Speaker 1: Will you wait, Miss.
Speaker 2: Exist Sis, Welcome back Midnight Viewers to Fusco Fest, where
Speaker 2: we are taking a look at the filmography of screenwriter
Speaker 2: John Fusco.
Speaker 3: So far, we've covered Crossroads, Young Guns, Young Guns Too,
Speaker 3: and then out of order we did the Babe. But
Speaker 3: we're now back to setting things right with this week's selection.
Speaker 3: A Thunderheart joining me as always is the host of
Speaker 3: Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast HP. How are you HP?
Speaker 4: I'm doing well, father alone? How are you tonight?
Speaker 3: Oh me? Thank you for asking. I'm well now. Given
Speaker 3: the subject matter and how I abhor the idea of
Speaker 3: another podcast about an indigenous people conducted entirely by suburban
Speaker 3: white guys, I've invited a special guest to join us.
Speaker 3: She is a member of the Moapa Band of Paiutes
Speaker 3: in southern Nevada and works for the tribe as a
Speaker 3: project director for adult wellness and childcare programs. Please welcome
Speaker 3: Ashley Marie tom Osborne. Welcome to Midnight of Viewing.
Speaker 5: Ashley, Oh, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 3: It is entirely our pleasure. I hope you can set
Speaker 3: us straight on some of the misconceptions surrounding this film
Speaker 3: and well Native films in general, we'll get to it.
Speaker 3: I think this might this film might be better than most.
Speaker 3: But anyway, the movie we're talking about here today is
Speaker 3: the fourth in the filmography of John Fusco. This is Thunderheart.
Speaker 6: There's been a homicide on Indian Land.
Speaker 7: They sent him to a foreign land.
Speaker 1: What's my cover?
Speaker 7: In the middle of America? You're going in?
Speaker 8: There?
Speaker 9: Is who you are?
Speaker 1: American Indian Federal office.
Speaker 7: To uncover the truth?
Speaker 3: Federal offs their hands on your head?
Speaker 1: What's your name?
Speaker 9: Sure as hell?
Speaker 6: Ain't Geronimo chief?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 9: Maybe you guys got off the wrong exit.
Speaker 1: Yuh.
Speaker 9: He's looking from Alt Rushmore. Who are you, Walter crow
Speaker 9: Horse tribal police?
Speaker 5: You must be the Indian in FDI.
Speaker 1: That's right? What nation?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 2: They're your own people, aren't they?
Speaker 1: They are not my people?
Speaker 3: Hey, look the Washington redskin.
Speaker 9: Whoever killed they? Oh walks heel toe.
Speaker 6: This guy was a big son of a bucket. That's say,
Speaker 6: goes two ten, two fifteen.
Speaker 1: You're gonna tell me how much change he had in his.
Speaker 3: Pocket sixty three cents.
Speaker 9: Now to find the truth, he must face the mystery
Speaker 9: within himself.
Speaker 6: Says he knew he were coming here he was told,
Speaker 6: who told him, Oh, gosh, are their spirits.
Speaker 3: We can't get suckered into that. We're here to take
Speaker 3: our man and go home.
Speaker 1: You can chamship shift into different animals.
Speaker 9: You gotta stop him. Listen to the wind will tell
Speaker 9: me things. Cola, you had yourself a vision, said you're
Speaker 9: chasing the wrong man. You said we should follow this.
Speaker 3: Oh, pither one of us gets hit ray, it'll be
Speaker 3: all she wrote.
Speaker 9: The owl is a messenger.
Speaker 6: It means somebody's gonna die.
Speaker 1: Under hard As Come.
Speaker 3: Released on April the third, nineteen ninety two. It was
Speaker 3: directed by Michael Aptid, written by John Fusco. Cinematographied Roger
Speaker 3: Deakins My God, music by James Horner. Starring Val Kilmer,
Speaker 3: Ram Green, Sam Shepard, Shila Tausi, Fred Ward, Ted Thinnelk,
Speaker 3: and John Trudell. It is about a murder that occurs
Speaker 3: on a reservation in South Dakota. The FBI sins in
Speaker 3: agent Ray Levoy, played by Valcumer, based on his one
Speaker 3: quarter Siux heritage. His father was half Sue, even though
Speaker 3: he's had no contact with either family or his culture
Speaker 3: since age. Since the age of seven, during his investigation,
Speaker 3: he comes up against a corrupt local militia headed by
Speaker 3: Fred Ward while investigating Arm the Aboriginal Rights Movement, a
Speaker 3: group of Native activists that are the prime suspects for
Speaker 3: the murder. The events depicted are loosely based on the
Speaker 3: Wounded Knee incidem seventy three, with Arms standing in for
Speaker 3: Aim the American Indian Movement who sees control of the
Speaker 3: town of Wounded Knee that ended with three dead and
Speaker 3: over a dozen wounded. Now, ordinarily I would kick it
Speaker 3: to you, Harrison, to ask you about your the first
Speaker 3: time you saw this movie. I'm gonna go straight to Ashley. Ashley,
Speaker 3: when did you first see this movie? What were your thoughts? Then?
Speaker 3: What are they now? On rewatch?
Speaker 7: When I was probably about in high school, I saw
Speaker 7: the movie because a lot of my family we love
Speaker 7: like watching movies, and we always make the joke like, hey,
Speaker 7: natives watching natives, So we're always curious about depictions. And
Speaker 7: even though yes, I could say I had a really
Speaker 7: positive experience, but I know I have my qualms, which
Speaker 7: I'll share later, But I honestly think that with the
Speaker 7: mystery and the cultural exploration, I really that aspect of it,
Speaker 7: especially like a lot.
Speaker 5: Of the themes of discrimination was really spot on. In
Speaker 5: my opinion.
Speaker 7: It still kind of makes me a little uncomfortable seeing
Speaker 7: some scenes in a way, but it's sort of like
Speaker 7: in a sense of realities because each of us have
Speaker 7: either been in situations that sort of parallel those kind
Speaker 7: of lines of discrimination. And then of course, like the
Speaker 7: activism and the historical injustice, like that was part of
Speaker 7: something that really speaks because that's pretty much even though
Speaker 7: that it aim is actually what it's based off of,
Speaker 7: which is called the American Indian Movement. I kind of
Speaker 7: like how they kind of incorporated that story in there
Speaker 7: as well, because in a way it does need to
Speaker 7: be heard and seen by larger audiences on such like
Speaker 7: a huge impact in tribal communities. And then of course
Speaker 7: the cinematography. I'm a big dort for that. I think
Speaker 7: that the beautiful landscapes of the reservation is it really
Speaker 7: brings a lot of sense of home. I know that
Speaker 7: it might be a little rough around the edges for
Speaker 7: people that have never even seen a reservation, because like
Speaker 7: it's supposed to be loosely based off of Pine Ridge.
Speaker 7: But even though that we had isolated homes and a
Speaker 7: lot of struggles with a lot of like social class,
Speaker 7: especially being in poverty. But I believe that remote reservations
Speaker 7: are an expression of our resilience because it really takes
Speaker 7: tough boots to be living out there. I grew up
Speaker 7: on one, so yeah, that's kind of what I think
Speaker 7: overall in general.
Speaker 3: Right on HB, what was your first viewing of the movie?
Speaker 1: Then?
Speaker 3: What do you think of it now?
Speaker 4: So I'm sure I saw this when it was on
Speaker 4: cable back it probably aired ninety three, I would guess,
Speaker 4: obviously a big fan of Valcilmer then and now. I
Speaker 4: probably didn't know what to make.
Speaker 3: Of it at the time.
Speaker 4: I didn't know enough about the true world events that
Speaker 4: it was based on, like Leonard Peltier and Pine Ridge and.
Speaker 3: All that stuff.
Speaker 4: So really, it would say watching it in advance for
Speaker 4: this podcast was kind of a new experience for me,
Speaker 4: seeing it with kind of more opened eyes and more
Speaker 4: informed So I and it's hard. You can't disconnect it
Speaker 4: from obviously the passing of Val Kilmer, so that weighed
Speaker 4: heavily on my viewing of it. I think it's a
Speaker 4: fantastic movie. I agree with Ashley. I think this is
Speaker 4: an important story that needs to be told. I don't
Speaker 4: think there's enough movies that focus on issues in the
Speaker 4: Native American population. But having said that, I also agree
Speaker 4: with Ashley that I had my problems with the movie
Speaker 4: as progressive and as important as it was, especially at
Speaker 4: the time. There's a few things, and actually I'm really
Speaker 4: curious to get Ashley's take on some of these things
Speaker 4: that I had problems with. But but yeah, this was
Speaker 4: ultimately this was it felt like the first time I
Speaker 4: saw it this past time I watched it.
Speaker 3: Are we all talking about the mysticism? Yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's the only real flaw in this film.
Speaker 7: I agree mostly Like for me, I think it was
Speaker 7: like the mixed blood hero trope. Well with Ray the
Speaker 7: mixed heritage. He embraces his native identity, which I mean,
Speaker 7: like in a lot of instances, a lot of people
Speaker 7: do have a disconnection with culture and then returning to
Speaker 7: that culture. I understand that is like a real journey.
Speaker 7: But while it allows that compelling personal journey, I would
Speaker 7: argue that it reinforces the idea that native wisdom must
Speaker 7: be discovered through a non traditional outsider. And what I
Speaker 7: mean is reconnecting with your roots through unexpected circumstances like
Speaker 7: when crow Horse and Grandpa Sam sort of introduced Ray
Speaker 7: to Native spirituality. But like my space take is like
Speaker 7: when the trading of the rolex for a peace pipe
Speaker 7: is sort of like a metaphorical acceptance of his identity,
Speaker 7: and I think it sort of cheapens the experience, so
Speaker 7: in a way it leads into like appropriation of Native spirituality.
Speaker 7: Like I understand that visuals and spiritual guidance are a
Speaker 7: key of race transformation, but I think it like commodifies
Speaker 7: the culture in a way that it caters to like
Speaker 7: more Western audiences, and I believe that reconnecting with your
Speaker 7: cultural roots isn't always this grand performance of soul searching
Speaker 7: like through a vision luss. So I'm like, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 7: like talking to the wind and like things of that
Speaker 7: nature is like yeah, we I mean, I know sometimes
Speaker 7: we like to joke and mock those like stereotypes, but
Speaker 7: I think in reality that's not what it's really like.
Speaker 7: And then my other second like sort of issue was
Speaker 7: the lone Rangeo and Tonto dynamic. Oh yes, because I
Speaker 7: love Graham Green, Like I mean, in the Native community,
Speaker 7: he's like a superstar, So I think that relationship between
Speaker 7: Ray and Walter Crowhors has always been compared to that
Speaker 7: class of trope in my opinion because like white hero
Speaker 7: and Native sidekick, because since he's so what we call colonized,
Speaker 7: but since he's not really like familiar with his roots,
Speaker 7: he does sort of have the more like colonized Western
Speaker 7: perspective at birst. So that's why I kind of say
Speaker 7: white hero, well, pro horse is such a strong character
Speaker 7: in my opinion, and he still plays a supportive role
Speaker 7: in range journey rather than being like a central figure.
Speaker 7: That's kind of like those are.
Speaker 3: Like my two big Let's send some other tropes too,
Speaker 3: because I've heard a lot level that at this film.
Speaker 3: I've heard a lot level that a lot of Native
Speaker 3: films poverty porn. Do you think this movie registers anywhere
Speaker 3: in the poverty porn scale?
Speaker 7: I believe so, because there's like a huge dynamic that
Speaker 7: people don't really realize is that like when you just
Speaker 7: focus on that, it's it gives this people this the
Speaker 7: stereotype that oh that all reservations must be like that,
Speaker 7: oh look at them, oh poor them, And it really
Speaker 7: has such like a negative stereotype that I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Like,
Speaker 7: reservations are very beautiful despite being isolated, I know, like
Speaker 7: back at home or just about an hour outside of Vegas,
Speaker 7: Like there's such beautiful landscapes, beautiful sunrises, beautiful sunsets, a
Speaker 7: lot of animals, a lot of natural resources around you,
Speaker 7: even especially when the Muddy River runs through a lot
Speaker 7: of wildlife that you don't get to experience like obviously
Speaker 7: in the city. And also the essence of community. I
Speaker 7: know that that was sort of not really highlighted. It
Speaker 7: showed a lot of the conflicts between the natives that
Speaker 7: are sorting kind of like conspirizing with the FBI and
Speaker 7: like all of that, and then of course like the
Speaker 7: a movement aspect, and then the people there. It's like
Speaker 7: it's there's not that much separation when it comes to community,
Speaker 7: because how we survive is within our community and our resilience.
Speaker 7: And so it's a lot of showing that, oh, look
Speaker 7: at them, for them, Oh they must be so sad,
Speaker 7: And it just kind of kind of rose me the
Speaker 7: wrong way because I'm like, no, reservations are beautiful, They're
Speaker 7: not necessarily always so heavily dark and sad, and that's
Speaker 7: what I don't really like how it kind of comes
Speaker 7: off a little bit in some of the scenes where
Speaker 7: like you see the decaying houses and a lot of
Speaker 7: I guess you could say like kind of separation. I
Speaker 7: know that like with me growing up, we did have
Speaker 7: running water, electricity. I know some reservations probably during in
Speaker 7: that timeframe didn't. But it's not something that should be
Speaker 7: like highly focused on in a scene. It sort of
Speaker 7: takes away from what's actually going on within the story.
Speaker 3: It kind of negates the diversity of what life on
Speaker 3: a reservation could be. I'm sure, for instance, for our
Speaker 3: listeners who cannot see you, Ashley is a Goth, I
Speaker 3: think you would say that pretty proudly, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, punk and goth influences.
Speaker 3: Yes, she's sitting in a black Cleopatra chair right now,
Speaker 3: for fuck's sake, So you've stolen my culture. You know
Speaker 3: what's interesting, We'll get to the plot in the sort
Speaker 3: of machinations of the film and particularly Graham Green, because
Speaker 3: Walter Crowhorse is the greatest character in this film, and
Speaker 3: it's fucking shocking. We didn't get a series of films
Speaker 3: or books or comic books or anything with Walter crow Horse.
Speaker 3: That's staggering. But I will say as a white viewer
Speaker 3: watching the film. As soon as Ray sort of makes
Speaker 3: the switch and realizes he's been on the wrong side
Speaker 3: the whole time, in my opinion, he became Tonto. He's
Speaker 3: Walter's sidekick for the rest of the movie. I kind
Speaker 3: of viewed the rest of the movie the way I
Speaker 3: view Big Trouble in Little China. That movie another movie
Speaker 3: sort of you can level a lot of cultural appropriation
Speaker 3: and like leveling the all the hidden mysticism of the
Speaker 3: of these Asian peoples. But in that movie, very definitely,
Speaker 3: Kurt Russell is just the fucking sidekick and that flick
Speaker 3: he is a bumbler at best. So I don't think
Speaker 3: that necessarily negates what you're saying, because clearly I never
Speaker 3: even thought of it as the old Lone Ranger and
Speaker 3: Tonto thing, but now it kind of makes sense seeing
Speaker 3: them tramping through and Thelcilmer leading the way and everything.
Speaker 4: But one of the things I love best that's a
Speaker 4: great comparison Father alone the Big Trouble Little China, because ultimately,
Speaker 4: Walter Crowhorse is always two or three steps ahead of
Speaker 4: every move that Ray tries to make, because he understands
Speaker 4: very quickly that Ray is part of this corrupt situation
Speaker 4: coming into the reservation, and they've come in, they already
Speaker 4: know who they want to the suspect they want to
Speaker 4: frame up on this, and Walter Crowhorse is very aware
Speaker 4: of what they're up to, so he's already he's doing
Speaker 4: his own investigating. So at every juncture, he is way
Speaker 4: ahead of Ray and the rest of the government folks,
Speaker 4: because he's the one actually looking for the real killers,
Speaker 4: looking for justice for this murder. So I think that
Speaker 4: supports your assertion, Father Malone, that in fact, Ray is
Speaker 4: the sidekick, even though he's the one who kind of
Speaker 4: leads the charge at the end the chase away from
Speaker 4: the government forces. For me, I think Walter Crowhorse I agree.
Speaker 4: Number one, he's my favorite character in the movie. And
Speaker 4: number two, I think that Ray is subordinate to Walter
Speaker 4: at every point in the movie. I never because it
Speaker 4: takes half of the movie for Ray to even have
Speaker 4: his spiritual awakening, which is what precipitates his whole change
Speaker 4: of focus and his change of perception of what's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now, I'd like to double back to that because
Speaker 3: that was the other trope you kind of had a
Speaker 3: problem with, and could not agree more because here's the thing.
Speaker 3: If you stripped away all of the mysticism of this movie,
Speaker 3: it's a fucking perfect movie. It's just an examination of
Speaker 3: life and what's going on on the reservation. You didn't
Speaker 3: need one bit of it. Like you can do a
Speaker 3: fucking Irish story and not go to church at any point.
Speaker 3: It's not necessary. Yeah, we're known for it, but come on, I.
Speaker 7: Agree because that's sort of like something that I think
Speaker 7: I've experienced where I talk about like discriminated like parallels,
Speaker 7: is that, Yeah, he is like way ahead of the game.
Speaker 5: He knows, he's very aware, and nobody's listening.
Speaker 7: To him and sort of undermines him, disrespects him, and
Speaker 7: it's like something that like, that's what I kind of
Speaker 7: like about that part of the plot is that that
Speaker 7: is actually a real experience that a lot of people
Speaker 7: from any minorities have faced, where these people.
Speaker 5: Come in in suits, they're trying to tell them what
Speaker 5: to do.
Speaker 7: They're not listening to anyone else, they're not even familiar
Speaker 7: with the community or culture, and they're coming in and
Speaker 7: telling them how things are. And then like people that
Speaker 7: are aware, they're like wait, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 7: and especially like with I forgot her name, but she
Speaker 7: was the school teacher.
Speaker 5: The other one that really stuck out to me, or
Speaker 5: her character. It's been a minute since I've seen the film.
Speaker 3: But I remember her quite what you're talking about, Shila Towsey,
Speaker 3: her characters.
Speaker 5: Eagle Bear Yes, yes, Maggie yes.
Speaker 7: And the reason why it stuck out to me is
Speaker 7: that she, yeah, she went, she got educated, and she
Speaker 7: came back to her reservation to help and to like
Speaker 7: sort of bring education to the school children and things
Speaker 7: of that nature. And so it's like even her her character,
Speaker 7: her importance, like her intelligence, was like like I don't
Speaker 7: want to hear it. You don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 7: And I think that that also, like those like narratives
Speaker 7: and there really do kind of show that experience where
Speaker 7: I don't have an issue with it because it does
Speaker 7: really show that contrast.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 3: Let me hit you with another trope, the noble Savage.
Speaker 3: Is he present in this film?
Speaker 5: I would say, what was his name in the wheelchair?
Speaker 3: Is that Leo not Leo fast Out?
Speaker 7: That was?
Speaker 3: Oh he was?
Speaker 5: His character was working with them. Richard Yellowhawk, Yes, yes,
Speaker 5: Richard Yellowhawk.
Speaker 7: He sort of played that role of being. He was
Speaker 7: obviously corrupted be utilized as that central figure, and that's
Speaker 7: what sort of made me kind of go like turning
Speaker 7: on your own people, thinking that you're like probably taking
Speaker 7: money for it, because that's what I'm assuming. A lot
Speaker 7: of bribery and all those things sort of happened.
Speaker 4: And he was only doing it because he wanted They
Speaker 4: were threatening to put him.
Speaker 3: Back in jail.
Speaker 4: I mean that, I not to say there's any sympathy
Speaker 4: for this guy because he we know that he committed
Speaker 4: at least one murder in the service of the government,
Speaker 4: but they were putting the screws to him at every juncture.
Speaker 4: They basically told him and under knowing certain terms, you
Speaker 4: do this or we're going to send you back to
Speaker 4: folsom prison or wherever he was. So he didn't benefit
Speaker 4: in any way that I could tell other than the
Speaker 4: fact that he was trying to stay out of prison.
Speaker 5: Well, it's just like that manipulation tactic.
Speaker 7: I was like, because mostly like what I when I
Speaker 7: think what has happened from what my experience is what
Speaker 7: story has been told to me, is that a lot
Speaker 7: of the governmental figures, the colonizer figures, will come in
Speaker 7: find either a weakness something black Maley to kind of
Speaker 7: hold against you, and it sort of like challenges your
Speaker 7: inner moral You know that this is wrong, but I
Speaker 7: have to think of me right now. And so that's
Speaker 7: kind of where that that that's that I guess I
Speaker 7: hate to say it, but savagery in a way, like
Speaker 7: taking that out on your own people. It has happened
Speaker 7: throughout history, like it's it's happened at the Battle of
Speaker 7: Mormon Mountain where oh yea, even my own people were like, oh,
Speaker 7: will help you with food, We'll, we'll, we'll try to
Speaker 7: save you and help you in exchange of and that
Speaker 7: sort of manipulation and like exploitation really comes into play.
Speaker 7: And that's what like sort of where I get that
Speaker 7: trope from. Is that like having our own savage against
Speaker 7: our own people.
Speaker 3: I hadn't heard it put that way. That's very interesting. Now,
Speaker 3: the final shope I want to get into this movie
Speaker 3: is fucking rife with it. It's got white people as Indians,
Speaker 3: It's got a lot of white people who's Indians. Val Kilmer.
Speaker 3: Val Kilmer swore up and down he had some kind
Speaker 3: of strain of blood. I guess, so maybe fred Ward,
Speaker 3: fred Ward has no Indian blood. He is not a
Speaker 3: Native American in any way, shape or for him. Okay,
Speaker 3: now clearly you said it. They set it up so
Speaker 3: it's mixed blood. So we can kind of get away
Speaker 3: with Val Kilmer. And he's good looking, he's got cheekbones.
Speaker 3: We can forgive him. Valcomer should be just automatically accepted
Speaker 3: by any race. That's kind of my theory on that
Speaker 3: that transcends this film and all films. But what are
Speaker 3: your thoughts on this film? Is this is as gregious
Speaker 3: as others or does it really pull you out of
Speaker 3: the movie in any way that they're doing that.
Speaker 7: Well, let me think, I think when it comes to
Speaker 7: let me think, I think, well, I think like with
Speaker 7: this film in general, like I know that it heavily
Speaker 7: leads into the crime genre, a dressing those themes of
Speaker 7: identity and systematic heritage, and so I do that it
Speaker 7: shares that like uncovering corruption, historical trauma, and comparatively at
Speaker 7: the time, I will say at the time, because in
Speaker 7: Hollywood during that time, there was that those stereotypes. There
Speaker 7: wasn't a lot of like Native American representation, There wasn't
Speaker 7: a lot of Native American stories and they weren't really
Speaker 7: socially conscious with what they're doing, and so I know that,
Speaker 7: like with this film in general, I do appreciate that
Speaker 7: they did do their homework. You know, there was some
Speaker 7: stuff in there that I could say, okay, that was
Speaker 7: really I liked that they did put some Native American
Speaker 7: actors in there. I do the use and the dialogue
Speaker 7: of the indigenous language of the Lakota, I do there
Speaker 7: were some there there. I mean, other than like the
Speaker 7: deep mysticism, but like the importance. I think even though
Speaker 7: that I mentioned that the rolex with the peace pipe
Speaker 7: like exchange being cheapened because of the rolex, But in
Speaker 7: I know that in Lakota culture that receiving a peace
Speaker 7: pipe or well a pipe, they usually call them pipe carries.
Speaker 7: They don't really call peace pipes, but they're called pipe carriers.
Speaker 5: And so they hold that.
Speaker 7: I guess you could say that honor as something like
Speaker 7: very serious, very like honorable, and it means something showing
Speaker 7: that like you have met your place within the community
Speaker 7: and you are respected for what you've done for your community,
Speaker 7: because being a pipe carrier carries that medicine. So I
Speaker 7: do like that there is those certain things that are
Speaker 7: in there, and then of course like this like this
Speaker 7: dramatization of what happened that wounded me. Like I remember
Speaker 7: specifically the scene where he's in there with Sam and
Speaker 7: Sam begins to speak English to him and tells him
Speaker 7: about like his experience what happened at wounded me, and
Speaker 7: that's kind of where like the gears start clicking with him.
Speaker 7: So I do like really appreciate those aspects of it
Speaker 7: because that's like I, like you said, they took out
Speaker 7: all the mysticism, it would be perfect. And so I
Speaker 7: look at nowadays when now that there's more content out
Speaker 7: there for Native American representation being written by natives, like
Speaker 7: for natives, and I do see that trajectory starting to change.
Speaker 7: And so like in its time and its infancy, it
Speaker 7: really did set the precedents in a way because like
Speaker 7: in other films, like you don't really see that other
Speaker 7: than like, for example.
Speaker 5: Dances with Wolves. Oh like shit like that.
Speaker 3: Excuse me, sorry, but no, go to the fucking town
Speaker 3: because that is a piece of garbage, that motherfucking movie
Speaker 3: Graham Green or not.
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 7: So it's like that's that stuff is ough, Like it
Speaker 7: really gives me, like the irks, and then I really
Speaker 7: look at something like this where I can see that
Speaker 7: they they had good intentions. They really tried to incorporate
Speaker 7: like the tradition and the culture kind of in a
Speaker 7: like in a well way, well meaningful way. I don't
Speaker 7: see any disrespect for that too much. But again it's
Speaker 7: like at an early age because like now there has
Speaker 7: been that shift of like progressive Native stories and platforms.
Speaker 7: So I do appreciate seeing that shift, and I like
Speaker 7: that because I mean with all the new things that
Speaker 7: are coming out, like specifically like Dark Winds, like that's
Speaker 7: a big new show that's coming out, and that is
Speaker 7: I would have never imagined anything such that, or Reservation
Speaker 7: Dogs things like that really, because really the only pinnacle
Speaker 7: story that we all like revert to is like Smoke Signals.
Speaker 7: That was a huge film for like natives like all
Speaker 7: the time. That's just one of the big ones. And
Speaker 7: a lot of Natives did like movies, like I know
Speaker 7: that there are a lot of My family is a
Speaker 7: bit of a film buff Like we used to back
Speaker 7: in the day.
Speaker 5: We had one family that had a house.
Speaker 7: We had a house that had cable, so we would
Speaker 7: record movies on VHS's and have because we didn't have
Speaker 7: access to Bockbuster or things like that.
Speaker 5: And so we would have like troves of like.
Speaker 7: Movies on recorded VHS tapes, and then we are like,
Speaker 7: we would do a lot of our jokes, a lot
Speaker 7: of the mockings, a lot of references. That's sort of
Speaker 7: like like what's important to us. And then so when
Speaker 7: we see films that actually depict Native Americans, it is
Speaker 7: exciting because it's, oh, look at us, like we're on
Speaker 7: TV or or we're in this movie, or we value
Speaker 7: those things in the movies. So that's where I kind
Speaker 7: of see it's it's not too offensive, but it's I
Speaker 7: guess I don't. It doesn't anger me that much because
Speaker 7: of it. It is an important story because a lot
Speaker 7: of people don't even know what happened at Wounded Mee.
Speaker 7: They don't know anything about AIM, they don't know anything
Speaker 7: about what happened in the struggles of Native Americans, and
Speaker 7: so it's sort of like, hey, there's at least something
Speaker 7: and so at that I can appreciate at least something.
Speaker 3: Now, one actor we haven't mentioned yet, and this de
Speaker 3: heis directly into what you were just saying. Mister John
Speaker 3: Trudell as Jimmy Looks twice. Now he is the primary
Speaker 3: suspect in the film for killing Leo Fastel. Can you
Speaker 3: tell us a little bit about John Trudell and what
Speaker 3: a motherfucking badass he is? Ashley, I, well, I think.
Speaker 7: That, well, well, for me, I think that he really
Speaker 7: he really sort of like played that role so hard
Speaker 7: and it is inspiring because it gets me when I
Speaker 7: when I remember watching the film, it got me all
Speaker 7: excited and so seeing that native representation and then having
Speaker 7: that resistance, that rebelliousness that I'm going to just just
Speaker 7: tell shit like it is and this is what I'm
Speaker 7: biting for. It really does give you that I don't know.
Speaker 7: For me, it gave me sort of like it got
Speaker 7: me excited, and it got because like I'm very I
Speaker 7: have my ties in activism too, and so it just
Speaker 7: like seeing that and watching his performance and that I'm
Speaker 7: just like, fuck, yeah, that's what we need, Like we
Speaker 7: need somebody that's about to take on this. Still I'm saying,
Speaker 7: fuck these colonizers, I'm gonna run this. And because there's
Speaker 7: a lot of times not people don't know the kind
Speaker 7: of activism and the kind of things that we do
Speaker 7: even today in society, and it's really tough because, like
Speaker 7: you don't really see.
Speaker 5: It that often. So that's why I really appreciate his
Speaker 5: performance in it.
Speaker 3: I was just about to ask you, are there fucking
Speaker 3: moments for you in this film?
Speaker 7: Yes, I mean I would say, well, especially if you
Speaker 7: know at the ending, I'll start with that one.
Speaker 3: I that's a fuck yeah moment for everybody. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: specifically for you seeing natives fucking stand up and surround
Speaker 3: these fucking white idiots who have been trying to fucking
Speaker 3: take their land and turn it into a uranium mine.
Speaker 7: I know, I know, because the way I see it
Speaker 7: is that that uranium mining, land export exploitation.
Speaker 5: I mean, that is a huge thing.
Speaker 7: That happens with a lot of Native American tribes. So
Speaker 7: even though that in the movie, it's like kind of
Speaker 7: loosely based on that, seeing that and fight because a
Speaker 7: lot of my activism is tied into that of protecting
Speaker 7: the land, protecting the like wildlife and things of that nature.
Speaker 7: And being able to see in that film when they're
Speaker 7: all standing around and protecting the land, is I the
Speaker 7: real concern from any rent reservations facing environmental and economic
Speaker 7: challenges and they're just saying, fuck you, this is our land.
Speaker 3: I was just like, yes, yes, yeah, let's let's let's
Speaker 3: corner everyone into one little parcel of land and then
Speaker 3: fucking try and strip mine it and pull it out
Speaker 3: from under them. Wonderful, glad, God bless America.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I know a lot of times we always joke that
Speaker 7: a lot of the like, well, when all that stuff
Speaker 7: went down, I'll say, I'll just call it stuff because
Speaker 7: it's a but an unpleasantness, Yeah, the unpleasantness of our
Speaker 7: history where it's all fucked up.
Speaker 5: They didn't realize that the lands that they put us
Speaker 5: on does have a.
Speaker 7: Lot of like important resources and a lot of now
Speaker 7: natural resources, minerals and things that they want to shrip
Speaker 7: and exploit, and they don't understand that the environmental harm
Speaker 7: and that causes not just to the environment, but also
Speaker 7: to the people that live on it. It's a very
Speaker 7: important thing. Like when she was you know, like collecting
Speaker 7: the water and they were realizing it, oh, all of
Speaker 7: us are getting sick and then seeing the bigger picture
Speaker 7: when they finally go to the testing site and they
Speaker 7: find and they see that I don't think that people
Speaker 7: realize that Hey, like that happens quite often, and a
Speaker 7: lot of reservations have faced a lot of fights with
Speaker 7: the federal government on land and their resources, and it's
Speaker 7: something that I think that a lot of tribes do
Speaker 7: flex their sovereignty. I know my tribe has, and we
Speaker 7: fought for a lot. We're still fighting and and it's
Speaker 7: tough because we are resilient people. We know how to
Speaker 7: utilize our resources, we know how to sort of take
Speaker 7: care of our our community and then survive because like
Speaker 7: we're all survivors in the sense of the genocide. And
Speaker 7: so I like that in the movie that it does
Speaker 7: show those elements, not just the Leonard Helter case parallels,
Speaker 7: and not just the government surveillance and corruption and the
Speaker 7: wounded knee, but really looking at what other tribes actually
Speaker 7: do face when it comes to that land exploitation. Because
Speaker 7: everybody's always saying, oh, they're always trying to fight for
Speaker 7: their land. They're always saying land back, What.
Speaker 5: Do they even mean by that?
Speaker 7: And it's just well, if you ever actually look into it,
Speaker 7: like there's a reason why we're trying to fight and
Speaker 7: preserve the land, because there's going to be a point
Speaker 7: in time when that balance that you know it's gonna
Speaker 7: get fucked up, and then then water systems get polluted
Speaker 7: like animal like life starts going away, the ecosystem starts
Speaker 7: fucking itself, and you're just gonna be like, oh well,
Speaker 7: I kind of wanted all this stuff for whatever exploitation,
Speaker 7: whatever they.
Speaker 5: Come in and do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes you wonder about the nation constantly screaming
Speaker 3: about protecting children poisoning their fucking children.
Speaker 4: HP.
Speaker 3: Let's speak dramatically about this film for a second. If
Speaker 3: you don't mind.
Speaker 4: Absolutely what he got.
Speaker 3: Did the mystery fool you? Were you in any were
Speaker 3: you at any time fooled by Sam Shepherd, the true
Speaker 3: villain of this FILMOCHD.
Speaker 4: Initially, early on, I was taken in because Sam Shepherd
Speaker 4: is such a natural underrated actor. I love Sam Shepherd.
Speaker 4: He he my favorite part that he's played, the favorite
Speaker 4: role that I've seen him in is when he was
Speaker 4: Chuck Yeger in the Right Stuff, And maybe just by
Speaker 4: virtue of that performance, I'm conditioned a bit to want
Speaker 4: to believe Sam Shepherd because he's so heroic in that movie.
Speaker 4: But initially, I mean, obviously, if there were no mystery,
Speaker 4: deep mystery, there would there would be no movie. It
Speaker 4: would just be a pure procedural of them taking down
Speaker 4: their prime suspect. So at some point, obviously there has
Speaker 4: to be some doubtcast on the government's accusations. But initially, sure,
Speaker 4: I wanted to believe that they had the reservation's best
Speaker 4: interests at heart and they wanted to preserve the peace.
Speaker 4: But obviously, as in reality, things are seldom as they seem.
Speaker 4: In this case, obviously it's nowhere near what you think
Speaker 4: it is, and things get pretty awful. So obviously by
Speaker 4: the end you hate Sam Shepherd's character and everything he
Speaker 4: represents because the depth of the corruption is really exposed.
Speaker 4: But anyway, that short story long. Initially I think I
Speaker 4: did maybe because I wanted to believe it, because I think,
Speaker 4: especially when you're younger, you really can't conceive of the
Speaker 4: scope of the government's capacity for flicity and corruption, and
Speaker 4: in this case, definitely maybe there was an element of that,
Speaker 4: like I wanted to believe that they were there to
Speaker 4: with their best interests. But I'm having said that, knowing
Speaker 4: what little I know maybe about the incident at Oglala
Speaker 4: and all of that, I knew eventually that the other
Speaker 4: Penny was the the other shoe was going to drop.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was actually fooled because they pulled a robodobe
Speaker 3: on me by sticking Fred Warn and the fucking goon
Speaker 3: Squad in there as the obvious villains of the piece, Ashley,
Speaker 3: Can you speak about that a little bit, the fucking
Speaker 3: goon Squad. It's like a homegrown militia where basically the
Speaker 3: government we're paying natives to fuck up other natives.
Speaker 5: Oh yes, I mean I would say that.
Speaker 3: Or was it the government or was there some tribal
Speaker 3: council sort of shit involved there too, like lording over
Speaker 3: your own folk.
Speaker 7: Yes, there can be some corruption when it comes to
Speaker 7: being in those seats of power at times, especially when
Speaker 7: you got the federal government coming in your buzzing in
Speaker 7: your ear because AIM, well, I know that's like ARM,
Speaker 7: but like I refer it to AIM in reality, because
Speaker 7: like they occupied wounded me to protest the corruption and
Speaker 7: the treaty violations, and then the FBI's response during that
Speaker 7: time included heavy surveillance, armed confrontation, and leading accusations of
Speaker 7: government like overreach. So it's like these people that were
Speaker 7: represented as AIM were trying to fight against that government
Speaker 7: narrative and the basically the over surveillance, and it's like
Speaker 7: kind of like being in what is it called, like
Speaker 7: the police state when they come in martial law type sense.
Speaker 3: Oh like America right now? Yeah, yeah, okay, we're all
Speaker 3: natives now, and so you get that.
Speaker 7: Like feeling of okay, we have to have this resistance
Speaker 7: against the big bad And when I saw it, like
Speaker 7: I already knew right away he was villainous because I
Speaker 7: was always taught never to trust outsiders. They don't come
Speaker 7: in here with good intentions. They're here to matipulate you.
Speaker 5: And because even though that.
Speaker 7: I am like half like white, because like my dad
Speaker 7: is white, my mom is full blooded Piute, I do
Speaker 7: have that duality. But I was primarily raised on the
Speaker 7: reservation around my family, and that was something that like
Speaker 7: my grandfather would say, learn the white man's like rules
Speaker 7: and play the white man's game. Be careful because like
Speaker 7: they have other intentions and they always have to always
Speaker 7: stay one step ahead of them. And so when I
Speaker 7: saw that those like those, I guess you can say
Speaker 7: like looking at the government or governmental narrative and the
Speaker 7: native accounts, and there is like.
Speaker 5: A way where they do come in and they manipulate
Speaker 5: and they exploit.
Speaker 7: There's a lot of bribery going on. There's a lot
Speaker 7: of like undertable like dealing. Well, I scratch your back,
Speaker 7: you scratch my back, and so that does happen unfortunately,
Speaker 7: because that's why the activists would be showing as, oh,
Speaker 7: you're the you're the problem. We got to come after
Speaker 7: these guys. These guys are causing problems. But really it's well,
Speaker 7: when you have the big bad like they're gonna push
Speaker 7: that narrative in manipulation and then you got there, there's
Speaker 7: these people that are there that are kind of like,
Speaker 7: I gotta stay out of this, I gotta be careful,
Speaker 7: and then you don't know who to trust and it
Speaker 7: does break It does break community in that way because
Speaker 7: there is corruption and exploitation that goes on, and that
Speaker 7: and that reality.
Speaker 3: Fucking goons aptly named if if Okay, HP, let's you
Speaker 3: know what, everyone, Let's talk about Graham Green for a minute,
Speaker 3: shall we, Because Graham Green's fucking awesome. Ashley, you mentioned
Speaker 3: he's a he's a hero in the Native community. Could
Speaker 3: you speak more about that? Is that like, what is
Speaker 3: that level of fame like for him there?
Speaker 7: Well, when we see one of our own kind of
Speaker 7: like out there being a celebrity being in these movies
Speaker 7: and then being highly respected. It's it's exciting. It's kind
Speaker 7: of like kind of the same thing as Adam Beach.
Speaker 7: Like a lot and especially a lot of these especially
Speaker 7: with these younger like Native actors that are coming out
Speaker 7: with these new shows and seeing them, it's just the
Speaker 7: community gets really excited because it's Okay, now we have
Speaker 7: a representation. Now we have like natives portraying natives, actual natives.
Speaker 7: Like it's not something as much as I love Val Kilmer,
Speaker 7: it's just it's it's amazing to see our own like
Speaker 7: telling our stories, acting or acting out these these stories,
Speaker 7: and it's it's exciting. And like I will share that
Speaker 7: I remember when I was down on the Strip, hated
Speaker 7: to be there, but I had to go there for
Speaker 7: some reason.
Speaker 3: And it was urricatives of Las Vegas.
Speaker 7: Yeah, res the res Conference was going on, which is
Speaker 7: like a Native America economic conference, and so like natives
Speaker 7: from all over the country will come and and I
Speaker 7: remember driving down because I had to go to one
Speaker 7: of THEIRS, one of their events, and I saw like
Speaker 7: reservation dogs up on a huge billboard and like me
Speaker 7: being from the reservation didn't really have much representation seeing
Speaker 7: stuff like that, which is very not like for everybody
Speaker 7: else it's oh, it's not that Commons whatever, it's a billboard,
Speaker 7: it's but for us, it's wow, look at us there.
Speaker 7: And I think that's and plus it's really exciting because
Speaker 7: then it really kind of ties in youth having somebody
Speaker 7: to look up to to be excited and inspired by.
Speaker 5: And so it's just anybody.
Speaker 7: I'm not saying, oh, Graham Green's somebody's hero, but I
Speaker 7: mean it's it's just hey, like, we have a place now,
Speaker 7: we have a platform, now, we have stories and voices now,
Speaker 7: and I think that that gets the community excited.
Speaker 5: And I mean it does for me and my family.
Speaker 3: HP. What's your favorite Graham Green row ooh.
Speaker 4: This is this is definitely up there for me. My
Speaker 4: first exposure, my first the first time I ever saw
Speaker 4: him was obviously Dances with Wolves. I think that's the
Speaker 4: first time a lot of people, a lot of a
Speaker 4: lot of white people, let's say, got exposed to the
Speaker 4: greatness of Graham Green. He's he's absolutely fantastic in this.
Speaker 4: But I have to say everything I've seen him in
Speaker 4: he is awesome. Did you see a Family Tree? The
Speaker 4: Christopher Guest series, Ashley, Have you seen Family Tree? I'm
Speaker 4: not surprised if you didn't. It was kind of not
Speaker 4: very well promoted or heralded, but just to refresh people's
Speaker 4: memories of it, the main character, Tom Chadwick, inherits this
Speaker 4: trunk that gives all these clues to his ancestors, and
Speaker 4: he gets very interested in his family tree, and he
Speaker 4: goes on all these sort of adventures investigating sometimes dead
Speaker 4: ends of where he thinks he might have come from it.
Speaker 4: At one point he believes that there's evidence that maybe
Speaker 4: he has Native American ancestry. So he goes to a
Speaker 4: reservation and barstow and he meets up with Graham Green's character,
Speaker 4: who's the chief on the reservation, Chief Running Bull, and
Speaker 4: is Graham Green His character couldn't be more blase about
Speaker 4: because Tom Chadwick is looking for all the sort of
Speaker 4: tropes of mysticism and all of this, and it's really
Speaker 4: Chief Running Bulls tasked to sort of set this guy
Speaker 4: straight and say, no, that's not the way things are
Speaker 4: in this reservation at all. It's actually a very simple existence.
Speaker 4: You're kind of making this out so he's very deadpaned
Speaker 4: through the whole episode, and he's really, really, really good.
Speaker 4: But I have to say, and not to say, I've
Speaker 4: seen everything that Graham Green has been in, but of
Speaker 4: the things I've seen him in, this, Thunderheart would definitely
Speaker 4: be close to the top, if not the top, because
Speaker 4: he's such a badass in this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what, I really like him in die
Speaker 3: Hard with a Vengeance.
Speaker 4: Yes, I forgot he was in that.
Speaker 3: That's right, right, He's just one of the fucking cops.
Speaker 3: He's so good. It's just one of the cops.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's there's nothing, but they don't call attention.
Speaker 4: He's just another cop. But he's really good in it.
Speaker 3: As for me, this is it. Walser Crow horse Man,
Speaker 3: come on, he can can we do get an animated series?
Speaker 3: He can voice him. We can get young Walter Cross.
Speaker 3: Let's get old Walter crowhorse stories him teamed up with
Speaker 3: a younger Buck out there fucking SolV and shit, come
Speaker 3: on now, how about a crossover with Dark Winds. Get
Speaker 3: him on there. Everything's a multiverse these days. He's such
Speaker 3: a good cop in this.
Speaker 4: He's the kind of cop that you would want on
Speaker 4: your case if your life depended on it, because he's
Speaker 4: turning over so many stones, he's putting in the efforts.
Speaker 4: He's intuitive as all hell. He's really really good, Father Malone.
Speaker 4: You and I have talked about this a little bit offline,
Speaker 4: but I think we were robbed of sequel where Ray
Speaker 4: maybe goes back to the reservation and he becomes Walter
Speaker 4: Crowhorse's sidekick and they investigate other crimes and they sort
Speaker 4: of have their own little adventures because there's by the
Speaker 4: time they have a grudging respect for each other. I
Speaker 4: just think it's I don't know, it's just so cool
Speaker 4: to see Walter Crowhorse, who is so dubious and so
Speaker 4: skeptical of Ray coming in and trying to go through
Speaker 4: this investigation, but at the end he really they have
Speaker 4: grudging respect for each other. I think that's great. It's
Speaker 4: a great relationship.
Speaker 3: Do you think this movie would warrant a remake? H
Speaker 3: or do you think that maybe it's time we maybe
Speaker 3: get a fictionalized account of the actual events that took
Speaker 3: place in seventy three, maybe a limited mini series on
Speaker 3: Netflix or something.
Speaker 4: I think it's certainly an idea whose time has come.
Speaker 4: I think to Ashley's point, there, there's been so many,
Speaker 4: so much more representation of Native American culture and pop
Speaker 4: culture and media. I think there's probably never been a
Speaker 4: better time to have something authentic produce. So I would
Speaker 4: co sign that for them alone.
Speaker 7: Ashlely, I think so too, because I mean, there it's
Speaker 7: such an important part of our history and it's not
Speaker 7: really talked about, it's not really known, and I think
Speaker 7: that it's important to see that these occupations do happen.
Speaker 7: I mean even with like the occupation of Alcatraz with
Speaker 7: aim that was another big thing, that would be the
Speaker 7: Trail of Broken Treaties of course wound to me, and
Speaker 7: then the Longest Walk and of course like no Dapple
Speaker 7: m M I w all of these like huge movements
Speaker 7: that happen within like the Native American community. I mean,
Speaker 7: I'm not just saying, oh, we just need to tell
Speaker 7: stories about them, and but it's just no, we we
Speaker 7: people people. The way that they like get access is
Speaker 7: through film through TV shows. So to me, I see
Speaker 7: it as sort of like an education tool and sense
Speaker 7: that it can actually catch a broader audience of these
Speaker 7: key events and and actually bring in some real like
Speaker 7: perspectives and I and and to me, that's important because then,
Speaker 7: because I mean all the time, I I even to
Speaker 7: this day, I still face a lot of like awkward
Speaker 7: conversations and discrimination and microaggressions, and it's it's kind of
Speaker 7: embarrassing in a way, like I don't feel embarrassed for
Speaker 7: I feel embarrassed for the people that they're really that
Speaker 7: unself aware and really out of.
Speaker 5: Touch and twenty five oh yeah, and I walk up DC,
Speaker 5: so it's bad.
Speaker 4: Well, I think one thing I think people need to
Speaker 4: realize Obviously, growing up my experience, I don't know if
Speaker 4: it was your experience for them alone, but but we
Speaker 4: were woefully uneducated about the true history of the Native
Speaker 4: Americans in this country. I think people people need to
Speaker 4: underst and is Native American history is American history, and
Speaker 4: you can't really tell the story of America without having
Speaker 4: a tremendous focus on Native American history and concerns. So
Speaker 4: I think just on that basis alone, whether it's a
Speaker 4: remake or some sort of updated retelling of these events,
Speaker 4: I think it's tremendously important just because wouldn't I would
Speaker 4: hate to think kids, young kids in school now aren't
Speaker 4: getting a better level of education and sensitivity to these
Speaker 4: matters than I did as a kid. I think that's
Speaker 4: a real travesty if that's not the case.
Speaker 3: I appreciate knowing that Galileo was excommunicated and when the
Speaker 3: Magna Carta was signed, but I think it's a little
Speaker 3: bit more important to know what's going on in my
Speaker 3: motherfucking country right now, even in seventy three. Look, I
Speaker 3: was going to high school in the late eighties. It
Speaker 3: was fifteen sixteen years ago the events that this movie
Speaker 3: is depicting, and I didn't know a fucking thing about it.
Speaker 3: That's crazy to me. I will tell you this. It's Ashley.
Speaker 4: You had mentioned the occupation of Alcatraz. I didn't know
Speaker 4: about that, and actually father Malone knows this. I went
Speaker 4: for our apul vacation. We took the family to California
Speaker 4: and we went to San Francisco and we took a
Speaker 4: tour of Alcatraz and as we're taking the boat in,
Speaker 4: we get off the boat and there's a giant painted
Speaker 4: There's a water tower I think it was painted, and
Speaker 4: it says Indians Welcome. And I said, what is that?
Speaker 4: I had no idea what that was until the rangers
Speaker 4: explained about the occupation. Of Alcatraz and I I'm sitting
Speaker 4: here thinking, I've never ever heard of that, and this
Speaker 4: is a big deal. This is an occupation that took
Speaker 4: place over the course of what almost two years, that
Speaker 4: they occupied Alcatraz and actually lived there and formed a community.
Speaker 4: That's incredible to me that this was the first time
Speaker 4: I was hearing about it since it was think it
Speaker 4: ended in like the early seventies, right, so we're talking
Speaker 4: like fifty years and this is the first time I'd
Speaker 4: ever heard about it.
Speaker 3: That blew my mind, you know, it blew my mind.
Speaker 3: Operating Radio Free Alcatraz at John Trudell really, Yeah, he
Speaker 3: ran the radio station during the occupation of Alcatraz and
Speaker 3: he's in this movie.
Speaker 4: I'm not surprised. The man was a tremendous He was
Speaker 4: a force of nature.
Speaker 8: He'll fucking sick a badger on you. Okay, that was
Speaker 8: that jump scare worked in this movie. That's the last
Speaker 8: thing I expected to happen to. That to Cooch when
Speaker 8: he put his hand in there.
Speaker 3: I've seen this movie a dozen times. Every time it happens,
Speaker 3: it still scares me. Yeah, a bad who who? That
Speaker 3: a freaking man?
Speaker 4: But you had a figure he probably had to go
Speaker 4: and get like a rabies shot. I mean, who knows
Speaker 4: what was involved. Scary badger. Yeah, and he's so he's
Speaker 4: getting in for the rest of the movie. He's got
Speaker 4: that ugly looking bandage on his hand to remind you
Speaker 4: that he was bitten by a badger.
Speaker 3: Ah, well, it's only what he's doing. He fucking kills
Speaker 3: everybody else for God's sake. We don't even get to
Speaker 3: see what happens to him. Damn it. I'm a bloodthirsty American.
Speaker 3: I think we should have seen these guys just gutten
Speaker 3: down at the end. What do you think of that?
Speaker 3: Who's with me? Any final thoughts, anything we haven't talked
Speaker 3: about that you liked, didn't enjoy, didn't enjoy about these movies?
Speaker 4: Start with you, hb Well, one thing I wanted to
Speaker 4: kind of circle back to a point that you were
Speaker 4: making a little bit earlier, Father Malone, and I'm curious
Speaker 4: to get both of you must It was the idea
Speaker 4: of these these sort of white actors playing these roles
Speaker 4: like fred Ward is obviously the biggest example of that.
Speaker 3: But but I guess my.
Speaker 4: Question is that my thought behind that was I think
Speaker 4: it's almost a subconscious way of casting suspicion on him
Speaker 4: because he doesn't present as outwardly as a Native American.
Speaker 4: It doesn't look like what you would expect the Native
Speaker 4: American to look like. So do you think that's at
Speaker 4: least a subconscious of not a conscious way of having
Speaker 4: the viewer focus on him as something not right about
Speaker 4: this character?
Speaker 3: So they kind of othering the character by casting freid
Speaker 3: Ward And the part you're saying, I can buy that.
Speaker 3: Michael apt Is. I think Minchalel Aapton is a fucking
Speaker 3: fantastic filmmaker, and I think all of his intentions were good,
Speaker 3: even if sometimes it didn't pay off. Yeah, but Ashley,
Speaker 3: what do you think?
Speaker 7: Well, like I said, it was like during like when
Speaker 7: it comes to the eighties and nineties, like that's when
Speaker 7: that shift is where. Okay, I see your intention you're trying,
Speaker 7: because before that there was it's either the cowboys and
Speaker 7: Indians and those like really horribly depicted stereotypes. And then
Speaker 7: I know that there was mysticism in this but back
Speaker 7: like comparatively to like dances of wolves.
Speaker 5: Okay, So what what the fuck?
Speaker 3: I ask is that the common sentiment in the Native
Speaker 3: community about Okay, good.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, we mak them a huge mockery of It's
Speaker 7: not something that we've value a lot of times. We
Speaker 7: like to joke around and talk shit. And so when
Speaker 7: I always meet people and they tell that that are
Speaker 7: non Native, they're like my favorite movies dances with wolves,
Speaker 7: and I'm just like, oh god, it's like almost as
Speaker 7: bad as like my great great grandma was the great
Speaker 7: Cherokee princess.
Speaker 5: It's it's that that.
Speaker 10: Cringe, that cringe, and it's just so anytime we always
Speaker 10: laugh about that, we're like, oh and it and I
Speaker 10: know that in this it did, like I said, they.
Speaker 7: Did do their homework and they did have good intentions.
Speaker 7: So I don't have too much of ooh, it doesn't
Speaker 7: bother me too much in a sense, Yeah, miss isn't a.
Speaker 5: Little too much.
Speaker 7: But because I believe that when you find when you
Speaker 7: get reconnected to your culture and your cultural identity, it's
Speaker 7: not necessarily based upon all of these visions. Majority of
Speaker 7: it is like getting to know your people, having those
Speaker 7: like oral history and conversations that sort of give you
Speaker 7: that perspective. Because when the scene of him sitting in
Speaker 7: the car talking to Sam and when he talks about
Speaker 7: like wounded me, where that start when you see that
Speaker 7: shift click, like with me and my personal experiences learning
Speaker 7: about those instances. My grandparents went to the Indian boarding schools,
Speaker 7: for example, and when I was in school, I was
Speaker 7: taught that the boarding schools were great and that they
Speaker 7: helped our people. And then when I came home from
Speaker 7: school and was like blabbing on about it, I had
Speaker 7: to have a really hard conversation and that's when I
Speaker 7: learned that real history. And I think that it helped
Speaker 7: me gain a sense of my identity by unfortunately learning
Speaker 7: those like harsh realities. But I think that when it's
Speaker 7: being proposed in this film, it's actually like that scene
Speaker 7: is so important. That's where you find the identity. That's
Speaker 7: where you have that shift of consciousness, not the visions.
Speaker 7: That conversation alone, That's what I believe that should have
Speaker 7: been the focus.
Speaker 4: So, father Bill, did you what did you think about
Speaker 4: fred Ward? The reason I say obviously that it was
Speaker 4: I think it was a deliberate casting choice because it's
Speaker 4: not as if in this movie that there's not a
Speaker 4: lot of actual Native Americans in all of these starring
Speaker 4: and supporting roles. So I feel like it was a
Speaker 4: deliberate choice by Michael lapted to what you said, other
Speaker 4: the character and make him seem not quite to stand
Speaker 4: out a little bit in the midst of these militias.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's definitely possible. And I think Fred
Speaker 3: Ward's a fucking fantastic actor. And yeah, and I do
Speaker 3: think as soon as he shows up in a truck
Speaker 3: full of actual natives like toting rifles and he's the
Speaker 3: boss that I'm automatically suspect of him. So almost a
Speaker 3: little too much. It seems that actually casting a native
Speaker 3: in that bart would have would have kept the mystery
Speaker 3: going a little bit better. In a way, it might
Speaker 3: have been a misstep altogether. I will say this. I
Speaker 3: once met Fred Ward outside my movie theater in Santa Monica, California,
Speaker 3: and I was talking to him just about bullshit, and
Speaker 3: his wife came up and she said, who's this And
Speaker 3: I said, oh, I'm nobody because I had to go
Speaker 3: start the projection start the projector, and and he went,
Speaker 3: you're not nobody. This is this is my new friend, Michael.
Speaker 3: He's the projectionist here. He's going to be showing us
Speaker 3: a movie. And then after the movie there was a
Speaker 3: knock on the projection booth door, and it was fred
Speaker 3: Ward who came in to thank me for the delightful presentation.
Speaker 3: Fred Ward was awesome, that's all.
Speaker 4: He's awesome to me. He'll always be Remo Williams. He's
Speaker 4: Gus Grissom's He's a he's a fantastic presence. I I
Speaker 4: love hearing those stories about what a great guy he
Speaker 4: is because it just confirms what a great what a
Speaker 4: great screen presence he is or was, rest.
Speaker 3: In peace, speaking of great things on screen, before we go,
Speaker 3: we cannot not mention Roger deacons fucking fantastic photography here.
Speaker 3: The man can pull shadows out of shadows. It's fucking incredible.
Speaker 3: The opening shot of this movie, as tragic as it is,
Speaker 3: that we're we're seeing Leo Fastel getting gunned down, him
Speaker 3: running against the sun and then just I don't know.
Speaker 3: This is one of the best looking movies of the
Speaker 3: early nineteen nineties, if not the nineties.
Speaker 4: I just think it's gorgeous. The cinematography is awesome. It's
Speaker 4: so rich and in some ways like very very hot,
Speaker 4: not hypersaturated, but very very that the colors are just unbelievable.
Speaker 4: Everything pops. The landscape looks amazing.
Speaker 3: Actually, you're a nerd.
Speaker 7: Well, Like I mentioned before, I really did appreciate it
Speaker 7: because there is a lot of scenes, especially like kind
Speaker 7: of that slow shot over the canyons and like catching
Speaker 7: the landscapes itself, because that, to me is like what
Speaker 7: really brings in like home, like the beauty of it,
Speaker 7: and I think those are probably like my favorite parts
Speaker 7: of that is just seeing those breathtaking scenes. And you're right,
Speaker 7: even though that the shooting scene is pretty graphic. I
Speaker 7: always say it's, oh, it's like trauma porn, but that
Speaker 7: I mean the way that it was shot. I was
Speaker 7: like the colors and watching watching it go down, It's
Speaker 7: just it. Even though it's like a traumatic event. He
Speaker 7: did really have a good eye on how that looks.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's so gorgeous. And now when you
Speaker 3: think about it, technically he's squibbed up. There's no digital blood,
Speaker 3: so as he's flying through the air and getting shot
Speaker 3: and the blood is splat. Oh, it's such a gorgeous
Speaker 3: piece of film. I'm sorry. The subject matter is so
Speaker 3: fucking horrible. What are you gonna do? It's art, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it ain't always clean it's quite frequently messy. Anything
Speaker 3: else anyone wants to mention about Thunderheart before we wrap
Speaker 3: things up? No, oh, I think he covered it all
Speaker 3: right on okay, Ashley, Are you anywhere to coeople contact you,
Speaker 3: whether they want to find you or you anywhere you're
Speaker 3: on Instagram or something. There's there some tribal website I'm
Speaker 3: not plugging correctly that you can get some word out
Speaker 3: and get some support or something.
Speaker 5: I mean, well, I have a lot.
Speaker 7: I'll just well, if you just want to contact me directly,
Speaker 7: I guess on a professional.
Speaker 5: Level, there's like LinkedIn.
Speaker 7: Oh, I have that if you want to talk about more.
Speaker 7: Because I was on tribal council, I am a prominent
Speaker 7: person in my community. I do run these programs and
Speaker 7: I do have a big connection here in Las Vegas
Speaker 7: with the Native community.
Speaker 5: But on a personal level, just hit me up on
Speaker 5: Instagram at little Miss Phones.
Speaker 3: HB. Where can people find you when you're not hanging
Speaker 3: out with me talking about John Fusco movies all fucking
Speaker 3: day like a bunch of lunatics.
Speaker 4: We are a bunch of lunatics. I also co host
Speaker 4: the Night Mister Walters Taxi podcast with of course you
Speaker 4: fatherm alone as if we don't have enough content being
Speaker 4: generated on the post.
Speaker 3: Too much, I'm tired, man.
Speaker 4: No, it's great, it's invigorating, love to do it. It's
Speaker 4: and also I'm I'm an occasional guest on the Culture
Speaker 4: Cast with Chris Dashue. I also host the Noise Junkies
Speaker 4: music podcast and last but not least, I have a
Speaker 4: band campsite hpmusicplace dot bandcamp dot com.
Speaker 3: As for me, if you want to support Midnight to
Speaker 3: view and go to Patreon dot com slash follow them alone.
Speaker 3: You get episodes early and you get subscriber only shows.
Speaker 3: Or if you don't have any money and none of
Speaker 3: us do anymore, then you could just give us a
Speaker 3: five star review or like it, or share it or
Speaker 3: send it to a friend. I don't know, give us
Speaker 3: a hand. But we're gonna go out with a line
Speaker 3: from Thunderheart, Which will it be? Who knows?
Speaker 9: It's a nice truck Rarever'd you steal it?
Speaker 3: But you might want to see this what's going on.
Speaker 1: It's a power.
Speaker 6: That that eagle feather you found gave me a little chub,
Speaker 6: didn't it. Well, we all have feathers from the same eagle.
Speaker 6: We share everything on the rads.
Speaker 3: Those are my sunglasses I traded Grandpa.
Speaker 1: I'll trade with you.
Speaker 3: That's a rock your nuts.
Speaker 6: He's a Ray Bans Jesus, you ain't got nothing on Jimmy,
Speaker 6: do you no cop?
Speaker 2: Fleeing justice, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with intent
Speaker 2: to kill is nothing sedition.
Speaker 3: That scum is an enemy of the United States.
Speaker 6: You know, Ray, we were kids. We used to play
Speaker 6: cowboys and Indians. I was always Gary Cooper. I didn't
Speaker 6: want to be an in the government boarding schools. Make
Speaker 6: sure that cut off my hair. I watched my mouth,
Speaker 6: I was soaping. I spoke my own language, my own language.
Speaker 10: Ray.
Speaker 6: When the armed warriors came here was lack an awakening,
Speaker 6: got the people proud of their heritage, their elders language.
Speaker 6: And you call them enemies. Tough call all the way around. Anyway,
Speaker 6: Now you just keep on doing that. Tomorrow morning, I'll
Speaker 6: have Leo's murderer in the Bear Creek Tribal jail. Screw
Speaker 6: your jurisdiction.
Speaker 1: I'll listen to you with any of its. You're the
Speaker 1: deep ship.
Speaker 9: Don't assume it.
Speaker 1: Stuns. London