Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack this. We all rely on software for
Speaker 1: almost everything these days, don't.
Speaker 2: We absolutely banking, smart homes, everything.
Speaker 1: It's woven into the fabric of our lives. And frankly,
Speaker 1: the stakes for security have never felt higher.
Speaker 2: Yeah, incidents aren't just annoying anymore. They can be genuinely
Speaker 2: dangerous exactly.
Speaker 1: We're talking everything from massive data breaches to you know,
Speaker 1: critical system failures. It really makes you wonder as developers,
Speaker 1: what's our true obligation here to build software of the
Speaker 1: highest quality and standards.
Speaker 2: That sense of responsibility really resonates, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: It does, And.
Speaker 2: What's fascinating here is how deeply that mission is reflected
Speaker 2: in the source material we're diving into today. Alice and
Speaker 2: Bob learn Secure Coding.
Speaker 1: AH by Tanya Jacka.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she makes it really clear the book wasn't just
Speaker 2: for herself, but for you the listener, and well for
Speaker 2: the personal desire for loved ones to use software safely.
Speaker 1: That's powerful.
Speaker 2: It's a strong call to action, really to instill a
Speaker 2: sense of responsibility in every developer to build more trustworthy products,
Speaker 2: especially when I mean, we've all heard endless stories of
Speaker 2: data breaches and security.
Speaker 1: Incidents, too many stories.
Speaker 2: It truly sets the stage for our mission today understanding
Speaker 2: how to elevate our approach to software security.
Speaker 1: That's a powerful framing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if that's the why, what are the foundational principles
Speaker 1: the how? Today we're taking a deep dive into those
Speaker 1: core principles and practical steps for secure coding, drawing directly
Speaker 1: from this incredibly insightful book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots to cover.
Speaker 1: We'll explore general advice that applies across the board, specific
Speaker 1: best practices for say, popular technologies and common vulnerabilities to watch.
Speaker 2: Out for usual suspects.
Speaker 1: Our goal is really to equip you with the knowledge
Speaker 1: to create truly robust applications and hopefully contribute to a
Speaker 1: safer digital world. So where do we even begin when
Speaker 1: we're trying to build more secure software?
Speaker 2: Well, the foundation For.
Speaker 1: Many of us, I think trusting people is a natural instinct,
Speaker 1: but when it comes to systems, that mindset needs a
Speaker 1: fundamental shift, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: The book really hammers home the idea of adopting as
Speaker 1: zero trust model.
Speaker 2: It does, and this raises an important question. Why why
Speaker 2: is never assumed trust so critical?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Way, Because if you implicitly assume trust you're opening yourself
Speaker 2: up to a whole world of risk. I mean everything
Speaker 2: from credential stuffing attacks.
Speaker 1: Where they use stolen passwords from other breaches.
Speaker 2: Exactly that, or malformed data. You simply cannot trust any
Speaker 2: data you receive, not really, even if it's from your
Speaker 2: own company's internal APIs.
Speaker 1: Even internal stuff. Wow.
Speaker 2: Remember Alice's experience in the book where executives were fish
Speaker 2: because they had admin privileges and no anti malware. Oh right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's the stark example of what happens when trust is
Speaker 2: just assumed in a system. It truly highlights how every
Speaker 2: piece of data, every interaction needs validation.
Speaker 1: It's about being relentlessly proactive, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And part of that proactivity, which might sound a bit
Speaker 1: pessimistic but is actually incredibly realistic, is to assume breach
Speaker 1: and plan for failure precisely.
Speaker 2: And this isn't just about having a disaster recovery plan
Speaker 2: tucked away somewhere, No, No, it's about fundamentally altering your
Speaker 2: development mindset. Imagine every line of code you write, you
Speaker 2: design it assuming it will be probed, tested, or even compromised.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what does that actually mean in practice?
Speaker 2: Well, It affects your testing, your logging, your error handling,
Speaker 2: not just at the end, but from day one, right
Speaker 2: from the start. It means designing your systems, your processes,
Speaker 2: and your reactions as if a breach will happen, like
Speaker 2: launching your incident response the moment of vulnerability.
Speaker 1: Is reported, not waiting for proof of exploit.
Speaker 2: Exactly, using multiple layers of defense, constantly monitoring your network
Speaker 2: for suspicious activity. It's about building in resilience from the
Speaker 2: ground up, not just cleaning up after the fact.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, if we accept that breaches are kind of
Speaker 1: inevitable a matter of when, not if, how do we
Speaker 1: make secure choices the easy choices for developers because often
Speaker 1: the secure way feels harder.
Speaker 2: That's a key challenge.
Speaker 1: The book introduces this concept of secure defaults or a
Speaker 1: paved road right yep, where the most secure settings are
Speaker 1: the default Yes.
Speaker 2: And this is a potential game changer because it applies
Speaker 2: both to the products you build for users and your
Speaker 2: own internal development environments.
Speaker 1: How so well.
Speaker 2: Examples from the source material include creating clear policies and
Speaker 2: importantly tools for things like secret management, even setting up
Speaker 2: pre commit hooks.
Speaker 1: In the version control Yeah.
Speaker 2: Hooks that actually reject code if it contains secrets. Imagine
Speaker 2: a system where the easiest path for a developer is
Speaker 2: also the most secure.
Speaker 1: That's the dream.
Speaker 2: It's also why things like security policy compliance, you know,
Speaker 2: actually prioritizing fixes for broken policies and using static application
Speaker 2: security testing or SASD.
Speaker 1: Where tools scan the code.
Speaker 2: Itself right, using SAS to automatically block bad code patterns
Speaker 2: before they even get checked in. That's crucial.
Speaker 1: And speaking of making secured choices easier, a cornerstone of
Speaker 1: that has to be applying the principle of least privilege.
Speaker 1: Don't give more access than necessary for only as long
Speaker 1: as necessary. Sounds simple, but I know in practice teams
Speaker 1: can struggle with this, finding that balance between security and
Speaker 1: well convenience.
Speaker 2: It's a common struggle absolutely. But the real insight here,
Speaker 2: I think, is understanding how reducing that blast radius isn't
Speaker 2: just a security win, it can actually simplify maintenance and
Speaker 2: compliance in the long run too.
Speaker 1: How does that work?
Speaker 2: Well, think about it. Whether it's giving a user access
Speaker 2: to a network or an application, every privilege granted carries risk.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: The book illustrates this really well with Bob's strategy at
Speaker 2: we hack Purple creating separate vaults like secure containers with
Speaker 2: specific access for different teams. Marketing gets one admin gets another.
Speaker 1: Okay, segmented access exactly.
Speaker 2: So if someone leaves, you only have to rotate a
Speaker 2: small subset of credentials. That saves immense time and reduces
Speaker 2: risk compared to having shared overly brought access. It's all
Speaker 2: about minimizing the damage if an account is ever compromised.
Speaker 1: Right, containing the potential fallout makes sense. So we've covered
Speaker 1: designing securely, but once that data starts flowing in, that's
Speaker 1: often where the real vulnerabilities creep in, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, that's prime attack surface.
Speaker 1: The book really emphasizes input validation and outputting coding.
Speaker 2: And this is fundamental. So many attacks start here. Any
Speaker 2: data entering your application or API is a potential attack vector, period.
Speaker 1: And the critical insight you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2: Yes, never assume data is safe, even if it comes
Speaker 2: from your own database, because it might have been maliciously
Speaker 2: stored there previously. Someone might have found a way to
Speaker 2: poison your data store.
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, paranoia is good here.
Speaker 2: A healthy dose, And for web applications, outputting coding is
Speaker 2: essential to prevent cross site scripting excess.
Speaker 1: As injecting malicious scripts into websites.
Speaker 2: Precisely, and a huge takeaway from the book something really practical.
Speaker 2: Always use an allow list when validating input, not a
Speaker 2: block list.
Speaker 1: Explain that difference again.
Speaker 2: Okay, so a blocklist tries to list all the bad
Speaker 2: things like specific characters or script tags and reject them.
Speaker 2: But trying to block every possible bad input is a
Speaker 2: losing battle. Hackers are clever, they'll find ways around it exactly.
Speaker 2: The book points out examples using URL encoding to bypass
Speaker 2: simple blocks, and allow list, on the other hand, defines
Speaker 2: precisely what is acceptable, like only alphanumeric characters of a
Speaker 2: certain length, so.
Speaker 1: You define the good not the bad.
Speaker 2: Right. It's far more robust and usually easier to maintain
Speaker 2: because you're focused on what's permitted, not trying to guess
Speaker 2: every possible attack.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. And then there's the
Speaker 1: big one, sequel injection. It feels like a classic, almost
Speaker 1: mythical vulnerability.
Speaker 2: Sometimes, but it's still out there.
Speaker 1: Still the infamous number one worst vulnerability for web apps.
Speaker 1: According to many sources, it's almost disturbingly easy to exploit
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: It really is Bob's eye opening experience at that capture
Speaker 2: the flag contest, learning how something as simple looking as
Speaker 2: or one on one could completely bypass a log instagram
Speaker 2: just like that, Just like that. It illustrates just how
Speaker 2: powerfully simple yet devastating these attacks can be.
Speaker 1: So what's the defense the silver bullet?
Speaker 2: Well, there's no single silver bullet in security. But for
Speaker 2: SQL injection, the solution, as the book emphasizes, is using
Speaker 2: parameterized queries or stored procedures properly implement.
Speaker 1: Okay, parameterized queries, what do they do?
Speaker 2: They ensure your user input is always treated as data,
Speaker 2: just plaintext, never as executable code. It strips away those
Speaker 2: special powers an attacker might try to inject with things
Speaker 2: like or one or one makes their attempts harmless data
Speaker 2: instead of active commands.
Speaker 1: Okay, crucial technique. Now shifting gears slightly. A constant headache
Speaker 1: for many developers I know from experience is secret manage.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, big one.
Speaker 1: It's just so tempting, isn't it to store connection strings
Speaker 1: or apikeys right there in your code, or maybe you
Speaker 1: can fig file checked into source control.
Speaker 2: It is tempting easy, and the author shares a really
Speaker 2: telling personal antecdote about finding live banking passwords in source
Speaker 2: code in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: One, Wow in twenty twenty one, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Long after she knew better, which just highlights that despite
Speaker 2: common knowledge, the message isn't getting through to everyone, or
Speaker 2: maybe the tooling isn't easy enough.
Speaker 1: So what's the core principle here?
Speaker 2: Secrets are fundamentally for machines to authenticate to other machines,
Speaker 2: not for humans to read or manage directly in code.
Speaker 2: The solution is dedicated secret management tools, things like Hashi
Speaker 2: Court Vault as your Key Vault AWS secrets manager tools
Speaker 2: built for the job exactly, and the book provides a
Speaker 2: clear actionable path. First, migrate any existing secrets out of
Speaker 2: your codebases.
Speaker 1: That's step one the cleanup.
Speaker 2: Then, crucially, implement those pre commit hooks we talked about
Speaker 2: earlier in your version control hooks that specifically block any
Speaker 2: future attempts to check in secret.
Speaker 1: They get impossible to make the mistake again.
Speaker 2: Essentially, yes, make it practically impossible to accidentally expose these
Speaker 2: crucial credentials.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've talked code data input, but our systems
Speaker 1: constantly interact with the outside world too. How do we
Speaker 1: secure those interactions data flying back and forth?
Speaker 2: Communication security is absolutely paramount HTTPS everywhere. Yes, the book
Speaker 2: is very clear all data transmitted over the Internet must
Speaker 2: be encrypted using AHGTPS and the latest version of Transport
Speaker 2: Layer Security TLS. TLS the underlying protocol, right, the cryptographic
Speaker 2: protocol that actually ensures secure communication over a network. And
Speaker 2: a critical warning here something Bob learned the hard way
Speaker 2: in another CTF story, Oh never try to write your
Speaker 2: own encryption software.
Speaker 1: Oh roll your own cryptot.
Speaker 2: His homemade encryption which turned out to be just double
Speaker 2: base sixty four encoding, not real encryption at all. Oh
Speaker 2: dear was in less than a minute. It truly underlines
Speaker 2: why encryption is a job for experts trying to diy
Speaker 2: it is almost guaranteed to create a massive vulnerability. Use
Speaker 2: the standard, vetted libraries and protocols.
Speaker 1: Good advice. So when we're talking about hardening the entire system,
Speaker 1: not just the web app part, what about securing things
Speaker 1: like databases themselves or mobile apps. They have unique challenges.
Speaker 2: Absolutely each layer needs attention. The book outlines a multifaceted
Speaker 2: approach for databases. It's things like hardening the server itself,
Speaker 2: securing the network connections to it, firewalls and such right
Speaker 2: and using least privilege for access, for instance, making sure
Speaker 2: the application connects with a read only account if that's
Speaker 2: all it needs, not with full database owner or DBO access.
Speaker 1: Minimize the app's power over.
Speaker 2: The database exactly. Plus regular patching obviously and strict detailed
Speaker 2: logging are non negotiable, and for mobile apps, different set
Speaker 2: of concerns. There. You need to think about things like
Speaker 2: obfuscating and minifying your code to deter reverse engineering, making.
Speaker 1: It harder to figure out how the app works.
Speaker 2: Correct, And be extremely careful with storing sensitive data in memory,
Speaker 2: especially on Android where memory isn't always truly wiped after use,
Speaker 2: potentially leaving data accessible.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting nuance.
Speaker 2: And critically and sure sensitive data isn't included in unencrypted
Speaker 2: device backups. That's a common slip up. It's about being
Speaker 2: paranoid at every single layer.
Speaker 1: Okay, paranoia is the theme. What about error messages? You'd
Speaker 1: think being helpful is good telling users exactly what went wrong,
Speaker 1: you would think so, but not always the case in
Speaker 1: security isn't.
Speaker 2: No, that's another lesson Bobb learned the hard way during
Speaker 2: a penetration test.
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 2: Those polite, detailed error messages that reveal too much about
Speaker 2: the internal system workings like specific database errors, file paths,
Speaker 2: server versions, information leakage precisely. They can be absolute gold
Speaker 2: mines for attackers, allowing them to map out your system
Speaker 2: and refine their attacks.
Speaker 1: So what's the advice.
Speaker 2: It's simple, really. For end users, error messages should be generic,
Speaker 2: something like bad input, please try again, or an error
Speaker 2: curd please contact support. Keep it vague, yes, save the details.
Speaker 2: The stack traces all the specifics for your internal logging
Speaker 2: and debugging systems where only authorized personnel can actually access them.
Speaker 2: Don't give attackers free information, right.
Speaker 1: Log it securely, don't display publicly. Makes sense now, the
Speaker 1: book really emphasizes integrating security throughout the entire software development
Speaker 1: life cycle the SDLC.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a core theme.
Speaker 1: It's not just an afterthought or a final check but
Speaker 1: woven into every single phase. That sounds great in theory,
Speaker 1: but you know, in practice, I've seen teams struggle to
Speaker 1: make it a continuous process rather than just a rushed
Speaker 1: checkbox exercise.
Speaker 2: At the end, you've hit on a crucial point there.
Speaker 2: It's easy to say shift left, but harder to do consistently.
Speaker 1: So how do we make it real?
Speaker 2: It's not just about doing security at the end, it's
Speaker 2: making it fundamental, from defining explicit security requirements right at
Speaker 2: the start of a.
Speaker 1: Project before coding even begins.
Speaker 2: Exactly, performing threat modeling during the design phase. And this
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be super formal all the time. Even
Speaker 2: an informal team brainstorming session about what could go wrong
Speaker 2: can be hugely beneficial.
Speaker 1: Just thinking like an attacker for a bit, right.
Speaker 2: Then using those AST tools we mentioned, and also software
Speaker 2: composition analysis or SCA tools ah, the.
Speaker 1: Ones that check third party libraries.
Speaker 2: Yes, checking your dependencies for known vulnerabilities during coding, and
Speaker 2: of course rigorous security testing both automated and manual before release.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot for developers to take on.
Speaker 2: It can be, which is why the book encourages you
Speaker 2: to become a security champion within your team.
Speaker 1: What's that involved?
Speaker 2: Acting as a kind of liaison with the main security team.
Speaker 2: You get extra training, maybe increase visibility, and you help
Speaker 2: translate security needs into practical steps your team can take.
Speaker 2: You become the go to person for security questions on
Speaker 2: the team.
Speaker 1: So bridging the gap between dev and sec.
Speaker 2: Exactly, directly contributing to protecting your colleagues, customers, and the
Speaker 2: whole organization.
Speaker 1: That's interesting that the book also touches on something very current,
Speaker 1: very rapidly evolving, using AI safely in development.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the elephant in the room these days.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of excitement obviously, but also a lot
Speaker 1: of potential pitfalls, isn't there?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it highlights common pitfalls directly. The core advice
Speaker 2: never allow AI to have agency over your systems or data, meaning.
Speaker 1: Don't let it deploy code or change settings automatically.
Speaker 2: Precisely, you, the human, need to validate all code written
Speaker 2: by AI before it goes anywhere near production, runsst and
Speaker 2: sea tools on it, just like you would your own code.
Speaker 1: Treat it like code from a junior dev, your.
Speaker 2: Mentoring kind of Yeah, and critically, you need to understand
Speaker 2: what the AI generated code actually does yourself. Don't just
Speaker 2: blindly trust it because the AI said it works, just like.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't blindly pull a random image from Docker Hub.
Speaker 2: Exactly same principle. The human in the loop is still
Speaker 2: the ultimate gatekeeper for security and quality.
Speaker 1: Okay, wow, this deep dive has really shown I think
Speaker 1: that secure coding isn't just another technical skill to learn.
Speaker 2: No, it's more than that.
Speaker 1: It's profound mindset shift, isn't it And a continuous.
Speaker 2: Journey, definitely continuous.
Speaker 1: From understanding these core principles like never assume trust and
Speaker 1: least privilege to implementing practical steps like parameterized queries and
Speaker 1: proper secret management, every choice you make as a developer
Speaker 1: truly has an.
Speaker 2: Impact, every single one.
Speaker 1: It's really about building quality and trustworthiness into every line
Speaker 1: of code from the ground up.
Speaker 2: And if we connect this to the bigger picture, it
Speaker 2: raises an important question for you, the listener. In a
Speaker 2: world that's increasingly reliant on technology, what if every piece
Speaker 2: of software you interact with, your banking app, your smart
Speaker 2: home divides the systems at work. What if it was
Speaker 2: all built with the level of care and the security
Speaker 2: principles we discussed.
Speaker 1: Today, that would be significantly different.
Speaker 2: Think about the widespread impact, how much safer our digital
Speaker 2: lives could actually be. The responsibility really lies with all
Speaker 2: of us developers, testers, architects, everyone to raise the bar,
Speaker 2: to keep learning and to proactively engage with these security practices.
Speaker 1: That's a powerful thought for you to mull Over. The
Speaker 1: book makes a great point too that technical debt is
Speaker 1: almost always security debt and disguise.
Speaker 2: Oh that's so true, that outdated library, that unpatched server
Speaker 2: security risks.
Speaker 1: So staying on top of updates and managing dependencies isn't
Speaker 1: just about efficiency or new features. It's fundamental to robust security,
Speaker 1: and our source encourages us all to be super rosers,
Speaker 1: not just in our technical skills, but in our awareness
Speaker 1: awareness that we as people who build and manage systems
Speaker 1: are targets.
Speaker 2: We have privileged access exactly, and.
Speaker 1: So we must protect our own work devices, our accounts
Speaker 1: are data with extreme vigilance. So maybe a final question
Speaker 1: for you listening, what new security practice will you try
Speaker 1: to implement this week in your own projects, even a
Speaker 1: small one.
Speaker 2: And remember you don't have to figure this all out alone.
Speaker 2: Good point joining security communities like oas, finding mentors, or
Speaker 2: even just asking your organization's security team for help. These
Speaker 2: are invaluable steps. As the author says, they are experts
Speaker 2: hired specifically to help you make them earn their paychecks exactly.
Speaker 2: Your commitment to these principles, your questions, your efforts, they
Speaker 2: make a tangible difference. Not just for your own code,
Speaker 2: but really for the wider digital ecosystem we all depend on.
Speaker 1: That's it for this deep dive into secure coding. We
Speaker 1: hope this has given you plenty to think about and
Speaker 1: some actionable insights to apply. Hopefully, so join us next
Speaker 1: time for another deep dive into a topic that will
Speaker 1: leave you well informed and probably, as usual, a little surprised.
Speaker 1: Until then, keep digging,