Speaker 1: What's up, big guts? What's up, Big Gouts?
Speaker 2: Welcome Happy Wednesday, Happy Wednesday. I hope you're all doing
well today. We've got a fun one today for you. Boy,
do we have a fun one. We're gonna have the
meanest person on the internet jump on, Jay Dyer. We're
going to do a look at Mormonism. Got a couple
of things for y'all to look at. But first I
want to test audio before I waste Jay's time. And
he says this is domb so waste time, dude, goofy.
Let me just test it to make sure it's not
a doubling.
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't want to. I don't want a situation
where we're doubling.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna bring I'm gonna start a just pretty
much the best cartoon that's ever existed. Thanks Jay for
showing me this cartoon. I actually like the animation style
of it. Just make sure it works here for you
guys in the audience. So let me bring this on,
and uh make sure you guys tell me if this
is you hear it first of all, and second of all,
if it's doubling, I don't want it doubling. Okay, Let
me know in the chat. Okay, I don't want to
get it too far into the gold because it's amazing.
We gotta have Jay on here you no audio? Okay,
that's not good. All right, let me just change this
for a second.
Speaker 1: Then, how about how about still? No?
Speaker 2: Should be?
Speaker 3: Should be?
Speaker 2: I might have to share it within stream yard, which
is fine with me. No, okay, okay, let me do this.
Let me do it the other way. Then I'll bring
it on a different style. Make sure it works this way. Okay, alright,
here we go, Window.
Speaker 1: Mormon.
Speaker 2: Okay, now that this is up on this squeen, you
guys tell me if now you hear it?
Speaker 3: Okay, please?
Speaker 2: Yeah, son of a I tell you a combination of
Jay and I with technology. I tell you what?
Speaker 1: Tell you what?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Still? Huh? Okay, all right, hold on, let's try this.
How about how about now.
Speaker 2: Bill?
Speaker 3: All right, well, just a long one second.
Speaker 2: Then I'm gonna change one thing here. I tried to
test this earlier, but let me do this. Lose got
this now, let's bring this down and share it one
more time. You just gotta make you gotta make sure
we got this. Thank you Jay for your patience. Sir,
Also share audio. Here we go, Here we go, Look,
here we go. Now it should work. Now we got it.
Here we go. Tell me you guys like us.
Speaker 5: They say that long ago, on one of these planets,
to an unidentified god and one of his goddess wives,
a spirit child named Elohem was conceived. Yes, this spirit
child was later born to human parents who gave him
a physical body.
Speaker 2: Is literally the best thing I've ever seen. It's all
my inspiration for cartooning is from this video. Okay, cool,
without further ado, welcome the meanest person on the Internet,
Jay Dyer, glad to.
Speaker 1: Be here and ready to hurt people's feelings.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, we're gonna hurt people's feelings. You've done extensive work.
All the work has already been done against Mormonism. But
it's fun to just kind of revisit, especially with all
with all these cartoons and videos that you can find
just such gold for Mormonism. It's just a it's like
a special kind of aesthetic too. You don't find this.
You don't find this kind of cartoon and stuff for Islam,
do you?
Speaker 1: You do? You do?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 1: There are some Okay, good? Well, I mean they could compete.
I think we did you and I did determine that
this might be dumber, Yes, but they can They could
compete because you've got Satan farting, You've got eternal Qurans
that exists next to Allah, right, but it's monotheism. You've
got uh, bodily fluid Hadith's that I won't go into.
So yep, similarities between these two, but.
Speaker 2: The the kind of liberties specifically Mormons have taken. And
to be as fair as possible, there's an early stage
Mormonism where you find a lot of like, I hate
to say crazier, but they're wacky. And is it fair
to say modern Mormons are like, No, that's you know,
we don't hold that anymore. We're moving away from that.
Is there a sect of Mormonism who's basically saying, no,
this early stuff that you guys are finding is not
the real Mormonism. Are they separating themselves from it?
Speaker 1: They seem to be moving in the direction of downplaying
it and being a little more woke. Okay. One of
the splits the RLDS, Right, for example, they rebranded as
the Community Church, so they've already adopted like a non
denominational rebrand, right, But I mean, as far as I know,
like all this stuff is technically still there.
Speaker 2: Okay, So pretending that someone in the Chat has only
had a peripheral understanding of Mormonism, before we bring up
some of these glorious links that you gave me in
the text, can we give like a real quick summary
of its beginnings, the kernel the seed of Mormonism.
Speaker 1: So basically, you had a young guy, Joseph Smith, who
was kind of an adventurer, a treasure hunter. Supposedly, maybe
he wanted to be a little Indiana Jones before Anana Jones,
And he seemed to be troubled about the various religious
sects and denominations and the claims of those religions, right,
and so he supposedly went into the woods after visiting
different denominations and prayed, and you asked God to reveal
to him to him the true Church, or what the
real true religion was, And the angel Moroni apparently appeared
to him and told him that there were golden plates,
and that these golden plates that were buried in North
America had the secrets of what happened to the true
tribes of Israel, the true Church. The Church was under
apostasy and blackout. So sometime after the death the Apostles,
between that time and Constantine, there's this blackout that's officially
on the Mormon website, you can go read about the
apostasy theory. And there's this vast array of wild, sort
of comic booky stories about the history of the tribes
of Israel, who are apparently some forms of Native Americans
on North America. And the Book of Mormon is that
history of this restored True Church. And so in the
latter days the True Church has been restored. The church
also got new revelations where he transcribed from this magical text,
these golden tablets, which are supposed to be Egyptian hieroglyphics.
They got new revelations about multiple wives, you know, polygamy,
or I should say polytheism. God was once a man
like us. He evolved to become God the Father. He
has a flesh body, He impregnates women. He impregnated Mary,
so it turns into a really kind of wild The
best way I could describe is a wild sci fi
space opera. And movies and TV shows like battles Ar
Galactica are actually written by and based on Mormon ideas,
and so they have the Lords of Colob. The planet
that God the Father is from is called Collab. It's
out there somewhere in a distant galaxy. This is actual
Mormon teaching. And so they believe more, probably more important
than all that, is that any new prophet has the
ability to rewrite and change what came before. So they
don't understand or believe that profits have to be consistent
with the revelation that came before. A new prophet can
literally just erase, change, correct, and write himself into prophecies.
And that's actually what they think prophethood is. That's why
the Mormon Church is governed by prophets that are living
apostles who have divine revelations. Essentially, whatever they do is
a prophetic divine revelation. They can add new teachings. There's
multiple source documents. The Bible's corrupted and so it has
to be corrected by doctrine and covenants, the Book of
Mormon and the pearlar Grade Price. They also have further
teachings from the Mormon prophets and bishops, they call them
bishops and apostles. H that's the restored Church. And so
here we are it's a uniquely Americanist religion. They have
a very intense devotion to the Constitution, kind of a
libertarianish ethos. They believe in a white Horse prophecy that
the Constitution towards the end of America and of the
world will be in danger and a Mormon, the Mormon
Church will save the Constitution in America, they believe. So
there's a very close tie in also to politics, and
hence the you know presidential run of Mitt Romney and
and people like that. So and for those who don't know,
there's also close tie to the history of the Central
Intelligence Agency. The Mormons are very useful for recruiting UH
operatives among and spies amongst Mormon missionaries because they go
over in the world and learn the local languages. So
a lot of other things I'll cull influences, Masonic influences,
But that's the basics.
Speaker 2: Gotcha, thank you for that. And and the is there
influence on because because it sounds similar in the storyline
is like scientology, like you create, there's like a cosmic
aspect to it. There's a location, there's a there is
there any relation between those in so far as how
one UH fed off the other at all, or is
it just totally different. The scientology has some some kind
of fun that you would call goofy.
Speaker 1: There definitely are, they're both sci fi. I'm trying to
think of there's any potential connect The only potential connections
I could think of is that Mormonism eventually did wet
itself pretty closely to what we call the deep state
because they end up having the world's foremost genealogical library.
M And that's important for Mormons because they believe in
being baptized for their dead relatives.
Speaker 2: Right, you baptize and Frank, Right, you can baptize, go
up to the grave and re it's kind of without there.
What I found interesting is that that sort of after them,
like retroactive baptism for the dead, they actually have someone
stand in the place of who would be being baptized.
For instance, when they visit the grave of v and Frank
and say let's baptize, they actually have a stand in,
you know, like you would a like a like on
a Hollywood set, like a stand in for the light. Right,
they baptized the person in place. That was interesting to
find out.
Speaker 1: But when you say.
Speaker 2: Restored, that means that something was whole and was broken
and needs to be restored. So like let's say our
bone breaks, for us to say let's restore the bone,
it assumes that it once was whole being repatched up.
So from a Mormon view, what's the first whole wholeness
of the bone that they're restoring or did they not
get into that they don't want to.
Speaker 1: Well, I think they think that in the Apostolic era
there was a true church, and then they point to
text like where Paul talks about the Apostasy, and then
they went out from among us and so forth, and
there will be you know, infiltrators coming into the church,
Paul Warrens, Timothy. They point to those as proofs of
a great Apostasy, which is from the first to third century.
So it's actually the same arguments that you see Seven
Day Adventists, Fundamentalist, Baptist right. They make this argument just
like Mormons, and they may have actually stolen that argument
from some of those groups because if you go to
the Latter Day Saint website where they lay out their
official position on the Great Apostasy, it sounds exactly like
what Seven Day Adventists and others say. So I think
there have been cult overlaps, and at least in the
case of like Howard Hughes. You know, Howard Hughes was
in the Mormon sphere. He was a Mormon at least
I think for most of his life. I if he
died in Mormon or not. But and of course Howard
he was working very closely with the American establishment. I
think he even had like intelligence agent, you know, secret
service bodyguards who were he would only use Mormon bodyguards. Right, So,
even at that time Howard Hugh was working very closely
with the establishment in America, Mormonism was pretty pretty soon attached,
I guess you could say, to the power structure, and
since that time. Another really important thing to note about
Mormonism is that it's not just a church. It's also
an international corporation. They are chartered as a corporation. They
have a hedge fund, they have multiple shell companies, and
they're structured very much like Gladio was structured with all
of its fronts and covers and shells, and so they
have stocks they have. In fact, they used to own
a lot of stock in corporations that sold caffeine, which
is kind of weird because you think caffeine is evil.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's funny. Do they have colub coin or anything
like that.
Speaker 1: Well, they had stalking like Pepsi and Taco bell and
it's like, well that has caffeine in But anyway.
Speaker 2: That's bizarre. So before we get into some of these
hilarious cartoons in the sort of deboot sphere that we're
all in these panels and there's a lot of debating
and stuff.
Speaker 1: You invite Mormons, but.
Speaker 2: Is it It seems to me just from the from
from just looking at it, that when we debate like
heterodox Protestantism and these kinds of things that are they're
very rampant and modern in the West, even though Mormonism
is just as rampant. And uh, they're here with us, right,
I mean, they they take up a lot of real estate,
They they create their own little mini cities and so forth.
But is it fair to say that we don't even
look at them in the same race as say the
normal debate with like heterodox because you notice how we
debate and we're like, okay, so let's debate the solas.
Speaker 1: Let's debate this.
Speaker 2: We're talking about the authority of the church ultimately, and
who is the true church, whereas like it seems like
Mormonism is just not even it's just kind of adjacent
to that argument.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense.
Speaker 2: They're not like, it doesn't seem like they're in the
same race as these other things we debate. They're like
their own sort like.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. One reason for that, I think
is that Mormonism, although it's had here and there a
couple apologists, it does not rely on logic argumentation, debate
historical facts. They have some people who try to sort
of craft those things after post Hawk, but it's not
had anything really to back it up because of the
fantastical claims of Joseph Smith, and so it's kind of
had to rely on feelings. And this is pretty well known.
You know, they tell you when they try to convert you,
they say, you know, pray and see how you feel.
And that's a huge, you know, element, the emotivism versus
anything that with rational dialectical discourse. And so now they're
not really known for apologetics. But for whatever reason, the
last year or so, we have seen a real big
push online, especially on Twitter for Mormon stuff, just like
with Islam, and so I think we might see more
and more of these pseudo apologists pop up. But I mean,
as you can tell with I think we've had probably
ten Mormons by now come on my debate streams. It
doesn't go very far.
Speaker 2: No, That's that's why I found it interesting. And I've
had a sudden uptick in Mormon trolls in my chat
and I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I've never really
had some linger, but there's been a noticeable uptick in
the opposition, even if their bots or whatever. I was like, Oh,
that's that's interesting that that's happening recently. But anything else
you want to preface before we get into this amazing
cartoon that everyone needs to see, as far as like
just general Mormonism for instance, is it a do you
think Mormonism is a is any kind of threat to
to the West the same way other things are or
is it just like a different kind of thing that's
just sort of in the in the peripheral as like
A like A.
Speaker 1: I think as people, as people get dumbed down and
are not able to utilize critical thinking, which is happening
at a more extreme and more extreme and more extreme rate.
I think that the low IQ cults like Mormonism and
Islam will appeal, unfortunately to people in the West. And
one of the reasons that Mormonism appeals maybe you know
so much Islam, but Mormonism appeals to people in the
West precisely because they think of it as another Christian
denomination that's very family centered, very wholesome, very you know,
centered around you know, family, home, pizza, Knight or whatever.
The thing that they have is that.
Speaker 2: So it's like it's a form of base for some people,
like the like you've seen the whole Truther thing, where
especially because of Krunka, people sort of pulled out of
modernity and they're kind of scapegoating modernity and kind of
including the establishment all is this one giant thing like
a technocrat, a technocratic monster, And so you saw people
kind of eject themselves and go to the land. And
I could see how how you just phrase that, like
how people move toward Islam or Mormonism because it's like
the alternative sort of well, it's kind of based. It's
based enough, it's family, Oh, polygamy is based, and it's
really just like more it's really just more materialism. Though
that that seems to be a reaction to materialism, like
where it's like leave the cities, go to the land.
But then you're like, what, where's the church, And you're like, well,
my garden is the church, the family is the is
the church is. We're doing it right here. I could
see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a sex cult. I mean, let's just be honest. Yeah,
Mormonism is an eternal sex cult where you will have
spirit wives and spirit babies and spirit sex for all eternity.
It's very close to what Mohammed promised his followers for martyrdom.
You get the virgins in heaven. So again yet another
parallel where essentially humans are just being manipulated by very
basic drives like sexuality. And it's not that you know,
sex is bad, it's not that there's not a place
for that, but it's pretty clear that sex is a
tool within the cult structure of Mormonism, just like with Islam. Yeah,
to control their their population, gotcha.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the and biomis just jump in especially those are
that is in addition to just like sort of mocking
it and making fun of it, drawing out some of
the parallels to the other false religions, I think people
will find extremely interesting. Jay, you tell me when you
want to stop any of this as well. But here, Folks,
is the best cartoon on the Internet that I've ever seen.
Speaker 6: Regardless of its Christian veneer, the basic tenets of Mormonism
are in direct conflict with Biblical Christianity. The following piece
of animation, based directly on actual Mormon publications, highlights these
major doctrinal differences.
Speaker 5: Mormonism teaches the trillions of planets scattered throughout the cosmos
are ruled by countless gods who once were human like us.
They say that long ago, on one of these planets,
to an unidentified God and one of his goddess wives,
a spirit child named Elohem was conceived. This spirit child
was later born to human parents, who gave him a
physical body. Obedience to Mormon teaching and death and resurrection,
he proved himself worthy and was elevated to godhood as
his father before him.
Speaker 2: Okay, just I have to stop it there, because even
starting and saying all of these gods were once like you,
they were human, and they became godly over time brings
into question, well, who initiated the beings to start? Right?
And so it's like like it obviously we'll see it's
an endless regress of cosmic daddies.
Speaker 1: I don't think they thought that through. It's an infinite
regress of cosmic daddies exactly.
Speaker 2: It's wild because you're like, oh, what do you mean,
we became we became like God? So they pervert theosis
and they make it some other thing.
Speaker 1: Well. No, Also, it's also it's a they call it
eternal progression. So for them, it's an eternal cycle of
evolving daddies. And to be wid Yeah, to be clear,
that guy that right there, that that is God the Father.
Speaker 5: M hmm.
Speaker 1: So they think Elohem is God the Father who was
a dude that just went full He looks like he
man here right.
Speaker 2: So wait, so back in the day, there was obviously
the capacity to distinguish the plurality of Llohem, right, So that.
Speaker 1: Was just just.
Speaker 2: Missed on purpose? Is that an ignorance thing?
Speaker 1: They would just probably say something like, we don't know.
I listened to a couple of debates where this came
up with Mormons and they just kind of say, well,
we're not told that. That's we're not told that. We're
not told by the way Mormons, a Muslim do the
same thing, right, so when you get into some of
the problems in the kronaba Alla and his attributes, they'll
just say, we're not permitted to ask beyond that. Gotcha?
Speaker 5: Alrighty, Mormons believe that Eloheim is their heavenly father and
that he lives with his many goddess wives on a
planet near a mysterious star.
Speaker 1: Dude, he had there was not a single brunette amongst
that harem, no redheads, no brunetts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, here, the God of Mormonism and his wives endless
celestial sex.
Speaker 2: That's my favorite phrase in the whole card, endless celestial sex.
Whoever made this critique is probably, honestly probably what a
type of a Protestant that even made this cartoon?
Speaker 1: Don't you think I think Jeremiah Films is some kind
of evangelical Yeah, yeah, but again that's a that's a
Muslim thing too, right and less. Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2: The funniest like it's like a band. It's it's like
a band name.
Speaker 5: Produced billions of spirit children spirit kipps to decide their destiny,
the head of the spirit diapers and spirit poop.
Speaker 2: Spirit. Well, that's funny, is that all of this? Right,
they're having these dinners and they're deciding yeah, so and
then they're going to figure out a plan to then
go to Earth, to Earth. But then they get their bodies.
But right now they have their bodies and they're eating,
and they're and they're drinking. It's like, okay, what's this.
What is the spirit realm that precedes the material realm
where they receive the body.
Speaker 1: Well, this is, by the way, just to make a
quick note here, this is the condemned doctrine of the
pre existence of souls, which is a neo Platonic Plato
teaching that before we came into bodies, we had an
ethereal you know, eternal formal existence with the monat or
with here with elohems. So Joseph Smith is basically just
copying and pasting from Plato Platonism, which is a big
part of Freemasonry. By the way, the neoplatonic stuff is
really essential to Albert Pike if you read Morals and Dogma.
And this was a funny thing that I have to
give Sam Schuman credit for mentioning this. He said, you know,
if you think about it, this is kind of funny
because when the spirit beings become humans, when they enter
into the bodies. Yeah, alohem caused them to forget their
prior existence, which is like, why would they have gone
along with this plan to begin with. Yeah, it's just
it's a stupid plan. It's like, hey, I'm gonna put
you into bodies. It's gonna suck, but I'm gonna make
you forget everything about your previous celestial existence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. It's like a black mirror, the
new black mirror is coming out. But yeah, it's funny.
Shout out to Sam Shimun. So the consequence of all
these views is eternality of all things. There's no distinction
between a creator who's eternally uncreated and a creature a
creature essentially, that's a massive distinction, at least in this
cartoon that I've seen. Yeah, so that's the there's no
distinctions ultimately between these things. So so what is there?
Speaker 1: Uncreated matter? And there's uncreated beings, many of them they
evolve in it, create new infinite.
Speaker 2: Intellect, you said, right, the eternal intellec.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's all of their teaching, but
at least one of the Mormon apologists was saying that
that which is again a neoplatonic kind of idea of
an eternal emanation from the one that's the ones intellect.
So there's these eternal beings that go through these cycles.
I like the infinite regress of cosmic daddies. But that's
not the only reason. It's politistic. There's also eternal prima material.
Prime matter is eternal. Mormonism officially rejects creation x nilo,
which there's multiple Biblical texts, by the way, which teach
x neila. Now, the reason that's interesting is that if
you bring up Second maculb Be seven to twenty eight,
Hebrews eleven, Colossians one, eighteen, Hebrews one, John one one
to three, all of which teach creation x nilo, Mormons
will say, oh, but yeah, but that's the Bible's wrong,
that those are all corrupted.
Speaker 2: Just like the just like the Muslims.
Speaker 5: Yeah, all the Great Heavenly Council meeting. Both of Eloheim's
eldest sons were there. Lucifer and his brother Jesus, bros.
Speaker 2: They're bros, Jay, They're bros. That anything.
Speaker 1: The Mormon Jesus there looks like I'm trying to figure
out he looks like somebody on the Internet that we've
interacted with. I don't know, it looks a little bit
like Rooche.
Speaker 2: Maybe, I don't know, Yeah, Rous, like when he's uh yeah,
when he did his final uh, that final video in
the desert where he talked.
Speaker 1: To yeah Jesus.
Speaker 5: A plan was presented to build planet Earth, where the
spirit children would be sent to take on mortal bodies
and learn good from evil. Lucifer stood and made his
bid or becoming savior of this new world. Wanting the
glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods.
Opposing the idea the Mormon Jesus.
Speaker 2: I like, oh, Jesus is just giggling at him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Mormon Jesus is hippie Jesus. Let him have.
Speaker 2: Real, force him the hacky sack you don't have, dad, he.
Speaker 5: Suggested, giving man his freedom of choice as on other planets.
The vote that followed approved the proposal of the Mormon Jesus,
who would become savior of the planet.
Speaker 2: I love the voting aspect of the cosmic eternal intellects
at the table where they're like, well here, democracy right,
democratic gods.
Speaker 5: Enraged, Lucifer cunningly convinced one third of the spirits destined
for Earth to fight with him and revolt. Thus Lucifer
became the devil, and his followers the demon sent to
this word, they would forever be denied bodies of flesh
and bone. Those who remained neutral in the battle were
cursed to be born with black skin.
Speaker 1: Oh this is.
Speaker 2: Jamn, he said it. Oh my goodness. So let me
get this straight. Is the one third thing politically derived?
Like you know, oh, one third of them voted for Jesus.
Speaker 1: No, that's from scripture. Scripture says a third of the angels.
Speaker 2: Felt okay, okay, So that's where I'm wondering, because I
was like, I was thinking of voting. I was like,
what a third of the Okay, at least that at
least they're they're pulling from something there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so the neutral what about that that added neutral?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 2: The neutral positions were just the blacks, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about that race element that the fallen
spirits are born as black people. Okay, Yeah, that's a
doctor that the doctrine that they've obviously shot away from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, specifically the neutral it's it's a punishment for being
neutral in this in this contr is the Mormon explanation
for the Oh damn.
Speaker 5: You see that the Negro race, the spirits that fought
most valiantly against Lucifer, would be born into Mormon families
un planet Earth. These would be the lighter skinned people
or white and delights them, as the Book of Mormon
described it.
Speaker 2: I love that, did you guys? Do you guys notice
that little smile? Yeah, that smile transition. I got to
remember that for future and skinned people or white, And.
Speaker 1: That's the part. It is actually better to be a
white and delightsome person like myself. So I can confirm
that this is true right of Mormon.
Speaker 2: So they, yeah, yeah, I've had white privilege in their doctors, right.
Speaker 5: Early Mormon prophets taught that Elohem and one of his
goddess wives came to as Adam and Eve to start
the human race. Thousands of years later, Elohem and human
form once again journey to Earth from the star based colomb,
this time to have sex with the Oh.
Speaker 2: Just so you guys understand what's happening. Their account of
Elohem is God the Father. He has a material body,
and he actually, with all of his power, he actually
took a cosmic.
Speaker 1: Uber to Earth from a star base. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've an approached approached the door to do
his deed here he had to do this.
Speaker 5: Part Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus, oh damn,
the physical body.
Speaker 2: All right, this is what's required.
Speaker 5: After Jesus Christ grew to manhood, he took at least
three wives, Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1: You know. One that's interesting too, is how similar the
SYS to Greek mythology. God father Eloheim is pretty much
acting like Zeus does with the human women that he
randomly just takes and has his way with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and every supposed really powerful god has another, a
dad god that proceeds probably keep crafting it forever because
they think it's you said, progression. It's regression too. At
the same time, they have it in both directions through
these wives.
Speaker 5: The Mormon Jesus, for whom Joseph Smith claimed direct descent,
supposedly fathered a number of children before he was crucified,
according to the book.
Speaker 2: Regelsa's Aryan Chosen Chosen Steens. That's funny Mormon.
Speaker 5: After his resurrection, Jesus came to the Americas to preach
to the Indians, who the Mormons believe are really Israelized,
thus the.
Speaker 1: Jesus mostly Worth noting here is that when Dan Brown's
stuff came out, if you recall pushing the idea that
Jesus had a wife or wives and children, that was
all pushed as part of the you know, holy Blood,
Holy Grail gnostic phenomenon in about two thousand and one
two three, when Dan Brown was super popular, there were
a prominent Mormons who were also supporting the thesis and
putting out information as well, because they believe the same
gnostic idea. It's an ancient gnostic heresy that Jesus also
had wives.
Speaker 2: Right. Interesting, It's like this guy was like super. I
wouldn't call him creative because he's just synthesizing a bunch
of things.
Speaker 1: But very Yeah, it's a wild synthesis for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like a lonely boy scout in the woods.
He's like just fantasizing about things. He's like super, He's
just at a creative process.
Speaker 1: It's like a sci fi nerd in the eighteen hundreds
out in the woods. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: Poemanism established his church in the Americas as he had.
Speaker 1: So wait are they whiter?
Speaker 2: So how do that. They're not even red like. So
I'm just wondering, how do they only make and white
and brown but they don't have these in betweens. They didn't.
I didn't think this.
Speaker 1: Through add in Palestine America?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know. Who are these people? Oh yeah,
by the way, they believe Wait, they believe Eden is
in New Jersey or was that Missouri is the Missouri?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 1: I think it is. There was a phase where they
believe that the new Millennial Kingdom and Temple was going
to be set up up there. Yeah hmhmm. And then
that has partly to do with the split between them
and Brigham Young.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I'm going for memory. I went at that long time.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Tartaria. Yeah, someone says that's what Tartaria is.
Speaker 3: That's funny.
Speaker 2: By the year, I think this is og rotoscoping, this animation.
Speaker 6: There are four hundred and.
Speaker 5: Twenty one AD the dark skinned Indian Israelites.
Speaker 2: There you go, Jay, he answered, it known.
Speaker 5: As leiman Nites had destroyed all of the white Nephites
and a number of great Bats.
Speaker 1: Wait, Jay, have we.
Speaker 2: Ever seen these hardcore Mormons debating the hardcore black Israelites
That would be kind of fun you should moderate a debate.
Speaker 3: Jay, Well, I.
Speaker 1: Didn't even think about that connection until the Mormon apologist
Robert Gerr came on and I was saying, yeah. He
was saying that, well, we're the Actually he says, I'm
from the tribe of Nephi or whatever he said. He
I don't know what he said, but I'm like, no,
you're not. You're like the Black hero Iselites.
Speaker 2: Wasn't he the kind of leading cutting edge Mormon apologists
too that you didn't even realize until laughter.
Speaker 1: He's a Mormon apologist. I don't honestly know who the
leading one is. I think Trent Morn debated the leading one,
but I'm not sure what that guy is. But one
of the other ones, who is a leading Mormon apologist,
did come on, and he had even worse arguments than
Robert Kerr.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, adults.
Speaker 5: The Knee Fights records were supposedly written on golden plates
and buried by Morona, the last living Nephite in the
Hill Camora. Fourteen hundred years later, a young treasure seeker
named Joseph Smith who was known for his tall tales.
Speaker 2: So he was known for his tall Now obviously we
would you know, we agree with that, but that if
that's well poisoning. I thought that was kind of cool
that they threw that in. He's known for his tall tale.
That means that there might be some evidence maybe you know,
of where maybe there's some lost text that he wrote
that just wasn't included in Mormonism. That was just as crazy.
It just happened to be his Tuesday. You know, he
wrote it down.
Speaker 1: He was like, idea, there used to be an old
YouTube channel, believe it or not, that was devoted to
old Mormon texts and they had a vast library and
series of videos about the influence of ritual magic texts
in Joseph Smith. But that channel is along gone. But
that is you're correct, that is there.
Speaker 2: Awesome, We're at twenty five to fifty. I'm going to
keep the goals going for you guys. You don't know.
I will be splitting the super chats with Jay today
for his time and efforts here, and also if you
want to ask him a question directly, you can super
chat and I'll read it to him as well. So
there you got there.
Speaker 5: You go claim to have uncovered these same gold plates
nearest home in Upstate New York.
Speaker 1: That's where I'm from.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean not technically, I mean I'm not like Buffalo,
but I did know this part until this cartoon. By
the way, that he found this stuff in upstate New York,
where I want to know where he's like, where exactly.
Speaker 5: He is now honored by Mormons as a prophet because
he claimed to have had visions from the spirit world
in which he was commanded to organize the Mormon Church
because all Christian creeds were an abomination. It was Joseph
Smith who originated most of these peculiar doctrines which millions
today believe to be true.
Speaker 2: And you read at least skimmed to some high detail
through some of these jay for on our behalf, because
we're not going to do it.
Speaker 1: I did years ago when I was actually supposed to
debate Mitt Romney's Faith and Values guy. So there's a
guy named Justin Hart who's a famous he used to apologetics.
I don't think he does anymore, and he was going
to be Mitt Romney's faith and values guy. And we
organized the public debate we were going to do, and
I spent two weeks studying those texts as well as
there's a guy named Talmadge, who's their systematic theologian. They
have the Actually I was systematic theologian and he backed
out right at the end, so there never was a debate.
Speaker 2: Well that's too bad, was the a Is there ever
a kind of reality in the past where even Jay
Dyer at some age could have been drawn into Mormonism?
Speaker 1: Well, I will say that when I first started reading
the Bible, when I was like eighteen or nineteen, I
definitely was challenged both by Joe's Witnesses and Mormons and
a lot of things I didn't know the answers to.
So again, remember these kinds of groups and sects, they
rely a lot on ignorance and uneducated people. And you'll notice,
for example, like Joe's Witnesses, they do very well recruiting
people in shall we say, poorer neighborhood goods and third
world countries, just like Islam. So they thrive on that.
And I would say that, Yeah, I remember the first
time I ever got challenged by somebody. It was witness
girl and she was trying to argue that Jesus isn't divine,
there's no Trinity. I was new to reading the Bible,
and I didn't know what to say to her, and
so that actually kind of prompted me studying the Bible. So,
I mean, I guess there was a possibility that at
one point I could have been duped to as anyone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look at that too. I look at how
people recruit, even in Protestantism. You know, they had the
Starbucks and the concerts, and they have all the modern amenities,
and when you compare it to say Orthodoxy, it's never
the amenities that's pulling. You know, you wouldn't want that
to be the case anyway, but it's never those things
that pull people in, and it just happens to be
I would say, a little more snobbery, and necessarily so
that people are actually thinking about the theology and its
coherence as well as the practice. They're not thinking about
whether or not there's going to be like an epic
based solo at liturgy. And so it's kind of like
it's been this thing on the internet, especially like I've
heard people go, well, we got to get better at
quote recruiting, but better recruiting the way it looks is
appealing to these things. So it's kind of like this
double edged sort of like well, you don't want to
appeal to those things because that's not what you're selling, right.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, One thing I'd like to say that's really
important here is that this illustrates the importance of logic
and critical thinking, because people who think the debate's bad
or that you shouldn't care about that, If you don't
care about that, if you don't think that it's worthwhile,
you don't have any way to delineate between our position
is Orthodox and the Muslim and the Mormon, because the
Muslim and the Mormon rely on very bad, low tier
argumentation to convince many, many, many uneducated simple people, and
so you have to have some degree of critical thinking
and identifying the big errors and mistakes and fallacies in
these systems that invalidate them, or else there's no appeal
that you have that's any better than anyone else. If
we shouldn't debate and we shouldn't utilize critical thinking, then
what's going to stop people from saying, well, the Mormons
are nice to me, They invite me to their stuff,
they're friendly to me, they bring me over for dinner,
they offer me, you know, pizza, Knights and Family Fund,
Funk City, whatever they have and so this is why
it's so important that you have to have this element
and you can't rely on the feelies. And they literally do.
They say you'll have the burning in your bosom. It's
part of their doctrine is that when you pray and
ask about the Book of Mormon, you'll feel this burning
in your bosom and you'll know deep down by your
feelies that it's right. Yeah, and it.
Speaker 2: Wasn't hot extra high talkies, right hot talkies. Well, like
when I've critiqued George Jenko and everyone he pulls onto
that show. It's very much feelings driven as well, which
is why there's such a wide space for females to
sit to sit in on those conversations. And that's very
appealing and palpable and accessible to a certain generation of
people who have like proclivities towards like I want to
feel good, Like if if I don't feel good, how
could it be God? How could I need to feel
that thing? And and it's honestly, without debate about their uh,
you know, their their theology as a whole, you can't.
You don't want to combat good feelings and say, well
we have a better feeling.
Speaker 1: That's not we can't do that.
Speaker 2: We can't say, well, our feelings are better than yours,
we have actually more full feelings. You know, we're we're
not even engaging in the same argument at that point.
You know that we're our standard isn't the feelings at all,
So you wouldn't We're not going to participate in that.
Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder.
Speaker 2: Jay sometimes when debate, when you know a debate an
effort toward a debate is fruitful, or when you know
it's a waste of time ultimately and you have to
go out at the person at a different way, like
from a different angle. I wondered at myself.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's actually a really good question,
because I woke up actually thinking about this, Like, what
what value is trying to even do debate in a
in a society and a culture that is extremely I
wouldn't say uneducated, but they're like hyper educated in very
niche areas and they don't know basics about critical thinking
or you know, anything like that. But I think it
does ultimately help to, you know, to the portion of
the population that is open to being corrected or open
to the truth. Remember, a lot of these cults do
not pull people in on the basis of philosophy, justification
for their principles, you know, critical thinking. It's almost always recruiting,
like all co leaders do, weak damaged people, you know
what I mean. Think of till Swan, right, til Swan's
whole thing with her cult is that she baptizes people
into their trauma so that they can be resurrected out
of their trauma through her. And when you listen to
her talk to her people and her audience, they're all
just obviously very damaged, psychologically weak people, and a narcissistic
psychopath like Joseph Smith or Teal Swan can pray on that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, it's a lot I've even done in my
twenties mid twenties, like a lot of self help stuff.
It's structured exactly the same way they you know, they
break you down psychologically. They do some sort of inverted
perverse sort of confession style where you air all of
your your your items, so to speak. And then once
you're broken down fully, then through the work or whatever
they're gonna call the thing, right, they're gonna say, now
through this, you're you're gonna be essentially saved. They just
have a different term for what saved is they would
just say like revitalize, restore, transformed of something. They really
just change the process and the practice of a church
and the invert in really creative ways. But it's it's
like to someone who's ignorant, it's subtle, so they won't
really notice that. They'll just go this is good. I
like it, I feel good, my relationships are good. Now.
It's like it becomes a tool, well, a lot like
Jordan Peterson still at this point, who knows I believe
actually knows enough about the truth to make a choice,
a willful choice, and still sort of reserves this sort
of a Swiss army knife approach to Christianity where.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like the best.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, it's like I hope I meet
him one day and I could, you know, push him,
nudge him a little bit further, but.
Speaker 1: Who knows well, And it's like a guy was saying
to me on Twitter today, He's like, well, you know
Mormons this that, but you know they have the same
basic Christian principles. No again, this is again, this is
their pr The way that the Mormons do pr is
to present themselves as one of amongst the many Christian denominations,
and through sort of presumed the humanism, we can all
kind of find commonalities. There's no commonalities in a system
that's insane. Polytheistic bears no similarity whatsoever to what we
as Orthodox Christians believe. Remember, cults thrive on word, concept, fallacies,
and ambiguities. And so they will say to you, we
believe in the three God, the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Spirit. We believe they have a kind of unity,
and we believe that they are helpful and useful in
our salvation. Right, and then when you ask them really
what those things mean, I mean's nothing like what we
would believe.
Speaker 2: Right, just use the word include everybody who assigned, who
associates to that word, and go well, of course, like
the same thing with Christ. I believe there's a guy
my server, he said, I believe in the Christ. Anytime
someone puts that the before, I'm like, you know, red flag.
This is just like this ambiguous sort of consciousness that
you close your eyes and try to engage with, and
you just call it like the God Whisper or something
like that, right exactly, And maybe that's answers further, Like
I asked before, why is it Mormonism sort of sits
just outside the sort of panel debate sphere. And I
think what you're saying is what it is is that
at least even Trinitarians who know what they mean by trinitarian,
who who might have a bunch of things wrong, you
could at least go, Okay, you're arguing for a trinitarian
position and you're not totally inverting what it's meant by
a trying God. Whereas the mortgage you are, like, we
can't even include them in the in the debate, it's
like it's like apples and oranges, Whereas it's like within
orthodoxy debates with heterodoxy, it's like a it's like a
ripe orange with like a slightly discolored, blemished orange. At
least there you can call them similar things. Whereas Mormonism,
as as we continue this cartoon, is is a wild approach.
Speaker 5: By maintaining a rigid code of financial and moral requirements,
and through performing sacred temple rituals for themselves and the dead,
the latter day saints hope to prove their worthiness and
thus become gods.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, we need Europe because they didn't include this,
but you probably know more than most about what what
are these rituals?
Speaker 1: Jay, Well, this is an element that I think does
perhaps in some way appeal to some people in the
West who, through their low church Baptist, Congregationalists, Charismatic, Pentecostal,
you know, Church of Christ, Bible belt tendencies, have a
very low view of rituals and ritualism. And so because
Mormonism does re interject a lot of this sort of
temple ritual mysticism, ceremonies, things that are tossed out by
a lot of the Radical Reformation tradition, that might be
an element that appeals to people too who don't know
anything about religion and are new to this, and they say, well,
I look at the Old Testament, I see God has
this temple and he's got these rituals, and I look
at the Protestant churches and there's none of that. So
my Mormon church has this priesthood and they actually believe
in like an continued ironic Melchizedekian type priesthoods. They believe
in these Apostolic successors, right, so they have this facsimile
of early Judeo slash Christian principles. I'm not talking about
Judeo Christianity. I know that that's not a thing. I'm
just saying, like, what the early Hebrew religious tradition had
in terms of the temple and the synagogue, what the
early Church had in terms of adopting that temple synagogue model.
They're actually kind of hitting on something that's missing in
a lot of the low Church stuff that may appeal
to people. However, this is actually an admission in our
favor that this never went away, the Apopolic succession, the altar,
the Orthodox Christian temples, all of those things, the eucharistic sacrifice,
the communion with those that have gone on, we pray
for the dead. All that already exists in the Orthodox Church.
Speaker 2: So it's like they invert some of the truth, but
do they add anything in ritualistically that's just.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm pretimasonic essentially. So a lot of these
temple rituals are directly borrowed from Joseph Smith's time in freemasonry. Gotcha, Okay.
Speaker 5: The Mormons teach that everyone must stand at the final
judgment before Joseph Smith, the Mormon Jesus and.
Speaker 1: Those Mormons.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, they don't have that the Mormon. I
like how they just said the Mormon Jesus.
Speaker 1: But they apparently believe that the Holy Spirit will also
eventually become flesh. So oh interesting, that's a Mormon. So
everything that exists in spirit wants to be flesh so
that they can become uh, you know, so they can
get late. I guess, I guess.
Speaker 2: I mean that's what's weird, is like the desire for
the eternal, eternally uncreated is become matter so that it
could eventually transcend matter.
Speaker 1: Apparently they think that matter is just a more sublime
version of spirit. Her spirit is matter, I should say,
so they think that spirit is another kind of matter.
And I'm sure there's probably underlying dualism there that there's
some tension because if spirit is a more sublime form
of matter, why would spirit want to become matter. I
don't know, because it's all because of Coomb pods, it is,
And I know people are looking for these really, you know,
like that simple It's like, what's the metaphysical principles behind
their view of uncreativity. It's just a sex goal, man,
What are you thinking? It's just it's a sex goal man,
it's not metaphysics. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes we give people too much charity. We're like, well,
let's just yeah, exactly, well, let's look into the deep
aspects of their you know. No, sometimes it's just.
Speaker 5: That the eternal marriage ceremony expect to become polygamous gods
in the celestial Kingdom, rule over other planets, and spawn
new families throughout eternity. The Mormons thank God for Joseph Smith,
who claimed that he had done more for us than
any other man, including Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't actually know that. I didn't know they
went that far more, including Jesus Christ. But then they're like, wait, wait,
Jesus Christ, from your view, was there before the Well, no,
he must have been a man. This is so confusing, dude.
If they think that the gods were once men, but
then the celestial gods made spirit babies who then became men.
Were those spirit babies once men also before they become spirit?
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if they were all gods? I'm
not sure.
Speaker 5: Wow. The Mormons believed that he died as a martin,
shed his blood for us so that we too may
become gods.
Speaker 6: Although there are thousands of Mormon churches throughout the world.
There are only a few dozen Mormon temples. These men
ass of structures play a vital role in the Mormons
quest for Godhood. Mormons must engage in a series of
occultic rituals inside the temple in order to.
Speaker 2: Be I have to I'll read.
Speaker 1: Notice that the temple literally copy paste Masonic symbols.
Speaker 2: Right right, All their symbols are the same. Look, yep, yeah,
he's just I mean, he could have he could have
designed a little differently, like you can you can steal
someone's song and the chords, but at least change the lyrics.
He's not even changing much of the lyrics at all.
Justin Nley says, I have I'll read all of these
at the end, but I just thought this was funny.
Justin says, for five dollars, it's not a sex cult.
J soaking is not sex j Okay soaking. That's where
they move the bed around, Jay so that they so
you're not actually doing it right, premarital sex. This is
a thing Jay, they to avoid premarital sex. They basically
it's very Jewish by the way, like it's like where
not working. I'm not exerting energy. They the people lay
on top of each other, right, do the mechanics of sex,
but they don't move. They friends shake the bed for them,
and so they're it's not considered doing the work.
Speaker 1: So that's very that's like you know workaround right, Like,
I mean, I think people should keep in mind that
there is this sort of probably cabalistic element in the
Joseph Smith ideology from Masonry and from Neoplatonism. And I
wouldn't be surprised given this claim of being the you
know lost tribes of Israel.
Speaker 2: What just reading account zones that no thrusting, no lusting, right.
Speaker 1: Go on, No, I mean it's it's it's not surprising
to me given the elements of the Talmudick solomonic ideology
here that there's also some of the legalistic workarounds going
on here. Yeah, cults. Remember also, this is a principle
a lot of people forget about cults, is that even
Bible belt you know, fake you know Bible from for
religion people, they usually replace actual teachings about virtue and
vice that we have in the church. They usually replace
it with some weird legalism. Right, So Christianity becomes not
drinking enough smoking cigarettes like in the Bible belt, the
Holy Rollers in the Bible belt, right, So you're not
actually learning to tink commandments and cultivating the virtues and
trying to you know, stamp out the vices. You're engaging
in this pharasical sort of legalism about things that are
external and not the changing of the internal man. It's
just these stupid external legalities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, what didn't one of the Rockefellers. I
think one of the I think one of those guys
developed the sort of like dildonics or something where you
connect things to your computer where you're like, it's not
really I'm not doing anything here. It's the computer doing
all the work. It's the machine doing all the work.
That's such a good point. Where you're not healing the soul.
You're not you're not working on internally the healing spiritually.
You're fixing external problems and reorganizing matter so that it
doesn't look like you're doing the bad thing. It's just
a different way of doing it. It's almost like if it's.
Speaker 1: Like the Pharisees, you clean the externals, you washed the
pots and the externals the inside you're full of dead men's.
Speaker 2: Bones and yeah, yeah, it's uh. You see it ever,
you see it in a lot of places.
Speaker 6: Become a candidate for godhood, only an elite selection of
devout Mormons are allowed to enter. To do so, the
potential Mormon God must adhere to a strict code of ethics,
including abstinence from tobacco, caffeine based products, and paying a
full time to the Mormon Church and wearing of the
magic Mormon underwear twenty got him.
Speaker 2: On right now four hours a day.
Speaker 4: He has to receive a satisfactory interview from his bishop
and from his state president. There he's asked or she
has asked certain rather penetrating questions about their worthiness or morality.
If he's a full tithe payer, that is the only
way that we can be with our heavenly Father, Otherwise
we could not be in his presence.
Speaker 6: The motivation for the Mormon male to commit to such
requirements is the promise of endless celestial sex with thousands
of goddess wives, along with a personal planet to rule
and reign over. However, Mormon males who failed.
Speaker 1: With thousands of goddess wives. If you read the Greek
mythology about the goddesses. Yeah, Like, if you're worried about
putting up with polygamy and four or five wives, could
you imagine the power in the insanity of thousands of
chaotic goddess wives like Aphrodite and Hera. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: By the way, these images you can these are available
for n f.
Speaker 6: T over thousands goddess wives, along with a personal planet
to rule and reign over. However, Mormon males.
Speaker 1: Who anti ant bear pigs and that's a lot of
fail necessary.
Speaker 2: That's my favorite one right there. That's a really good one.
Speaker 1: Because have you do you remember enders game? M hm,
that's another Mormon written story too, because you have these
universe there's like a Mormon planet, a Catholic planet, and
a Protestant planet, and.
Speaker 2: They're all fighting each other, and does the Mormon one win?
I forget the results.
Speaker 1: I'd only read the first one in game. I don't
remember the other one. I read the other ones.
Speaker 6: The sary requirements risk being castrated upon their entrance.
Speaker 2: To heaven, so you can I didn't know that parts
get your bill cut your cosmic junk off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, oh.
Speaker 4: Man, See why the temple is so important to the
Latter day saint, because if he is worthy to go
on to the Temple and there receive the sacred ordinances
and covenants and keep them, he can eventually grow into
becoming a God himself.
Speaker 2: Tell me who God the Father is to you?
Speaker 1: He is like you and I every human being on
the face of the earth.
Speaker 7: Oh is he a man?
Speaker 1: Yes? He is?
Speaker 8: How did he get to be God?
Speaker 1: That's like, that's a great moment right there. One thing
I would add to is that remember that their conception,
which they actually try to appeal to Orthodox people all
the time, when they hear us talking about deification of diosis,
they think that it's the same type of idea. And
I don't know what they're going for is a ritual
magic approach to apotheosis where you literally become God the
Father on another planet with celestial wives. That is not
the Orthodox teaching of theosis or becoming like God by
participation on created grace. So remember, Mormons believe in this
very externalist, works based salvation where they're attaining the merits
to become some sort of apotheosized human God. It is
not the Orthodox doctrine of participating in immortality and grace
as an energy to become like.
Speaker 2: God, right, and that other distinction of like if if God,
God has a nature and the nature of God is eternal,
if you become God, but you're already eternal, You've already
obtained a type of God nature anyway, So they would
have to have this subcategory.
Speaker 1: It's like a spectrum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, spectrum. Yeah, it's a spectrum of God. But
they couldn't tell you what it was, right.
Speaker 1: The Asperger spectrum of godhood where you're like, I'm like
an eighty seven God. I cannot wait to be ninety
percent God in five years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so bizarre.
Speaker 1: You're like, well, how is the This is a classic
metaphysical problem for any kind of polytheistic type position. It's like,
how do you split up an apportion godhood? Right? I mean,
if the divine nature is non participable and simple and
as we believe, is orthodox and one, then there's no
fifty percent divine nature, there's no eighty six percent divine nature.
It doesn't have parts to it.
Speaker 2: Right, right, doesn't. Yeah, so they would they're basically have
to appeal to splitting God up into particulars and choosing
which particulars we they believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, God Father God, the Father Elohem, Jesus and the
Spirit are literally three discrete, distinct, different, separate gods.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they don't solve they don't solve this problem
of the you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you mentioned the trinity, they'll say, well,
we believe in a kind of a version of that.
But they're just one in that in that they have divinity. Yeah,
so it's no different than like Zeus and you know,
Athena or whatever.
Speaker 2: Do they have a view that you have to died
then as human to become like the human father, who's
also has a body.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I'm not sure he has the best.
I gotta I gotta listen. Listen to this every human
being on the face of the earth.
Speaker 2: Oh is he a man?
Speaker 1: How did he get to be gone?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, I should blow a bubble with
my gum right now.
Speaker 1: He's perfect.
Speaker 2: He's perfect, and every just regurgitate, right. So that's a
killer Wow. Whoever the chick was who asked that, that's
that's a killer question right there, because if you can't
answer that question, I mean, that's pretty much the the
defeater to the whole view. In addition to everything else.
Speaker 1: That's well Smith adding himself to Genesis fifty to predict himself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, that's uh, that was one. Now
you sent me two others. There's a there is a
call up Colobe and the Earth, which we'll uh examine here.
But let's let's look through some super chats first. So
we caught up and we'll move on. Justin Henley two dollars?
Speaker 1: Are you obs? Using obs?
Speaker 2: Using obs only as a oh, you're asking me for
I got to figure out Justph maximum five dollars JB
and Dyer by Fire Dyer. Thank you so much for that,
Sean says, Smith translated and dated the Book of Abraham.
Quote it was actually the Book of the Dead, a
pagan text with horse.
Speaker 1: You want to well, this one is new to me
that somebody pointed out the other day that one of
their one of their references, this so called Book of Abraham,
is just another copy and paste job that he sort
of ripped. So there seems to be a lot of
copy and pasting going on with Joseph Smith. Yeah, Jube
says for five dollars.
Speaker 2: Since Mormonism is a hodgepodge of ancient heresies, do you
think we could say that they have the most heresy
arch succession.
Speaker 1: Well, I would say no, just because you can find
you know, the Assyrian Church of the East, or you know,
people who are continued in historians who have Apostolic succession
quote unquote, So I would say that's more of a
heresyarch succession. Mormonism is just more like a uh it's
it's like a polytheistic pagan system with a Christian veneer.
And so I wouldn't even say it's even Christian. It's
just it's just a week just it's a sci fi
Greek polytheistic scam. I don't know what else to call it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's bizarre. That's why it's.
Speaker 1: At least in Islam you have like centuries of Muslims
doing debates and being interested in logic.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, I mean, I think Islam is
is a you know, pretty.
Speaker 1: Goofy It's got a lots to it, had deaths, but
you've at least had you know, Arabist Islamic philosophers and
theologians and logicians, and at least Islam is not as
wild as this is. This is just wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like the liberties that Joseph Smith took.
He could have just not appealed to the Bible at
all and just made up an entirely new completely which
is it's close.
Speaker 1: To well, but remember think about the eighteen hundreds. If
you want to draw away people from you know, uneducated
idiot people from Baptists and Presbyterian churches and and Congregational churches,
you need to utilize the King James because that's what
they were using. By the way, write the Book of
Mormon in King James, which is funny. Yeah, why would
the Book of Mormon be translated into you know, King
James in the in the eighteen hundreds. But but yeah,
so it's it's it's wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is ortho Joe nineteen ninety nine just want
to tell you and Jay that you guys are the
best and funniest debaters on the internet right now. Thank
you so much for that. I appreciate that. Joe deut
Joel for ninety nine says, cheers, Jay and Jim Bob.
What are your takes on prophetic YouTube channels? Kingdom marriage
prophecies and YouTube are uploaded daily, div Rev. I don't
follow much. You cover some of these well.
Speaker 1: I just did a video where we outlined. I'm gonna
clip it because I think I made it a members talk,
but I spent about ten to fifteen minutes in the
Megachurch Madness Part two, I covered the finality of divine
revelation and when we when we understand those passages in
those texts, this cuts off any cult. So, whether it's Mormons,
or whether it's Charismatics, whether it's Muslims, any cult premised
on new revelations that supersede or correct or change or
reject the previous are immediately disqualified.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because, in other words, the faith being revealed and
it becoming a part of the reality, hard reality.
Speaker 1: That is, once we're all delivered. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's nothing new to there's nothing new to
do or to figure out. But all of these people
in these channels are doing all of this work and
trying to figure out the decoding. Right, it's like a
massive it's nosis. And if you really.
Speaker 1: Anybody from anybody from the outset claiming to speak from
the Holy Spirit and predict the future or any of
that is immediately disqualified as a fraud. Yeah. There are
no more prophets like the Old Testament prophets, and that
actually is relevant to Mormonism, because when Jesus says that
in Luke sixteen sixteen, he says the law and the
prophets were until John. Since that time, the Kingdom is
preached and people are pressing into it. So the Kingdom
of God is what the prophets were looking forward to.
When the Messiah comes, the kingdom is here. It's the Church.
He identifies the church as the kingdom in Matthew sixteen.
So the idea that there would be this ongoing office
of an Old Testament prophet is automatically excluded. And in fact,
we know that Joseph Smith understood that because he changed
Luke sixteen sixteen to not say that. It's reads totally
different because he needs to be a continuation of an
Old Testament prophet, just like Muhammad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what would be the difference with someone Let's
say they have like a YouTube thing and they and
they start sort of looking at reality and trying to
measure it against scripture, and they make they're not making predictions,
but they're maybe making making an analysis of let's say
end times in general, just end times, you know, closer
to the end of humanity or whatever. It's true that
even in a let's say an Orthodox priest could do
that kind of thing. Right, they're not making new predictions,
but they're doing like some sort of general analysis of
where we are right now. But there, but the difference
would be correct me if I'm wrong. They wouldn't make
declarative statements of fact about where we are.
Speaker 1: So if an elder or someone has clairvoyance or they
see something that's coming, it's not on the same level
as public divine revelation. And we know that because well,
first of all, the faith was once for all delivered
to the Saints when John the Apostle died. There's no
more public divine revelations. It's done, it ceased. Yeah, and
that's why even at the end of the Book of Revelation,
providentially it says you can't add to this text. There's
no new public revelations. So when you get acumenical councils,
for example, they're not adding new divine revelations. They're explicating
what was already there, this body of teaching, this fixed
body of doctrines that the Apostles hand down, which is
the absolute faith what Jude says was once for all delivered,
So it can't be altered. It doesn't get new updates,
it doesn't get new downloads, it doesn't get there's no
new prophetic voices, because we know that was already condemned
in the second century, because there was a guy named
Montanus who was the charismatic of the second century, and
he said, I'm the voice of the Holy Spirit. I
have new revelations like in the Book of Acts, which
will now guide the church as a kind of direct
prophetic guidance. And Montanus was immediately condemned. In fact, it's
one of the reasons that Turtolian is not a saint
is that he left the church to become a montonist,
and so this is a you know, famous reason why
he's just a patristic writer and not a saint. He
became a heretic and schismatic, unfortunately. But the conbination of
Montanism shows that first second, third century Church had already
rejected this idea of ongoing public divine revelation, and thus
this immediately cuts out anything to do with cults. But
that's different than somebody like, you know, if you go
meet your confessor, or you go meet some elder on
Mount Athos and they have a sense about you, and
they know you know something clairvoyant about you. That's something
between you and him. It's a spiritual gift. It's not
something that like the church says, oh we got a.
Speaker 2: New epistle to add to the New Testament, right yeah,
totally yeah, yeah, So it sounds like there's some key distinctions.
There's explication versus some having an epiphany which could be
right or wrong, versus some type of clairvoyance, which would
be one to one that that scale, versus someone claiming
revelation itself.
Speaker 1: You can have a public divine revelation, right with the
depth of John the Apostle. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So some people try to maybe falsely explicate something
and then they maybe try to transform it into some
sort of public revelation or prophecy, and they just go
run with it, as opposed to someone who's just just
looking at it and going, oh no, we're just we're
deciding what this means here. We're not declaring the entailment
of the future here with some sort of prediction. And
it's those predictors that you watch out for, right, like
whether they're the Jamatria Tards or or these people. Douy Joel,
thank you for your Super.
Speaker 1: Bowl, even an Orthodox Monaska if they claim to have
visions like we already have the rule laid down Douai thirteen,
Dourami eighteen Galatians one. It's not that like you don't
get to It's not like a you know, nine out
of ten, like you got to get.
Speaker 2: Them all right.
Speaker 1: It like if you don't get one of them right,
you're disqualified. Gotcha. That's the rule according to scripture for
a quote prophet. And even if a saint or an
elder somebody to predict something accurately about the future, it's
still not public divine revelation. Mmm, gotcha, anymore than any
more than you would listen to any other person in
the church, a priests or whoever who's talking about, you know,
his opinion of the end times. It's not equivalent to
divine revelation. That's interesting.
Speaker 2: It actually brings up like how in a future perhaps
where enough data input can increase the level of predicted predictability,
for in so far as certain things are concerned, if
people are going to appeal to AI's ability to predict
to some more vast extent, and they'll they'll try to
present it more like through a theological view. I feel
like that might be inevitable to some extent where they
take the AI the new King Solomon, if you will,
that knows all, it's given, all the wisdom, that's given
every all the information, and it spits out these sort
of predictive models that end up being predictive enough for
ordinary humans who don't have a theological basis to adopt
it as the new one because it's like it's so smart, right.
Speaker 1: Well, in Zardas, that's how the AI computers work. They
have a predictive future models and that's what they do.
So absolutely, yeah, I think it would fall for.
Speaker 2: That for sure, but that would like lend itself to
some sort of more of a determinist view of humans,
which that would be a We're already in the horror
of people believing strict materialists Germanism.
Speaker 1: I mean, just well, look at what Paul says, which
is very applicable to Mormonism, right. Paul says, even if
an angel from heaven comes and preaches a different teaching
from what I've laid down in my apostolic writings and
oral teachings, you don't listen to them even if they appear,
which is almost perfectly aligns with Mohammed and Joseph Smith
because they both claim an angel visitor came and told
them this new revelation. Right, and yet Paul is saying,
even if you have an angelic visitation, you don't listen
to it if it deviates from what I have handed
down to you. So if Galatians one is true, there
cannot be new, additional corrective revelations down the road. Got you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's pretty strict. It's pretty constrained. Montana Moser
five dollars. I went to the Mormon church and nothing
was said about the Book of Mormon. I don't even
remember seeing any there, like any of the actual.
Speaker 1: Well, this is the technique that Colts do, just like
even Islam does this, right. They preach it publicly as
a very simple message. Right. The last we had with
Daniel Haikikachu, he was saying, look how simple Islam is,
basic principles. God's just won It's simple. The simplicity is
what God would want for a religion for all peoples.
It's simple. And then once you're involved in it. Oh,
by the way, you also got to believe all these
crazy hadiths. Mormonism does the same thing. They're not going
to tell you the crazy stuff when they meet you
on the street. M they're wait until you're roped in,
invested in it sunk and cost fallacy. Now you got
to believe all the crazy stuff, right right? Scientology same way. Similar, Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Have to actually work your way up. That's it's actually,
it's actually it seems to be that you you not
only are exposed to the wacky stuff later, but the
way it structures is that is that you actually earned
the wacky stuff. So you're actually invested in the wacky stuff, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just like scientology, you're also paying a significant
amount of money to get to that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're invested so it won't occur wacky. I mean,
anything you you pay for, you're already setting yourself up
for a bias toward the thing you're paying for. It
happens all the time when we buy crappy items, we
try to convince ourselves, well, maybe it's not that, Maybe
it's exactly I got it from Instagram. It looked cool.
Speaker 1: Crash Man five.
Speaker 2: I remember hearing that Mormonism used to teach that non
white people are the children of sin. Yeah, we included
that in the h in the cartoon there, and that
is why they are not white. Now, Jay I was
asking early on, are there now new iterations of Mormonism
who are trying to move away from these kind of
crazy these kind of more crazy takes we saw in
the cartoon.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the main line Mormon LDS people
are becoming more left, more woke, more rebranded against that stuff.
But as far as I know, it's all still there.
But there are Mormon splits and sects, right.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: The fundamentalist Latter Day Saints with that crazy, very fed
looking dude. What was that guy's name, Jeff Jeffers, Jeffries.
You know what I'm talking about. The cult he created,
his compound, the guy that did all the what was
a Jim Cavizel human trafficking movie, Sounded Freedom that was
done by a split off Mormon sectarian guy. Hm, that's he.
It's based on him. Interesting the character, right, So uh,
they believe in his group in like new prophetic revelations
that like fix the mainline Mormon problems. So you see
how this is like a never ending infinite regress of
new profits that can correct the mistakes of yesteryear's profits.
Speaker 2: That makes me wondrous inside Mormonism. Is it even possible
for a new profit that they wholly appealed to, that's
that supersedes Joseph Smith to a higher extent. What would
that What would be required for that to happen?
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I mean it would it would
be like the papacy having a pope, you know, basically
saying Frank was a heretic by the way he's out
mm hmm. I mean it would immediately cause a pretty
significant contradictory tension. I don't know, I don't know how
they can. I mean, it seems logical if you can
have a new profit that corrects the previous ones. Yeah,
it happens. It like it immediately would invalidate all that
came before.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's split. It It would cause like whatever
you would call a schism and Mormonism and.
Speaker 1: Some warn jet that's the guy that had his compound
and he had like, I don't know, forty Prairie muffin wives.
Just do you remember him?
Speaker 2: I remember that name.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's a Mormon split. That's like traditional holding
to all the previous Mormon teaching. But to me, that
looked like a mind control fed operation.
Speaker 2: It's also harder probably to do what Joseph Smith did
then now with all the tech and cross referencing capabilities,
even though people are just as dumb. I think, like
you said, why does this stuff work? Because people start,
instead of broadly looking at a worldview and obtaining information
and cross referencing in a in a holistic way, they
they isolate myopic things and they focus in on these
like these like very specialized views of things, so they
don't have like, they don't have the capacity, so they
fall into wacky positions. But if someone came along and
took another position like Joseph Smith and started saying things,
it just seems that whatever is said, it's gonna be
harder for people to believe it, just like wholesale because
of the ability to like at least question it a
little bit more with with access to information and stuff,
but they didn't have as much of that, I suppose,
Jason Castle, thank you so much, Tim Buck says Jimbob
and Jay, how dare you attack the man the myth
Joseph Smithy. Joseph Smithy, he is our special boy. I
seen the Golden tablets. They are pretty Yeah, been five dollars.
I really want to hear Jabe talk about Jehovah witnesses.
Sometime dated a girl who broke out of it and
she told me in seeing things they did. Yeah, I'm
sure Jay, you covered that probably multiple times as well well.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are similar similarities, but they're more of
a just more of an anti Trinitarian focused sect. That is,
actually it's polytheistic as well, because they think Jesus is
a god, which is polytheism. But Charles tays Russell was
also influenced by masonry. He was interested in Enochian magic. Yeah,
so there was an occult element there with him, as
well as Joseph Smith. But I think more interesting than
that is the multiple times that Joe's witnesses have predicted
in the world I've been wrong. So remember, if you
fail in your predictions, you're a false prophet. That's on me.
Thirteen did around me eighteen Glatians one make it very
clear you don't get to like get second chances right
with prophetic predictions and claims. And then one of the
times that they predicted it, that guy named Judge, Judge,
whatever his name is, always forget his name, but he
took all their money and built himself like multimillion dollar
San Diego estate. So it's called Beth Saram. It's still there.
Speaker 2: Interesting, he still operates a thing and he just you know,
he's long dead.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying the house is still there if you
look at best there.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Interesting, and it's not like super super fancy, but I
mean it was enough that like he said, oh, I'm
building this a state because when David and Moses come
like they needed a nice place to say.
Speaker 2: M right, makes sense. Yeah, uh seems legit. Where do
I sign up? That's funny, Keenan tain't nothing for ninety nine.
This is basically the same thing as he man. Well,
it's the same animation they got. The same man made her.
Speaker 1: Apparently, which Judge Rutherford, excuse me, he built in nineteen
twenty nine, this Beth Saram estate for Abraham and the
other resurrected patriarchs to live in the end of the world.
What's that? So? I mean that right there should cancel up.
Speaker 2: I wonder is there a famous person who bought it up?
Speaker 1: Bought it up the estate. I think it's just owned
by like a normal San Diego Now, I mean, if
you look at it now. It's not like I mean
that house, that house in San Diego is probably five
million dollars, ten million dollars. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nice house.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that was pretty fancy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean worthy of of of the What did
you say, who was going to visit and occupy?
Speaker 1: He says. In nineteen eighteen, Watchtower publications began to predict
the end of the world. Judge Rutherford, he's kind of
the successor after Charles J's. Russell said that these Old
Testament princes would be resurrected in nineteen twenty five and
come back to live. They needed someplace to live. This
included Moses, David Abraham and then when uh they didn't
come back, he lived there and then I think they
eventually just sold it to somebody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was assuming they were super materialistic. They
wanted like the chikoozies and you know, all the nice things.
Ben Fortnite, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, you're gonna put you can't put up plant stuff
on a holiday in dude, Come on, that's true.
Speaker 2: Blonds are overrated. If I wanted the data, super saying,
I would thank you so much. Ben Montana again with
the five dollars.
Speaker 1: Here's a bit more dough. Thanks for this, you guys.
Speaker 2: I was super zoomer kuomer doomer before you guys helped
me turning away from that.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: Uh Steve mcglove and two dollars. Origin of the star
seeds star seeds was I learned this from a TikTok
uh engagement I had with crystallogical and this other dude
that star seeds came from the Hopi tribe. I don't
know if that's true, but that's what he really gave
me a talking to that guy. He was like, no,
you are not star seed. That is a that is
a Hope tribe thing, not you.
Speaker 1: Well you know what, I bet you. There's an element
of Native American mythology on Joseph Smith too.
Speaker 2: All right, well he included them in the cartoon exactly. Well,
the Book of Mormon is their history. So yeah, interesting
justin Henley two dollars. Well, I'm converting to ladder or yeah,
to your later Arthur bros. He's converting. That's all it
took was that one cartoon. Posh redneck whatever that is
in uh Serbian weasel currency.
Speaker 1: I don't know. In Serbia, and Serbia they pay for
things with beer and cigarettes, so that's like one cigarettes
they do. Uh, you're just coping.
Speaker 2: All pre Constantine fathers talked about kolob hanky panky TM
and use the word thusly in English.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: Posh, thanks, posh, appreciate that. Tain't nothing another five bucks.
We need a Mormon video game. It could rival Zelda.
Well I thought about this, Jay, I was thinking of
all of like these wacky characters. I wouldn't do it
with like the True God, of course, who would be blasphemy.
But but like these characters like Joseph Smith and the
people who started you know, l Ron Hubbard, and you
make sort of a Mortal Kombat game right between them,
and they all have like featured things, and they say
certain phrases and they have certain moves.
Speaker 1: A heretic mortal Yeah, heretical combat so good.
Speaker 2: I just think that the the you'd get shut down
copyright likeness, Uh, you'd get you know, but such a
I just.
Speaker 1: Remember this is another testament, like just a little funny
tangent testament to it being polytheistic. In Battlestar Galactica, which
is a Mormon sci fi thing. The Cylons who are
the like AI robot clone entity. Sometimes eventually they become
what they look like humans, but they're they're AI bots.
The Cylons are Monotheists, and they're the bad guys. So
in the Mormon literature, the villains are Monotheists. Wow, I
didn't pay because Mormonism is right, So they admit it is.
Speaker 2: They don't even try to defend it to lump it
in with Christianity, they just admit it.
Speaker 1: In the Battlestar Galactica universe, not talking about Mormonism, but
in that narrative, which is written by Mormon, it's Mormon
theology in a literary way. The Cylons, who are the
AI bad guy villains, are monoth the villains of the Monotheists.
So they're programming the Mormons through their fiction. You know,
whenever you encounter Monotheists fellow Mormons, they're the bad guys,
just like the cylons.
Speaker 7: Yeah, every time, every time one plus one plus one
equals one or dude Ben four ninety nine, I thought
Lucifer was supposed to be look sexy.
Speaker 2: This dude looks like an in cell.
Speaker 3: What the hell?
Speaker 2: They're bros. Yeah, they're just brothers. You know Hippie Jesus
was all, Nah, can't force the odds, bro.
Speaker 1: One question I have is okay, so I admitted, if
Jesus is uncreated and Lucifer's brother is Lucifer also uncreated,
that's really weird.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that whole That whole thing is crazy. That's
why it's a We're the ones who are foolish to
take a philosophical approach. Jay, It's just all comes down
to Koman feeling feeling good, Kelly Silva nine j or Jimbob.
Have you seen the Netflix series called American Prime Evil?
Pretty interesting stuff. It's Mormons versus Christians in eighteen fifty seven.
Mormons kill a lot of people. I have that on
my thing to watch. I didn't wantch ame.
Speaker 1: You watched it. I haven't watched it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there's so much to review.
Speaker 1: Have you reviewed?
Speaker 2: I watched Heretic on the I went to Hawaii and
I watched it on the plane. I thought it was like,
I didn't know you did a review. I hope I
can take a look at that. But what did you
think of generally? If I missed your review? What was
your take on Heretic? That movie Oh, I liked it.
Speaker 1: I thought it was one of the better religious slash
cult type stories in a long time. It was a
little corny at the end, the twist about it maybe
being a simulation, but I liked that we kept being
led into different potential explanations multiple times over, so we
kind of were the detectives watching the movie along with
the girls and them having their worldview kind of deconstructed. Yeah.
I that it was really good. Yeah, I did too.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a good sign of it early
on was that they actually presented a negative aspect to
disbelief in God that that holds its own sort of
dogmatic consequences as well. It wasn't just straight up religion bad,
which it was more tilted. It's always tilted that way
religion bad generally speaking. But at least they got into
some off there.
Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 2: I actually missed the simulation nod I saw at the end,
not to spoil it, but it ended with like a
question of, well, maybe this stuff is real, maybe who knows, Like,
but what was the nod to I missus?
Speaker 1: Well, if you remember, like at one point when Hugh
Grant is presenting the different possibilities there's a reference to
simulation theory. Yeah, and then she remembers seeing a butterfly
at the window. And then her friend had said, well,
if I die, you know, I'll come back as a
butterfly or something like that. And then when she gets
out of the house, when she crawls out and she
sees the butterfly, and then like she blinks, and then
it's unclear if this is my interpretation, it was unclear
if the butterfly was never there, she just thought she
saw it. So is that arming? That?
Speaker 2: Oh that part I see, Yeah, there it.
Speaker 1: Was that his simulation theory is possibly the one, or
is it just simply saying that, No, her friend just
came back as a butterfly. So I don't I don't.
I mean, that's that maybe out there. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Justin Henley, who had abandoned Orthodoxy and went to Mormonism
during the stream, actually came back. Thanks so much for
making that so quick, Justin Ben four nine. Damn it,
that's actually compelling. Be right back on uncomping Mormon Yeah,
Chase Haggard Dollar ninety nine, Mormonism is nonsense. Want the
truth find uranchia?
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we haven't dealt with that in the past.
Speaker 2: Yes, Ben four ninety nine, bro who wrote this weird fanfic. Well,
it seems like it's more of a synthesis than writing,
isn't it. We're seeing that he's just drawing and then
kind of rephrasing things, but he didn't. Is there anything
he actually did the work of actually making up Jay?
Is there anything we can credit him for?
Speaker 1: Actually? Well, he has like sermons and stuff, And Smith's
sermons are useful because it's in those that he presents
things like clear anti trinitarian, you know, polytheism type stuff. Yeah,
and there's other contradictions too, like other other places they're
modalists and other times they're polytheists. So it's it's just
not it's not a consistent thing. They just kind of
make it up as they go, which is why you
can have Mormon prophets a few decades ago saying that
Caine is Bigfoot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my favorite. You guys in the chat, you
think we're joking. I Jay texted me this because I
was like looking for things. I'm doing an animation. I
want things to include mentioned. I was like, no, what, wait,
Kine is bigfoot?
Speaker 1: What and this is a pretty normal like many many
Mormons and ex Mormons have said, Yeah, we believe that
we were taught that way.
Speaker 2: Cryptic Kane, it's amazing. Justin Henley five dollars. Eloem just
behaves like the Greek pantheon. Zeus h. Jay mentioned that,
except with less shape shifting into goose goose before do
you mean goose?
Speaker 1: Goose means a goose because zs like like grapes as
as a goose.
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting, grapes is a goose. Wow, it's sounds like
another cartoon. Oh man, that's too accurate. Uh, have a
fly guy, twenty dollars. What about mixed races? Did I
try to switch sides at the last moment? Well you further,
I didn't confirm this, but they're only halfway new tool.
Hey you get baptized. Apparently you can baptize a black
person in Mormonism and they're no longer considered black. I
don't know how that works. Is that like a Truons
that's like similar to the Truns philosophy.
Speaker 1: But I didn't know that. That's great, there's no universe
about that. Oh, oh, do you're you know they have
that like a blood ritual two.
Speaker 2: That's what I was asking earlier when he said rituals,
I was like, does j know any of the weird one?
Speaker 1: So they had a teaching of blood redemption and that's
oh really, yeah, that's how you read about yourself.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, if you commit a certain sin mm hmm. Smith,
at least back in the Smith days, they had this
idea of the only way that you could be redeemed
as if you were to die, if you committed I
think it was apostasy. Let me do your self sacrifice. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did they do something with the with the juice after.
Speaker 1: Or I think it's called blood redemption. I forgot about
this blood atonement. That's it. Early Mormon doctrine had a
teaching of blood atonement, and the idea was that in
early Mormonism.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: This is particularly under the time of Brigham Young, if
you committed certain grievous actions such as murder or covenant breaking.
I'm not sure what covenant breaking is, the atonement could
only be remedied by your restitution, restitution or redemptive death. Wow. Yeah.
The second President and prophet of the Church, Brigham Young,
taught this specifically in his eighteen fifties sermons.
Speaker 2: Now that's a tactic you've used in debates that maybe
most people don't expect because they look at the Book
of Mormon General Practices. Maybe would other Mormon apologists say
or don't say, but you were like, well there's these
lingering sermons.
Speaker 1: No, you have to read the sermons because it's their
prophets speaking. Yeah, you got to go to those directly.
Speaker 2: Whoever wrote this was sipping on that flint water correctly.
I mean, it really is like it gets you excited
a little bit to like write a cartoon. Like Honestly,
when I watched that Jay, I was like, well, make
a story like this.
Speaker 1: This is also similar to masonry too, because in masonry,
at least classically, there's the oath that if you you
have your slit, if you release the secrets of masonry,
that's the oath you take. And probably Brigham and Joseph
copied that oath as well for their blood atonement doctrine.
Speaker 2: That would be kind of funny they held that, but
there actually were no secrets, like they just didn't have them.
But they were like they exist. If you threaten them,
will you die? But you have to work your way
up to the secrets.
Speaker 1: I heard.
Speaker 2: We often think that in freemasonry, like what is it
the highest? We always think that thirty three is the highest.
That's actually not true, right, It's like it goes up.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's hard to say because who's official
in this stuff anyway?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: I mean, so you can go study at Black Lodges
where you can go all the way up to the
ninety eighth degree of the Memphis and Misery, but then
the rest of the Masons don't recognize that.
Speaker 2: So who knows.
Speaker 1: It's all just made up anyway.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Ben for four ninety nine says, when does
iron Man save Jesus from doctor Doom? It's pretty much,
you know, if he lived longer. And can you imagine
Joseph Smith saw some of the cool stories that existed
today and he wanted to include them.
Speaker 1: How crazy. It's very similar to Marvel Cinemata universe. That's accurate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Duff Freak two dollars was Jay raised in Sarasota, Florida.
Speaker 3: You don't have to answer that if you don't want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm problem the Bible Belt, but not from Florida.
Speaker 2: Justin Henley. Two dollars Treasure seeker is a fun way
of saying thief. That's actually funny. Treasure seeker. He was
a he was just an adventurer.
Speaker 1: It's like he had like a stick Jones, that's all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Indiana Jones. And he had the stick with
the with the bag lunch in the back. Ben four
nine nine. Justin Hart, Justin Henley, check Mark, thank you
so much for that, Will Emmanuel handing over the Pesos
endless celestial sex, super chat train.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, President Sundowner Bucks, bagel sharing, Yeah, thank you.
Share your bagels, share your bagel spreads. Uh h, Brossei
four nine nine. H laughs out loud. Can't imagine Jay
getting precept by a soon to be wine mom. She
hit you with the cannons of Virginia Slims and you
froze up. I'm guessing no.
Speaker 5: I like that.
Speaker 2: You were very nice with that young lady about I
think I thought she said Virginia Slims. I figured about Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I thought that was yet.
Speaker 1: It was a tongue in cheek. Debate is an actress?
I mean what we respect? You know? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Cody four nine nine. Have you noticed Mormons investing caffeine?
Muslims will sell you alcohol, Amish will let you drive
them around, they will help you send when you missed
out a group. We won't mention them. Everyone knows that
is interesting. Jay mentioned they invest they are our corporations,
that they're going to include all of their income. Right,
So uh deut Jel five bucks says, I forgot to
mention these prophetic YouTubers claim to be the reference of
Acts two seven.
Speaker 1: Except that in the Book of Acts Peter literally says
that what's happening at Pentecost and Acts two is the
fulfillment of Joel. Say that again in Acts two when
Peter starts preaching about what's happening at actswos Pentecosts. So
the Holy Spirit coming down and the people seeing the
miraculous manifestation of speaking in languages not gibberish languages, that's
the fulfillment of the Book of Joel, predicting in the
last days the Spirit will be poured out in all flesh. Okay,
so it is not about any YouTuber today. When Peter
explains that what's happening in Acts two is the fulfillment,
does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. I just want to clarify yea, yeah,
just the only five bucks.
Speaker 1: It's not a sex cult. Yeah, I read that already.
Speaker 3: That's really funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a it's just soaking, just the weirdest thing.
Speaker 1: Well I wasn't even I don't even know about the
soaking thing. I'm just saying that the sex cult l
is like the Joseph Smith celestial yah.
Speaker 2: Celestial or yeah, yeah, cosmic wife or you know, multiple
wive orgies. And this is also the case that you could,
if you're a good God, if you developed to be
a really good god, it's not just that you have
a planet, but you can have your own galaxy.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's like, what is it.
Speaker 2: It's basically like prosperity gospel, but for the cosmic realm,
where materialism still holds true. Even though you transcend it
by dying into the cosmic realm, you still get what's
equivalent to a big mansion. It's just it's just clusters
of stars or something like this.
Speaker 1: Here's another good question too that we didn't get to,
which came up in one of the Shammouon's debates with
one of the Mormons. So I thought that was interesting.
So if God the Father has a flesh body and
there's a mother. Yeah, wouldn't that suggest that there's also goddesses?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So and then an act needed to happen to as well, exactly, Yeah,
endless regress. It's really just like a weird naturalism. It's
like a weird physical paradigm that then they take the
physical and then they apply it to the the heavenly.
Speaker 1: It's like a one to one correspondence.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: In fact, a lot of Muslims actually think that Christians
teach that God the Father impregnated Mary. Right, so it's
like what Muslims misunderstand is what Mormons actually believe.
Speaker 2: That's hilarious. Wow, that crossover. Another two bucks. It's funny
because Joseph Smith is such a black name. That's funny,
Ben four ninety nine. And this makes me want to
soak so bad, oh Man, Derek five bucks. Mortmon An
apologist Jacob Hanson claims they believe in theosis the way
the Church fathers.
Speaker 1: No, I mean that should be obviously not based on
everything that we've already said. That's obviously not true.
Speaker 2: Smalls four ninety nine. Not gonna lie. Mormonism would make
a sick Prague Rock concept album. Yeah, perhaps they don't. Wait,
that's the other thing is like, what is there? Do
they have a cappella worship music?
Speaker 1: They have the famous Tyernacle choir.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so they don't use they don't do bass solos.
Speaker 1: Then I don't know if Mormon churches have instruments. I
want to say the r LDS which reorganized and rebranded
as Community Church, I think I think they have a
praising worship man, gotcha, I've.
Speaker 2: Never seen it. I thought I would see that though
on the internet if it existed, I would see it
in some sort of extreme for format. I don't think
I have, but you know who knows? Another five bucks?
Aery Shaffir does a good stand up routine about this junus.
He says that they have to go soft and it
isn't considered a stroke to pull. Yeah, it's it's it's
all legalists loopholes. You know, it's endless, just endless debating.
It's just constantly debating how you can get away with something. Apparently,
Harrison Parker remember for twenty eight months, Thank you so much, Harry,
And that's a long time to support ex Mormon here,
keep up the destroying logic of the church. It's all
about the fields. I didn't actually know this, Jay. I
thought it was more about like submit to unquestioning authority
that can't justify any positions. I didn't know Mormonism act
appeals to the fields.
Speaker 1: I was. I was being straight up like, it's that's
their apologetic is like makes me feel good?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Uh me? And the first time I ever acted interacted
with Mormons, the missionary in my hometown, it was that
was the conversation. It was like I was a little
bit into apologetics. I didn't know a whole lot about it,
but I was like, well, why am I supposed to
believe in the Book of Mormon. They're like, because you're
gonna feel it, just praying to feel it.
Speaker 4: That was it.
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, well, will y'all want I
actually tried to get them to watch that god Maker's
clip that we watched mm HM because it used to
be on VHS, and they were like, we'll have to
ask our elders if we can do that. And I
was like, I will watch y'all's Mormon Jesus movie. Because
they were handing out VHS is of Mormon Jesus. I
was like, I will watch that if y'all will watch
this with me and their elders told them no, they couldn't,
no trade off, no, no go.
Speaker 2: Ben four nine, Oh you go, commando question, Who's guess
who's going to Hell?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 2: The underwear thing, that would just be funny to have
a pair of unopened magical underwear just to like just
for you know, keepsake, just for Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Do they make like what if you're an
elder Mormon, do you get like the you know, elder diapers.
Speaker 2: Depends, Yeah, magical depends or something like this, all in
the goods. Ten bucks, give me, give me, give me
dire by Fire, dire by Fire.
Speaker 1: Did you see that black creature, the one you did
you had on a clip?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was cracking me out, man, some of them
the things I'm finding, I'm just like, I'm like, I'm
like laughing and giggling like in a nice light way,
but I'm also like part of me is dying inside
that it exists. Ben five bucks, cutting off your cosmic
junk is just circumcision with extra credit. Yeah, and in
a sense, another thing they stole maximum ten bucks, JB.
Look forward to seeing you on whatever. Yeah, it's going
to be fun. I think mostly you know, my patients
will be tested at least, so that's good.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get I'm trying to get not so
aroudite to do a debate as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I hope that happens. That was supposed to
happen this Saturday for me, but they couldn't find someone.
So I'm going to be in Santa Barbara and probably
without a debate opponent. But that's fine, you know, come
back next time if that's the case. Extentally five dollars.
How can someone be sixty percent eternal?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is kind of weird.
Speaker 1: Nate five bucks? How would you answer this question? Her question?
Speaker 2: How did God get to become God? I thought it
was just a dumb question. Well, we'd say God's eternal, uncreated,
there's no becoming.
Speaker 1: He doesn't becoming God, but.
Speaker 2: There is in mormonives, you have to become Well, what
how do how does what was the question for him?
How did God become human? Is the question? It's even
a more brutal question to to the question of what's
God's you know, ontological status in time, pre time, et cetera.
This is a worse question. It's like you hold that
God was once human, but was he eternally human and
became God? Well that doesn't make sense even if you say, no,
he became human, but he was once God.
Speaker 1: That does that? Also?
Speaker 2: Does that? You know? That's a I don't even know
what they mean when they're saying these these transitions are happening,
you know, so denial of universals.
Speaker 1: Well, if you when we asked that Mormon gud too,
I don't think it was Robert Gerr was one of
the other ones we were asking about the eternal. Maybe
it was Gerr, but he was admitting, Oh, there's a
bunch of different you know, eternal things. It's like, well,
that would be polytheism. He's like, no, we just defined
polytheism differently or something like change the meanings of the
words and say no, it's not pitism because that's not
what paltheism means.
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, well then they take the approach that
there's eternality of what you say prima material is that
what you the phrase.
Speaker 1: Right matter is like the ancient it's a teaching of Aristotle.
Aristotle believes that matters eternal and then the first cause
God of Aristotle forms prime matter into the forms that
we have.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so just like like it, unintelligible mass then
takes some sort of intelligible form.
Speaker 1: So the deity of Aristotle is the great Architect of
the universe. An architect works with pre existing matter, he
doesn't create out of nothing. And likewise, Masonry's God is
a great architect of the universe. Literally, that's what the
g and masonry stands for the great architect because they
Masons don't believe in creation. Next Nilo Joseph Smith just
directly borrowed that out of masonry. Interesting.
Speaker 2: It's because it's interesting because I debate. You know, these
atheists who now are confronting that there is some sort
of necessary component to reality that has to be eternal essentially,
so they they keep going back in time and then
they eventually get to this place where they're saying there
is a They make the transcendental argument for God, by
the way, which is not for God, it's for the
initial state.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Initial state. Well, well it's not even not matter. As
I press them on matter and they go to initial
state is something. When you ask them to extrapolate on it,
they agree that whatever they're about to say can't be
identical to how they understand everything that comes after matter,
think how things operate together. It has to be beyond that.
Speaker 1: In so so the the great divine bang.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, totally like beyond our comprehension can't match
the reality after it.
Speaker 1: It's really funny when you asked them about that pre
banged state, they're like, it was all of the universes
bound up into an infinite, infinitely piny, and infinitely tiny particle,
which is like, there's absolutely no evidence at all for that.
It's all just totally made up. It's literally like Mormon
level stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild. They're like, and then and you're like, well,
that particle exists inside what car like a Cartesian.
Speaker 1: Plane, Like you don't know what exploded.
Speaker 2: No, it's just it's like everything in there's nothing outside
of that thing. And okay, that really just you're just
making an impersonal god with no intent, right, that's all
you're doing.
Speaker 1: And it's an even stupider position than what they think
is stupid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's even dumber than whoever turns God into the
infinite material space realm. You know, they're just doing the opposite.
They're just like, no, we're going to condense that. They're like,
that's stupid. They're like, well, your god replacement is just
a tiny particle that encapsulates everything before time. Okay, cool,
so you're religious. So you're religious. Bend five bucks. Here's
some money to stuff in your shoulder pads. I know
I need to get these things out well.
Speaker 1: By the way, I mean Mormonism, I guess, would also
be not consistent with big bang unless they think that
there's multiverse, because how can you have an infinite succession
of gods if there's a big bang? Yeap to start everything.
Speaker 2: That's true, they're gonna have to have and even the yeah,
the initial state would have some state before it that
would just be the real godly It's like the Eternal Father.
Speaker 1: Same thing.
Speaker 2: Worried you'll have the smallest shoulders on the panel. I
just I'm not worried. I'm sure of that. I'll use
that to my advantage.
Speaker 1: That's how I.
Speaker 2: Soften my opponents. By the ways, there just like a
get doing the panel thing. They couldn't find a one off,
one on one for me the day before, so I'll
just do the classic nine hour panel. By the way,
if you end up going there, Jay and you do
a one on one. I'm gonna be pissed if you
don't have to survive the eight hour panel with the chicks.
Speaker 1: So is it actually eight hours? Well it could be.
Speaker 2: I mean it's more like whoa, maybe I've seen a
high six.
Speaker 1: At some point. Oh okay, wow, this is a lot though.
Speaker 2: Especially at like where it'll go in the last two hours.
You know what kind of topics you'll get into, but
you'll get to see through my pain. One thousand wives.
But they all look the same.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: They don't even get a variety like the Don't the
Muslims at least, you know, provide some sort of diversity.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know what the how
well falled out that.
Speaker 2: Is Orthodox Pilgrim twenty bucks from here, Hey, Ephraim. Any
cult borrows concepts from the surrounding religions. Mormonism is no
different than Islam in this regard. Tons of parallels between them.
Great work, guys, good struggle to you both during Lent.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Prairie muffin Muslims is what I've been calling them.
Speaker 2: Very muff funny ah, yeah, because what else could they
appeal to? They have to borrow from something around them
or else. And I'm trying to think of like, oh,
is there any cult you can think of that was
pretty pretty grassroots.
Speaker 1: And not just completely made up? I don't know, but
and that reminds me too. Muslims will pretend, kid you not,
that the Qur'an invents and pioneers Greek atomism as a position.
The Sunni Muslims will claim that it's divine revelation that
they knew about Greek atomism. It's like, wait a minute,
you're admitting that that's from Greek philosophers. Yeah, but it's
in the Quran and improves it to be true. Wow,
you ripped it off of them. No, it came from
the Koran. Yeah. And the Shia do the exact same thing.
So when we had doctor Kololan, we were arguing with
doctor Clots, like, wait a minute, you're saying that and
his students you're saying that the Quran is really just neoplatonism. Yes,
does it come from Plato and the neoplatonists? No, it's
from the Quran. Mm hm wow yeah yeah, I mean
you see how silly that is. It is?
Speaker 2: Though, Well, I see why you get like, you know,
get so flustered with some and and and rightly so
asked the question, when you get to that point with
someone on a call, is there really anything that you
can do or say if they take if they if
you show them this and you go, do you see
I'll observed this and they know?
Speaker 1: I mean, what else can you do? Well, he's saying like, yeah,
you know, that's uh, you know the Summa Theologica of
Aquinas I wrote that, and then you go and you
read like my version of it, which is just me
adding a few paragraphs at the bottom, as I see,
that's mine. And then what did the one guy say?
Speaker 5: Jay?
Speaker 1: He said, well, it was taken out? And you go,
how do you know it's taken out?
Speaker 2: What he said? He said, it wasn't there?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's not there exactly. That's why I'm I'm
propaed in the Old Testament. How do you know? Well,
is it there?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Exactly, so they took it out? What do you need
that's proof? That's just that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Why I heard that part of the of the combo,
And I was like, okay, well I understand why Jay
knocks him off at that point, because like you just
can't Yeah, I mean, if they can't reason that through
and go okay, this is this is um sure I
have to rethink this.
Speaker 1: Look, yes, it's true that Plato teaches Platonism, but it's
from the Quran. And you know how they get around that. Well,
the Kuran's eternal, right, Oh, the eternal Karan. Yeah. Yeah,
So it's not Mohammed and his career ripping it off
of Plato for the.
Speaker 2: Eternal courn Oh so it's it's all so they're remembering it.
It's all like this, this constant download, their revelatory system
is a sort of like a down it's a download
system that they're remembering or something like that.
Speaker 1: Uh. Remember we were talking about Jordan Peterson and somebody
there was an academic that sent me an essay critiquing
Jordan Peterson and it was a really good critique and
he said, Jordan Peterson is an archaeologist of ideas and
he's trying to piece together.
Speaker 2: She's gonna talk.
Speaker 8: Sorry, it's okay, give me this, give me that, kill
my enemy, kill my enemy, give me, give me, give me,
give me.
Speaker 2: Is that a Is that a hardcore rap song or
something that's the that's the preacher, that's the that was
the black preacher that you were reviewing, got you, I
didn't recognize the leader.
Speaker 1: It would be like, you know, so that the professor
was saying, Jordan Peterson is an archaeologist of ideas, and
it's as if he thinks as the super mystical psychologist,
he can reconstruct the ancient true religion from the religions
and it's like he'll be the sort of prophetic arbiter,
right I now Peterson hasn't gone that far, but like
it's like what Joseph Smith did, right, interesting level beyond
saying I have reconstructed for you the true ancient religion
and I've patched it together because I have the authority
in the revelation to do so. And here it is.
Speaker 2: Interesting, it wouldn't It's similar, not exact, but parallel to
the what would be the mechanics of like trying to
pick from a multitude of relige just believes, trying to
find the truth of each of them, putting them in
a cart and calling it a new religion that doesn't
tell you how those things are true to begin with. Right, So, well,
that's what.
Speaker 1: It rests on the self appointed authority of the prophet to.
Speaker 2: Do it right. Yeah, So it's always this person coming
along and going, oh, I'm I'm dictating this for you guys,
you should follow me. That's why, Probably why it's super
effective is because if it quote resonates with people and
it feels right and it sounds right, and they use
their sort of intuition, which a lot of us do
rely on our intuition. A lot of times it doesn't verify,
but we do rest on our intuition. If you just
go with that, I can see why people get lost
in the sauce with that, because it's like, you know,
it just seems it's a good sounding thing. It's like
listening to uh, what's his name? If you're not if
you're not thoughtful and at least somewhat philosophically based, if
you listen to Russell brand talk, you might get swept
away in the good sounding sort of platitudes and be like,
this guy's onto something. It's you tonight. It's a baptizing
on the way