Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining me today on
Jay Sleigh USA. I'm so glad you're here. We have
a very special show for you today, very special guest, Jaydyer,
somebody had been following for a while at a distance,
and just he's going to be the perfect guy, I think,
to cover the material that so badly needs to be
covered today. And this is a subject being Epstein, the
Epstein Files, and the Christian conscience about it, as well
as the Christian conundrum, especially with the Christian Zionist crowd.
You know, what are we seeing from them? What are
they doing and why so? Jay Dyer is a YouTuber,
a Christian apologist, author, and public debater who's known for
his sharp analysis and fearless engagement with controversial topics. He
is a former I believe he's a former Protestant who
converted to Orthodoxy, and he brings a deep theological, historical,
and philosophical lens to everything he does. He's been featured
on many major platforms and is respected for his debating
ability and research skills. I discovered Jay seeing him debate
this weird way to discover him. He was debating the
Misfit Patriot all right, And this was a guy who
just I think he just badly wanted attention. But he
was coming out strong with all the major Zionist talking points.
Even though he wasn't really good at the hasbara, he
still did it strongly. So he was being featured on
like Rabbis shows and these Christian Zionists would you have
him on their shows? And Jay basically put him to
bed pretty quickly. I actually think that this guy did
not complete the interview if I remember, or the debate.
So what was clear to me though that was Jay
was not just a guy who argues well or debates well.
He studies, He knows the background to things that he's
talking about, so there's some credibility and substance there. So
we could probably come on and talk about a whole
lot of topics that affect the Christian world. But based
on where we're at right now with this whole Epstein thing,
I thought, who better to come on my show and
do a deep dive into the Epstein files and the
reaction to it, especially among the Christian world, than Jay Dyer.
So with that, Jay, thanks again for coming on. Glad
to have you.
Speaker 2: Thanks Jeremy, Glad to be with you. Do I need
to repeat what we I don't mind you don't know
not at all.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it a bit. I think what you
were giving was a background and you said this is
actually the way that it's worked ever since Old Testament days.
You go and yeah, and we will. I'm sure cover it,
and you know as we talk here, but let's start
with this, Jay, I want to start with you because
I really have not had this conversation with you. Can
you give us the high level background of your journey
from I think you were an Evangelical Protestant to Orthodoxy.
And I'll say I have people in my feed all
the time saying, Jeremy, will you please try your local
Orthodox church, you know, because they know the problem I'm having. Really,
So anyway, fire away, man.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was raised Baptist, come from a military family, so
my family moved a lot when I was young, and
we ended up in California for a while San Diego,
my dad was in the military.
Speaker 2: Then we moved back to Tennessee and I went to was.
Speaker 3: Originally going to go to Bible College when I graduated
high school, so I went to some Baptist schools for
a while and ended up kind of questioning a lot
of the Baptist stuff because I was really into church
history and reading about the formation of the Biblical can
and how it came together. And I was really young,
that was in my young my early twenties, maybe twenty
twenty one, when I was doing a lot of that reading,
and I bought the Church Father set here that you
see behind me, so that that kind of got me
all focused on early Church and the Batristic era, and
I had a lot of questions. This is back in
like twentyd and one, two and three. There weren't a
lot of a whole lot of internet resources on this
stuff back at that time, so I ended up kind
of in the Catholic Protestant debate world, not myself debating,
yet just kind of consuming a lot of that and
trying to work through that content. I spent a little
bit of time at a evangelical seminary, and while I
was in the midst of those classes and doing a
lot of reading, I just couldn't reconcile the biblical case
for tradition and the Biblical canon with what I had
been assuming was just sort of the de facto given
position of solo scripture and whatnot. So long story short,
that read me. That led me into a long period
throughout my twenties of being a Roman Catholic. So all
of my twenties I was a traditional Catholic, went to
the Latin Mass, got very into Thomas Aquinas and Catholic apologetics.
But I was also at the same time really interested
in philosophy. Ended up leaving Baptist Bible College and I
went in seminary and I went to a just four
year standard state university and I did my undergraduate in
philosophy in history, and then did grad work in English and.
Speaker 2: Philosophy that cognate discipline there.
Speaker 3: Long story short, So I was studying film, I was
studying philosophy, I was studying semiotics and symbolism and film,
and I was doing grad work on Ian Fleming at
the same time as being really interested in theology and
the Bible and apologetics. And I would say around twenty
I was interested in Orthodoxy about two thousand and seven
and eight and started reading the Eastern Church Fathers, reading
a lot on Orthodox theology, but I held off and
it didn't end up becoming Orthodox until about twenty sixteen. Seventeen,
I was getting more serious about it, and then I
think I came in about twenty eighteen. So I've been
orthodox in twenty eighteen. But I think the weird part
is a lot of people on the internet. I'm not
speaking about you, just in general, like people usually think
of people as like doing one thing.
Speaker 2: You know, he's the guy that does the debates.
Speaker 3: Actually we were doing on my channel, my sphere, we
were doing a lot of movie film stuff. Way before
I even had the idea to do a debate. That
just kind of happened accidentally. Somebody said, hey, would you
debate this atheist guy, and then that led to another
atheist debate, and then so I said, hey, will you
debate this Muslim guy? And then that led to a
bunch of Muslim debates, and then that just snowballed on
its own. But we were doing a lot of film analysis.
Speaker 2: For example. I just thought this was funny.
Speaker 3: I was writing film analysis stuff that was coinciding with
my grad work.
Speaker 2: And so in twenty sixteen I.
Speaker 3: Published a book, Essoty Hollywood, and I just want to
note that in the first chapter I talked about the
rothchilds and sex cults and networks and espionage. I talked
about how films were actually telling us this, and I got.
Speaker 2: A lot of flak from that.
Speaker 3: What year was that, Jay, Well, the essay was written
in twenty fourteen or fifteen, and then the book was
published in twenty sixteen. So, but the first book I
read on ritual stuff was actually two thousand and four,
and it was William Kennedy's It was a really rare text.
Speaker 2: Now you can't really find it.
Speaker 3: William Kennedy's book Lucifer's Lodge that came out in two
thousand and fourth, the first journalistic work on the history
of the PDP skin on the Roman Catholic world and
the abuse going on there. So anyway, I've been into
this kind of stuff for a long time. But you
mentioned this journey. You know, for me it wasn't just
theological it was also the geopolitical conspiracy world too. I
kind of came out of the Christian Zionist stuff back
even when I was a Protestant, so at Baptist Bible
College and then at the seminary I was at, I
was under the influence of a lot of Calvinists and
a lot of people like Greg Bonnson, and they had
already written some stuff back in the late nineties that
I was reading in the early two thousands that kind
of got me out of the evangelical dispensational perspective. So
I got into you know, post millennial type theology in
the early two thousands, reading David Chilton and Onsen and
Rush June and all those guys Ken Gentry, and then
I kind of, you know, that partially transitioned to me.
Not it wasn't just eschatology, but that some of that
theology is kind of what propelled me as well to
you know, leave Christian Zionism and dispensationalism and all that
which I.
Speaker 2: Was raised with.
Speaker 3: So but I also, you know, was starting to realize
that there's stuff going on in the geopolitical realm, which
at that time I just thought it was conspiracy stuff.
I was watching Alex Jones' and stuff back in two
thousand and two or three. It was the first time
I saw some of his material, and he was talking
about scull and Bones and Mahemian grove and so what
is this? And I remember I heard about Anthony Sutton
had a book on skull and Bones, and I bought
that book and then I watched Alex's documentaries and got
really heavy into the conspiracy world. And then I started realizing,
I think I was in a unique position. And I'll
shut up here in a second because I don't want
to bore you, But I was in a unique position
because I think a lot of people, you know, when
they get into this kind of stuff, they're they're getting
into it through the Internet, and as was I. But
this was back in the early two thousands, and I
was also studying this stuff, right, So I was taking
philosophy classes, I was taking film classes, and I started
noticing that there's a real parallel between what I was
seeing in the conspiracy world on the Internet and what
I was seeing in movies. And I've always been early
into the film and always been a film buff, and
so yeah, I just started focusing on the relationship between
Hollywood and intelligence agencies, between cults and Hollywood and cults
and intelligence agencies. And I just kept finding these overlaps,
and certain books would come my way, and academic journals
and things, and oh yeah, of course this director, this
Hollywood person, they worked for the CIA, they worked for
the OSS, they were you know, confidential informats and you
would find these details about a list actors and producers
and people that how come I never heard this that
this you know person was a spy in real life
and so that was its own rabbit hole and so forth.
So anyway, long story short, I eventually put it into
a book and then you know, that led to hosting
for Alex for the last six years on most Fridays,
so I've been able to do that, and then, you know,
so it's it's sort of like a bunch of separate
things that we do, writing for Sam Hide, doing comedy,
that kind of stuff, but they all kind of overlap
because you know, in the Internet world, all of these
seemingly crazy areas, they all kind of like merge together
in one, one infinite scrolling feed of insanity. So yeah, anyway, yeah,
that's that's how I got to where we are now,
you know, debates, comedy, writing the books on movies, all
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's interesting people that spend the years
that it takes, and I would say, I'm I've spent
years now researching. We all come at this from our
own angles. But if there's one true story that is
being told, and there's the there's if there is objective truth,
then when we detach from the stories we were told
which made sense to us when we weren't smart enough
to ask the questions. Okay, then you detach, and then
you feel like A girl called me this morning and
she was she's in this. She's like, I feel like
I'm in a dizzy bat race. I feel like I've
detached from all these people that I thought because she
worked heavy I'll tell you exactly what it was. She
worked in the heavy pro life industry with Lyla Rose
and did all these things with these various Catholic five
oh one c threes. But these people won't touch Epstein.
They won't touch you know, the genocide and Gaza, the
amount of kids that have died over there. They won't
touch it. And it's driving her insane. And she's like,
I now don't know what to do. I don't know
what to believe other than She's like, I believe in Jesus,
but I feel so disoriented because all the leaders that
I'm supposed to trust and respect have gone silent on
the biggest issue of our times. And I was like,
tell me about it, you know, But what I was
going to say is people detached, they get dizzy. Then
they start finding some of these threads that make sense.
And it's a long process, but eventually you come to
a place where when you figure out what's going on
and who's pulling the levers of power, it starts to
make a whole lot of sense again. And so I
just want to encourage the people watching, like, Man, I'm confused.
If you stick around and you really care about the truth,
and you tell me, Jay, if you agree with this,
if you really care and you you are seeking God
and seeking truth, you were going to come back to
a firm foundation where life and the stories around us
make coherent sense. That's that's what I believe.
Speaker 4: What do you think, Jay, Yeah, you know the existence
of this extreme form of evil, you know, in all
in all capacities, pretty much everything that you could think
of as the most evil.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think this kind of triggers a lot
of people to also realize that, well, if there's this
much evil, then there probably is a reality to the good.
And I don't I don't mean that in some kind
of weird gnostic way. I'm just I'm just saying that
I think that this is what happens to a lot
of people and see so many comments and people saying, man,
if this kind of evil stuff is real and this
is what's going on, then there's.
Speaker 2: Got to be a God.
Speaker 3: There's got to be spiritual good and not just spiritual evil.
So yeah, you know, in regard to the Roman Catholic Church,
you know, that's a world that I was in for
you know, about a decade, and I know it.
Speaker 2: I know it very well. It's been many years since
I was in that world.
Speaker 3: But you know, since leaving and seeing it, you know,
I don't hate Catholics. I think because I do a
lot of debates with the Roman Catholics, people think that
I hate them. I'm opposed to the people more so.
The corruption is from the institution, from the top down.
Speaker 2: And uh. And it's not just a matter.
Speaker 3: Of espionage and you know, compromising the Vatican at a
geopolitical level to promote you know, UNESCO or Davos Agenda.
It's it's more than that. It's also a spiritual corruption.
It's a it's a networking infiltration that goes back to
the Middle Ages, particularly in the eleventh century when you
have what's called the Grigorian Reforms and during that period
of the papacy took on a new approach to being
a geopolitical world power. Prior to that, most of the churches,
even though some of the patriarchates and the important bishoprics
of the Church in the first Milameium they had a
lot of power, there were specific canons in Chalcedon and
other ecumenical councils that forbade the Church from taking on
a civil state role. And what the Roman Church did
after the formation of the papal States, et cetera, was
to claim for itself more and more political power, until
eventually in the eleventh century you have documents like the
Tatus pape under Pope Gregory, and then you have later
on Unum sanctam under Pope urban In the thirteen hundred
and thirteen eighty two, I think eleventh century to thirteen
eighty two, you get this rise in the papacy again
just focusing more so on geopolitical stuff, standing armies. If
you're not accepting what's called the temporal supremacy of the
Roman bishop, then you're no longer able to be saved.
And I think that was a key moment for the
departure from the Orthodox perspective. That's that century of eleven
hundreds to the thirteen hundreds. That's really the key point
when Rome deviated from what the Church of the first
thousand years East and West agreed upon.
Speaker 1: And I when you say that, am I understanding this correctly?
You're saying that was the moment where the Vatican said, basically,
the Pope's word is equivalent to God's word.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dick toddispape has this phrase in it, which now
is admitted even by the Vatican to be a forgery,
even though it's still in some of their canon law.
No one judges the First Sea, so no one can
a judge or criticize or come against the First Sea
because he's supreme in all matters. So basically it sets
the groundwork for the autocratic view of the papacy, which
then gets confirmed at Vatican One, which happened in the
late eighteen hundreds. That was one of their four Vatican
two in the nineteen sixties, the last Roman Catholic Dogmatic
Council was Vatican one, which confirmed the doctrine of in
foul ability and indefectibility of the Roman bishop. So yes,
eventually that culminates. You could say in that perspective, and
then all of that sets the stage for Vatican Two
in the nineteen sixties, which ironically there was a I
think his name is Gregory Baum was the author of
the document called Nostrette, which is the decree on Acumenism
that's part of the Vatican two documents, and it specifically
states that Roman Catholics, Muslims, Jews, even Hindus, we all
kind of worship the same God and we can now
have these sort of ecumenical gatherings and practices where we
pray together because it's all the same generic deity that
was at once a spiritual and a geopolitical maneuvering to
turn the Roman Catholic Church into ant into a form
of soft power. So it's extending the American attitude during
the Cold War. This is a declassified document called the
Doctrinal Warfare Program. C. D. Jackson was one of the
people that head that up, and they recruited John Courtney
Murray to.
Speaker 2: Be kind of their representative and their attache.
Speaker 3: So Gregory Baum who wrote No Sar Tati, which completely
changed the Romancolic Church's perspective on the Jews, which previously
had a very negative sort of antithesis position to Judaism
or beining Judaism. Now that completely flipped into the opposite
to where we're all or sort of on the same path,
the same journey. I think Francis a few years ago
created the Abu Dhabi Faith Center, which is Mustims, Christians
and Jews all worshiping together.
Speaker 1: Isn't it specifically Catholics?
Speaker 2: What's that?
Speaker 1: Isn't it specifically Catholics though, like Muslims, Catholics and Jews.
Speaker 3: Well, the yeah, I mean the language of Vatican two
kind of says both, because it'll say Catholics, Muslims, and
Jews and Hindus is all the same God. But then
in other places they'll say all Christians all share in
the same The whole thing is really just to catch
to cast this really broad, watered down net which denies
John fourteen six. You know, Jesus is on the way
that you're in the life. No one comes to Father,
but they're me. Well, now all the other religions can
also be pathways to God. In fact, Francis even said
this a few years ago. I eclipped it, got a
lot of views on that clip. Before he passed away,
he was affirming that what Vatican two means is that
you can be saved in any religion, right, and this
is going to denial of the fundamentals of Christian theology
and the tradition of the Church. So even I mean,
nobody in the first thousand years of Chritianity taught anything
like that. So these are really clear indicators of just
specifically where the Roman Catholic Church went off. But separate
from that, the reason I'm bringing in people like Gregory
Baum is that he was explicitly working, at the best
of Jewish interests to change the Roman Catholic Church's attitude
and make it more of an a humanist approach, a
syncrotist type of approach. And that's why you see the
Roman Catholic Church being so different than it was even
in the nineteen forties and fifties, almost night and day.
But there's a geopolitical motivation behind that. Gregory Baum was
was he was. He was a gay Jewish man who
changed the theology of the Vatican explicitly.
Speaker 2: This is admitted.
Speaker 1: I need I need to read on that guy. That
that's that's important.
Speaker 2: That's uh. Yeah.
Speaker 3: He was then deproocked and then left the priesthood because
he had done it, he had completed his mission. So
but that's within the Roman Catholic world. I mean you
get similar types of things within evangelicalism, where you have
the promotion of the Schofield Study Bible, of course, which
promoted the idea that the present day nation state of Israel,
which was oddly enough a creation of atheistic sort of
Hegel influenced UH Zionists like Moses Has and he invites
them and Theodore Hertzel. I mean, I've got Moses Has's
books up here. So he explicitly says we're going to
use Freemasonry UH as a way to teach a new religion.
He says, going to change Christianity. We're going to move
these religions into focusing world religion on Tel Aviv. So
Moses hes was very explicit about it. It's not totally atheistic,
it's not really theistic. It's more of a political position
that uses a generic theism for political means. And they
were very explicit about how they had convinced in the
eighteen sixties the Rothchilds to support this venture. And I
have the Rodchell's biography and in the biography they talk
about going in and sort of buying up the Holy
Land and places and sites in the Holy Land from
the Turkish sultans who had previously had control of that area.
Speaker 2: Now people will.
Speaker 3: Say, well, political Zionism doesn't come on the scene until
you know, the early nineteen hundreds. Yeah, but it was
formulated in the eighteen fifties and sixties right by people
like Moses Has.
Speaker 2: In fact, Moses Has says that he brags about.
Speaker 3: How, you know, early on and how he had been
meeting with the Rothchild brothers in the eighteen sixties to
plan a new homeland for the Jews, and other places
were discussed as well. They talked about New Zealand, they
talked about Austria, they talked about other places to create
a homeland. But it was ultimately at the behest of
the Rothchilds to brag about the Balfour Decoration being one
of the ways which prepared the way for the eventual
nineteen forty eight what is it recognition to the nation
state of Israel, which only happened because of World War Two.
So it's interesting that even tiny mustache man fits into
that as a justification for the nation state of Israel
and all the evangelicals in America are duped then into
thinking that.
Speaker 2: Not to a fulfillment of prophecy, we got to support
the atheist, socialist kipliz nation state of Israel.
Speaker 3: It's a fulfillment of prophecy. Now, it's not the fulfillment
of prophecy. Is the Church is the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is among you, it's
within you. He said he would bring the kingdom. He
says to the apostles that they will be princes and
judges of the Kingdom. That means that the kingdom is
established at the first event, not at the end of
the Second Advent. Now it comes to full fruition, we
would say at the second Coming. But all of that
rapture dispensational theology is a psyop It's all a very
late invention by John Nelson Darby, guy who was a
schismatic of the Anglican Church, created his own cult, his
own group, and they came up with this prophecy theory
that then spread to America via Oxford Press publishing the
Scofield Study Bible. So when you get into the history
of all that and you understand the geopolitical motivations. It
makes perfect sense why that was pushed in America prior
to nineteen seventeen in the Balper Declaration, Like, yeah, it
was clearly by design to get American evangelicals, especially to
support the geopolitical designs of what quickly calls the atlanticis establishment.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's interesting. I was always taught when
I studied Christian apologetics that I thought it was a
deep level. It was probably, you know, pretty pedestrian level.
But yeah, I was reading all the you know, the
Rabbi Zacharias books for Christian apologetics or John Lennox or whatever,
you know, and this while I'm traveling as a ballplayer.
So I thought I was doing pretty good, you know,
and maybe I was. But the key phrase was always
the truth is not afraid of being questioned. The truth
is not afraid of being questioned. You know, we could
handle it. Ask us your questions. But it was within
a certain sphere. And now looking back, it's like, you know,
there were so many things they never talked about. I'll
give a few examples right here. You mentioned even though
I was trained under the wing of the fourth largest
this by the Jerusalem Post, the fourth largest Christian Zionist
pastor in America is Alan Jackson out of Murphy's Brough, Tennessee.
And he pulled me under his wing as when I
was a young, you know, college athlete during an off season.
It was right after on the heels of nine to eleven.
We're at a cracker barrel. He broke out a map
of the Middle East, and Israel was in blue and
all those other big bad bullies were in red, and
he's like, look at this miracle. Look, you know, just
to they exist even one day, it's a miracle every day.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I didn't know we were giving them billions and billions
of dollars a year of support. I didn't know what
apac was. I didn't know the word Christian Zionism. I
didn't know the word Zionism. I didn't know the word dispensationalism.
I never heard of Schofield, I never heard of Darby.
Yet I became, over a period of ten years, the
biggest Christian Zionist that I knew. I mean, I was
ready to blow all those other countries off the map
because I thought, well, they're just leading their kids right
to Hell. Anyway, it'd be better for them not to
even be there, because the Jews are a passive people.
They're simple people. They don't have any power. They just
want to be left alone. That was what I was taught,
and I'll have one more growing up being taught the
history of theology, Jesus, the Church, the Temple. We knew
the temple fell, but did I ever hear anything other than, yeah,
the prophecy came true. The temple fell in seventy eighty.
I had no eye idea how big of a deal
this was for the Jewish nation. I didn't know the
way that it scorned them, and I didn't know about
the tallmu. So that to me is just a average
intelligence thinking guy tells me, if the majority of the
Evangelical Church and maybe the Catholic Church too, is purposely
obfuscating and not talking about giant swaths of historical fact,
we have a serious problem. And my audience is mostly
evangelical or former evangelicals who are starting to get these things. So,
you know, to me, I kind of went on a
rant there, But that's that was one of my big awakenings,
was all the things they didn't teach me that all
I've got to do is pick up a book and
read about it. I'm like, how is this never said?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: So I'll ask one more question along these lines and
we'll move on to Epstein. Now that you're Orthodox and
you've been through the Catholicism, you know, ten year phase.
You started out as a Baptist, so you know that theology.
I think you said you were in Baddist Seminary.
Speaker 3: Well, I went to about Bible College, and then I
did a semester of Bonson Seminary, which was a non
accredited school that focused on the apologetics and the theology
of Greg Bonson and the Christian Reconstructionists. So but that
was right when I was converting out of Protestantism, is
when I left that school.
Speaker 1: Okay, what are the biggest gaps that are filled for
you by the Orthodox Church that Catholicism didn't have or
the Evangelical Church didn't have, and then maybe a different
set of things for both of those. But why did
you land on Orthodox?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of different things.
Speaker 3: I'll just try to boil it down to like I
said earlier, you know, when I got into studying the
formation of the Biblical Canon, that that really got me
into looking into the church fathers and the ecumenical councils,
and what was the attitude of the Christians immediately after
the death of the Apostles, right, so this is called
the post Apostolic fathers. So I started reading Clement and
Ignacious and Cyprian, all these bishops of the early Church.
And then, of course, even as a Baptist, I remember,
you know, well, we believe the Council of Nicea because
it taught, you know, the deity of Christ. And I
went to actually read Nicea and the church fathers who
were there, and you know, Saint Athanasius and these guys,
and I realized, okay, they believe a lot of stuff
that I don't believe. And I read City of God,
which was Augustine's gigantic apologetic. I read the whole thing
when I was at Bible College, and I took I
wrote down a bunch of questions for the Baptist professors.
Speaker 2: I went took at my.
Speaker 3: Questions that I said, can you guys tell me, like,
why does he believe in the real presence? Why does
he say he believes in absolute succession? Why does he
talk about relics, and why does he talk about all
this stuff? That just doesn't really make sense with Baptist theology,
and I I didn't really get good answers, and so
that kind of led me gradually out of Baptist stuff
into Covenant theology and then into you know, I didn't
even know about Orthodoxy back then. It was like two
thousand and four or five. I just knew about Catholicism
and Protestant debates. And I think when you're Protestant, if
you're a young person and you are looking into this stuff,
especially in the two thousands, but there's a lot fewer
resources online, you didn't really I didn't know about Vatican
Two yet, I didn't know what it taught. I just thought, Okay,
I'm looking at what's the historic church, and it's either
going to be something like, you know, Anglican, or it's
going to be something like you know, Lusing maybe. And
I gave all of those a lot of a lot
of chances. I read about six of Luther's commentaries and works.
I read several Anglican texts, Petertoon, people like that, and
I just ultimately didn't find a lot of those arguments
about the church from those churches perspectives very convincing. So
that was always in the back of my head, even
as a Protestant, or even even when I convert to Catholicism.
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, this has got to be it.
Speaker 3: And then when you get into the Roman Catholic documents,
as I've got like a bunch of Vatican two and
all all the ecumenical councils and the people encyclicals over there, like,
you just start to notice, Okay, Rome has changed its theology.
So what do I do with this? And for me,
it was just because I had such a love for
church history. I want to know then, okay, well, the
true Church, if it's not any of those, it's got
to have the same teaching as the church in all
those early centuries. So I'm looking for a church that
didn't change its fundamental doctrines. What church still teaches what,
for example, the Canons of Nice say, I'm not talking
about the Nicene Creed, some of the canons that accompany
the creed, because the canons also give us an insight
into the mind of the Church fathers and the people
who compose those creeds. And people might say, well, yeah,
I don't really care about the Church fathers though, I'm
just really interested in what the Bible says. Well, the
problem with that is that as I was reading evangelical
scholars like F. F. Bruce on the Canon Scripture or
Lee McDonald Formation of the Biblical Canon, they were admitting
this important role of tradition and even knowing what texts
were apostolic. So certainly apo authorship is a key point
when it comes to the Canon. It's not the only thing,
but it's a very important point. Well, if we don't
know who Matthew the author, Matthew was other than the
church saying in different bishoprics and ce, this is the
text that Matthew wrote. And if we're having to rely on,
for example, Irenaeus or Cyprian to reconstruct a lot of
early manuscript evidence for the Bible itself. In other words,
we're looking at say Urinaus and his voluminous writings. He
cites many, many, many New Testament passages and Old Testament passages,
and those are other witnesses to the veracity of the
New Testament texts and the Old Testament texts in the
second century.
Speaker 2: So that's very early.
Speaker 3: And none of these people have Protestant views on anything.
I don't believe in soul Scripture. They don't believe in
soilo grascia, they don't believe in a memorialist view of
the Eucharist, they don't believe in a symbolic view of baptism.
I mean, they believe in all these things that I
thought were you know, really problematic teachings. And so, you know,
why would I trust those people to put the Bible
together when I think that they have heretical, you know,
fundamentally wrong theology on the Gospel. And so it just
really caused me to re evaluate everything. But then in
the Roman Catholic world, you know, you have all these
problems as well, with innovations and change, and so eventually,
in about twenty fifteen sixteen, I just came to the
position that the only church that really maintains the essential
fundamental core, not just theology, but also the practice of
the church, no changes in the liturgy, no revolutions like
Vatican two did with Novasorto Mass and all that is
the Orthodox Church. And so the more I studied, the
more I spent time in the Orthodox world, the more
I was convinced that, you know, for Christianity, that's really
the all there is, that's the only authentic expression of Christianity.
Speaker 2: That's not to say that there's not problems in the
Orthodox world. It has its own problems, for.
Speaker 3: Sure, but I really felt like there was no more fundamental,
systemic level problems and contradictions like I had in the
Protestant world in the Roman Catholic world.
Speaker 2: So that was the long story as to why I
ended up there.
Speaker 1: You know, this may seem like a cheap question, but
I think it's a question a lot of people like
myself would have who have never been to an Orthodox church.
You know, you Jay, as you your regular guide, dressed
normal and all that, do you wish that the would
you call them priests?
Speaker 2: The author?
Speaker 1: Okay, so the priests of the Orthodox do you wish
that they dressed like you and I?
Speaker 2: Or do you?
Speaker 3: This comes out of when Christianity permeated society. It made
sense for them to, even in the day to day world,
have themselves marked out as unique because in our review,
you know, it's not a weekend profession, it's a it's
every day I mean, in the Orthodox Church, priests priests
have to do things every day all day, so they're
basically twenty four to seven ministers. Now there's obviously flexibility there,
Like a lot of priests have jobs as well, so
they might be working, you know, I mean, they have families.
Speaker 2: In the Orthodox Church, priests are married.
Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear that they have families and they
have kids, so there might be situations obvious where they're
not all the time dressed. One of my best friends
is a deacon in an Orthodox Church, and deacons a
lot more important role than it is saying the Calolic
Church or even the Protestant Church. Deacons are right next
to priests. They're ordained that there's who that's who's ordained
to the priesthood is the is the deacon. So and
they do a lot of the teaching, a lot of
the theology in the Orthodox world. And uh, you know,
my my buddy for the deacon annyas he's always going skiing,
but he doesn't ski in his cassick.
Speaker 2: So I mean, it's not like you have to always
address it.
Speaker 3: But I think again, this is just a practical thing
that comes out of you know, the early Middle Ages,
to delineate within a Christian society who the minister is,
because you know, it's a twenty four to seven job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, Well, we could do a whole show on that,
but the title of this show is it has to
do with Epstein. So I'm going to let you insert
knowing kind of generally what my audience is. They're all
seeing what I'm seeing. Most of them are from an
evangelical background, or they still are in it, but they
might be asking questions. They know about the Epstein files,
they've heard generally what's in it. I'll let you just
start this conversation with, you know, high level, what do
you think people need to know? First? And then let's
dig into some of the responses and reactions.
Speaker 3: I think the simplest way to make this palatable is
if everybody saw Specter, the James Bond film with Daniel
Craig that came out a few years ago, Right, I mean,
basically that's real. That's the easiest way I could think
to explain it. Maybe everybody can immediately relate to in
some kind of recent recent movie. And if you saw,
you know, movies like Kubrick's Size White Shut, you know,
that's another movie that I think was really pivotal for
explaining to the mass consciousness, you know, in a movie way,
because everybody can relate to movies, especially from our generation.
Speaker 2: You know that that kind of stuff is it's not
one und percent real.
Speaker 3: Obviously, James Bond's a fictional character, but it's based on
composites of what these people knew and saw in their
real life. And so, you know, Epstein might not be
the top of the you know, villain hierarchy in terms
of real power and control because he had.
Speaker 2: A limited amount of wealth.
Speaker 3: He was more of a mid tier kind of fixer, controller,
consultant person. But he was definitely a blowfelk kind of person.
You know, if you remember Inspector, when James Bond is
trying to infiltrate and figure out who's running this criminal
syndicate that's responsible for terrorism, responsible for wars, responsible for
all this, you know, he infiltrates this meeting that's kind
of like a World Economic Forum Davos Builderberg meeting, and
you've got these you know, specter villains. They're talking about, Yes,
this year, we have increased human trafficking forty percent. You know,
we have stolen thirty three billion dollars in you know,
mortgage lending.
Speaker 2: So they're basically.
Speaker 3: Listing all of their crime stats at this giant meeting
so I would say that's pretty much kind of how
it is. And you know, with Epstein, what we have
is a person recruited into an operation early on through
Bill Barr of the OSS and into what would be
something adjacent to the CIA. This is why he has
multiple passports. For example, as Whitney Web points out in
her book, that operation ends up funneling him into Wall
Street bear Stearns. He's an insider trader there, he gets
busted for that, and ironically he has a partner. His
partner is the one that does time. So I think
that's a key indicator that early on Epstein didn't do
any time for the insider trading at bear Stearns, but
what he was learning was criminal organizations in relation to
high finance. So then Maxwell and just Lame bring him
into their operation, which we know was a Rothschild front,
and that's where he was taught corporate takeover procedures viper
corporatism there and then also the blackmail stuff. Right, So
this would then suggest that Robert Maxwell, who was British
Intelligence and Masade, was also then sort of grooming and
teaching Epstein how to run that operation.
Speaker 1: Let's work on Maxwell on Robert for just a second,
because a lot of people have not read the book
The Super Spy and all that. I have not read
it myself, but I do you know, I was very surprised.
I knew that Jeffrey Epstein was Jewish, I did not
know Maxwell was, And later on I found out she was,
and I was like, well, I wonder where when her
father had that weird death, where's he buried? Because that
sometimes tells a lot about where somebody's loyalties lie. And
I find out, Wow, he was given a state funeral
in Israel, attended by both state leaders and religious leaders,
and then buried on the Mount of Olives, like.
Speaker 3: He's buried in Israel because most of his lifetime of
service was to the Nation instead of Israel for espionage.
But then we had that really curious email where Epstein said, yeah,
I'll tell you the real story of what happened to
him and his death, and it was that he was
sort of playing both sides in the Cold War. He
was also passing on something seekers to the KGB to
the Soviets, which is interesting because I have a friend
who's a specialist in that area, and he translates old
KGB communicas and documents, and one of the articles that
he translated about ten years ago on his website was
about Robert Maxwell from the vantage point of the KGB.
And what's funny is that they actually said, Okay, we
think he's playing both sides and he's selling us secrets
as well, so they kind of knew what he was
up to and that was confirmed, assuming that Epstein is
telling the true story in this recent email, because it
says that what he did was he sort of took
it upon himself to say that he was going to
be the attachade to the Soviets for Massade, and they
didn't really want him to do that, but he did
it anyway, and then he tried to extort Massade for
four hundred million pounds, and that is important, according to Epstein,
what led to his untimely demise of falling off the boat.
But they still apparently gave him a, you know, a
heroes burial in Israel. So another person kind of like
that is James G. Sangleton, the Cold War person who
was very closely in the JFK files when that came out,
also liaison with Israel, and of course that shows a
degree of backdoor telecommunications and messaging with Masad, and then
partly I think motivation for Masaud and the CIA and
organized crime.
Speaker 2: To have a role in JFK. So yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up JFK because that was another
eye opener for me when I came to the knowledge.
And I don't know where you land on who's at
the top of this world power structure, but I do know,
and I think it's a new kind of hit term
has packed Judaica. There is definitely a rise of what's
happening in Israel according to their eschatology that they're pushing forward,
be it political or religious or both. It's happening, okay,
and everything that springs forth from that. Where was I
going with that? Oh? Regarding JFK though, So you've got
that going on. You've got JFK back in the late
fifties and sixties doing you know, he's writing angry letters
with David mc gurion. He's not letting them do what
they want with their nuclear testing. He's not wanting to
give what was previously known before Apak it was just
Israeli intelligence. I knew all that stuff already, all right,
And then they redacted. I think most of it. Of course,
it's you know, fifty sixty years later, so people don't
care quite as much. But what shocked me was this
most of the redactions that had been I'm sorry, the
unredactions that had been redacted for decades had to do
with anything to do with Jewish intelligence, Israeli intelligence. There
was a whole line about you know, we've got the
Jewish money now, like all this stuff that would be
highly embarrassing to Christian Zionists and their platforms, and I
was still it was the first time I was shocked
by this where it's like, this has been one of
those conspiracies that people have been asking about for decades.
It finally comes out. And I remember guys like Eric
Taxes and others, if they tweeted about it, they were like, oh,
so it was the CIA, Yeah, it was the CIA.
Speaker 2: It's like.
Speaker 1: I just I was. I was dumbfounded. And I guess
maybe you wouldn't be dumbfounded by that because you'd already
seen through a lot of the way that those people operate.
But it kind of told me also, why today with
something as dark and deep as this Epstein release and
the things that it's alluding to why they're just able
to ignore it and and not have to pay the
price for that.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's there's a complicated connection and intertwining of
a lot of interests. And I've always thought, going back
a year now, that the reason that Trump wasn't so
eager to release these was that, like Alex said that
he was asked, I think, on the on behalf of
you know, British intelligence and Israeli intelligence and the CIA,
to not do this because it would be too devastating
and destabilizing.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So that makes sense to me, And that's because I
think with Epstein, especially if you look into.
Speaker 2: The money managing and the.
Speaker 3: Mega Group and Les Wexner and the billionaires that are involved,
this would be the up ending of a lot of
the existing financial structure, the Fiat system. That's why it
was so I think amazing that you had the very
beginning of the Bandon interview. Epstein says, well, I was
also brought in through bear Stearns and what I learned
there to Rockefeller's networks of the Trilateral Commission, because I
understood high finance and fractional reserve banking, the Fiat debt system,
that we have. He said, I understood that so well
that I was able to explain that to a lot
of them. So they recruited me into trilateral, which again
shows that it's not well, is it the roll Trials
or is it David Rockefeller, is it Barzenski, or is
it Kissinger or who's a builder bird? They're all part
of the same steering groups, networks and committees, and the
Rothchilds and the rock Fillers work together. They're banking empires
that are joined at and heaven.
Speaker 2: For a long time.
Speaker 3: For example, in the United States, JP Morgan has been
for a long time a front for Rothchilds, so they
did have a presence here. It just wasn't called Roche
It was called JP Morgan and JP Morgan, Chase and
Chase Bank, and they've all been working together because at
that level, if you look at something like the Bank
for National Settlements, which is the Global feder Reserve, right,
America has it's Federal Reserve private bank, and the world
has it's Federal Reserve of Federal Reserves, which is the
BIS that was all set up post World War Two
by the entities that we're talking about, like JP Morgan
Bank and Allen Della set of Schroeder Bank, et cetera.
So that's who's really running the system and the sex
stuff and all of that. It's I mean, it matters,
but it plays a role in compromising those powerful people, right,
that's the blackmail side of it. Maxwell was doing that
kind of stuff too, back during the Cold War. So
this is not a new thing. It's an old thing.
We've lectured, for example on my channel for a long
time out of a bunch of books just from historians
about the history of sexpionage or sex blackmail. I mean,
this is this is a long time state practice. Nothing
new there either. In fact, for example, Japan was able
to have a lot of success in the Japanese Chinese
War back at the turn of the century because a
figure named Kinji Douihara. He was Japan's epstein, and he
was able to figure out how to set up a
network of brothels throughout China, put flood China with opium
and then compromise them and get the prostitutes to be spies.
And China basically was unable to fend off Japan's attacks
during that war. So I'm not trying to deflect off
of Epstein, but sure, just pointing out that this is
this is if you get into history, like this is
a pretty well known thing. But again, I mean Epstein
understood the Vatican Bank, he understood that it it's a
secret bank. He understood shadow banking, and a lot of that.
Speaker 2: Comes out in the band and interview.
Speaker 3: So that's the real, I think, crux of how they
know how to game the system by shorting markets on
the basis of advanced intelligence. And that's really important because
there's that famous story about Waterloo and the Rothchild's having
advanced intelligence and then buying up the market and the
UK stock market when it collapsed. Well, turns out in
the Rothchild's other osbiography there's a whole section where they
brag about that being true. They say, yes, of course
we were able through advanced intelligence to buy up the
stock market.
Speaker 2: There it is right there.
Speaker 3: And so what I'm getting at is that fast forward
two hundred years from the eighteen hundreds to now, and
Jeffrey was doing the exact same thing as the representati
of the Rothchild's saying yeah, we have advanced intelligence, we collapse
through chaos, and then we buy up on the fire
sale out of the chaos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an old system, there's no doubt about that.
I wish I had the different emails in front of me.
I'd like to get your take on what should people believe,
you know, because anybody can say, oh my gosh, they
were There's emails about satanic torture, rituals, child murder. I
mean the worst things like you just just think it
in your mind of how horrible it could be. And
I don't want to say because I don't want to get
kicked off of YouTube, but bad, bad stuff with small,
small children, and it's alluded to an emails. There's a
lot of the symbolic language. I'm not just talking about
the Pizzagate language, but I'm talking about even more clear stuff.
There's also a hatred of Christianity. There's making fun of
little girls that are saying I knew Jesus would be
with me and stuff like that that's just like really
dark and can lead people into if they believe in
the evil that much, there must be a god, then
Jesus must be real.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: My question and all that Jay, is this, what do
you believe people should should believe about this? When they
read the emails about the really dark stuff. What is true,
what is not? And how do you know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the ones that have been fake I think are
pretty obviously fake common sense wise. You know some of
those clip together AI pictures of Trump with little kids,
and I'm not just trying to defend Trump just to
defend Trump, but I mean that was obviously fake. The
email between Epstein and Maxwell about creating bitcoin was obviously fake.
It had two different two's up at the top, so
that was obviously a fake email.
Speaker 1: The other thing, let me clarify by question I'm not
talking about I shouldn't have said fake or real. I meant,
what is a joke where they're haha, like to them,
it's really dark, but it's locker room humor to them
versus no, they're really engaging in this stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good question.
Speaker 3: I mean some of that is a little hard to
decide for, Like you know, that's why I put a
tweet up today asking a question like when he says
the thing about shrimp and you cut the head off
and you keep the body, like, I mean, is he
talking about seafood or is he talking about something else?
Some of them are ambiguous. It's hard to say, but
I would say that given the the multitude of references,
it's really odd that they would be so obsessed with
beep jerky pizza and these these weird sort of code.
Speaker 2: Words, and the fact that they're redacted.
Speaker 3: Why would you redact a bunch of things and names
if they're just talking about junk food and seafood. So
I think that's very suspect and probably is the case,
because if you think about it, you know, if you
read C. S.
Speaker 2: Lewis's Space Trilogy, the.
Speaker 3: Third volume, it has this scientific institute called Nice, which
is supposed to be funny because they're like a satanic scientific,
you know, entity, like the Tavisak Institute basically, And one
of the things they do is that when they recruit
people into Nice, and csours is writing about the demonic
international control structure in that book, the aliens are actually demons.
Speaker 2: At Nice.
Speaker 3: They have a ritual where you're initiated, but you have
to degrade yourself and you have to do the most
degrading things to join, because then they know that you've
made your bones, like in the mafia, right, so they
have the dirt on you, so you're never going to
wrap them out because you've done the worst imaginable thing,
and I think that that's what's going on here, is
that for those people, it is kind of a Satanic joke.
Hard to know exactly how many of them took Satanism seriously,
but you don't have to take theistic Satanism seriously to
be under the control of Satan.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can be atheist. You've been atheist to
me engaging in this.
Speaker 3: I mean some of the emails between biologist and people
like that, talking about how you can do worse things
with kids. I'll just leave it at that, like that
suggests you know that these people are I mean, you
can be an atheist to be completely degraded.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There were two Christians who are well known who were
mad at me for things that I was saying, tying
Epstein to the Tumud, or to to Israel or Judaism
or whatever, and both of them the route they took
was to say, well, he worked for Arab nations as well,
and there's just as much, just as much evidence that
he was being funded also by that. I think one
mentioned Katar. You know, it's like I've read I've never
met an Arab or heard of any mom that uses
Goyam as a phrase in like multiple emails. I've never
seen anybody of any other faith have the prime minister
come like the Israeli Prime Minister come visit a whole
bunch and talk about the jew It's the Jews versus
the world. Presently Jews are winning. Like, how do you
tie him or do you tie him to religious Judaism
or I think from my own research, is not as
much the nation of Israel itself, but it's more like
he was proud of his Jewish heritage and spoke of
it often alongside of these really dark emails.
Speaker 3: Well, Judaism has a lot of ways that you could
can take it. I mean, you have people who are
Jewish who have basically no beliefs, atheistic, and you have
you know, people who are extreme Rabbinic Jews who when
you get into Telmuodick and rabbinic rabbinic philosophy and theology.
I mean, it's basically just like a cult and doesn't
really differ in any way from other weird cults in
terms of the practices, the irrational rules and.
Speaker 2: Legalities.
Speaker 3: But also within other world religions, even Islam at a
very high level, you can have people who are in
an inner core clique that don't act or profess what
the public, profane members of the religion and the masses
have right, So there could always be these kind of
inner clicks. For example, if you read Ezekiel, you'll remember
that Ezekiel has shown a vision at one point where
he sees that behind what's going on in the temple worship,
they have a secret compartment where they're engaging in abominable
practices on the download in the tunnels. So there has
always been this tradition, I think, within any religion, and
that includes tumudig Judaism too, to have an inner, secret
approach and a secret religion that practices all kinds of
who knows what, And that again, this is what even
the prophets themselves talk about. Jeremiah talks about the Jews
practicing human sacrifice while on the face of it they
pretend that they're righteous. So this goes back to the
Old Testament, This goes back to the ancient world. Shouldn't
be surprising that there would still be these kinds of traditions.
And one of the things that Epstein see to refer to,
especially in the Bannon interview, is Kabbala, which is medieval
Jewish mysticism, which can range from speculations about numerology and
gematria all the way over to ritual magic, creating sigils,
invoking and trying to control dybooks or demons. And it's
interesting that Leslie Wesner himself has said in interviews that
he does believe and he's not joking that he's possessed
by a dybbuk, which is the Hebrew word for a devil.
So there is absolutely a component of cabalistic mysticism in
terms of Epstein's philosophy, so far from what I've seen
from the interview, and that's the public Bannon interview.
Speaker 2: Go ahead. Well, there was also that.
Speaker 3: Picture too, where it's hard to tell exactly. It could
just be an old set of encyclopedias, but it does
look like there's a picture with him with the set
of the Talmud behind him. So I wouldn't be surprised
if he didn't have obviously some tumutic influence. And you
don't have to go into buying a fifty volume Talmud set.
I mean, you can get academic texts like Peter Schaefer,
who himself is a Jewish scholar, has a book called
Jesus and the Talmud.
Speaker 2: There's a whole chapter on how Plashimus the Talmud is.
Speaker 1: So yes, I've got it right over there. It was
very enlightening, and he wrote it in such a way.
I mean, I did not know he was Jewish. I
actually thought he was German. But he I mean, he's
a Princeton professor, and yeah, he's very, very respected even
by among Jewish people.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, evangelicals just need to come to grips
with the fact that rabbinic telmeutic Judaism is nothing like
the Old Testament proto Christianity. Right, Old Testament Hebrew Christianity
is what prepares the way for the Church. Yes, and
that's not what today's rabbinic Jews teaching. In fact, Rebinic
Judaism even says, you don't read those texts, you don't
read the Torah. You read the Talmud and that tells
you what the Torah means.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, there's a really weird thing. And I deal
with this all the time because again I'm still in
this world and maybe I still respect these people too much,
and it drives me nuts. It's probably a personal flaw,
really and I need to consider them a little bit
more irrelevant. But you've got all these evangelical leaders that
are leading their flocks to do service trips in Israel,
to kiss the wall, to love Israel, to the They
would never call it worship, but that is actually what
it is. I've just seen that they turn a blind
eye to every evil and it's crazy. But yet, if
I show them a video of the most celebrated Talmudic
Kabbalistic wizard of the twentieth century, it would be the
revy Menochem Schneerson, and people would say these samely. It
would say, well, that's an outlier, that's a marginal thing. No,
it's not. That's where Mike Huckabee and Trump will go,
symbolically at minimum to pray and to throw their little
prayers at his grave. And it's just super weird. And
then I could show these same people, Okay, what did
he preach in his synagogues and translate his weird Yiddish
Hebrew to English and he's speaking straight Kabbalah. He's straight
up saying our souls is Jewish people, we're the chosen
ones of God. We have different souls from the sphere
of light. And the Goyam they have souls of darkness,
and through our ticcoon alone, we're going to save the world.
And you know he believed in the Noahyde laws and
that gets into Jewish eschatology, which I was never taught.
And you see it happening. It's like, what for that
little country with so few people to actually accomplish what
they would need, They would need to fool the biggest,
most powerful countries in the world, well, which which you
know wall are all these countries' leaders kissing. It's that
little wall over there, whatever it is, And I just
I am every day, Jay, I'm bothered by this because
I can't stand for Christian leaders who should see something
so clear, that's so obvious to completely just be blind.
I don't know if they're blind to it or if
they know what's going on, and it just pays too well,
I just don't know what it is. Can you help
me with that?
Speaker 3: Probably all the above going on, because you know, I
remember when I was a Christian Zionist, you know, when
I was younger. I've still got my scho filled Bible
and I got my John Hagee Prophecy studied Bible over there.
Speaker 2: Than I had when I was nineteen.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean I remember what it was like
to think in that way, and I think the things
that began to really kind of make that crumble for
me was I started realizing there's all these New Testament
passages which are very clear that at the First Advent
Jesus brought the Kingdom and brought the Church and fulfilled
what the nation state of Israel and the Old Testament
was a type of. So if Israel is a type,
it doesn't really make any sense to continue to think
of what has been fulfilled as this future reality to yeah,
be fulfilled. So in other words, when Galatians six says
that the church at Galatia is the Israel of God,
when Paul says in Galatians three that you're in Christ
through faith, You're the seat of Abraham through faith in Christ,
there's no other seat of Abraham. In fact, Galatia, when
he gives an algory, he says, those who serve at
the temple are of this world, and they have no
right to eat our flesh, our Christ, our Eucharist. Compare
that to Hebrews thirteen, where he says we have an
altar which we eat the sacrifice and of the Church,
that those who serve at the tabernacle have no right
to eat. So Judaism is presented as an Old Testament
thing that is now fulfilled. It is done and evangelical
Zionism is a form of Judaizing heresy which doesn't recognize it.
In Matthew twenty one forty three, when Jesus gives the
parable of the bind Dresser, he says to the Phariseasons
of the Jews, he says, you reject the message of
the prophets, and then when the sun comes you reject him. Therefore,
the Kingdom of God is taken from you and given
to a nation, producing the frue self thereof predicting the
largely gentile Church, and that's exactly what we see in
the Book of Acts. The Church shifts from largely Jewish
in the first ten chapters to largely Gentile. No, that
doesn't mean that Jews can't be saved, and I do
believe Romans eleven does predict a future conversion of the Jews.
But Judaism as such, or the Nason of Israel as such,
is not what those texts are talking about.
Speaker 2: The Church is.
Speaker 1: Israel, where would your eschatology. As an Orthodox person land
today generally ten thousand foot level, you don't have to
get into every nuance.
Speaker 3: For Orthodox Christianity, pre millennialism is condemned by the Second
Ecumenical Council, So you cannot be achillist. You can't believe
in a literal thousand years because the thousand years is
equated to the Kingdom and to the Church, and so
if Jesus brought that at his first advent, no Orthodox
Christian can affirm any kind of millennialism in a literal sense.
So post millennial or a millennial would be the norm
amongst every church father and everybody for the first thousand
years of Christianity.
Speaker 1: Would you hold two post or a millennialism.
Speaker 3: I tend to favor of post millennial view, but I'm
not hard set on that. I think it's there's there's
flexibility there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would favor it too, just because it's the
winning I like as an athlete athlete man like I hate,
you know, fighting for something. I remember going to a
Charlie Kirk event where I was I was a donor
back in the day when I first kicked all this off.
So I went down to Phoenix and I met with
his teams and you know, did the whole thing you
do as a for a donor invite thing. And I
remember reading his mantra for Turning Point and it was
going on the offensive to win the culture war for
Christ and I'm thinking, but Charlie Kirk's own premillennial dispensationalism
says he's really going to lose this culture war and
be raptured, and then it's going to get really awful,
and then Jesus is going to come back at the
end of that and you know, save the day, which
is great, but it's like it was a weird juxtaposition
between you got this guy who's full of energy and
wants to do the right thing, but really within his
own theology, he's building a tiny pyramid of success within
a much larger pyramid that he believes in that is
going to count him out, you know what I'm saying,
And that that conflict really bothered me. And that's actually
the avenue with which I discovered the truth about Schofield
and Darby and even some of the Jesuits before that.
It was maybe a strange way into that knowledge, but
where I began to learn the truth about some of
those eschatologies. So what else do you have to say
on the Epstein thing, man, Because I feel like we're
leaving some things on the table here. I should have
written more questions down before we started. What are some
other things you feel that people need to know about it?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: I think, you know, again, it really vindicates the hunch
that a lot of people in the conspiracy world had
they didn't know all the details.
Speaker 2: Maybe they couldn't fill everything in.
Speaker 3: But just how wide scale and wide scope this this
operation actually was. And you know, I think that at
the top of the pyramid on the earthly plane, I
guess you could say you have Rothschilds, Rockefellers, banking and
corporate elites. There is a large, you know, Zionist component
to that, for sure, but it's not exclusively that. For example,
one of the emails that even surprised me was that
Epstein had been scheduled to meet with like fifteen heads
of state across the world. He had this like planned out,
He's going to go to all these different countries, and
I think we see that a lot of say, you know,
Saudi or Islamic countries. You know, really at that level
of heads of state. It's it's an international networking of elites.
It's not tied to a nation state. Right, so we
might think that, oh, well, the Muslims hate the Jews.
Speaker 2: Actually, and I was.
Speaker 3: I was very ignorant of Islam even back in the
two as a Christian. It's only been in the last
seven or eight years that I've really gotten heavy into
studying the history of Islam and debating all the top
Muslims except for Muhammad, a job who won't agree to
a debate.
Speaker 2: But Islam is talmutic. This is what people don't understand.
Speaker 3: Like people think, oh, well, if Christianity is true and
Judaism is actually the thing that's subverting Christianity and the
rabbinical Talmudic philosophy is evil, then the Muslims must be
good because they're not as blasphemous as the Jews. Well,
what people don't realize is that many scholars who are
fairly neutral on the subject, they're not committed to any position.
They've been reconstructing the actual origins of the influence on
Muhammad for many, many years, many decades. It turns out
that Muhammad was very influenced by the Talmud many, many,
many hadiths, and many many sections of the Qur'an are
directly out of Talmudic traditions. So what I think we
get with the early phases of Islam is a person
who was illiterate, in the case of Muhammad, and so
he was hearing these these traditions and these stories about
the prophets, and he was hearing about Jews, and he
was hearing about this Jesus character, and he crafts his
own religion, which he says originally early on, is I
want this to be a way to reconcile Jews and
Christians with my philosophy that is ultimately a religion for
the Arab peoples. So it begins with something as the
revelation to the Arabs, because Muhammad thought that Judaism was
God's revelation for Jews, and Christianity was Allah's revelation for
the Christians, and then he would bring the revelation for
the Arab peoples. So he saw it in a very
ethnic way early on, and then he gets gets more
and more radical and warlike in the later phases of
the Qur'an to where he conceives of it as a
jad that's also literal. So I think we have to
be very careful because I see a lot of evangelicals
and a big fan of Tucker. Tucker's having me on
a show that the whole segment with him, and I
like Tucker, but I think he's also kind of leaning
into this position, and that the Hodgewins and others are thinking, well, hey,
maybe Islam's not that bad, maybe they're actually on our side.
Speaker 2: No, no, it's not true at all.
Speaker 3: They're they're absolutely anti Christ when you get into the
real meat potatoes of what Islam teaches, and in fact,
Muslims many people have said this, and even rabbis say
Islam is the broom of Judaism. So if you're a
Christian in the West, that's how to understand that. And no,
the Imams are not your friends. Their Islam is not
your friend at all. Just because they don't have as
blasphemous language. Well, it doesn't matter, John saysn't one John.
Anybody who denies that Christ is the son of the
Father and flesh is of the spirit of Antichrist. And
that is fundamental to Islam to deny the deity of Christ.
Whole religion is predicated on denying the deity of Christ,
and it is rabbinically influenced heavily. So nobody should be
misunderstanding this. And it doesn't make you don't fall into
the low IQ dialectics of thinking that if you're against Islam,
then you might be a Zionist, or if you're against
Zionism you must be pro Islam can.
Speaker 2: Be we're both of those.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Where Tucker and others and the Hodge twins would
be coming at this is they didn't know anything about Islam.
They thought they did, and then they found out that
when you talk to an act that.
Speaker 2: Happened to me, this is me in the two thousands.
I was in that same boat.
Speaker 3: I didn't know about anything about Islam, and I thought, oh, well,
maybe the Muslims are because they're Patsy's on nine to eleven.
Maybe they were innocent. It's way more complex than that.
But the religion is actually tell what, Dick, how.
Speaker 1: Would you when you say it's anti Christ? But yet
I will have a Muslim two or three that I
know they will bless Christ in the way they talk
about him. They will tell me that they don't believe
that he is the Messiah in terms of a deity
being the son of God. They do not believe that,
but they do say very kind things about him. Now
I know that that's that's still denying him as the Messiah.
That's a big deal. But in comparison, and this is
why I'm saying, Tucker and Hodge Twins and many others
would say, well, at least they're a little closer because
they have good things to say about Jesus. In fact,
one Muslim person, when he knew I was really into
a difficult conversation about Zionism with another Christian of mine,
friend of mine, he told me he's like, treat them
like Christ, to treat them like Jesus Christ. He was
using that as a way for you know, so, I
don't know what would you say to that.
Speaker 3: No, there, I mean Muslim it's actually in the Qur'an
to despise them in your heart and smile with your face.
That's one of the lines in the Koran. So they
do believe in the principle that you can lie to
for the sake of jahad. You can lie to those
who are not Muslims because they're actually guilty of shirk.
So if you believe in the Trinity Muslims already believe
that you are guilty of idolatry and you are liable
to be put to death when Muslims have the power
to do so. And that is absolutely true. In fact,
we've compiled many moms, especially Salafi and Sunni and moms,
they actually say this in their sermons. They just say,
befriend them until you have the upper hand and you
subdue them and subject them. And yes, it is they
are liable to be put to dead. Now, there can
be different situations under Islamic law or what's called thick
where in some situations they might tolerate you, but that
doesn't mean that they're going to put a tax on you.
They're gonna make you submit to Sharia law. They're gonna
make you submit to And you have to understand that
there's as many Islamic sects as there are almost Protestant sects,
So there's different ways of approaching this. Because when you
bring this up, some Muslim will say, well, a Saud
protected Christians. That's true, a Sad is a sect of
Muslims alo white that has a more positive attitude, and
that might even be true in Iran, right, but that
doesn't mean that the rest of the religion is in
any way ultimately compatible with Christianity because there are these
sectarian examples. I mean, you can find Christian sects that
are pacifist. Well, that doesn't make Christianity pacifist, right. So
in the same way, Islam, in terms of its fundamental
tax and it's hadiths, is a very crazy it's a
crazy cult.
Speaker 2: It's insane. You only have to get into Just go
watch some of my debates with the Muslims and you'll
see this very very quickly.
Speaker 1: I think, okay, I think one last thing I'll say
on this, and then we're going to move on to
a subscriber only thing for about ten more minutes. The
problem for the average mind who has broken out of
worshiping the Jews as having a second Covenant running in
the background. So now we're seeing it clearly, and we're like, well,
the Muslims didn't kill JFK. The Muslims didn't attack the
US's liberty. The Muslims might have had a hand in
nine to eleven, but it seems like Israel did too,
So you know, the Muslims probably didn't have anything to
do with Charlie Kirk's death. But Israel might have you know,
you go down the line and it's like the Muslims.
Jeffrey Epstein wasn't Muslim, and he was calling us goyam,
which is a Jewish thing. So all these things are
stacked up. And then you've got every single Glenn Beck
out there just chanting all day long about the evils
of Islam, the evils of Islam. But yet there's this
awakening happening where all of us Christians are like, okay,
but we hear you, Glenn, but we've heard that our
whole life. And you're not talking about all this stuff,
like when the truth came out about JFK, you're just
ignoring it. And oh, on top of that, it's not
all of our politicians are not going to Mecca and
kissing that cube. They're going and kissing the wall and
you know, kind of doing this what I think is
a humiliation ritual where they're saying, we're subservient to this future,
whatever this plan is. And just the same way you
describe Jay of Islamic eschatology and where they think all
this is going and how you know they'll be kind
to your face until they can subdue you and kill
you or whatever. The Jewish eschatology is exactly the same.
So that I think that's why Epstein wrote Jews Versus
the World Jews currently.
Speaker 2: Winning, yeah again.
Speaker 3: And both of those principles for both of the religions
are Talmudic. It's a Talmudic dual ethic principle that's in
Judaism and in Islam, to have one ethic for the
outside letters and a separate ethic for the insiders.
Speaker 1: I learned the other day from Yanadanoon and her husband
who lived in Israel for a long time and they
discovered they were a Christian Zionists. They discovered what you're
talking about and left. They told me that in this
this lends credibility to what you're saying. They said that
under Jewish what is it Hallockic law? Is that the
right word that a Jewish person can pray in a
mosque and it's a valid prayer, but they cannot pray
in a Christian church.
Speaker 4: You did.
Speaker 2: Many rabbis have that ruling.
Speaker 3: And but remember Judaism is very flexible because in traditional
Jewish practice, you don't ask a bunch of different rabbis.
Speaker 2: You just asked your rabbi. And in their system.
Speaker 3: Typically God is giving you your answer through whatever rabbi
that you asked, So you don't like go check fact
check a bunch of you know, rabbis to find the
true rabbinic position, so you can have Judaism. Again, that's atheistic,
or that's Haraati, or that's it's all over the place.
Speaker 2: So uh, yeah, but I've.
Speaker 3: Heard many rabbis give the ruling that to pray inside
a Christian church would be idolatry because they don't worship
the Trinity. But because Muslims worship the One God, it's uh,
it's not idolatry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and that makes sense. Well, to everyone watching
on substack, keep watching. To everyone else, come on over
to j SLAYUSA dot com and you can watch this
full feature with Jay Dyer. What is your take on
Trump's involvement with Epstein? What what you've seen of his
name in the files?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Just in general, I'll lay it out there. What's your
your opening take on that