WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.599 Last episode, we began talking about Spahalski brothers. They were 2 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:13.720 a pair of twins who grew up together, but even 3 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:17.039 as their path split, they both went on to become murderers. 4 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:19.640 So be sure to check out part one first, and 5 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.399 if you're ready, then let's begin with the second half 6 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:23.480 with Part two. 7 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:28.800 My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked Ingram, 8 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:30.359 a true crime podcast. 9 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:38.960 Warning the following podcasts and material intent for a maturial audience. 10 00:00:39.759 --> 00:01:01.119 Listener discretion is advised. I don't know if anyone follows 11 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:03.880 us on social media's but we've been doing some reels 12 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:06.400 lately and Nicole put out her first reel the other day. 13 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:09.000 Is that my first reel? 14 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:11.799 Well, you're first reel in a long time. We did 15 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:13.840 some reels back in the day, like a couple of 16 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:18.200 years ago, and then we just didn't and now we're doing. 17 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.239 It again, and it could I'd have to go look back, 18 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:23.439 but it could be I guess, the first solo I. 19 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.400 Don't real I don't think it's the first solo reel, okay, 20 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.120 but it's the first solo reel in our new era 21 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:33.040 in a very long time, in years probably, Yeah, And 22 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.239 we're going to be making sure that we're getting very 23 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:37.640 consistent at posting. So if you want to check out 24 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:40.040 our socials links in the description, but I don't think 25 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:43.280 you're here necessarily to go and see our Instagram stuff, 26 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.200 although you could see our actual faces rather than just 27 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:49.920 hearing our voice. But you are here for a podcast, 28 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:51.280 for an episode, and for. 29 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:53.159 A part two episode. 30 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:56.400 It is part two of the Spahalski Brothers Today. Do 31 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:57.640 you remember what happened in Part one? 32 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.200 Yeah, to some extent. Actually, this one is sort of 33 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:04.040 has sort of stuck in there. I've thought about it 34 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:05.640 a few times since Tuesday, So. 35 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:07.400 Well, that's good. I don't know if anyone heard the 36 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:12.560 rooster crow in between me talking and Nicole. Yeah, gotta 37 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.360 love little farm life in our tiny home. But I'm 38 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:16.919 glad you've been thinking about it. I do have a 39 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:18.840 summary for you if you're ready to hear that. 40 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.159 Yeah, let's because I mean, I'm sure there's bits and 41 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:24.520 pieces I've forgotten, So let's hear that. 42 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:27.000 Right into the story, right into the gap and then 43 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.439 the story. Yeah, okay, okay, So in part one, I 44 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:33.840 started at the very beginning with Robert and Steven Spahalski 45 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.840 they were growing up side by side in Elmira, New York. 46 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:39.599 They were identical twins, living in the same house, with 47 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:42.639 the same upbringing and same early environment, all of it. 48 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.400 And that's what makes a story so strange right from 49 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:49.000 the very start, because there's nothing obvious in those early 50 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:52.240 years that explains what was actually coming. But as they 51 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:55.560 moved into their teenage years, things began to shift. Robert 52 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.719 started getting into trouble, first stealing cars, setting fires, and 53 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:03.360 getting arrested. In nineteen seventy one, everything changed when Stephen, 54 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.719 the other brother, at just sixteen years old, killed a 55 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:09.960 man named Ronald Ripley in a brutal attack using both 56 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.759 a hammer and a knife. Now he confessed and claimed 57 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.240 it was triggered by an unwonted sexual advance, and eventually 58 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:21.240 pleaded guilty to manslaughter. He was sentenced to prison from 59 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.800 that point on, and Stephen's life became defined by the system, 60 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:28.719 serving time, getting released, and then going right back in. Now, 61 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:31.919 what stands out in his mindset, even years later on, 62 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.479 was there was no remorse in the way he talked 63 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.360 about what he did. He simply justified the murder of Ronald, 64 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.439 and that was that. So while Stephen becomes a brother 65 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:44.599 who killed and got caught. Robert, on the other hand, 66 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.680 stayed free on the outside, drifting through crime, addiction and 67 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:53.319 unstable living in Rochester, and then in nineteen ninety he 68 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.639 crossed the very same line his brother did. But how 69 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:00.400 it differs is that no one realized it. He killed 70 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.919 a woman named Maureen Armstrong, then willingly spoke to police 71 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:07.400 during the investigation. He actually walked up to the police 72 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.120 to talk about it, and then he got away scott free. 73 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:14.280 Then it happened again with Adrian Berger in nineteen ninety one. 74 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:18.079 He was questioned but released. And where we left off 75 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:21.920 was with Charles Grant. He was found dead and someone 76 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:26.240 was found driving his car impersonating him during a typical roadstop. 77 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.360 But however they didn't realize that fact until it was 78 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:32.959 far too late. So that's where we are investigating the 79 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:37.519 death of Charles grand and who was impersonating him. Does 80 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:38.480 that all sound familiar? 81 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.720 It sure does. Okay, it's wild. The fact that they're 82 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.360 twins is just what really makes it wild. 83 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:48.240 Twins that went down this same path, right, And that's 84 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.480 very interesting with his story is there's so much that 85 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:53.800 is the same. But you'll see when we get to 86 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:55.839 the end that there is so much that's different at 87 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:56.439 the same time. 88 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:01.199 Wow, okay, you're really just getting us on the edge 89 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:02.120 of our seat right off the. 90 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.040 Bay at well, I'm not trying to on purpose. That's 91 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:06.759 just literally part of this story. It's a major fact 92 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:11.519 that there are such diverging personality traits, but so many 93 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.319 things that come together in the same way too. It's 94 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:17.800 different but same, you know. I don't know how else 95 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:20.079 to put it, but anyways, I think it's on with 96 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:20.839 the story if you're ready. 97 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:21.319 Yep. 98 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:26.480 So inside Charles's residence, investigators began the process of reconstructing 99 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:29.000 what had happened that night he had died, and the 100 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:33.639 nature of the attack wasn't exactly immediately apparent. Now, Charles 101 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.519 had suffered multiple blows to the head, which was consistent 102 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.600 with being struck repeatedly with a blunt object, and a 103 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:42.000 hammer would later be identified as a weapon used in 104 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.000 the assault, but the force of the blow and the 105 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.319 number of times they had been delivered well indicated the 106 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:53.040 attack was sustained instead of a single moment, and interestingly enough, 107 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.480 there were additional details that suggested someone had attempted to 108 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:01.560 interfere with the later and following investigation. See the thermostat 109 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.920 in the home. It had been turned up, significantly increasing 110 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.560 the temperature inside the residence. It was a clear attempt 111 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:13.120 to help accelerate the decomposition process of Charles's body. 112 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:15.920 Jeez, I would never have thought of that. 113 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.720 Yeah. It actually it worked to a certain degree, ok too. 114 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.600 I complicated some of the efforts to determine the exact 115 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:26.279 time of death. However, it didn't prevent investigators from really 116 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.480 establishing a general timeline though, But it did introduce just 117 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:31.439 enough of that like uncertainty to make sure that the 118 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:34.759 early stages of the investigation were a little more difficult. 119 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:37.879 You know though, if it was left for much of 120 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.040 an extended time, if it was days, that's when it 121 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:42.959 could have started affecting a lot more Like if they 122 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.160 found Charles a week later and he was sitting in 123 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.879 that hot temperature, it would have made things extremely difficult. 124 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.079 Oh dang, I don't know, I've never heard of that before. 125 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:55.480 Well, I mean people do many things to try and 126 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.759 speed up in slow decomp right, I mean, putting bodies 127 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:04.639 in water accelerates dcomp Putting bodies on ice slows d coomp. Right, 128 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.600 So there's a lot of different things, and yeah, turning 129 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:12.319 up the thermostatus is one of those things. Interesting Now, 130 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:14.800 the fact that the attack had occurred inside Charles's home 131 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:19.240 suggested that whoever was responsible had likely been invited inside. 132 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.439 Because there were no signs of forced entries, it didn't 133 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:24.560 support any idea of like a theft or a break in, 134 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:27.839 so it indicated that the initial interaction between Charles and 135 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:31.839 whoever attacked him had likely not been a situation where 136 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.519 they appeared threatening. So, with all this information at hand, 137 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.040 detectives began canvassing the area and speaking with anyone who 138 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:43.120 might have seen something unusual, and one witness, a man 139 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:47.680 named Alan Streeter, provided a detail that quickly became rather significant. 140 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:51.680 He reported seeing someone leaving the area in Charles's vehicle 141 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:55.920 around the time the investigation believed the murder had taken place. Now, 142 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:58.879 he did not know the individual's name, However, he was 143 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.519 able to provide a description that was specific enough to 144 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:05.360 be pretty useful, and when he was presented with a 145 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.600 photo lineup well, Alan Streeter identified one of the images 146 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:16.600 without hesitation. The man he selected was Robert Spahalski. Investigators 147 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.040 then went back and revisited the earlier traffic stop, the 148 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.920 officer who had conducted it was shown the very same 149 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:26.600 photo lineup, and he too identified Robert as the individual 150 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:28.920 he had spoken with the man who had claimed to 151 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.559 be Charles Grand while driving Charles's vehicle. So with those 152 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.960 two identifications in place, the connection between Robert and the 153 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:41.000 case became suddenly much stronger. He was quickly located and 154 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:44.519 taken into custody, but the charges brought against him, while 155 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.879 they reflected the limitations of what investigators could prove at 156 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:50.840 that point. See, while they had clear evidence that he 157 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.679 had been in possession of Charles's car and that he 158 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.879 had impersonated him during the traffic stop, they did not 159 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.919 yet have the forensic evidence necessary to play inside the 160 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:04.519 home at the time of the killing. As a result, 161 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:08.480 he was charged only with criminal impersonation and related offenses 162 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:12.279 rather than murder, but that didn't mean investigators were moving 163 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:16.279 on from him. Even when Robert was released. However, in 164 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.600 Robert's mind for the third time, he had now been 165 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.240 linked to a violent death questioned by police as well, 166 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.440 and he had simply gotten away with it. And even 167 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.559 though investigators had their eyes on him, the momentum around 168 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:32.799 the case began to fade. Without new evidence, and without 169 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:36.320 a confession or a clear forensic link tying Robert directly 170 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.720 to the act of the murder itself, the case stalled. 171 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:43.039 Detectives who had been focused on it were pulled towards 172 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.639 other investigations and other victims with other crimes that required 173 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.759 their attention. In practical terms, the case moved from an 174 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:56.200 active pursuit to an unresolved status. The same was true 175 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:00.279 for the death of Moraine Armstrong and Adrian Burger. Each 176 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.480 case existed in its own file, with its own set 177 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.200 of facts and unanswered questions. There were even similarities between them, 178 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.799 but without a link, they remained separate in the eyes 179 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.720 of the system, each one waiting for something new that 180 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:17.440 might move it forward. Eventually, memories faded with the passing years, 181 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.080 and witnesses became harder to locate, and Robert he continued 182 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:25.039 living his life. He remained in Rochester, moving between apartments 183 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:28.039 and areas where people lived close to the margins of society, 184 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:32.919 places where economy and stability and drug use and transient 185 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:34.440 relationships were very common. 186 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.120 He's he's killed three people now and he's just still 187 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.080 out and about living his life. 188 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:42.360 Correct and he was questioned each and every. 189 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:46.200 Time, whoa okay? I thought for sure this third one 190 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.879 it would be you know okay, like we got you, 191 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:50.240 Like this is the end of it. 192 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:55.120 Nope, they had nothing. Huh, And he's just outliving his life. 193 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.200 Years are passing at this point. Honestly, whoa okay? 194 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.360 That is like wild and also fricking terrifying. 195 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:04.480 Yeah. Now, in the way he was living, though, it 196 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.720 was very possible to exist without drawing much attention to himself, 197 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:10.039 even for someone with a history of arrests and repeated 198 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:13.600 contact with law enforcement like it allowed him to go 199 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:17.440 those years without drawing that attention. Now, his crack cocaine 200 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.120 addiction continued as well, and it shaped his decisions in 201 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:23.720 ways that were both immediate and long term, influencing who 202 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:26.360 he was associated with and how he spent his time, 203 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:29.759 and even what risks he was willing to take. Supporting 204 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.320 that habit required a steady flow of money, and without 205 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:35.080 stable employment, he continued to rely on the same mix 206 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:38.039 of activities that had honestly defined his life for years 207 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.679 leading up to nineteen ninety one. He dealt drugs on 208 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:43.879 a small scale, engaged in theft when necessary, and continued 209 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.159 working as a sex worker. He was still arrested, periodically 210 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.000 processed through the system, and then released once again. The charges, however, 211 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:55.799 remained relatively small in the grand scheme of things such 212 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:00.360 as burglary related offenses and other crimes. Was just one 213 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.720 of the many individuals moving through that same cycle in 214 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:07.320 a system that was managing a large number of similar cases, 215 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:11.320 so he didn't stand out at all. There were moments, however, 216 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:15.399 when the past did seem like it was close to resurfacing. 217 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.559 In July of nineteen ninety two, less than a year 218 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.519 after the death of Charles Grand, Robert was approached by 219 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.200 two police officers while sitting on a bridge in downtown Rochester. 220 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:31.399 Now it was a routine situation, as the conversation was deployed, 221 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.519 and his response became noticeably defensive. He referenced without even 222 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:41.039 being prompted, mind you, the earlier investigation into Charles Grand's death, 223 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.879 describing it as something the police had already tried to 224 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.759 pin on him. It was an unusual detail to introduce voluntarily, 225 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:50.720 especially in a moment like that, when it's just like 226 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:52.840 a walk up check on a person sitting there on 227 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:53.399 a bridge. 228 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:55.639 Yeah, dang, that does not seem like that was a 229 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:56.240 good choice. 230 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.799 No. Now, the officers ran his information, confirmed there were 231 00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:04.440 no outstanding issues requiring immediate attention, and so they allowed 232 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:08.159 him to leave. Years later, in nineteen ninety eight, there 233 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:11.440 was another encounter that followed a similar pattern. Robert was 234 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.600 walking along North Clinton Avenue when a patrol car pulled 235 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:18.039 over nearby. Officers approached him as part of an investigation 236 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:21.679 into a stolen camera that had been reportedly been circulating 237 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:24.720 the area. The situation had nothing to do with any 238 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.159 of the earlier murders, but Robert, for a brief moment, 239 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.679 believed the officers were there because of something else, entirely 240 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.519 that they had come to arrest him for those murders, 241 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.080 but that was obviously not the case. The officers asked 242 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.960 their question, determined he was not involved in the incident 243 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.240 they were investigating, and they left. 244 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:44.639 Kay, he does seem like he's a bit on the 245 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:45.960 paranoid side. 246 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:49.039 One hundred percent, huh. But once again though, he just 247 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:49.480 walked away. 248 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.080 Yeah, but yeah, he's paranoid, and they're kinda you know, 249 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.360 he's still in the eyes of the law with the 250 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.440 way he's living, I suppose, but he's just still getting 251 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:00.840 away with Lily everything. 252 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.200 But it's clear that, like these murders are on his mind. 253 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.679 It's like he's looking over his shoulder, almost waiting for 254 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:07.600 the moment for his past to catch up with him. 255 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:08.679 Yeah. 256 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:12.320 Now November of two thousand and five. By then fourteen 257 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.600 years had passed since the death of Charles Grant in 258 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.120 nineteen ninety one, and Robert Spahalski was still living in 259 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.679 Rochester and was still deeply entrenched in drug use, petty crime, 260 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.240 and all the same things that made his life unstable, 261 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:27.879 even developing relationships that reflected the nature of the environment 262 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:30.159 around him, you know, the comings and goings of people 263 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:35.080 with like yeah, just casual, quick, not lasting, all that 264 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:37.799 sort of stuff. But one of those relationships was with 265 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.559 a woman named Vivian IRASERI. Now, Vivian was fifty four 266 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.200 years old and lived on the same apartment building as 267 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:48.279 Robert on Spencer Street, and their connection wasn't as fleeting, 268 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.279 I guess is a good word to put as many 269 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.480 of his other relationships and connections were. They were quite 270 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:57.000 familiar with one another, spending time together and as neighbors 271 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:59.919 or acquaintances, right, they weren't like an item per se, 272 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.519 but they were definitely good acquaintances, and on November fourth, 273 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.279 two thousand and five, Vivian was inside Robert's apartment. The 274 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.200 two of them were getting high together on their good 275 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:12.519 old favorite crack cocaine, and according to Robert, the amount 276 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.879 he consumed that day affected him in a way that 277 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.360 disoriented his perception of what was happening around him. He 278 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.799 would later describe experiencing hallucinations, and he claimed that Vivian's 279 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:29.000 appearance changed and he no longer saw her as she was, 280 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:33.519 but instead something else, something threatening, something he described in 281 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:38.279 terms that suggested fear and confusion rather than recognition. Now, 282 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:42.240 at some point during this high, he struck Vivian in 283 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:46.039 the head, leaving her disoriented. And now the exact sequences 284 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:49.799 of events is difficult to reconstruct in precise detail, because 285 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.480 remember this is reconstructed through Robert, who was extremely high 286 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.080 at the time. But it is clear that the violence 287 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.919 did not end with that initial blow. In the earlier cases, 288 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.279 the attack progressed and Robert began to strangle her until 289 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:10.240 she was dead. Now, what happened afterwards marked a very 290 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:15.159 significant shift from Robert's earlier behavior. In the cases from 291 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.519 nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one, Robert had left the 292 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.759 scene distance himself from whatever he had done in allowing 293 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:27.000 the investigation to unfold without his direct involvement. But this time, though, 294 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:31.960 he did something extremely different. He moved Vivian's body into 295 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.840 the bathroom of his apartment and he began to wash her. Afterwards, 296 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.480 he wrapped her and took her down to the basement 297 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.720 of the building, where it provided a degree of concealment, 298 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.320 but was not a permanent solution by any means. It 299 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:50.399 was a temporary measure, and for several days nothing was reported. 300 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.919 Life in the building continued as it has before. People 301 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.080 moved in and out of their apartments, carrying on with 302 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.960 their routines, unaware of what had taken place or that 303 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.399 there was a deceased person in the basement of the building, 304 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:05.640 and during that time, Robert would return to the basement 305 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.240 where Vivian was. According to his later statements, he visited 306 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.240 her body during those days, standing over her and speaking 307 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.119 to Vivian and expressing what he described as remorse. 308 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.359 Hmmm, okay, that's really interesting and different. 309 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.279 Yeah, he claimed, he apologize that he experienced a sense 310 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.759 of regret for what he had done, and now Whether 311 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.680 those statements reflect genuine emotion or serve another purpose as 312 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:34.759 difficult to say. But what we do know is that 313 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.640 for the first time, there was no attempt to fully 314 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:42.319 distance himself from what had happened, and something changed in 315 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:45.200 the way he responded to the act of murder itself. 316 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.319 For fourteen years, he had carried the weight of the 317 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:54.160 earlier killings without any external consequence forcing him to confront them. 318 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.880 But now, within days of his final act, the separation 319 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.839 between action and consequence it began to collapse in on itself, 320 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.480 and on November eighth, two thousand and five, four days 321 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:12.599 after Vivian was killed, Robert went to the Rochester Public 322 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:17.119 Safety Building. He approached the front desk and calmly stated 323 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.799 that he needed to speak to someone about a homicide. Now, 324 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:23.799 people occasionally come forward with information that turns out to 325 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:28.319 be incomplete, exaggerated, or even unrelated to an actual crime itself, 326 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.480 but Robert didn't hesitate or attempt to soften what he 327 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.720 was saying in his situation. He made it very clear 328 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:39.079 when he told officers that he himself had killed someone 329 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.559 and that if police went to his apartment they would 330 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.720 find a body with a claim like that. Officers were 331 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.000 quickly dispatched to the Spencer Street address that he provided, 332 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.440 and when they searched the building, they located Vivian iras 333 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.119 Aari's body in the basement, exactly where Robert said it 334 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:03.440 would be. Has a conscience somewhat, yeah, or he just. 335 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.720 Really actually liked Vivian, I think, and this is the 336 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.720 one that affected him, and he's like, I really wish 337 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.720 I didn't do this, or the guilt of them all 338 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.759 just kind of it was like, Okay, we're done with this. 339 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:15.680 I don't know. 340 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.279 There is one specific point of information here that I'll 341 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:24.039 touch on soon that kind of regards that guilty conscience 342 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.200 sort of thing. I don't want to say it yet 343 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.440 because trust me, it's an interesting piece. But we'll get 344 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:30.480 to it, and I think you're going to find it fascinating. 345 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:30.799 Kay. 346 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.440 Now, In questioning, Robert described being with her in his 347 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.440 apartment right they were getting high and doing their drugs, 348 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.599 and he said he experienced what he claimed were hallucinations, 349 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:43.359 and he told them about the violence that followed, explaining 350 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.759 it in a way that aligned with the physical evidence 351 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:46.480 found at the scene. 352 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:46.680 Too. 353 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.079 Now, at that point they knew he murdered Vivian that 354 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.920 was very clear, but as they gathered information during the interview, 355 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.640 they began reviewing his past as well, things like his arrests, 356 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.759 his known associations, and his previous connect to unsolved cases. 357 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:06.000 And his name had appeared in many earlier investigations, including 358 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:09.000 the death of Charles Grant, and that connection provided a 359 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.480 natural point of inquiry. At some point during the questioning, 360 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.720 one of the investigators asked him directly about Charles. There 361 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.759 was a brief pause. Robert had already admitted to one killing, 362 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.799 and after a moment, he admitted that he too, killed 363 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:29.400 Charles grand He began describing the interaction inside Charles's home, 364 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.279 explaining that there was an argument that had taken place 365 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:35.319 and that it had escalated. He said he hit Charles 366 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:37.559 in the head with a hammer, detailing the act in 367 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:40.160 a way that corresponded precisely with the injuries that were 368 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:44.799 documented by investigators during the original investigation. He also addressed 369 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.279 the events that followed too, including taking Charles's car and 370 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.599 using it afterward, which directly connected to the earlier traffic 371 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.880 stop where he was impersonating him and convicted of Now 372 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.599 investigators soon also turned the conversation to another unresolved case. 373 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.440 They asked Robert about Adrian Berger, and when her name 374 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:09.440 was mentioned, his response introduced a subtle but important shift, because, 375 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.359 instead of immediately denying any involvement, he asked whether the 376 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:19.119 woman had lived on Emerson Street, and then, when confronted 377 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:23.279 with the implications of that question alone, Robert admitted he 378 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:24.240 killed Adrian as. 379 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:29.279 Well, but he didn't really remember at first, well, or 380 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:31.440 didn't recognize the name per se. 381 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.279 Maybe not the name, and he's like, is that the 382 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.000 one that lives on Emerson Street? And the police are like, yeah, 383 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.799 you realize what you just asked, Like that that is 384 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.680 the one that lived on Emerson Street. And he's like, okay, yeah, yeah, 385 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:42.240 I killed her. 386 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:46.279 Uh okay, I don't love that for like a lot 387 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:48.000 of reasons, obviously, I. 388 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:51.119 Know it also might have been him trying to play 389 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:54.960 dumb as well and then just realizing, oh, yeah, what 390 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.440 he asked definitely looks bad, so he just kind of 391 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:01.079 went with it after that. Who knows, It's hard to say, 392 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:03.880 but he described being with her in her apartment and 393 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:09.400 explained that he had snapped during an encounter, ultimately strangling her. Now, 394 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:15.079 at that point, investigators had obtained admissions to three separate murders, 395 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:20.519 but if you're keeping count, there's one remaining case. And 396 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:24.000 when Moraine Armstrong's name was introduced, the pattern of the 397 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:29.680 interview changed suddenly. This time, Robert hesitated. He denied knowing her, 398 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.880 denied involvement, and avoided providing a direct answer in a 399 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:36.759 way that he had with the other victims. Even when 400 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.200 presented with her photograph, he remained steadfast, suggesting he didn't 401 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.880