WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.600 We have this idea of private enterprise block chains that 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:06.559 are in public. That's the vision that's coming forward, and 3 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:08.560 Ethereum really is the best place to do that. It 4 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:13.080 has the security that we need, the uptime, the data availability, 5 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.359 and fees are reasonable. Right now, it's a good time 6 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:20.120 to launch in Etheroreum because the things are scaling, gas 7 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:20.839 vias are low. 8 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:29.120 Hey, everybody, welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, 9 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.399 Tony Edward, and joining me is Preston van Lohn, who 10 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:36.320 is the etherorem core developer at off Chain Labs. Preston, 11 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:37.159 great to have you on. 12 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:39.479 Yeah, great to be here, presidin. 13 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.079 I'm excited to chat with you as Ethereum just had 14 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:45.399 a major upgrade at the Epectra upgrade and have a 15 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:47.920 lot of questions for you. What does this mean, what 16 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:50.240 does it mean for l two's and much more. But 17 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:52.159 before we get to all of that, let's kick it 18 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:54.600 off with your background. Where are you from and what's 19 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:55.719 your professional background? 20 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:01.799 Sure, I am based in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm a software engineer, 21 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:07.079 mostly self taught. I was working, I guess before Ethereum. 22 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.760 I was working at Google in New York City and 23 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.920 I found Ethereum in twenty seventeen, kind of around the 24 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.480 hype of icos and people starting to do things and 25 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:23.519 getting a lot of attention, and I saw projects like 26 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:28.560 Crypto Kiddies that were really overwhelming the chain in terms 27 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:33.040 of like the capacity of what you could do, and 28 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.760 I thought, Wow, this is a really exciting project. A 29 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.799 lot of people are excited about it. I want to 30 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:43.159 help scale this and get it to a place that 31 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:47.599 really fulfills the vision of a world computer or decentralized, 32 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:54.159 unstoppable application platform. So started looking at that in twenty seventeen, 33 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:56.840 and at the end of the year I decided I 34 00:01:56.879 --> 00:02:01.799 wanted to work on that, kind of like moonlighting. I 35 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.879 linked up with some folks online, namely Rood Jordan and 36 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:10.240 Terrence Soal. We started a group called Prismatic Labs and 37 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.879 we started just building sharding for Ethereum and then proof 38 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:15.280 of steake. 39 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:18.960 What was the journey like going from let's say Web 40 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.599 two working at Google to Web three? Did you have 41 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.319 to learn new coding languages or was it kind of 42 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:26.319 a natural progression. 43 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:31.000 Yeah, So my role in Google was the software engineering 44 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.400 in ADS. I think it was like as a Web two, 45 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.719 as you could get we had a Java stack like 46 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.319 in super Enterprise, you know, all this kind of stuff, 47 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:43.120 and I would say I would frame it differently. I 48 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.599 would say, we get to learn new languages. I was 49 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.560 really excited about the Go programming language, and when I 50 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:51.639 got hired at Google, I expressed interest and I said 51 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:53.439 I want to work on this language, and they kind 52 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.560 of laughed and said, well, your background is in Java, 53 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:00.840 so here's another Java job. And I didn't particularly enjoying that. 54 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:03.439 I did like the challenges of working at a scale 55 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:07.599 and impact like Google, but not so much the actual 56 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:14.360 programming aspects. So it was mostly a mix between like 57 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:18.479 a personal interest to have a positive impact on Ethereum 58 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:21.599 and an opportunity to learn something new. I would say 59 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.319 that when we for most of us that started the 60 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:30.599 Prison project, this was our first Go project we'd ever 61 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.800 worked on. It would make it to production, and that 62 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:35.560 was the interest of like, oh, I want to learn 63 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:39.000 this kind of cool, shiny tech and work on Ethereum, 64 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:41.719 and really really enjoyed it ever since then. 65 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:45.680 My backgrounds in digital marketing, so I know a lot 66 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:48.719 about what Google has been doing. And you mentioned you 67 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:53.280 worked in the advertising side of the business, and this 68 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:55.960 is a hard question, but I'm very curious about your 69 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.479 perspective on this. When do you see blockchain and web 70 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.599 three with micro payments and tokens disrupting that publisher and 71 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.080 advertiser model the way it's set up right now where 72 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.319 Google is the middleman, right, but eventually maybe kind of 73 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:13.759 like what the Brave browser and the Bad token are 74 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.079 doing that we have that moment. 75 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:21.959 I think that's a great use case for blockchains. The 76 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:27.000 hard part about this is fraud detection and like spam, right, 77 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:32.000 so why Google is taking so much of a cut 78 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:35.079 when they do ads that I don't remember these act numbers. 79 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.120 I think it's like they take forty percent of the payments, right. 80 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:41.759 It may have changed since then, but what you're really 81 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:48.920 paying for is as a website owner that wants to 82 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:51.480 serve ads, you want to be sure that these ads 83 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:53.759 are not going to be like viruses and scams and 84 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:55.800 these are the kind of things. So Google has invested 85 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.639 a lot a lot of energy and time into fraud 86 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.639 and scal detection, and then they have a really really 87 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:07.720 complicated auction process that's kind of like their secret source 88 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:10.600 of ads. Even working in ads, they had no access 89 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.759 to it, so I don't know exactly how it works, 90 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.639 but you can imagine that's a really really hard problem 91 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:20.199 to solve. So with that said, there are a lot 92 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.000 of really innovative and cool techniques that are coming through 93 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:28.519 in blockchain. I imagine that there's some kind of zero knowledge 94 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:30.560 proof stuff you could do where you could have some 95 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:34.800 assured assurance that the code that's going to run is 96 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:37.240 does what it says it's going to do, and maybe 97 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:39.560 it's like verifiable and like you can only do one thing, 98 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.839 which is like to serve the ad and through there 99 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:46.360 it's a race to the bottom on fees. Right of 100 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.720 in terms of middleman, you have some kind of infrastructure 101 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:54.399 aspect which can probably be solved by a blockchain. You know, 102 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:59.600 there's like even maybe ethereum blob space would be interesting 103 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:03.240 for this because ads are typically ephemeral anyway, you run 104 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:06.680 a campaign for a couple of months maybe so you 105 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:10.000 can post your data there and maybe that's served by websites. 106 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.480 There's a proof that the code does exactly what we're 107 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.439 supposed to do, and then the platform fees would be 108 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.600 super small. Like that's the great part about blockchain is 109 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:25.800 it's a risk to the bottom on fees. And another 110 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:31.399 thing would be the payments coming through very quickly with Google. 111 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:36.560 I think the publishers are paid out maybe monthly, and 112 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.720 if there's any problem with your account, they can stop payment. 113 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:43.000 I remember there was a class action, a lawsuit for 114 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:50.959 publishers they had flagged as malicious maybe or whatever the 115 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:53.839 reason was, they canceled your account. If you had any 116 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:58.279 pending payments, like payments you had legitimately earned, they would 117 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:00.759 not pay them. They just stopped. They said, you've we 118 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.360 don't approve your activity. We're canceling everything your account. Any 119 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:09.439 pinning payments you have didn't come through. Google lost that lawsuit, 120 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:12.759 but that wouldn't have been a thing on a blockchain platform. 121 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.279 It would have been streaming like by the by the 122 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.680 block basically. So there's definitely a better world out there 123 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.759 for advertising. I'm really interested in seeing how that goes, 124 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:26.720 because as much as people dislike ads, you know, there's 125 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:30.720 some when when when you do get that one once 126 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.199 in a lifetime, I guess AD that appeals to you, 127 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:36.839 it's like, okay, cool, like I found something I was 128 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:40.519 looking for. Or maybe with the innovations in Aire or 129 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.360 some like promoted things, but they're more applicable to you. 130 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:48.199 So I'm optimistic about that we can have an impact. 131 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:49.399 There, oh for sure. 132 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.079 And I'm curious if too, or to see if Google 133 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.360 itself decides to integrate blockchain, as they've been dabbling and 134 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:00.800 exploring certain things on the Google cloud side. Maybe they 135 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.680 integrate the ethereum right, Maybe they're the ones who make 136 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.160 the updates here, even though it may be taking money 137 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:09.839 out of their pocket, but if they see disruption down 138 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:12.000 the road, they make the change. 139 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:13.480 But we'll have to wait and see. 140 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:16.800 Yeah, And like in the model I describe, maybe they're 141 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:19.920 one of the actors in the system that uses their 142 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:25.160 fraud detection activity as like making attestations to say, like 143 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.279 you can run this ad because I've verified it, I'm 144 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.160 a trusted source. Here's the proof of what I did, 145 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:34.720 and so on. And there's some there's some utility there 146 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:38.519 that they would earn revenue from because it's there are 147 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:42.679 more actors than just the advertiser and the publisher. There 148 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:46.279 is you do have some things in between that are 149 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.159 worth paying for, and that's I think would be a 150 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:49.799 good use case. 151 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.840 Oh for sure. Tell us a bit about off chain labs. 152 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:57.519 What do you guys do the off Team Labs. So 153 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.919 this is our company is the ones that built the 154 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:06.399 Arbitrum L two and we also developed the Prism consistence 155 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:10.320 client for Ethereum. I could dive more into either of 156 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:13.960 those if you like. Those are two big things. 157 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:17.440 So let's talk about Arbitram given that it's a layer 158 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.320 two and why Arbitram was created, and you know essentially 159 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:21.879 it's mission. 160 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.360 Yeah, the mission is simple, it's to scale Ethereum. L 161 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.480 two's we think of as an extension of Ethereum. They 162 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.519 they make a trade off to say we can go 163 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:38.759 faster here through centralizing. The sequencers say we're going to 164 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:42.720 organize the transactions first and first out. So the first 165 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:44.360 one we see is the first one's going to be 166 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.039 landing in the block, and you don't have to trust 167 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:51.360 the sequencer. At any point, you can exit the chain, 168 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:56.480 you can force the transaction to go through. So it's 169 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:00.159 it's a trade off that's made in centralization, but you 170 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:03.759 still have the same security guarantees as may net. The 171 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.720 sequencer can't steal your money, they can't print money, they 172 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.360 can't censor you, they can't stop you from doing what 173 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:13.559 you want to do. You're still able to do everything, 174 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:17.519 So With that model in mind, we're able to create 175 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.440 a blockchain that goes fast. It goes I think two 176 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.679 hundred and fifty millis second block time strikes super super fast, 177 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.720 and with that you see a ton of activity. Fees 178 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.159 are cheaper for users. Users like this, they get faster confirmations. 179 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.519 That's appealing if you think about how are we going 180 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:38.919 to make this a real world thing and actually use 181 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.240 it in the real world, like maybe example being you're 182 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:44.759 at the grocery store and paying for your groceries. If 183 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:47.120 you are on Bitcoin, you don't want to wait ten 184 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:50.320 minutes for a block to come through. And Etherium likewise, 185 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.240 it is twelve seconds when you swipe your card. If 186 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.840 you're paid by a card at the kiosk, it's like 187 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:58.320 a three second thing. So it needs to be better 188 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:00.679 than that. And Arbatrom's saying, look, we can do it 189 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:04.440 in two hundred and fifty milliseconds, go super fast, and 190 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.960 there are basically no trade offs made in terms from 191 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.440 the end user. You still have all of the principles 192 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.120 that you care about as an asiriend user. 193 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:17.720 Now, there have been many Layer two's build on top 194 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:22.120 of Etherorem. I think there's a I've heard somebody phrase 195 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:26.399 it the roll up race or something like that. What 196 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:29.879 do you think happens over time as etherorem layer one 197 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.159 becomes better. We we'll talk about the Petra upgrade, and 198 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.600 then there has to be some sort of consolidation of 199 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:37.519 the L two's. 200 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:39.879 So how do you see that playing out? 201 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:44.639 Yeah, the way I see the vision of the rollup 202 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:47.600 centric rode map. So you have a really strong L one. 203 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.559 This is where all the settlement happens. This is where 204 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:57.720 the applications that need the absolute best decentralization, like everything 205 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:03.360 at the base layer here, and then you have a 206 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:11.080 a a cluster or like a huge number of L twos, right, 207 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.799 and these can be tailored for specific applications. Maybe they're 208 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:18.480 called app chains, and you can call it however you like. 209 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:23.320 But the vision that I see is not necessarily consolidation 210 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.679 saying like some app chains or l twos are irrelevant, 211 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.200 so we'll merge them together. Rather, I think the L 212 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:35.279 twos are going to look as one homogeneous layer. So 213 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:40.399 when the big thing that Ethereum is working on is interoperability. 214 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:44.840 So when you have this homogeneous interoperability, it feels like 215 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:48.240 one layer. Like maybe it's slightly slower in terms of 216 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.679 instead of two hundred and fifty milliseconds to do some complex, 217 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:57.279 complex multichain transaction, it takes one second depending on the 218 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:02.120 slowest link in the chain there. But from a user perspective, 219 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:07.720 you would be able to express I want to borrow 220 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:11.519 an NFT from this chain and then deposit it into 221 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.360 a vault in another chain. And I want to buy 222 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.120 tokens over here and put them over here, or create 223 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.639 a new app or play a game and use funds 224 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:23.600 from another chain. It's all going to feel like one 225 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:26.639 big thing you're just going to understand, like am I 226 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.320 on L one or am I in the L two space? 227 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.720 And with that in mind, I think of it as 228 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:41.960 like a nation of cities with highways in between. And 229 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:45.480 before we had this in the US, before we had 230 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:52.600 this infrastructure of interstate highways, every city would thrive kind 231 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.559 of on its own, but when they were connected, that's 232 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.320 when the real innovation, or not innovation, that's when the 233 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:01.200 economy like really took off. Like we're able to freely 234 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.840 trade with other cities. That's going to be really huge. 235 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.840 So I'm super bullish on the idea that we'll have 236 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:15.960 a strong L one with this interconnected layer of L twos, 237 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:18.600 like there will be hundreds or thousands. I think every 238 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.440 major institution's going to win have one, and they're going 239 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.159 to be able to realize the benefits of blockchain while 240 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.519 also defining their own parameters. For a while, I think 241 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.720 at twenty eighteen or nineteen, there was a big excitement 242 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.960 around like enterprise blockchain, right where you can have this 243 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:43.399 consortium of institutions that would run their own blockchain so 244 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:45.720 that they can interact with each other with trust minimization. 245 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.879 I think those things will be done now on L 246 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.720 two's where they're saying we can have our own rules 247 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.360 while still benefiting from the L one security and with 248 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:59.799 the techniques of zero knowledge. They can do this all 249 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:05.360 in public without revealing any information about what's happening in 250 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.559 that blockchain, because that's another aspect that people say, well, 251 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:12.720 block chains are completely transparent in public. That's not always 252 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:16.240 a good use case for certain users, but there will 253 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.240 be solutions for them too. So I mean, it's it's 254 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.320 going to take over the world in every aspect of 255 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:24.919 financial applications. 256 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.879 I really believe that the President. I've never heard anyone 257 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:30.960 explain it like that. So that's really great. I have 258 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.559 a ton of follow up questions. You know, you mentioned 259 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.360 that different entities or corporations and so forth can have 260 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:40.679 their own L two. So do envision a world. Let's 261 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:44.240 say we use Apple as an example. Apple can do 262 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.679 certain transactions on the enterprise level, maybe to manage or 263 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.480 supply chain and so forth. 264 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:51.200 On the L one. 265 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.960 They could create their own L two and that could 266 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.720 be customer facing. Maybe it's integrated to the app store. 267 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:00.159 It enables, you know, some new features for customers and 268 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.559 so forth, and that could be a setup that they use, 269 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.759 Like that's a model that other companies can use as well. 270 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.440 Yeah, exactly. I think. So Apple can launch their own 271 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.799 L two and they have the ability to say, like 272 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.519 applications that run on iOS or whatever, maybe they run 273 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.200 in their own L three like L two on top 274 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.639 of the Apple L two, And so they can keep 275 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:30.879 their Apple ecosystem really really tight. And that's a big 276 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.399 benefit or a big need for them because they have 277 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:38.639 a really tight control on the supply chain. So they 278 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.399 want to make sure everything in the Apple ecosystem is excellent. 279 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.799 So they can do that and define the rules and 280 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.120 still say to users, you know, your property is your 281 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.279 property and you can take that and it's a top 282 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.320 of application as Ethereum l too. 283 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.960 Wow, there's so many possibilities there, And right away I 284 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.240 thought of QUIN and you know Base and how they're 285 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.799 leveraging that and how that's impact their revenue and. 286 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:08.599 What they're able to do. So it's it. 287 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.240 And just like Base, they don't necessarily have to have 288 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.319 a token, right, it could just be an ulto without 289 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.480 a token exactly. 290 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.400 Yeah, And with some of the innovations within Pectra, you 291 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:26.200 can natively have like sponsored transactions, so maybe or your 292 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.559 chain doesn't have gas. You know, there are no fees, 293 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:31.440 Like you can really tweak the way things work. It 294 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.799 doesn't have to be a copy of how the Ethereum 295 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.640 L one works. You can really define the rules the 296 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:42.400 way you wish. So having the concept of gas or 297 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:45.079 like a payment for gas may not work for Apple, 298 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.759 but they can enable you to do that through L 299 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.359 two's you know, they have dependency on L one, so 300 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:56.880 you're able to like force a transaction through whatever it 301 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.440 may be. But when you're actually transacting within the Apple space, 302 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.079 you may don't have to you know, have like ETHER 303 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:05.519 for gas or UCC for gas or whatever it may be. 304 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:06.599 M hmm. 305 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.000 That just opens up a world of possibilities. And I'm 306 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.279 assuming you know, once we have regulatory clarity here in 307 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:15.200 the United States, we could see a lot of companies 308 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.319 start to do this right, build their own L two's 309 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:20.799 I think, if I'm not mistaken, Sony and I was 310 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.839 just talking to Yatsu and Amocha brands yesterday about this 311 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:29.559 creating Sonium. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's an 312 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:33.440 Etherorem Layer two. I'm not sure, but I think so. 313 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:34.640 Yeah. 314 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.480 But it's just fascinating that the possibilities here and and 315 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.160 how these ecosystems can be built for these different companies 316 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.960 and brands to enhance their business customer retention because they 317 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:49.000 could issue NFTs and different things on chain. So it's 318 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.279 just it's just so fascinating. So let's talk about the 319 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:57.519 Ethereum Petra upgrade. What is this upgrade and what does 320 00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:59.000 it help Etherrem to achieve. 321 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:04.240 So the Pectra upgrade is an upgrade to the Ethereum 322 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.720 L one. We have three I think three pillars of 323 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:15.960 this this upgrade, that being there's a innovation in account 324 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:21.400 obstruction and that's like an improvement on user the user experience. 325 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.960 The end user experience. We have some optimizations for the 326 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.279 validator user experience. So there's like the folks that are 327 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.759 staking on the chain and are actually running and participating 328 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.480 in block production and at the stations. And then we 329 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:41.200 have some improvements to scaling that come through as like 330 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:47.640 a side effect of those of those features. So I 331 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.440 want to like dive into a little bit of each 332 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.519 of those things. Let's start with account obstruction, I think 333 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.559 is the most interesting. So what we have in Pector 334 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.160 we have this EAP called seven seven oh two, and 335 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:04.519 this allows normal user accounts, which we refer to as 336 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.920 eas or externally owned accounts. This is a distinction between 337 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.559 a user and a smart contract. So the EOA being 338 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:19.960 a user, they don't have the ability to run I 339 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.720 guess like complex transactions in the sense that a smart 340 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.920 contract could. So one example being there's this really annoying 341 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:31.279 ux where when you have an ARC twenty, a normal 342 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:36.440 token that you have to approve a contract like UNISWAP 343 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.799 to move it on your behalf. So when you wanted 344 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.279 to trade it, you actually had to approve the router 345 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.240 to take the funds and do all this, and that's 346 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:47.440 a two step process. You have to make the approval 347 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.599 and then make the transaction. Now, with this improvement in 348 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:55.440 seven seven O two, the IP seven SEO two, you 349 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.640 can deploy a piece of code to your account that's 350 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.720 that are just for that one transaction and then removed, 351 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:05.039 and that piece of code can do multiple things. So 352 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:07.680 you could say I'm deployed to my account and then 353 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.559 execute this the instructions are approved, the transaction, make the 354 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.960 trade on UNI swap buying ETH at this specific price 355 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.640 with this slippage, and then at the end, if it 356 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:22.000 all succeeds, then you remove the code afterwards, and then 357 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:26.279 the activity I wanted to do works, And there are 358 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.119 a lot of possibilities you can do with that. That's 359 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:30.960 like the I think the most frustrating experience I've had 360 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.000 on Ethereum was this approval process. But there are other 361 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:38.759 things you can do, like allowing sponsored transactions. So maybe 362 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.720 there's an app that wants to say we're onboarding users 363 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.279 and for the first like six months, we're going to 364 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.319 be paying for the gas for everybody. The way they 365 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.200 can do that is you create an account with them 366 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.880 to deploy the code, and you can make all of 367 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:59.720 your transactions off chain, and that the app will submit 368 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.480 the transactions on your behalf. They can mutate your account 369 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.680 just with the permissions you gave them. They'll pay the 370 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:11.480 guests and that's revocable at any time, and you reclaim 371 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:14.279 your account at any time, and you've set the parameters 372 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:16.640 so you can only do what they say. That's the 373 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.799 beauty of bark chain is it's verifiable to only do 374 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:25.160 what the code says. And the pector's been out in 375 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.480 like two weeks and I think there are already dozens 376 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:31.440 while it's to support this type of behavior, I actually 377 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:33.880 didn't expect it to be that quick, but we're seeing 378 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:38.640 that innovations in ux already, so that's super, super exciting. 379 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:43.400 Other things in Pectra that came along were on the 380 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:48.880 validator experience side. One thing that was a trade off 381 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.720 we made for simplicity with Ethereum was you said, if 382 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:55.279 you want to be a validator, you need thirty two 383 00:22:55.319 --> 00:23:00.960 EAS to do that, and your validator account thirty two 384 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:06.480 ETH is also the maximum you can have, So the 385 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.880 earnings you make the interest you make is not compounding. Right, 386 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:12.960 If I earned one ETH this year, I have thirty 387 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:16.599 three eighth, Well, only the first thirty two ETH was available. 388 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:21.119 Balance for my validator to have weight to produce blocks 389 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:24.720 or at testations. That was kind of a blemish. I 390 00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:27.119 think that could be easily improved. And what we did 391 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.200 was we said, let's increase the maximum effective balance from 392 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.559 thirty two to twenty forty eight, and we added the 393 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.599 feature where you can consolidate your validators, so instead of 394 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.359 running dozens of small validators, you can consolidate them into 395 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:48.599 into smaller fat validators. Where the benefit is that you 396 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:54.119 have now compounding interest, which is definitely appealing, and your 397 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:58.599 validator is having to send less messages because that one 398 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.599 validator now has the way of mini and so it's 399 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:06.799 one message has a more profound impact on deciding the 400 00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.680 head of the chain. So validators are voting on what 401 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.400