WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:06.200 A Cast Classics. The Witness follows Joseph O'Callahan, who provide 2 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:10.000 a testimony that help convict two drug dealing gangsters for murder, 3 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:13.320 making him the youngest person to ever enter the Witness 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:17.559 Protection program in Ireland. Now he tells his extraordinary life 5 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:18.960 story for the first time. 6 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.359 Tell him to stand up now and get into Witness 7 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:23.920 box and give evil as I didn't do it, so 8 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:25.320 that's why I'm standing here. 9 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:28.440 Find out more about The Witness and other ACAST classics 10 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:30.960 at acast dot com. Forward Slash Classics. 11 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:41.399 This is Where Did the Road Go? Our aim is 12 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:45.880 to explore the fringe to be true, skeptics in question openly, 13 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:50.600 to investigate the paranormal, bring light to the dark corners 14 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.200 of history, and give a voice to the shun of science. 15 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.679 We deal in mysteries and the important questions that these 16 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:03.679 subjects bring to light. What is reality? Who are we? 17 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:08.680 And why are we here? Join us on the web 18 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:13.439 at Where Didthroadgo dot com for a full show archive, 19 00:01:13.879 --> 00:01:17.959 links to all our social media, upcoming schedule, and much 20 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:23.280 much more. Now join your host Sayah on this week's 21 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.319 edition of Where Did the Road Go? 22 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:30.640 And welcome to this week's show, I'm here again with 23 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.879 Luke Hey, and uh, turn that mic a little towards 24 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:40.239 you better. Yeah, okay, you don't talk aloud to begin with, 25 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:46.439 all right? And uh, Also I wanted to mention real quick, 26 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:48.959 I have up on the site that is not being 27 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:52.519 aired on the The Opinions Express, but a midweek podcast 28 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:56.920 with Aaron Gullias and Divo Spice on Doctor Who. Obviously 29 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:01.840 not obviously fiction material, However, I think there's a big 30 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:04.359 crossover audience between Doctor Who and the stuff we're talking 31 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:06.760 about here. I originally did it from my music show 32 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.919 back in October and then decided I would toss it 33 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.520 in on this show after posting it to the Facebook 34 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.120 page and a lot of people were really interested in it. Plus, 35 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:17.400 Aaron is such a regular guest on here, I figured 36 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:19.800 given to the side to his research. So if you're 37 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:22.080 interested in that, you got to go to the website 38 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:24.599 where DoD Theroadgo dot com and you can download that 39 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:28.520 as well the John Anthony West interviews up there in 40 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:32.000 the video format on YouTube audio format on the website, 41 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:37.120 and I am collecting stories for another Listener's Story episode 42 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:38.919 at some point over the summer. So if you have 43 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:40.879 something that's happened to you and you want to talk 44 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:43.479 about it, shoot me an email, go to where at 45 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.560 the roadgo dot com, get in touch and we'll work 46 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:51.960 it out. Our guest tonight, however, is mister Michael M. Hughes. 47 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:53.800 And are you with us? Michael? 48 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:54.800 Sure? 49 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:57.719 Am all right? And you're based out of Baltimore. 50 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.599 Sure em yep, lift here my life. 51 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:02.439 Okay. You want to give people a little bit of 52 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:05.120 your background because you're you're into a lot of interesting stuff. 53 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.520 Yeah, sure, I you know, I guess you know, my 54 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.680 interest in the paranormal, the strange goes back to as 55 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:16.639 early as I can remember. You know, it was the 56 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.400 seventies when I, you know, I was growing up, so 57 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:23.400 the you know, paranormal stuff just was infused in the culture. 58 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:25.840 You couldn't get away with it and pop culture. And 59 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:29.479 my father was always reading paperbacks about UFOs and ghosts 60 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.280 and Bigfoot and all that stuff. So, you know, I, 61 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:35.919 I'd pick up these books that you'd leave around, and 62 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:38.400 I just started absorbing all of it. You know. In 63 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:43.039 Search of was on TV, and you know, a friend 64 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.360 of my father's hosted a private showing of Chariots of 65 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.000 the Gods. You know, so I saw that when I 66 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:50.960 was a kid, so you know, I mean I was 67 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.159 just I was just born and immersed in this stuff. 68 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.319 And you know, I had some kind of strange experiences 69 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.120 as a kid, which you know, we can get it 70 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.960 to at some point, but you know, there was there 71 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:06.360 was a little bit of a reality to this stuff 72 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:10.479 as well in my life. So yeah, I mean, this 73 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.400 is this is what I live and breathe. I started 74 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.600 writing fiction. My fiction is all about this stuff because 75 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:22.040 it's just a part of me. And when I'm writing stories, 76 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:26.199 it all comes out in my stories. And you know, 77 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:29.920 I guess I've been lucky. Some people might not consider 78 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:34.759 it lucky throughout my life to have experienced unusual stuff 79 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:39.560 that I can't explain very well. But so you know, 80 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.480 it's one thing just to study this material, but it's 81 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.680 another thing when it starts happening to you too. So 82 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.480 that's it. It's it's really the driving force in all 83 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.600 my writing and all of my studies. It's really just 84 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:55.439 to try to understand what is behind a lot of 85 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.800 these types of phenomena, right, right, And. 86 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.680 Why did you decide to write fiction? And instead of 87 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:02.120 like research material. 88 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.439 Well, I do a little bit of both, but I've 89 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:09.160 always loved fiction, and you know, I also as a kid, 90 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.680 I was lucky enough that you know, the works of 91 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:17.839 Poe and HG. Wells and HP Lovecraft, stuff like that 92 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.879 was was what you could find in the in the library. 93 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.040 So that's that became part of me too. And then 94 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:28.680 I read Stephen King, who really took horror and brought 95 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.720 it into the modern era, you know, out of the 96 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.879 haunted castles and the deserted moors and things like that, 97 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:40.680 and that really inspired inspired me to start writing myself. 98 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:45.839 So so I also look at at fiction is a 99 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:49.639 great way to explore a lot of these subjects in 100 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.720 a way that allows you to explore it and you 101 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.480 can sort of go down different avenues that you can't 102 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:59.199 do when you're writing nonfiction, right right. 103 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.800 And the debut your debut novel was entitled The Blackwater 104 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.000 Lights and what is what is Blackwater? 105 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.439 Well? Blackwater is a fictional town in West Virginia. I 106 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:17.279 went to college in a small town of Elkins, West Virginia, 107 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:20.600 and I really learned to love the state. But also 108 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.360 there was a real spookiness about West Virginia. You know, 109 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:31.600 it's still vastly you know, wild and underpopulated, and you know, 110 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.639 there was just a vibe about West Virginia that really 111 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:38.920 captured me. So I invented when I set this story, 112 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.639 I set it in a small fictional town called Blackwater, 113 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:44.680 and Blackwater is an allusion to a lot of things. 114 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:49.240 But at the time there was the government contracted company 115 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.240 Blackwater that was active in Iraq and things like that. 116 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.720 So there's a kind of play on that, and you know, 117 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:56.879 some other things. 118 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:59.360 I didn't know if maybe there was a connection to 119 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.040 the Brown the Brown Mountain lights for some reason that 120 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:04.040 drew me into that direction. 121 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:09.000 For just the name, Yeah, well that's the Blackwater Lights 122 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:14.120 is about that sort of phenomenon, and this fictional town 123 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.160 of Blackwater. There are these ghost lights or earth lights 124 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:19.759 or whatever you want to call them that are sort 125 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:22.800 of what draws the main character into the story. 126 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:25.600 Okay, now you said you had an excerpt you could 127 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:26.920 read us. It was a couple of minutes long. 128 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.759 Sure, Yeah, this is just to set it up. The 129 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.879 main protagonist, his name is Ray Simon, and he's a 130 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:39.040 forty somethingter school teacher living in Baltimore when the book starts. 131 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:42.759 But what happened is when he was a kid, he 132 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.519 went to a summer camp in the town of Blackwater, 133 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:50.439 West Virginia, and ever since that he's had terrifying dreams 134 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:54.360 about something that happened to him at this camp. And 135 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:58.000 the way the book starts is he's his friend who 136 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.199 was also at the camp, who also has had this dreams, 137 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:06.240 strange dreams of doctors and machines and experiments, but all 138 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:09.600 very vague and unsettling, and they've never been able to 139 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:12.879 pin down what's happened. So when the book starts, Ray's 140 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.199 friend calls him and says, I'm here in Blackwater. I 141 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:19.759 know what happened. It was real, and you've got to 142 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:23.480 come see me. So that this little excerpt jumps ahead. 143 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.399 This is a bit of a reveal. Ray has met 144 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:29.879 this this sort of secret society that has a base 145 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:34.679 in Blackwater, and there are two characters, Micah and Mantu, 146 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.159 who are the two men who are part of the society. 147 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:41.279 And when it starts, the revealing to Ray a little 148 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.000 bit of what happened. So it's about a two one 149 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.720 and a half two minute thing. So I'll start here. 150 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:53.120 Micah stood and faced the stove. Let's start with Let's 151 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.279 start with what we know it was the height of 152 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:57.720 the Cold War, and if you knew the right people, 153 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.120 you could get funding for almost anything. Uncle Sam was 154 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:04.559 throwing untraceable money at all sorts of projects, and there 155 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:07.559 was a lot of interest in esoteric matters in those days, 156 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:13.600 the supernatural, witchcraft, extrasensory perception and the like. The military 157 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.879 was at the center of that interest. Ray nodded. My uncle, 158 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.440 Uncle Bill, the guy who took me to the camp, 159 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:24.600 was into all that Uri geller and creskin and bending spoons. 160 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:26.600 He tried to get me to bend a spoon with 161 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.240 my mind. I couldn't do it. My mom thought he 162 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:33.360 was nuts, but he was serious. Many people were serious 163 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:36.399 about those things, including the governments of the US and 164 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.080 the Soviet Union that both of them thought the other 165 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.200 was gaining the advantage, and factions within the governments were 166 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:47.799 obsessed with a pursuit of occult knowledge, in particular the 167 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:52.000 m k Ultra and Bluebird contingents, and the remote viewers 168 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:57.840 at Fort Meade, Project Ie and Mirror. Of course, your uncle, 169 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:02.039 Mantu said, was a socio. Micah held up his hand 170 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:06.159 to quiet Mantu. One group, which formed in nineteen forty seven, 171 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:11.399 was infamous for its research into well, very unusual subjects. 172 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:15.440 They were mostly CIA, but later also NSA and high 173 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:19.519 level military intel. They traveled around the world studying call 174 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.279 technologies from many cultures, from Asia to Africa to the 175 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:29.840 Amazon and Haiti, particularly shamanism and witchcraft, witchcraft something he 176 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.440 would have never believed only a few days earlier. It 177 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.919 was known informally as Project Mirror, and it was enormously successful, 178 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:41.519 way beyond what they had expected. But their success came 179 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:44.639 with a heavy price. The men who got in the deepest, 180 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:48.600 the ones putting the techniques into practice, had a tendency 181 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.840 to die early or lose their minds. The hair on 182 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.279 the back of Ray's neck stiffened. This is about the lights, 183 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.279 isn't it. Mantu nodded to Micah, he's getting it. 184 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.960 All right now, correctly if I'm wrong. But you're using 185 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.639 a lot of real events, real information that you're putting 186 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:10.759 into this fictional setting. 187 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:13.840 Oh yeah, And that's that's that's what I meant by 188 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:20.759 fiction giving you the option to explore things. I think 189 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:25.879 the best sort of scary fiction is stuff that's that 190 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.679 is as close to reality as possible. So, and you know, 191 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:33.120 because this is stuff that I've been fascinated by government 192 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:38.159 research into psychic abilities and the remote viewing programs and 193 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:40.919 things like that. You know, this stuff comes out in 194 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.679 my fiction. So I like to think that a reader 195 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.080 who's not familiar with this stuff is reading this and 196 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.519 might think, oh, I'm going to go google mk ultra, 197 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.159 you know, and then they're going to find this government 198 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.639 mind control program was actually very real. H So you know, 199 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.679 it adds a layer of reality, I think, which which 200 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.679 pull people deeper into the stories and makes it just 201 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:04.919 gives it a lot more power. 202 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:07.960 And I think it's interesting when you deal with things 203 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:10.600 like mk ultra. You see the horrible things that people 204 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.080 that the government is done to its own citizens over 205 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.240 the years, and yet there are people who, even if 206 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:18.559 they know about this stuff, still think, well, that was 207 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:21.120 then they wouldn't do anything like that now, right. 208 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.600 I mean, you know, I did a couple of articles 209 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:31.000 on my blog when the Abu Grebe stuff was coming 210 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.519 out about what was going on in Iraq and some 211 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:36.879 of these prisons that the government was running. A man, 212 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:40.320 I mean, if you go back and look at what 213 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:43.480 was happening there, you know there were they were doing 214 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.799 mind control stuff. It's it's quite clear. I mean, they 215 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.240 The way I look at it is, you know, some 216 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:53.240 of these factions within the government probably thought this is 217 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.399 this is our prime time to start working on this 218 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:58.840 stuff again. And you look at some of the reports 219 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:00.919 from people that were there. They talk about rooms with 220 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:06.080 like candles and just some of these tech, these techniques, 221 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:09.720 these things that they were doing to people. It's you know, 222 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:12.919 I'm sure in ten fifteen years things are going to 223 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.679 come out that are just absolutely mind boggling and rival 224 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.080 rival the horrible things that were done in the MK 225 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.919 Ultra program the fifties, sixties, seventies. 226 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:25.279 Yeah, and you know, we never know the stuff that 227 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:26.480 doesn't come out either. 228 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:27.120 Of course. 229 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:27.399 Yep. 230 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.600 Now, this is this character in the books loosely based. 231 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:36.279 On you, uh, not really, you know, luck luckily I 232 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:40.159 was never you know, subject to government mind control experiments, 233 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:44.399 or at least I don't think I was. But you know, 234 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:50.120 it's it's it's he's really you know the book. Really, 235 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.200 what I tried to do was take all of these 236 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.399 kind of esoteric and strange things that have fascinated me 237 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.159 and to roll them into a story that I hope 238 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:01.440 will be captivating and at the same time people are 239 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.440 enjoying the story and getting wrapped up in it is 240 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.679 maybe it'll spark an interest into looking into some of 241 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:08.200 this stuff. 242 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.080 Okay, what kind of experiences did you have as a kid. 243 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.639 Well, that the thing that really shakes me the most 244 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.320 and I still go back to, is I have very 245 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.799 distinct memories from probably when I was six, seven, eight 246 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:31.320 years old around that age, of seeing lights in my bedroom. 247 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.559 This would happen either while I was in my bedroom 248 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.159 or when I was in the hallway of my parents' house. 249 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.759 And the thing that I remember the most, and it's 250 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:46.960 it's so vivid, you know, for memories from that age 251 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.600 to last so long and to have been with me 252 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.919 for so long really says to me that there's there's 253 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.039 something there. And some of one of the more distinct 254 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.159 memories I remember is standing in the hallway. My parents 255 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.240 were watching TV in the living room behind me, and 256 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.039 I would look into my bedroom and see these lights 257 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.000 floating and then the whole bedroom would sort of start 258 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:14.320 glowing and it was and I realized at this time 259 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.639 it was this this playmate, this invisible playmate that I had, 260 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:22.159 and I would just be so overcome with fear. I 261 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.200 would fall down, like paralyzed and pass out or go 262 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.559 unconscious or something. And when I would wake up, I 263 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:33.879 would I remember getting up and my parents are just 264 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:36.240 sitting in the living room as if nothing had happened, 265 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.120 you know, watching TV. And I you know, that always 266 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.759 puzzled me, like if what here? I am falling down 267 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:48.759 in the in this hallway, overcome with fear and going unconscious, 268 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.799 and when I come back to consciousness, it's like nothing 269 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.559 happened as far as they were concerned. So these these 270 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:00.080 things happened a couple of times, and then you know, 271 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.480 I was so terrified of my bedroom. You know, every 272 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.879 night I would I would just be terrified. And one 273 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.799 night in particular, I remember waking up at the bottom 274 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.519 of my basement steps. And if you can imagine as 275 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.399 a kid, you know how terrifying a dark basement is 276 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.639 in your house when you're a kid, in waking up 277 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.000 at the bottom of the of the steps there and 278 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:25.799 having no idea you know, of course, you know, I 279 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.240 could all be explained by sleep walking or you know, 280 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.519 these sorts of things. But but the lights, you know, 281 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:36.600 that's that's what that that that whatever this experience was 282 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:42.120 and manifested by my bedroom just being illuminated in this 283 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.840 really bright light m and that you know, when something 284 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.879 like that happens and you can't shake it off as 285 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.279 you grow older, you know. I really think that was 286 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:57.039 sort of pivotal and me spending so much time, you know, 287 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:02.360 trying to understand all these differ and variety of phenomenon 288 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.960 you know that fall under the broad umbrella of the paranormal, right. 289 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.279 And I like the fact that you're not like trying 290 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.680 to define what happened to you, You're just explaining what 291 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:11.240 happened to you. 292 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.440 Yeah, that's that's a big thing for me, you know. 293 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.240 I I also I talk to a lot of people, 294 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:21.119 and when I you know, when it give talks about 295 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:26.599 UFOs or or other paranormal subjects, inevit inevitably people come 296 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.759 up and they want to tell you their stories. And 297 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.640 you know, so many people have so many different stories. 298 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.640 And I believe them that they're telling me the truth, 299 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.119 you know, as as far as they understand it about 300 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.319 what happened. But I think, do you do you know 301 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.680 Jerome Clark, if you ever read any of his stuff, Yeah, 302 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:50.599 he's a he's a great writer. And he told he 303 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:56.000 said to me once and and this has never left me. Uh. 304 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.720 He said, we can. We can believe people when they 305 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.920 tell us about their experiences. We don't have to believe 306 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.039 their explanations. And I found that to be a really 307 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.640 solid thing to keep in mind, because you know, one 308 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.599 person will say, well, you know, I met these beings 309 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.960 and they they are pleadians, and you know they're they're 310 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:21.000 they're downloading wisdom into my head and things like that. 311 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.839 You know that that person believes that. But but and 312 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.160 they may have had an anomaloust experience. They may have 313 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.279 had a similar experience similar to someone else. Someone else 314 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:35.359 would explain that experience differently. So I think it's it's 315 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:39.920 key to focus on the experience itself and to sort 316 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.920 of remain agnostic about explanations, because when you start to 317 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.200 grab a hold of an explanation, especially with these weird 318 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:53.880 experiences where we don't have, you know, a logical, uh 319 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:58.440 explanation we could grab onto, you can really get stuck 320 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:01.319 in a rabbit hole or a a reality tunnel, and 321 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.720 then everything's everything. You you start to build your all, 322 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.160 you know, your reality around these explanations instead of letting 323 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.359 the data lead you in that direction. And this happens 324 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:17.839 all the time. You know, people get convinced, oh, these 325 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.480 UFOs are gray aliens. But then when someone has a 326 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.960 sighting and it doesn't fit the gray alien mold, you know, 327 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.839 then what do they do? You know, it doesn't it 328 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.839 doesn't compute. They can't fit it into their you know, 329 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.599 their their ideology. And I think that's where a lot 330 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:38.599 of paranormal investigators out of writers go wrong, is that 331 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:42.640 they start trying to funnel everything into their belief system 332 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:47.000 without actually just just letting the data lead them the 333 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:47.839 right direction. 334 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.440 And and you get people who have such intense experiences 335 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.400 and it seems like they've been told the truth. You know, 336 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:56.920 maybe the beings that you know seem to have abducted 337 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.519 them told them they were Palladians, so they have no 338 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.640 reason not to believe that. Sure, So they just relay 339 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.680 that information as if it's solid truth, not realizing that 340 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:08.960 it was probably a mask. 341 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:12.640 Sure. And and you know, that's that's my that's my 342 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.160 issue with channeled material. You know, a lot I know 343 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.680 a lot of people very sincere about you know, believing 344 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.200 that what you know, with these entities they're channeling or 345 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.400 or are you know, or ascended masters and that sort 346 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.319 of stuff. But you know the way I look at 347 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:33.839 it is, Hey, just because an entity doesn't have a 348 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.599 physical form does not make it all knowing. And what 349 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.119 you know, I don't. I don't leave my front door 350 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:42.680 my house open and just let people come in and start, 351 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:45.880 you know, spouting wisdom at me. So what you know, 352 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:50.279 why should I trust something just because I can't see 353 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.359 it in a physical form? Why does why can't it 354 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:59.759 be you know, a lying you know, trickster And you 355 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.359 know the trickster is such an element of of of 356 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.839 of this stuff that I'm you know, I tend to 357 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.799 be doubtful at first, you know, I'm not going to 358 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.440 accept something. And you know, I think that's that's the 359 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.519 probably the safe, insane and reasonable way to address this stuff. 360 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.720 The uh yeah, channel material I've always been very hasn't 361 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:26.279 it done? Or downright dismissive at one point, And the 362 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.720 only channel material that ever impressed me was Jane Roberts. 363 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:36.680 Yeah, it's uh, you know, her material is is fascinating 364 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:40.519 and it's so well developed, you know, the whole philosophy 365 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.519 and the cosmology behind it and everything is fascinating stuff. 366 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.720 And you know, I believe that the channel material is 367 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:53.559 wrapped up, you know, in this wider, uh, this wider 368 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:58.440 sort of encapsulation of the paranormal, and you know it 369 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:03.880 goes back to you know, spiritualism and shamanism, and you know, 370 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:08.079 really what it is is it's a belief in spirits 371 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:13.440 or entities or or non corporeal intelligences of some sort, 372 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:15.839 which is which is really where most of my research 373 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.839 is centered. So you know, channeling is sort of part 374 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:24.119 of it, but but you know it's it's just again, 375 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.640 I'm not going to take something's word that is telling 376 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:31.240 me the truth, saying with you know, a vision someone 377 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:36.119 might have under d MT, or you know, a spiritualist 378 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:39.759 you're bringing forth the spirit of a dead person, things 379 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:40.160 like that. 380 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:46.119 I'll listen, I'll I'll you know, acknowledge that that maybe 381 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.880 this is something speaking through the person, but I'm not 382 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.799 necessarily going to buy into the explanation of what this 383 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:58.480 thing is saying it is or it's message right. 384 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:03.119 Now. You also, you're you're a mentalist, yes, yes, And 385 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:04.519 do you want to explain to people a little what 386 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:05.440 that is exactly? 387 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:11.519 Yeah. Mentalism is a branch of magic that simulates psychic phenomena. 388 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:18.160 So it you know, spoon bending, mind reading, precognition, anything 389 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:24.279 that falls under uh, you know, psychic abilities. But but 390 00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:29.039 but it's a magical way of creating this stuff, and 391 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.160 it's it's different. You know, I meet a lot of 392 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.599 mentalists and they're not like a lot of magicians. Are 393 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:40.319 a lot of magicians, particularly particularly nowadays, sort of fancy 394 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.839 themselves in the the the amazing Randy or the pen 395 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.720 and teller debunker types. You know, they're out, they're out 396 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:50.720 to to mock and make fun of uh, you know, 397 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:54.440 psychic research and things like that, and they're they're very 398 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:59.480 much materialists, rationalists, and you know, that's fine, that that's 399 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:04.759 not that's not where I come from. But mentalists are 400 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:09.839 usually different, and mentalist I find a lot of them. 401 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.839