WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:26.719 Will you wait, Miss. 2 00:00:23.879 --> 00:01:15.840 Exist Sis, Welcome back Midnight Viewers to Fusco Fest, where 3 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.280 we are taking a look at the filmography of screenwriter 4 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:19.079 John Fusco. 5 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.760 So far, we've covered Crossroads, Young Guns, Young Guns Too, 6 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.879 and then out of order we did the Babe. But 7 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.519 we're now back to setting things right with this week's selection. 8 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.400 A Thunderheart joining me as always is the host of 9 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:33.599 Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast HP. How are you HP? 10 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.239 I'm doing well, father alone? How are you tonight? 11 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:41.840 Oh me? Thank you for asking. I'm well now. Given 12 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.040 the subject matter and how I abhor the idea of 13 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:47.799 another podcast about an indigenous people conducted entirely by suburban 14 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.840 white guys, I've invited a special guest to join us. 15 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.719 She is a member of the Moapa Band of Paiutes 16 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:56.519 in southern Nevada and works for the tribe as a 17 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.680 project director for adult wellness and childcare programs. Please welcome 18 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:04.239 Ashley Marie tom Osborne. Welcome to Midnight of Viewing. 19 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:06.599 Ashley, Oh, thank you for having me on. 20 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.280 It is entirely our pleasure. I hope you can set 21 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:14.759 us straight on some of the misconceptions surrounding this film 22 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.520 and well Native films in general, we'll get to it. 23 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:19.960 I think this might this film might be better than most. 24 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.039 But anyway, the movie we're talking about here today is 25 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:39.560 the fourth in the filmography of John Fusco. This is Thunderheart. 26 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:46.479 There's been a homicide on Indian Land. 27 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:48.879 They sent him to a foreign land. 28 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:49.800 What's my cover? 29 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:52.439 In the middle of America? You're going in? 30 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:52.599 There? 31 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:53.360 Is who you are? 32 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:55.960 American Indian Federal office. 33 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:57.479 To uncover the truth? 34 00:02:58.240 --> 00:02:59.719 Federal offs their hands on your head? 35 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:02.599 What's your name? 36 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:03.319 Sure as hell? 37 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:04.400 Ain't Geronimo chief? 38 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:05.039 Like? 39 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:06.719 Maybe you guys got off the wrong exit. 40 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:06.960 Yuh. 41 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.840 He's looking from Alt Rushmore. Who are you, Walter crow 42 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:13.759 Horse tribal police? 43 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:17.199 You must be the Indian in FDI. 44 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:19.400 That's right? What nation? 45 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:20.680 Right? 46 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:21.960 They're your own people, aren't they? 47 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:23.800 They are not my people? 48 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:26.919 Hey, look the Washington redskin. 49 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:29.840 Whoever killed they? Oh walks heel toe. 50 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:32.680 This guy was a big son of a bucket. That's say, 51 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.280 goes two ten, two fifteen. 52 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:37.120 You're gonna tell me how much change he had in his. 53 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:39.639 Pocket sixty three cents. 54 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:44.159 Now to find the truth, he must face the mystery 55 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:45.439 within himself. 56 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:47.639 Says he knew he were coming here he was told, 57 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:51.520 who told him, Oh, gosh, are their spirits. 58 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:54.479 We can't get suckered into that. We're here to take 59 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:55.719 our man and go home. 60 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:01.879 You can chamship shift into different animals. 61 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.000 You gotta stop him. Listen to the wind will tell 62 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:13.639 me things. Cola, you had yourself a vision, said you're 63 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.439 chasing the wrong man. You said we should follow this. 64 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.519 Oh, pither one of us gets hit ray, it'll be 65 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:20.240 all she wrote. 66 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:22.879 The owl is a messenger. 67 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:24.519 It means somebody's gonna die. 68 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:43.240 Under hard As Come. 69 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:51.439 Released on April the third, nineteen ninety two. It was 70 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:55.000 directed by Michael Aptid, written by John Fusco. Cinematographied Roger 71 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.839 Deakins My God, music by James Horner. Starring Val Kilmer, 72 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.959 Ram Green, Sam Shepard, Shila Tausi, Fred Ward, Ted Thinnelk, 73 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:07.519 and John Trudell. It is about a murder that occurs 74 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:10.120 on a reservation in South Dakota. The FBI sins in 75 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.439 agent Ray Levoy, played by Valcumer, based on his one 76 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:16.639 quarter Siux heritage. His father was half Sue, even though 77 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.480 he's had no contact with either family or his culture 78 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:23.360 since age. Since the age of seven, during his investigation, 79 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.879 he comes up against a corrupt local militia headed by 80 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.759 Fred Ward while investigating Arm the Aboriginal Rights Movement, a 81 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.319 group of Native activists that are the prime suspects for 82 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.279 the murder. The events depicted are loosely based on the 83 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:38.120 Wounded Knee incidem seventy three, with Arms standing in for 84 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.319 Aim the American Indian Movement who sees control of the 85 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:43.680 town of Wounded Knee that ended with three dead and 86 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.480 over a dozen wounded. Now, ordinarily I would kick it 87 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.920 to you, Harrison, to ask you about your the first 88 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:51.800 time you saw this movie. I'm gonna go straight to Ashley. Ashley, 89 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:54.279 when did you first see this movie? What were your thoughts? Then? 90 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.079 What are they now? On rewatch? 91 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.519 When I was probably about in high school, I saw 92 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:01.439 the movie because a lot of my family we love 93 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.079 like watching movies, and we always make the joke like, hey, 94 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:09.040 natives watching natives, So we're always curious about depictions. And 95 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.920 even though yes, I could say I had a really 96 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.199 positive experience, but I know I have my qualms, which 97 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:19.399 I'll share later, But I honestly think that with the 98 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:24.000 mystery and the cultural exploration, I really that aspect of it, 99 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:25.720 especially like a lot. 100 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.120 Of the themes of discrimination was really spot on. In 101 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:29.959 my opinion. 102 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.040 It still kind of makes me a little uncomfortable seeing 103 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.279 some scenes in a way, but it's sort of like 104 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:38.680 in a sense of realities because each of us have 105 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.360 either been in situations that sort of parallel those kind 106 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.600 of lines of discrimination. And then of course, like the 107 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.439 activism and the historical injustice, like that was part of 108 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.720 something that really speaks because that's pretty much even though 109 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:54.839 that it aim is actually what it's based off of, 110 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:57.680 which is called the American Indian Movement. I kind of 111 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:00.399 like how they kind of incorporated that story in there 112 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.040 as well, because in a way it does need to 113 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.560 be heard and seen by larger audiences on such like 114 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.480 a huge impact in tribal communities. And then of course 115 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.519 the cinematography. I'm a big dort for that. I think 116 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.000 that the beautiful landscapes of the reservation is it really 117 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:19.399 brings a lot of sense of home. I know that 118 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.360 it might be a little rough around the edges for 119 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.240 people that have never even seen a reservation, because like 120 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.800 it's supposed to be loosely based off of Pine Ridge. 121 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.600 But even though that we had isolated homes and a 122 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:33.519 lot of struggles with a lot of like social class, 123 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:38.040 especially being in poverty. But I believe that remote reservations 124 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.800 are an expression of our resilience because it really takes 125 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:44.360 tough boots to be living out there. I grew up 126 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.519 on one, so yeah, that's kind of what I think 127 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:47.399 overall in general. 128 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.959 Right on HB, what was your first viewing of the movie? 129 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:52.199 Then? 130 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:53.519 What do you think of it now? 131 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.519 So I'm sure I saw this when it was on 132 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.560 cable back it probably aired ninety three, I would guess, 133 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.199 obviously a big fan of Valcilmer then and now. I 134 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:08.519 probably didn't know what to make. 135 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:09.000 Of it at the time. 136 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.240 I didn't know enough about the true world events that 137 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:15.720 it was based on, like Leonard Peltier and Pine Ridge and. 138 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:16.800 All that stuff. 139 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:20.839 So really, it would say watching it in advance for 140 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.360 this podcast was kind of a new experience for me, 141 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:26.120 seeing it with kind of more opened eyes and more 142 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:32.200 informed So I and it's hard. You can't disconnect it 143 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:35.279 from obviously the passing of Val Kilmer, so that weighed 144 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.159 heavily on my viewing of it. I think it's a 145 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:41.240 fantastic movie. I agree with Ashley. I think this is 146 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.799 an important story that needs to be told. I don't 147 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.200 think there's enough movies that focus on issues in the 148 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:52.080 Native American population. But having said that, I also agree 149 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.519 with Ashley that I had my problems with the movie 150 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:59.399 as progressive and as important as it was, especially at 151 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.039 the time. There's a few things, and actually I'm really 152 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:04.080 curious to get Ashley's take on some of these things 153 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:07.519 that I had problems with. But but yeah, this was 154 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.000 ultimately this was it felt like the first time I 155 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:11.639 saw it this past time I watched it. 156 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.039 Are we all talking about the mysticism? Yes, yes, yeah, 157 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.320 it's the only real flaw in this film. 158 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.480 I agree mostly Like for me, I think it was 159 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.559 like the mixed blood hero trope. Well with Ray the 160 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.039 mixed heritage. He embraces his native identity, which I mean, 161 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:31.879 like in a lot of instances, a lot of people 162 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.080 do have a disconnection with culture and then returning to 163 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.720 that culture. I understand that is like a real journey. 164 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:40.840 But while it allows that compelling personal journey, I would 165 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.360 argue that it reinforces the idea that native wisdom must 166 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:48.360 be discovered through a non traditional outsider. And what I 167 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:52.240 mean is reconnecting with your roots through unexpected circumstances like 168 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:56.120 when crow Horse and Grandpa Sam sort of introduced Ray 169 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:00.799 to Native spirituality. But like my space take is like 170 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:03.879 when the trading of the rolex for a peace pipe 171 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.559 is sort of like a metaphorical acceptance of his identity, 172 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:10.840 and I think it sort of cheapens the experience, so 173 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.240 in a way it leads into like appropriation of Native spirituality. 174 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.480 Like I understand that visuals and spiritual guidance are a 175 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.960 key of race transformation, but I think it like commodifies 176 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:22.720 the culture in a way that it caters to like 177 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.200 more Western audiences, and I believe that reconnecting with your 178 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.799 cultural roots isn't always this grand performance of soul searching 179 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:34.559 like through a vision luss. So I'm like, yeah, I mean, 180 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:36.600 like talking to the wind and like things of that 181 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:38.840 nature is like yeah, we I mean, I know sometimes 182 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:41.840 we like to joke and mock those like stereotypes, but 183 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:44.799 I think in reality that's not what it's really like. 184 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.360 And then my other second like sort of issue was 185 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:54.559 the lone Rangeo and Tonto dynamic. Oh yes, because I 186 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:58.200 love Graham Green, Like I mean, in the Native community, 187 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:02.519 he's like a superstar, So I think that relationship between 188 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.879 Ray and Walter Crowhors has always been compared to that 189 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.240 class of trope in my opinion because like white hero 190 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.879 and Native sidekick, because since he's so what we call colonized, 191 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.720 but since he's not really like familiar with his roots, 192 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:19.240 he does sort of have the more like colonized Western 193 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.480 perspective at birst. So that's why I kind of say 194 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:25.039 white hero, well, pro horse is such a strong character 195 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.720 in my opinion, and he still plays a supportive role 196 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.679 in range journey rather than being like a central figure. 197 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:32.919 That's kind of like those are. 198 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:34.919 Like my two big Let's send some other tropes too, 199 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.279 because I've heard a lot level that at this film. 200 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.559 I've heard a lot level that a lot of Native 201 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:43.720 films poverty porn. Do you think this movie registers anywhere 202 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:45.679 in the poverty porn scale? 203 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.600 I believe so, because there's like a huge dynamic that 204 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:52.559 people don't really realize is that like when you just 205 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.559 focus on that, it's it gives this people this the 206 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:59.200 stereotype that oh that all reservations must be like that, 207 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:03.000 oh look at them, oh poor them, And it really 208 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:07.919 has such like a negative stereotype that I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Like, 209 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:12.919 reservations are very beautiful despite being isolated, I know, like 210 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.519 back at home or just about an hour outside of Vegas, 211 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:21.320 Like there's such beautiful landscapes, beautiful sunrises, beautiful sunsets, a 212 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:25.360 lot of animals, a lot of natural resources around you, 213 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:28.799 even especially when the Muddy River runs through a lot 214 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:32.039 of wildlife that you don't get to experience like obviously 215 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:37.320 in the city. And also the essence of community. I 216 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:39.960 know that that was sort of not really highlighted. It 217 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.759 showed a lot of the conflicts between the natives that 218 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:46.360 are sorting kind of like conspirizing with the FBI and 219 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:48.679 like all of that, and then of course like the 220 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:52.320 a movement aspect, and then the people there. It's like 221 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.440 it's there's not that much separation when it comes to community, 222 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:59.240 because how we survive is within our community and our resilience. 223 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.960 And so it's a lot of showing that, oh, look 224 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:04.960 at them, for them, Oh they must be so sad, 225 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.200 And it just kind of kind of rose me the 226 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:10.039 wrong way because I'm like, no, reservations are beautiful, They're 227 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:14.799 not necessarily always so heavily dark and sad, and that's 228 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.639 what I don't really like how it kind of comes 229 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:19.879 off a little bit in some of the scenes where 230 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.519 like you see the decaying houses and a lot of 231 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:24.960 I guess you could say like kind of separation. I 232 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.200 know that like with me growing up, we did have 233 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:30.240 running water, electricity. I know some reservations probably during in 234 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.879 that timeframe didn't. But it's not something that should be 235 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.759 like highly focused on in a scene. It sort of 236 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.519 takes away from what's actually going on within the story. 237 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:42.639 It kind of negates the diversity of what life on 238 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:45.440 a reservation could be. I'm sure, for instance, for our 239 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.840 listeners who cannot see you, Ashley is a Goth, I 240 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:50.799 think you would say that pretty proudly, right. 241 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:53.440 Yeah, punk and goth influences. 242 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.480 Yes, she's sitting in a black Cleopatra chair right now, 243 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:07.960 for fuck's sake, So you've stolen my culture. You know 244 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.679 what's interesting, We'll get to the plot in the sort 245 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:13.919 of machinations of the film and particularly Graham Green, because 246 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.480 Walter Crowhorse is the greatest character in this film, and 247 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:21.080 it's fucking shocking. We didn't get a series of films 248 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:24.399 or books or comic books or anything with Walter crow Horse. 249 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:28.399 That's staggering. But I will say as a white viewer 250 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.840 watching the film. As soon as Ray sort of makes 251 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.120 the switch and realizes he's been on the wrong side 252 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:38.279 the whole time, in my opinion, he became Tonto. He's 253 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:40.799 Walter's sidekick for the rest of the movie. I kind 254 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:41.919 of viewed the rest of the movie the way I 255 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.480 view Big Trouble in Little China. That movie another movie 256 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.440 sort of you can level a lot of cultural appropriation 257 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.679 and like leveling the all the hidden mysticism of the 258 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.559 of these Asian peoples. But in that movie, very definitely, 259 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:57.879 Kurt Russell is just the fucking sidekick and that flick 260 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.759 he is a bumbler at best. So I don't think 261 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:04.559 that necessarily negates what you're saying, because clearly I never 262 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:07.440 even thought of it as the old Lone Ranger and 263 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.279 Tonto thing, but now it kind of makes sense seeing 264 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.200 them tramping through and Thelcilmer leading the way and everything. 265 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:16.399 But one of the things I love best that's a 266 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.200 great comparison Father alone the Big Trouble Little China, because ultimately, 267 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:25.080 Walter Crowhorse is always two or three steps ahead of 268 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.399 every move that Ray tries to make, because he understands 269 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.360 very quickly that Ray is part of this corrupt situation 270 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.559 coming into the reservation, and they've come in, they already 271 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.679 know who they want to the suspect they want to 272 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.159 frame up on this, and Walter Crowhorse is very aware 273 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.720 of what they're up to, so he's already he's doing 274 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.679 his own investigating. So at every juncture, he is way 275 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.159 ahead of Ray and the rest of the government folks, 276 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:56.360 because he's the one actually looking for the real killers, 277 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:00.399 looking for justice for this murder. So I think that 278 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.799 supports your assertion, Father Malone, that in fact, Ray is 279 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:06.360 the sidekick, even though he's the one who kind of 280 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.879 leads the charge at the end the chase away from 281 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:15.159 the government forces. For me, I think Walter Crowhorse I agree. 282 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.679 Number one, he's my favorite character in the movie. And 283 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.159 number two, I think that Ray is subordinate to Walter 284 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.639 at every point in the movie. I never because it 285 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.720 takes half of the movie for Ray to even have 286 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.799 his spiritual awakening, which is what precipitates his whole change 287 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.519 of focus and his change of perception of what's happening. 288 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:39.559 Yeah, now, I'd like to double back to that because 289 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:41.000 that was the other trope you kind of had a 290 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.879 problem with, and could not agree more because here's the thing. 291 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:47.960 If you stripped away all of the mysticism of this movie, 292 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.399 it's a fucking perfect movie. It's just an examination of 293 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:55.039 life and what's going on on the reservation. You didn't 294 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.759 need one bit of it. Like you can do a 295 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:01.240 fucking Irish story and not go to church at any point. 296 00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:07.400 It's not necessary. Yeah, we're known for it, but come on, I. 297 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:09.680 Agree because that's sort of like something that I think 298 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:13.559 I've experienced where I talk about like discriminated like parallels, 299 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.240 is that, Yeah, he is like way ahead of the game. 300 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:19.599 He knows, he's very aware, and nobody's listening. 301 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:24.599 To him and sort of undermines him, disrespects him, and 302 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:27.279 it's like something that like, that's what I kind of 303 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:29.759 like about that part of the plot is that that 304 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.799 is actually a real experience that a lot of people 305 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.680 from any minorities have faced, where these people. 306 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:37.559 Come in in suits, they're trying to tell them what 307 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:37.920 to do. 308 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.839 They're not listening to anyone else, they're not even familiar 309 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.440 with the community or culture, and they're coming in and 310 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:46.200 telling them how things are. And then like people that 311 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:48.079 are aware, they're like wait, no, no, no, no, no, 312 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.200 and especially like with I forgot her name, but she 313 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:51.240 was the school teacher. 314 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:53.480 The other one that really stuck out to me, or 315 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.279 her character. It's been a minute since I've seen the film. 316 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.240 But I remember her quite what you're talking about, Shila Towsey, 317 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:00.160 her characters. 318 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:02.359 Eagle Bear Yes, yes, Maggie yes. 319 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:05.480 And the reason why it stuck out to me is 320 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:09.000 that she, yeah, she went, she got educated, and she 321 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.279 came back to her reservation to help and to like 322 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:15.960 sort of bring education to the school children and things 323 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.920 of that nature. And so it's like even her her character, 324 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.200 her importance, like her intelligence, was like like I don't 325 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.240 want to hear it. You don't know what you're talking about. 326 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:29.039 And I think that that also, like those like narratives 327 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:31.880 and there really do kind of show that experience where 328 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.359 I don't have an issue with it because it does 329 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.440 really show that contrast. 330 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:36.920 I think. 331 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.480 Let me hit you with another trope, the noble Savage. 332 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:43.799 Is he present in this film? 333 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:51.279 I would say, what was his name in the wheelchair? 334 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.960 Is that Leo not Leo fast Out? 335 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:54.559 That was? 336 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:56.880 Oh he was? 337 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:02.480 His character was working with them. Richard Yellowhawk, Yes, yes, 338 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:03.440 Richard Yellowhawk. 339 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.680 He sort of played that role of being. He was 340 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:12.519 obviously corrupted be utilized as that central figure, and that's 341 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:14.559 what sort of made me kind of go like turning 342 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.799 on your own people, thinking that you're like probably taking 343 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.480 money for it, because that's what I'm assuming. A lot 344 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:23.920 of bribery and all those things sort of happened. 345 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:27.519 And he was only doing it because he wanted They 346 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:28.640 were threatening to put him. 347 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:29.200 Back in jail. 348 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.759 I mean that, I not to say there's any sympathy 349 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.160 for this guy because he we know that he committed 350 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.920 at least one murder in the service of the government, 351 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.240 but they were putting the screws to him at every juncture. 352 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:48.039 They basically told him and under knowing certain terms, you 353 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.440 do this or we're going to send you back to 354 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.720 folsom prison or wherever he was. So he didn't benefit 355 00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:58.400 in any way that I could tell other than the 356 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.039 fact that he was trying to stay out of prison. 357 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.119 Well, it's just like that manipulation tactic. 358 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.000 I was like, because mostly like what I when I 359 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:09.559 think what has happened from what my experience is what 360 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.319 story has been told to me, is that a lot 361 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.319 of the governmental figures, the colonizer figures, will come in 362 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:20.279 find either a weakness something black Maley to kind of 363 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.599 hold against you, and it sort of like challenges your 364 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.640 inner moral You know that this is wrong, but I 365 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.279 have to think of me right now. And so that's 366 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.960 kind of where that that that's that I guess I 367 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.240 hate to say it, but savagery in a way, like 368 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.960 taking that out on your own people. It has happened 369 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.640 throughout history, like it's it's happened at the Battle of 370 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.920 Mormon Mountain where oh yea, even my own people were like, oh, 371 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.799 will help you with food, We'll, we'll, we'll try to 372 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.240 save you and help you in exchange of and that 373 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:55.000 sort of manipulation and like exploitation really comes into play. 374 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:56.920 And that's what like sort of where I get that 375 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:00.440 trope from. Is that like having our own savage against 376 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:01.000 our own people. 377 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:04.079 I hadn't heard it put that way. That's very interesting. Now, 378 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.039 the final shope I want to get into this movie 379 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:09.839 is fucking rife with it. It's got white people as Indians, 380 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.960 It's got a lot of white people who's Indians. Val Kilmer. 381 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.720 Val Kilmer swore up and down he had some kind 382 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:19.000 of strain of blood. I guess, so maybe fred Ward, 383 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.880 fred Ward has no Indian blood. He is not a 384 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.240 Native American in any way, shape or for him. Okay, 385 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.039 now clearly you said it. They set it up so 386 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.200 it's mixed blood. So we can kind of get away 387 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.599 with Val Kilmer. And he's good looking, he's got cheekbones. 388 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.799 We can forgive him. Valcomer should be just automatically accepted 389 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:39.920 by any race. That's kind of my theory on that 390 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:44.119 that transcends this film and all films. But what are 391 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.119 your thoughts on this film? Is this is as gregious 392 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:50.160 as others or does it really pull you out of 393 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:52.279 the movie in any way that they're doing that. 394 00:21:54.119 --> 00:22:01.160 Well, let me think, I think when it comes to 395 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:06.559 let me think, I think, well, I think like with 396 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:10.640 this film in general, like I know that it heavily 397 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.599 leads into the crime genre, a dressing those themes of 398 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:18.240 identity and systematic heritage, and so I do that it 399 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:24.720 shares that like uncovering corruption, historical trauma, and comparatively at 400 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:27.440 the time, I will say at the time, because in 401 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:33.119