speaker 2: seen in public assemblies and places. Always dressed and the
Speaker 2: clothing is a statement of who you are. And at
Speaker 2: the same time the aristocracy are expected to understand quality.
Speaker 2: So consumerism is always looking upwards. I look at modern
Speaker 2: car adverts. The car is not just a vehicle which
Speaker 2: gets you from a to be. It says something about
Speaker 2: your standing in the world. Were purchasing power and this
Speaker 2: has always been so, certainly in the eighteenth century and
Speaker 2: nineteenth and the twentieth.
Speaker 1: It's still the same, right, And I think that that
Speaker 1: one of the elements that made this vibrant middle class
Speaker 1: was also their commercial skills. So it's not just the
Speaker 1: ability of money, but the they were really a nation
Speaker 1: or the middle class was very much involved in economic issues.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how that rise took place and
Speaker 1: ended up with the Industrial Revolution?
Speaker 2: It's it's really, first of all, it's about obviously buying
Speaker 2: and selling. And you what you buy what you sell
Speaker 2: each Aucer's father was a wine merchant, and he made
Speaker 2: money selling wine. And you have after you made your
Speaker 2: profits in business, you tend to I tend to take
Speaker 2: them and invest them in land. Until the nineteenth century,
Speaker 2: land was the thing to possess. It not only gave
Speaker 2: you revenues, rents, etc. It gave you a standing in
Speaker 2: the world. But the middle classes were also developed a
Speaker 2: knack of trading and also investment. When you had a
Speaker 2: surplus of capital, you transferred it somewhere else. A man
Speaker 2: in Charles the Seconds London may have made a fortune
Speaker 2: selling coal, shall we say, which came from Newcastle and
Speaker 2: sold in the London the warm people's homes. And then
Speaker 2: his surpose capital he says, well, what shall I do
Speaker 2: with it? I can invest it in that, but I
Speaker 2: could invest it in a trading company East India company,
Speaker 2: for instance, one of the many companies operating sugar plantations
Speaker 2: in the West Indies. I put my money there and
Speaker 2: that'll give me an income. And this income will build
Speaker 2: up so they making money createswealth. And when you have
Speaker 2: enough wealth you can think about investment. And in the
Speaker 2: seventeenth eighteenth century Britain were two areas to invest in
Speaker 2: industrial development, building of canals later railways, coal mines, founderies
Speaker 2: or sending it overseas to first of all India and
Speaker 2: then the West Indian colon these and then the United States.
Speaker 2: I mean the United States railways were built on money
Speaker 2: invested by rich people in Britain.
Speaker 1: Right, So you see that middle class's influence in so
Speaker 1: many things. And what's remarkable to is the attitude of
Speaker 1: the middle class was had this progressive view. Can you
Speaker 1: talk about their outlook and why it was essential to
Speaker 1: their growth?
Speaker 2: Their outlook, I mean, first of all, the middle class,
Speaker 2: the wool merchants and the cloth merchants of medieval England
Speaker 2: represent were members of Parliament. Every borough in England, a
Speaker 2: small town and city sent MPs. So the middle if
Speaker 2: you like, the commercial classes were always present in Parliament.
Speaker 2: They tended to be quiet that the big debates were
Speaker 2: sort of dominated by the knights of the shire, the
Speaker 2: landed gentry. But they're there and they become, if you like,
Speaker 2: part of the government. They're prepared as time goes by
Speaker 2: to criticize governments. Parliament gets rid of two kings, rich
Speaker 2: of the second in thirteen ninety nine, and during the
Speaker 2: Wars of the Roses, Henry the sake there with the
Speaker 2: fourth and Richard third, and so Parliament's power increases. The
Speaker 2: middle classes join with the aristocracy in making the government
Speaker 2: of the country, and their attitudes vary. They are obviously
Speaker 2: in favor of any kind of policy which will make
Speaker 2: Britain's commerce stronger. They will support government which goes to
Speaker 2: war with France and Spain in the eighteenth century to
Speaker 2: increase the size of our colonies. But they're always very
Speaker 2: money wise, so if governments who spend too much are
Speaker 2: likely to get quite a lot of criticism. Middle classes
Speaker 2: don't like paying taxes. They will vote be grumble about taxes,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, by the eighteenth century, they
Speaker 2: wish to be part of a prosperous, powerful nation which
Speaker 2: is extending its overseas empire and offering further sources to
Speaker 2: make more money.
Speaker 1: Right, so you just see that activity, that kind of
Speaker 1: buying and selling trading element. But it's also the middle
Speaker 1: classes in Britain were remarkable in their self assurance. There
Speaker 1: was something about them that they really thought they could
Speaker 1: do something and apply their talents and really succeed. I
Speaker 1: thought that was a theme within your book and an
Speaker 1: interesting aspect of the British middle class. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about more about I mean it's there must be something
Speaker 1: based in the Puritanism or the Calvinism that they really
Speaker 1: thought that they could effectively put the capitalism to use.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is the they feel there is. The making
Speaker 2: of wealth is a sign that you are a chosen person.
Speaker 2: These people the strong seventeenth eighteenth century belief in providence.
Speaker 2: If you succeed, this is a mark of God's blessing.
Speaker 2: At the same time, they are their outlook is extremely flexible.
Speaker 2: They are on lookout for chance and opportunity, and when
Speaker 2: they see it, they weigh it, and they may often
Speaker 2: take chances. The picture we get in the Merchant of Venice,
Speaker 2: of waiting for your ship. They may be set in Venice,
Speaker 2: the merchant waiting for his ship to come back from
Speaker 2: foreign parts, anxious whether it's going to bring him a
Speaker 2: fortune or bankruptcy. But they are willing to take risks.
Speaker 2: I take an example of a friend's family class. Never
Speaker 2: wealth tend to go from eldest son to eldest son.
Speaker 2: So the children of the middle classes, those who are
Speaker 2: not going to inherit the business. They have to seek
Speaker 2: their own fortunes, and so you might find a fringing
Speaker 2: experience of a friend of mine, her grandfather aged eighteen
Speaker 2: in the middle of the nineteenth century, is put on
Speaker 2: a boat to Cape Town in South Africa with a
Speaker 2: few pounds to keep him and they say, you'll go
Speaker 2: there and see what fortune you can make.
Speaker 1: So that's it. I mean, you're really sent out to
Speaker 1: make your way in the world, and you know, come
Speaker 1: back with their money was a sign of success at
Speaker 1: that time. Can you you have a section in your
Speaker 1: book as the middle class is emerging about kind of
Speaker 1: the associations that the middle class had in the late
Speaker 1: eighteenth century early nineteenth century, can you talk about how
Speaker 1: people spend their time as members of the middle class.
Speaker 2: Well, they're spending their time. This is up to individual choice,
Speaker 2: and the middle classes are always very emphatic. They are
Speaker 2: very individualistic. They enjoy the entertainment which is provided for
Speaker 2: them commercial entertainment, the theater, the ballet, musical concerts, assemblies,
Speaker 2: and dances, but they can pursue their own interests and
Speaker 2: these are not just reading and study, but causes in
Speaker 2: which they can use their influence and standing to sway
Speaker 2: the world around them to change it. So in the
Speaker 2: eighteenth century you have a lot of middle class men
Speaker 2: and women banding together and demanding political change and political reform,
Speaker 2: extending the franchise, or some moral cause tempference, reducing the
Speaker 2: amount of drunkenness in the country, or something on the
Speaker 2: far greater scale, which is the abolition of the slave
Speaker 2: trade in which they succeed, and so that a man
Speaker 2: had not only a duty to employ his talents, but
Speaker 2: a duty and the woman too. There is a strong
Speaker 2: women's work here to remake the world, will make it
Speaker 2: a better place, not only for the middle class, but
Speaker 2: for the rest of society. So you've got all sorts
Speaker 2: of society for the reform of public morals, which was
Speaker 2: keeping the street free of muggers and drunkers and prostitutes.
Speaker 2: All these things they throw their whole body and soul.
Speaker 1: Into, right, So you saw that during this rise of
Speaker 1: the middle class, this desire to suppress vice make social
Speaker 1: changes for the better too, which I think was a
Speaker 1: vitally important element of that success and their ability to
Speaker 1: kind of make those changes. Can you talk about how
Speaker 1: the middle class developed as the nineteenth century progressed with
Speaker 1: other challenges that took place, and interpretations really like the
Speaker 1: way Marks interpreted the middle class in the UK.
Speaker 2: Well, the middle class they see themselves as the most responsible,
Speaker 2: clear headache section of society. They see that there is
Speaker 2: much to be done, whether it's and they can do
Speaker 2: it because they dominate local government. The great cities of Manchester, Liverpool,
Speaker 2: Birmingham are run by Edinburgh. Glasgow are run by the
Speaker 2: middle classes, so they can build public libraries, pave the streets,
Speaker 2: installed gas lighting, all these things which are for the
Speaker 2: betterment of humanity. At the same time, they're aware the
Speaker 2: industry has created an enormous working class. It tends to
Speaker 2: be slightly frightened of it. It can be very frightening.
Speaker 2: Then the mobs which appear, the mobs which appear the
Speaker 2: working classes must be first of all restrained and then
Speaker 2: taught to live sober and godly lives and improve themselves.
Speaker 2: If you like, imitate the middle class. It is the
Speaker 2: middle class set up a savings bank so the working
Speaker 2: man can put his money away and save it. The
Speaker 2: middle classes are great believers in frift. Not all of them,
Speaker 2: but quite a lot were, and therefore pull himself upwards,
Speaker 2: and they had. There was an organization called the charity
Speaker 2: organization Society in which you not only gave money, but
Speaker 2: you walked and visited, walked to and visited the homes
Speaker 2: of the poor, You spoke to them, you gave them
Speaker 2: moral advice, and if you lent the money, you're expected
Speaker 2: to be repair In a sense, it was trying to
Speaker 2: They were missionaries for the morality of the middle class.
Speaker 2: Self help, thrift and sobriety will bring you happiness. And
Speaker 2: of course everyone knew that the great, too great problems
Speaker 2: of Victorian urban life were prostitution and drunkenness on the
Speaker 2: scale which I think today we still can't imagine.
Speaker 1: Can you talk more about that that was right around
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it is a sense that as the Industrial
Speaker 2: Revolution and it's great overseas commercial successes give the British
Speaker 2: people a very strong sense that they are a chosen
Speaker 2: people now the agents of providence, and not only must
Speaker 2: they uplift people abroad abolish slavery, but they must also
Speaker 2: remake their own country tree into a godly, upright and
Speaker 2: moral state. And this meant alleviating poverty, not my faring
Speaker 2: money at it, but making the poor responsible. Just like
Speaker 2: the middle classes. The poor must make their own destinies,
Speaker 2: but they needed very intense guidance from above. And so
Speaker 2: you had the Victorian lady visiting the working family, praying
Speaker 2: with them, trying to guide them towards church, try to
Speaker 2: help the wife reform a drunkard husband. And this may
Speaker 2: seem highly emotional or melodramatic, but the drunkenness, say the
Speaker 2: murder of wives by husbands was usually caused by drunkness,
Speaker 2: was fairly common in Victoria. In England, Oscar Wild's about
Speaker 2: read in jail, the man about to be hanged has,
Speaker 2: in a drunken fit, murdered his wife. And so you
Speaker 2: could see the Victorians read a story like this and
Speaker 2: say this is something we must do something about. This
Speaker 2: is what God tells us to do.
Speaker 1: Right. So you really saw that change, and there was
Speaker 1: kind of a rise of evangelicalism. You write about how
Speaker 1: there was almost kind of a stuffy kind of Christianity
Speaker 1: that really wanted to impose its will upon certain members,
Speaker 1: members of the middle class in that society. It also
Speaker 1: was fascinating, like you saw the in the architecture and
Speaker 1: what was built the patronage of the middle class really
Speaker 1: made an impact upon the cities of the Clinton correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the middle classes, the ruling classes of Saying
Speaker 2: Manchester wanted their city, and they deliberately look back to
Speaker 2: Athens and Rows, these great civic cultures, and they wanted
Speaker 2: to make their cities. They preferred on the whole the
Speaker 2: Gothic to the Classical style. Classical styles tended to favor
Speaker 2: the aristocracy, but they wanted them to be memorials of
Speaker 2: the vibrant life of the city and to remind people
Speaker 2: that although they made their money from trade and investment,
Speaker 2: they were cultured men, men who appreciated fine art and
Speaker 2: exquisite buildings. And there's a moral purpers. I mean the
Speaker 2: public baths, it meant that people will be cleaner, washed themselves,
Speaker 2: and the public bars are very important. Small things like
Speaker 2: drinking fountains, troughs for horses, payment, gas lighting, all these
Speaker 2: focused on the city as a center of civilization as
Speaker 2: it had been in the ancient world.
Speaker 1: Right, So you really see this growth coming out of
Speaker 1: the middle class. Really, the beautification and the rise that
Speaker 1: you'd take for granted was really something that was done
Speaker 1: by these patrons. They started their own private libraries, interesting
Speaker 1: things like that. Can you talk about also kind of
Speaker 1: how the origin of speeches you talk about Darwin and
Speaker 1: the public schools, Can you talk about their impact there
Speaker 1: at the nineteenth century.
Speaker 2: Well, the middle classes have a great faith in education.
Speaker 2: They want their children to be educated, so that just
Speaker 2: just to maintain their status and preferably go further upwards
Speaker 2: and standing in society. So the alternative were alternatives are
Speaker 2: the local grammar schools, which there are a huge number
Speaker 2: scattered about the country, or they could go to the
Speaker 2: public schools. These were fee paying schools. Many were founded
Speaker 2: in the Victorian people deliberately period deliberately for the middle classes,
Speaker 2: but they wanted The old public schools of the eighteenth
Speaker 2: century were real riotous places, disorderly, heavy drinking, violent. New
Speaker 2: public schools, thanks to doctor Arnold at Rugby, were places
Speaker 2: of soberness, godly learning in which the young middle class
Speaker 2: boy and later his sister would learn their duties as
Speaker 2: respectable citizens and also pick up the qualities of manliness,
Speaker 2: Christian fortitude. Play sports cricket rugby, uh so they're both
Speaker 2: physically fit, strong and self discipline. Sport is a discipline
Speaker 2: of a kind played by the rules. And this notion
Speaker 2: of Christian manliness which the late mid and late Victorian
Speaker 2: public schools sold appealed to the middle classes. They didn't
Speaker 2: want to go to the to go to the old
Speaker 2: style public schools in which the boy would learn to drink,
Speaker 2: to chase girls and enjoy bad company. Know, they were
Speaker 2: there for a great moral education, and this was best
Speaker 2: carried out on the playing field, in the classroom, and
Speaker 2: above all in the chapel.
Speaker 1: Right, So you see that sobriety, And how does the
Speaker 1: middle class adapt to the twentieth century? How does that
Speaker 1: progress in the chap.
Speaker 2: It's going to undergo all sorts of revolutions. The first
Speaker 2: revolution of the twentieth century is that by nineteen hundred,
Speaker 2: by nineteen eighteen, Britain has become a democracy in which
Speaker 2: a great proportion of male and female population can vote.
Speaker 2: The middle class find extreme exciting new forms of entertainment,
Speaker 2: motor cars, cycling, foreign travel with me and the middle
Speaker 2: class have never had a better up and to enjoy themselves.
Speaker 2: And this continues to go on. One notices that church
Speaker 2: going diminishes over time in the twentieth century. But who
Speaker 2: have the middle class patter familiars might go out and
Speaker 2: play golf on the Sundays rather than go to church.
Speaker 2: The middle class is also into the forefront in Two
Speaker 2: World Wars very instructive film and play. This Happy Breed
Speaker 2: by Noel Coward comes from a lower middle class family
Speaker 2: in London and his lower middle class figure stands up
Speaker 2: and says, it's up to ordinary people like ourselves to
Speaker 2: keep things steady. And another film of the period, Missus Miniver,
Speaker 2: which is about an upper class lady in the countryside,
Speaker 2: shows how in wartime to members of the middle class
Speaker 2: do their duty before it patiently, honorably and patriotically. So
Speaker 2: they are drawn into these two great upheavals which transfer
Speaker 2: the country. And at the same time their numbers are increasing.
Speaker 2: The number of clerks employed in offices of government offices,
Speaker 2: but more commercial offices, banks, solicitors, insurers means that the
Speaker 2: middle class is expanding, particularly it's lower levels, the clerical level,
Speaker 2: so their numbers are increasing. They do in two ship
Speaker 2: World Wars attempt to do their duty. They see themselves
Speaker 2: as rallying society, keeping it steady in nurl Card's words.
Speaker 2: And the same time there is a it's at a
Speaker 2: loosening of the Victorian corsets. People are more frank, more open,
Speaker 2: people speak about sexuality. The nineteen twenties was seen as
Speaker 2: an era by some Victorians as one of decadence. But
Speaker 2: you know, with Charleston liberating dances and nightclubs, there's a
Speaker 2: lot more entertainment going on. There's a lot more freedom,
Speaker 2: a lot less stuffiness, and the middle class embraced this
Speaker 2: on the whole. The older generation, you know, pooh pooh it.
Speaker 2: They hold their breath and say no, no, it's not right,
Speaker 2: it's wrong, but it's unstoppable. And then the motor car
Speaker 2: comes along, and the motor car gives a new dimension
Speaker 2: to life of the middle class. Henry Ford's popular motoring
Speaker 2: Austin in the nineteen twenties means you have this new
Speaker 2: and by the thirties and forties, the household is changing
Speaker 2: because the middle class wife is being liberated by domestic chores,
Speaker 2: by washing machines, hoovers, and so she has a greater
Speaker 2: freedom than her mother or grandmother. So there's a sense
Speaker 2: of liberation going on. At the same time, the middle
Speaker 2: classes are still earning money, still getting on, still clinging
Speaker 2: to status. Your model T Ford might be purchased by
Speaker 2: the bank clerk. The chairman of the company will have.
Speaker 1: A rolls right. So that's how it develops to World
Speaker 1: War two. Where do you see the middle class in
Speaker 1: Britain now and how do you perceive its future?
Speaker 2: Well, it's getting larger and larger. The industrial working class,
Speaker 2: people working mines, shipyards, iron steel foundries, are diminishing in
Speaker 2: number by now. I think think at least sixty percent
Speaker 2: of the population are middle class. That is, they live
Speaker 2: by their wits. And the IT Revolution has generated thousands,
Speaker 2: perhaps millions of middle class jobs, not only in prison
Speaker 2: but across the world. People who live by their learning,
Speaker 2: by their wits. And these people, this number of these
Speaker 2: people is increasing, So the middle classes is more and
Speaker 2: more numerous. They are also sending their children to university.
Speaker 2: Now most middle class families expect their children to go
Speaker 2: to university, if only sometimes the the sort of finishing school,
Speaker 2: almost broadening the mind, but more and more often in
Speaker 2: the last few years as a way of securing a job.
Speaker 2: The notion of a job has changed. The middle class
Speaker 2: of the twenties and thirties thought of a job as
Speaker 2: something for life, but in fact there's no such thing
Speaker 2: as job for life. Someone may start in one profession
Speaker 2: and end in another. So this old fashioned flexibility is
Speaker 2: becoming more and more important. A middle class young man
Speaker 2: today may not know exactly what he might be doing
Speaker 2: in twenty years time his grandfather did, right, But.
Speaker 1: You still see that continuum, the continuum with kind of status,
Speaker 1: with yeah, obtaining objects. It started all the way back,
Speaker 1: you know, fifteenth century, fourteenth century to the present. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: really a fascinating book. I mean, how would you like
Speaker 1: to sum it up before we wrap a word about
Speaker 1: thirty seven minutes?
Speaker 2: Well, I think I would sum it up is it's
Speaker 2: a it's a sort of it's a biography of a
Speaker 2: huge section of the country, but it's made up of
Speaker 2: lots and lots of individual biographies of individual men and
Speaker 2: women members of the middle class. And what they're hold
Speaker 2: in common is I think mixtures of self comp evidence, adaptability,
Speaker 2: and I think the perseverance. I mean that they're still
Speaker 2: a Victorian virtue, but it's still with us.
Speaker 1: Right, you still see that today. I mean, it's really
Speaker 1: a remarkable story. And where's the best place for people
Speaker 1: to obtain the middle class?
Speaker 2: Well, I assume any good book shop not very good
Speaker 2: on the distribution, but I'm sure if you order one
Speaker 2: it will turn up.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's one on Amazon, and you can be
Speaker 1: contacted through your publisher little brand, and people want to
Speaker 1: reach out.
Speaker 2: Or yes, yes do. I hear lots of middle class
Speaker 2: people telling me about middle class experiences. And what's fascinating
Speaker 2: that the latest and the middle classes have more and
Speaker 2: more hobbies and pastimes than ever they had before. And
Speaker 2: one of the most interesting one is so many of
Speaker 2: them are trying to find out about their ancestors.
Speaker 1: Right, that's the new thing, right ancestry dot com. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again the title of the book is The Middle
Speaker 1: Class and it's a new edition twenty twenty one, and
Speaker 1: the author again is Lawrence James. Thank you so much, Lawrence,
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: William.
Speaker 1: Okay, stay there, don't go anyway.