WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:04.679 Hello everybody, Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, comrades and friends. 2 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.320 Happy to be back again so soon with another special 3 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:11.839 interview episode of History Impossible. An impossible interview as I 4 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:13.720 used to call them, but we're doing them a lot 5 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:16.920 more often now, so I guess they're not that impossible 6 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:21.280 after all. Sorry for the dumb joke, but yes, we 7 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:24.280 are here today doing another interview with a fellow writer 8 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:28.039 from Kinrath Publishing, who, again I really want to thank 9 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:32.399 for getting this really cool project of theirs off the 10 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:34.439 ground and letting me be a part of it, letting 11 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:36.200 all of us be a part of it who have contributed, 12 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.759 and in this particular case, we're talking with Isaac wa Lauer, 13 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:44.679 who contributed a very cool story about a very interesting 14 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:49.079 and important but underappreciated figure in the Revolutionary War, very 15 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:51.520 much up my alley. In terms of the kind of 16 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:54.840 stuff History Impossible covers, we'll be getting into that in 17 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:58.119 the interview itself here in a couple of minutes. But 18 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:01.439 I just want to also thank everybody who supports this 19 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:05.480 show over on Patreon dot com or over on substack 20 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:09.400 as paid subscribers, people like John Andre Saith and Mike 21 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:14.000 maylimit my longtime, very very generous supporters over on Patreon. 22 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.120 If you want to support the show like them, please 23 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:21.200 head over to patreon dot com, slash history Impossible oristory 24 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:25.280 impossible dot substack dot com and make whatever donation you 25 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:29.640 feel comfortable making. Anyway, that's enough of all that. I 26 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:32.480 really appreciate all the support. Please spread the word about 27 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:37.000 the show, and let's get into some really fun impossible 28 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:39.799 history with this interview with Isaac Wilauer. 29 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:42.840 I'll let me to tell you what you would have 30 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.879 seen and heard. If we'll not be pleasant listening, if 31 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:47.719 you were at lunch, or if you have no appetite, 32 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.400 now is a good time to switch auth the radio. 33 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.560 An ancestor of mine maintained that if you eliminate the impossible, 34 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.000 whatever remains, however. 35 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:04.519 Can come. EVA mustn't Banjie. 36 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:05.280 I want to it. 37 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:10.800 You don't general. I'm GOSPI you. 38 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:14.199 I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace 39 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:15.199 is inside. 40 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:18.439 I don't see any laughing dream. I feel a laugh 41 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:19.120 in the night. 42 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:19.560 Wore. 43 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:23.759 On. 44 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:28.000 I wish you pressure to kill. I wish you were 45 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:28.759 asure together. 46 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.199 Some say the world will end empire. 47 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:35.639 Some stay a night from what I've tasted of desire, 48 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:38.560 I hold with those of favor fire, but if. 49 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:41.439 It had to perish twice, I think I know enough 50 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:43.319 of hate to say that the. 51 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.360 Destruction nights is also great and look sufficed. 52 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:55.240 This is history or possible. 53 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:02.919 I am here today with Isaac Willure. I hope I 54 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:06.000 got the pronunciation of your last name, right, man will 55 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:11.120 Our Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, sorry, I was gonna say 56 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.240 that's not a good start. That's good, But yes, I 57 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:17.639 am with Isaac Willar and he is a corporate analyst 58 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:20.319 and writer who has appeared in various publications, including The 59 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.360 New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Daily Wire, among others. 60 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.599 And we're going to try really hard to stay focused 61 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.800 because last time we met we were talking for like 62 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:31.479 two and a half hours about all sorts of things. 63 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:35.360 But I think it really does come down to, you know, 64 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:37.479 we have some shared interest in politics and history and 65 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:42.520 so forth. And you wrote a really good piece for Kinrath, 66 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.960 similar to the one that David McGarry wrote and the 67 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.879 one that I wrote, and I just, you know, happy 68 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.280 to talk to you guys about your work, and in 69 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.319 this particular case, you talked about a man who as 70 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:56.919 the channel you just turned me on too, over on 71 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:02.479 YouTube called Forgotten Lives, just covered coincidentally James Armistead Lafayette, 72 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:06.319 and I was thinking we could just sort of get 73 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:09.120 into that, but I just wanted to let you introduce 74 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:11.879 yourself to start out, discuss your work that you've done, 75 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.240 and also I really wanted to get your just sort 76 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.560 of interested history nailed down, because I mean, this one 77 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.839 story is very interesting, but I feel like the audience 78 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:23.040 would benefit from having a broader sense of, like what 79 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.279 you're interested in in history too, So I'll let you 80 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:26.120 take it away from here. 81 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.439 Yeah, sure, well, thank you for thanks for having me Alex. 82 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:30.360 This is this is fun, and yeah, we're gonna try 83 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:31.720 and not go two and a half hours like we 84 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:33.480 did last time, although we could do so easily. 85 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:33.839 Sure. 86 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:35.519 So, I mean, in terms of what I do, I mean, 87 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.560 I work for what's called a proxy consulting firm, so 88 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:40.800 we work with a lot of shareholders. Our clients range 89 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:43.879 from ordinary investors to state pension funds, So I exist 90 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:46.639 a lot in that kind of finance business world, and 91 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:49.879 kind of the hope of this was to get completely 92 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:52.160 outside of that world and go do something completely different 93 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.600 because Aside from obviously the world of finance, the world 94 00:04:56.680 --> 00:04:59.759 of proxy, everything, all of that stuff, questions about ESG 95 00:04:59.879 --> 00:05:02.120 and Ei. Outside of that, I do have an interest 96 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.600 in history, right. I think apparently World War Two is 97 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:07.879 much too controversial to be interested in anymore, and it's 98 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:10.439 kind of boring. Every guy who's over the age of 99 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:11.199 like twenty. 100 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.399 Five is into that sort of thing age lowering. It's 101 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:15.879 a right, yeah, Like what's the Shane Yellis joke. It's like, 102 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:17.639 once you hit thirty and you start like in World 103 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:18.519 War two, you're gonna be. 104 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:20.800 Like, all right whatever. Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, 105 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:22.959 that's kind of boring. Binary, So I decide we'll go 106 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.920 back to the Civil War. Oh, turns out everyone in 107 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:28.000 the United States apparently still really has deep feelings about that, 108 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:29.360 So we'll go back to the rest. 109 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:31.480 It's the nerdiest part too, that's true. 110 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:33.319 Yeah, No, it's really bad. I mean, I love the 111 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:35.079 Civil War. I love learning about the Civil War. But 112 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.199 it's let's not pretend like it's not. It's just way 113 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.279 too many people, like their families were involved, and so 114 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.560 they still think that their opinions have to be guided 115 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:45.360 by that. That's really strange. So we went back to 116 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.959 the American Revolution because that's pretty much universally considered positive 117 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:51.319 if you're not a brit and if you are, well whatever, 118 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:55.000 I don't care. So that's pretty much what this is at. 119 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.439 But I think my interest in the American Revolution is 120 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:01.319 is a couple of points. One it is it was 121 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.639 the conflict that fundamentally shaped our nation in its very 122 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:07.000 early days, and it had to and it very much 123 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:08.959 interacts with I'm not gonna say more than the Civil 124 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:12.439 War obviously, but similarly to the Civil War, inter intersects 125 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.560 with some of these questions around race, how race impacts society, 126 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:16.800 that sort of thing. 127 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.519 Are you saying that that the Revolution was an intersectional conflict? 128 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.959 I contract prevents me from using the I word, but 129 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.639 what one could say it it engages in different sectors 130 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.480 that are close to one another. Yes, but yeah, I 131 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.319 think the Revolutionary wars fascinating for a variety of reasons, 132 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:41.560 including that, and also it introduces you to this insane 133 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.720 plethora of very interesting characters, like I mean, including the 134 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.360 big names, right Washington, Rush, Adams, Jefferson, these kind of people, 135 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.279 but also people like James Armistead Lavia, who we're about 136 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:53.079 to talk about, right, Yeah. 137 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:55.199 And it is interesting and we're gonna get into this 138 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.680 a little bit later because I think the big theme 139 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.639 in your piece that I think is a big theme 140 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.800 in the American Revolution that I do appreciate it. When 141 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:05.160 it's talked about, I think it gets a little too 142 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.560 moralistic sometimes depending on the source. But the contradictions at work, 143 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.800 the moral contradictions, the political contradictions, the you know, you could, 144 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.519 I sort of am fascinated by the revolution as a 145 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:23.079 conflict or moment even of history in general, where contradiction 146 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.720 kind of defined it at its subtext throughout. It didn't 147 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.199 take away from the significance or the importance or the 148 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.160 greatness of a lot of it. In fact, I would 149 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.839 argue even that the contradictions that we found is what 150 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:38.639 makes America maybe not great, but unique in like world history, 151 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:39.639 especially at that time. 152 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:41.519 Yeah, I can certainly concur with that. 153 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.480 And I mean it didn't spiral out of control either 154 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.319 the way the French Revolution no, actually worked, Yeah, exactly, 155 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:50.240 which is an interesting thing, right, It's very fascinating. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 156 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:53.959 The trend with movements that are really sustained by actions 157 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.160 is that they either really work, in which case we 158 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.120 all talk about them and how awesome they were, and 159 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:00.279 if they don't, there's like a sixteen part part cast 160 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.720 about everything that went wrong right or And the problem 161 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:06.399 is when when things go right, oftentimes we don't talk 162 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:08.360 about them right. So like you can think about right, 163 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.240 I'm a Christian. We've talked about this before, but like 164 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.920 that whole Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast series 165 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:14.639 was about a church that didn't work right, a church 166 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:16.600 network that didn't work. But the fact is there are 167 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.720 tons of church networks and tons of pastors that do 168 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:21.399 completely normal work and they'll never get a podcast about them, which, 169 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.079 in fairness, you don't want that podcast about them, but 170 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:29.600 the analysis can there's some we can tend to ignore it. Weirdly, 171 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.959 from historical terms, we tend to ignore the planes that 172 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.039 actually survived because the stories about them once that got 173 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:35.279 shot down are way more cool. 174 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.519 Yeah, exactly, yeah, I mean, well there are those moments though, 175 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.679 that are covered for their non happening. I mean, not 176 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:43.679 to get too off topic, but we have the guy 177 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:46.080 oh I am blanking on his name, but he was 178 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.919 the Soviet officer who saved the world by not launching 179 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:52.480 the nuclear weapons against the United States in the nineteen 180 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.600 eighties Petrov Sennis love Petrov, that was his name, And 181 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:57.399 there's stories like that in the United States as well. 182 00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:59.600 So it's funny. We do have stories where we really 183 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.840 amp the importance of things not happening, but it's always 184 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.120 in the contextuff, well the world would event did that's right. Yeah, 185 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:10.039 but yeah, so we're talking about this guy with the 186 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.320 name Lafayette, which you know, Revolutionary War buffs are going 187 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:14.639 to perk up their ears and they hear that, and 188 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.080 there's a good reason for that. But that's not the 189 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:18.320 beginning of the story. I just wanted to let you 190 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.320 sort of let's not like spoil your article. People should 191 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:23.679 go read it for themselves, but just sort of summarize 192 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:26.679 what you're talking about. Who this Lafayette, Armistead Lafayette, We 193 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:29.200 should say who he was, and just walk us through 194 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:30.679 the story in the broadest strokes possible. 195 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.840 And yeah, sure, so, I mean, think about James Armistead lafayet. 196 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.440 He hasn't called James Armstead lafay until much later in 197 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.480 his life after his Revolutionary War service, right, He's right. 198 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.679 For his most of his entire life he was named 199 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:44.600 James Armistead. James Armstead is a black man who was 200 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:47.720 born into slavery in southeastern Virginia in the mid seventeen hundreds, 201 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:51.159 I think around between seventeen forty and seventeen sixty. His 202 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.679 master is this guy William Armistead, which is where the 203 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.639 last name came from. William Armistead is a fascinating character 204 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.000 in his own right. Right, He inherits several dozen slaves 205 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.759 from his father, right, and that's part of what shapes 206 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:04.240 its relationship. So a theme that comes up a lot 207 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.440 when it comes to James's story is this idea of 208 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.799 things that are intended for evil or intended not for 209 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.840 his benefit end up working very well to his benefit. 210 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.240 Which is not just a providence thing, although I could 211 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:17.639 argue about that it is a providential thing, but it's 212 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:22.600 also James's truly uncommon level of with self awareness and 213 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.039 ability to actually make a choice and a crucial moment 214 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.200 that actually ends up turning a lot of these potential 215 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.720 obstacles into advantages. And this is one example. Right, So 216 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:36.320 James's master grew up learning with because James is raised 217 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:40.600 on this plantation in Virginia, right, so educating slaves at 218 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.080 the time, right in the seventeen forty seventeen sixties. It 219 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:45.639 was legal in places like in like the Carolinas, that 220 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.200 sort of thing. But it is legal in places like Virginia, 221 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.679 and it was especially common among people who are religious 222 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:53.399 because they believed that they had a mandate to educate 223 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.200 their slaves, that sort of thing. Right, So James grows 224 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:58.600 up and he's educated despite being born in slavery. Why 225 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.399 is that, right? One, it's a calculation to make him 226 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:04.000 a more valuable commodity, and that kind of capital based system. 227 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.360 You want an educated slave because an educated slave can 228 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.120 at some level sell for more money. But it comes 229 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:13.159 back what's intended for the good of like another master, 230 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.759 a potential buyer ends up working towards James as good 231 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:18.519 because he grows up not only literate, able to read 232 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:20.559 and write, but bilingual. Right, He grows up learning to 233 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.759 read and write English and French, which makes him a 234 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:27.320 very small minority, right. I think there is some sources 235 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:30.480 estimate that it's like five percent of enslaved people in 236 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:34.080 Virginia literate at all. Right now, notably, if James had 237 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.159 been born obviously his entire life story would be different. 238 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.840 But if he had been born a few decades later 239 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:43.039 posts like Nat Turner's rebellion in eighteen thirty one. The 240 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.399 chances of him being educated at all is almost nothing, 241 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.440 because that you have educating slaves after the Turner rebellion 242 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:52.279 tanks very severe. But he was born and educated before that. 243 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:54.960 We all know about Frederick Douglass. Of course, he's the 244 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:59.440 most famous, right self educated mostly if I remember, right slave. 245 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.320 But the big deal about him is it was so rare, 246 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:04.519 and I think people do make the mistake of thinking 247 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.080 that it was rare. I mean, it was rare, as 248 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:09.120 you just said, but that the rarity of him doing 249 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.360 it was in a different context of the rarity of 250 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.720 someone like James Armistead. And that is really interesting. I mean, 251 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.480 I've always thought that the story of American slavery is 252 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:23.960 really interesting in the sense that it was always evil, obviously, 253 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:28.840 but the way we imagine it in the I shouldn't say. 254 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:30.919 That's a really bad way of phrasing it. It was evil, 255 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.279 but no, there is no blood. 256 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:34.480 But you know what I'm saying, Yeah, here's we're going 257 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:36.159 to talk about some things in the context of slaver. 258 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:38.000 Here for people who are listening, we're going to talk 259 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.440 about some ways that might seem, especially if you have 260 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.360 that kind of filter of tone, kind of policing matters. 261 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:45.480 I need you to set that aside for this entire discussion. 262 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.440 Make it much more comfortable for all of us. Right, 263 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:50.840 I'm not white, so this is fine. Yeah, And this 264 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:54.279 is like, if there's something that seems super unnuanced just 265 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:55.960 because of the words, I need you to take that 266 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.080 point of view and just discard it for. 267 00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:58.440 A little bit. 268 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.320 Run with the identity politics too. You're allowed to say 269 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:02.320 it totally. 270 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:06.519 I'm only partially allowed. I have the heritage, it's not right. Yeah, yeah, 271 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:09.159 so I can talk about slavery, but only the content. Yeah, 272 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.200 four thousand years. 273 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:12.600 Ago, that's right. But but the point being like, take that, 274 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:14.039 take that filter and set it aside. 275 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:14.240 Right. 276 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:17.159 So anyway, So the way this ends up happening is 277 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:20.000 that James's master, WILLIAMS. Armstead, ends up meeting the Marquis 278 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.399 de Lafayette. Marquis de Lafierte is his French aristocrat fights 279 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.559 in the side of the Continental Army, very closely connected 280 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:29.919 with George Washington, and notably really abhors the institution of slavery. Right, 281 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.120 It's he has this belief in natural law the rights 282 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.279 of the human person, and it actually goes on because 283 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.480 the Marquis ends up becoming a key figure in the 284 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:39.399 French Revolution and the writing and the Declaration of the 285 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:41.360 Rights of Man in which he is a pivotal figure. 286 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.159 And there's a whole story about the Marquis de Lafayette, 287 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.600 George Washington and slavery in the free market, which we 288 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.080 can get into later if you want sure, But anyway, 289 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:53.440 so James's master meets the Marquis de Lafayette, Marquis de 290 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:58.159 Lafiette in turn meets James. So Marquis de Lafayette sees 291 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:02.120 this slave who's enslaved person we want to say, but 292 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.039 refer to previously what we said about words, right, he 293 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.840 realizes that James is not only incredibly intelligent, but he's 294 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.840 bilingual and literate. Right, this is a huge asset to 295 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.360 someone like the Marquis de Lafayette. 296 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.840 The details of how they met, no, just I mean, 297 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.440 because yeah, I mean James. Like again, I'm jumping ahead 298 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:23.159 a little bit, but you pointed out how James didn't 299 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.240 write anything, so we are really operating off of not 300 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.080 scant evidence, but just like it's secondhand by its very nature. 301 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:32.320 Yeah, no, it's fair. I mean we can kind of infer, right, 302 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:34.960 So William Armistead was a patriot. He sold a lot 303 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.960 of materials to clients that included members of the Continental Army. 304 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.919 So you can kind of infer that somehow by whatever 305 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:42.840 means that happened. But it's true, we don't know quite 306 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:47.399 how that happened. But yeah, right, regardless, it does happen. 307 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:51.559 And what the Marquis Blafayette realizes in James is this 308 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.080 is someone who could be a very useful and very 309 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:57.639 very competent spy, right, so he makes him this offer, 310 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.759 you can come spy for the essentially on the side 311 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.279 of the in an army against the British right. So 312 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:04.600 at the moment, there are two kind of forces pulling 313 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:06.519 on James when it comes to loyalty. Right, this is 314 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:10.279 in I believe this is in like late seventeen seventies, right. 315 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.919 So the first one is obviously Marquis a personal friend 316 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.559 of James Armistead, right, friend of his master. Right, he's 317 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:19.720 offering this opportunity, work adventure. You get to go out 318 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.000 and see the world and take part in this conflict 319 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:25.039 that at that point was entirely inevitable and was already 320 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:28.200 beginning on the other side, on the British side. Right, 321 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.360 the Royal Governor of Virginia in seventeen seventy five, Lord Dunmore, 322 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.039 issues this proclamation that any slave who wants to join 323 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:36.919 the British Army, who's willing to join, gets their freedom 324 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:40.120 in exchange for their loyalty. Right, and James has a 325 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.720 wife and kids at this point, notably to point out 326 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:44.639 like this is not an easy This is not like 327 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:46.679 a twenty two year old deciding do I want to 328 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.080 go to college or do I want to go like 329 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.440 run a Hemp sweater store. Right, these are completely the 330 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:56.039 variables here are very strong, right, So that choice in 331 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:57.679 and of itself is kind of instructive. 332 00:15:57.759 --> 00:15:57.879 Right. 333 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.240 So if if James adjoined the British Army, right, he's 334 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.799 a slave in Virginia, he's bilingual. If he joins the 335 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.080 British Army, he gets his freedom. It's free freedom, more 336 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.320 or less completely contingent on his continued loyalty to the crown. 337 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.960 And notably, and we'll get into this a little bit more, 338 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.159 I'm sure the British Army are not exactly the best 339 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.519 when it comes to treating their people. It is a 340 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.360 notable problem throughout the Revolutionary War. On the other hand, 341 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:24.960 if he decides to join the Continental Army, right, it's 342 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.200 this is the most risk laden thing ever for many reasons. 343 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.559 I mean, we can just say he does take the 344 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.080 marquis offer to join the army, because that explains some 345 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:35.279 of the dangers inherent in this. Right he's a spy. 346 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.799 He can't carry papers right of his identity or his 347 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.600 freedom or anything like that. He can't carry papers at all, 348 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.240 which makes it easier if he's discovered. But if he 349 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:46.919 has to come clean, there's no way to verify if 350 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.559 he comes clean. So he takes on a ton of 351 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.320 risk in choosing to work for the Marquis de Lafayette, 352 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:54.679 and he does not get his freedom at this point. 353 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:56.960 That was not something the Marquie could offer at that point. 354 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:01.039 So he enters the Continental Army in seventeen eighty one, 355 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.559 and he becomes a double agent, right, so he infiltrates 356 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.319 the British camp. The British camp realized the same thing 357 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.119 that this guy who's bilingual and literate and very clearly 358 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.000 very intelligent, would be a great spy, and also for 359 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.640 the British. It's very important. He's from Virginia and he 360 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.200 has intimate knowledge while the supply lines and trade routes 361 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.599 through Virginia near Richmond, et cetera. Which, if you're from Britain, 362 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.200 you're here fighting essentially a guerrilla fighting for us from Virginia. 363 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.960 That's kind of beneficial to know. So he becomes a 364 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.319 double agent, right. He goes back to the American lines 365 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.559 and they feed him faulty information he passes to the British, 366 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:38.000 and then he goes to the British and he feeds 367 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.480 the correct information back to the Americans, and he basically 368 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.920 becomes Again this is don't if you're one of those 369 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:47.839 Edgelord people, you've already thought about a joke for this. 370 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.480 But James essentially kind of becomes this gray man kind 371 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.759 of figure. Right. So because the British at the time, 372 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.039 they're not going to think about a black servant being 373 00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.920 a source of intelligence. These people are essentially invisible to them. 374 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:00.759 They don't think about that. 375 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:02.480 Well, and let me just cut in here really quick 376 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.119 just to point out that, yes, the British were offering 377 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.000 freedom and manumissioned specifically to people like James. They were 378 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.400 they and yes, the British love to bring this up. 379 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:13.599 This is gonna become the anti British podcast. I'm sorry 380 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:14.559 to my British listeners. 381 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.279 I'm not I'm not sorry. Okay, yeah, we're patriot but 382 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.000 yeah I'm Indian. Oh please spare me. Oh okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, 383 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.960 I don't care. Indian and American. Yeah, Indian adopted to 384 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:26.720 America and I call it soccer. 385 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.480 It's yeah, I think you have more of a more 386 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:31.400 of a right to be even more patriotic than me. 387 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:35.880 And yeah, respectfully come at me, dorks. Yeah, yeah, in 388 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:36.559 all serious. 389 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:38.640 And so the British love to point out that they 390 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.519 abolished slavery and then you know, enforce that well before 391 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.119 America did. And yes, fair true, but they didn't do 392 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.480 it because they suddenly thought that black people were human beings, right, 393 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.119 that is not And as you just said, they this 394 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.319 guy was invisible and it doesn't matter how heroic they 395 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.400 thought he was. They were like, oh, he's a means 396 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:57.920 to an end for us. Well. Yeah. 397 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:00.279 Notably the person who he ends up serving through his 398 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.880 time in the war is Charles Cornwallis, who go on 399 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.119 to become a governor in India, and notably did not 400 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:09.079 exactly adopt this perfectly twenty first century post racial paradise 401 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.039