WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:13.599 Keep on money white with one thank you. I made 2 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:19.399 full use of my weatherspoons. Sorry, you can keep talking 3 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:23.160 about I made very good use of my weatherspoons thing today. 4 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.559 And I had three cups of coffee, not because I 5 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:29.239 wanted three cups of coffee, but because it's included in 6 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:33.479 my room price. So therefore I had three cups of coffee. 7 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:34.960 I had to force the last one down. 8 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:37.079 Actually, there's no way you're going to let the bastards 9 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.920 get away without giving you as much coffee as you could. 10 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.200 Physically take it. Yes, exactly. It's very British thing is 11 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.719 that if it's there, I'll have it. 12 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:47.320 This is my buffets. Near never really took off in 13 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.600 commercial settings in the UK, isn't it because we'd abuse it? Yeah? 14 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:55.679 Absolutely, ah Man, you go on holiday to like places 15 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:58.320 like Come you know, where they have these all in 16 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:01.520 one things, and we're at it because we still have 17 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:05.840 our British queuing idea, so we don't like it because 18 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:08.480 Germans barge in front of you. But then you're going 19 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:11.560 back and it's the only time you will see British people. Actually, 20 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.040 what you're having for breakfast, well, I'm having some of 21 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:16.439 this weird looking ham that's got to think it's got 22 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:22.719 nuts in a three hard boiled eggs. What's that? I 23 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.760 think it's a waffle. It was this a croissant and 24 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:30.400 then some fried eggs, some hot dog sausages and yeah. 25 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:33.159 People coming back with this sort of literally the whole 26 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:34.159 of Europe. 27 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:34.200 On a plate. 28 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.280 And then they go back again and then say, oh, 29 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:38.400 I better have some music the otherwise I'll. 30 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.959 Get Well, it's like Carvery is, isn't it. They've taken 31 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:44.120 off because that's why, because you're limited on your meat selection, 32 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:46.159 but they let you fill up on the EDGs. You 33 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:48.920 can have as many potatoes as you want because it's 34 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.920 a penny per plate. To them, it's the Carvery is 35 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.079 the only buffet that works in the UK for our mindset. 36 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.079 It's weird. I have to I'm not a great fan 37 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.159 of Carvery. I do not like the principle of queuing 38 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.040 up for food. 39 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:08.080 I just feel that something of the breadline about it. 40 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:11.360 Yeah, there is there's something of school the breadline. And 41 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:15.240 also I don't want to walk back through a load 42 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.039 of voyeurs. Are other tables saying fat bugger, look at him, 43 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:19.759 where has he got? 44 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:24.080 He's feeling judged, But you don't get back when you're 45 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.919 walking back with a tray full of drinks, do you No? 46 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:29.759 No, In actual fact, there's a slight sort of mutual 47 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.800 right because you've got you know, you've only got beer. 48 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.039 It's like it's that if you can get the triangle 49 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.879 of pints, yeah you can do that, yeah yeah, oh yeah. 50 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:43.800 Unfortunately now though, of course with the wonky fingers, I'm 51 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.240 I'm not only as my fielding not as good as 52 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.400 it used to be, but I can carry fewer pints 53 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.759 because of this. You know, the issues are real. I 54 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.280 know I'm speaking to someone with like metal legs now. 55 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.000 I mean you're not really going yeah what leg singular? 56 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.080 But you know it is something that I do feel 57 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.800 the pressure is on me now when I'm carrying pints 58 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:06.240 because I wonky fingers. 59 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:11.000 You did make me go and get the round last night, though, you. 60 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:13.479 Know what, I think it's the most important thing that 61 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:18.080 when you get injuries like that, well look the coffee 62 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:20.439 Soto reave or there is just out of shot. There's 63 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.840 there's coffee being made by our lovely assistant. Yes, it's 64 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:25.080 also the producer. 65 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:25.080 Of the show. 66 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:29.000 I do like that she's dressed in traditional sort of 67 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:33.879 wood nymph outfit, which is excellent. You know, no wonder 68 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:37.479 you're always hanging around Coppering. I like the funny ears 69 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:42.039 as well. She is really a nymph, she really is 70 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:43.599 an elf. Well I knew it. 71 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.159 She's genetically from Lincolnshire, so I think that's how they 72 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:46.960 look like down there. 73 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:53.360 Yeah, extension, Yeah, yeah, it is funny. 74 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.800 You may have noticed that this is a video podcast, 75 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:58.560 and if you haven't, are you listening to it on 76 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:00.240 the audio one? We'll go to the link as a 77 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:02.800 video version that you can watch because we have in 78 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:04.240 person Richard Nigus. 79 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:09.080 Hooray. We actually do occasionally get together, don't we and 80 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:12.280 sort of hold hands and skip about, not usually in 81 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:14.120 a woodland setting, though it must be said. 82 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:15.120 We haven't got any in Suffolk. 83 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.199 We've got loads of woods in Suffolk. We are not 84 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.279 as heavily wooded as here. But I do you know 85 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:28.040 that actually the least wooded county, of course, is Lincolnshire. 86 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:34.160 It's three percent apparently, which, funnily enough, is what was 87 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:36.759 it but three two percent woodland cover at the end 88 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:39.079 of the First World War across the country. 89 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.279 Yes, and we're we are much much higher now. I mean, 90 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.759 if I was a better presenter, I would have got 91 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.279 the figures ready, but it'll be whatever's on the screen now. 92 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:54.519 But you're here because this is well, we can once 93 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:56.040 again say you have a book coming out. 94 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:58.240 I've got a book coming out, you know. I mean 95 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:00.399 you think this podcast has been going so low? Now 96 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.759 we bored people when we first started, because you know, 97 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:07.560 the first book's coming out, and now the next book's 98 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:12.399 coming out, so yes, So the next one is not 99 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.720 just about hedges. Obviously they do feature in it. But 100 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:20.639 I'm going around and meeting loads of fascinating, interesting people 101 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:27.439 who are people who work on the land, but they 102 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:33.279 are people who continue to be those what's the term 103 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:39.759 landscape generators? You see, because I just get fed up 104 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.079 with all this thing that us humans rubbed at the system. 105 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.800 And you know, the wood what we're sat in now 106 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:51.079 you're doing it. You're working this wood. Generations of people 107 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:55.160 before have worked these woods, just the same as hedge 108 00:05:55.240 --> 00:06:01.519 layers planted laid hedges and dry stone wallers built walls, 109 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:05.480 and just the same as reed cutters cut reeds and 110 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.839 use those. And all our landscape is completely man made. 111 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:11.920 There isn't a single inch of wild in it. I mean, 112 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:13.800 do you think there's any wild left. 113 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.040 In Well, there are wild places where, and places where 114 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:18.000 if you go and lay down there you'll you'll die 115 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:22.560 of hypothermia before someone finds you. But every bit of 116 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:24.199 the British Isles has had sort of the touch of 117 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:28.519 man on it. Yeah, yeah, for ten years at least. 118 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:32.519 And we keep finding again, you know, we keep finding. 119 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.000 We don't, we don't find anything, but people keep finding 120 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.920 these sort of remains of campfire sites and remains of 121 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.920 early industry and find out, oh, actually people were felling 122 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:49.160 woodland here years ago, and the evidence of well, the 123 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:50.800 hills up here, I mean, the part of the reason 124 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:53.319 they don't have trees on is because they were felled 125 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.759 for the sort of the edges of the hillfalls that 126 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:57.839 were put there, and there were these iron age hill forts. 127 00:06:58.199 --> 00:06:59.959 People have been doing stuff in all these landscapes for 128 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.360 so long. Now we can't you can't remove that stall. 129 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.360 Which is why I am get rather fed up with 130 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:11.439 the rewilding narrative. Is that you turn a clock bag, 131 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:13.720 and I get even more fed up with like the 132 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:18.879 Biodiversity INTACTNOUS index that's used by Natural England to get 133 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.480 this narrative that we're the most nature depleted country in 134 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.240 Europe because they use a set date of seventeen hundred 135 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:30.920 as that you know what we like compared with seventeen hundred. Well, 136 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:36.759 by seventeen hundred we were already an absolute powerhouse of 137 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:42.079 not only land juice for agriculture, but land juice in mining. 138 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:48.879 I was up the other week in Wensleydale, and you know, 139 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:54.519 I was stood atop a Bronze Age stone wall that 140 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.000 had tumbled and an enclosure, and I was taken over 141 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:05.000 here here's a a Bronze Age mine and so they're mining. 142 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:06.480 Then you know, if you only got to go to 143 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:13.600 Grimes Graves near in East Anglia and there they have 144 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:18.560 got stone age mining for flints. So we who have 145 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.639 been industrial, we have changed the landscape. Seventeen hundred is 146 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.319 such a stupid nominal date. And there's all these complete 147 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:30.879 buffoons who have bought this idea hook line and sinker 148 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:36.080 that you know, and poor, poor old bio diversity in 149 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:39.519 this country. We have just we've rubbed man out of it, 150 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.039 have made us the bad guy. This isn't the work 151 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:44.399 of bad guys here. 152 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.320 And this is all We're just trying to work this 153 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.240 out before we recorded, Well, I've been trying to work 154 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.799 this out for two years. Why is this woodland here? 155 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.960 Because the big ash tree that were sat underneath, that's 156 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.200 quite old. That's over one hundred years old, i'd say, 157 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:02.159 But then the older around it, they're probably twentieth century. 158 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.039 They're probably less than one hundred years old. Yeah, but 159 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:08.200 that was not that looks like an ash tree that's 160 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.200 grown in a woodland, not something that's grown in the 161 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:12.919 middle of a field, because it hasn't got all the 162 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:15.720 marks on the side from where animals have been grazing 163 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:18.399 on it. And so this was a tree that grew 164 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.279 up in a woodland, but before this woodland. So there's 165 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.080 a reason there's not that woodland that was there before 166 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:26.159 and there's this new woodland. 167 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:26.360 Now. 168 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:28.360 Someone had to make that change. And it doesn't just 169 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.000 happen by accident. This wasn't a forest fire. This is 170 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:33.720 all This has been replanted, but by someone who's not. 171 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.080 Here anymore, and someone with a purpose, because no one 172 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.480 ever used I mean, when you think about it, we 173 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.039 were just over the way there and we're watching them 174 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:47.279 silogen and fent and class machinery is taking the strain. 175 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:52.000 When this was all done, it was nothing but grunt, 176 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.159 human grunt. And you know, so you wouldn't have done 177 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:58.440 this on a whim. You didn't do it because that 178 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:02.679 looks pretty. You did it for a reason. And when 179 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.080 you if this wood was indeed planted then and it's 180 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.039 largely older, they wouldn't have thought, well, perhaps when this 181 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.120 is matured sufficiently, when I'm going to fell it, they 182 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.879 will have invented chainsaws. By then, they would have been 183 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.840 thinking that it will still be an axe. So therefore 184 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:19.720 they must have thought, well, am I going to use 185 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:23.519 this for them? Was it for charcoal? I mean, so 186 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:27.240 we know that older had a lot of charcoal. 187 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:29.799 It was basically it was a chemical input. It was 188 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.840 for gunpowder. It was the carbon particular carbon percentage in 189 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:38.480 the chemical rating for older charcoal made it better for 190 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:43.799 making gunpowder than hazel charcoalco. So it was it was 191 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:44.799 an industrial input. 192 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.879 It was a chemical And I suppose perhaps because we 193 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:55.159 know that we've actually got a road in Stow Market 194 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:59.080 called Gunpowder Away, and that was because that was where 195 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.600 the gunpowder factory was. And the reason why there was 196 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.320 not a lot of trees around that neck of the 197 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:07.519 woods was because they chopped them all down and they 198 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:14.279 turned them into into gunpowder and then it blew up. 199 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.159 Which is rather cool. There was a great big. 200 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.360 Explosion and gunpowered away and it's but they had a 201 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.039 sort of canal like system which they ferried things about. 202 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.919 Talking of canals. Here's a very funny thing. Someone was 203 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:30.039 telling me the other day. I think it's someone from 204 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:32.960 the CLA. It was from the CLA in the east. 205 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:38.159 They were telling me that they'd done a talk on 206 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.840 improving bar diversity, on farms and whatnot. But they weren't 207 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.200 just talking to landowners. They were talking like to other 208 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:48.919 rural businesses, and they'd all done all this stuff. So well, 209 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:50.519 how we can improve hedgeros and how we can do this, 210 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:52.799 how we can do the other And then this guys 211 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:55.320 were doing that. Is there any questions? He stood up 212 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:59.039 and he said, he goes, I've noticed, he said that 213 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:01.840 most of the field random of our ear I've got 214 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:06.279 these mini canals. It goes, if we just widened them right, 215 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:09.759 we wouldn't need to transport stuff by roads anymore. We 216 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:11.960 could just go and put them down, the mini canals 217 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:15.879 and canals. And so I went, you're talking about ditches, 218 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.679 And he went, is that what you call them? Anyway. Yeah, 219 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:22.519 it's not really going to work. So he thought he 220 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.000 had so he thought, well he's listening to this, but 221 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:29.240 that it would be a very sensible idea to expand ditches. 222 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:33.840 And he thought it invented a new method of transportation 223 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:37.960 of goods via these mini canals, which turns out to 224 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:38.440 be ditches. 225 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:41.000 He's invented the early industrial revolution. 226 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.159 Again, well done, Telford. 227 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.720 Yes, you get some horses and you could drag them along. Yeah, yeah, 228 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:50.200 people could live on them, get a load of irish over, 229 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:51.039 they could dig them out. 230 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:53.679 Yeah, we could perhaps go and have things like be lovely. 231 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:56.080 We could perhaps go and paint our kettles just to 232 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:57.120 celebrate them. 233 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:57.799 Yeah. 234 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:05.919 Honestly, it's you realize just how challenging it is because 235 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:09.200 the whole the wood nymph has come with coffee. 236 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:10.519 The coffee has arrived. 237 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:11.960 Thank you. 238 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:14.960 These are made from titanium, these mugs are they Well, 239 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:17.559 they're not very good titanium. So I think it's made 240 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.399 from sort of melted down Chinese meg fighter or something 241 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:20.919 like that. 242 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:21.960 You know, Is that also? 243 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:22.559 Thank you? 244 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.679 Amy? Is that also what your legs and I'm made of? 245 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.600 No, it's stainless steel, not worth titanium. Apparently I can't 246 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.000 do that, which I can't like straighten it without pain. 247 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.799 So there's a big plate there. And that's all because 248 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:37.960 that bit turned to wheatabix. 249 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.559 And I think you need to have a baggiar trouser 250 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:42.759 from here on in. That's you want to have trousers 251 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.279 like mine slacks. 252 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:47.120 Well you also have got knee knee pad things in 253 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:47.559 them as well. 254 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.559 I'm dead tactical. These these are Polish combat trousers. Yeah, 255 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:53.960 you know, look what the poles can do. 256 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.399 Well, that's my phone is ringing. The one I said, 257 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.279 I definitely turned off, but can all that. 258 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:02.600 Yeah. 259 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.039 The other reason you're here is so that we can 260 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.600 introduce you to some farmers. 261 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:08.240 Some farmers. 262 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.000 Yeah, so you're looking at livestock. 263 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:13.039 I am. I'm looking at livestock because I was talking 264 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:15.039 at so I come over this way. I'm on a 265 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.559 complete cook's tour. So I've had two weeks I'm traveling. 266 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.480 I've been down to Surrey and Sussex looking at Coppice's 267 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:26.399 woodland managers down there. Then I went up to Sirencester 268 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:32.320 and then I went to Malvern to the Three Counties Show, 269 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.480 where I spoke to some livestock farmers there, and Patrick 270 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:40.600 Galbraith and I did a talk for the CLA there. 271 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.519 Then I went to the monty Lip Festival at Montgomery 272 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:46.879 and now over here. So the farmers I was speaking to, 273 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:53.600 I was looking at how the livestock that we farm 274 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:59.360 are also these landscape engineers. And so I met a 275 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:05.799 fantastic guy who breeds Gloucester cattle and he does it 276 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.919 in gloucestershere and rather than using them for their milk, 277 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:15.519 he produces fantastic beef. And he's fascinating, this dude. And 278 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.759 he's got this theory that because the land on which 279 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.639 he's grazing his cattle is untouched and the Glocester cow 280 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:27.519 is untouched, was never an improved beast. He said that 281 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.679 the Gloucester cows has evolved to live off his grass, 282 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.559 and his grass has evolved to live with the Gloucester cow. 283 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.960 And he reckons that. He had a lovely term which 284 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.720 I wrote down, which if I was a more, if 285 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.240 I had hold your coffee while you do this, can 286 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.639 you quite adept? This is my good hand hand? He 287 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:52.279 called it cultural returning, and he thinks that's what And 288 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.960 he wasn't some sort of new age Hippie Arts. 289 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:55.879 Council funding wording. 290 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:01.159 Okay, well, I quite like it because it's in other words, 291 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:06.960 is that if you're using regional local breeds on local land, 292 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.600 he reckons that they have truly evolved to work on this. 293 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.799 You know, everyone wants to use dexters and belted galoways 294 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:17.600 at the moment in all this restorator thing, and they're 295 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.480 putting bloody conic ponies everywhere, yet on Dartmoor they want 296 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:26.440 to kill them all. His theory is the fact that 297 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:33.240 the land has evolved to best suit these regional breeds 298 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.919 and that they are lower in stress and almost their 299 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.799 whole DNA has worked with that, so they taste sweeter, 300 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.919 They taste better if they're on the land where they 301 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:49.240 supposed to be. So you know, one would argue, for example, 302 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.159 that we keep using belted galoways in projects in Suffolk 303 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.080 and we're turning our backs on the Suffolk red pole. 304 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.960 Should we be doing that because Suffolk meadows have evolved 305 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.960 to have Suffolk red pole? What's your local breeds around 306 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:05.559 this sort of way? 307 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:11.680 Various various Wolsteins and Frisians and you know, dairy milk producers. 308 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:13.960 But the one the farm. We're going to see after 309 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.039 next will be red Pole. So you've got Welsh red poles. 310 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:21.799 Here, yes, because red Pole though, was a thing that 311 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.400 seemed to be everywhere. And they go, that's a Suffolk 312 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.920 red pole. What's the difference. It's from Suffolk boy, so 313 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.519 better than Norfolk Pole, you know. 314 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.599 So just where you buy them from makes it? 315 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.920 So what's the score with this? So I just touched 316 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.240 on that dart More ponies. So someone wants to go 317 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.680 a massive cull of dark More ponies? Who? Why? And 318 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.960 what on earth is going on? Because your mother got 319 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:50.839 dart moles, she's got Welsh ponies, arabs, all sorts of things. 320 00:17:51.039 --> 00:18:04.640 What's you got? Amy? Okay hunting, But there's wildshill ponies 321 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.880 over there, and there are some mid whales wild ponies 322 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:14.480 as well. They're they don't then they're closer to like 323 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:22.720 Provolsky neolithic horses almost the wild ponies there's not they're 324 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.599 so hardy and they are they they behave more like 325 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:32.640 goats than horses. But the Dartmore wild ponies depends where 326 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.279 you are on Dartmoor. They're either completely feral creatures or 327 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:38.839 they're just the thing at the end of the garden 328 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:45.480 almost and it seems the attraction, the thing that people 329 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.559 have in connection with the wild pony as a human 330 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.039 seems to be more about the ones they see every day. 331 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.480 It's been like sort of urban foxes, you know, to 332 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:58.240 a lot of people in towns, foxes are the cute 333 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.480 thing that lives at the end of the railway line 334 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.119 or at the bottom of the garden or something nothing 335 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:05.559 to do with the complete killing machines that they have 336 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.599 around here. So the wild ponies in Dartmoor are either 337 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.240 the ones that are right next to people's towns and 338 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.480 their roads and the stuff they see regularly, or the 339 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:18.160 the big feral things upon the hills. But the ones 340 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:20.559 near the towns are the ones people are attached to. 341 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.119 But they're not the ones I think people want to 342 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.079 get rid of for the grazing and the biodiversity issue 343 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.359 and the hit on the upland so. 344 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:31.440 This is yet again another thing they're saying that they're overgrazing. 345 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.279 The thing that I'd say about ponies is that if 346 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:39.720 you look at cattle and sheep, they'll go crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch, 347 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.720 and they will eat the way through it. Ponies are browsers. Yes, 348 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.240 so they are doing the lawns and ruffs, which I 349 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.759 thought or these people wanted to do. 350 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:53.319 I mean, well, anyone who's ever had cared for horses, though, 351 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:55.960 is that they'll just decide they don't want that half 352 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.880 of the field. They'll stand by the gate looking mournful 353 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:02.359 until you bring them hay or halage or whatever, and 354 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:06.880 they'll ignore stuff at the bottom. And wild ponies do 355 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:08.799 have that to a degree. It's not that they will 356 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.599 be very selective in what they what. They can also 357 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.240 only get to certain areas, yes, and like sheep, which 358 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:19.599 will get to pretty much everywhere. It's I think it's 359 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.960 just that the idea of grazing is an issue for 360 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:27.200 removal of these things because there is a this belief 361 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.880 that it is grounded in some reality that if you 362 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.599 take away grazing animals you will have trees. Trees will 363 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.079 come back naturally, and that's true because everything is trying 364 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.880 to return to forest in the UK, anywhere inland is 365 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:40.960 trying to become a foresting and even our little fire 366 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:41.599 pit there. 367 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:43.880 It's got a little oak growing in a tree. 368 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:48.160 Has planted itself and has started growing, and all around 369 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.400 us weed trees, stuff that's trying to grow naturally. That's 370 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:52.920 what would happen in that field out there if you 371 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.200 took away grazing animals. It's what would happen in the 372 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.039 Welsh Mountains if you took away grazing animals, but not 373 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:03.319 all of it. So if you're taking away grazing animals, 374 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.119 whether it's sheep or horses, you've got to decide. Okay, 375 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:10.240 I am deciding that this should be woodland. This should 376 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.000 be woodland and not what it is now, which is 377 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:16.400 effectively just management. Just in the same way if you 378 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:18.880 said I don't want this to be woodland, I want 379 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:22.440 this to be grazingland. That's just a decision of equal magnitude. 380 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.200 But there's this perception that trees good, trees better, and 381 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:28.240 this is what I don't. 382 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.480 It's just slightly the reason for writing this book, because 383 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.720 you know, we have to accept the fact that our 384 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:38.960 landscape looks the way that it does because it more 385 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:45.079 or less evolves because of farming. I think I've started 386 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.279 off as saying it starts with a radical concept that 387 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.200 Britain is not the tail end of a natural disaster, 388 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.400 it's actually the result of man made brilliance. Bill Bryson. 389 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:01.079 You know, he writes about Britain and he said, you know, 390 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:10.000 by accident, the beautiful, irreplaceable British countryside was created by man. 391 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.960 And I don't like this idea that they are removing 392 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.160 that human element, that they are saying that the pony 393 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.480 that is there is going to be removed. And yet 394 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:25.799 the same people are arguing about that, the same ones 395 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:29.359 who get absolutely when they go and get some flip 396 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:34.480 in horse from what's it called the Conig pony. That's 397 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:39.079 a Conig pony. Cool, but poor old dart mares aren't. 398 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.160 Well, there's this shifting baseline thing as well. It's a 399 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.200 bit like the post war, post Second World War improvement 400 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:50.039 in tree cover. People would look at the lad and 401 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:52.920