WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.640 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jebber. 2 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:11.919 This week, on our panel we have Dan Shapier, Hello 3 00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:12.839 from Israel. 4 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:16.120 I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs and we have 5 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.839 a special guest this week, and that is tomar Gable. 6 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:23.399 I am sorry, I don't do the Hebrew pronunciation. 7 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:26.039 So that was actually fairly accurate. 8 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:30.359 Awesome. Now you and Dan are friends. 9 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.320 You do JavaScript, mostly not on the front end, which 10 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:37.320 is kind of interesting. But yeah, do you want to 11 00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:39.079 kind of give us a little bit more of your background. 12 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:42.200 Sure, we are where you're coming from with this stuff. 13 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:43.679 Sure. 14 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.280 So, as you mentioned, Dunn and I have been friends 15 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.479 for a while. We used to work together at Twigs 16 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.240 for a few years and then we kind of split 17 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:58.560 ways professionally but remain friends. As you might have mentioned, 18 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.159 I am not very heavily into front end development. I 19 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.439 will reiterate the usual disclosure, which is I have nothing 20 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:10.000 against it. I'm just not very good at it and 21 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.319 therefore leave it to people who are good at it 22 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:16.840 and are passionate about it. On the other hand, I 23 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:20.159 do see myself as kind of a general purpose engineer, 24 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:24.000 so I don't really see the distinction between front end 25 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:29.159 back end. In the general sense, engineering is engineering is engineering. 26 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.159 Some of these disciplines require skill sets that slightly differ 27 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:41.840 mind doesn't lead towards well users really and people. So 28 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:46.120 that's why I'm in back end. You might say I'm 29 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:51.519 a back engineers. It's the marketect, DevOps guy, whatever whatever 30 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.599 is needed at the time. I've been in the industry 31 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:58.640 for over twenty years now and for the last three 32 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:03.799 and change have been independent, so consulting companies and basically 33 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:07.640 everything they need, everything except front end. Yeah, and I 34 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.319 kind of see myself as an engineer that solves problems, 35 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:17.240 whether they be educational, functional performance, or anything else really 36 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.000 or organizational at times. 37 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:24.639 I'll I'll just add to that that you know, Toma 38 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:28.280 and I we we meet, we hang out when we can, 39 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:33.919 and when we do, we almost inevitably also get into 40 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:39.719 technical debates. Like we both hold strong opinions, and interestingly 41 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:45.360 enough they sometimes conflict. And that's the best, and that's 42 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:54.759 the best. And I'm usually pretty that's stubborn and I 43 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:59.240 hope also convincing. But Toma is somehow very often able 44 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.520 to kind of force my hand to kind of change 45 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:07.120 my opinions on stuff. So I really am looking forward 46 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.520 to our discussion today. 47 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.280 Yeah, those kinds of debates, in my opinion, are important because, yeah, 48 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:18.719 they force you to really solidify where you're at, or 49 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:20.840 change your mind. 50 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.039 Or just starting to express your opinions. 51 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:28.639 Right, Yeah, I was gonna say. So, we're in the 52 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.919 middle of the political season here in the United States. 53 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:34.360 I'm fairly involved in one of the major political parties. 54 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:37.400 I'm the vice chair of the local the county party, 55 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:41.319 and right, so we have discussions and often we have 56 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:43.639 discussions with people that don't agree with us, both within 57 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:47.879 the party and outside the party. And yeah, it's terrific 58 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:51.319 because you get to have the back and forth and yeah, 59 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.439 sometimes it's you know, you make a really good argument 60 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.680 and I have to go think about that. And sometimes 61 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.879 it's you've made excellent arguments and you've convinced me. And 62 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.120 sometimes it's you know, we agree, but some of the 63 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:07.879 nuance kind of gets threaded out during the conversation. So 64 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:08.879 it's I love it. 65 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.400 I love it as long as it's done in good faith. Yes, 66 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.720 that's really what I care about. And of course, when 67 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:23.079 it's tech, it should be based on actual you know, 68 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.480 information or data as much as possible, rather than just 69 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.800 you know, this is my opinion, and I'll die on 70 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:36.399 this hill because it is yep, yep cool. 71 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:39.759 Maybe I mean may challenge that a little bit. That 72 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:44.199 can be one of the topics for discussion if you honestly, 73 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.000 I think it's not so much that data is overrated, 74 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:53.279 because it's not. It's that many fewer discussions, especially around 75 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.519 issues of how to engineer what good engineering is a 76 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:04.000 lot of these discussions are qualitative almost by definition, and 77 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:07.360 trying to inject data into those arguments tends to like 78 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.720 at this point they view it as in many cases 79 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:14.040 more of a logical fallacy than an actual argument. But 80 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:15.360 we can circle back. 81 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.519 To that it's like lies, damn lies and statistics. 82 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:23.759 It's more like, if you're measuring what's easy, because that's 83 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:26.040 all you can measure, then don't expect me to take 84 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:27.000 it very seriously. 85 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:30.240 Yeah, that that is fair. 86 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:35.040 So I got this list of things that are I 87 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:41.120 guess ideas you guys said slaughtering sacred cows and mentioned 88 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.439 that this is a Hebrew term, but it's it's a 89 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.720 term that's used in English in America too, So I'm 90 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.759 just gonna hang with it here. But yeah, so what 91 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.279 what sacred cows are we slaughtering? Where are we going with? 92 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.120 By the way, if we're just before we start, you know, 93 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:01.160 if if you've got you know, some listeners and they 94 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:05.480 have ideas for additional you know, sacred cows they might 95 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:10.040 like us to to discuss or roast or eat or whatever, 96 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.079 then they should know they can feel free to just 97 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:16.800 post them in the very relevant chats. 98 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:22.079 Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, the more the better. There's always always 99 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.040 something to argue about, I'm sorry, debate and good faith. 100 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.439 About don't do that when I'm drinking. 101 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:34.279 Of course, the fun in not doing that when you're drinking. 102 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:39.000 Yeah. So, so where where do you guys want to start? 103 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.600 Well, the first one, I guess, right. 104 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:45.319 So we kind of put together a list and sort 105 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:51.160 of prioritize it by nothing so well defined as our 106 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.480 hunch at what would be engaging for the audience, which 107 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.279 is to say that if the audience actually wants to 108 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.079 participate and indicate to us whether we're on the right 109 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:05.240 track or they have some other ideas for what to 110 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:09.839 talk about, then that would be terrific. But Daniel want 111 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:11.800 to introduce the first hypothetical. 112 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:17.839 Yeah, so everybody, you know, we all of us here 113 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:22.639 are programmers, and probably the number one tool for programming 114 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.000 is the programming language, because at the end of the day, 115 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.800 that's how you convey your intentions to the computer that 116 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.560 actually hopefully executes something similar to what you wanted it 117 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:42.000 to do. And consequently, people or developers are really hung 118 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:45.399 up on their choice of a programming language, to the 119 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.639 extent that I still remember when I interviewed somebody for 120 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.439 a position way back in the nineties, I think they 121 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.600 told me, if you're not working in Java, I'm not 122 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:03.680 interested in working here. And so it seems that the 123 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:09.720 choice of programming language should be like the number one priority. 124 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.839 It's like the number one most important tool in your toolbox. 125 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:18.000 So it's the number one priority of making the right choice. 126 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.639 And yet it seems that Tomar doesn't think that that's 127 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:25.720 the case. So Tooma take it away. 128 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.959 Well, I want to pile on here, because it goes 129 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.519 the other way too, Right. It's not just programmers saying, 130 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:33.519 you know, I want to work in dot Net or 131 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.480 Java or Ruby or JavaScript or whatever node, but the 132 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:40.639 employers list the jobs that way, right. This is a 133 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:44.279 React job, this is a PHP job, right, And so 134 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:45.960 it kind of cuts both ways. 135 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.200 Anyway, go ahead Tomar. 136 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:53.120 So there's there's a few angles with which we could 137 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:57.440 sort of tackle this, But I'll start by saying this, 138 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.639 I don't actually think there's any any argument to be 139 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:08.720 made about companies listening uh those requirements, because functionally speaking, 140 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.279 when you are an engineer, you may or may not 141 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:16.720 need someone with immediately applicable experience, or you might not 142 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:19.759 be able to afford along onboarding or whatever it is. 143 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:23.679 It's a it's a much more kind of tactical decision. 144 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:28.600 I think there's nothing I've yet to encounter a company 145 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.840 that is about the you know, we only hire for 146 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:37.440 these languages because we think everyone else is garbage, right, 147 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.440 or whatever way you want to put it. So it's 148 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:43.720 a much more functional decision. On the other hand, I 149 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.960 would say that to to Doune's earlier point, which is, 150 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:50.200 you know, it's it should be priority one of the 151 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:53.559 decisions you make, presumably in that in this context it's 152 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:56.480 on a new project or a new company, a new organization, 153 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:59.399 whatever it is. I would agree with you it is 154 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:03.639 the first place, but I would disagree on why that is. 155 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.879 I don't think it's because the choice matters as much 156 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:13.240 as people think. I think it's because it is the 157 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.759 first choice you have to make before you actually start 158 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:21.440 doing anything beyond brainstorming on what it is you're building. Right, 159 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.279 the first line of code you write has to be 160 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:27.799 in some language, which means making that decision, and that 161 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:31.279 is a very strategic, far reaching decision. It applies to 162 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.879 everything else you do moving forward from that point. But 163 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.919 oftentimes the way you make that decision is not a 164 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.919 didactic thought process. You don't go which is the language 165 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:47.480 that best suits my domain percent of the time, and 166 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:49.879 of course there are exceptions to that, but for the 167 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.399 most part, what you do is you look at the 168 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.600 people you have, You look at the ecosystem chunks that 169 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.879 you know best, that match the domain you're you're working in, 170 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:03.759 and then you just reach for the language that most 171 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.519 of them know best, or at least most of them 172 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.519 are most eager to learn, because that is how you 173 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:12.679 get them productive as soon as humanly possible, and them 174 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.039 might just be you. Right, if you're on a startup, 175 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.120 you're going to reach out to the language you're most 176 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:23.120 comfortable in. So it is the priority one decision because 177 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:26.720 it is the most urgent decision, or one of the 178 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:30.120 most urgent decisions you need to make it is not 179 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:36.840 the first priority because it's so important. As for why 180 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:39.000 I think it doesn't matter as much as people think, 181 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.480 there's two ways to make that argument. One is the 182 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.639 sort of high falutin philosophical allegory, which is to say 183 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:51.480 a language is a communication mechanism. Programming languages are unusual 184 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:56.399 in that they provide a medium for communication both between 185 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:00.600 humans and between humans and machines. In doctor expect there 186 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:03.919 they look different and act different than the languages we 187 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:08.840 speak in. But fundamentally speaking, you can get anything done 188 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.080 in any language as a human being, irrespective of computers. Right, 189 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:15.679 you want to build an airplane, turns out you can 190 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:19.399 engineer an airplane in French, you know, or in German 191 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:22.919 or in English. And I'm not going to extend that 192 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:28.240 joke in the obvious direction. But more importantly, though, the 193 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.039 point I'm making here is you can end up with 194 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:34.320 a functional system in ninety percent of the domains. There 195 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.240 are always exceptions to this, There are always domains where 196 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:43.600 one language would have a clear benefit over another. But 197 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:48.080 for the vast majority of sort of general purpose business software, 198 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:52.039 whether web or not, that everyone writes you can start off, 199 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.080 you know, I'll use the example of a back end, 200 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:56.600 because that just happens to be what I know best. 201 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:03.279 You have massive, massive functional systems built in Java, in Python, 202 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:08.399 in o Camel, in PHP, in variants of Php, because 203 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:10.559 you have you know, Wikipedia on the one hand, and 204 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:14.440 you have Facebook and the other virtually anything you'd care 205 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:17.080 to mention. And I'm not even going in the direction 206 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:20.559 of the obvious. You know, people are still writing inkbol 207 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.720 I'm talking about mainstream, purpose built, relevant software that's been 208 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.080 developed in the last twenty years, not in the last 209 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:36.759 you know, sixty, So we're talking Internet facing software. What 210 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:41.320 I feel matters when you're not in a domain where 211 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.679 which lends itself really really well to the advantages or 212 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:50.320 disadvantages of any particular language, it ends up being mostly 213 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:56.080 an aesthetic choice, like which language do I personally love better? 214 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.960 Because if I can, and you know, over a long 215 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.799 enough stretch of time, all systems can. If I can 216 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:09.320 build my system in you know, PHB or JavaScript or 217 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:12.840 typescript or Java or Continent or scholar any of those 218 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:18.919 languages or Python, if you must, then which one I 219 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.039 choose becomes either a functional decision, which is usually the case, 220 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:23.960 it's just the one I happen to know best when 221 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.120 I started on this system, and for the vast majorities 222 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.799 of businesses, this will end up being the stack for 223 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.799 the life cycle of the company, you know, barring a 224 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.480 fundamental rewrite or in you know, the kind of growth 225 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.440 that could not have happened twenty years ago, where you 226 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.440 go multi lingual, if you have a lot of services 227 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.559 in your company or whatever it is, if you remain 228 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.799 a domain specific business for any length of time, you're 229 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:56.159 very likely to be not only on the same stack 230 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.960 you started off with as a matter of convenience, but 231 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:02.759 also potentially running code you wrote when you started with 232 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:06.879 that staff as a matter of convenience. And yet you 233 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:11.200 can find working production systems in any of these languages, 234 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:18.639 which to me says it is a matter of aesthetics 235 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.200 more than anything else. Some people coming, yeah, sorry, go 236 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:22.600 for it. 237 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:27.200 So I get what you're saying, and it's obviously true. 238 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.759 Like like I remember talking with various companies, there was 239 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:35.919 a period of time where I was kind of interested 240 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:38.879 what people was using in the industry. So you know, 241 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.200 when you asked about the front end, and I was 242 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:44.919 asking programming languages, not frameworks. You know, everybody was obviously 243 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:48.159 JavaScript or typescript. But on the back end it was 244 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.960 like this huge variety of things. It might be Ja, 245 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.720 like you said, it might be Java, it might be Go, 246 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:59.639 it might be dot Net, it might be php it 247 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.519 and so on and so forth. Now, obviously all these 248 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:09.840 languages are turingcomplete, and if they've got the appropriate libraries 249 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.279 that you need you happen to need, then you know 250 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.679 you can definitely go for it. And if you're doing 251 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.559 web development then mostly what you need is like basically 252 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.399 h GTP supportant to be able to connect to a database, 253 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:29.120 and everybody's got that. But where I'm kind of pushing back, 254 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:34.279 it's about the fact that you know, like you're kind 255 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.720 of looking at them as they're kind of all equal, 256 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:42.240 when you you know, different programming languages kind of represent 257 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:47.360 at least in some cases, different philosophies or different approaches 258 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:53.039 to programming. Like for example, Go, you might say, the 259 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:57.960 philosophy is, you know, there should be only one way 260 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:02.039 to do something, and that way should be obvious. Uh. 261 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:08.480 If it's maybe, if it's Rust, then it's a system 262 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:16.799 language that prioritizes uh resource uh lifetime over everything over 263 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:20.279 everything else, resource ownership. 264 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.200 I guess I would say, it's safety over everything. 265 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:28.200 Resource safety over everything else. And and you know, obviously 266 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.359 if you're looking at and like I don't know, another 267 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.680 example might be uh uh. 268 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.359 Like you know, like. 269 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.240 C plus plus might be everything but the kitchen sink 270 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:49.559 uh type of a philosophy uh. And and and then 271 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.880 and in JavaScript, well you know was designed in ten 272 00:17:52.960 --> 00:18:00.200 days and and so so they do all represent two 273 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:07.839 different approaches. It's like, you know, poetry sounds different when 274 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.079 you say it in French or in German, or in 275 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.880 Japanese or in Russia, even though all of them have poetry. 276 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:22.960 So the question is don't these aesthetical or philosophical consideration 277 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:26.640 make a significant difference in your opinion? 278 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.960 No, they don't, because the reality of it is, if 279 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.480 you look at every modern programming language ecosystem that's in 280 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.200 the mainstream, the sort you would use as a general 281 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.200 purpose language on the one hand, which admittedly is getting 282 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.680 less and less kind of prevalent in the industry, or 283 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:52.200 as shall we say, a language that's appropriate for whatever 284 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.920 the type of web servers that we all build, or 285 00:18:55.960 --> 00:19:01.680 the type of front end applications that your listeners probably 286 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.599 tend to build, or at least more so than I 287 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.079 do you look at all these ecosystems and what they 288 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:14.880 have is in common is while they all have different nuances, 289 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:17.920 and a lot of these nuances are definitely the result 290 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.759 of this sort of start philosophical difference in how they 291 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:25.160 start it off, they all end up converging on the 292 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.680 same set of tools, or at least tools that look 293 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.119 very very similar. So I think at this point it 294 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:35.160 would be fair to say that as an industry, we've 295 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:40.640 learned that statically known types are useful for code organization 296 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.640 and for code reuse. It is debatable whether when you 297 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:46.880 build a system it's better not to use it. To 298 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.880 have my own opinions, as I say, it's an esthetic 299 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.559 choice because you turns out you can build systems in 300 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:59.799 all of these but with JavaScript, with Python, with Php. 301 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.519 I'm less familiar with the Ruby angle of things. Admittedly, 302 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.440 certainly with Java and that whole ecosystem which started off 303 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:12.039 as statically type you see in the mainstream, which was 304 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.400 not the case twenty years ago. All of these ecosystems 305 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:21.119 have first class typing, whether gradual or optional, piping kind 306 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:25.599 of shoehorned onto the ecosystem, as is the case with Python, 307 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.240 or sort of building an ecosystem and top of one, 308 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:35.319 as is the case with Typescript, or built into the mix, 309 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:38.319 as with Java. But all of them have this because 310 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.559 we as an industry learned that this is a very 311 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:44.079 beneficial tool for code reuse. When you have libraries, and 312 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.319 those libraries expos static types, and those types are known 313 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:51.359 in advance. It makes code reuse a lot easier because 314 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.400 you don't have to reach into the code to figure 315 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.720 out how it's going to behave in an error condition. Right, 316 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:02.079 So that's just one example. Debittably, that's just one reason why. 317 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:07.759 So talking about that particular reason and Chuck you know 318 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.920 him better than I do, or we do. Dage Age 319 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:17.279 has a very contrarian opinion here. You know, every everybody, everybody. 320 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:22.000 It's like, from my perspective, looking at the JavaScript ecosystem, 321 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.519 you can say that typescript has one. I mean it's 322 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.359 possible that they are, you know, looking at the market 323 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.319 as a whole, maybe still more JavaScript is being written 324 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.039 than typescript. But when I look at enterprise companies, the 325 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.279 type of companies you know that I the type of 326 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.680 large scale projects that I tend to work on, you know, 327 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:49.079 it's JavaScript only if it's legacy. Everything new is being 328 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:56.279 written in typescript. Would you agree, But that's totally the 329 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.480 contrary to dh Age's opinion of how we should be 330 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:04.880 developing software. 331 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.359 Well, so there are a couple of things here. One is, 332 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:12.000 you know, just coming at it. You know, Tomer mentioned 333 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:15.119 that he's not as familiar with the Ruby ecosystem. 334 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:20.160 The typing is it's not even hotly debated anymore. 335 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:25.400 The there are type systems that you can plug in 336 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.880 to get type annotations on your Ruby. The vast majority 337 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:33.000 of the community doesn't use them as far as typescript 338 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.240 goes big part of it. If you've been watching, especially 339 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.240 like the keynotes from Rails World for the last which 340 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:42.680 was a couple of weeks ago, and then like last 341 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:49.240 year and when in October, it's been pretty clear that 342 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.680 David is much more a DHH. He's much more in 343 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:59.000 favor of He's moved a lot more toward import maps 344 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.720 and and a lot of the benefit that he's talking 345 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:04.799 about is not having a build step. 346 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.400 Right, if you have typescript, you have. 347 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.880 To have it transpiled the JavaScript, and so by not 348 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.960 using typescript, you avoid that step and you can actually 349 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.079 just have your JavaScript written and have it loaded into 350 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.440 your import map and then just come into your application 351 00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.039 that way, and so you avoid that. 352 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.920 But did we also say that he's kind of opposed 353 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.200 to static typing on principle. 354 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:32.240 I've gotten that impression. 355 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:34.000 I don't know that I could go find a place 356 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.359 where he's actually directly said that you may be able to, 357 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:43.440 and that's definitely the sentiment that comes through. But yeah, 358 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:45.440 and I'm kind of in the same boat, right. I 359 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:51.519 am not a big fan or proponent of having typing 360 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:56.920 built into my stuff, and I think that, as Tomas mentioned, 361 00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.000 is kind of more of an aesthetic thing. 362 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:04.000 I've never really felt the benefit of it when. 363 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.279 I've done it, and so I, you know, I'm just 364 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:08.640 not a huge proponent of it. 365 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.480 It doesn't mean I'm against it. 366 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:14.480 It's just that, you know, some of the other benefits, 367 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:16.519 like not having a build step and things like that, 368 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:20.279 you know, make it so that I look at it 369 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.960 and say, well, in order to get that, the trade 370 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:24.519 off just isn't worth it because I don't see the 371 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:26.079 benefit for it, If that makes sense. 372 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:29.000 It's interesting. 373 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.319 I'm gonna kind of take it back because I have 374 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:39.319 some other thoughts on this particular premise that is being 375 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.359 brought forward because I generally agree that in a lot 376 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:47.839 of cases, you know, capability wise, and you know, the 377 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.119 different approaches that the different languages are going to kind 378 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.960 of push you toward to get a job done. Yeah, 379 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:59.119 you know, there's not a major difference as far as 380 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:01.680 them being able to do the job. One thing that 381 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:05.160 I've seen though, is that depending on what the advancement 382 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:07.720 is and how actively those are being worked on. 383 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:09.160 So this has more to do. 384 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:14.000 With ecosystem really than language, we see that they tend 385 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.279 to converge, like you said, Tomer, But the difference is 386 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.680 that depending on where those innovations are coming from, being 387 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:23.680 on the leading edge of a lot of that stuff 388 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:27.160 is a benefit. But like I said, I think that 389 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:29.079 has more to do with the ecosystem you're in. So 390 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:34.920 for example, I just I just watched last week the 391 00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:40.440 Key from Rails World, right, and so he's talking about, Hey, 392 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.359 we're simplifying the stack, and we're simplifying deployment, and we're 393 00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:45.599 making it easier and you know, and so he's talking 394 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.400 about all these different things. A lot of these a 395 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.440 lot of good ideas have come out of Ruby into 396 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:53.640 other languages. A lot of great ideas have come from 397 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:58.079 other parts other languages into JavaScript or into Ruby. Ruby's 398 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:01.720 adopted some of this stuff, right, and so the convergence 399 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:04.960 is there. But I also look at it and think, Okay, well, 400 00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:08.359 because I have the benefit of these particular things that 401 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.680