Speaker 1: What's up, big guts? What's up, Big Gouts?
Speaker 2: Welcome Happy Wednesday, Happy Wednesday. I hope you're all doing
Speaker 2: well today. We've got a fun one today for you. Boy,
Speaker 2: do we have a fun one. We're gonna have the
Speaker 2: meanest person on the internet jump on, Jay Dyer. We're
Speaker 2: going to do a look at Mormonism. Got a couple
Speaker 2: of things for y'all to look at. But first I
Speaker 2: want to test audio before I waste Jay's time. And
Speaker 2: he says this is domb so waste time, dude, goofy.
Speaker 2: Let me just test it to make sure it's not
Speaker 2: a doubling.
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't want to. I don't want a situation
Speaker 3: where we're doubling.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna bring I'm gonna start a just pretty
Speaker 2: much the best cartoon that's ever existed. Thanks Jay for
Speaker 2: showing me this cartoon. I actually like the animation style
Speaker 2: of it. Just make sure it works here for you
Speaker 2: guys in the audience. So let me bring this on,
Speaker 2: and uh make sure you guys tell me if this
Speaker 2: is you hear it first of all, and second of all,
Speaker 2: if it's doubling, I don't want it doubling. Okay, Let
Speaker 2: me know in the chat. Okay, I don't want to
Speaker 2: get it too far into the gold because it's amazing.
Speaker 2: We gotta have Jay on here you no audio? Okay,
Speaker 2: that's not good. All right, let me just change this
Speaker 2: for a second.
Speaker 1: Then, how about how about still? No?
Speaker 2: Should be?
Speaker 3: Should be?
Speaker 2: I might have to share it within stream yard, which
Speaker 2: is fine with me. No, okay, okay, let me do this.
Speaker 2: Let me do it the other way. Then I'll bring
Speaker 2: it on a different style. Make sure it works this way. Okay, alright,
Speaker 2: here we go, Window.
Speaker 1: Mormon.
Speaker 2: Okay, now that this is up on this squeen, you
Speaker 2: guys tell me if now you hear it?
Speaker 3: Okay, please?
Speaker 2: Yeah, son of a I tell you a combination of
Speaker 2: Jay and I with technology. I tell you what?
Speaker 1: Tell you what?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Still? Huh? Okay, all right, hold on, let's try this.
Speaker 3: How about how about now.
Speaker 2: Bill?
Speaker 3: All right, well, just a long one second.
Speaker 2: Then I'm gonna change one thing here. I tried to
Speaker 2: test this earlier, but let me do this. Lose got
Speaker 2: this now, let's bring this down and share it one
Speaker 2: more time. You just gotta make you gotta make sure
Speaker 2: we got this. Thank you Jay for your patience. Sir,
Speaker 2: Also share audio. Here we go, Here we go, Look,
Speaker 2: here we go. Now it should work. Now we got it.
Speaker 2: Here we go. Tell me you guys like us.
Speaker 5: They say that long ago, on one of these planets,
Speaker 5: to an unidentified god and one of his goddess wives,
Speaker 5: a spirit child named Elohem was conceived. Yes, this spirit
Speaker 5: child was later born to human parents who gave him
Speaker 5: a physical body.
Speaker 2: Is literally the best thing I've ever seen. It's all
Speaker 2: my inspiration for cartooning is from this video. Okay, cool,
Speaker 2: without further ado, welcome the meanest person on the Internet,
Speaker 2: Jay Dyer, glad to.
Speaker 1: Be here and ready to hurt people's feelings.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, we're gonna hurt people's feelings. You've done extensive work.
Speaker 2: All the work has already been done against Mormonism. But
Speaker 2: it's fun to just kind of revisit, especially with all
Speaker 2: with all these cartoons and videos that you can find
Speaker 2: just such gold for Mormonism. It's just a it's like
Speaker 2: a special kind of aesthetic too. You don't find this.
Speaker 2: You don't find this kind of cartoon and stuff for Islam,
Speaker 2: do you?
Speaker 1: You do? You do?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 1: There are some Okay, good? Well, I mean they could compete.
Speaker 1: I think we did you and I did determine that
Speaker 1: this might be dumber, Yes, but they can They could
Speaker 1: compete because you've got Satan farting, You've got eternal Qurans
Speaker 1: that exists next to Allah, right, but it's monotheism. You've
Speaker 1: got uh, bodily fluid Hadith's that I won't go into.
Speaker 1: So yep, similarities between these two, but.
Speaker 2: The the kind of liberties specifically Mormons have taken. And
Speaker 2: to be as fair as possible, there's an early stage
Speaker 2: Mormonism where you find a lot of like, I hate
Speaker 2: to say crazier, but they're wacky. And is it fair
Speaker 2: to say modern Mormons are like, No, that's you know,
Speaker 2: we don't hold that anymore. We're moving away from that.
Speaker 2: Is there a sect of Mormonism who's basically saying, no,
Speaker 2: this early stuff that you guys are finding is not
Speaker 2: the real Mormonism. Are they separating themselves from it?
Speaker 1: They seem to be moving in the direction of downplaying
Speaker 1: it and being a little more woke. Okay. One of
Speaker 1: the splits the RLDS, Right, for example, they rebranded as
Speaker 1: the Community Church, so they've already adopted like a non
Speaker 1: denominational rebrand, right, But I mean, as far as I know,
Speaker 1: like all this stuff is technically still there.
Speaker 2: Okay, So pretending that someone in the Chat has only
Speaker 2: had a peripheral understanding of Mormonism, before we bring up
Speaker 2: some of these glorious links that you gave me in
Speaker 2: the text, can we give like a real quick summary
Speaker 2: of its beginnings, the kernel the seed of Mormonism.
Speaker 1: So basically, you had a young guy, Joseph Smith, who
Speaker 1: was kind of an adventurer, a treasure hunter. Supposedly, maybe
Speaker 1: he wanted to be a little Indiana Jones before Anana Jones,
Speaker 1: And he seemed to be troubled about the various religious
Speaker 1: sects and denominations and the claims of those religions, right,
Speaker 1: and so he supposedly went into the woods after visiting
Speaker 1: different denominations and prayed, and you asked God to reveal
Speaker 1: to him to him the true Church, or what the
Speaker 1: real true religion was, And the angel Moroni apparently appeared
Speaker 1: to him and told him that there were golden plates,
Speaker 1: and that these golden plates that were buried in North
Speaker 1: America had the secrets of what happened to the true
Speaker 1: tribes of Israel, the true Church. The Church was under
Speaker 1: apostasy and blackout. So sometime after the death the Apostles,
Speaker 1: between that time and Constantine, there's this blackout that's officially
Speaker 1: on the Mormon website, you can go read about the
Speaker 1: apostasy theory. And there's this vast array of wild, sort
Speaker 1: of comic booky stories about the history of the tribes
Speaker 1: of Israel, who are apparently some forms of Native Americans
Speaker 1: on North America. And the Book of Mormon is that
Speaker 1: history of this restored True Church. And so in the
Speaker 1: latter days the True Church has been restored. The church
Speaker 1: also got new revelations where he transcribed from this magical text,
Speaker 1: these golden tablets, which are supposed to be Egyptian hieroglyphics.
Speaker 1: They got new revelations about multiple wives, you know, polygamy,
Speaker 1: or I should say polytheism. God was once a man
Speaker 1: like us. He evolved to become God the Father. He
Speaker 1: has a flesh body, He impregnates women. He impregnated Mary,
Speaker 1: so it turns into a really kind of wild The
Speaker 1: best way I could describe is a wild sci fi
Speaker 1: space opera. And movies and TV shows like battles Ar
Speaker 1: Galactica are actually written by and based on Mormon ideas,
Speaker 1: and so they have the Lords of Colob. The planet
Speaker 1: that God the Father is from is called Collab. It's
Speaker 1: out there somewhere in a distant galaxy. This is actual
Speaker 1: Mormon teaching. And so they believe more, probably more important
Speaker 1: than all that, is that any new prophet has the
Speaker 1: ability to rewrite and change what came before. So they
Speaker 1: don't understand or believe that profits have to be consistent
Speaker 1: with the revelation that came before. A new prophet can
Speaker 1: literally just erase, change, correct, and write himself into prophecies.
Speaker 1: And that's actually what they think prophethood is. That's why
Speaker 1: the Mormon Church is governed by prophets that are living
Speaker 1: apostles who have divine revelations. Essentially, whatever they do is
Speaker 1: a prophetic divine revelation. They can add new teachings. There's
Speaker 1: multiple source documents. The Bible's corrupted and so it has
Speaker 1: to be corrected by doctrine and covenants, the Book of
Speaker 1: Mormon and the pearlar Grade Price. They also have further
Speaker 1: teachings from the Mormon prophets and bishops, they call them
Speaker 1: bishops and apostles. H that's the restored Church. And so
Speaker 1: here we are it's a uniquely Americanist religion. They have
Speaker 1: a very intense devotion to the Constitution, kind of a
Speaker 1: libertarianish ethos. They believe in a white Horse prophecy that
Speaker 1: the Constitution towards the end of America and of the
Speaker 1: world will be in danger and a Mormon, the Mormon
Speaker 1: Church will save the Constitution in America, they believe. So
Speaker 1: there's a very close tie in also to politics, and
Speaker 1: hence the you know presidential run of Mitt Romney and
Speaker 1: and people like that. So and for those who don't know,
Speaker 1: there's also close tie to the history of the Central
Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency. The Mormons are very useful for recruiting UH
Speaker 1: operatives among and spies amongst Mormon missionaries because they go
Speaker 1: over in the world and learn the local languages. So
Speaker 1: a lot of other things I'll cull influences, Masonic influences,
Speaker 1: But that's the basics.
Speaker 2: Gotcha, thank you for that. And and the is there
Speaker 2: influence on because because it sounds similar in the storyline
Speaker 2: is like scientology, like you create, there's like a cosmic
Speaker 2: aspect to it. There's a location, there's a there is
Speaker 2: there any relation between those in so far as how
Speaker 2: one UH fed off the other at all, or is
Speaker 2: it just totally different. The scientology has some some kind
Speaker 2: of fun that you would call goofy.
Speaker 1: There definitely are, they're both sci fi. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of there's any potential connect The only potential connections
Speaker 1: I could think of is that Mormonism eventually did wet
Speaker 1: itself pretty closely to what we call the deep state
Speaker 1: because they end up having the world's foremost genealogical library.
Speaker 1: M And that's important for Mormons because they believe in
Speaker 1: being baptized for their dead relatives.
Speaker 2: Right, you baptize and Frank, Right, you can baptize, go
Speaker 2: up to the grave and re it's kind of without there.
Speaker 2: What I found interesting is that that sort of after them,
Speaker 2: like retroactive baptism for the dead, they actually have someone
Speaker 2: stand in the place of who would be being baptized.
Speaker 2: For instance, when they visit the grave of v and Frank
Speaker 2: and say let's baptize, they actually have a stand in,
Speaker 2: you know, like you would a like a like on
Speaker 2: a Hollywood set, like a stand in for the light. Right,
Speaker 2: they baptized the person in place. That was interesting to
Speaker 2: find out.
Speaker 1: But when you say.
Speaker 2: Restored, that means that something was whole and was broken
Speaker 2: and needs to be restored. So like let's say our
Speaker 2: bone breaks, for us to say let's restore the bone,
Speaker 2: it assumes that it once was whole being repatched up.
Speaker 2: So from a Mormon view, what's the first whole wholeness
Speaker 2: of the bone that they're restoring or did they not
Speaker 2: get into that they don't want to.
Speaker 1: Well, I think they think that in the Apostolic era
Speaker 1: there was a true church, and then they point to
Speaker 1: text like where Paul talks about the Apostasy, and then
Speaker 1: they went out from among us and so forth, and
Speaker 1: there will be you know, infiltrators coming into the church,
Speaker 1: Paul Warrens, Timothy. They point to those as proofs of
Speaker 1: a great Apostasy, which is from the first to third century.
Speaker 1: So it's actually the same arguments that you see Seven
Speaker 1: Day Adventists, Fundamentalist, Baptist right. They make this argument just
Speaker 1: like Mormons, and they may have actually stolen that argument
Speaker 1: from some of those groups because if you go to
Speaker 1: the Latter Day Saint website where they lay out their
Speaker 1: official position on the Great Apostasy, it sounds exactly like
Speaker 1: what Seven Day Adventists and others say. So I think
Speaker 1: there have been cult overlaps, and at least in the
Speaker 1: case of like Howard Hughes. You know, Howard Hughes was
Speaker 1: in the Mormon sphere. He was a Mormon at least
Speaker 1: I think for most of his life. I if he
Speaker 1: died in Mormon or not. But and of course Howard
Speaker 1: he was working very closely with the American establishment. I
Speaker 1: think he even had like intelligence agent, you know, secret
Speaker 1: service bodyguards who were he would only use Mormon bodyguards. Right, So,
Speaker 1: even at that time Howard Hugh was working very closely
Speaker 1: with the establishment in America, Mormonism was pretty pretty soon attached,
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, to the power structure, and
Speaker 1: since that time. Another really important thing to note about
Speaker 1: Mormonism is that it's not just a church. It's also
Speaker 1: an international corporation. They are chartered as a corporation. They
Speaker 1: have a hedge fund, they have multiple shell companies, and
Speaker 1: they're structured very much like Gladio was structured with all
Speaker 1: of its fronts and covers and shells, and so they
Speaker 1: have stocks they have. In fact, they used to own
Speaker 1: a lot of stock in corporations that sold caffeine, which
Speaker 1: is kind of weird because you think caffeine is evil.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's funny. Do they have colub coin or anything
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Well, they had stalking like Pepsi and Taco bell and
Speaker 1: it's like, well that has caffeine in But anyway.
Speaker 2: That's bizarre. So before we get into some of these
Speaker 2: hilarious cartoons in the sort of deboot sphere that we're
Speaker 2: all in these panels and there's a lot of debating
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: You invite Mormons, but.
Speaker 2: Is it It seems to me just from the from
Speaker 2: from just looking at it, that when we debate like
Speaker 2: heterodox Protestantism and these kinds of things that are they're
Speaker 2: very rampant and modern in the West, even though Mormonism
Speaker 2: is just as rampant. And uh, they're here with us, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, they they take up a lot of real estate,
Speaker 2: They they create their own little mini cities and so forth.
Speaker 2: But is it fair to say that we don't even
Speaker 2: look at them in the same race as say the
Speaker 2: normal debate with like heterodox because you notice how we
Speaker 2: debate and we're like, okay, so let's debate the solas.
Speaker 1: Let's debate this.
Speaker 2: We're talking about the authority of the church ultimately, and
Speaker 2: who is the true church, whereas like it seems like
Speaker 2: Mormonism is just not even it's just kind of adjacent
Speaker 2: to that argument.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense.
Speaker 2: They're not like, it doesn't seem like they're in the
Speaker 2: same race as these other things we debate. They're like
Speaker 2: their own sort like.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. One reason for that, I think
Speaker 1: is that Mormonism, although it's had here and there a
Speaker 1: couple apologists, it does not rely on logic argumentation, debate
Speaker 1: historical facts. They have some people who try to sort
Speaker 1: of craft those things after post Hawk, but it's not
Speaker 1: had anything really to back it up because of the
Speaker 1: fantastical claims of Joseph Smith, and so it's kind of
Speaker 1: had to rely on feelings. And this is pretty well known.
Speaker 1: You know, they tell you when they try to convert you,
Speaker 1: they say, you know, pray and see how you feel.
Speaker 1: And that's a huge, you know, element, the emotivism versus
Speaker 1: anything that with rational dialectical discourse. And so now they're
Speaker 1: not really known for apologetics. But for whatever reason, the
Speaker 1: last year or so, we have seen a real big
Speaker 1: push online, especially on Twitter for Mormon stuff, just like
Speaker 1: with Islam, and so I think we might see more
Speaker 1: and more of these pseudo apologists pop up. But I mean,
Speaker 1: as you can tell with I think we've had probably
Speaker 1: ten Mormons by now come on my debate streams. It
Speaker 1: doesn't go very far.
Speaker 2: No, That's that's why I found it interesting. And I've
Speaker 2: had a sudden uptick in Mormon trolls in my chat
Speaker 2: and I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I've never really
Speaker 2: had some linger, but there's been a noticeable uptick in
Speaker 2: the opposition, even if their bots or whatever. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: that's that's interesting that that's happening recently. But anything else
Speaker 2: you want to preface before we get into this amazing
Speaker 2: cartoon that everyone needs to see, as far as like
Speaker 2: just general Mormonism for instance, is it a do you
Speaker 2: think Mormonism is a is any kind of threat to
Speaker 2: to the West the same way other things are or
Speaker 2: is it just like a different kind of thing that's
Speaker 2: just sort of in the in the peripheral as like
Speaker 2: A like A.
Speaker 1: I think as people, as people get dumbed down and
Speaker 1: are not able to utilize critical thinking, which is happening
Speaker 1: at a more extreme and more extreme and more extreme rate.
Speaker 1: I think that the low IQ cults like Mormonism and
Speaker 1: Islam will appeal, unfortunately to people in the West. And
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that Mormonism appeals maybe you know
Speaker 1: so much Islam, but Mormonism appeals to people in the
Speaker 1: West precisely because they think of it as another Christian
Speaker 1: denomination that's very family centered, very wholesome, very you know,
Speaker 1: centered around you know, family, home, pizza, Knight or whatever.
Speaker 1: The thing that they have is that.
Speaker 2: So it's like it's a form of base for some people,
Speaker 2: like the like you've seen the whole Truther thing, where
Speaker 2: especially because of Krunka, people sort of pulled out of
Speaker 2: modernity and they're kind of scapegoating modernity and kind of
Speaker 2: including the establishment all is this one giant thing like
Speaker 2: a technocrat, a technocratic monster, And so you saw people
Speaker 2: kind of eject themselves and go to the land. And
Speaker 2: I could see how how you just phrase that, like
Speaker 2: how people move toward Islam or Mormonism because it's like
Speaker 2: the alternative sort of well, it's kind of based. It's
Speaker 2: based enough, it's family, Oh, polygamy is based, and it's
Speaker 2: really just like more it's really just more materialism. Though
Speaker 2: that that seems to be a reaction to materialism, like
Speaker 2: where it's like leave the cities, go to the land.
Speaker 2: But then you're like, what, where's the church, And you're like, well,
Speaker 2: my garden is the church, the family is the is
Speaker 2: the church is. We're doing it right here. I could
Speaker 2: see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a sex cult. I mean, let's just be honest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Mormonism is an eternal sex cult where you will have
Speaker 1: spirit wives and spirit babies and spirit sex for all eternity.
Speaker 1: It's very close to what Mohammed promised his followers for martyrdom.
Speaker 1: You get the virgins in heaven. So again yet another
Speaker 1: parallel where essentially humans are just being manipulated by very
Speaker 1: basic drives like sexuality. And it's not that you know,
Speaker 1: sex is bad, it's not that there's not a place
Speaker 1: for that, but it's pretty clear that sex is a
Speaker 1: tool within the cult structure of Mormonism, just like with Islam. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to control their their population, gotcha.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the and biomis just jump in especially those are
Speaker 2: that is in addition to just like sort of mocking
Speaker 2: it and making fun of it, drawing out some of
Speaker 2: the parallels to the other false religions, I think people
Speaker 2: will find extremely interesting. Jay, you tell me when you
Speaker 2: want to stop any of this as well. But here, Folks,
Speaker 2: is the best cartoon on the Internet that I've ever seen.
Speaker 6: Regardless of its Christian veneer, the basic tenets of Mormonism
Speaker 6: are in direct conflict with Biblical Christianity. The following piece
Speaker 6: of animation, based directly on actual Mormon publications, highlights these
Speaker 6: major doctrinal differences.
Speaker 5: Mormonism teaches the trillions of planets scattered throughout the cosmos
Speaker 5: are ruled by countless gods who once were human like us.
Speaker 5: They say that long ago, on one of these planets,
Speaker 5: to an unidentified God and one of his goddess wives,
Speaker 5: a spirit child named Elohem was conceived. This spirit child
Speaker 5: was later born to human parents, who gave him a
Speaker 5: physical body. Obedience to Mormon teaching and death and resurrection,
Speaker 5: he proved himself worthy and was elevated to godhood as
Speaker 5: his father before him.
Speaker 2: Okay, just I have to stop it there, because even
Speaker 2: starting and saying all of these gods were once like you,
Speaker 2: they were human, and they became godly over time brings
Speaker 2: into question, well, who initiated the beings to start? Right?
Speaker 2: And so it's like like it obviously we'll see it's
Speaker 2: an endless regress of cosmic daddies.
Speaker 1: I don't think they thought that through. It's an infinite
Speaker 1: regress of cosmic daddies exactly.
Speaker 2: It's wild because you're like, oh, what do you mean,
Speaker 2: we became we became like God? So they pervert theosis
Speaker 2: and they make it some other thing.
Speaker 1: Well. No, Also, it's also it's a they call it
Speaker 1: eternal progression. So for them, it's an eternal cycle of
Speaker 1: evolving daddies. And to be wid Yeah, to be clear,
Speaker 1: that guy that right there, that that is God the Father.
Speaker 5: M hmm.
Speaker 1: So they think Elohem is God the Father who was
Speaker 1: a dude that just went full He looks like he
Speaker 1: man here right.
Speaker 2: So wait, so back in the day, there was obviously
Speaker 2: the capacity to distinguish the plurality of Llohem, right, So that.
Speaker 1: Was just just.
Speaker 2: Missed on purpose? Is that an ignorance thing?
Speaker 1: They would just probably say something like, we don't know.
Speaker 1: I listened to a couple of debates where this came
Speaker 1: up with Mormons and they just kind of say, well,
Speaker 1: we're not told that. That's we're not told that. We're
Speaker 1: not told by the way Mormons, a Muslim do the
Speaker 1: same thing, right, so when you get into some of
Speaker 1: the problems in the kronaba Alla and his attributes, they'll
Speaker 1: just say, we're not permitted to ask beyond that. Gotcha?
Speaker 5: Alrighty, Mormons believe that Eloheim is their heavenly father and
Speaker 5: that he lives with his many goddess wives on a
Speaker 5: planet near a mysterious star.
Speaker 1: Dude, he had there was not a single brunette amongst
Speaker 1: that harem, no redheads, no brunetts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, here, the God of Mormonism and his wives endless
Speaker 5: celestial sex.
Speaker 2: That's my favorite phrase in the whole card, endless celestial sex.
Speaker 2: Whoever made this critique is probably, honestly probably what a
Speaker 2: type of a Protestant that even made this cartoon?
Speaker 1: Don't you think I think Jeremiah Films is some kind
Speaker 1: of evangelical Yeah, yeah, but again that's a that's a
Speaker 1: Muslim thing too, right and less. Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2: The funniest like it's like a band. It's it's like
Speaker 2: a band name.
Speaker 5: Produced billions of spirit children spirit kipps to decide their destiny,
Speaker 5: the head of the spirit diapers and spirit poop.
Speaker 2: Spirit. Well, that's funny, is that all of this? Right,
Speaker 2: they're having these dinners and they're deciding yeah, so and
Speaker 2: then they're going to figure out a plan to then
Speaker 2: go to Earth, to Earth. But then they get their bodies.
Speaker 2: But right now they have their bodies and they're eating,
Speaker 2: and they're and they're drinking. It's like, okay, what's this.
Speaker 2: What is the spirit realm that precedes the material realm
Speaker 2: where they receive the body.
Speaker 1: Well, this is, by the way, just to make a
Speaker 1: quick note here, this is the condemned doctrine of the
Speaker 1: pre existence of souls, which is a neo Platonic Plato
Speaker 1: teaching that before we came into bodies, we had an
Speaker 1: ethereal you know, eternal formal existence with the monat or
Speaker 1: with here with elohems. So Joseph Smith is basically just
Speaker 1: copying and pasting from Plato Platonism, which is a big
Speaker 1: part of Freemasonry. By the way, the neoplatonic stuff is
Speaker 1: really essential to Albert Pike if you read Morals and Dogma.
Speaker 1: And this was a funny thing that I have to
Speaker 1: give Sam Schuman credit for mentioning this. He said, you know,
Speaker 1: if you think about it, this is kind of funny
Speaker 1: because when the spirit beings become humans, when they enter
Speaker 1: into the bodies. Yeah, alohem caused them to forget their
Speaker 1: prior existence, which is like, why would they have gone
Speaker 1: along with this plan to begin with. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: it's a stupid plan. It's like, hey, I'm gonna put
Speaker 1: you into bodies. It's gonna suck, but I'm gonna make
Speaker 1: you forget everything about your previous celestial existence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. It's like a black mirror, the
Speaker 2: new black mirror is coming out. But yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2: Shout out to Sam Shimun. So the consequence of all
Speaker 2: these views is eternality of all things. There's no distinction
Speaker 2: between a creator who's eternally uncreated and a creature a
Speaker 2: creature essentially, that's a massive distinction, at least in this
Speaker 2: cartoon that I've seen. Yeah, so that's the there's no
Speaker 2: distinctions ultimately between these things. So so what is there?
Speaker 1: Uncreated matter? And there's uncreated beings, many of them they
Speaker 1: evolve in it, create new infinite.
Speaker 2: Intellect, you said, right, the eternal intellec.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's all of their teaching, but
Speaker 1: at least one of the Mormon apologists was saying that
Speaker 1: that which is again a neoplatonic kind of idea of
Speaker 1: an eternal emanation from the one that's the ones intellect.
Speaker 1: So there's these eternal beings that go through these cycles.
Speaker 1: I like the infinite regress of cosmic daddies. But that's
Speaker 1: not the only reason. It's politistic. There's also eternal prima material.
Speaker 1: Prime matter is eternal. Mormonism officially rejects creation x nilo,
Speaker 1: which there's multiple Biblical texts, by the way, which teach
Speaker 1: x neila. Now, the reason that's interesting is that if
Speaker 1: you bring up Second maculb Be seven to twenty eight,
Speaker 1: Hebrews eleven, Colossians one, eighteen, Hebrews one, John one one
Speaker 1: to three, all of which teach creation x nilo, Mormons
Speaker 1: will say, oh, but yeah, but that's the Bible's wrong,
Speaker 1: that those are all corrupted.
Speaker 2: Just like the just like the Muslims.
Speaker 5: Yeah, all the Great Heavenly Council meeting. Both of Eloheim's
Speaker 5: eldest sons were there. Lucifer and his brother Jesus, bros.
Speaker 2: They're bros, Jay, They're bros. That anything.
Speaker 1: The Mormon Jesus there looks like I'm trying to figure
Speaker 1: out he looks like somebody on the Internet that we've
Speaker 1: interacted with. I don't know, it looks a little bit
Speaker 1: like Rooche.
Speaker 2: Maybe, I don't know, Yeah, Rous, like when he's uh yeah,
Speaker 2: when he did his final uh, that final video in
Speaker 2: the desert where he talked.
Speaker 1: To yeah Jesus.
Speaker 5: A plan was presented to build planet Earth, where the
Speaker 5: spirit children would be sent to take on mortal bodies
Speaker 5: and learn good from evil. Lucifer stood and made his
Speaker 5: bid or becoming savior of this new world. Wanting the
Speaker 5: glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods.
Speaker 5: Opposing the idea the Mormon Jesus.
Speaker 2: I like, oh, Jesus is just giggling at him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Mormon Jesus is hippie Jesus. Let him have.
Speaker 2: Real, force him the hacky sack you don't have, dad, he.
Speaker 5: Suggested, giving man his freedom of choice as on other planets.
Speaker 5: The vote that followed approved the proposal of the Mormon Jesus,
Speaker 5: who would become savior of the planet.
Speaker 2: I love the voting aspect of the cosmic eternal intellects
Speaker 2: at the table where they're like, well here, democracy right,
Speaker 2: democratic gods.
Speaker 5: Enraged, Lucifer cunningly convinced one third of the spirits destined
Speaker 5: for Earth to fight with him and revolt. Thus Lucifer
Speaker 5: became the devil, and his followers the demon sent to
Speaker 5: this word, they would forever be denied bodies of flesh
Speaker 5: and bone. Those who remained neutral in the battle were
Speaker 5: cursed to be born with black skin.
Speaker 1: Oh this is.
Speaker 2: Jamn, he said it. Oh my goodness. So let me
Speaker 2: get this straight. Is the one third thing politically derived?
Speaker 2: Like you know, oh, one third of them voted for Jesus.
Speaker 1: No, that's from scripture. Scripture says a third of the angels.
Speaker 2: Felt okay, okay, So that's where I'm wondering, because I
Speaker 2: was like, I was thinking of voting. I was like,
Speaker 2: what a third of the Okay, at least that at
Speaker 2: least they're they're pulling from something there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so the neutral what about that that added neutral?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 2: The neutral positions were just the blacks, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about that race element that the fallen
Speaker 1: spirits are born as black people. Okay, Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: doctor that the doctrine that they've obviously shot away from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, specifically the neutral it's it's a punishment for being
Speaker 2: neutral in this in this contr is the Mormon explanation
Speaker 2: for the Oh damn.
Speaker 5: You see that the Negro race, the spirits that fought
Speaker 5: most valiantly against Lucifer, would be born into Mormon families
Speaker 5: un planet Earth. These would be the lighter skinned people
Speaker 5: or white and delights them, as the Book of Mormon
Speaker 5: described it.
Speaker 2: I love that, did you guys? Do you guys notice
Speaker 2: that little smile? Yeah, that smile transition. I got to
Speaker 2: remember that for future and skinned people or white, And.
Speaker 1: That's the part. It is actually better to be a
Speaker 1: white and delightsome person like myself. So I can confirm
Speaker 1: that this is true right of Mormon.
Speaker 2: So they, yeah, yeah, I've had white privilege in their doctors, right.
Speaker 5: Early Mormon prophets taught that Elohem and one of his
Speaker 5: goddess wives came to as Adam and Eve to start
Speaker 5: the human race. Thousands of years later, Elohem and human
Speaker 5: form once again journey to Earth from the star based colomb,
Speaker 5: this time to have sex with the Oh.
Speaker 2: Just so you guys understand what's happening. Their account of
Speaker 2: Elohem is God the Father. He has a material body,
Speaker 2: and he actually, with all of his power, he actually
Speaker 2: took a cosmic.
Speaker 1: Uber to Earth from a star base. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've an approached approached the door to do
Speaker 2: his deed here he had to do this.
Speaker 5: Part Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus, oh damn,
Speaker 5: the physical body.
Speaker 2: All right, this is what's required.
Speaker 5: After Jesus Christ grew to manhood, he took at least
Speaker 5: three wives, Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1: You know. One that's interesting too, is how similar the
Speaker 1: SYS to Greek mythology. God father Eloheim is pretty much
Speaker 1: acting like Zeus does with the human women that he
Speaker 1: randomly just takes and has his way with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and every supposed really powerful god has another, a
Speaker 2: dad god that proceeds probably keep crafting it forever because
Speaker 2: they think it's you said, progression. It's regression too. At
Speaker 2: the same time, they have it in both directions through
Speaker 2: these wives.
Speaker 5: The Mormon Jesus, for whom Joseph Smith claimed direct descent,
Speaker 5: supposedly fathered a number of children before he was crucified,
Speaker 5: according to the book.
Speaker 2: Regelsa's Aryan Chosen Chosen Steens. That's funny Mormon.
Speaker 5: After his resurrection, Jesus came to the Americas to preach
Speaker 5: to the Indians, who the Mormons believe are really Israelized,
Speaker 5: thus the.
Speaker 1: Jesus mostly Worth noting here is that when Dan Brown's
Speaker 1: stuff came out, if you recall pushing the idea that
Speaker 1: Jesus had a wife or wives and children, that was
Speaker 1: all pushed as part of the you know, holy Blood,
Speaker 1: Holy Grail gnostic phenomenon in about two thousand and one
Speaker 1: two three, when Dan Brown was super popular, there were
Speaker 1: a prominent Mormons who were also supporting the thesis and
Speaker 1: putting out information as well, because they believe the same
Speaker 1: gnostic idea. It's an ancient gnostic heresy that Jesus also
Speaker 1: had wives.
Speaker 2: Right. Interesting, It's like this guy was like super. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't call him creative because he's just synthesizing a bunch
Speaker 2: of things.
Speaker 1: But very Yeah, it's a wild synthesis for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like a lonely boy scout in the woods.
Speaker 2: He's like just fantasizing about things. He's like super, He's
Speaker 2: just at a creative process.
Speaker 1: It's like a sci fi nerd in the eighteen hundreds
Speaker 1: out in the woods. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: Poemanism established his church in the Americas as he had.
Speaker 1: So wait are they whiter?
Speaker 2: So how do that. They're not even red like. So
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering, how do they only make and white
Speaker 2: and brown but they don't have these in betweens. They didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't think this.
Speaker 1: Through add in Palestine America?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know. Who are these people? Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: by the way, they believe Wait, they believe Eden is
Speaker 2: in New Jersey or was that Missouri is the Missouri?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 1: I think it is. There was a phase where they
Speaker 1: believe that the new Millennial Kingdom and Temple was going
Speaker 1: to be set up up there. Yeah hmhmm. And then
Speaker 1: that has partly to do with the split between them
Speaker 1: and Brigham Young.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I'm going for memory. I went at that long time.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Tartaria. Yeah, someone says that's what Tartaria is.
Speaker 3: That's funny.
Speaker 2: By the year, I think this is og rotoscoping, this animation.
Speaker 6: There are four hundred and.
Speaker 5: Twenty one AD the dark skinned Indian Israelites.
Speaker 2: There you go, Jay, he answered, it known.
Speaker 5: As leiman Nites had destroyed all of the white Nephites
Speaker 5: and a number of great Bats.
Speaker 1: Wait, Jay, have we.
Speaker 2: Ever seen these hardcore Mormons debating the hardcore black Israelites
Speaker 2: That would be kind of fun you should moderate a debate.
Speaker 3: Jay, Well, I.
Speaker 1: Didn't even think about that connection until the Mormon apologist
Speaker 1: Robert Gerr came on and I was saying, yeah. He
Speaker 1: was saying that, well, we're the Actually he says, I'm
Speaker 1: from the tribe of Nephi or whatever he said. He
Speaker 1: I don't know what he said, but I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: you're not. You're like the Black hero Iselites.
Speaker 2: Wasn't he the kind of leading cutting edge Mormon apologists
Speaker 2: too that you didn't even realize until laughter.
Speaker 1: He's a Mormon apologist. I don't honestly know who the
Speaker 1: leading one is. I think Trent Morn debated the leading one,
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure what that guy is. But one
Speaker 1: of the other ones, who is a leading Mormon apologist,
Speaker 1: did come on, and he had even worse arguments than
Speaker 1: Robert Kerr.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, adults.
Speaker 5: The Knee Fights records were supposedly written on golden plates
Speaker 5: and buried by Morona, the last living Nephite in the
Speaker 5: Hill Camora. Fourteen hundred years later, a young treasure seeker
Speaker 5: named Joseph Smith who was known for his tall tales.
Speaker 2: So he was known for his tall Now obviously we
Speaker 2: would you know, we agree with that, but that if
Speaker 2: that's well poisoning. I thought that was kind of cool
Speaker 2: that they threw that in. He's known for his tall tale.
Speaker 2: That means that there might be some evidence maybe you know,
Speaker 2: of where maybe there's some lost text that he wrote
Speaker 2: that just wasn't included in Mormonism. That was just as crazy.
Speaker 2: It just happened to be his Tuesday. You know, he
Speaker 2: wrote it down.
Speaker 1: He was like, idea, there used to be an old
Speaker 1: YouTube channel, believe it or not, that was devoted to
Speaker 1: old Mormon texts and they had a vast library and
Speaker 1: series of videos about the influence of ritual magic texts
Speaker 1: in Joseph Smith. But that channel is along gone. But
Speaker 1: that is you're correct, that is there.
Speaker 2: Awesome, We're at twenty five to fifty. I'm going to
Speaker 2: keep the goals going for you guys. You don't know.
Speaker 2: I will be splitting the super chats with Jay today
Speaker 2: for his time and efforts here, and also if you
Speaker 2: want to ask him a question directly, you can super
Speaker 2: chat and I'll read it to him as well. So
Speaker 2: there you got there.
Speaker 5: You go claim to have uncovered these same gold plates
Speaker 5: nearest home in Upstate New York.
Speaker 1: That's where I'm from.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean not technically, I mean I'm not like Buffalo,
Speaker 2: but I did know this part until this cartoon. By
Speaker 2: the way, that he found this stuff in upstate New York,
Speaker 2: where I want to know where he's like, where exactly.
Speaker 5: He is now honored by Mormons as a prophet because
Speaker 5: he claimed to have had visions from the spirit world
Speaker 5: in which he was commanded to organize the Mormon Church
Speaker 5: because all Christian creeds were an abomination. It was Joseph
Speaker 5: Smith who originated most of these peculiar doctrines which millions
Speaker 5: today believe to be true.
Speaker 2: And you read at least skimmed to some high detail
Speaker 2: through some of these jay for on our behalf, because
Speaker 2: we're not going to do it.
Speaker 1: I did years ago when I was actually supposed to
Speaker 1: debate Mitt Romney's Faith and Values guy. So there's a
Speaker 1: guy named Justin Hart who's a famous he used to apologetics.
Speaker 1: I don't think he does anymore, and he was going
Speaker 1: to be Mitt Romney's faith and values guy. And we
Speaker 1: organized the public debate we were going to do, and
Speaker 1: I spent two weeks studying those texts as well as
Speaker 1: there's a guy named Talmadge, who's their systematic theologian. They
Speaker 1: have the Actually I was systematic theologian and he backed
Speaker 1: out right at the end, so there never was a debate.
Speaker 2: Well that's too bad, was the a Is there ever
Speaker 2: a kind of reality in the past where even Jay
Speaker 2: Dyer at some age could have been drawn into Mormonism?
Speaker 1: Well, I will say that when I first started reading
Speaker 1: the Bible, when I was like eighteen or nineteen, I
Speaker 1: definitely was challenged both by Joe's Witnesses and Mormons and
Speaker 1: a lot of things I didn't know the answers to.
Speaker 1: So again, remember these kinds of groups and sects, they
Speaker 1: rely a lot on ignorance and uneducated people. And you'll notice,
Speaker 1: for example, like Joe's Witnesses, they do very well recruiting
Speaker 1: people in shall we say, poorer neighborhood goods and third
Speaker 1: world countries, just like Islam. So they thrive on that.
Speaker 1: And I would say that, Yeah, I remember the first
Speaker 1: time I ever got challenged by somebody. It was witness
Speaker 1: girl and she was trying to argue that Jesus isn't divine,
Speaker 1: there's no Trinity. I was new to reading the Bible,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to say to her, and
Speaker 1: so that actually kind of prompted me studying the Bible. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess there was a possibility that at
Speaker 1: one point I could have been duped to as anyone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look at that too. I look at how
Speaker 2: people recruit, even in Protestantism. You know, they had the
Speaker 2: Starbucks and the concerts, and they have all the modern amenities,
Speaker 2: and when you compare it to say Orthodoxy, it's never
Speaker 2: the amenities that's pulling. You know, you wouldn't want that
Speaker 2: to be the case anyway, but it's never those things
Speaker 2: that pull people in, and it just happens to be
Speaker 2: I would say, a little more snobbery, and necessarily so
Speaker 2: that people are actually thinking about the theology and its
Speaker 2: coherence as well as the practice. They're not thinking about
Speaker 2: whether or not there's going to be like an epic
Speaker 2: based solo at liturgy. And so it's kind of like
Speaker 2: it's been this thing on the internet, especially like I've
Speaker 2: heard people go, well, we got to get better at
Speaker 2: quote recruiting, but better recruiting the way it looks is
Speaker 2: appealing to these things. So it's kind of like this
Speaker 2: double edged sort of like well, you don't want to
Speaker 2: appeal to those things because that's not what you're selling, right.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, One thing I'd like to say that's really
Speaker 1: important here is that this illustrates the importance of logic
Speaker 1: and critical thinking, because people who think the debate's bad
Speaker 1: or that you shouldn't care about that, If you don't
Speaker 1: care about that, if you don't think that it's worthwhile,
Speaker 1: you don't have any way to delineate between our position
Speaker 1: is Orthodox and the Muslim and the Mormon, because the
Speaker 1: Muslim and the Mormon rely on very bad, low tier
Speaker 1: argumentation to convince many, many, many uneducated simple people, and
Speaker 1: so you have to have some degree of critical thinking
Speaker 1: and identifying the big errors and mistakes and fallacies in
Speaker 1: these systems that invalidate them, or else there's no appeal
Speaker 1: that you have that's any better than anyone else. If
Speaker 1: we shouldn't debate and we shouldn't utilize critical thinking, then
Speaker 1: what's going to stop people from saying, well, the Mormons
Speaker 1: are nice to me, They invite me to their stuff,
Speaker 1: they're friendly to me, they bring me over for dinner,
Speaker 1: they offer me, you know, pizza, Knights and Family Fund,
Speaker 1: Funk City, whatever they have and so this is why
Speaker 1: it's so important that you have to have this element
Speaker 1: and you can't rely on the feelies. And they literally do.
Speaker 1: They say you'll have the burning in your bosom. It's
Speaker 1: part of their doctrine is that when you pray and
Speaker 1: ask about the Book of Mormon, you'll feel this burning
Speaker 1: in your bosom and you'll know deep down by your
Speaker 1: feelies that it's right. Yeah, and it.
Speaker 2: Wasn't hot extra high talkies, right hot talkies. Well, like
Speaker 2: when I've critiqued George Jenko and everyone he pulls onto
Speaker 2: that show. It's very much feelings driven as well, which
Speaker 2: is why there's such a wide space for females to
Speaker 2: sit to sit in on those conversations. And that's very
Speaker 2: appealing and palpable and accessible to a certain generation of
Speaker 2: people who have like proclivities towards like I want to
Speaker 2: feel good, Like if if I don't feel good, how
Speaker 2: could it be God? How could I need to feel
Speaker 2: that thing? And and it's honestly, without debate about their uh,
Speaker 2: you know, their their theology as a whole, you can't.
Speaker 2: You don't want to combat good feelings and say, well
Speaker 2: we have a better feeling.
Speaker 1: That's not we can't do that.
Speaker 2: We can't say, well, our feelings are better than yours,
Speaker 2: we have actually more full feelings. You know, we're we're
Speaker 2: not even engaging in the same argument at that point.
Speaker 2: You know that we're our standard isn't the feelings at all,
Speaker 2: So you wouldn't We're not going to participate in that.
Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder.
Speaker 2: Jay sometimes when debate, when you know a debate an
Speaker 2: effort toward a debate is fruitful, or when you know
Speaker 2: it's a waste of time ultimately and you have to
Speaker 2: go out at the person at a different way, like
Speaker 2: from a different angle. I wondered at myself.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's actually a really good question,
Speaker 1: because I woke up actually thinking about this, Like, what
Speaker 1: what value is trying to even do debate in a
Speaker 1: in a society and a culture that is extremely I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say uneducated, but they're like hyper educated in very
Speaker 1: niche areas and they don't know basics about critical thinking
Speaker 1: or you know, anything like that. But I think it
Speaker 1: does ultimately help to, you know, to the portion of
Speaker 1: the population that is open to being corrected or open
Speaker 1: to the truth. Remember, a lot of these cults do
Speaker 1: not pull people in on the basis of philosophy, justification
Speaker 1: for their principles, you know, critical thinking. It's almost always recruiting,
Speaker 1: like all co leaders do, weak damaged people, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Think of till Swan, right, til Swan's
Speaker 1: whole thing with her cult is that she baptizes people
Speaker 1: into their trauma so that they can be resurrected out
Speaker 1: of their trauma through her. And when you listen to
Speaker 1: her talk to her people and her audience, they're all
Speaker 1: just obviously very damaged, psychologically weak people, and a narcissistic
Speaker 1: psychopath like Joseph Smith or Teal Swan can pray on that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, it's a lot I've even done in my
Speaker 2: twenties mid twenties, like a lot of self help stuff.
Speaker 2: It's structured exactly the same way they you know, they
Speaker 2: break you down psychologically. They do some sort of inverted
Speaker 2: perverse sort of confession style where you air all of
Speaker 2: your your your items, so to speak. And then once
Speaker 2: you're broken down fully, then through the work or whatever
Speaker 2: they're gonna call the thing, right, they're gonna say, now
Speaker 2: through this, you're you're gonna be essentially saved. They just
Speaker 2: have a different term for what saved is they would
Speaker 2: just say like revitalize, restore, transformed of something. They really
Speaker 2: just change the process and the practice of a church
Speaker 2: and the invert in really creative ways. But it's it's
Speaker 2: like to someone who's ignorant, it's subtle, so they won't
Speaker 2: really notice that. They'll just go this is good. I
Speaker 2: like it, I feel good, my relationships are good. Now.
Speaker 2: It's like it becomes a tool, well, a lot like
Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson still at this point, who knows I believe
Speaker 2: actually knows enough about the truth to make a choice,
Speaker 2: a willful choice, and still sort of reserves this sort
Speaker 2: of a Swiss army knife approach to Christianity where.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like the best.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, it's like I hope I meet
Speaker 2: him one day and I could, you know, push him,
Speaker 2: nudge him a little bit further, but.
Speaker 1: Who knows well, And it's like a guy was saying
Speaker 1: to me on Twitter today, He's like, well, you know
Speaker 1: Mormons this that, but you know they have the same
Speaker 1: basic Christian principles. No again, this is again, this is
Speaker 1: their pr The way that the Mormons do pr is
Speaker 1: to present themselves as one of amongst the many Christian denominations,
Speaker 1: and through sort of presumed the humanism, we can all
Speaker 1: kind of find commonalities. There's no commonalities in a system
Speaker 1: that's insane. Polytheistic bears no similarity whatsoever to what we
Speaker 1: as Orthodox Christians believe. Remember, cults thrive on word, concept, fallacies,
Speaker 1: and ambiguities. And so they will say to you, we
Speaker 1: believe in the three God, the Father, the Son, and
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit. We believe they have a kind of unity,
Speaker 1: and we believe that they are helpful and useful in
Speaker 1: our salvation. Right, and then when you ask them really
Speaker 1: what those things mean, I mean's nothing like what we
Speaker 1: would believe.
Speaker 2: Right, just use the word include everybody who assigned, who
Speaker 2: associates to that word, and go well, of course, like
Speaker 2: the same thing with Christ. I believe there's a guy
Speaker 2: my server, he said, I believe in the Christ. Anytime
Speaker 2: someone puts that the before, I'm like, you know, red flag.
Speaker 2: This is just like this ambiguous sort of consciousness that
Speaker 2: you close your eyes and try to engage with, and
Speaker 2: you just call it like the God Whisper or something
Speaker 2: like that, right exactly, And maybe that's answers further, Like
Speaker 2: I asked before, why is it Mormonism sort of sits
Speaker 2: just outside the sort of panel debate sphere. And I
Speaker 2: think what you're saying is what it is is that
Speaker 2: at least even Trinitarians who know what they mean by trinitarian,
Speaker 2: who who might have a bunch of things wrong, you
Speaker 2: could at least go, Okay, you're arguing for a trinitarian
Speaker 2: position and you're not totally inverting what it's meant by
Speaker 2: a trying God. Whereas the mortgage you are, like, we
Speaker 2: can't even include them in the in the debate, it's
Speaker 2: like it's like apples and oranges, Whereas it's like within
Speaker 2: orthodoxy debates with heterodoxy, it's like a it's like a
Speaker 2: ripe orange with like a slightly discolored, blemished orange. At
Speaker 2: least there you can call them similar things. Whereas Mormonism,
Speaker 2: as as we continue this cartoon, is is a wild approach.
Speaker 5: By maintaining a rigid code of financial and moral requirements,
Speaker 5: and through performing sacred temple rituals for themselves and the dead,
Speaker 5: the latter day saints hope to prove their worthiness and
Speaker 5: thus become gods.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, we need Europe because they didn't include this,
Speaker 2: but you probably know more than most about what what
Speaker 2: are these rituals?
Speaker 1: Jay, Well, this is an element that I think does
Speaker 1: perhaps in some way appeal to some people in the
Speaker 1: West who, through their low church Baptist, Congregationalists, Charismatic, Pentecostal,
Speaker 1: you know, Church of Christ, Bible belt tendencies, have a
Speaker 1: very low view of rituals and ritualism. And so because
Speaker 1: Mormonism does re interject a lot of this sort of
Speaker 1: temple ritual mysticism, ceremonies, things that are tossed out by
Speaker 1: a lot of the Radical Reformation tradition, that might be
Speaker 1: an element that appeals to people too who don't know
Speaker 1: anything about religion and are new to this, and they say, well,
Speaker 1: I look at the Old Testament, I see God has
Speaker 1: this temple and he's got these rituals, and I look
Speaker 1: at the Protestant churches and there's none of that. So
Speaker 1: my Mormon church has this priesthood and they actually believe
Speaker 1: in like an continued ironic Melchizedekian type priesthoods. They believe
Speaker 1: in these Apostolic successors, right, so they have this facsimile
Speaker 1: of early Judeo slash Christian principles. I'm not talking about
Speaker 1: Judeo Christianity. I know that that's not a thing. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, like, what the early Hebrew religious tradition had
Speaker 1: in terms of the temple and the synagogue, what the
Speaker 1: early Church had in terms of adopting that temple synagogue model.
Speaker 1: They're actually kind of hitting on something that's missing in
Speaker 1: a lot of the low Church stuff that may appeal
Speaker 1: to people. However, this is actually an admission in our
Speaker 1: favor that this never went away, the Apopolic succession, the altar,
Speaker 1: the Orthodox Christian temples, all of those things, the eucharistic sacrifice,
Speaker 1: the communion with those that have gone on, we pray
Speaker 1: for the dead. All that already exists in the Orthodox Church.
Speaker 2: So it's like they invert some of the truth, but
Speaker 2: do they add anything in ritualistically that's just.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm pretimasonic essentially. So a lot of these
Speaker 1: temple rituals are directly borrowed from Joseph Smith's time in freemasonry. Gotcha, Okay.
Speaker 5: The Mormons teach that everyone must stand at the final
Speaker 5: judgment before Joseph Smith, the Mormon Jesus and.
Speaker 1: Those Mormons.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, they don't have that the Mormon. I
Speaker 2: like how they just said the Mormon Jesus.
Speaker 1: But they apparently believe that the Holy Spirit will also
Speaker 1: eventually become flesh. So oh interesting, that's a Mormon. So
Speaker 1: everything that exists in spirit wants to be flesh so
Speaker 1: that they can become uh, you know, so they can
Speaker 1: get late. I guess, I guess.
Speaker 2: I mean that's what's weird, is like the desire for
Speaker 2: the eternal, eternally uncreated is become matter so that it
Speaker 2: could eventually transcend matter.
Speaker 1: Apparently they think that matter is just a more sublime
Speaker 1: version of spirit. Her spirit is matter, I should say,
Speaker 1: so they think that spirit is another kind of matter.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's probably underlying dualism there that there's
Speaker 1: some tension because if spirit is a more sublime form
Speaker 1: of matter, why would spirit want to become matter. I
Speaker 1: don't know, because it's all because of Coomb pods, it is,
Speaker 1: And I know people are looking for these really, you know,
Speaker 1: like that simple It's like, what's the metaphysical principles behind
Speaker 1: their view of uncreativity. It's just a sex goal, man,
Speaker 1: What are you thinking? It's just it's a sex goal man,
Speaker 1: it's not metaphysics. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes we give people too much charity. We're like, well,
Speaker 2: let's just yeah, exactly, well, let's look into the deep
Speaker 2: aspects of their you know. No, sometimes it's just.
Speaker 5: That the eternal marriage ceremony expect to become polygamous gods
Speaker 5: in the celestial Kingdom, rule over other planets, and spawn
Speaker 5: new families throughout eternity. The Mormons thank God for Joseph Smith,
Speaker 5: who claimed that he had done more for us than
Speaker 5: any other man, including Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't actually know that. I didn't know they
Speaker 2: went that far more, including Jesus Christ. But then they're like, wait, wait,
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, from your view, was there before the Well, no,
Speaker 2: he must have been a man. This is so confusing, dude.
Speaker 2: If they think that the gods were once men, but
Speaker 2: then the celestial gods made spirit babies who then became men.
Speaker 2: Were those spirit babies once men also before they become spirit?
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if they were all gods? I'm
Speaker 1: not sure.
Speaker 5: Wow. The Mormons believed that he died as a martin,
Speaker 5: shed his blood for us so that we too may
Speaker 5: become gods.
Speaker 6: Although there are thousands of Mormon churches throughout the world.
Speaker 6: There are only a few dozen Mormon temples. These men
Speaker 6: ass of structures play a vital role in the Mormons
Speaker 6: quest for Godhood. Mormons must engage in a series of
Speaker 6: occultic rituals inside the temple in order to.
Speaker 2: Be I have to I'll read.
Speaker 1: Notice that the temple literally copy paste Masonic symbols.
Speaker 2: Right right, All their symbols are the same. Look, yep, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's just I mean, he could have he could have
Speaker 2: designed a little differently, like you can you can steal
Speaker 2: someone's song and the chords, but at least change the lyrics.
Speaker 2: He's not even changing much of the lyrics at all.
Speaker 2: Justin Nley says, I have I'll read all of these
Speaker 2: at the end, but I just thought this was funny.
Speaker 2: Justin says, for five dollars, it's not a sex cult.
Speaker 2: J soaking is not sex j Okay soaking. That's where
Speaker 2: they move the bed around, Jay so that they so
Speaker 2: you're not actually doing it right, premarital sex. This is
Speaker 2: a thing Jay, they to avoid premarital sex. They basically
Speaker 2: it's very Jewish by the way, like it's like where
Speaker 2: not working. I'm not exerting energy. They the people lay
Speaker 2: on top of each other, right, do the mechanics of sex,
Speaker 2: but they don't move. They friends shake the bed for them,
Speaker 2: and so they're it's not considered doing the work.
Speaker 1: So that's very that's like you know workaround right, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think people should keep in mind that
Speaker 1: there is this sort of probably cabalistic element in the
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith ideology from Masonry and from Neoplatonism. And I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised given this claim of being the you
Speaker 1: know lost tribes of Israel.
Speaker 2: What just reading account zones that no thrusting, no lusting, right.
Speaker 1: Go on, No, I mean it's it's it's not surprising
Speaker 1: to me given the elements of the Talmudick solomonic ideology
Speaker 1: here that there's also some of the legalistic workarounds going
Speaker 1: on here. Yeah, cults. Remember also, this is a principle
Speaker 1: a lot of people forget about cults, is that even
Speaker 1: Bible belt you know, fake you know Bible from for
Speaker 1: religion people, they usually replace actual teachings about virtue and
Speaker 1: vice that we have in the church. They usually replace
Speaker 1: it with some weird legalism. Right, So Christianity becomes not
Speaker 1: drinking enough smoking cigarettes like in the Bible belt, the
Speaker 1: Holy Rollers in the Bible belt, right, So you're not
Speaker 1: actually learning to tink commandments and cultivating the virtues and
Speaker 1: trying to you know, stamp out the vices. You're engaging
Speaker 1: in this pharasical sort of legalism about things that are
Speaker 1: external and not the changing of the internal man. It's
Speaker 1: just these stupid external legalities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, what didn't one of the Rockefellers. I
Speaker 2: think one of the I think one of those guys
Speaker 2: developed the sort of like dildonics or something where you
Speaker 2: connect things to your computer where you're like, it's not
Speaker 2: really I'm not doing anything here. It's the computer doing
Speaker 2: all the work. It's the machine doing all the work.
Speaker 2: That's such a good point. Where you're not healing the soul.
Speaker 2: You're not you're not working on internally the healing spiritually.
Speaker 2: You're fixing external problems and reorganizing matter so that it
Speaker 2: doesn't look like you're doing the bad thing. It's just
Speaker 2: a different way of doing it. It's almost like if it's.
Speaker 1: Like the Pharisees, you clean the externals, you washed the
Speaker 1: pots and the externals the inside you're full of dead men's.
Speaker 2: Bones and yeah, yeah, it's uh. You see it ever,
Speaker 2: you see it in a lot of places.
Speaker 6: Become a candidate for godhood, only an elite selection of
Speaker 6: devout Mormons are allowed to enter. To do so, the
Speaker 6: potential Mormon God must adhere to a strict code of ethics,
Speaker 6: including abstinence from tobacco, caffeine based products, and paying a
Speaker 6: full time to the Mormon Church and wearing of the
Speaker 6: magic Mormon underwear twenty got him.
Speaker 2: On right now four hours a day.
Speaker 4: He has to receive a satisfactory interview from his bishop
Speaker 4: and from his state president. There he's asked or she
Speaker 4: has asked certain rather penetrating questions about their worthiness or morality.
Speaker 4: If he's a full tithe payer, that is the only
Speaker 4: way that we can be with our heavenly Father, Otherwise
Speaker 4: we could not be in his presence.
Speaker 6: The motivation for the Mormon male to commit to such
Speaker 6: requirements is the promise of endless celestial sex with thousands
Speaker 6: of goddess wives, along with a personal planet to rule
Speaker 6: and reign over. However, Mormon males who failed.
Speaker 1: With thousands of goddess wives. If you read the Greek
Speaker 1: mythology about the goddesses. Yeah, Like, if you're worried about
Speaker 1: putting up with polygamy and four or five wives, could
Speaker 1: you imagine the power in the insanity of thousands of
Speaker 1: chaotic goddess wives like Aphrodite and Hera. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: By the way, these images you can these are available
Speaker 2: for n f.
Speaker 6: T over thousands goddess wives, along with a personal planet
Speaker 6: to rule and reign over. However, Mormon males.
Speaker 1: Who anti ant bear pigs and that's a lot of
Speaker 1: fail necessary.
Speaker 2: That's my favorite one right there. That's a really good one.
Speaker 1: Because have you do you remember enders game? M hm,
Speaker 1: that's another Mormon written story too, because you have these
Speaker 1: universe there's like a Mormon planet, a Catholic planet, and
Speaker 1: a Protestant planet, and.
Speaker 2: They're all fighting each other, and does the Mormon one win?
Speaker 2: I forget the results.
Speaker 1: I'd only read the first one in game. I don't
Speaker 1: remember the other one. I read the other ones.
Speaker 6: The sary requirements risk being castrated upon their entrance.
Speaker 2: To heaven, so you can I didn't know that parts
Speaker 2: get your bill cut your cosmic junk off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, oh.
Speaker 4: Man, See why the temple is so important to the
Speaker 4: Latter day saint, because if he is worthy to go
Speaker 4: on to the Temple and there receive the sacred ordinances
Speaker 4: and covenants and keep them, he can eventually grow into
Speaker 4: becoming a God himself.
Speaker 2: Tell me who God the Father is to you?
Speaker 1: He is like you and I every human being on
Speaker 1: the face of the earth.
Speaker 7: Oh is he a man?
Speaker 1: Yes? He is?
Speaker 8: How did he get to be God?
Speaker 1: That's like, that's a great moment right there. One thing
Speaker 1: I would add to is that remember that their conception,
Speaker 1: which they actually try to appeal to Orthodox people all
Speaker 1: the time, when they hear us talking about deification of diosis,
Speaker 1: they think that it's the same type of idea. And
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're going for is a ritual
Speaker 1: magic approach to apotheosis where you literally become God the
Speaker 1: Father on another planet with celestial wives. That is not
Speaker 1: the Orthodox teaching of theosis or becoming like God by
Speaker 1: participation on created grace. So remember, Mormons believe in this
Speaker 1: very externalist, works based salvation where they're attaining the merits
Speaker 1: to become some sort of apotheosized human God. It is
Speaker 1: not the Orthodox doctrine of participating in immortality and grace
Speaker 1: as an energy to become like.
Speaker 2: God, right, and that other distinction of like if if God,
Speaker 2: God has a nature and the nature of God is eternal,
Speaker 2: if you become God, but you're already eternal, You've already
Speaker 2: obtained a type of God nature anyway, So they would
Speaker 2: have to have this subcategory.
Speaker 1: It's like a spectrum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, spectrum. Yeah, it's a spectrum of God. But
Speaker 2: they couldn't tell you what it was, right.
Speaker 1: The Asperger spectrum of godhood where you're like, I'm like
Speaker 1: an eighty seven God. I cannot wait to be ninety
Speaker 1: percent God in five years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so bizarre.
Speaker 1: You're like, well, how is the This is a classic
Speaker 1: metaphysical problem for any kind of polytheistic type position. It's like,
Speaker 1: how do you split up an apportion godhood? Right? I mean,
Speaker 1: if the divine nature is non participable and simple and
Speaker 1: as we believe, is orthodox and one, then there's no
Speaker 1: fifty percent divine nature, there's no eighty six percent divine nature.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have parts to it.
Speaker 2: Right, right, doesn't. Yeah, so they would they're basically have
Speaker 2: to appeal to splitting God up into particulars and choosing
Speaker 2: which particulars we they believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, God Father God, the Father Elohem, Jesus and the
Speaker 1: Spirit are literally three discrete, distinct, different, separate gods.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they don't solve they don't solve this problem
Speaker 2: of the you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you mentioned the trinity, they'll say, well,
Speaker 1: we believe in a kind of a version of that.
Speaker 1: But they're just one in that in that they have divinity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's no different than like Zeus and you know,
Speaker 1: Athena or whatever.
Speaker 2: Do they have a view that you have to died
Speaker 2: then as human to become like the human father, who's
Speaker 2: also has a body.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I'm not sure he has the best.
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta listen. Listen to this every human
Speaker 1: being on the face of the earth.
Speaker 2: Oh is he a man?
Speaker 1: How did he get to be gone?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, I should blow a bubble with
Speaker 2: my gum right now.
Speaker 1: He's perfect.
Speaker 2: He's perfect, and every just regurgitate, right. So that's a
Speaker 2: killer Wow. Whoever the chick was who asked that, that's
Speaker 2: that's a killer question right there, because if you can't
Speaker 2: answer that question, I mean, that's pretty much the the
Speaker 2: defeater to the whole view. In addition to everything else.
Speaker 1: That's well Smith adding himself to Genesis fifty to predict himself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, that's uh, that was one. Now
Speaker 2: you sent me two others. There's a there is a
Speaker 2: call up Colobe and the Earth, which we'll uh examine here.
Speaker 2: But let's let's look through some super chats first. So
Speaker 2: we caught up and we'll move on. Justin Henley two dollars?
Speaker 1: Are you obs? Using obs?
Speaker 2: Using obs only as a oh, you're asking me for
Speaker 2: I got to figure out Justph maximum five dollars JB
Speaker 2: and Dyer by Fire Dyer. Thank you so much for that,
Speaker 2: Sean says, Smith translated and dated the Book of Abraham.
Speaker 2: Quote it was actually the Book of the Dead, a
Speaker 2: pagan text with horse.
Speaker 1: You want to well, this one is new to me
Speaker 1: that somebody pointed out the other day that one of
Speaker 1: their one of their references, this so called Book of Abraham,
Speaker 1: is just another copy and paste job that he sort
Speaker 1: of ripped. So there seems to be a lot of
Speaker 1: copy and pasting going on with Joseph Smith. Yeah, Jube
Speaker 1: says for five dollars.
Speaker 2: Since Mormonism is a hodgepodge of ancient heresies, do you
Speaker 2: think we could say that they have the most heresy
Speaker 2: arch succession.
Speaker 1: Well, I would say no, just because you can find
Speaker 1: you know, the Assyrian Church of the East, or you know,
Speaker 1: people who are continued in historians who have Apostolic succession
Speaker 1: quote unquote, So I would say that's more of a
Speaker 1: heresyarch succession. Mormonism is just more like a uh it's
Speaker 1: it's like a polytheistic pagan system with a Christian veneer.
Speaker 1: And so I wouldn't even say it's even Christian. It's
Speaker 1: just it's just a week just it's a sci fi
Speaker 1: Greek polytheistic scam. I don't know what else to call it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's bizarre. That's why it's.
Speaker 1: At least in Islam you have like centuries of Muslims
Speaker 1: doing debates and being interested in logic.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, I mean, I think Islam is
Speaker 2: is a you know, pretty.
Speaker 1: Goofy It's got a lots to it, had deaths, but
Speaker 1: you've at least had you know, Arabist Islamic philosophers and
Speaker 1: theologians and logicians, and at least Islam is not as
Speaker 1: wild as this is. This is just wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like the liberties that Joseph Smith took.
Speaker 2: He could have just not appealed to the Bible at
Speaker 2: all and just made up an entirely new completely which
Speaker 2: is it's close.
Speaker 1: To well, but remember think about the eighteen hundreds. If
Speaker 1: you want to draw away people from you know, uneducated
Speaker 1: idiot people from Baptists and Presbyterian churches and and Congregational churches,
Speaker 1: you need to utilize the King James because that's what
Speaker 1: they were using. By the way, write the Book of
Speaker 1: Mormon in King James, which is funny. Yeah, why would
Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon be translated into you know, King
Speaker 1: James in the in the eighteen hundreds. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's it's it's wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is ortho Joe nineteen ninety nine just want
Speaker 2: to tell you and Jay that you guys are the
Speaker 2: best and funniest debaters on the internet right now. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for that. I appreciate that. Joe deut
Speaker 2: Joel for ninety nine says, cheers, Jay and Jim Bob.
Speaker 2: What are your takes on prophetic YouTube channels? Kingdom marriage
Speaker 2: prophecies and YouTube are uploaded daily, div Rev. I don't
Speaker 2: follow much. You cover some of these well.
Speaker 1: I just did a video where we outlined. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: clip it because I think I made it a members talk,
Speaker 1: but I spent about ten to fifteen minutes in the
Speaker 1: Megachurch Madness Part two, I covered the finality of divine
Speaker 1: revelation and when we when we understand those passages in
Speaker 1: those texts, this cuts off any cult. So, whether it's Mormons,
Speaker 1: or whether it's Charismatics, whether it's Muslims, any cult premised
Speaker 1: on new revelations that supersede or correct or change or
Speaker 1: reject the previous are immediately disqualified.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because, in other words, the faith being revealed and
Speaker 2: it becoming a part of the reality, hard reality.
Speaker 1: That is, once we're all delivered. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's nothing new to there's nothing new to
Speaker 2: do or to figure out. But all of these people
Speaker 2: in these channels are doing all of this work and
Speaker 2: trying to figure out the decoding. Right, it's like a
Speaker 2: massive it's nosis. And if you really.
Speaker 1: Anybody from anybody from the outset claiming to speak from
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit and predict the future or any of
Speaker 1: that is immediately disqualified as a fraud. Yeah. There are
Speaker 1: no more prophets like the Old Testament prophets, and that
Speaker 1: actually is relevant to Mormonism, because when Jesus says that
Speaker 1: in Luke sixteen sixteen, he says the law and the
Speaker 1: prophets were until John. Since that time, the Kingdom is
Speaker 1: preached and people are pressing into it. So the Kingdom
Speaker 1: of God is what the prophets were looking forward to.
Speaker 1: When the Messiah comes, the kingdom is here. It's the Church.
Speaker 1: He identifies the church as the kingdom in Matthew sixteen.
Speaker 1: So the idea that there would be this ongoing office
Speaker 1: of an Old Testament prophet is automatically excluded. And in fact,
Speaker 1: we know that Joseph Smith understood that because he changed
Speaker 1: Luke sixteen sixteen to not say that. It's reads totally
Speaker 1: different because he needs to be a continuation of an
Speaker 1: Old Testament prophet, just like Muhammad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what would be the difference with someone Let's
Speaker 2: say they have like a YouTube thing and they and
Speaker 2: they start sort of looking at reality and trying to
Speaker 2: measure it against scripture, and they make they're not making predictions,
Speaker 2: but they're maybe making making an analysis of let's say
Speaker 2: end times in general, just end times, you know, closer
Speaker 2: to the end of humanity or whatever. It's true that
Speaker 2: even in a let's say an Orthodox priest could do
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Right, they're not making new predictions,
Speaker 2: but they're doing like some sort of general analysis of
Speaker 2: where we are right now. But there, but the difference
Speaker 2: would be correct me if I'm wrong. They wouldn't make
Speaker 2: declarative statements of fact about where we are.
Speaker 1: So if an elder or someone has clairvoyance or they
Speaker 1: see something that's coming, it's not on the same level
Speaker 1: as public divine revelation. And we know that because well,
Speaker 1: first of all, the faith was once for all delivered
Speaker 1: to the Saints when John the Apostle died. There's no
Speaker 1: more public divine revelations. It's done, it ceased. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's why even at the end of the Book of Revelation,
Speaker 1: providentially it says you can't add to this text. There's
Speaker 1: no new public revelations. So when you get acumenical councils,
Speaker 1: for example, they're not adding new divine revelations. They're explicating
Speaker 1: what was already there, this body of teaching, this fixed
Speaker 1: body of doctrines that the Apostles hand down, which is
Speaker 1: the absolute faith what Jude says was once for all delivered,
Speaker 1: So it can't be altered. It doesn't get new updates,
Speaker 1: it doesn't get new downloads, it doesn't get there's no
Speaker 1: new prophetic voices, because we know that was already condemned
Speaker 1: in the second century, because there was a guy named
Speaker 1: Montanus who was the charismatic of the second century, and
Speaker 1: he said, I'm the voice of the Holy Spirit. I
Speaker 1: have new revelations like in the Book of Acts, which
Speaker 1: will now guide the church as a kind of direct
Speaker 1: prophetic guidance. And Montanus was immediately condemned. In fact, it's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that Turtolian is not a saint
Speaker 1: is that he left the church to become a montonist,
Speaker 1: and so this is a you know, famous reason why
Speaker 1: he's just a patristic writer and not a saint. He
Speaker 1: became a heretic and schismatic, unfortunately. But the conbination of
Speaker 1: Montanism shows that first second, third century Church had already
Speaker 1: rejected this idea of ongoing public divine revelation, and thus
Speaker 1: this immediately cuts out anything to do with cults. But
Speaker 1: that's different than somebody like, you know, if you go
Speaker 1: meet your confessor, or you go meet some elder on
Speaker 1: Mount Athos and they have a sense about you, and
Speaker 1: they know you know something clairvoyant about you. That's something
Speaker 1: between you and him. It's a spiritual gift. It's not
Speaker 1: something that like the church says, oh we got a.
Speaker 2: New epistle to add to the New Testament, right yeah,
Speaker 2: totally yeah, yeah, So it sounds like there's some key distinctions.
Speaker 2: There's explication versus some having an epiphany which could be
Speaker 2: right or wrong, versus some type of clairvoyance, which would
Speaker 2: be one to one that that scale, versus someone claiming
Speaker 2: revelation itself.
Speaker 1: You can have a public divine revelation, right with the
Speaker 1: depth of John the Apostle. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So some people try to maybe falsely explicate something
Speaker 2: and then they maybe try to transform it into some
Speaker 2: sort of public revelation or prophecy, and they just go
Speaker 2: run with it, as opposed to someone who's just just
Speaker 2: looking at it and going, oh no, we're just we're
Speaker 2: deciding what this means here. We're not declaring the entailment
Speaker 2: of the future here with some sort of prediction. And
Speaker 2: it's those predictors that you watch out for, right, like
Speaker 2: whether they're the Jamatria Tards or or these people. Douy Joel,
Speaker 2: thank you for your Super.
Speaker 1: Bowl, even an Orthodox Monaska if they claim to have
Speaker 1: visions like we already have the rule laid down Douai thirteen,
Speaker 1: Dourami eighteen Galatians one. It's not that like you don't
Speaker 1: get to It's not like a you know, nine out
Speaker 1: of ten, like you got to get.
Speaker 2: Them all right.
Speaker 1: It like if you don't get one of them right,
Speaker 1: you're disqualified. Gotcha. That's the rule according to scripture for
Speaker 1: a quote prophet. And even if a saint or an
Speaker 1: elder somebody to predict something accurately about the future, it's
Speaker 1: still not public divine revelation. Mmm, gotcha, anymore than any
Speaker 1: more than you would listen to any other person in
Speaker 1: the church, a priests or whoever who's talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: his opinion of the end times. It's not equivalent to
Speaker 1: divine revelation. That's interesting.
Speaker 2: It actually brings up like how in a future perhaps
Speaker 2: where enough data input can increase the level of predicted predictability,
Speaker 2: for in so far as certain things are concerned, if
Speaker 2: people are going to appeal to AI's ability to predict
Speaker 2: to some more vast extent, and they'll they'll try to
Speaker 2: present it more like through a theological view. I feel
Speaker 2: like that might be inevitable to some extent where they
Speaker 2: take the AI the new King Solomon, if you will,
Speaker 2: that knows all, it's given, all the wisdom, that's given
Speaker 2: every all the information, and it spits out these sort
Speaker 2: of predictive models that end up being predictive enough for
Speaker 2: ordinary humans who don't have a theological basis to adopt
Speaker 2: it as the new one because it's like it's so smart, right.
Speaker 1: Well, in Zardas, that's how the AI computers work. They
Speaker 1: have a predictive future models and that's what they do.
Speaker 1: So absolutely, yeah, I think it would fall for.
Speaker 2: That for sure, but that would like lend itself to
Speaker 2: some sort of more of a determinist view of humans,
Speaker 2: which that would be a We're already in the horror
Speaker 2: of people believing strict materialists Germanism.
Speaker 1: I mean, just well, look at what Paul says, which
Speaker 1: is very applicable to Mormonism, right. Paul says, even if
Speaker 1: an angel from heaven comes and preaches a different teaching
Speaker 1: from what I've laid down in my apostolic writings and
Speaker 1: oral teachings, you don't listen to them even if they appear,
Speaker 1: which is almost perfectly aligns with Mohammed and Joseph Smith
Speaker 1: because they both claim an angel visitor came and told
Speaker 1: them this new revelation. Right, and yet Paul is saying,
Speaker 1: even if you have an angelic visitation, you don't listen
Speaker 1: to it if it deviates from what I have handed
Speaker 1: down to you. So if Galatians one is true, there
Speaker 1: cannot be new, additional corrective revelations down the road. Got you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's pretty strict. It's pretty constrained. Montana Moser
Speaker 2: five dollars. I went to the Mormon church and nothing
Speaker 2: was said about the Book of Mormon. I don't even
Speaker 2: remember seeing any there, like any of the actual.
Speaker 1: Well, this is the technique that Colts do, just like
Speaker 1: even Islam does this, right. They preach it publicly as
Speaker 1: a very simple message. Right. The last we had with
Speaker 1: Daniel Haikikachu, he was saying, look how simple Islam is,
Speaker 1: basic principles. God's just won It's simple. The simplicity is
Speaker 1: what God would want for a religion for all peoples.
Speaker 1: It's simple. And then once you're involved in it. Oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, you also got to believe all these
Speaker 1: crazy hadiths. Mormonism does the same thing. They're not going
Speaker 1: to tell you the crazy stuff when they meet you
Speaker 1: on the street. M they're wait until you're roped in,
Speaker 1: invested in it sunk and cost fallacy. Now you got
Speaker 1: to believe all the crazy stuff, right right? Scientology same way. Similar, Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Have to actually work your way up. That's it's actually,
Speaker 2: it's actually it seems to be that you you not
Speaker 2: only are exposed to the wacky stuff later, but the
Speaker 2: way it structures is that is that you actually earned
Speaker 2: the wacky stuff. So you're actually invested in the wacky stuff, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just like scientology, you're also paying a significant
Speaker 1: amount of money to get to that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're invested so it won't occur wacky. I mean,
Speaker 2: anything you you pay for, you're already setting yourself up
Speaker 2: for a bias toward the thing you're paying for. It
Speaker 2: happens all the time when we buy crappy items, we
Speaker 2: try to convince ourselves, well, maybe it's not that, Maybe
Speaker 2: it's exactly I got it from Instagram. It looked cool.
Speaker 1: Crash Man five.
Speaker 2: I remember hearing that Mormonism used to teach that non
Speaker 2: white people are the children of sin. Yeah, we included
Speaker 2: that in the h in the cartoon there, and that
Speaker 2: is why they are not white. Now, Jay I was
Speaker 2: asking early on, are there now new iterations of Mormonism
Speaker 2: who are trying to move away from these kind of
Speaker 2: crazy these kind of more crazy takes we saw in
Speaker 2: the cartoon.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the main line Mormon LDS people
Speaker 1: are becoming more left, more woke, more rebranded against that stuff.
Speaker 1: But as far as I know, it's all still there.
Speaker 1: But there are Mormon splits and sects, right.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: The fundamentalist Latter Day Saints with that crazy, very fed
Speaker 1: looking dude. What was that guy's name, Jeff Jeffers, Jeffries.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm talking about. The cult he created,
Speaker 1: his compound, the guy that did all the what was
Speaker 1: a Jim Cavizel human trafficking movie, Sounded Freedom that was
Speaker 1: done by a split off Mormon sectarian guy. Hm, that's he.
Speaker 1: It's based on him. Interesting the character, right, So uh,
Speaker 1: they believe in his group in like new prophetic revelations
Speaker 1: that like fix the mainline Mormon problems. So you see
Speaker 1: how this is like a never ending infinite regress of
Speaker 1: new profits that can correct the mistakes of yesteryear's profits.
Speaker 2: That makes me wondrous inside Mormonism. Is it even possible
Speaker 2: for a new profit that they wholly appealed to, that's
Speaker 2: that supersedes Joseph Smith to a higher extent. What would
Speaker 2: that What would be required for that to happen?
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I mean it would it would
Speaker 1: be like the papacy having a pope, you know, basically
Speaker 1: saying Frank was a heretic by the way he's out
Speaker 1: mm hmm. I mean it would immediately cause a pretty
Speaker 1: significant contradictory tension. I don't know, I don't know how
Speaker 1: they can. I mean, it seems logical if you can
Speaker 1: have a new profit that corrects the previous ones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it happens. It like it immediately would invalidate all that
Speaker 1: came before.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's split. It It would cause like whatever
Speaker 2: you would call a schism and Mormonism and.
Speaker 1: Some warn jet that's the guy that had his compound
Speaker 1: and he had like, I don't know, forty Prairie muffin wives.
Speaker 1: Just do you remember him?
Speaker 2: I remember that name.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's a Mormon split. That's like traditional holding
Speaker 1: to all the previous Mormon teaching. But to me, that
Speaker 1: looked like a mind control fed operation.
Speaker 2: It's also harder probably to do what Joseph Smith did
Speaker 2: then now with all the tech and cross referencing capabilities,
Speaker 2: even though people are just as dumb. I think, like
Speaker 2: you said, why does this stuff work? Because people start,
Speaker 2: instead of broadly looking at a worldview and obtaining information
Speaker 2: and cross referencing in a in a holistic way, they
Speaker 2: they isolate myopic things and they focus in on these
Speaker 2: like these like very specialized views of things, so they
Speaker 2: don't have like, they don't have the capacity, so they
Speaker 2: fall into wacky positions. But if someone came along and
Speaker 2: took another position like Joseph Smith and started saying things,
Speaker 2: it just seems that whatever is said, it's gonna be
Speaker 2: harder for people to believe it, just like wholesale because
Speaker 2: of the ability to like at least question it a
Speaker 2: little bit more with with access to information and stuff,
Speaker 2: but they didn't have as much of that, I suppose,
Speaker 2: Jason Castle, thank you so much, Tim Buck says Jimbob
Speaker 2: and Jay, how dare you attack the man the myth
Speaker 2: Joseph Smithy. Joseph Smithy, he is our special boy. I
Speaker 2: seen the Golden tablets. They are pretty Yeah, been five dollars.
Speaker 2: I really want to hear Jabe talk about Jehovah witnesses.
Speaker 2: Sometime dated a girl who broke out of it and
Speaker 2: she told me in seeing things they did. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: sure Jay, you covered that probably multiple times as well well.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are similar similarities, but they're more of
Speaker 1: a just more of an anti Trinitarian focused sect. That is,
Speaker 1: actually it's polytheistic as well, because they think Jesus is
Speaker 1: a god, which is polytheism. But Charles tays Russell was
Speaker 1: also influenced by masonry. He was interested in Enochian magic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there was an occult element there with him, as
Speaker 1: well as Joseph Smith. But I think more interesting than
Speaker 1: that is the multiple times that Joe's witnesses have predicted
Speaker 1: in the world I've been wrong. So remember, if you
Speaker 1: fail in your predictions, you're a false prophet. That's on me.
Speaker 1: Thirteen did around me eighteen Glatians one make it very
Speaker 1: clear you don't get to like get second chances right
Speaker 1: with prophetic predictions and claims. And then one of the
Speaker 1: times that they predicted it, that guy named Judge, Judge,
Speaker 1: whatever his name is, always forget his name, but he
Speaker 1: took all their money and built himself like multimillion dollar
Speaker 1: San Diego estate. So it's called Beth Saram. It's still there.
Speaker 2: Interesting, he still operates a thing and he just you know,
Speaker 2: he's long dead.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying the house is still there if you
Speaker 1: look at best there.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Interesting, and it's not like super super fancy, but I
Speaker 1: mean it was enough that like he said, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: building this a state because when David and Moses come
Speaker 1: like they needed a nice place to say.
Speaker 2: M right, makes sense. Yeah, uh seems legit. Where do
Speaker 2: I sign up? That's funny, Keenan tain't nothing for ninety nine.
Speaker 2: This is basically the same thing as he man. Well,
Speaker 2: it's the same animation they got. The same man made her.
Speaker 1: Apparently, which Judge Rutherford, excuse me, he built in nineteen
Speaker 1: twenty nine, this Beth Saram estate for Abraham and the
Speaker 1: other resurrected patriarchs to live in the end of the world.
Speaker 1: What's that? So? I mean that right there should cancel up.
Speaker 2: I wonder is there a famous person who bought it up?
Speaker 1: Bought it up the estate. I think it's just owned
Speaker 1: by like a normal San Diego Now, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you look at it now. It's not like I mean
Speaker 1: that house, that house in San Diego is probably five
Speaker 1: million dollars, ten million dollars. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nice house.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that was pretty fancy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean worthy of of of the What did
Speaker 2: you say, who was going to visit and occupy?
Speaker 1: He says. In nineteen eighteen, Watchtower publications began to predict
Speaker 1: the end of the world. Judge Rutherford, he's kind of
Speaker 1: the successor after Charles J's. Russell said that these Old
Speaker 1: Testament princes would be resurrected in nineteen twenty five and
Speaker 1: come back to live. They needed someplace to live. This
Speaker 1: included Moses, David Abraham and then when uh they didn't
Speaker 1: come back, he lived there and then I think they
Speaker 1: eventually just sold it to somebody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was assuming they were super materialistic. They
Speaker 2: wanted like the chikoozies and you know, all the nice things.
Speaker 2: Ben Fortnite, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, you're gonna put you can't put up plant stuff
Speaker 1: on a holiday in dude, Come on, that's true.
Speaker 2: Blonds are overrated. If I wanted the data, super saying,
Speaker 2: I would thank you so much. Ben Montana again with
Speaker 2: the five dollars.
Speaker 1: Here's a bit more dough. Thanks for this, you guys.
Speaker 2: I was super zoomer kuomer doomer before you guys helped
Speaker 2: me turning away from that.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: Uh Steve mcglove and two dollars. Origin of the star
Speaker 2: seeds star seeds was I learned this from a TikTok
Speaker 2: uh engagement I had with crystallogical and this other dude
Speaker 2: that star seeds came from the Hopi tribe. I don't
Speaker 2: know if that's true, but that's what he really gave
Speaker 2: me a talking to that guy. He was like, no,
Speaker 2: you are not star seed. That is a that is
Speaker 2: a Hope tribe thing, not you.
Speaker 1: Well you know what, I bet you. There's an element
Speaker 1: of Native American mythology on Joseph Smith too.
Speaker 2: All right, well he included them in the cartoon exactly. Well,
Speaker 2: the Book of Mormon is their history. So yeah, interesting
Speaker 2: justin Henley two dollars. Well, I'm converting to ladder or yeah,
Speaker 2: to your later Arthur bros. He's converting. That's all it
Speaker 2: took was that one cartoon. Posh redneck whatever that is
Speaker 2: in uh Serbian weasel currency.
Speaker 1: I don't know. In Serbia, and Serbia they pay for
Speaker 1: things with beer and cigarettes, so that's like one cigarettes
Speaker 1: they do. Uh, you're just coping.
Speaker 2: All pre Constantine fathers talked about kolob hanky panky TM
Speaker 2: and use the word thusly in English.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: Posh, thanks, posh, appreciate that. Tain't nothing another five bucks.
Speaker 2: We need a Mormon video game. It could rival Zelda.
Speaker 2: Well I thought about this, Jay, I was thinking of
Speaker 2: all of like these wacky characters. I wouldn't do it
Speaker 2: with like the True God, of course, who would be blasphemy.
Speaker 2: But but like these characters like Joseph Smith and the
Speaker 2: people who started you know, l Ron Hubbard, and you
Speaker 2: make sort of a Mortal Kombat game right between them,
Speaker 2: and they all have like featured things, and they say
Speaker 2: certain phrases and they have certain moves.
Speaker 1: A heretic mortal Yeah, heretical combat so good.
Speaker 2: I just think that the the you'd get shut down
Speaker 2: copyright likeness, Uh, you'd get you know, but such a
Speaker 2: I just.
Speaker 1: Remember this is another testament, like just a little funny
Speaker 1: tangent testament to it being polytheistic. In Battlestar Galactica, which
Speaker 1: is a Mormon sci fi thing. The Cylons who are
Speaker 1: the like AI robot clone entity. Sometimes eventually they become
Speaker 1: what they look like humans, but they're they're AI bots.
Speaker 1: The Cylons are Monotheists, and they're the bad guys. So
Speaker 1: in the Mormon literature, the villains are Monotheists. Wow, I
Speaker 1: didn't pay because Mormonism is right, So they admit it is.
Speaker 2: They don't even try to defend it to lump it
Speaker 2: in with Christianity, they just admit it.
Speaker 1: In the Battlestar Galactica universe, not talking about Mormonism, but
Speaker 1: in that narrative, which is written by Mormon, it's Mormon
Speaker 1: theology in a literary way. The Cylons, who are the
Speaker 1: AI bad guy villains, are monoth the villains of the Monotheists.
Speaker 1: So they're programming the Mormons through their fiction. You know,
Speaker 1: whenever you encounter Monotheists fellow Mormons, they're the bad guys,
Speaker 1: just like the cylons.
Speaker 7: Yeah, every time, every time one plus one plus one
Speaker 7: equals one or dude Ben four ninety nine, I thought
Speaker 7: Lucifer was supposed to be look sexy.
Speaker 2: This dude looks like an in cell.
Speaker 3: What the hell?
Speaker 2: They're bros. Yeah, they're just brothers. You know Hippie Jesus
Speaker 2: was all, Nah, can't force the odds, bro.
Speaker 1: One question I have is okay, so I admitted, if
Speaker 1: Jesus is uncreated and Lucifer's brother is Lucifer also uncreated,
Speaker 1: that's really weird.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that whole That whole thing is crazy. That's
Speaker 2: why it's a We're the ones who are foolish to
Speaker 2: take a philosophical approach. Jay, It's just all comes down
Speaker 2: to Koman feeling feeling good, Kelly Silva nine j or Jimbob.
Speaker 2: Have you seen the Netflix series called American Prime Evil?
Speaker 2: Pretty interesting stuff. It's Mormons versus Christians in eighteen fifty seven.
Speaker 2: Mormons kill a lot of people. I have that on
Speaker 2: my thing to watch. I didn't wantch ame.
Speaker 1: You watched it. I haven't watched it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there's so much to review.
Speaker 1: Have you reviewed?
Speaker 2: I watched Heretic on the I went to Hawaii and
Speaker 2: I watched it on the plane. I thought it was like,
Speaker 2: I didn't know you did a review. I hope I
Speaker 2: can take a look at that. But what did you
Speaker 2: think of generally? If I missed your review? What was
Speaker 2: your take on Heretic? That movie Oh, I liked it.
Speaker 1: I thought it was one of the better religious slash
Speaker 1: cult type stories in a long time. It was a
Speaker 1: little corny at the end, the twist about it maybe
Speaker 1: being a simulation, but I liked that we kept being
Speaker 1: led into different potential explanations multiple times over, so we
Speaker 1: kind of were the detectives watching the movie along with
Speaker 1: the girls and them having their worldview kind of deconstructed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I that it was really good. Yeah, I did too.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a good sign of it early
Speaker 2: on was that they actually presented a negative aspect to
Speaker 2: disbelief in God that that holds its own sort of
Speaker 2: dogmatic consequences as well. It wasn't just straight up religion bad,
Speaker 2: which it was more tilted. It's always tilted that way
Speaker 2: religion bad generally speaking. But at least they got into
Speaker 2: some off there.
Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 2: I actually missed the simulation nod I saw at the end,
Speaker 2: not to spoil it, but it ended with like a
Speaker 2: question of, well, maybe this stuff is real, maybe who knows, Like,
Speaker 2: but what was the nod to I missus?
Speaker 1: Well, if you remember, like at one point when Hugh
Speaker 1: Grant is presenting the different possibilities there's a reference to
Speaker 1: simulation theory. Yeah, and then she remembers seeing a butterfly
Speaker 1: at the window. And then her friend had said, well,
Speaker 1: if I die, you know, I'll come back as a
Speaker 1: butterfly or something like that. And then when she gets
Speaker 1: out of the house, when she crawls out and she
Speaker 1: sees the butterfly, and then like she blinks, and then
Speaker 1: it's unclear if this is my interpretation, it was unclear
Speaker 1: if the butterfly was never there, she just thought she
Speaker 1: saw it. So is that arming? That?
Speaker 2: Oh that part I see, Yeah, there it.
Speaker 1: Was that his simulation theory is possibly the one, or
Speaker 1: is it just simply saying that, No, her friend just
Speaker 1: came back as a butterfly. So I don't I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that maybe out there. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Justin Henley, who had abandoned Orthodoxy and went to Mormonism
Speaker 2: during the stream, actually came back. Thanks so much for
Speaker 2: making that so quick, Justin Ben four nine. Damn it,
Speaker 2: that's actually compelling. Be right back on uncomping Mormon Yeah,
Speaker 2: Chase Haggard Dollar ninety nine, Mormonism is nonsense. Want the
Speaker 2: truth find uranchia?
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we haven't dealt with that in the past.
Speaker 2: Yes, Ben four ninety nine, bro who wrote this weird fanfic. Well,
Speaker 2: it seems like it's more of a synthesis than writing,
Speaker 2: isn't it. We're seeing that he's just drawing and then
Speaker 2: kind of rephrasing things, but he didn't. Is there anything
Speaker 2: he actually did the work of actually making up Jay?
Speaker 2: Is there anything we can credit him for?
Speaker 1: Actually? Well, he has like sermons and stuff, And Smith's
Speaker 1: sermons are useful because it's in those that he presents
Speaker 1: things like clear anti trinitarian, you know, polytheism type stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's other contradictions too, like other other places they're
Speaker 1: modalists and other times they're polytheists. So it's it's just
Speaker 1: not it's not a consistent thing. They just kind of
Speaker 1: make it up as they go, which is why you
Speaker 1: can have Mormon prophets a few decades ago saying that
Speaker 1: Caine is Bigfoot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my favorite. You guys in the chat, you
Speaker 2: think we're joking. I Jay texted me this because I
Speaker 2: was like looking for things. I'm doing an animation. I
Speaker 2: want things to include mentioned. I was like, no, what, wait,
Speaker 2: Kine is bigfoot?
Speaker 1: What and this is a pretty normal like many many
Speaker 1: Mormons and ex Mormons have said, Yeah, we believe that
Speaker 1: we were taught that way.
Speaker 2: Cryptic Kane, it's amazing. Justin Henley five dollars. Eloem just
Speaker 2: behaves like the Greek pantheon. Zeus h. Jay mentioned that,
Speaker 2: except with less shape shifting into goose goose before do
Speaker 2: you mean goose?
Speaker 1: Goose means a goose because zs like like grapes as
Speaker 1: as a goose.
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting, grapes is a goose. Wow, it's sounds like
Speaker 2: another cartoon. Oh man, that's too accurate. Uh, have a
Speaker 2: fly guy, twenty dollars. What about mixed races? Did I
Speaker 2: try to switch sides at the last moment? Well you further,
Speaker 2: I didn't confirm this, but they're only halfway new tool.
Speaker 2: Hey you get baptized. Apparently you can baptize a black
Speaker 2: person in Mormonism and they're no longer considered black. I
Speaker 2: don't know how that works. Is that like a Truons
Speaker 2: that's like similar to the Truns philosophy.
Speaker 1: But I didn't know that. That's great, there's no universe
Speaker 1: about that. Oh, oh, do you're you know they have
Speaker 1: that like a blood ritual two.
Speaker 2: That's what I was asking earlier when he said rituals,
Speaker 2: I was like, does j know any of the weird one?
Speaker 1: So they had a teaching of blood redemption and that's
Speaker 1: oh really, yeah, that's how you read about yourself.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, if you commit a certain sin mm hmm. Smith,
Speaker 1: at least back in the Smith days, they had this
Speaker 1: idea of the only way that you could be redeemed
Speaker 1: as if you were to die, if you committed I
Speaker 1: think it was apostasy. Let me do your self sacrifice. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did they do something with the with the juice after.
Speaker 1: Or I think it's called blood redemption. I forgot about
Speaker 1: this blood atonement. That's it. Early Mormon doctrine had a
Speaker 1: teaching of blood atonement, and the idea was that in
Speaker 1: early Mormonism.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: This is particularly under the time of Brigham Young, if
Speaker 1: you committed certain grievous actions such as murder or covenant breaking.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what covenant breaking is, the atonement could
Speaker 1: only be remedied by your restitution, restitution or redemptive death. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The second President and prophet of the Church, Brigham Young,
Speaker 1: taught this specifically in his eighteen fifties sermons.
Speaker 2: Now that's a tactic you've used in debates that maybe
Speaker 2: most people don't expect because they look at the Book
Speaker 2: of Mormon General Practices. Maybe would other Mormon apologists say
Speaker 2: or don't say, but you were like, well there's these
Speaker 2: lingering sermons.
Speaker 1: No, you have to read the sermons because it's their
Speaker 1: prophets speaking. Yeah, you got to go to those directly.
Speaker 2: Whoever wrote this was sipping on that flint water correctly.
Speaker 2: I mean, it really is like it gets you excited
Speaker 2: a little bit to like write a cartoon. Like Honestly,
Speaker 2: when I watched that Jay, I was like, well, make
Speaker 2: a story like this.
Speaker 1: This is also similar to masonry too, because in masonry,
Speaker 1: at least classically, there's the oath that if you you
Speaker 1: have your slit, if you release the secrets of masonry,
Speaker 1: that's the oath you take. And probably Brigham and Joseph
Speaker 1: copied that oath as well for their blood atonement doctrine.
Speaker 2: That would be kind of funny they held that, but
Speaker 2: there actually were no secrets, like they just didn't have them.
Speaker 2: But they were like they exist. If you threaten them,
Speaker 2: will you die? But you have to work your way
Speaker 2: up to the secrets.
Speaker 1: I heard.
Speaker 2: We often think that in freemasonry, like what is it
Speaker 2: the highest? We always think that thirty three is the highest.
Speaker 2: That's actually not true, right, It's like it goes up.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's hard to say because who's official
Speaker 1: in this stuff anyway?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: I mean, so you can go study at Black Lodges
Speaker 1: where you can go all the way up to the
Speaker 1: ninety eighth degree of the Memphis and Misery, but then
Speaker 1: the rest of the Masons don't recognize that.
Speaker 2: So who knows.
Speaker 1: It's all just made up anyway.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Ben for four ninety nine says, when does
Speaker 2: iron Man save Jesus from doctor Doom? It's pretty much,
Speaker 2: you know, if he lived longer. And can you imagine
Speaker 2: Joseph Smith saw some of the cool stories that existed
Speaker 2: today and he wanted to include them.
Speaker 1: How crazy. It's very similar to Marvel Cinemata universe. That's accurate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Duff Freak two dollars was Jay raised in Sarasota, Florida.
Speaker 3: You don't have to answer that if you don't want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm problem the Bible Belt, but not from Florida.
Speaker 2: Justin Henley. Two dollars Treasure seeker is a fun way
Speaker 2: of saying thief. That's actually funny. Treasure seeker. He was
Speaker 2: a he was just an adventurer.
Speaker 1: It's like he had like a stick Jones, that's all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Indiana Jones. And he had the stick with
Speaker 2: the with the bag lunch in the back. Ben four
Speaker 2: nine nine. Justin Hart, Justin Henley, check Mark, thank you
Speaker 2: so much for that, Will Emmanuel handing over the Pesos
Speaker 2: endless celestial sex, super chat train.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, President Sundowner Bucks, bagel sharing, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Share your bagels, share your bagel spreads. Uh h, Brossei
Speaker 2: four nine nine. H laughs out loud. Can't imagine Jay
Speaker 2: getting precept by a soon to be wine mom. She
Speaker 2: hit you with the cannons of Virginia Slims and you
Speaker 2: froze up. I'm guessing no.
Speaker 5: I like that.
Speaker 2: You were very nice with that young lady about I
Speaker 2: think I thought she said Virginia Slims. I figured about Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I thought that was yet.
Speaker 1: It was a tongue in cheek. Debate is an actress?
Speaker 1: I mean what we respect? You know? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Cody four nine nine. Have you noticed Mormons investing caffeine?
Speaker 2: Muslims will sell you alcohol, Amish will let you drive
Speaker 2: them around, they will help you send when you missed
Speaker 2: out a group. We won't mention them. Everyone knows that
Speaker 2: is interesting. Jay mentioned they invest they are our corporations,
Speaker 2: that they're going to include all of their income. Right,
Speaker 2: So uh deut Jel five bucks says, I forgot to
Speaker 2: mention these prophetic YouTubers claim to be the reference of
Speaker 2: Acts two seven.
Speaker 1: Except that in the Book of Acts Peter literally says
Speaker 1: that what's happening at Pentecost and Acts two is the
Speaker 1: fulfillment of Joel. Say that again in Acts two when
Speaker 1: Peter starts preaching about what's happening at actswos Pentecosts. So
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit coming down and the people seeing the
Speaker 1: miraculous manifestation of speaking in languages not gibberish languages, that's
Speaker 1: the fulfillment of the Book of Joel, predicting in the
Speaker 1: last days the Spirit will be poured out in all flesh. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it is not about any YouTuber today. When Peter
Speaker 1: explains that what's happening in Acts two is the fulfillment,
Speaker 1: does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. I just want to clarify yea, yeah,
Speaker 2: just the only five bucks.
Speaker 1: It's not a sex cult. Yeah, I read that already.
Speaker 3: That's really funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a it's just soaking, just the weirdest thing.
Speaker 1: Well I wasn't even I don't even know about the
Speaker 1: soaking thing. I'm just saying that the sex cult l
Speaker 1: is like the Joseph Smith celestial yah.
Speaker 2: Celestial or yeah, yeah, cosmic wife or you know, multiple
Speaker 2: wive orgies. And this is also the case that you could,
Speaker 2: if you're a good God, if you developed to be
Speaker 2: a really good god, it's not just that you have
Speaker 2: a planet, but you can have your own galaxy.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's like, what is it.
Speaker 2: It's basically like prosperity gospel, but for the cosmic realm,
Speaker 2: where materialism still holds true. Even though you transcend it
Speaker 2: by dying into the cosmic realm, you still get what's
Speaker 2: equivalent to a big mansion. It's just it's just clusters
Speaker 2: of stars or something like this.
Speaker 1: Here's another good question too that we didn't get to,
Speaker 1: which came up in one of the Shammouon's debates with
Speaker 1: one of the Mormons. So I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 1: So if God the Father has a flesh body and
Speaker 1: there's a mother. Yeah, wouldn't that suggest that there's also goddesses?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So and then an act needed to happen to as well, exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 2: endless regress. It's really just like a weird naturalism. It's
Speaker 2: like a weird physical paradigm that then they take the
Speaker 2: physical and then they apply it to the the heavenly.
Speaker 1: It's like a one to one correspondence.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: In fact, a lot of Muslims actually think that Christians
Speaker 1: teach that God the Father impregnated Mary. Right, so it's
Speaker 1: like what Muslims misunderstand is what Mormons actually believe.
Speaker 2: That's hilarious. Wow, that crossover. Another two bucks. It's funny
Speaker 2: because Joseph Smith is such a black name. That's funny,
Speaker 2: Ben four ninety nine. And this makes me want to
Speaker 2: soak so bad, oh Man, Derek five bucks. Mortmon An
Speaker 2: apologist Jacob Hanson claims they believe in theosis the way
Speaker 2: the Church fathers.
Speaker 1: No, I mean that should be obviously not based on
Speaker 1: everything that we've already said. That's obviously not true.
Speaker 2: Smalls four ninety nine. Not gonna lie. Mormonism would make
Speaker 2: a sick Prague Rock concept album. Yeah, perhaps they don't. Wait,
Speaker 2: that's the other thing is like, what is there? Do
Speaker 2: they have a cappella worship music?
Speaker 1: They have the famous Tyernacle choir.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so they don't use they don't do bass solos.
Speaker 1: Then I don't know if Mormon churches have instruments. I
Speaker 1: want to say the r LDS which reorganized and rebranded
Speaker 1: as Community Church, I think I think they have a
Speaker 1: praising worship man, gotcha, I've.
Speaker 2: Never seen it. I thought I would see that though
Speaker 2: on the internet if it existed, I would see it
Speaker 2: in some sort of extreme for format. I don't think
Speaker 2: I have, but you know who knows? Another five bucks?
Speaker 2: Aery Shaffir does a good stand up routine about this junus.
Speaker 2: He says that they have to go soft and it
Speaker 2: isn't considered a stroke to pull. Yeah, it's it's it's
Speaker 2: all legalists loopholes. You know, it's endless, just endless debating.
Speaker 2: It's just constantly debating how you can get away with something. Apparently,
Speaker 2: Harrison Parker remember for twenty eight months, Thank you so much, Harry,
Speaker 2: And that's a long time to support ex Mormon here,
Speaker 2: keep up the destroying logic of the church. It's all
Speaker 2: about the fields. I didn't actually know this, Jay. I
Speaker 2: thought it was more about like submit to unquestioning authority
Speaker 2: that can't justify any positions. I didn't know Mormonism act
Speaker 2: appeals to the fields.
Speaker 1: I was. I was being straight up like, it's that's
Speaker 1: their apologetic is like makes me feel good?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Uh me? And the first time I ever acted interacted
Speaker 1: with Mormons, the missionary in my hometown, it was that
Speaker 1: was the conversation. It was like I was a little
Speaker 1: bit into apologetics. I didn't know a whole lot about it,
Speaker 1: but I was like, well, why am I supposed to
Speaker 1: believe in the Book of Mormon. They're like, because you're
Speaker 1: gonna feel it, just praying to feel it.
Speaker 4: That was it.
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, well, will y'all want I
Speaker 1: actually tried to get them to watch that god Maker's
Speaker 1: clip that we watched mm HM because it used to
Speaker 1: be on VHS, and they were like, we'll have to
Speaker 1: ask our elders if we can do that. And I
Speaker 1: was like, I will watch y'all's Mormon Jesus movie. Because
Speaker 1: they were handing out VHS is of Mormon Jesus. I
Speaker 1: was like, I will watch that if y'all will watch
Speaker 1: this with me and their elders told them no, they couldn't,
Speaker 1: no trade off, no, no go.
Speaker 2: Ben four nine, Oh you go, commando question, Who's guess
Speaker 2: who's going to Hell?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 2: The underwear thing, that would just be funny to have
Speaker 2: a pair of unopened magical underwear just to like just
Speaker 2: for you know, keepsake, just for Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Do they make like what if you're an
Speaker 1: elder Mormon, do you get like the you know, elder diapers.
Speaker 2: Depends, Yeah, magical depends or something like this, all in
Speaker 2: the goods. Ten bucks, give me, give me, give me
Speaker 2: dire by Fire, dire by Fire.
Speaker 1: Did you see that black creature, the one you did
Speaker 1: you had on a clip?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was cracking me out, man, some of them
Speaker 2: the things I'm finding, I'm just like, I'm like, I'm
Speaker 2: like laughing and giggling like in a nice light way,
Speaker 2: but I'm also like part of me is dying inside
Speaker 2: that it exists. Ben five bucks, cutting off your cosmic
Speaker 2: junk is just circumcision with extra credit. Yeah, and in
Speaker 2: a sense, another thing they stole maximum ten bucks, JB.
Speaker 2: Look forward to seeing you on whatever. Yeah, it's going
Speaker 2: to be fun. I think mostly you know, my patients
Speaker 2: will be tested at least, so that's good.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get I'm trying to get not so
Speaker 1: aroudite to do a debate as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I hope that happens. That was supposed to
Speaker 2: happen this Saturday for me, but they couldn't find someone.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to be in Santa Barbara and probably
Speaker 2: without a debate opponent. But that's fine, you know, come
Speaker 2: back next time if that's the case. Extentally five dollars.
Speaker 2: How can someone be sixty percent eternal?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is kind of weird.
Speaker 1: Nate five bucks? How would you answer this question? Her question?
Speaker 2: How did God get to become God? I thought it
Speaker 2: was just a dumb question. Well, we'd say God's eternal, uncreated,
Speaker 2: there's no becoming.
Speaker 1: He doesn't becoming God, but.
Speaker 2: There is in mormonives, you have to become Well, what
Speaker 2: how do how does what was the question for him?
Speaker 2: How did God become human? Is the question? It's even
Speaker 2: a more brutal question to to the question of what's
Speaker 2: God's you know, ontological status in time, pre time, et cetera.
Speaker 2: This is a worse question. It's like you hold that
Speaker 2: God was once human, but was he eternally human and
Speaker 2: became God? Well that doesn't make sense even if you say, no,
Speaker 2: he became human, but he was once God.
Speaker 1: That does that? Also?
Speaker 2: Does that? You know? That's a I don't even know
Speaker 2: what they mean when they're saying these these transitions are happening,
Speaker 2: you know, so denial of universals.
Speaker 1: Well, if you when we asked that Mormon gud too,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was Robert Gerr was one of
Speaker 1: the other ones we were asking about the eternal. Maybe
Speaker 1: it was Gerr, but he was admitting, Oh, there's a
Speaker 1: bunch of different you know, eternal things. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: that would be polytheism. He's like, no, we just defined
Speaker 1: polytheism differently or something like change the meanings of the
Speaker 1: words and say no, it's not pitism because that's not
Speaker 1: what paltheism means.
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, well then they take the approach that
Speaker 2: there's eternality of what you say prima material is that
Speaker 2: what you the phrase.
Speaker 1: Right matter is like the ancient it's a teaching of Aristotle.
Speaker 1: Aristotle believes that matters eternal and then the first cause
Speaker 1: God of Aristotle forms prime matter into the forms that
Speaker 1: we have.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so just like like it, unintelligible mass then
Speaker 2: takes some sort of intelligible form.
Speaker 1: So the deity of Aristotle is the great Architect of
Speaker 1: the universe. An architect works with pre existing matter, he
Speaker 1: doesn't create out of nothing. And likewise, Masonry's God is
Speaker 1: a great architect of the universe. Literally, that's what the
Speaker 1: g and masonry stands for the great architect because they
Speaker 1: Masons don't believe in creation. Next Nilo Joseph Smith just
Speaker 1: directly borrowed that out of masonry. Interesting.
Speaker 2: It's because it's interesting because I debate. You know, these
Speaker 2: atheists who now are confronting that there is some sort
Speaker 2: of necessary component to reality that has to be eternal essentially,
Speaker 2: so they they keep going back in time and then
Speaker 2: they eventually get to this place where they're saying there
Speaker 2: is a They make the transcendental argument for God, by
Speaker 2: the way, which is not for God, it's for the
Speaker 2: initial state.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Initial state. Well, well it's not even not matter. As
Speaker 2: I press them on matter and they go to initial
Speaker 2: state is something. When you ask them to extrapolate on it,
Speaker 2: they agree that whatever they're about to say can't be
Speaker 2: identical to how they understand everything that comes after matter,
Speaker 2: think how things operate together. It has to be beyond that.
Speaker 1: In so so the the great divine bang.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, totally like beyond our comprehension can't match
Speaker 2: the reality after it.
Speaker 1: It's really funny when you asked them about that pre
Speaker 1: banged state, they're like, it was all of the universes
Speaker 1: bound up into an infinite, infinitely piny, and infinitely tiny particle,
Speaker 1: which is like, there's absolutely no evidence at all for that.
Speaker 1: It's all just totally made up. It's literally like Mormon
Speaker 1: level stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild. They're like, and then and you're like, well,
Speaker 2: that particle exists inside what car like a Cartesian.
Speaker 1: Plane, Like you don't know what exploded.
Speaker 2: No, it's just it's like everything in there's nothing outside
Speaker 2: of that thing. And okay, that really just you're just
Speaker 2: making an impersonal god with no intent, right, that's all
Speaker 2: you're doing.
Speaker 1: And it's an even stupider position than what they think
Speaker 1: is stupid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's even dumber than whoever turns God into the
Speaker 2: infinite material space realm. You know, they're just doing the opposite.
Speaker 2: They're just like, no, we're going to condense that. They're like,
Speaker 2: that's stupid. They're like, well, your god replacement is just
Speaker 2: a tiny particle that encapsulates everything before time. Okay, cool,
Speaker 2: so you're religious. So you're religious. Bend five bucks. Here's
Speaker 2: some money to stuff in your shoulder pads. I know
Speaker 2: I need to get these things out well.
Speaker 1: By the way, I mean Mormonism, I guess, would also
Speaker 1: be not consistent with big bang unless they think that
Speaker 1: there's multiverse, because how can you have an infinite succession
Speaker 1: of gods if there's a big bang? Yeap to start everything.
Speaker 2: That's true, they're gonna have to have and even the yeah,
Speaker 2: the initial state would have some state before it that
Speaker 2: would just be the real godly It's like the Eternal Father.
Speaker 1: Same thing.
Speaker 2: Worried you'll have the smallest shoulders on the panel. I
Speaker 2: just I'm not worried. I'm sure of that. I'll use
Speaker 2: that to my advantage.
Speaker 1: That's how I.
Speaker 2: Soften my opponents. By the ways, there just like a
Speaker 2: get doing the panel thing. They couldn't find a one off,
Speaker 2: one on one for me the day before, so I'll
Speaker 2: just do the classic nine hour panel. By the way,
Speaker 2: if you end up going there, Jay and you do
Speaker 2: a one on one. I'm gonna be pissed if you
Speaker 2: don't have to survive the eight hour panel with the chicks.
Speaker 1: So is it actually eight hours? Well it could be.
Speaker 2: I mean it's more like whoa, maybe I've seen a
Speaker 2: high six.
Speaker 1: At some point. Oh okay, wow, this is a lot though.
Speaker 2: Especially at like where it'll go in the last two hours.
Speaker 2: You know what kind of topics you'll get into, but
Speaker 2: you'll get to see through my pain. One thousand wives.
Speaker 2: But they all look the same.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: They don't even get a variety like the Don't the
Speaker 2: Muslims at least, you know, provide some sort of diversity.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know what the how
Speaker 1: well falled out that.
Speaker 2: Is Orthodox Pilgrim twenty bucks from here, Hey, Ephraim. Any
Speaker 2: cult borrows concepts from the surrounding religions. Mormonism is no
Speaker 2: different than Islam in this regard. Tons of parallels between them.
Speaker 2: Great work, guys, good struggle to you both during Lent.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Prairie muffin Muslims is what I've been calling them.
Speaker 2: Very muff funny ah, yeah, because what else could they
Speaker 2: appeal to? They have to borrow from something around them
Speaker 2: or else. And I'm trying to think of like, oh,
Speaker 2: is there any cult you can think of that was
Speaker 2: pretty pretty grassroots.
Speaker 1: And not just completely made up? I don't know, but
Speaker 1: and that reminds me too. Muslims will pretend, kid you not,
Speaker 1: that the Qur'an invents and pioneers Greek atomism as a position.
Speaker 1: The Sunni Muslims will claim that it's divine revelation that
Speaker 1: they knew about Greek atomism. It's like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: you're admitting that that's from Greek philosophers. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: in the Quran and improves it to be true. Wow,
Speaker 1: you ripped it off of them. No, it came from
Speaker 1: the Koran. Yeah. And the Shia do the exact same thing.
Speaker 1: So when we had doctor Kololan, we were arguing with
Speaker 1: doctor Clots, like, wait a minute, you're saying that and
Speaker 1: his students you're saying that the Quran is really just neoplatonism. Yes,
Speaker 1: does it come from Plato and the neoplatonists? No, it's
Speaker 1: from the Quran. Mm hm wow yeah yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: you see how silly that is. It is?
Speaker 2: Though, Well, I see why you get like, you know,
Speaker 2: get so flustered with some and and and rightly so
Speaker 2: asked the question, when you get to that point with
Speaker 2: someone on a call, is there really anything that you
Speaker 2: can do or say if they take if they if
Speaker 2: you show them this and you go, do you see
Speaker 2: I'll observed this and they know?
Speaker 1: I mean, what else can you do? Well, he's saying like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, that's uh, you know the Summa Theologica of
Speaker 1: Aquinas I wrote that, and then you go and you
Speaker 1: read like my version of it, which is just me
Speaker 1: adding a few paragraphs at the bottom, as I see,
Speaker 1: that's mine. And then what did the one guy say?
Speaker 5: Jay?
Speaker 1: He said, well, it was taken out? And you go,
Speaker 1: how do you know it's taken out?
Speaker 2: What he said? He said, it wasn't there?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's not there exactly. That's why I'm I'm
Speaker 1: propaed in the Old Testament. How do you know? Well,
Speaker 1: is it there?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Exactly, so they took it out? What do you need
Speaker 1: that's proof? That's just that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Why I heard that part of the of the combo,
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, well I understand why Jay
Speaker 2: knocks him off at that point, because like you just
Speaker 2: can't Yeah, I mean, if they can't reason that through
Speaker 2: and go okay, this is this is um sure I
Speaker 2: have to rethink this.
Speaker 1: Look, yes, it's true that Plato teaches Platonism, but it's
Speaker 1: from the Quran. And you know how they get around that. Well,
Speaker 1: the Kuran's eternal, right, Oh, the eternal Karan. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's not Mohammed and his career ripping it off
Speaker 1: of Plato for the.
Speaker 2: Eternal courn Oh so it's it's all so they're remembering it.
Speaker 2: It's all like this, this constant download, their revelatory system
Speaker 2: is a sort of like a down it's a download
Speaker 2: system that they're remembering or something like that.
Speaker 1: Uh. Remember we were talking about Jordan Peterson and somebody
Speaker 1: there was an academic that sent me an essay critiquing
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson and it was a really good critique and
Speaker 1: he said, Jordan Peterson is an archaeologist of ideas and
Speaker 1: he's trying to piece together.
Speaker 2: She's gonna talk.
Speaker 8: Sorry, it's okay, give me this, give me that, kill
Speaker 8: my enemy, kill my enemy, give me, give me, give me,
Speaker 8: give me.
Speaker 2: Is that a Is that a hardcore rap song or
Speaker 2: something that's the that's the preacher, that's the that was
Speaker 2: the black preacher that you were reviewing, got you, I
Speaker 2: didn't recognize the leader.
Speaker 1: It would be like, you know, so that the professor
Speaker 1: was saying, Jordan Peterson is an archaeologist of ideas, and
Speaker 1: it's as if he thinks as the super mystical psychologist,
Speaker 1: he can reconstruct the ancient true religion from the religions
Speaker 1: and it's like he'll be the sort of prophetic arbiter,
Speaker 1: right I now Peterson hasn't gone that far, but like
Speaker 1: it's like what Joseph Smith did, right, interesting level beyond
Speaker 1: saying I have reconstructed for you the true ancient religion
Speaker 1: and I've patched it together because I have the authority
Speaker 1: in the revelation to do so. And here it is.
Speaker 2: Interesting, it wouldn't It's similar, not exact, but parallel to
Speaker 2: the what would be the mechanics of like trying to
Speaker 2: pick from a multitude of relige just believes, trying to
Speaker 2: find the truth of each of them, putting them in
Speaker 2: a cart and calling it a new religion that doesn't
Speaker 2: tell you how those things are true to begin with. Right, So, well,
Speaker 2: that's what.
Speaker 1: It rests on the self appointed authority of the prophet to.
Speaker 2: Do it right. Yeah, So it's always this person coming
Speaker 2: along and going, oh, I'm I'm dictating this for you guys,
Speaker 2: you should follow me. That's why, Probably why it's super
Speaker 2: effective is because if it quote resonates with people and
Speaker 2: it feels right and it sounds right, and they use
Speaker 2: their sort of intuition, which a lot of us do
Speaker 2: rely on our intuition. A lot of times it doesn't verify,
Speaker 2: but we do rest on our intuition. If you just
Speaker 2: go with that, I can see why people get lost
Speaker 2: in the sauce with that, because it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: it just seems it's a good sounding thing. It's like
Speaker 2: listening to uh, what's his name? If you're not if
Speaker 2: you're not thoughtful and at least somewhat philosophically based, if
Speaker 2: you listen to Russell brand talk, you might get swept
Speaker 2: away in the good sounding sort of platitudes and be like,
Speaker 2: this guy's onto something. It's you tonight. It's a baptizing
Speaker 2: on the way