WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:02.839 Okay, we're live. Hi. This is William Ramsey. Welcome to 2 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:05.919 William Ramsey investigates on today's show of a very special guest. 3 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:08.160 He comes to us from the UK. His name is 4 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:10.759 Lawrence James and he's just put out a new edition 5 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:13.480 of a book he originally published in two thousand and six. 6 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.719 The title of this book is The Middle Class, published 7 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.320 in April seventh, twenty twenty one. Really a fascinating book 8 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:23.920 goes in very great detail about kind of the rise 9 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.480 of the middle class in Britain. But this is not 10 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.679 his only book. He's written eight or nine other books. 11 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:32.119 He has another book coming out next year. But his 12 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:35.439 first book was The Golden Warrior, The Life and Legend 13 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.679 of Lawrence of Arabia, published nineteen ninety three. Also The 14 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:41.240 Rise and Fall of the British Empire nineteen ninety seven, 15 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.640 raj The Making and Unmaking of British India nineteen ninety eight, 16 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:48.759 The Illustrated Rise and Fall of the British Empire two thousand. 17 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.719 Also Aristocrats, Power, Grace and Decadence Britain's Great Ruling Classes 18 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.079 from ten sixty six to the present, published twenty ten. 19 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:01.280 Also The Iron Duke and Military Biography of Wellington published 20 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:05.040 twenty twenty, and also in twenty twenty Imperial Warrior, The 21 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:08.799 Life and Times of Field Marshall, Viscount Allenby eighteen sixty 22 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.120 one to nineteen thirty six. He also has a new 23 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.120 book coming out next year. The title of it is 24 00:01:13.159 --> 00:01:16.439 The Lione and the Dragon. It's about the relationship between 25 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:19.519 Britain and China. So I'm looking forward to that. But 26 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:21.760 again we're going to talk about this book titled The 27 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:25.680 Middle Class. So, mister James, are you there, yes, awesome, Well, 28 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.760 thanks for bringing to the interview for people who may 29 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:30.120 not have heard of you here in the States or 30 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.239 not familiar with your books. Can you talk about your 31 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:34.480 background and what led you to write this book The 32 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:35.760 Middle Class? 33 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.840 Well? I'm background is probably first of all, I was 34 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:44.359 born a member of the middle class sty educated at 35 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:49.120 York and Oxford Universities. I originally did research on medieval 36 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.680 medieval English history, and after that I moved to the 37 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:59.280 modern age, writing particularly about the British Empire and what 38 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.040 might be called the forces which made Britain into the 39 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:06.359 country it is now. The middle class is one of them. 40 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:13.479 The Empire are rule over India and ah and Winston Churchill, 41 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:17.560 who I've written about and as an imperialist. So these 42 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:20.319 are the sort of things that make Britain the country 43 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:21.199 it is at the moment. 44 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:24.319 Right. So you have all of these very important things, 45 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:26.199 and you write in this book the Middle Class that 46 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:33.479 without the ingenuity and vibrancy of the middle class, there 47 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:36.639 wouldn't have been a British empire. Can you talk about 48 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:40.680 where it all started, where this the industrial Revolution, where 49 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.080 the background of it really went back to, and its 50 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:44.560 foundations in Britain. 51 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:49.680 Well, the middle class of Someone defined the middle class 52 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:53.080 in Elizabeth the First Ring, and they said these were 53 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.199 the men and the small extent women who live by 54 00:02:56.240 --> 00:03:00.000 their wits. They are people who have some kind of 55 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.879 a special learning and they apply it. The doctor, the lawyer, 56 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.680 the veterinary surgeon. Today, all these people. We often go 57 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.639 to them with our troubles and they use their specialist 58 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:17.840 skill to resolve these, to make life easier for us. 59 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:21.520 And at the same time they are people of ingenuity. 60 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:25.840 They are the people who invent and above all are 61 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:31.479 interested in making money, whether trading or investing. They are 62 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:37.520 a sort of dynamic force and they exist and make 63 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.599 their living because of their education because of their wit, 64 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:45.479 their learning, and so they occupy they occupy a middle ground. 65 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:49.080 In English. British society at the very top was an 66 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:54.080 aristocracy which began life as a warrior elite, and below 67 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.280 them are the massive people who work with their hands. 68 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:00.680 If you're in the middle class, you come home from 69 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.039 your office wherever you're working with clean hands. If you're 70 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:06.680 a member of the working class, you'll come home with 71 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:10.000 dirty hands. You have to wash them. A very simple 72 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:13.759 way of describing the difference. But the. 73 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:17.079 No, please continue. 74 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:21.600 Yeah, the very important factor is the middle classes are 75 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:26.160 made by education, the treasure education, and they try and 76 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:29.839 perpetuate it in their children. That is why the middle 77 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:34.040 classes are so keen on their children's education, because they 78 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.439 see this as maintaining their status and their wealth right. 79 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:40.480 And I think that was a very important aspect of 80 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:44.120 your theme in your book, is the middle class ideal 81 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.680 of status in maintaining that satus. Can you talk about 82 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:53.040 what external and internal things these middle class British people 83 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.199 did to maintain their status. 84 00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:01.439 Well, it's once prestige one status. Adding a society matters 85 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:08.279 to them. A Victorian dog Breeder wrote, it is ordinary. 86 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.839 It is not for ordinary people to keep a mongrel. 87 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.560 An ordinary person has a mongrel. A member of the 88 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.279 middle classes has a thoroughbred dog. It is status, and 89 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:23.040 status is always expressed in objects, whether it's your horse 90 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.600 in the past, or your carriage or today your motor car, 91 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:31.839 your house where you live. These objects, and they are 92 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:37.319 often quite expensive, objects, define your position in society. A 93 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.639 tudor judge, a member of the middle class, a lawyer 94 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:45.160 would always rise to the assizes on horseback with mounted 95 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:49.759 servants behind him, fully robed in scarlet, and he was 96 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:53.199 making a statement about himself. This is my position in 97 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.560 the world. This is where I stand. Look at the 98 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.519 rings on my fingers. Look at the dress my wife 99 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:04.959 is where. Look at my house and its interior, it's decorations. 100 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:12.399 All these things add up to status, and people are 101 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.399 still obsessed with Say you watched tonight's television. Look in 102 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.879 the papers, look at the advertisements. They're telling us to 103 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:22.920 buy such a product which will raise our standing with 104 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:24.240 the rest of society. 105 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:27.879 Right, So this status element goes all the way back 106 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:32.279 from the beginning, really where you started in thirteen fifty. 107 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:37.360 So you see these people wanting the kind of heraldry gentility, 108 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:42.319 tracing their ancestors back. Can you talk about kind of 109 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:45.360 one of the foundations of the rise of the middle class, 110 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.680 this idea of work and virtue and kind of the 111 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:54.040 Calvinist view that really, I think was very influential in 112 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.560 creating such a vibrant middle class in Britain. 113 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:03.360 Yes, it is the Calvinist view that for the middle class. 114 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:06.360 The most important part of the New Testament is almost 115 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:11.600 that moment when Christ reveals the parable of the talents. 116 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.879 These are something which each individual possesses, their God given 117 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.560 If you don't use your talent, you are failing yourself 118 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:28.000 and failing your God. So developing your talent your intelligence 119 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:33.160 and this the middle class would see their intelligence, their perseverance, 120 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:37.920 their ability to absorb learning and apply it. These are 121 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:42.000 their talents and they are following, if you like, God's 122 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:47.759 instruction in utilizing them to improve themselves. And they were 123 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.600 that the rest of society. The lawyer would tell you, 124 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.959 without the law, they're be chaos and anarchy. Therefore, he 125 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.839 is a vital person performing a vital task. He still 126 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:00.040 does right. 127 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:04.240 You saw that kind of idealized person that they had 128 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.800 to increase their knowledge, and you really saw it, I 129 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:11.079 think really from the very beginning there in medieval England. 130 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:17.319 Is this desire to obtain books to this remarkable high 131 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:20.680 literacy rates. Can you talk about that kind of drive 132 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:22.959 for knowledge that also was an important factor in the 133 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:23.879 middle class. 134 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:29.720 Yes, it's important. The first essential thing is to learn 135 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:34.600 to read and write in English or probably in Latin 136 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:38.919 as well. I mean, if you think of the anyone 137 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.639 who is handling money has to record the money he 138 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:48.720 gets and spends. The middle class housewife in Chaucer's time 139 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:51.600 kept a household, you would have to have a household 140 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:55.759 book recall how much she spent so her husband would 141 00:08:55.960 --> 00:08:59.720 understand she wasn't spending it on fripperies and jewelry and 142 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:04.480 this thing. So, being able to read and write gives 143 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:09.080 you an extraordinary power, and it gives you a tremendous 144 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:15.440 value of society. Can the businessman who has no books, 145 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:19.879 no means of recording how he's made his money, what 146 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.200 he has, what he owes the mammill fail. So it 147 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:31.320 is literacy which is quintessential for the middle class to survive, 148 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:36.159 to grow and prosper. Anyone engage in pomp, commerce or 149 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:40.919 the law or medicine must read and write. And this 150 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:44.639 is why they have this tremendous passion for education and 151 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:46.279 stress it for their own children. 152 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:49.960 Right, So you see that passing down, You see this 153 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.799 passing down of knowledge, sending son to Cambridge, and really 154 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:59.759 that was something that was also vibrant, was the disdiffus 155 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:04.480 diffusion of knowledge in the press and papers and things 156 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.200 like that. There was really a demand by this middle 157 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.279 class to be well read correct. 158 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:14.759 Yes, there is. They want to read. They and they 159 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:17.879 make sure their children will. And in Shakespeare is sent 160 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.519 his father is a businessman in Strafford and Avon. He 161 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:23.679 sends his son to the grammar school and in Shakespeare 162 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:27.919 remembers it walking unwilling like a snail to school. But 163 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:32.759 his father knows that William Shakespeare, whatever else he may become, 164 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.759 must need to read and write. And of course he 165 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.080 does it to wonderful effect, probably in a profession his 166 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.200 father would not have approved of. Actors have really other 167 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:45.600 looked down on bitlooseh bit rioters who he'll behaved. But 168 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:50.320 it is Shakespeare going to school. It epitomizes Elizabethan, the 169 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.120 later middle class. And you mentioned the press, something that 170 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.440 appears in the eighteenth century in Britain andie through the papers, 171 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.639 and you see news, and then you see advertisements, and 172 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:09.080 these advertisements are always advertising wares to improve your status. 173 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.159 You will see an advertisement, say for crockery. If you 174 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:17.519 go to this shop, this cellar of plates and cups 175 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:22.159 and whatsoever, is also supplying to the aristocracy, you know. 176 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.360 And you still see in London a shop in which 177 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:30.960 supplies her Majesty the Queen with cutlery, and the notion 178 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.440 being that if the rich and very powerful, those at 179 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.799 the top patronize these shops, then they must be very good. 180 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:42.080 And so the middle classes are always looking upwards, looking 181 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:47.000 at what they look up But what are the rich 182 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:51.000 and powerful that the titled ladies and gentlemen Jane Austen's 183 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:55.759 family would have perused the papers, and Missus Bennett would 184 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:03.519 have seen that the joke of Carlisle or something is 185 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.480 buying his silverware from such a dealer. Therefore this must 186 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:12.879 be very good. Consumption is very important, and consumption is 187 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:19.840 tied in with status, everything from clothing to the pots 188 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:21.639 and pans in the scullery. 189 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:24.679 Right, and so it becomes even as it advances. The 190 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:29.799 middle class there in Britain being having those tastes differentiated 191 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:33.799 themselves from the working class and the aristocracy. So there 192 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.559 were specific tastes that merge in the middle class. Can 193 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:38.360 you talk about those. 194 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:46.080 Yes, the tastes are always they look slightly above what 195 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:49.879 does the aristocrat do. And some of the tastes are 196 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:55.759 highly desirable, like visiting the opera, attending the theater, being 197 00:12:55.840 --> 00:13:01.879 seen in public assemblies and places. Always dressed and the 198 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:06.759 clothing is a statement of who you are. And at 199 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.639 the same time the aristocracy are expected to understand quality. 200 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:15.480 So consumerism is always looking upwards. I look at modern 201 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.919 car adverts. The car is not just a vehicle which 202 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.559 gets you from a to be. It says something about 203 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:27.799 your standing in the world. Were purchasing power and this 204 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:32.440 has always been so, certainly in the eighteenth century and 205 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.600 nineteenth and the twentieth. 206 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.120 It's still the same, right, And I think that that 207 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.559 one of the elements that made this vibrant middle class 208 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:44.200 was also their commercial skills. So it's not just the 209 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.639 ability of money, but the they were really a nation 210 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:51.639 or the middle class was very much involved in economic issues. 211 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:54.559 Can you talk about how that rise took place and 212 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.519 ended up with the Industrial Revolution? 213 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:03.080 It's it's really, first of all, it's about obviously buying 214 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.960 and selling. And you what you buy what you sell 215 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:12.480 each Aucer's father was a wine merchant, and he made 216 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:19.440 money selling wine. And you have after you made your 217 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:24.000 profits in business, you tend to I tend to take 218 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.720 them and invest them in land. Until the nineteenth century, 219 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:33.799 land was the thing to possess. It not only gave 220 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:38.000 you revenues, rents, etc. It gave you a standing in 221 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.480 the world. But the middle classes were also developed a 222 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:47.000 knack of trading and also investment. When you had a 223 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:51.240 surplus of capital, you transferred it somewhere else. A man 224 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.759 in Charles the Seconds London may have made a fortune 225 00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:59.480 selling coal, shall we say, which came from Newcastle and 226 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:03.840 sold in the London the warm people's homes. And then 227 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:06.080 his surpose capital he says, well, what shall I do 228 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:08.840 with it? I can invest it in that, but I 229 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:12.320 could invest it in a trading company East India company, 230 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.080 for instance, one of the many companies operating sugar plantations 231 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.679 in the West Indies. I put my money there and 232 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:28.039 that'll give me an income. And this income will build 233 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:33.120 up so they making money createswealth. And when you have 234 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:36.879 enough wealth you can think about investment. And in the 235 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:42.240 seventeenth eighteenth century Britain were two areas to invest in 236 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:49.120 industrial development, building of canals later railways, coal mines, founderies 237 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:56.480 or sending it overseas to first of all India and 238 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.759 then the West Indian colon these and then the United States. 239 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:06.000 I mean the United States railways were built on money 240 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.919 invested by rich people in Britain. 241 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.759 Right, So you see that middle class's influence in so 242 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.120 many things. And what's remarkable to is the attitude of 243 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:21.919 the middle class was had this progressive view. Can you 244 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.639 talk about their outlook and why it was essential to 245 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:26.320 their growth? 246 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.440 Their outlook, I mean, first of all, the middle class, 247 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.080 the wool merchants and the cloth merchants of medieval England 248 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.320 represent were members of Parliament. Every borough in England, a 249 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:46.200 small town and city sent MPs. So the middle if 250 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.440 you like, the commercial classes were always present in Parliament. 251 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.279 They tended to be quiet that the big debates were 252 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.440 sort of dominated by the knights of the shire, the 253 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:02.320 landed gentry. But they're there and they become, if you like, 254 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.559 part of the government. They're prepared as time goes by 255 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:12.160 to criticize governments. Parliament gets rid of two kings, rich 256 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:16.160 of the second in thirteen ninety nine, and during the 257 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.079 Wars of the Roses, Henry the sake there with the 258 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:26.559 fourth and Richard third, and so Parliament's power increases. The 259 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:30.880 middle classes join with the aristocracy in making the government 260 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:36.960 of the country, and their attitudes vary. They are obviously 261 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.480 in favor of any kind of policy which will make 262 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:47.880 Britain's commerce stronger. They will support government which goes to 263 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.119 war with France and Spain in the eighteenth century to 264 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.519 increase the size of our colonies. But they're always very 265 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.119 money wise, so if governments who spend too much are 266 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.960 likely to get quite a lot of criticism. Middle classes 267 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:06.759 don't like paying taxes. They will vote be grumble about taxes, 268 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.799 but at the same time, by the eighteenth century, they 269 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:16.079 wish to be part of a prosperous, powerful nation which 270 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:21.319 is extending its overseas empire and offering further sources to 271 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:22.160 make more money. 272 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.880 Right, so you just see that activity, that kind of 273 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.000 buying and selling trading element. But it's also the middle 274 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:34.400 classes in Britain were remarkable in their self assurance. There 275 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.880 was something about them that they really thought they could 276 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:41.119 do something and apply their talents and really succeed. I 277 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.880 thought that was a theme within your book and an 278 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.640 interesting aspect of the British middle class. Can you talk 279 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.960 about more about I mean it's there must be something 280 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.480 based in the Puritanism or the Calvinism that they really 281 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.200 thought that they could effectively put the capitalism to use. 282 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:05.920 Yes, it is the they feel there is. The making 283 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.720 of wealth is a sign that you are a chosen person. 284 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:14.759 These people the strong seventeenth eighteenth century belief in providence. 285 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.279 If you succeed, this is a mark of God's blessing. 286 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:24.000 At the same time, they are their outlook is extremely flexible. 287 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:30.680 They are on lookout for chance and opportunity, and when 288 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.279 they see it, they weigh it, and they may often 289 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:39.720 take chances. The picture we get in the Merchant of Venice, 290 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:43.759 of waiting for your ship. They may be set in Venice, 291 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:46.599 the merchant waiting for his ship to come back from 292 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.279 foreign parts, anxious whether it's going to bring him a 293 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:55.480 fortune or bankruptcy. But they are willing to take risks. 294 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:01.440 I take an example of a friend's family class. Never 295 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.119 wealth tend to go from eldest son to eldest son. 296 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:09.240 So the children of the middle classes, those who are 297 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:12.960 not going to inherit the business. They have to seek 298 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:18.279 their own fortunes, and so you might find a fringing 299 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:23.240 experience of a friend of mine, her grandfather aged eighteen 300 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.720 in the middle of the nineteenth century, is put on 301 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.960 a boat to Cape Town in South Africa with a 302 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.200 few pounds to keep him and they say, you'll go 303 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:37.319 there and see what fortune you can make. 304 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:43.079 So that's it. I mean, you're really sent out to 305 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.960 make your way in the world, and you know, come 306 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.440 back with their money was a sign of success at 307 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.400 that time. Can you you have a section in your 308 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.119 book as the middle class is emerging about kind of 309 00:20:55.119 --> 00:21:00.680 the associations that the middle class had in the late 310 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.759 eighteenth century early nineteenth century, can you talk about how 311 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.799 people spend their time as members of the middle class. 312 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.279 Well, they're spending their time. This is up to individual choice, 313 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.920 and the middle classes are always very emphatic. They are 314 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:21.240 very individualistic. They enjoy the entertainment which is provided for 315 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:28.039 them commercial entertainment, the theater, the ballet, musical concerts, assemblies, 316 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.880 and dances, but they can pursue their own interests and 317 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:36.359 these are not just reading and study, but causes in 318 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:42.279 which they can use their influence and standing to sway 319 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:44.920 the world around them to change it. So in the 320 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.240 eighteenth century you have a lot of middle class men 321 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:55.000 and women banding together and demanding political change and political reform, 322 00:21:55.640 --> 00:22:02.000 extending the franchise, or some moral cause tempference, reducing the 323 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:04.799 amount of drunkenness in the country, or something on the 324 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.240 far greater scale, which is the abolition of the slave 325 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:13.759 trade in which they succeed, and so that a man 326 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.920 had not only a duty to employ his talents, but 327 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.480 a duty and the woman too. There is a strong 328 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:24.279 women's work here to remake the world, will make it 329 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.039 a better place, not only for the middle class, but 330 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.240 for the rest of society. So you've got all sorts 331 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:36.160 of society for the reform of public morals, which was 332 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:39.880 keeping the street free of muggers and drunkers and prostitutes. 333 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.160 All these things they throw their whole body and soul. 334 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:48.880 Into, right, So you saw that during this rise of 335 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:54.559 the middle class, this desire to suppress vice make social 336 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:56.519 changes for the better too, which I think was a 337 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.640 vitally important element of that success and their ability to 338 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.240 kind of make those changes. Can you talk about how 339 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.839 the middle class developed as the nineteenth century progressed with 340 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:13.640 other challenges that took place, and interpretations really like the 341 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:17.000 way Marks interpreted the middle class in the UK. 342 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:25.640 Well, the middle class they see themselves as the most responsible, 343 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:32.279 clear headache section of society. They see that there is 344 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.880 much to be done, whether it's and they can do 345 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:39.279 it because they dominate local government. The great cities of Manchester, Liverpool, 346 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.759 Birmingham are run by Edinburgh. Glasgow are run by the 347 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:48.720 middle classes, so they can build public libraries, pave the streets, 348 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.720 installed gas lighting, all these things which are for the 349 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:57.000 betterment of humanity. At the same time, they're aware the 350 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:01.839 industry has created an enormous working class. It tends to 351 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.400 be slightly frightened of it. It can be very frightening. 352 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:11.680 Then the mobs which appear, the mobs which appear the 353 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:16.599 working classes must be first of all restrained and then 354 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:21.400 taught to live sober and godly lives and improve themselves. 355 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.279 If you like, imitate the middle class. It is the 356 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:30.720 middle class set up a savings bank so the working 357 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:34.359 man can put his money away and save it. The 358 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:37.240 middle classes are great believers in frift. Not all of them, 359 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:41.920 but quite a lot were, and therefore pull himself upwards, 360 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.240 and they had. There was an organization called the charity 361 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:49.039 organization Society in which you not only gave money, but 362 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.559 you walked and visited, walked to and visited the homes 363 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:55.759 of the poor, You spoke to them, you gave them 364 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:59.480 moral advice, and if you lent the money, you're expected 365 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.079 to be repair In a sense, it was trying to 366 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.880 They were missionaries for the morality of the middle class. 367 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.079 Self help, thrift and sobriety will bring you happiness. And 368 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.039 of course everyone knew that the great, too great problems 369 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:24.079 of Victorian urban life were prostitution and drunkenness on the 370 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:27.759 scale which I think today we still can't imagine. 371 00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:30.759 Can you talk more about that that was right around 372 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:32.119 the nineteenth century, correct? 373 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:39.759 Yeah, Well, it is a sense that as the Industrial 374 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:45.480 Revolution and it's great overseas commercial successes give the British 375 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:47.720 people a very strong sense that they are a chosen 376 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.319 people now the agents of providence, and not only must 377 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:58.400 they uplift people abroad abolish slavery, but they must also 378 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:02.240 remake their own country tree into a godly, upright and 379 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:08.440 moral state. And this meant alleviating poverty, not my faring 380 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:13.319 money at it, but making the poor responsible. Just like 381 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:17.000 the middle classes. The poor must make their own destinies, 382 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:22.759 but they needed very intense guidance from above. And so 383 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:29.920 you had the Victorian lady visiting the working family, praying 384 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.000 with them, trying to guide them towards church, try to 385 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:39.880 help the wife reform a drunkard husband. And this may 386 00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:47.519 seem highly emotional or melodramatic, but the drunkenness, say the 387 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:51.920 murder of wives by husbands was usually caused by drunkness, 388 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:56.640 was fairly common in Victoria. In England, Oscar Wild's about 389 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:00.839 read in jail, the man about to be hanged has, 390 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.119 in a drunken fit, murdered his wife. And so you 391 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.960 could see the Victorians read a story like this and 392 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.119 say this is something we must do something about. This 393 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:13.559 is what God tells us to do. 394 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.759 Right. So you really saw that change, and there was 395 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.960 kind of a rise of evangelicalism. You write about how 396 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.640 there was almost kind of a stuffy kind of Christianity 397 00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:29.599 that really wanted to impose its will upon certain members, 398 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.279 members of the middle class in that society. It also 399 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.920 was fascinating, like you saw the in the architecture and 400 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.839 what was built the patronage of the middle class really 401 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.559