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Speaker 4: Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly, flapping his wing,
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Speaker 7: Man, Okay, all right, Thomas, welcome back to the Jay
Burton Show.
Speaker 5: How you doing man, very well? Thanks for hosting me. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Man, So we're taking a brief break from our long
history on occult violence, because one gets depressing after a while,
especially over the holidays. And for a long time you
and I have been talking about doing a conversation about
both the Blade Runner films. So obviously this is the original, right,
we're gonna go through it, and Thomas, if you could
just kind of introduce the film and why do you
think it's worth talking about?
Speaker 5: Lady Runners are really interesting, it's a really interesting brand
and something I don't think people fully realize today because
it's become such a highly rated piece of cinema, you know,
and I mean that's rare for a film the guy
got praise it does other than something like especially let
a lot of science fiction film. The only things that
come to mind are the truly kind of art house
movies like the original Solaris or something like two thousand
and one, which in my opinion is in technical terms,
about the best film ever made. You know, I'm not
saying it's my favorite, but it's a perfect film, I
think in most technical respects. So there's that.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: Blair Runner was neither an art house movie, nor was
it nor is it really made by a team of
what tours like. Yeah, Ridley Scott had Alien under his
belt then, and there was a writing team on it
that had a lot of respect in certain creative niche quarters,
and Philip K. Dick had a following. And I'll get
into that because frankly, Philip K. Dick was a pretty
disturbed guy and his work product is divisive in part
for that reason. I mean, like I'm not saying that
to be punitive. He was suffering from mental illness. And
I'm the last person who it's gonna make fun of
somebody or criticize an artist for, you know, and during
those kinds of things, considering my own history and things
obviously okay, but the source material A Blade Runner was
pretty disturbing, in part just because of its topical motif,
but also things like do Android Dream of Electric Sheep?
And a scannered Darkly. It's clear that Philip K. Dick's
mind is becoming unraveled, and he's kind of working through that,
and and by trying to step outside of it and
describe the ontological aspects of in Man's confrontation with the
modern age. Okay, but Blade Runner was very poorly received
and dropped. Blade Running the thing both dropped in nineteen
eighty two, and they were both later. I wasn't savage,
but it was panned. It was viewed as this hokey,
neo Nowoa our movie that was depressing and senselessly abstract,
you know. And incidentally, twenty forty nine was. I mean,
twenty forty nine was panned for different reasons. And I
made the point before that the same people who claim
that there's no good science fiction made when something's truly brilliant,
like twenty forty nine or Prometheus drops. They hate it
and they wonder why there's not quality science fiction. But
the way to look at Blade Runner, it's really about
the source material as well as both the movies. There's
very deep philosophical analyses they're in, but at base, it's
about an individual man dealing with what the diminishing criteria
of what it means to be human in the not
too distant future. And it just so happens that that
man in question in both films is a blade Runner
who kills people for a living. So obviously this is
very much he's very much engage in a sanguinary way
with that reality of the moral criteria of what is
the human being. But it's that it is somewhat incidental.
That's more for the benefit of the audience and for
tearing the story in a way that's sexy in action
packed than it is sort of the core of the story.
It's not a movie about policemen or assassins. That's not
what it's about. And it's also it's also alternative history,
and I think that's lost in a lot of people.
And twenty forty nine, to the production team's credit, stayed
with that motif. That's why the Soviet Union still exists
in twenty forty nine, and that's important to the story. Okay,
Like basically the setting of Blade Runner is that the
point of divergence I believe is about nineteen ninety two.
Fanboys can argue that point with me, but I don't
want to digress there. And Blade Runner world in nineteen
ninety two, the Soviet Union never fell, and there was
a nuclear war, and the world became essentially largely uninhabitable.
And because colonization had become possible off world, on the Moon,
on Mars, presumably on Venus, and the source material exsels before,
is understood that Venus can't sustain human life. And as
basically what carries the all economic and social activity as
well as this as well as the emergent task system,
it's the manufacturer of human beings. They're not androids, and
that's important. Replicant, android, skin job, all these things are
invoked to disqualify these people, and they are people from
being recognized as human beings. Because one of the critical
aspects of Blade Runner is a philosophical problem with technology,
and Heidegger get into this in part. There's the memorial
aspect where there is no more truly either individuated or
collective memory. There's these kind of curated, simulated experiences that
stand in for memory that diminishes what it is to
be human. Secondly, traditionally man doesn't have to question in
this environment what is animate or not because there's basically
men and women. Then there's there's animals that are alive
but not truly conscious. Then there's everything else. Okay, in
a world of AI and intelligent machines and bio engineered
human beings, what was once inanimate Adder now appears to
be alive, and what the criteria is of being alive
becomes problematic, and even even in a potentially even an
a counterfactual, whether there was some sort of deeply there
was some sort of deeply cultivated reverence for all, for
any and all life that would still diminish what it
means to be human. Okay, and Blade Runners fascinating him
because in the first Blade Runner, Decred and Gaff you
know who's played Byward James, almost there's a sort of
silent dialogue between them about whether or not they're actually human.
You know, the question is am I a replicant? And
then k in twenty forty nine, the question is am
I a human being? And one of the fasting things
about twenty forty nine is that, in my opinion, and
I'm presuming people are familiar with the source material as
I discussed this Tyrrell in the original Blade Runner, he
very much has a god complex, obviously, but his horizon
is quite a bit more stunted, you know, like he
basically views he basically views designing replicant minds as a
kind of transhumanist way of playing god, you know, more
human than human is the Tyrell Corporation's model in twenty
forty nine. In contrast and Neander Wallace, he's not really
a villain. I mean, the methods he employees are villainous,
but the whole notion. What the Ander does is to
stabilize the experience of being a replicant. He insinuates artificial
memories into them, but make sure they are conscious that
these are artificial memories. And in the year twenty forty nine,
in the world of Blade Runner, no human being has
truly personalized memories. They're all partaking of this simulikra, if
you will, that's curated by the environment they live in.
That is constituted by artifice and artificial experiences. So Wallace
is basically doing everything he can to mitigate the kind
of horror of replicants having this sort of stark realization
that what they thought where their memories aren't real. But
also his entire notion is we've he's definitely searching for
what allowed Rachel to to reproduce, you know, and and
and and viably give birth the human offspring, because his
notion is that replicants need to be manufactured, you know,
at massive scale to populate the galaxy, because that's the
only path it's surely obviate, you know, looming human extinction,
whether that event is is proximate or remote, you know.
And it h his whole speech to when he uh,
when he you know, uh, when when the the the
Rachel clone emerges, you know, is that human evolution is
not proceeding at a quick enough pace. And it's neither
here nor there as to whether the hand of man
should properly interfere in that process, because the process is
already being directed by the hand of man and has
been for centuries, if not millennia, you know, and.
Speaker 7: In life, you've around twenty nine thousand days, and those
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Speaker 5: But what if it does?
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Speaker 9: Why stocks last?
Speaker 5: You know that's uh. There's a deep concept. You know
it's uh. And also the the AI that k as
sort of programmed and in every possible way conditioned, you know,
presumably through algorithmic means as well as through interaction that's
then coded into the AIS memory. You know, he's created
a he's crazy of an artificial intelligence that's coded as female,
that exhibits all the characteristics of a romantic lover. And uh,
the implication is that it's such a convincing mimic even
if it even if this AI hasn't developed true consciousness
and isn't exhibiting you know, true qualia whatever that constitutes,
a human being wouldn't know the difference, you know. So
that's that states his need for human connection, you know,
the only the only shortcoming being that he can't physically
consummate their relationship. But then Joy the AI figures out
a way to do that well.
Speaker 7: And and I actually think that that scene is perhaps
one of the most interesting in that entire entire film.
Speaker 5: But I think for.
Speaker 7: The the first conversation we can come back, because I
haven't seen twenty forty nine in quite a while.
Speaker 6: We want to focus on.
Speaker 7: The first film because I love both of them, and
they are made better by the existence of both of them, right,
Blade Runner obviously stands on its own, whereas twenty forty
nine does not in the same way. But it is
as much as you said, you sort of get the
reverse of a am I a replicant versus you know,
am I human the So there are several interesting things.
And again I'm going to assume that you have seen
this film. It's easy to find found it on the
Internet and just a few clicks. This sort of birthed
the whole genre of cyberpunk, right, which is obviously enjoyed
a huge resurgence recently because of you know, the tabletop
game being made into a Triple A video game, but
it's been around for quite some time. And the esthetics
of cyberpunk, which is this sort of incredibly corporatized, multicultural dystopia,
you know, this urban hell hole in Blade Runner obviously
heavily influenced by film noir. It's constantly raining or snowing
and dark all the time. The esthetics of Blade Runner
are really some of my favorite era of sci fi,
which Ridley Scott is responsible for a large portion of
which is the sort of technology of the early digital
era projected forward. So of course, you know there's flying cars,
but they have you know, LCD displays like a microwave
or something like that, and everything's kind of shitty and
horrible and constantly falling apart the vista of Los Angeles,
and it is Los Angeles, which is sort of an
interesting thing of itself. Is this sort of culture of
everywhere and nowhere all at once. You know, you're constantly
hearing different languages. You know, there's an action scene where
they sort of run through, you know, a train of
Buddhist monks. There's you know people, You're speaking every language
under the sun. And what's interesting is even in the opening,
when Deckert is sitting down eating the other blade runner
comes up to him and starts speaking to him in
a language he can't understand. He has to ask the
you know, even though they're technically co workers in a
weird way. This this sort of Tower of Babel esque situation.
He needs the guy selling him noodles to translate. And
interesting detail there. But again the iconic you know skyline, right,
these massive towers covered in you know, screens, and there
are always advertisements going by, you know, giant buildings to
style advertisements for you know, Coca Cola, and all of
these things. It is very much a world where man
has been separated from culture, right, there is nothing other
than you know, your sort of index with you know,
the corporate world, but there's no real distinct culture anymore. Obviously,
you see bits of every part of every part of it,
particularly a lot of influence from Asia, which was you know,
a worry at the time that Asia was going to
take over the whole world. But yeah, that that look
obviously is incredibly influential on sci fi going forward.
Speaker 5: Addition, there was a comment piece to Metropolis. Yeah, and
I'll go ahead, Yes, And.
Speaker 7: It's interesting because the you know, the famous and I
guess it's this is the text technical opener, right, is
the void comptext where you have this sort of indescribable
machine which you know, can test if someone is a
replicant or not based off of their reaction to these
sort of hypotheticals. And you know, the inciting incident is
one of this other Blade Runners has one of the
four fugitives who are at the center of this plot.
He's arrested him. We later find out that he was
trying to get a job at Tyrel Corporation. Right, one
of the other main players this kind of corporate world.
And you know, once he is discovered as a replicant,
he takes a gun out and blows him away. We
find out that these replicants are engineered. You know, they're
not simply you know, clones of humans, but they have
extraordinary prowess, right, they're incredibly durable. The line set about
and I can't remember the character's name, but you know
the sort of he's an ammunition loader, right, They literally say, like,
the only way you can hurt him is to kill him. Yeah,
that's the only thing leon, thank you. And we find
out basically that these replicants are used for effectively slave
labor in different circumstances. You know, some of our characters
are dancers, some of them are prostitutes, others or soldiers
or you know, working ships, but all of them are
used for these sort of demeaning tasks. And so obviously
there is an element of I guess you could say
like labor politics. Right, that's probably a stupid way to
say it, but in this narrative you have.
Speaker 5: Not stupid definitely, where you have.
Speaker 7: The humans who admittedly many of them do not live
particularly nice lives, but the sort of difficult and dangerous
tasks are carried out by human automatons. Now, you sent
me an article, and it's funny because I read that
article and he was pointing out things that I meant
to bring up, and I was going to act all smart.
But if you've been to LA, you'll notice something very interesting,
which is that all of the difficult, dangerous jobs are
done by human automatons. Right, They're done by low rent imports,
people who are you know, oftentimes exploited, given very poor
wages seen as consumable. Right, that seems to be you know,
some commentary being made here, so effectively broad kind of
the plot here this this party of initially six escapes
from off planet onto Earth. They've deserted, they've gone awol,
and the role of lade Runner is to bring replicants
who are you know, malfunctioning doing what they're not supposed
to to justice to kill them basically. And so this
is the inciting incident. Deckard is brought in to you know,
bring these violent fugitives, and we find out that these
these four replicants are looking for a way to increase
their life. We find out, and this is a repeated
motif that the you know, the the flame that burns
twice is hot burns half as long. The idea that
this these superhuman prowess, this incredible durability, this incredible strength,
comes at the cost of their lifespan. So that is
the sort of plot going on now. When Deckard goes
to the Tyrrell Corporation, before he even meets with, you know,
the head of the company, he meets Rachel, who you've
mentioned before, right, who becomes the love interest, and Tyrell says, well,
why won't you, you know, run the test on her,
just to calibrate it, is what he says. And what
we find out is that this woman is a replicant.
She does not know it, but she is a new generation,
more advanced, and apparently it takes three times as long
for him to detect this as not. But shortly afterwards, she,
as we learn from Tyrrell, is starting to suspect this,
confronts Deckard and basically is like, well, you know, is
that true? Am I really a replicant? And he, you know,
he breaks it to her. And the way he does,
and this is something that will repeat over and over again,
is he says, yes, your memories are false. I can
tell you your memories. I can tell you things you've never
told anyone else because they're not yours. This is repeated later,
but there's sort of an interesting moment where you know,
he sees her have this realization that she is doomed.
There's a very small amount of her life left, and
it's sort of one of my favorite little throwaway of
moments where Deckard tries to lie to her. He's no, okay, sorry,
it was a bad joke. I promise you know, that's
not really what was happening. Yeah, just as a as
a way to sort of, you know, save her the
uh and save her the torment of it, because again
and again we see both with Leon and then obviously
at the climax to the film, these replicans talking about
the state of slavery and they say, you know, slavery
is living in fear, living in the fear that your
life is running out. You know, when you were going
to die and when that fourth year runs around, you're done.
This obviously happens in the fight between you know, Leon
and you know Deckard later in the film. Yeah, I
burned through a bunch of it there, But I think
that that is another interesting element that idea of you know,
what makes you free? Can you be free when there
is a finite amount of your life, you know, when
you are doomed? And obviously that is relevant to the
end of this film. But uh, yeah, it's uh something
I wanted to bring up.
Speaker 5: Nonetheless, no, that that's that's essential to the the subject
matter and the stars material. The void comp test was
designed by the Soviets at the pavel of In Institute
and Decord that's and because the Soviet Union mat is
a superpower. That's one of the reasons so much technology
is like analog and wonky. And in the book, uh,
one of the replicants Decord retires, was posing as this
KGB agent who's his liaison. Because the KGB is a
dedicated directorate of their own Blade Runners and the US
and the Soviet Union collaborate to retire Mexas six models
because they're too dangerous to be allowed on Earth. So
that's an interesting framing subtext. I think, I realize I
go in for a lot of like geek lore, but I.
Speaker 7: Well, and there's an interesting and obviously that's not mentioned
in the film, but there's an interesting parallel to kind
of nuclear non proliferation right. The idea that this technology
is too is too dangerous, and so if there will
be collaboration between you know, Mortal and means over that
kind of common cause. But I'll throw it back to you.
Speaker 5: Thomas, Yeah no, and it's you know I one of
the reasons I sent you the article by that appeared
in Instoration. Installation was kind of an interesting rag. Some
of their stuff doesn't really hold up because it's very
nineties coded, but some of it was.
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Speaker 5: E really insightful and I read it pretty avidly in
the nineties and I always felt, and this is going
to sound a hole key, but I mean, like I
mentioned to you, like some years back, I did this
series where on like Twitter and Instagram, I take stills
from Blade Runner, like production stills, and juxtaposon with stuff
i'd see on like Lower Whacker, just walking around the
loop here at night, and I'd be like, is this
like Chicago or Blade Runner? And like people couldn't tell
a difference, you know, And like, I agree with that
instiration piece. Blade Runner is the dystopia that team true
in a lot of ways, you know, and a lot
of you know, nineteen eighty four didn't. And I think
I think Brave New World has some insights into the
malaise and nihilism of progressivism. And Enlightenment ideology, but Brave
New World remains very much a fantasy piece and kind
of this on the nose metaphor Blade Runner and cyberpunk
generally is poignant. I mean, part of it depends where
you live, okay, but if you live in a place
I hear, or like Philly, where I just came back from,
but especially here or in New York City, you live
in this weird collision of ultra high tech and ultra
primitive low tech and this kind of a deculturated geography
and nowhere kind of mass culture. But then there's like
deep subcultural elements that are very authentic. I mean, for
give me for using that term. It's it's very much
description of the world we live in, especially the urban experience.
And you know, when you consider it too, this that
I mean, Blade Runner came out in nineteen eighty two,
that's pretty remarkable, you know. And like I said, it's
it's very much a compliment piece to Metropolis, almost a
spiritual sequel. I'd go as far to say, and uh,
you know, the parils aren't merely optical and superficial, but
it's also it's uh, you know, like I said about
Philip K. Dick, A Scannered Darkly Is and other Really
that that's a great film. And I mean I'm partial
to the rotoscoping as a technique. I know a lot
of people dismiss it as gimmicky, but that's part of
why I like it. But the that experience of of
of real parent noise and not really being able to
trust your own sort of inner witness, you know, and
not really being able to trust what you perceive as
and what you hold dear as being individuated personal memories
or experiences or moral responses to experiences. That's a very
real thing. And it's not not just people who are
you know, kind of live in their mind and are
susceptible to mental disturbances. That's really the experience of living
in an urban environment in the twenty first century, you know.
Like I said, Philip K. Dick, his his science fiction
was almost purely ontological, and in my opinion, when he
tried to truly world build, he came up with stuff.
I mean, granted that this was written to be like
a kind of popular paperback, but he came of stuff
like The Man in the High Castle, which I think
is incredibly stupid and just not persuasive, and there's aspects
to it that are superficially compelling, but you know, really
his strong suit was onto logical aspects of you know,
man man living in in late modernity, and that's the
that's the core of Blade Runner, you know, and it's uh,
the reason why the book is called The Androids Dream
of Electric Sheep. And the book Deckerd's marriage is falling apart,
in part because due to resource shortage and and other
concerns like structural strains threatening the general infrastructure collapse. People
encouraged and not have children, so Deckard's in this childless marriage.
And most animals are extinct, so only very wealthy people
can afford real pets, other pets rather robots or their
replicant animals. And he bought his wife this replicant sheep
because sheep supposedly bond with people really really strongly, you know,
and other animals he purchased for they didn't bond. But
you know, he she can't. She can't get over the
fact that it's it's artificial. So finally, he kills so
many replicants in the course of his job that he,
you know, he's able to accrue in of bonus money
to buy her a real pet sheep, and later the
sheep is killed and she becomes totally despondents. But then
Deckard later he goes to Oregon, to the Oregon Wilderness
to try and reflect on you know, is deteriorating mental state,
and he finds this frog that he's pretty convinced is alive.
But then when he brings it back to his wife,
she finds out that it's a replicant, and he notices
her bonding with the frog anyway, you know, and he
starts he basically makes peace with the fact that, you know,
the criteria of what is a living thing or what
does a human being it becomes somewhat arbitrary when man's
environment is is populated by the the kinds of apparently
animate things and artificial intelligences and you know, uh, mass
produced artificially produced human beings as it is, and he
makes peace with it, you know, and he uh he uh,
he starts having he starts having, you know, clearly religious
thoughts about the implications of these things. And then and
then the NOWLG. Gonda abruptly ends. But you know, a
lot of that, a lot of that's not really filmable
and you know, feliptate Dick. It kind of a kind
of a deliberately confused style because it the well a
lot of stories open up in media arrests and through
the eyes of unreliable narrators. That that's very cultivated. But
you know, that's that's kind of the Uh you can
look at the end of Blade Runner, like I'm talking
about the proper director's cut, not the garbage one with
the voice overlay like people are mean to repelicants because
they looked at him like racist guys did niggers or
like this is abnoxious voiceover in the original release. But uh,
that that's trying to this is so awful. But you know,
at the end, it's like, Okay, obviously he and Rachel
are are going to be hunted, but Gaff leaving the
oregummy unicorn, you know, he was there and he let
Rachel and Decker go, and he's also trying to convey
I see it too, you know now again and in
the in Blader, in our world, like in our world,
what what memories belong to you? And what is part
of the sort of curated, simulated psychological environment that's almost
you know, like man made weather, you know, like it distinguishing,
which is which becomes extraordinarily arduous, if not impossible, especially
in the case of people who don't have the luxury
of a truly examined life. And uh, that's what gaff
was conveying, that it doesn't what evening is that it
doesn't really matter if Deckard's a rebelicant or not, like
he's not. That becomes clear in my opinion. But you know,
it's it becomes an arbitrary criteria. And yes, that diminishes
what it means to be human. But I mean that's
that's that's the nature of the modern condition. I mean,
that's why the only salvation is through God, you know.
So overall, yeah, it's not an uplifting movie in terms
of being a happy movie, but it I don't consider
it to be bleak and in nihilistic either, not at all.
But I'm admittedly a religious person, so that might color
my perspective, you.
Speaker 7: Know, well, right, and you know that's sort of the
you know, the the interesting thing obviously, like when people
talk about this and they talk about it or the
particularly as you mentioned right that I always get the
director's cut in the final cut mixed up. I think
it's the final cut is the one you're supposed to watch.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the final gets better.
Speaker 7: But point is one of the features, obviously, as you've mentioned,
the removal of the the voiceover, which is not very good.
And also, you know, a lot of these sort of
abstract scenes. You know, Deckord sees this recurring vision of
a unicorn, you know, running through the forest, and obviously,
as you've mentioned right at the end, you know, and
this other blade runner is constantly leaving these little momentos
around there's the unicorn there, which signals one that he
was there and chose to let them go. But also
they clearly must be seeing the same thing, the same memories,
which given what we earlier have learned, you know, that
Rachel's memories are synthetic, that they are shared by many people.
It brings up that that sort of you know, burning question,
which again is is answered in the next film.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: I think that, you know, one of the other things
that you've mentioned right that in this world, animals themselves
are replicant. There are very few real animals. Like there's
this sort of iconic scene in the you know, when
Rachel's introduced where she's got an owl next to her,
and he asks, well, you know, is that a real owl?
And she goes, of course not, do you have any
idea how much a real owl costs? And we see
over and over again in the replicant's eyes they'll sort
of flash orange. You'll see sort of like something behind
the eyes that are not real. We see it obviously
with Rachel, with you know, all of the replicant animals.
But one of the I think one of the interesting
scenes is when he's going to track down another one
of the replicants and he tracks down h Ris right,
who is is PRIs the dancer the club? Sorry, my bad.
Speaker 5: Nake lady?
Speaker 7: Yes, And that's exactly that scene because you know when
part of what the trail that he's following is these
snake scales, right, these replicant snake scales. So they go
to there's sort of an animal dealer, you know, the
man who you know produces these, and they're looking like, well,
how did they get the snake?
Speaker 6: Why do they have it?
Speaker 7: And it's revealed that she is, you know, posing as
a you know, a dancer basically doing a for the
sake of YouTube a U And it's not shown on screen,
but it's sort of implied to be this sort of
you know, horrific degrading act with a snake, and you
know he he confronts her, you know, under the guise
of being you know, a union rep for actors, right,
and it's a ruse obviously to get her. But there's
this moment when he says like, you know, have you
been exploited in anyway? And she just looks at him
and goes, have I been exploited?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 7: She's literally in like a CD sex club, you know,
doing sexual acts with a fake animal but still an animal, right,
And obviously you know that is a ruse for both
of them. You know, she is waiting for him to
turn his back so that she can you know, kill
him and escape. But uh, you know, he chases her
out and blows her away, right, guns are down in
this iconic scene is she's just running straight through this
glass window and she you know, is killed, and it
is this sort of Obviously Deckard is our hero, you know,
this is his job, but it is this sort of
that there are a lot of mixed emotions in that scene.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 7: This is a woman who is by all accounts of
a horrible life You've done horrible things to survive, and
Deckard has been just blown her away.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: And so I think that that scene is because again
right the you know, the guy he meets at this
sort of like disgusting flesh merchant literally I guess figure
who runs this? Yeah, yeah, So what do you make
of that scene, Thomas.
Speaker 5: The scene Resora is killed. That that's A. That's an
incredible scene. It's one of the it's one of the
most perfectly cinematic shots.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: Ever, at least in color film. I've been on a
I've been in a silent film kick going in part
to the f that they you know, I love like
ln Scheni and it's a totally different aesthetic and stuff.
But that it's A it's incredibly it's incredibly brutal emotionally,
I mean it's devastating and and yeah it's and uh,
I mean it's devastating for Decord. And the implication is too.
And uh. One of one of the ugliest characters in
the film obviously is the is the the chief of
the blade Runner division. And uh, it's clear that blade
Runners all basically become drunk, so they burn out and
they don't go crazy because they murder people for a living,
you know, and anybody with a conscience that's gonna grind
them down. But yeah, that that's that's that's an incredible Uh,
that's an incredible scene. And it's uh, it's probably yeah,
and like the kind of hyper exploitation of these people
and the way the way it's rational, you know, and
uh and especially these days too, because that the kind
of normalization of the other skin trade and how that
you know, there's a reason why traditionally it's called white
slavery because I mean that's what it is. You know,
you can't sanitize it as you know, this is sex
work or you know, these these are these are young
women paying their way through college. It Yeah, I mean
I think it's and I'm not trying to sound like
sound of some kind of moralist or something at all,
but I it's a it's incredibly poignant, it's incredibly emotionally
charged and and just like the optics of it, it's
one of those scenes where when that was storyboarded, it
it is incredible if that could translate to film in
that way because for those that don't remember, those that
I haven't seen it, Zora's uh, she's actually an assassin,
like that's what she She's a political assassin. That's why
she's Roy. She's basically Roy. Baddy's like rappy because he's
like a special operation soldier. She's an assass and so
she's the sexy woman which is also real buff and
because she's a replicant, she's like as strong as a man.
That's why she. Uh, she goes full mma on decker
and like whoops his ass. But she realizes a blade runner,
so she just like throws on like this plastic sea
through thing when she's like craggly naked, and just like
runs out the door because she realizes, you know, she's dead.
She doesn't get away from this this blade runner, and
she starts crashing through these window displays, you know. A
decker like gets a beat on her and squeezes the trigger,
so she's, uh, she's getting hit and center her mask,
I guess. She crashes through these window displays with these
mannequins and stuff, and then like one of them there's
like artificial snow blowing around that pulling off a scene
like that with uh for with a stunt woman because
he can't I'm sure they didn't have the act where
it's just like crash breakaway glass. It looks totally seemly
as it doesn't look hokey and obviously like she's being
cut up by the glass. Well, well, she's being blasted
by high telebra ammunition.
Speaker 7: Well, and I'm glad you mentioned the mannequins, right, because
this is in like a CD district. So she basically
is in front of a sex shop where they've got
all of these mannequins, right, these artificial people obviously not animate, right,
in the same kind of like trappings of like extreme
deviant sexuality, is right, and she is again, you know,
effectively the same thing, albeit animate, right, being kind of
put down in the street.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: One of the things that we haven't mentioned is that
there is this kind of recurring as these you know,
this party is looking for a way to you know,
remove the you know, the biological clock implanted in them.
Is that they go to a series of different stages.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 7: First, they go to this sort of you know Asian
eye doctor he grows the eyes. Yeah, very creepy scene.
He's in this sort of refrigerator right, covered in ice.
He's wearing like you know, basically ppe and you know,
the replicants come in and you know, Leon rips his
coat off of him, right, just straight off of him
like that. So he's being interrogated while he's basically freezing
to death. And again this is where we start to
see the inhuman durability because he plunges his hand into
this vat of you know, something super chilled, pulls out
this sort of like partially grown human eye and sticks
it on the guy's shoulder.
Speaker 5: It's a cool scene.
Speaker 7: But from that they get the name of another one
of the genetic engineers, JF.
Speaker 5: Sebastian.
Speaker 7: And so the other woman in the party, right, Chris,
who is a pleasure model. She's a dancer, I believe,
which will become relevant and perhaps I'm, for my money,
the most disturbing parts of this movie, but this JF. Sebastian,
we learn a couple of things about it. One, ironically enough,
he has, due to a genetic defect, rapid agent. You know,
he's twenty five, and yet he looks, you know, like
a badly aged sixty. You know, he's incredibly wrinkled, and
he does all of this work for the Tyrell Corporation,
but he lives in this sort of decrepit, abandoned building,
surrounded with his own sort of genetic experiments.
Speaker 5: He makes his friends. Yeah yeah, and it's.
Speaker 7: Very very yeah right, like living sort of like homunculus,
you know, And there's one that every time he comes
in it says like, you know, welcome Jay, you know,
talking to him, and so he encounters Press brings him home.
We later learned that this is part of the plot,
the next step in them getting to Tyrell. You know,
we sort of see that he is this incredibly socially
awkward man and again, you know, he basically says like, yo,
I'd love to help you, but I can't. And this
is where we you know, we see obviously, uh you know,
the the entrance of the entrance of uh what's the
name of Rudger Howard's character, Sorry, I can't We're a baddie. Yeah,
and you know, he was invited in. He's the sort
of ringleader of this. And so from this meeting with
JF through we again learned that he's incredibly intelligent because
you know, JF and uh, you know, Tyrell have this
uh you know, remote chess game right where the pieces
move and he says, you know, you know this he's
an incredible genius and I've only beaten him once or twice.
And they say like, all right, like we need to
get there, and it's like, ah, well, you know he's
he's a hard man to get and basically through the
help of these replicants, he's able to defeat them the
chest and go meet right their father, that the man
who made them. This is a fascinating scene when they
finally get to the Tyrrell Corporation for a you know,
a number of reasons, which is one. You know, he
tells them again, right, you know, there's nothing to be done.
You're burning too fast. The price of this incredible durability
is that there's nothing to be done. Uh, And you
know they go back and forth, you know, he's the
replican is basically offering him suggestions like well, can you
do this? Can you do this? And everyone he's like, no,
I've tried, it can't work. And there's sort of this
really interesting scene and I'll give it to you where
the two of them are, you know, looking at each other,
they have this sort of embrace and then obviously record
Howard kills him. That scene is fascinating for a number
of reasons. Do you do you want to take it?
Speaker 6: Thomas?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that one of my mom's favorite movie was The
Blade Runner, and they'd show it all the time in
the earliest days of table So I saw a whole
bunch and I loved it. But that scene really freaked
me out. It's like, it's really disturbing, you know. But yeah,
it's the what was that line too? Uh? He Roy
beatdy Uh, he becomes controit and then he you know,
he he utilizes Teryrell is his confessor. Yeah, he's like,
I was a soldier, I did I did terrible things,
you know, and Terrell basically was a man solutions. But
you've also done great things, you know, like you should
rejoice in the glory of your life. Like short, that
is it? Short? That it is? And then Ory Betty
smirks and says nothing that God of biomechanics wouldn't let
you into heaven for, you know. And then he kisses
him and he wastes him.
Speaker 7: But uh, And I think that's that's a really interesting
thing because I can't remember what it is. I think
it's Second Kings, but there is a I'm a light
on details. It was one of the kings of Israel.
I believe killed his sons. He murdered his sons, and
the King of Babylon condemned him to have his eyes
put out, and that was seen as the as the
punishment for you know, for you know, murdering your own children.
And I thought, I don't know if that was intentional
or not. I thought that was an interesting way in
which we see the same way that Tyrrell has not
directly killed any of these people, but he has doomed them, right,
he has created these broken people knowing that they will
ultimately you pass away.
Speaker 5: No, that's that's absolutely intentional. Yeah, No, you're absolutely right, man,
I am. I yeah, I should. I should have picked
up on that, given my confessional heritage and my many
days spent in Sunday school.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 5: It uh, that's that's definitely on point. Well it's also too,
I mean Tyrell on the one hand, it's you know,
he like I said, he's a he's a lot uglier
of a character and his successor in twenty forty nine
and he it's like An the one hand, Okay, yeah,
you've but Roy Baddy is is An is an incredible specimen.
All of them are in their own right, but especially Baddy,
But it's like what did you do with them? You
you made him with the knowledge that in four short
years he's gonna die and you basically sent them on
a and like and like genocidal military campaign. So we've
guys got like permanent trauma. I mean, like it's either
of you to see you know, like like uh where
Joy saw young man and the youth or whatever. It's
that he had an awful life and the women among
them or like one of them is Ah is a
political assassin slash prostitute, like Chris is just like a
sex object, you know.
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Speaker 5: Four Doors.
Speaker 8: Four belts that was only three clicks. Where's the last click?
Someone isn't wearing their seat belt. I need to ask
him to put it on. But what if you have something?
What if the others take off their belts in solidarity?
What if I don't ask?
Speaker 13: However bad you think asking will be, it's nothing compared
to what could happen if you don't.
Speaker 5: Would you mind wearing your seat belt?
Speaker 13: No problem, man, Asking your mates to wear seat belt
won't kill you every time every trip, everybody belt up
a message from the road safety authority.
Speaker 5: Well, Leah, no, it doesn't have the intellect of the others.
But he's got some incredible group strength because he lives
a life of of He's basically a beast of bottom.
You know. It's it's like I gave you life for
these purposes, you know, for to be used as things,
you know, at the convenience of of your creators. I mean,
that's not that's not just. You know, Tyrrell is not
a just god man. You know, he's a he's a
he's not a guy at all. He's a selfish man
playing and I mean that's why Betty Beatty sees that.
But then he makes peace too with with his own
with his own imminentitim eyes. And then he also he
reflects on like what positive there is to derive? I
mean his last words at Decker. You know, I've seen
things you wouldn't believe, like no queman who believe you know,
I've been on board assault ships. Uh, you know, uh,
in proximity the constellations you see in the night sky.
You know I've seen Uh, I've seen you know, I've
seen metallic structures burn up in the atmosphere of alien worlds.
You know. I I've seen stuff in four short years
that you know, uh, a great conquer and you know
who lived, who lived a biblically long life wouldn't have seen,
you know, and uh, he makes peace with it. I
mean that's that's not cornball stuff. I mean everybody, everybody
goes through some period of terror generally. I mean, if
you're well adjusted, then if you know you can find
peace and your spiritual path. It happens when you're you know,
a young man or a young woman. But everybody goes
through that terror. Man that own you know, Jesus, I'm
gonna die someday. But then you know, you you make
peace with it, then it's okay, and it's not it's
not scary anymore. You know. I don't want to sound
childish about it, but I you know, I think that's poignant.
And and that's why I don't think Blade Runner is
like a downer of a movie. Even though it's intense
and heavy, you're not particularly happy.
Speaker 7: Well, and that's why. And obviously I want to contrast
that the Death of the Baddie and uh and press
because Decker goes back to your Jeff's house while you
know that this is happening, and he he comes into
this sort of you know, nightmare toy shop, right with
all of these you know, kind of like half finished people,
and Tris, who's you painted her face to look like
a doll, Is is frozen, you know, among those, and
she she comes out to attack Deckard and said you know,
she was a dancer, and she moves like it, right,
She's constantly like you know, tumbling and pivoting out of
you know, out of frame, and Deckard shoots her, but
it's not clean. It's this kind of horrific thing where
he shoots her once and she's just flailing on the ground,
you know, like almost not even like her body is
on the ground. She's just sort of like pulsating, you know,
throwing her limbs around, and Deckard you know, shoots her
a number of times and she's you know completely kind
of covered in blood. And then when when Addie comes
back in, he he sees her on the ground and
you know immediately goes to to fight with Deckard. But
throughout this whole thing, we see that he has sort
of a bizarre honor to him.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 7: For instance, he you know, he says, he knocks the
gun out of his hand and says, all right, that's
not fair. You know, he says, like, all right, I'm
gonna give you. I'm gonna give you time. I'm gonna
give you time to escape. And so they have this
sort of nightmarish fight. Right He's so strong, he's you know,
reaching through walls and grabbing him. You know, Deckard is
smashing him with you know, any object he can find,
and there's a moment where you know, he pulls Decker's
hand through a wall with the gun still in it,
and he breaks his fingers, you know, saying this is
for each each one of my friends. And eventually this
fight spills out towards you know, at the top of
this building. It's dumping rain and deckerd obviously has a
broken hand, and till finally, you know, he's holding off
the side of the building, you know, as Beatie looks
down at him, and he slips and Beatie catches him,
pulls him back on. And this is where we get,
as you've mentioned, right, the iconic you know monologue, as
his his life is running out, he is going to
be dead in a moment, right holding the holding the dove,
you know, to to decord as he's kind of sitting
there lapsed. And you know you've mentioned that monologue. It's
a great one. And that phrase, you know, memories lost
straight like tears in the rain. The idea that it's
just kind of dispersing into nothing, I think is a
really it's a poignant phrase, one often referenced, and I
think that again to your point, like, this is not
a happy movie, it's not, you know, a feel good film,
but it's by no means nihilistic. Right, there is the
death of Rikor Howard, and this is beautiful, both in
how it shot and also that he is at this point,
you know, fully come to terms with the fact that
there is nothing more to be done. You know, he is,
you know, done something impossible. He has you know, come
to earth and he has you know, pursued every lead,
and he has also avenged himself, right he is. He
has both made peace with and murdered the man who
doomed him and his friends this hell's existence. But that
being done, you know, it's all been brought to ruin.
He has made peace with it. And I think that's
a really beautiful moment.
Speaker 5: No, hugely, That's why. Yeah, that's why I push bag
on people who say it's a quote depressing movie. It's
not at all. I mean it's it's uplifting and it's sad.
It's but you know, light life is tragic, and any
serious meditation on the human condition it's going to be tragedy.
En like movie. A movie i'm like devastating is The
Deer Hunter, which is a great, great film and it's
probably it's probably my favorite warror movie, but I I
can't watch it often because it upsets me so much.
You know, Martyrs is like that too. Murders is more
of a straight up horror movie, but it's it's it's
incredibly depressing, and Blade Runner is not. That's not the
mood of Blade Runner at all, you know, But like
I said, I think this isn't some cheap moral flex
like I mean, suggesting better than anybody or something. I
think if you've got a religious orientation, it changes your
interpretation of it's no go ahead.
Speaker 7: And that's what I think is so interesting because you've
mentioned this other Blade Runner Gaff you know, a number
of times. Right, Obviously you agree that the he is
you know, despite being almost completely uh you know, ununderstand
impossible to understand through a large portion of the movie.
That's how we would say it in English. But what's
interesting is that they're you know, they're sitting there right,
he's thrown his gun back, and you know, he reminds
him about Rachel, right, and Decker says something along the
lines of like, oh, well, you know she's gonna die.
He says, well, who is it? Yeah, like, yeah, sure,
it's it's a short life. But like that's the same
situation that you know, you and I are in, which
again leads credence to you know, the you know, the
the Unicorn or Agami left at the end that Gaff
knew he was running and was sort of saying like, yeah,
you're like, I'm not going to come after you. That
was a really powerful moment, a really interesting one. I
love this movie genuinely. The visuals of it are great.
It's incredibly atmospheric film. The music is we have not
mentioned incredible. I will listen to this soundtrack quite often
while I'm writing. It's great.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 7: If for whatever reason you haven't seen it, fix that,
go watch it.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: The second one is I think referenced more in current
right wing culture because it does speak to an existence
shared by many sort of sensitive young men. Right k
has become iconic for that. This movie is very very good.
Speaker 5: Yes, political, which is fine. I mean it's again. Yeah,
I didn't mean to tangentially.
Speaker 7: Oh no, it's important to it, important to reference it.
But I figured I don't want to take two great
films cram them into one hour. Oh no, I'd rather
give them their due.
Speaker 5: I believe no that the sound of You is incredible.
I yeah, I played a lot too. I'm a film
sound rag buff. But Vangelius I think he also did
Cheeriots to Fire. I don't care if that movie it's
like I can It's like a whatever movie. To me.
It's just like Oscar season fodder. But you know that
that iconic Chariots of Fire like piano he's I believe
he wrote that too, you know he was, Yeah, just
a remarkable composer. And yeah, the the optics too, like Gaff,
you know, for a very early the movie, like Chris's
makeup that's become not just iconic and like cyberpunk lore,
like the optics of it are timeless and Gaff it's
uh he's wearing uh, he's wearing like police body armor,
but he's also got like a cholo hat on and
he's a got like a top coat that's obviously Asian,
you know, like it Uh, it's just like a cool style,
you know, like there there's a cool factor. And the
costume designs were dope. And the Blade Runner guns that
the that the Blade Runners carry, that's this bizarre four
barrel handgun that was marketed off to the police officers.
I can't remember what the main effects or was, but
they mocked an bulldog maybe maybe yeah, yeah, I think
it was as market It is like an odd duty
weapon of police, but it's uh so it's like a
weird looking gun that had a short lifespan in the market.
But uh so, I mean that's like another like the
prop department, the costume department, just like Freeing Kilted in
this movie, you know. And uh I like close this
suff so I like that kind of shit. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I mean we do. We do see as well,
the sort of like you know, body modification, right, and
it's never explicitly you know it like, it's never explicitly stated.
But you see these these characters or these you know,
background characters with you know, visors over their head. In
the idea is that there's some hybrid of digital and human,
which you know, a cyberpunk. As a genre continues on,
that will become more of a feature. Uh, I think
it is. It is kind of interesting to see so
many of the trappings of kind of you know, optimistic
earlier sci fi put in this sort of you know,
we could say post apocalyptic or dystopian world, right, like
the the Jetson's flying cars, yeah, you know, and it's
funny to compare because they're flying through these cities and
there's these giant plumes, which again is very iconic from
you know, natural gas or something being let off, you know,
in this kind of industrial hell hole, you know, everything
looks dirty and shitty, like even down to the point
where there's a it's just a throwaway scene, but you
know you see Deckords just sitting outside of you know
that the house or the apartment rather where the final
confrontation takes place, just in his car, and you know,
you see a spotlight and the police are hovering over
him and they're basically like roughing them up. They're like,
all right, we're going to arrestue. And you know, he
reached out his badge and like, all right, have a
nice day. But you even see there that there's like,
you know, despite just the visuals of how shitty this is,
it's like the police are running like a protection rackets,
like scooping people up and you know, for bullshit charges.
And again I think it's just this like incredible like
malaise and decline, right like this is a dying world.
You know, this is a you know, a dying species really,
and yet Nonetheles there is like a redemptive hope in
that right that despite the fact that you are and
this again comes to the second movie, that despite the
fact that you are at every level artificial and produced,
you know that they have gotten into your brain, you
can still one, to quote Alex Jones, break the conditioning. Right,
there is free will, and also there is something redemptive
in that, right, there's some sort of hope in that,
and I think that's what's incredibly powerful, right as people
who are you know, sort of the victims of generations
of albeit not like artificial humanity, but sort of like
social engineering to people on.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, and that's yeah, that's why it's it's such
That's why I sent you the instiration article, you know, because,
like I said, I read it at the time when
I was a young guy, you know, like a college
age dude, and that I mean I was I've got
a bias in favor of blade Runners. It's not the
phrases the Blade Runner anyway, but I found that that
that peace stayed with me for literally decades because I
I it's it's very poignant, man, and very relevant to
the historical situation. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Well, just just one other thing that I do want
to mention, uh, when talking about this, is that there's
and this is stupid, but I feel like I should
bring it up. A large part of the current conversation
about this, it's like, oh wow, because there's the scene. Obviously,
you know, Deckerd and Rachel fall in love, but uh,
Deckard does not adhere to modern concepts of the appropriate
way to deal with women. That whole dialogue is complete
and totally retarded. It is not worth your time. There's
quite a quite a big deal of it, you know,
because he does some kind of you know, movie leading
man fashion, you know, push her up against the wall
and like repeat after me, like you know you want
to kiss me or whatever all of the commentary and
that is so stupid. There is nothing implied in this
that their relationship is anything other than you know, perfectly
fine and normal. And in fact, he's basically throwing away
his life to live on the lamb with her so
that they can be in love together. I had to
mention it because if you google this movie, that's what
you will see. That's retarded. That is not what this
movie is about. There's a really deep, fascinating story to
be found here, So highly recommend it, Thomas. I'll throw
it to you for I guess concluding comments.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, exactly. That that's what I call virgin commentary,
like like comments by virgin too, Like I've never like
seen a woman naked or like not on the internet
or or in anime, and who like don't leave their
house like the real dynamicistween men and women is not
the way virgins think it is. But uh no, I
Blade Runner is. Uh it's probably about my favorite film
of all time. And I'm I'm like a huge film fag.
So that says something like not not as like my
opinion is so heavy. But I mean I watch a
lot of freaking movies. Okay, I mean it's basically like
they have my life watching movies, and uh, Blade Runner
never gets old, so I and and yeah, I I
mean obviously is the reason why, despite the fact I'm
not a fiction writer, the reason I write science fiction
is because it's its own thing and it science fiction
is intrinsically political and intrinsically concerned with historical situatedness and
and and the human condition and missed historical phenomena, you know.
And uh, the Blade Runner, I think is about the
most relevant science fiction piece I can I can think
of a dark cause as well as being a compliment
piece to Metropolis. Like I said, and Fritz lang is,
I I highly reckon everything Fritz Lange did, but especially
m that's literally the title of film the letter M
and M Metropolis. And yeah, Blade Runner is top notch
man just just a triumph of a cinema. And I
agree with Walker Percy, cinema is the sovereign American art
form and Blade Runner is a true triumph of the
art form. So there's that two.
Speaker 7: Yeah, tune in next time for a discussion of twenty
forty nine, which actually I really like that movie, but
I think I've only seen it twice, so I'll be
rewatching it. Blader Runner is one of those films that
I actually didn't see for a I think I didn't
see it till I was nineteen or twenty, like fairly late.
But I've seen it a lot. I've seen it probably
five or six times since then and really love it,
like truly, it's one of my favorite films. So I'm
excited to talk about talk about the sequel with you
next week, Thomas. Obviously, i'll include all of your links
in the description. You go check out the substack your
you know your Your Mind phaser has been It's always good,
but it's been particularly good recently, so I recommend that
as well as our collaboration Radio Free Chicago, which We'll
probably need to record another episode sooner or later, so
make sure to check out Thomas's links in the description.
As far as my stuff, Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
anywhere you want to listen to podcasts, this is what
I do a full time podcaster. I really appreciate your
support launching right as this being my full time job,
has been, you know, a leap of faith, and you
guys have supported me. I really appreciate that, especially over
the holidays. And as part of that deal, right, you
throw me a few bucks a month, you get the
episodes early in ad free. It's like, yeah, I think
it comes out to like fifteen cents an hour for
my content. Right, if you want to pay for it,
that's not bad if I'm gonna be honest, So check
it out. You'll get it without ads, which I know
is annoying, but you know it pays the bills. Check
out our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness Coaching JD is a
huge help here, so make sure if you're interested in
losing that a few pounds you put on over the holidays,
check him out again. Thomas Man, it's a ton of
fun to talk with you man.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you buddy.
Speaker 7: Everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't last forever.
Speaker 6: Good night.
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she's clutching the edge while my little one is lapping
us in brown Thomas's spraying the perfumes around like air fresheners.
We do Harvey Nichols and always Reese m and s.
She gets her brows done at Edvard and pink talk
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a handsol and Gretel Panto at the Meal theater. Later
I drop her home and Mom says Thank you Pet.
Best day out in Ages. Search Dundrum Town Center and
make a day of it this Christmas.
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