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Speaker 1: Prayer is useless. And if you think you're a super

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special person, that your God readjusts his perfect plan so

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you can get that promotion at work while one hundred

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and seven people, including thirty seven children, died in what

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some call an act of God. Then we want to

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hear from you because the show starts. Now, what's up?

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He then's welcome everybody. Today is July twenty and twenty

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twenty five, and I am your host, godless Engineer John Gleeson,

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and joining me today is doctor Blitz. How you doing there,

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doctor Blitz?

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Speaker 2: I am warm and uncomfortable, but otherwise great.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I too am warm and uncomfortable. Heat rises and

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I'm on the half the half story of my house

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and so like, it's it's pretty hot up here right now.

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But I'm glad that you're doing well other than you know,

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being a little hot over there. So what do you

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want to you know, in case anybody doesn't know, do

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you want to tell people like, you know, kind of

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who you are and everything like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm a human that was born somewhere on

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Earth around thirty two years ago. I eventually ended up

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getting a pH d in physics and now as part

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of my science communication out efforts, I engage in debate

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Lord memory. So here we are. I've never been a Christian,

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I've never really believed in God to begin with. But

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you know I still strong opinions.

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Speaker 1: Yep. I also similarly have strong opinions, and I also

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cannot say similarly in a in like a normal way.

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All right, Well, we do have our first caller lined up.

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Are you ready to just jump right on.

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Speaker 2: In as ready as I'll ever be.

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Speaker 1: All Right, Before we get to our first caller, I

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do want to specify that the atheist experience is a

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product of the atheist community of Austin if I have

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one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

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critical thinking, secular humanism, and the operation of religion and government.

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So with that in mind, we're gonna talk to Benji

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from my own state of alicious slamas. I don't I

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don't know what that's supposed to mean. Hey there, Benji,

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how you doing.

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Speaker 3: Hey, I'm good. I don't think I've ever spoke to

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you all before. So I was I was gonna go

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ahead and talk about the how God's patience has gone

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pretty much and also the indoctrination saying, but I'm pretty

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sure y'all would disagree with me on that.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so the notes say that you're you're saying

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that indoctrination is bad at all levels. I'm kind of

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curious what you mean at all levels, like what that

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might specify. But if you want to talk about how

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God's patience has run up? Uh, we could we could

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start there.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean I was gonna. I guess I could

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do both. So the indoctrination saying like everything from uh

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church is terry picking what they want to teach, you know,

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because you know families go to thirds and the ones

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that are religious. Uh. I mean you're from Alabama, so

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you understand this. Uh, I'm I go to Thurts. I've

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been to several different denominations throughout the decades. I'm pretty

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old I even speak Latin, and so I I was.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: I talked about the Bible to people. I teach them

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about the the books that they banned or burned, you know,

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got with of whatever.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people don't count them as tennon. But

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then I explained that if you throw out half a story,

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you can't say the other half is all there is

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you know, you can't look at half a picture and

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say it's the whole thing, and so that the industrination problems.

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One of the things I have a problem with is

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them Seriah picking and doing special pleading and you know,

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all those fallacies and traps that they tend to do.

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I do go to thirt. I am considered it to

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us because I believe in God. But I'm a gnostic

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and there's not really any gnostics left to be honest.

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I'm also a spiritualist, which I didn't realize that's what

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that was. But basically blieking in limbo spirits, that kind

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of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Benji, Benji, could you explain what you mean by

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gnostic because that can mean a couple of different things.

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What do you mean by gnostic?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So God is both Yeah, God's both good and evil.

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The twentyy was added in the fifteen hundreds by the

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Woman Catholic Church, right, well, probably a little earlier than that,

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at the fifteen Nights Dark Ages. The Catholic charts made

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up to twentity. It was not part of the original Joste.

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They added that in later and mean earlier. When I

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was talking to people, I explained that God and Jesus

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not be the same person because God is wrashful and

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a jealous God. And that's actually when they add, you know,

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when they say God's name is jealous, Uh, the asshole.

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A test to that was God's name is the jealous one.

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Because God is jealous. That's why the first thing he

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says is, don't believe in any of the gods but me,

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you know so. But then I trying to teach people's

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stuff about the asshole Bible, the history of it and

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all that stuff, and people give because I want so.

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Speaker 2: Look, it may very well be the case that you

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don't believe in traditional traditional Christian doctrine like the Trinity

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or like the you know, the unity of Jesus and

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the Father and so on. You may very well not

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believe in any of that, but you do still believe

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in God. And so I guess the real question is

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is why just knowledge.

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Speaker 3: That was given to me life experience? Is that kind

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of sane?

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Speaker 1: Also, hold on, Benji, sorry sorry? What knowledge was given

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to you?

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Speaker 3: Well? Just history and just there's stuff. I mean, Book

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and Mary, Book of Paul, a lot of the Hidden Gospels,

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the Dead Seas Glows, which was the old Testament, Uh,

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yoga mass just.

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Speaker 1: Well so so Benji, I'm just kind of curious, like all,

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like the first few books that you mentioned there as

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far as like Christian books go and stuff, I don't

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those come much much later. Like in history. I do

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want to correct one thing. The Trinity wasn't added at

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one particular point. It developed over a long period of time.

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But the first time that it was formally defined was

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in the first Council of Nice in three twenty five Ida.

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Speaker 3: Right, there were the group of people that decided what

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to keep and what to throw out. Yeah, well yeah, uh,

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the leaders of the Catholic well right.

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Speaker 1: But what I'm what I'm what I'm saying is is

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that the books that you mentioned at the very beginning

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of your list of books that contain the knowledge that

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you're talking about, those are known like fabrications that occurred

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much later after the fact. Like those things don't represent

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actual history or any kind of actual knowledge that we

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know of that those are just fabrications written by people

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meant to push some kind of theological narrative about it.

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So I guess I'm going to go back to asking

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asking you, like what knowledge was given to you and

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how did you receive that knowledge? Did you just read

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read these books? Or did did God like directly talk

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to you and tell you that these books are valid

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and related something? How did you get it? And how

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do you know that it's it's accurate?

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Speaker 3: I mean, it kind of just flooded my head, my mind.

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So I mean, in a sense, God gave me the knowledge.

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But also just to point out one sign tennentally, I

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could say that the Bible is a copy or a

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fabrication of a copy, because the flood story was passed

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on eons before the Bible was ever even written, before Genesis, sure,

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epic Gilgames, and before that you had stories and Samaria

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and uh Simond's still Barkin, Samerian tests, Anoka Anaka, Naki tests,

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and a bunch of other ones.

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Speaker 2: So, Benji, you're giving us a great reason.

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Speaker 3: It's apology if there was not money.

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Speaker 2: Benji, you're giving us a great reason to be skeptical

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of all of the religious texts, right. I mean, if

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it's if it's the case that these are religious texts,

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are not describing something that actually happened, but are rather

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stealing stories from something earlier, why should we trust any

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of it? I mean like, perhaps you might say that

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we could trust the earliest case of these, but still

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these are better understood as mythology as folklore. What's the

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reason for believing these texts represent what's true about the world.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean a lot of mythology was based on

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who was that? But they were you know, later bone

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out of proportion. How do you know that strong person

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that was the son of uh, somebody that lived on

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a mountain Hera, which Hercules is not Heracles meant son

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of Hera, and then it was translated to Hercules, and

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that's and and then you have the traid layers and

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all of that other stuff. And then also, I don't

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know if people realize it's either, but it wasn't three

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wise men in the beginning that went to see Jesus.

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There was way more than that. Actually, it doesn't directly

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give a number either, I don't believe.

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Speaker 1: No. I mean, so the gospel stories are are are

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pretty specific about who comes and sees it. And I

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mean I do agree that only one of the stories

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has has wise men coming, and and then in another

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story it's shepherd's uh. So, I mean there is a

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difference there. But as far as is what you're talking

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about are where are you driving that information from? Are

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you driving driving it from later documents?

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Speaker 3: The well, some of it was tablets that they sizzled

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on at the time that was recovered. Other stuff was papaya,

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and then other stuff was stuff that they found later.

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Speaker 2: What what tablets of all tree and papaya is a fruit?

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Speaker 3: I know what the hell papaya is.

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Speaker 2: But that's you're thinking of papyrus.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm talking about the papyrus paper that they used

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to Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, Well, but I'm kind of curious as

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to what tablets are being chiseled on. Is that's recording

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this information? Is My recollection is that there's there's many

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papyrus pieces, Like there's a lot of manuscripts written on

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papyrus that we have fragments of. Uh, but I can't

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think of any tablets that record these things. What tablets

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are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the there was houses that they made

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out of basically play is sent well stone and play

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and doing that time and the you know, they essentially

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they lived in kind of like caves, but it was

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more like like a square house that they built out

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of brick and limestone and so.

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Speaker 2: Not caves, houses made out.

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Speaker 3: Of brick, record stuff on the walls. Well, that's what

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I mean. But they would record stuff on the walls

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similar to what egypsums did you know with the highward

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liverids and that.

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Speaker 1: Well okay, okay, I get that, but you're not telling

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me like typically these tablets they have names associated with

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them so that people can identify which tablet you're talking

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about here? Okay, Like is okay, do you have any

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other information that could help us like verify this because

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and I know I'm asking a question then elaborating, but

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just to let you know, it's coming off to us

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as if you're just ada hocs stating that these things

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have been found, that they verify these things, and that

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they are in fact trustworthy. But what we're trying to

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do is actually assess the information so that we can

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know whether or not it actually is trustworthy information, which

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I'm guessing it's not. So again I'm going to ask

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what specific like tablets are, what specific carvings are you

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talking about?

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Speaker 3: Well, the there was a baghetti of that number, but

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there was a whole lot of tablets that they did

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during that time that had the Hebrew It laws on them.

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The you know, you have to thing commandments, but you

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also had a bunch more that had social laws, legality, laws, government,

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a bunch of others sayings at the same time, and

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so a lot of those are I believe still around.

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, so I'll help you out here. So probably

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the earliest recorded the earliest record that there is of

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any of the things that you were referring to, is

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probably the Epic of Gilgamesh. There is a stone tablet,

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I suppose it was a clay tablet, Yeah, which is

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that has that has parts of the Epic of Gilgamesh

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inscribed on it in Akkadian, and that dates back four

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thousand years or you know, perhaps thirty five hundred years

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or something like that. That certainly exists. But sure we

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can say that the story existed. How do we know

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that the event actually happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean you would have to basically, I mean,

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right now, there's not really a way to look at

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the find a way to see all the events that

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took place in a particular point in time. So you

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have to just go off what was recorded at the time.

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And you're white, by the way, it was clay, not stone,

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But the Epic of Gilgames was actually written before Genesis,

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which they got a lot of stuff in Genesis. I

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know a lot of Christians disagree, but that's why science

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and religion can never be compatible, and it was never

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compatible back then either.

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Speaker 1: But so so Benji, Well, so Benji right, Benji Benji.

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Pivoting off of that point, you say that religion and

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science are are are mutually exclusive or they're time towards

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one another. They can't you know, merge or whatever. So

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with you being religious, does that mean that you reject

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like a lot of scientific discoveries or a lot of

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scientific theories, like is should Is that a reasonable assumption?

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Speaker 3: Well no, no, I mean you can be No, you

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can be scientific and still believe. But but the way

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that people do that is they associate discoveries with God.

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So for example, black holes or new stars or you

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know whatever. I mean, I'm not going to sit here

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and senator to damn dome over the earth. I mean,

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like the firmament. I mean, I'm not going to go

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that far with it, or sit here and be a

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you know, a New Waves creationist and be like, oh

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well the os is only four thousand. No, it's just

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stupid But what I would do is I would say, well,

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you know, the everything that is created or everything that

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does exist or has existed, was created by God. I

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mean that's what most people say. So therefore, anything they're

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not discovered in the future, any technology that we come

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up with in the fare, is allowed by God. And

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so that way, he still gets all the credit. I

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don't like the fact that people buying Lucifer for the

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bad stuff because he's just a scapegoat. But I mean

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other than that, I mean that's there's ways to get

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around the science and religion don't agree. You just have

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to be creative about now back in the day.

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Speaker 1: Is that really Benji? Benji? Benji? Is that really truthful though? Like, Benji,

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I'm sorry, hold on, is that really truthful though? Like,

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if you have to be creative in order to work

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a scientifically minded worldview, you know, into your view of

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the world, is that really all that truthful as far

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as like, you know, you retaining your religious sort of

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Like I guess my question is how truthful is it

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to be creative to work science into your religious worldview?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not like I'm painting the target aroound the yoo.

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If that's what you mean. I mean what I'm seems

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like you are trying to include everything together instead of

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separating to it.

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Speaker 1: Well, well, no, I disagree with your statement about it

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that you're not painting the target around your arrow because

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you've already shot your arrow and and you said, well,

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this is where God is and then you're drawing whatever

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I guess science around it or however that analogy would work.

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You're definitely like cherry picking here, and I just don't

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see that as a very truthful, like you know, thing

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to do or a good thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Well, No, I mean I know the whole Bible. I'm

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not say picking the Bible at all. I know the

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entire bot I know lots the back of my mind.

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I've read it of times. I'm not at the back

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of my hand, but I would.

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Speaker 1: I understand that what I'm saying is that you're cherry

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picking science because I feel like I feel like if

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you would adhere to a scientific worldview, you're gonna come

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And I don't know, maybe Blitz would disagree with me

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on this, but I feel like if you're going to

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adhere to a scientific worldview, at some point, you've got

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to with that cognitive dissonance of working with a religious worldview,

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because the religious worldview, as you yourself stated, it can't

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be all that well merged with the scientific worldview. So

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it just seems like at some point you have to

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be dishonest with yourself.

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Speaker 3: Well it can, well, no, it can. I mean angels

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and every time you're in a different realm, he can

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explain that by multi uvotes or different.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, don't do this.

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Speaker 3: To men tomesself, that that work existence and popping them

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out of existence. I mean, there's different ways to work

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around that. Also.

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Speaker 1: Do you recognize that as ad hoc though? But Benji,

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do you recognize that as being ad hoc? Like you're

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just stating God? Like from what I've heard for you

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so far, Benji, is that your ad hoc stating that

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God is responsible for all these things? Instead of actually

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providing any kind of real evidence to ground your staf

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events in your conclusion that God is responsible, you're just

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saying that God is responsible.

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Speaker 3: Do you want me to form a you want me

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to form a sound argument here to try to prove

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that I'm not gonna sit here and go to the

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scientific mess But I mean I could go ahead in

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five seconds and form a sound argument. I mean, so

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if everything that does exist and will exist uh exist

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and either national or supernatural causes, then either God made

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it or he didn't make it. If and then if

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God did make it, then he's responsible. If he didn't

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make it, something else would have to be responsible. Because

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for every ass and there's an equal, there's an equal

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and opposite. We acs into every everything that's in motion,

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so are the stars every time that's most in space

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and time and everything else. You could argue it started

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with the ben Bang, But there's other stuff that was

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before the Big Bang. There was energy, there was there

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was a state of mass that was close to equal

346
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to zero to absolute zero, but it wasn't absolute zero.

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And and some scientists, and not all of them, but

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some no, I'm gonna cry infinite address.

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Speaker 2: So look, look, so Benji or Benji your.

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Speaker 3: Ji.

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Speaker 1: They were saying, benj sorry, Benji, you're muted right now,

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while Blitz addresses all of the wrong that he just said.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, I mean this is like my nine to eleven, right.

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So the argument that you were making, that you were

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trying to make is that everything that exists has either

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a supernatural or a natural cause. If it has a

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supernatural cause, then God created it, and hence God exists.

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If it has a natural cause, then that natural cause

359
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must therefore also have its own cause, and so on,

360
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and so it seems like you're saying that unless, unless

361
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there is some sort of infinite regress, then God must exist.

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And even if we grant that argument as valid, which

363
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it's it perhaps is valid. I don't know if it sound.

364
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You can't get away from an infinite regress. But even

365
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beyond them, there are models of the universe that have

366
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a beginning without any cause that started the beginning. This

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is it gets a little bit complicated, but there are

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ways to make sense of this from a scientific point

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of view. The whole notion of cause and effect is

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a twenty five hundred ish year old piece of metaphysics

371
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that we just haven't really used to do science for

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the last one hundred fifty years or so. We use

373
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equations now, we use we use what are called evolution equations,

374
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which are a type of differential equation. We just don't

375
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talk about causes and effects when we're really doing science properly,

376
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all right, Benji.

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Speaker 3: Brett, you're bank okay, So if you're talking about scientific.

378
00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:47,680
I know, if you're talking about the scientific, if you're

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talking about the scientific to trasans at the formula of

380
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,480
trasans and all of that stuff with the yield sign

381
00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:56,640
and everything, I'm still I mean, I could use the

382
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,920
yield sign stuff too. I'm pretty good at that too.

383
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And scientific message, but or scientific message, depending on which

384
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one I'm doing. But also I still do the cause

385
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and the fet saying everything must have a cause, otherwise

386
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it wouldn't be in most or it wouldn't do what

387
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it's doing. And so the hold saying one of the

388
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roots of science is discovery. And if you're not trying

389
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to discover everything and any saying that is out there

390
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in the universe, then you're not going to know it

391
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because you're not trying to find the answers to it.

392
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So I do disagree with you. You did get the argument,

393
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,920
by the way, you got the argument pretty good that

394
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,519
I was trying to make. As far as infinite redressing,

395
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there could be infinite regressing, but there is no way

396
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,559
to prove it yet. But if there is infinite redressing,

397
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then that just means that there's always been something, whether

398
00:21:42,839 --> 00:21:45,880
that something is a god or not, would still be debatable,

399
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,039
but there could be something else before the big bag

400
00:21:49,319 --> 00:21:50,960
that is almost existed.

401
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,839
Speaker 2: And the typical definition of a god trying to discover.

402
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,200
So the typical definition of a god is some sort

403
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,759
of mind that created the universe, and perhaps as additional

404
00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:03,920
qualities like it's all powerful, all good. But but just

405
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,680
the barebones definition is a mind that created the universe.

406
00:22:06,759 --> 00:22:09,480
And if the claim is is that if you have

407
00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:11,559
an infinite regress then it could still be God, well

408
00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:15,119
I guess maybe. But the point is is the argument

409
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,640
that you gave does not soundly and validly demonstrate the

410
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,640
existence of a god. At best, it demonstrates a dichotomy

411
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,200
that you either have an infinite regressor you don't, and

412
00:22:24,319 --> 00:22:26,599
at worst it's not even valid. So all I would

413
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,799
say is that these sort of like a prime mover

414
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,839
type arguments, they kind of fail when we begin to

415
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,559
consider the way that things actually are in our universe, right,

416
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,200
I mean, like this notion of this notion of what

417
00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:43,480
even is cause in a timeless universe. Well, that's a

418
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,119
very very hard question to answer. I don't think that

419
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,000
your argument is capable of dealing with that.

420
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Speaker 3: I have an answer to that. I have an answer

421
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,279
to that time didn't exist in the beginning of the universe.

422
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,119
In fact, time didn't exist two thousand years ago because

423
00:22:58,319 --> 00:23:03,400
tendantly time started being measured. Well, whenever they started measuring

424
00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:06,839
the units of time is when the concept of time

425
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,799
actually started. Now, you could also argue that, you know,

426
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,119
time is coexistant with space and all that crap. But

427
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,000
to me, when I started measuring time, it's when it

428
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actually became insane.

429
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Did you did you just did

430
00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:26,519
you just ship on Einstein's theory of general relativity and

431
00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:29,559
special relativity? Did you just ship on all of that

432
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:37,799
by saying all that crap? I'm just asking for a friend.

433
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,839
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Ironstein was wrong on some of that, right,

434
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,640
was wrong on some of that. There is ways to

435
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:50,359
go faster than and well, I mean, how could you know, Benji?

436
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: Benji, we need to stop right now. I need you

437
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,000
to explain to me how to go faster than light.

438
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,039
I would love to know. I would love to hear

439
00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:58,720
this Ted talk.

440
00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 3: Uh Well, I mean to go faster than light, you

441
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,079
would have to break the light barrier speed of light

442
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,279
of tracing uh mc squared basically was ech squared. And

443
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,559
to do that you would have to use a lot,

444
00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:18,880
a lot of energy, and to do that, you would

445
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,880
have to use basically or basically either like newly or

446
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:28,440
fusing power or even like hyperdrives using protons and neutrons

447
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,079
and infinite energy to travel through space. But then you

448
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,440
get the and there's a problem with that because if

449
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,039
you're in vel at light speed.

450
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Speaker 2: They hit the third tower so far away from.

451
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Speaker 3: The Earth, you can't go back to the oaths because

452
00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:44,160
every time's moving away from you.

453
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Speaker 2: So there's a point that with go Benji, this is like, Benji,

454
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,839
are you are you like trained in any particular field away?

455
00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: All right?

456
00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:56,519
Speaker 2: Are you trained? Are you like trained in any field?

457
00:24:56,559 --> 00:24:58,160
Like did you go to school for something or did

458
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,640
you get training in anything? Yeah? Can you tell me

459
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:01,079
what it was?

460
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 3: Signs? Why? Yeah?

461
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:04,799
Speaker 2: For a comparison.

462
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:11,319
Speaker 3: Well, let's see, I did, Yeah, so I did. Uh

463
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:17,880
what is that temple? Like the study of atoms and

464
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,839
energy and energy fluctuation and the energy manipulation that kind

465
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of thing.

466
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Speaker 5: Uh.

467
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,599
Speaker 3: And then I also did physics and uh do.

468
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,279
Speaker 2: You have a degree in physics? You're trained in physics?

469
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 3: The time valation?

470
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Speaker 6: Uh?

471
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, timea Uh?

472
00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:42,519
Speaker 2: Can I can I ask you just a really can

473
00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:45,559
I ask a really really basic question. Could you explain

474
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,960
to me what a tensor is?

475
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 3: The pincer is what you said.

476
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:53,559
Speaker 2: Tensor t E N S O R.

477
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,839
Speaker 3: That's I mean, it's been a while, but I bet

478
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,000
that it's a unit of measurement or it's a type

479
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:03,640
of particle.

480
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: But by the way, it's neither of it.

481
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:08,039
Speaker 3: The time that I was gonna say, the universe is

482
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:12,039
working like it's article. So it's repeating itself over and over.

483
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,799
So once it either would expand infinitely and we would

484
00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:19,279
die in cold, or it would condense and then we

485
00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:22,319
would die from heat and we go back into an

486
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,680
infinite point of mass big bang, and then it would

487
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,839
do it again and repeat itself, and so it would

488
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,799
have its beginning and it would have no end, and

489
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:32,559
it would happen to.

490
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: Then it's a big crunch model, right am? I am

491
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:35,880
I mistaken?

492
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: That's one variant. So Benji, Benji, here's what I would

493
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,079
suggest as a as somebody who's who's field you are

494
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,000
currently like taking an enormous dump on. Please don't uh.

495
00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:50,920
There are plenty of people who know a lot of physics.

496
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,720
It doesn't seem like you're one of them. Rather than

497
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:57,680
watching pop science YouTube videos or watch it or reading,

498
00:26:58,079 --> 00:27:01,079
you know, watching TikTok videos. I suggest pick up like

499
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,359
Peskin and Schroeder, pick up a Griffith's textbook, pick up

500
00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:06,880
Sean Carroll's Spacetime on geometry if you want to learn

501
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,960
about relativity. You could even pick up you know, more

502
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,880
advanced book like Wald, or you could pick up some

503
00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:15,480
you know, you could pick up Soccer Eye if you

504
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:17,079
want to do more quantum stuff. There are a lot

505
00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:18,920
of books. But it seems like none of the things

506
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,440
you were saying had anything to do with any of

507
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,160
those things that are said in the books. So please,

508
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,640
I guess refrain from saying things about physics. It would

509
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,599
make me feel a little lot better.

510
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: Okay, Benji, we do need to Benji, we did. We

511
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,000
do need to move move on to other callers. We

512
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,200
do have calls stacking up, So I'm gonna I'm gonna

513
00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:43,400
allow you to have the last word here. That might

514
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,200
be a bad idea, but I'm gonna let you have

515
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,200
the last word, and then we do need to move on. Okay.

516
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can use gravity and mask to bend space

517
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,480
time and create a time uh temple wormhole to tavel

518
00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:58,039
true time. So I do actually know a lot about physics,

519
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,279
and they actually did design hypercribes for the past twenty

520
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,440
or forty years now.

521
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: One of them, Okay, I did not mute them. He

522
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,319
just went okay, yeah, anyways, by Benji, I'm just gonna

523
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:14,960
go ahead and drop you because that was I begret.

524
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,599
I should not allow the last, the last them to

525
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,279
have the last say. I feel I feel like that

526
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:26,240
was pretty good proof of that. So I do have

527
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,799
a few announcements just really quick for everybody before we

528
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:33,960
get into our next theist caller. First up is the

529
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,319
Back Cruise twenty twenty five is coming up fast August

530
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,480
sixteenth at seven pm. Ticket folks for me, so get

531
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,440
yours today and join people like James S, Kara Ge

532
00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:49,640
Helen G who already have their tickets. If you're not

533
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,079
able to attend, you can still help out by donating

534
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,960
underneath the live chat to purchase a ticket for one

535
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,599
of our hosts or crew. So you can visit tiny

536
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,160
dot c c Ford slash that cruise to get your

537
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,200
tickets and we'll see you on the boat. You can

538
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,680
also get your axp merch at tiny dot c c

539
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:12,720
Ford slash merch Aca. We've got T shirts, sweatshirts, hoodies, hats, pints,

540
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,799
pint glasses, which I need to get me one of those.

541
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:20,559
I'm actually wearing an XP shirt right now. Yeah, it's

542
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,240
it's it's really nice. It's really nice material, So definitely

543
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,000
get you some of that. And before we get to

544
00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:27,880
the next color, I just want to give a big

545
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,119
shout out to the crew who put the show together

546
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:34,960
every single week. Video operators, audio operators, note takers called screamers,

547
00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:38,200
chat moderators, everybody. Thank you guys so much for putting

548
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,039
forth all the hard work to make these shows awesome.

549
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:46,079
All right, now, we're done with announcements for right now,

550
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,319
so Blitz, if you're ready, I'm ready to jump into

551
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:50,039
the next one.

552
00:29:50,359 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, hopefully I can't. Well, I can't imagine it

553
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:53,640
goes worse.

554
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:57,119
Speaker 1: Than that, Yeah don't. I don't know. Maybe, well we'll

555
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:03,319
have to see, but next time it Gohan is next.

556
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,759
Hey there, Gohan, how you doing good?

557
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:06,519
Speaker 6: How are you guys doing?

558
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,079
Speaker 1: Doing pretty good? So what you want to talk about there? Gohan?

559
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,799
Speaker 6: Good? So I want to talk about why view the

560
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,079
claims of Christianity are different compared to claims of another religion.

561
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,039
And then why I trust and like, those differences are

562
00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:25,039
the reasons why I trust Christianity.

563
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,079
Speaker 1: Okay, I to preface this though, what I would ask

564
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,240
is that we sort of got and go at it

565
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,160
one at a time instead of like just you know,

566
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,960
shotgunting an entire list at us. Maybe we could just

567
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,279
go one at a time, like talking, you know, one

568
00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:41,079
point at a time.

569
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,839
Speaker 6: Would it be okay if I like give the list

570
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,880
of reasons and then we go one point out of time.

571
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: How long is your list? Because if it's like ten points,

572
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,720
then we're not gonna be able to get all of them,

573
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,880
and I'd rather not leave anything on the floor. But

574
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,480
if it's like a short list, then sure, yeah, I'd.

575
00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:01,079
Speaker 6: Say somewhere like between four and so. I actually haven't

576
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:03,279
counted it myself, but somewhere.

577
00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:05,519
Speaker 2: Why not start with what you would say is the

578
00:31:05,599 --> 00:31:06,359
best reason?

579
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 6: I would say it's, you know, I'm not really sure

580
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,799
there is a best thing. I'll just get into it

581
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:17,400
really quick, if that's okay with you, guys. The claims

582
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:23,160
of Christianity was made by people who could not have

583
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,200
been mistaken, So they could either be lying or they

584
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,200
could be right, but they couldn't have been mistaken, So

585
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,359
that's one point. Another point is that appearances happened in

586
00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:40,119
the group, but there's no room for like loose nation

587
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,640
or anything like that. And then the third thing is

588
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:49,759
that these are heartfelt claims. These people ended up going

589
00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:52,799
to their deaths for their beliefs. So I would say

590
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:57,119
those three things are things no other religion really has together.

591
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: So have you ever heard of the Gospel of Ehranius?

592
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: Not?

593
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:04,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Gospel of Aphranius is a document that

594
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:11,640
documents the natural, conspiratorial explanation for the entirety of all

595
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,279
of the appearances that have been, all the appearances that

596
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,839
happened post Jesus's death, that accounts for all of the

597
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,160
miracles that have that happened during Jesus's life, and explains

598
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,160
them all in a purely naturalistic and perhaps plausible way,

599
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:26,519
neither of which rely on people being on people lying,

600
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,920
but it does rely on people being mistaken, which, of

601
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,680
course people can be mistaken. So, for example, it's it's

602
00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:38,599
quite plausible that trickery was used to create apparent miracles, right,

603
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,799
It's quite plausible that these early people who witnessed the

604
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,559
risen Jesus or claimed to have witnessed the risen Jesus

605
00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:49,440
could have been tricked by an imposter. Right, So it

606
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:52,799
seems like that at least, given that we know that

607
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,799
those things are possible, that we should give that that

608
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,599
view that this was all an enormous conspiracy conducted by

609
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,079
the Romans far higher credence than any sort of supernatural view.

610
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 6: So as far as like the impostor claim, like, yes,

611
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:12,759
it is possible, but it's something I severely doubt, and

612
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,599
most New Testament scholars, atheists and christiana like severely doubt

613
00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:22,119
that as well. These many why are true claims that

614
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,400
they sat and ate If they sign and ate with

615
00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:28,759
Jesus for extended period of time, there's no way it

616
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:33,119
could have been somebody other than Jesus. These are a

617
00:33:33,119 --> 00:33:36,359
man that spent three years of their lives following this guy.

618
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,880
They would know if somebody else came.

619
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,039
Speaker 1: Oh, that totally depends on which gospel you're reading. There,

620
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,759
I just that. So already there's a problem right there

621
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:49,559
is that it depends on which gospel you read. Sure, sure,

622
00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:51,920
if you're reading John and you're taking John at his word,

623
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,440
then there's like a three year ministry. But if you're

624
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,680
reading the synoptic gospels. Then there's not a three year ministry.

625
00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:00,880
So are you saying that John is the correct gospel?

626
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:04,640
Or is Matthew, Luke and Mark? Are any of those

627
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,960
the correct gospel? Which gospel is the correct one?

628
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,639
Speaker 6: So I'm just saying, these are the claims of Christianity.

629
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,239
Like whether the gospels are trustworthy is a separate thing,

630
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,519
but I like.

631
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: The claims of Christianity are the gospels.

632
00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 6: The claims like.

633
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: The gospels are are a key thing to the claims

634
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,920
like you just said that, Like for instance, you just

635
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,280
said that that they that these people ate with Jesus

636
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,039
and there's no way that an impostor could be there,

637
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,360
you know, being an impostor of Jesus. But there's actually

638
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,360
no record outside the gospels of anybody eating with Jesus

639
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,440
or or even talking to Jesus. It's all all of

640
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,400
the records that we have our post resurrection interaction with Jesus.

641
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,679
Speaker 6: So maybe maybe I should have started with a preface.

642
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,960
This whole idea is assuming like the claims of Christianity

643
00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:01,400
are authentic versus the claims of Islam is authentic.

644
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 3: Claims.

645
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,519
Speaker 6: First, the claims for Buddhism or authentic claims, like if

646
00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:10,480
you take all their claims, give as much credibility to

647
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:13,480
each claim as possible, and then weigh them against each other.

648
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,119
Christianity is only one.

649
00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: So so basically I feel like what your method here

650
00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:21,239
is correct me if I'm wrong, But I feel like

651
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,960
the method that you just laid out was well. If

652
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:29,039
we if we assume that Christianity is truthful in its

653
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:34,400
claims about what happened, then Christianity is the most truthful religion,

654
00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,760
or Christianity can can be trusted more so than any

655
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,920
other one. So I mean, I feel like that's pretty

656
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,079
circular because you're starting out saying, well, Christianity is true,

657
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:46,119
and then you're arguing your way to say, oh, well

658
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:50,519
Christianity is true. That is that at all like what

659
00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:52,400
you're saying here, because I feel like that's what you're saying.

660
00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,079
Speaker 6: No, I'll be honest, it's fairly close. And that's why

661
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:57,840
this isn't made practice because this by itself is not

662
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,960
enough evidence to believe at all. But I did say

663
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,039
this is for all religions. Like if you say Joseph

664
00:36:05,039 --> 00:36:08,400
Smith actually was interpreting the tablets, like we take him

665
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,920
out his word, that who's interpreted in interpreting the tablets

666
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,000
like taking, Yes, could the disciples have been taking that?

667
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,079
That was Jesus very unlikely? Do you see what I'm saying?

668
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,000
How do you know that Joseph Smith I was worried that? Yes,

669
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:25,039
he's trying to how how do you know?

670
00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: How do you know that the apostles were not mistaken?

671
00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:31,280
How do you know that the apostles were not mistaken

672
00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:34,239
about either who they were talking to or who they

673
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,559
were receiving messages from.

674
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 6: You mean like when he's sitting with them after the resurrection,

675
00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:42,119
of eating with them in the upper room. Yep, sure,

676
00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:44,800
I mean honestly, I'm not sure how they could have

677
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,880
been mistaken? How could that have been somebody else?

678
00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: So look, Gohan, the problem is is that A we

679
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,840
know it's possible that they could have been mistaken. We

680
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,320
know that impostors have existed historically. In fact, Nero Nero,

681
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:03,199
the Roman Emperor was impersonated three times, all three of

682
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:07,559
which he gained. The impostor gained significant support, in fact,

683
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:09,280
so much so that at one point one of the

684
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,960
impostors led to war. He convinced people to go to

685
00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:14,920
war because they thought that he was the risen Nero.

686
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,119
So this clearly happens historically, But more so than that,

687
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,440
even if you think it's very unlikely that these people

688
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,960
could be convinced that this person was actually Jesus, even

689
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,320
if he was an impostor, the point is is that

690
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:28,920
the fact we know that that's possible, that that is

691
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,119
something that happens historically, makes it far more likely. It

692
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:34,840
means that your priors for that position should be far

693
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,119
higher than anything supernatural, because supernatural things kind of by

694
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:42,440
their very definition, are not things that we have direct

695
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,400
evidence of them happening. They're not things that we experience

696
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,119
in everyday life. So this is just an argument from priors.

697
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,199
The fact that you know impersonation is possible means that

698
00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:56,320
your priors for impersonation should be orders of magnitude higher

699
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,360
than your priors for Jesus actually being risen.

700
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 6: I think if we're talking about circular arguing, sweep around

701
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,039
at we found a circular argument. There sounds like you're

702
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:10,119
saying anything is more possible than a miracle, So therefore

703
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:12,800
reject any possible miracle because it's not possible.

704
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: No, it's about prior's right. The point is is that

705
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,159
you and I presumable. I mean, maybe you've personally experienced

706
00:38:18,159 --> 00:38:20,039
several miracles in your life. But the point is is

707
00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:23,559
that the kinds of historical occurrences that we're looking at.

708
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:26,559
On the one hand, we can verify tons and tons

709
00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:30,039
of impersonations. We know that impersonation does not require anything supernatural,

710
00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:33,400
and so these are things that the the prior probability

711
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,920
of it happening, even if it's quite low, we know

712
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,679
that it's at least possible. Right on the other hand,

713
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,719
considering that neither you nor I have ever witnessed anybody

714
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,360
coming back from the dead, your prior probability of that

715
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,920
happening should be as close to zero as it can get.

716
00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 3: Why.

717
00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: Oh, because the way that you establish priors is based

718
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,639
off of, you know, prior knowledge.

719
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:57,079
Speaker 6: So I mean, like, if we take my prior probability

720
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:01,280
of me going up onto my roof to fix my shingles,

721
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,280
I haven't done that, but maybe after hurricane season it

722
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,559
might be doing that. So I mean, you can't say

723
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:09,400
it's improbable that would be up on so it's still

724
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,840
so asible, but you don't you can't tell the problem right.

725
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: Look, Look, so so the way that we analyze evidence,

726
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,000
if you want to. If you want to rationally come

727
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:22,199
to conclusions based off of evidence and based off of

728
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:24,039
you know, experiences that you might have had. The way

729
00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:26,639
to do so is via something called Bayesian reasoning, And

730
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:29,039
the way that you do Beajian reasoning is you basically say, okay,

731
00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:32,840
what is my por what is my prior credence in

732
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,239
some view. So if you have some view that, like

733
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,239
you know, if you go fishing, you'll catch a fish, well,

734
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,599
if you've been fishing before, then your prior then your

735
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,480
prior credence should be fairly high because you know that

736
00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:45,840
you can find fish in lakes for example. But on

737
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,360
the other hand, if your hypothesis, if your belief is

738
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,800
that you're going to catch I don't know, a dinosaur

739
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,760
when you go fishing, well your prior credence in that

740
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,039
view should be very very low, just because you've never

741
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:01,199
done that before and you know that all the are dead. Now,

742
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,800
after you've established your priors, then you can go and

743
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,519
examine what the evidence does. And if the evidence strongly

744
00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:09,559
favors one hypothesis over another, then that can change your

745
00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:12,320
priors to make them posteriors. That can change your credence

746
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,480
based off of what the evidence is. So if, for example,

747
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,760
you don't think that there are any selacants that it

748
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,199
still exists, you think that they're long extinct, and then

749
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,559
somebody goes and finds a selacant, Well, even if your

750
00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:25,920
prior was very very close to zero, the fact that

751
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,880
you can then find one means that your posterior credence

752
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,400
just shoots straight up to like ninety nine percent. Now

753
00:40:31,519 --> 00:40:35,239
the question is is how good is the evidence? Can

754
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,599
it shift the priors the prior of supernatural things happening

755
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,880
being so low, in the priors of being you know,

756
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,519
natural things happening being you know, perhaps low, but not

757
00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:45,840
very low. Is the evidence so strong to shift that

758
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,599
probability distribution, to make it so that even though it's

759
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,000
much much much much less likely without any evidence that

760
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:54,519
Jesus actually rose from the dead compared to Jesus being

761
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,440
in being impersonated, is the evidence from say the Bible

762
00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:02,599
so strong that it blows the possibility of Jesus being

763
00:41:02,599 --> 00:41:05,039
impersonated out of the water. That's how we establish this.

764
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,079
And so the question is is what is the priors

765
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:09,599
that you come at this with. And I would argue

766
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:11,800
that your prior for Jesus coming back from the data

767
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,320
should be remarkably low, so close to zero that essentially

768
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,800
any evidence should make it impossible or no evidence should

769
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:18,320
make it possible.

770
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 3: Rather so, I mean, I.

771
00:41:20,199 --> 00:41:24,519
Speaker 6: Think that's the basis of like to me that I'm

772
00:41:24,559 --> 00:41:26,920
sorry if I sound offensive, But to me, that sounds

773
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,000
very close minded when you say the possibility of this

774
00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:31,840
happening you should be so close to zero that no

775
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,840
avindue should.

776
00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: No so so. But but Gohan, I'm just kind of curious.

777
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,280
What's closed minded about saying, well, the like the prior

778
00:41:41,559 --> 00:41:46,039
likelihood of this event being like either Jesus resurrecting from

779
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:49,639
the dead or maybe you know something along those lines.

780
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,000
How is it closed minded to say, well, if you

781
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:57,679
have strong enough information evidence to overcome those prior likelihoods,

782
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,960
then then then you know you can actually prove that

783
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:06,760
your statement is correct. How is asking for more evidence

784
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,920
and solid evidence to support your conclusion? How is that

785
00:42:10,039 --> 00:42:10,679
closed minded?

786
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 6: You're right if you phrase it like that, it's not.

787
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,800
But if you give it such a low probability where

788
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,519
you state that no amount of evidence would be changing

789
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:21,440
your mind, Like, it's not zero, but no amount of

790
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,199
evidence would change your mind, I don't understand how that's not.

791
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,679
Speaker 1: I don't think that's what Blood said. Is that what

792
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,079
you said, Blave, it's.

793
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: Perhaps what I said what I meant, I mean if

794
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,679
I did say that, what I meant to say is

795
00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:34,480
that I don't think that any written testimony is going

796
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:37,000
to be sufficient to overcome that. Now, look if somebody

797
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:39,800
went and they actually found like a little like besides

798
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,760
roun Wyatt, if they actually went and found a little

799
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,760
blood sample from like some tomb in Jerusalem that only

800
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,400
had twenty three chromosomes or whatever, and like then it

801
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,079
had like one god chroma like, if they actually found that,

802
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,760
then sure that would be really compelling evidence. And even

803
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,360
though the supernatural claim has very very low priors, that

804
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,480
would probably shoot your credence in the position very very high,

805
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:01,480
at least, you know, to like eighty ninety whatever percent.

806
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,519
But saying that, oh, these people claimed that they met

807
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:09,840
with the guy, when there is an equally good explanation

808
00:43:10,039 --> 00:43:14,599
that doesn't require supernatural explanation, it seems like whatever your

809
00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:17,920
prior should be, because supernatural things are by definition not common,

810
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,480
it seems like that your priors, your priors for the

811
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,559
supernatural thing should be lower than the prior for the

812
00:43:23,639 --> 00:43:26,079
natural thing, and they both equally well explain the evidence,

813
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,880
So the prior for the for the natural thing will

814
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,400
go up by the same amount that the prior for

815
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,159
the supernatural thing will. So the natural explanation will always

816
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:36,159
be favored unless you find supernatural evidence.

817
00:43:36,159 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: Of course, so I think it.

818
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 6: Like, yeah, let's rephrase the statement too, not like any

819
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,079
thing won't change my mind. But as you say, like

820
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,239
it's so low, but written testimony alone won't change my mind.

821
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,760
I'm fine rephrasing it to that. So sorry, could you

822
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,599
resay to a question I just want to say that

823
00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:56,199
really quick.

824
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, all I'm saying is that when you have two

825
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,519
pieces of when you have two hypotheses that make the

826
00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:04,920
same predictions about the you know, about what would happen,

827
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:07,840
and so they're both equally well explained by the data,

828
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:11,320
which the imposter hypothesis and the resurrection hypothesis are both

829
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,679
equally well explained by the data, by the data that

830
00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:16,599
we have, you know, document documents of people claiming resurrection

831
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:19,679
and so on, then that means that the credence you

832
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,400
have in them, how strongly you believe those those explanations,

833
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,000
rise by the same amount. So if the natural explanation

834
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:31,039
starts off with a with more credence with a higher probability.

835
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,119
Then even if you have really good evidence that explains

836
00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:38,880
the UH or that that is predicted by the resurrection hypothesis,

837
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,119
well they're both going to go up by the same

838
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:42,800
amount unless you find some piece of evidence that can

839
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,800
distinguish between the two, Like finding Jesus's blood for example,

840
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:46,760
would be a good way to do that.

841
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think.

842
00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 6: The one problem I have is I don't define a

843
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,960
miracle the same way you do, as being the least

844
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,760
probable or very rare occurrence. So I think the miracles

845
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,320
any time there's to bind intervention, and I think diviner

846
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,559
invention actually happens quite a lot. But I'm so having.

847
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: Surely natural things are more common than supernatural things the probability, and.

848
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: How would you well, I'm wondering, how would you be

849
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,960
able to discern between some natural phenomena that you don't

850
00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:19,000
understand and a god miracle.

851
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 6: I've actually wanted to comment on this pretty much my

852
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,079
whole life. This kind of gets into the idea of magic.

853
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,159
Is it's impossible to tell magic from any highly advanced

854
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,519
sufficiently highly advanced technology? Is that true. Is that kind

855
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:34,119
of your question?

856
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I mean I didn't bring up magic,

857
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,000
but yeah, I mean I think that the miracle claims

858
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,320
are pretty much you know, magical claims, but not just

859
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,639
sufficiently advanced technology, but just any natural phenomena that we

860
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:52,199
don't understand, because, like, just to give you a for

861
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:55,360
instance here, we used to think that God was responsible

862
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,039
for lightning. You know, the Greeks and the Romans thought

863
00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:02,119
that their respect, God crafted lightning bolts and you know,

864
00:46:02,199 --> 00:46:05,079
through them, and uh, that get transferred a little bit

865
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:09,199
to God. God throws lightning bolts and shocks people in

866
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,679
the in the Old Testament a lot, but we always

867
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,840
thought that lightning was the product of God. But we

868
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,239
understand lightning better now. Maybe not completely. I remember seeing

869
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,119
a doctor blitz stream or or a conversation about that recently,

870
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:27,440
but but we have a better understanding of lightning and

871
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,960
it's definitely not a God thing, right, So I'm kind

872
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,280
of curious what you're under like, what what is your

873
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,039
way a method for discerning between God magically making something

874
00:46:39,119 --> 00:46:42,599
happen and then just some phenomena that we just don't

875
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:44,239
understand yet.

876
00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, I wouldn't say it like anything I don't understand

877
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,840
as God. Uh, that sounds very much like a god

878
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,639
of the gaps. A lot of the things that I

879
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:57,400
do understand I see as pointers to there being a God.

880
00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:00,800
So a lot of the reasons I do believe is

881
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,800
because of things I've learned to understand. So I would

882
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,519
never say like, I don't understand this, therefore gone right.

883
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: I wasn't saying that, though. Gohan. Let me repeat my question,

884
00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:18,400
what is your method for distinguishing between God, miracles or

885
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:22,440
magic and just natural phenomena that we don't understand?

886
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,159
Speaker 6: Can I change the question? Take off that last setting

887
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:27,000
of what?

888
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 7: No?

889
00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: Wait, hold on, why are you changing my question to you?

890
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,400
It's I don't like the question? Can I ask a

891
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,599
different question? Please know I asked you a question. The

892
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:42,039
question is what is your methodology for discerning between magic

893
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,639
and natural phenomena that we don't understand?

894
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:45,079
Speaker 3: Okay?

895
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,159
Speaker 6: So I would say, it doesn't matter if it's phenomenon

896
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,880
we do understand or not. I would say, how do

897
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:57,440
I determine between or miracles and something natural? Is same

898
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,679
way I determine if it's a person behind me getting

899
00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:05,320
hit by something or not if I can see that

900
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:10,199
there was intention and low odds of something happening, then

901
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,079
most likely somebody tried to make that happen. Same thing

902
00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:17,400
for me. Okay, so there's intention low odds of something happening.

903
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: So so go on, go on use it. Using that

904
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:24,760
right there, you would you would then have to admit

905
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,519
that there are some lightning strikes that are thrown by God.

906
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,239
Is that something that you would say is accurate, like

907
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,719
there are some lightning strikes or some weather events that

908
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,320
are caused by God.

909
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 6: I wouldn't say yes or no. I mean, I have

910
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,159
no idea of God through lightning. I wouldn't say he can't.

911
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,320
I wouldn't say he definitely did. I have no idea.

912
00:48:46,559 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: Look, using your same criteria for determining whether something is

913
00:48:51,679 --> 00:48:55,159
supernatural or whether it's uh perhaps has a natural explanation,

914
00:48:55,559 --> 00:49:00,000
you said that if it is super rare and seems direct,

915
00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:03,519
I'm paraphrasing, but you could imagine, and I'm sure that

916
00:49:03,559 --> 00:49:07,280
this has happened in the past where somebody an atheist,

917
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,599
got struck by lightning and that's really rare and it's

918
00:49:10,639 --> 00:49:14,400
perhaps deserved under your worldview. Anyway, would we then be

919
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:17,320
justified in saying that it was God that caused that

920
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:18,559
person to be struck by lightning.

921
00:49:19,199 --> 00:49:22,079
Speaker 6: So the kind of rarity I'm talking about is not

922
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,239
like something that happens like that, where it's yes, it's

923
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,760
rare that lightning will strike this spot at this time.

924
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,960
But I'm talking like orders of magnitude more rare, like

925
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,559
ten to one orders of magnitude.

926
00:49:36,679 --> 00:49:38,559
Speaker 2: Oh, do you want to talk about the cosmogical constant

927
00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:39,519
because we can talk about that.

928
00:49:42,159 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, so yeah, stuff like that. I was going more

929
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,679
a biogenesis.

930
00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 2: And well the ten to the one and twenty power thing,

931
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,800
that's that's a cosmological constant thing. I know that number

932
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,599
like I was born with it. That's not an a

933
00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:54,519
biogenesis thing.

934
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:55,079
Speaker 3: Good.

935
00:49:56,119 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 6: It actually does deal with.

936
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: DNA for Okay, can you cite the relevant paper so

937
00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:05,559
then I can go take a look at it.

938
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 6: I can't. It was in my organic chemistry class. There's

939
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,320
a big green textbook is I'm pretty sure there are

940
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,039
titles organic chemistry. If you give me a second, I

941
00:50:16,039 --> 00:50:16,960
can find you the author.

942
00:50:17,079 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah sure, please one second? Sorry, Yeah, go ahead. Yeah,

943
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,840
So the ten to one hundred and twentieth, by the way,

944
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:25,599
that's a I know that you're looking as I'm just

945
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:28,199
talking to the audience at this point. That's a claim

946
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,920
about the deviation that the cosmogical constant has the observed

947
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,480
cosmogical constant that we see in the universe compared with

948
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:38,480
the theoretical predictions of what the cosmogical constant should be. Now,

949
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,360
there are some issues with this claim, namely that oh

950
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,639
and so so. Then the argument goes by theists is that, ah, well,

951
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,320
you know, if it's off by one hundred twenty orders

952
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,039
of magnitude, it must be it must have been chosen

953
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:50,239
to be that way. Now, of course, the trouble with

954
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,920
this argument is that it relies on the understanding that

955
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:58,159
the theoretical prediction is actually correct, and not that it's

956
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:00,679
off by one hundred twenty orders of magnitude. Because the

957
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:05,039
relationship between the thing being calculated and the observed cosmogical

958
00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:08,360
constant is a correct is a true relationship, of course,

959
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,039
it's almost certainly not a true relationship. And even then,

960
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,480
that particular number one hundred ten to one and twentieth

961
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:18,519
power that number is even if you assume that is

962
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:21,480
the correct relationship, kind of like the bear relationship, if

963
00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:24,480
you just do a little bit of you know, thinking

964
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:26,519
about the way that we expect gravity to behave in

965
00:51:26,559 --> 00:51:28,960
the microscopic scale. What you find is that that actually

966
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,119
all goes away. We would actually expect a small cosmogical constant.

967
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:34,360
That's putting aside the fact that we now have evidence

968
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,760
that there isn't a cosmogical constant in our universe at all.

969
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:41,039
So anyway, hopefully it filled enough time for go Huan

970
00:51:41,079 --> 00:51:42,440
to go find the author of this textbook.

971
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, goat right now, I'm not fine in it.

972
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, we have been on

973
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,559
the call for about twenty four minutes, and we do

974
00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:58,239
have other callers to get to, so we do need

975
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,519
to sort of be wrapping up so that we can

976
00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:03,719
get to the other callers in our show's time frame.

977
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,119
So I don't know as far as wrapping up here

978
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,800
at the end of the call, I didn't really hear

979
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,199
anything that would be compelling that would make me trust

980
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,199
like Christianity more. And I don't understand why you trust

981
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,360
Christianity other than you just trust Christianity. Do you recognize,

982
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,239
maybe we can end on this particular topic. Do you

983
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:31,679
recognize that that your trust of Christianity, your level of

984
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,199
trust with Christianity would be similar to those in different

985
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,840
religions that they would trust their religion just as much

986
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,199
as you trust your religion, And so it ends up

987
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,119
being like just an equal thing, like you know, you're

988
00:52:46,519 --> 00:52:49,239
adhering or you're trusting your religion just as much as

989
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,840
a Muslim is trusting Islam, and just as much as

990
00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:55,519
Mormon is trusting Mormonism. Do you recognize that?

991
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 6: So I think this is a really good thing. I

992
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,480
appreciate you guys being on the call, taking me on

993
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:03,760
the call. The thing I wanted to get into was

994
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,679
this exactly my original claim is not just like, well,

995
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,920
my claim on this call wasn't just that we should

996
00:53:11,159 --> 00:53:16,639
trust Christianity solely because of them, even with Muslims. Muslims

997
00:53:16,639 --> 00:53:20,679
cannot claim that the founders of their religion could not

998
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:26,599
have been wrong. Died a martyr's death, and those three

999
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,159
things I said at first, so they couldn't be wrong.

1000
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,840
They died a martyr Seth. I forget the third one.

1001
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:35,960
I don't know if any of you all remember it.

1002
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,840
There were three things Christianity.

1003
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so heartfelt heart there's heartfelt claims. You mentioned eyewitnesses,

1004
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,880
and then you also mentioned the false dichotomy of they're

1005
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,360
either lying or they're.

1006
00:53:49,199 --> 00:53:53,519
Speaker 6: Truthful, right, so they couldn't be wrong. They're either lying

1007
00:53:53,599 --> 00:53:56,719
or tell the truth. They were seeing in groups these

1008
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,400
occurrences of Jesus after the Death and resurrection, and they

1009
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,079
died for their beliefs. Muslims can claim a lot of

1010
00:54:05,119 --> 00:54:07,280
their people died for their beliefs, but they can't.

1011
00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:10,559
Speaker 1: So you can't you can't actually prove that the apostles

1012
00:54:10,639 --> 00:54:14,440
died for their beliefs. For one, the martyrdom stories are

1013
00:54:14,519 --> 00:54:17,559
are generally overblown. And there's actually a really great book

1014
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:23,639
out there about the myth of persecution. I can't remember

1015
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:26,000
the author's name, but the book title is the Myth

1016
00:54:26,039 --> 00:54:29,280
of Persecution. Uh, So you can't actually prove that they

1017
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,679
were persecuted in that way. The only ones that we

1018
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,639
can be sure of that were quote unquote martyrs would

1019
00:54:34,639 --> 00:54:37,320
have been Peter and Paul. And even then, I don't

1020
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,880
think that you can prove sufficiently that they were given

1021
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,719
a chance to recant their belief So, I mean that's

1022
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,000
just an ad hoc statement that they were martyred in

1023
00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:51,079
that way. Anyways, Gohan, you know, this has been a

1024
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:54,599
great call. We went through a whole lot of different topics, uh,

1025
00:54:54,639 --> 00:54:57,119
and I appreciate you calling in but uh, oh it

1026
00:54:57,159 --> 00:54:59,960
was doctor Candida Moss. That's who it is, the myth

1027
00:55:00,079 --> 00:55:02,719
the persecution. Thank you in the chat there for forgetting

1028
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,679
that for me. But Gohan, I gave the last color

1029
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:09,920
of the last say. Uh, but you know we're we're

1030
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,280
we're gonna head on out right now. And I hope

1031
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,239
that you have a great night. Okay, Bud, Yeah you too.

1032
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:15,599
Speaker 6: Thank you guys for the cool all right.

1033
00:55:15,519 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: Thanks going all right, Yes, I learned my lesson for sure.

1034
00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:27,559
Yeah right, uh okay, all right. So uh, the next

1035
00:55:27,559 --> 00:55:31,800
person we have is John from California. What's up there, John?

1036
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:32,400
How you doing?

1037
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:33,079
Speaker 3: Hey?

1038
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:34,159
Speaker 2: The going good?

1039
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: Pretty good? Doing good?

1040
00:55:36,519 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 3: Uh?

1041
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 1: What's your uh? What's your question for us today?

1042
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 4: So I'm coming not to make it, not to ask

1043
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,280
a question, but to make a claim. Okay, this is

1044
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,199
I feel like this is the right show to look

1045
00:55:46,199 --> 00:55:48,960
into this. It's the good part of this claim is

1046
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:51,920
you don't have to take my word for anything. You

1047
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,159
can independently verify this even if you don't agree with

1048
00:55:55,199 --> 00:55:58,360
my interpretation of this, my claim itself, we can you

1049
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,199
know it's it's a falsifiable so to the true or

1050
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,639
it's not. And I'm very confident that it's true.

1051
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:05,159
Speaker 1: All right, shoot shoot.

1052
00:56:05,679 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 4: My claim is that nobody, nobody knows what the Lord's

1053
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:11,440
prayer means?

1054
00:56:11,639 --> 00:56:13,599
Speaker 1: How does how does his prayer.

1055
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 4: As it's comes comes down to us in the Gospels,

1056
00:56:16,639 --> 00:56:20,719
it contains a word in Greek that appears nowhere else.

1057
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,360
That isn't you know, that isn't like a word that

1058
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,760
we have a definition for. It's like if Jesus going

1059
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,920
to phrase specifically, and this whole time, for the past

1060
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,480
two thousand years, nobody's brought this up. Like I just

1061
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,519
feel like anywhere like you guys would be the the

1062
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:37,119
ACA would be the perfect people to like jump on this.

1063
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,199
Nobody knows what the Lord's prayer means, Like that feels

1064
00:56:40,199 --> 00:56:41,639
significant to me. I don't know.

1065
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,159
Speaker 1: Okay, this is not really I don't I don't know

1066
00:56:45,159 --> 00:56:48,519
about you, but this is not really help helping me whatsoever.

1067
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,440
Hold on, I'm gonna have to mute you, John if

1068
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,239
you can't stop talking while I'm talking. I don't know

1069
00:56:55,599 --> 00:56:58,280
how like what what what benefit is this? Let's just

1070
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,679
say nobody understands it. Do what what? What does this

1071
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:02,559
mean for anything?

1072
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 4: I would like to propose an alternative meeting, which has

1073
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,039
become the basis of my faith that me actually makes

1074
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:13,559
scripture makes sense the word that I'm making, you know,

1075
00:57:13,639 --> 00:57:14,480
So that's the second.

1076
00:57:14,559 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: What's the translation that you're getting that word?

1077
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 4: Sorry, I don't have it off time. It's a peace

1078
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:26,599
fool loan. I believe the word that translated as daily

1079
00:57:26,719 --> 00:57:29,039
bread at poc on, thank you, thank you?

1080
00:57:29,159 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 2: So what's your translation for that is a word.

1081
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 4: That appears nowhere else in the Greek language.

1082
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 2: Okay, what's your translation for it?

1083
00:57:35,559 --> 00:57:37,719
Speaker 4: And again, this is the there's two parts of this.

1084
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,760
There's my insert free bread for everybody every day, and

1085
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,400
that's what Jesus was telling us to do.

1086
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: Based based and everybody gets free food.

1087
00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:50,159
Speaker 4: Pilled only carbo hydrate only. That's a very important. We

1088
00:57:50,199 --> 00:57:52,960
still need an economy, but only carbo hydrate. You get

1089
00:57:53,039 --> 00:57:54,519
enough carbo hydrates to survive.

1090
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 2: I think this is a meme.

1091
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:58,039
Speaker 1: Are you a troll?

1092
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 4: Car is genuine real? This is genuinely real. This is

1093
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:03,519
my belief.

1094
00:58:04,199 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: John, let's let's test this out. John my paint No, no, John, John, John, John, John, John,

1095
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,880
My pancreas is broke as fuck. Okay, I have to

1096
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,719
take insulin. I got I got a pump right here

1097
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,280
insulin pump. I've got to take insulin every day. I

1098
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,320
cannot just eat free carbs or whatever in the fuck

1099
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,360
that's supposed to mean. How does that? Yeah?

1100
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:26,519
Speaker 3: How?

1101
00:58:26,719 --> 00:58:29,119
Speaker 1: How does how does that translate? For all of the

1102
00:58:29,159 --> 00:58:32,079
diabetics that have ever existed? Like, as far as these

1103
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:37,920
free carbs go from Jesus's uh supposed flesh, I'm not.

1104
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 4: Going to tell you how your diabetes works. And you

1105
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,079
know it's your body or it's your business. I have

1106
00:58:43,199 --> 00:58:46,039
some diabetics in my family. While they did have to

1107
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:50,639
manage their intake of sugar, they absolutely eat carbohydrates. There

1108
00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:52,119
is no way that you can servive.

1109
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, yes, yes, I still eat carbohydrates.

1110
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,159
I'm trying to discern what in the fuck you mean

1111
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:01,679
by free carbs for every money like that, I just

1112
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,280
in in particular for a diabetic like I just don't

1113
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,280
understand what that means. I didn't say that diabetics don't

1114
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:08,920
eat carbs.

1115
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 2: That's not what he just wants breadlines like in the

1116
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,719
Soviet Union, free carbs.

1117
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,039
Speaker 1: Get your carbs here, get your carbs.

1118
00:59:18,679 --> 00:59:21,519
Speaker 4: Seeds from right by the wayside. If the Catholic Church

1119
00:59:21,559 --> 00:59:23,159
had done this, we don't have communism.

1120
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: No, I'm sorry, Oh okay, uh no, but still I'm

1121
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:27,960
trying to figure out.

1122
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:29,519
Speaker 4: Spons so that would be we would give you a

1123
00:59:29,519 --> 00:59:30,719
slightly smaller portion.

1124
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: So so hold on, why do we have this word

1125
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,519
defined in Greek lexicons? Is it? Is it? Are you

1126
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:39,679
saying that the only reason why we have this word

1127
00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:41,880
defined in Greek lexicons is because of Jesus?

1128
00:59:42,199 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 4: Well, it's it was only used in by Jesus, That's

1129
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,079
what I'm saying. I don't think we really do have

1130
00:59:48,159 --> 00:59:52,280
a definition, the definition that we've accepted as daily bread.

1131
00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:55,360
I disagree that that, you know, that's basical. What my

1132
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,400
claim is that that that that the definition that we've

1133
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,840
accepted is wrong or does it have any evidence? Doesn't

1134
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,159
have enough evidence to convince me that it's true.

1135
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,559
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't understand what you're talking about here is

1136
01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:11,760
the bread part? No, you're because because you're complicating No wait, John,

1137
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,519
you're complicating the Greek here. The actual Greek is ton

1138
01:00:15,119 --> 01:00:19,119
hamannuson or I'm sorry, I don't know how you pronounce

1139
01:00:19,159 --> 01:00:22,599
that exactly in Greek. But so that's the entire phrase,

1140
01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:25,400
and that's the bread of us daily. So that's what

1141
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,679
you're calling the daily bread, and so it's actually like

1142
01:00:28,719 --> 01:00:32,239
an entire phrase here that means the daily bread. So

1143
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,559
I don't know what you mean by there's a singular

1144
01:00:34,599 --> 01:00:39,159
word for daily bread. The epussion right there is is

1145
01:00:39,519 --> 01:00:42,280
daily and then bread is arton as far as the

1146
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,239
interlenear goes. So which one are you saying is the

1147
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,920
unique word? Is it the is it the epussion.

1148
01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 3: Or is it.

1149
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: Yes, so that means so, that means daily, So that

1150
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:59,679
means daily. So so you're saying that daily the understanding

1151
01:00:59,719 --> 01:01:04,199
of day daily here is unique to the Gospel of Matthew.

1152
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,679
And I'm not even sure if Luke uses that word,

1153
01:01:06,719 --> 01:01:09,000
but I would assume Luke uses the same general word.

1154
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,239
Speaker 2: So the the trouble is is that it's I'm sure

1155
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,760
that the word that other words for the word daily

1156
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,440
appear elsewhere, is just that this particular Greek word doesn't

1157
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,599
appear elsewhere except in Luke and in the word's prayer

1158
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,760
right exactly. But I mean, like, okay, suppose that that's true.

1159
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,519
Does this mean that there is a guy? Does this

1160
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:28,119
mean that there's a.

1161
01:01:28,119 --> 01:01:31,159
Speaker 4: God that in and of it that in and of itself,

1162
01:01:31,199 --> 01:01:33,480
wouldn't There's a lot of other evidence that I would

1163
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,519
have to use to support that one. But this one,

1164
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,039
what it means is that we've been worshiping God wrong

1165
01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:41,880
the entire time. We're way off here.

1166
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need Soviet redline heard her first.

1167
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,639
Speaker 4: I think this is where we started. My genuine argument

1168
01:01:48,719 --> 01:01:51,480
is that communism would have never happened if the Catholic

1169
01:01:51,599 --> 01:01:53,199
Church had just been doing this the whole time.

1170
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,199
Speaker 2: That would be My question is do you have a

1171
01:01:55,239 --> 01:01:57,679
degree in Greek? And Greek.

1172
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 4: Definitely not even pronounce. I push you on whatever it is, So.

1173
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 2: Then why do you think that you know the correct translation?

1174
01:02:04,639 --> 01:02:07,480
And like the ancient or like the ancient Greek scholars,

1175
01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:11,360
the Aramaic scholars and so on, aren't correctly translating it.

1176
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 4: That was why at the beginning I wanted to be

1177
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,360
very clear. There's sort of two parts of this claim.

1178
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,760
There's the claim that we don't know what it is,

1179
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:23,480
which is falsifiable, and then there's my own personal interpretation

1180
01:02:23,639 --> 01:02:25,800
of it, which we can talk about, but that's a

1181
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,519
separate claim. The reason I'm making this claim is because

1182
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:31,440
other writers can back me up on this. Nobody has

1183
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,719
ever seen this word before. When we translate it, quote unquote,

1184
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:36,360
all we're doing is make it the best get.

1185
01:02:36,639 --> 01:02:39,239
Speaker 2: So it is true that it's like not's we don't

1186
01:02:39,239 --> 01:02:42,280
have a certainty on this word. To say that nobody

1187
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,599
knows is probably too strong a statement. Better, it's better

1188
01:02:45,639 --> 01:02:48,079
to say that we can only infer what it means.

1189
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:49,920
But that doesn't mean that, like we don't have any

1190
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,559
knowledge whatsoever about what it could mean. Like it's definitely

1191
01:02:52,599 --> 01:02:55,119
not going to mean like the Statue of Liberty. Right, So,

1192
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,079
all I'm saying is that I don't know. I trust

1193
01:02:58,079 --> 01:03:00,719
the people who are doing the translation better, and if

1194
01:03:00,719 --> 01:03:03,199
they have good justifications for translating the way that they are,

1195
01:03:03,719 --> 01:03:05,559
it seems like that they're probably more justified in that

1196
01:03:05,559 --> 01:03:06,320
position than you are.

1197
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,559
Speaker 4: What if they had an economic incentive to hide the truth?

1198
01:03:09,599 --> 01:03:12,039
And I'm tired there's a conspiracy going way back here.

1199
01:03:12,559 --> 01:03:17,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't entertain like conspiracy theories like that, like, oh,

1200
01:03:17,239 --> 01:03:21,400
there's a big conspiracy to hide it, like I So,

1201
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,480
so I still don't understand how this how this benefits

1202
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,480
deliberate But okay, I still don't understand how any of

1203
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,840
these gets us anywhere anything in the world.

1204
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,639
Speaker 4: If the Catholic Church gave up whatever it was doing,

1205
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:36,159
and I've been doing free beer and free popcorn for

1206
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:38,840
everybody the whole time. What if Christopher Columbus had come

1207
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,159
over it and instead of trying to convert people, instead

1208
01:03:41,159 --> 01:03:43,920
of genociding people, and just like giving them free bread,

1209
01:03:44,159 --> 01:03:46,760
like here's bread, people would have probably converted anyway.

1210
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 2: It's so cool but irrelevant.

1211
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: You can't see so you're saying.

1212
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 4: People are starving. People are starving.

1213
01:03:53,639 --> 01:03:55,519
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold.

1214
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 4: On organization and not a political organization.

1215
01:03:59,199 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: No so, John, Look, I don't understand how changing. You're

1216
01:04:03,559 --> 01:04:09,519
basically without any kind of of actual uh expertise here.

1217
01:04:09,599 --> 01:04:13,440
You're just reassigning this word to mean free. Am I

1218
01:04:13,559 --> 01:04:15,400
understanding that correctly? I just want to make sure I'm

1219
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:16,480
understanding you correctly.

1220
01:04:17,039 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 4: I don't think I'm coming out of left field though,

1221
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,880
because it comes right aftergive what is give? Typically imply?

1222
01:04:23,239 --> 01:04:26,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't come right. I mean it says, it

1223
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:33,000
says the break, it says to you. No, Like, I

1224
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,199
still don't understand how this is. Like all that this

1225
01:04:36,199 --> 01:04:39,679
would entail is that the communion would be given for free,

1226
01:04:39,719 --> 01:04:42,360
which is already given for free. I mean you don't

1227
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,400
have to pay to take communion, or at least I

1228
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,480
never did. I mean you got to donate to the church.

1229
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:47,440
That's whatever you.

1230
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 4: Should be doing. More communion every day?

1231
01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:49,719
Speaker 3: Right?

1232
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 1: Well, okay, wait, more communion, a communion, communion every day?

1233
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:57,519
I'm sorry, when was the last time you had communion?

1234
01:04:57,559 --> 01:04:59,079
Because that ship sucks?

1235
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 4: Earlier morning or this morning?

1236
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:02,079
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1237
01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:02,639
Speaker 4: I like it.

1238
01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 3: I have a good trip. Did you?

1239
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,599
Speaker 1: Did you have communion flakes or something like that? Like

1240
01:05:06,639 --> 01:05:09,000
what I mean? I guess I just don't understand how

1241
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:11,639
this would benefit humanity giving somebody a little bit a

1242
01:05:11,639 --> 01:05:15,239
piece of unloving bread on your tongue there too. It's

1243
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,880
like really dry and chalky and everything like.

1244
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,519
Speaker 4: That, And that's what you were asking specifically.

1245
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,199
Speaker 2: Wait, so John, do you think that bread.

1246
01:05:23,559 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 4: To sustain a person for a day? And it can

1247
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,360
be any kind of bread you want?

1248
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:29,559
Speaker 2: It doesn't even Do you think that bread is God?

1249
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,239
Speaker 4: Like pop whatever you want?

1250
01:05:31,639 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: John? Do you think that bread is God? Well?

1251
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 3: I believe that.

1252
01:05:34,559 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 4: I believe the oppression of God. Yes, because a lie

1253
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,639
is all insumthancing everywhere. No, I don't know, it's not trolling.

1254
01:05:41,679 --> 01:05:45,079
That's the belief everything God kind of it's also not God,

1255
01:05:45,239 --> 01:05:45,719
but it is.

1256
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,239
Speaker 1: Well wait, how can it both be not God and

1257
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:49,679
God is exact same.

1258
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,199
Speaker 4: That bread is given to us as a blessing by God.

1259
01:05:52,239 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: Though bread is literally not a blessing by God. It's

1260
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,000
it's literally a product of like, uh, what is a

1261
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:03,559
yeast and water and then a chemical reaction involving carbon dioxide.

1262
01:06:03,639 --> 01:06:06,079
I think, right, it's been a while since I've looked up.

1263
01:06:06,039 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 2: The probably, but you are you are feeding him, feed

1264
01:06:09,079 --> 01:06:11,239
him bread if you will, but you are feeding.

1265
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: The Yeah, all right, John, John, I cannot, I cannot

1266
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,280
in good faith continue the conversation because I don't think

1267
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:20,960
that you're genuine.

1268
01:06:21,039 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 2: I've I've heard from others that he does this every

1269
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,280
show he does.

1270
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, all right, Sorry, John, I'm gonna just go

1271
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,480
ahead and drop you because I don't I mean, we're

1272
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,760
wasting minutes here on on, you know, our precious minutes

1273
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:33,880
on this show.

1274
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:34,719
Speaker 3: Uh.

1275
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: But anyways, okay, So, but I will say that I

1276
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:41,239
learned something new out of that call, and that's the

1277
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:42,559
uniqueness of that word.

1278
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:43,159
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1279
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I looked it up while he was talking

1280
01:06:46,639 --> 01:06:48,480
about it. I was like, yeah, it's only used in

1281
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,639
in those two places in the Gospels. Uh, maybe one

1282
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:57,159
more and in another outside work that derives from the Gospels.

1283
01:06:57,159 --> 01:06:59,119
So it's kind of like a really unique kind of

1284
01:06:59,119 --> 01:07:01,559
situation there. But I still don't see how changing that

1285
01:07:01,599 --> 01:07:04,840
one word to whatever he was wanted to mean would

1286
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,079
would indicate that, you know, everybody gets free bread. Also,

1287
01:07:08,239 --> 01:07:10,760
I can't eat free bread. Like I could eat a

1288
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:12,880
little bit of bread, but that's not enough to sustain

1289
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:14,039
me as like a human.

1290
01:07:14,079 --> 01:07:16,679
Speaker 2: So you're not getting into the Kingdom of Heaven then, sorry,

1291
01:07:16,719 --> 01:07:17,400
the Kingdom.

1292
01:07:17,119 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 3: Of all right.

1293
01:07:22,519 --> 01:07:27,239
Speaker 1: Uh So anyways, uh, next up is gonna be Hannah

1294
01:07:27,599 --> 01:07:33,400
calling in from uh misty servers. How how's it going there, Hannah?

1295
01:07:34,039 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 7: How about you pretty good?

1296
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: I do want to let you know that that we

1297
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,880
are kind of running short on time here, so we

1298
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,119
can't get into too deep of a conversation. But I

1299
01:07:42,159 --> 01:07:44,880
know that you're wanting to try to use quantum mechanics

1300
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,360
as evidence for God's existence, which I think Blitz is

1301
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,079
the perfect person to to interact with on this, So

1302
01:07:53,239 --> 01:07:55,719
go ahead, Hannah, make your make your argument here.

1303
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:56,599
Speaker 2: You hate me, don't you.

1304
01:07:56,639 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 7: John premise the premise that quantum mechanics is evidence for

1305
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,079
God's existence, I think I would put it in syllogistic reasoning,

1306
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:14,920
so premise one would be the non deterministic interpretations of

1307
01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:20,439
quantum mechanics is true. Be nondeterministic interpretations of quantum mechanics

1308
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:26,079
are evidence that naturalism is false, and see that if

1309
01:08:26,159 --> 01:08:28,840
naturalism is false, God is more likely. So that would

1310
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,359
be probably the three part syllogism for why I believe

1311
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:34,359
quantum mechanics is evidence for God's existence being more likely.

1312
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,199
Speaker 2: So I mean a you have I mean that I

1313
01:08:37,239 --> 01:08:39,600
have a problem with both. Well, I have a problem

1314
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:41,159
with all three premises, but we can attack these one

1315
01:08:41,159 --> 01:08:43,960
at a time. So suppose for a moment that we

1316
01:08:44,039 --> 01:08:46,239
grant that this is a valid syllogism, which I suppose

1317
01:08:46,279 --> 01:08:48,800
it is. How do you establish that the non deterministic

1318
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,119
interpretations of quant mechanics are.

1319
01:08:51,039 --> 01:08:57,199
Speaker 7: True because they appears with things like the double split

1320
01:08:57,239 --> 01:09:04,119
experiment and other things. To understandings are that basically interterminacy

1321
01:09:04,199 --> 01:09:08,000
is almost always found in experiments about the quantum level.

1322
01:09:08,239 --> 01:09:11,640
Speaker 2: So to be clear, the deterministic interpretations of quantum mechanics,

1323
01:09:12,039 --> 01:09:15,880
like the many worlds interpretation, would expect the same outcomes

1324
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:19,960
of measurement. So, for example, you would expect to see

1325
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:23,239
upon measuring upon placing a detector, say in front of

1326
01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:25,520
one of the slits you would expect to see a

1327
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,279
particle like behavior after performing your measurement, even in the

1328
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:31,720
deterministic interpretation known as the many worlds interpretation.

1329
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,159
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's the case.

1330
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 7: You would then say that the non deterministic theory is

1331
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:43,319
not proven by the experiments because the deterministic has the

1332
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:44,880
same predictive power.

1333
01:09:45,239 --> 01:09:47,560
Speaker 2: Yes, as far as I'm aware, there is not a

1334
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:52,760
single interpretation, with perhaps exception of the Bomian interpretation, that

1335
01:09:53,159 --> 01:09:56,000
has been falsified. And even that's a stretch saying that

1336
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:57,760
the Bomian interpretation has been falsified.

1337
01:09:58,159 --> 01:10:01,399
Speaker 7: So it's been proven false the Boman So.

1338
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,079
Speaker 2: It depends on who you believe. So some some would

1339
01:10:04,119 --> 01:10:07,439
say that the Boman interpretation hasn't been proven false, but

1340
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:09,880
perhaps is incompatible with quantum field theory. And we know

1341
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,159
that quantum field theory is a good description of reality,

1342
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:14,960
and so if that's the case, that the Boman interpretation

1343
01:10:15,039 --> 01:10:16,920
is incompatible with that, then you would come to the

1344
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,239
conclusion that if quantum field theory is true, then the

1345
01:10:19,279 --> 01:10:22,439
Boman interpretation is false. Others have argued that you can

1346
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:24,680
make it compatible, but that's not super compelling to a

1347
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:25,199
lot of people.

1348
01:10:25,359 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 7: Okay, And so would you say then that premise A

1349
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,159
that the nonotrumistic theory of quantum mechanics is true is false.

1350
01:10:31,239 --> 01:10:34,079
Speaker 2: I would say that it is unjustified. Now it might

1351
01:10:34,119 --> 01:10:38,640
be the case that the correct interpretation is you know,

1352
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,439
is uh nondeterministic, but we don't have any reason to

1353
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:44,319
accept that given the data we have.

1354
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, I guess it has to look more into it.

1355
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:49,640
But the reason I thought asks is because I thought

1356
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,600
that the fact that scientists can't find where a particle

1357
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,920
is on the quantum level when measuring it is generally

1358
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,800
interpreted as as as basically proof of the law of

1359
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,000
causalite not holding on the quantum level. But if that's

1360
01:11:03,039 --> 01:11:05,760
the case, then I would have to look into the

1361
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,920
more deterministic interpretations. But would you like to go into

1362
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,680
the second premise? Yeah, sure, the first premise would you

1363
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:15,159
like to.

1364
01:11:15,119 --> 01:11:18,399
Speaker 2: Just so, how do you figure that naturalism require reason

1365
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:19,800
believe to Well?

1366
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 7: Specifically the reason I think that the non Well, I

1367
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:27,199
don't think nationalism requires determinism because you can I believe

1368
01:11:27,239 --> 01:11:29,640
you can be naturalism belief in free will, even libertarian

1369
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,680
free will. But I do believe naturalism would be incompatible

1370
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:38,319
with nondeterminism of physical or material objects. And I believe

1371
01:11:38,359 --> 01:11:40,119
the reason for that is because of the fact that

1372
01:11:40,359 --> 01:11:44,319
on the quantum level, basically, if there's indeterminacy, this means

1373
01:11:44,319 --> 01:11:46,760
the law of causality doesn't hold, Whereas I believe if

1374
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,840
naturalism is true between the laws of Cazaldi would hold

1375
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,359
because naturalism, as I understand it, is the belief that

1376
01:11:52,399 --> 01:11:54,680
everything is bound by the laws of nature, and the

1377
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:59,359
laws of nature inherently operate by causality, and matter and

1378
01:11:59,359 --> 01:12:02,640
and physical physical existence would be mechanistic causality.

1379
01:12:03,199 --> 01:12:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so naturalism, as far as I understand it can absolutely.

1380
01:12:06,319 --> 01:12:08,520
I mean, if you if you interpret naturalism to be

1381
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,880
something like everything follows laws of nature, then perhaps that

1382
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:13,960
that's a fine Perhaps that's a fine definition. But there's

1383
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,560
no reason why you can't have statistical or like stochastic

1384
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,239
laws of nature where the law of nature is that

1385
01:12:21,079 --> 01:12:23,479
you have a one is is that you know you

1386
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,199
have some probability of measuring this outcome and some probability

1387
01:12:26,199 --> 01:12:29,159
of measuring that outcome. There's I don't see the incompatibility there.

1388
01:12:29,239 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 7: Well, if it's if physical reality or material reality, which

1389
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,840
is what the mechanics studies, not consciousness, and that I

1390
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,399
would say, you can definitely believe consciousness. Now is that

1391
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,239
reducible to physical or material reality? Which is why I

1392
01:12:42,239 --> 01:12:45,000
say naturalism is all quire determinism. But at least when

1393
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,600
we're talking about material or physical reality, if that's not

1394
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,760
bound by the law of causality, then how could any

1395
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,199
law of nature apply to it?

1396
01:12:52,279 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 3: Right?

1397
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:55,359
Speaker 7: If causality so is not does not apply to physical

1398
01:12:55,359 --> 01:12:58,079
and material reality, then what laws of nature are there?

1399
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:01,319
Speaker 2: So I don't think that laws of nature descriptive of causality.

1400
01:13:01,399 --> 01:13:03,319
In fact, the way that we typically talk about laws

1401
01:13:03,319 --> 01:13:05,199
of physics these days is we talk about them in

1402
01:13:05,319 --> 01:13:09,840
terms of like descriptive or descriptive descriptions of what actually happens.

1403
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,439
So you so a law of nature might be something like,

1404
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,119
when you have a mass here and you have another

1405
01:13:15,159 --> 01:13:19,239
mass there, we observe a force occurring, say for the

1406
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:21,800
you know the law of gravitation, if you will. But

1407
01:13:22,199 --> 01:13:24,800
that's just a descriptive statement. That's not a cause. That's

1408
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:27,479
not a statement about causality. It's not a statement about

1409
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:32,079
this causes that. It's a statement of these things occur simultaneously,

1410
01:13:32,119 --> 01:13:34,279
for example. And you could just as well have another

1411
01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:37,119
descriptive statement saying if you were to measure such and

1412
01:13:37,199 --> 01:13:39,600
such a thing at such and such a time. If

1413
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:41,560
you were to measure this over and over again, half

1414
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:42,880
the time you would get this and half the time

1415
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,319
you get that. That that's an equally good description. It's

1416
01:13:45,359 --> 01:13:47,520
just not as informative, but it's still a good description.

1417
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:51,279
Speaker 7: Okay, So but then what is the purpose of these

1418
01:13:51,319 --> 01:13:54,720
descriptive things if it's not demonstrating causal relationships would be

1419
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:55,279
my question?

1420
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,119
Speaker 3: Or or how exactly are the laws.

1421
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:02,039
Speaker 7: If they're just description, because minderstanding law implies that basically,

1422
01:14:02,079 --> 01:14:04,399
this is a principle that will occur, not just the

1423
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:06,279
description of what has already occurred.

1424
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:10,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, typically we take so when we're doing, you know,

1425
01:14:10,319 --> 01:14:13,439
any sort of scientific investigation, typically we take the universe

1426
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,920
to have the property of consistency, namely that things that

1427
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:20,119
have happened in the past will or the way things

1428
01:14:20,159 --> 01:14:22,000
are in the past will continue to be the way

1429
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,000
things are in the future. And so if you have

1430
01:14:24,079 --> 01:14:25,960
some sort of description of the way things happened in

1431
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:27,640
the past, then you can at least make some sort

1432
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:29,880
of prediction about the way things will likely happen in

1433
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:32,119
the future, or perhaps the way that things will definitely

1434
01:14:32,119 --> 01:14:34,079
happen in the future depending on what your laws look like.

1435
01:14:35,159 --> 01:14:37,640
But that doesn't imply any sort of causality. If you're

1436
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,279
asking what's the point of them, Well, the point of

1437
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:41,039
them is to be able to describe what will happen

1438
01:14:41,079 --> 01:14:43,560
in the future based off of what is happening now.

1439
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,680
But that's not causality. That's just you know, you have

1440
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,239
some information, you have some information now, and so you

1441
01:14:48,239 --> 01:14:49,880
can use that to figure out what will happen next.

1442
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,399
Speaker 7: Well, then then how do we know that something will

1443
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:57,079
happen in the future if we can't demonstrate a cause,

1444
01:14:57,079 --> 01:14:58,520
a relationships to lead it.

1445
01:14:58,399 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 6: To it happening its future? Is my question?

1446
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 7: Like, by what method do we gain knowledge that? Say,

1447
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,319
for example, the idea that the freezing point of water

1448
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:08,640
is this, and then in the future the future in

1449
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,079
point of water will still be this. If you can't

1450
01:15:11,079 --> 01:15:14,560
demonstrate a causal relationship between the temperature and the freezing

1451
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,600
of the water, how do if there's no cause or relationships,

1452
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:19,840
my question would be, then how do we notice future

1453
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:20,840
will resemble the past?

1454
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 2: Oh, that's an assumption built into the scientific process. It's

1455
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,520
not it's not something that we can prove. This is

1456
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,359
the problem of induction, right, But if you're doing science

1457
01:15:28,359 --> 01:15:30,239
you just assume that the future will be like the past.

1458
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:32,720
Speaker 7: Well fine, but then I just if it's not proven

1459
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:34,600
that I'm not saying it's false, but it's not. I

1460
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,520
would say. It's the same thing with God. Like if

1461
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:38,560
you don't believe in God because you don't believe there's

1462
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,960
evidence for him, then I would say because you'd say

1463
01:15:42,039 --> 01:15:44,840
it would be unjustified to believe in something cures no evidence.

1464
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:46,960
If there's no evidence that something will happen in the

1465
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:50,279
future that resembles the past, then you're also in justified

1466
01:15:50,279 --> 01:15:50,840
in believing that.

1467
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 3: If that makes sense.

1468
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 2: Well, look, I mean like it depends on what you

1469
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:58,000
take justification to be. You can take seemings as justification

1470
01:15:58,239 --> 01:16:01,279
that perhaps is a very weak version of of justification,

1471
01:16:01,399 --> 01:16:03,399
or you could just accept it axiomatically. I mean, look,

1472
01:16:03,399 --> 01:16:05,640
if you if you want to reject the principle of

1473
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:09,239
induction because you think that it's unjustifiable that if you're

1474
01:16:09,279 --> 01:16:12,600
taking like some foundationalist worldview, you could do that you

1475
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,600
would just live a pretty miserable and confused life.

1476
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:19,199
Speaker 7: Well then I would say I would accept it. Then

1477
01:16:19,359 --> 01:16:21,439
what I'm saying is, if you can you can basically

1478
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:25,560
say the law of induction, basically the principle of induction

1479
01:16:26,079 --> 01:16:30,520
is an axiomatic things, Then why can't I say God

1480
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:31,600
is an axiom in the same.

1481
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 2: Way you can? But then that doesn't give anybody else

1482
01:16:34,039 --> 01:16:35,239
justification to believe in it?

1483
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,359
Speaker 7: Right, Well, then why does anyone have justification and believing

1484
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:40,760
in induction as an axiom?

1485
01:16:41,119 --> 01:16:41,319
Speaker 3: Oh?

1486
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 2: I mean so my guess is probably because there's like

1487
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:49,279
some evolutionary, evolutionary reasons psychologically to be able to infer

1488
01:16:49,359 --> 01:16:51,800
from the past about the future. And so I would

1489
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:54,760
suspect that humans, being, you know, rational beings that are

1490
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:58,600
trying to survive, probably have a belief in induction that

1491
01:16:59,239 --> 01:17:01,680
you know, if the sun rose yesterday, it'll rise tomorrow,

1492
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,479
probably have that inbuilt in us. That's probably like a

1493
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,680
fundamental part of being human. Now, perhaps you could say

1494
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:09,479
that that's not rational and that we really that we

1495
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,039
should try to overcome this instinct that we have, But

1496
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:14,000
that's neither here nor there. I mean, you and I

1497
01:17:14,079 --> 01:17:17,399
both do agree that the future will likely be like

1498
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:18,319
the past, right.

1499
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's something like the sun or I tomorrow. Yeah,

1500
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:23,920
I would say say say that would that's example of

1501
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:29,119
a true statement or cause of patterns, and I believe

1502
01:17:29,159 --> 01:17:31,479
these pa well, yes, But the thing is, the reason

1503
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,279
I have for the justification for induction is that I

1504
01:17:34,319 --> 01:17:37,680
believe in God, and I believe God demonstrates an induction

1505
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,399
because if God exists, God can create laws of causality.

1506
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:43,600
And if God can create laws of causality, God can

1507
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:47,399
very causal relationships which will cause the sun to rise tomorrow.

1508
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,920
But if there is no God and then you have

1509
01:17:51,279 --> 01:17:56,800
basically a lack of causal relationships, then basically I don't

1510
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,199
know how you justify an induction then, because basically, if

1511
01:18:00,199 --> 01:18:03,720
God exists, even creeds coled relationships. If God doesn't exist

1512
01:18:03,279 --> 01:18:05,880
and you can't be certain of these pulse relationships, therefore

1513
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:09,000
induction would be unjustified. So basically what I'm saying is

1514
01:18:09,159 --> 01:18:12,159
I understand that it's a psychological thing for induction. My

1515
01:18:12,279 --> 01:18:15,520
question to you would be, why does everyone, anyone have

1516
01:18:15,319 --> 01:18:18,920
a good epistemic justification for believing in induction as opposed

1517
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,640
to God when neither of them you would you'd believe.

1518
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:23,359
Speaker 6: Have proof of them.

1519
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean it might be the case that

1520
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:30,800
there is no justification for this psychology that we have,

1521
01:18:31,079 --> 01:18:32,359
or it might be the case that that is a

1522
01:18:32,399 --> 01:18:34,760
feature of our universe and that's why we have that psychology.

1523
01:18:35,359 --> 01:18:39,279
The point is, is the kind of reasoning that we do,

1524
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:43,319
the kind of reasoning that we have just existing as beings,

1525
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,960
kind of requires induction. Like we're just really not capable

1526
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:50,760
of operating without it. It seems like we're totally fine

1527
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:53,520
to operate without any sort of beliefs about God. So

1528
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:55,560
it doesn't seem like that that's like a required way

1529
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:57,760
of thinking about the world in order for us to

1530
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,439
function in the societies that we live in. So I mean,

1531
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:04,399
just just pragmatically, it's there's a good justification for believing

1532
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:06,319
and induction, and there's not really a good justification for

1533
01:19:06,359 --> 01:19:08,079
believing in God, at least in the same sense. But

1534
01:19:08,119 --> 01:19:11,479
this is getting this is getting very philosophically, Harry. What

1535
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:13,920
I would say is that when we do physics, like

1536
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,039
when we genuinely do physics, when you write down equations,

1537
01:19:16,079 --> 01:19:18,039
when we analyze data, we're not looking for cause and

1538
01:19:18,039 --> 01:19:21,600
effect relationships. That hasn't been the case since like Newton's

1539
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:25,279
time or something like this. We're looking for descriptive relationships

1540
01:19:25,279 --> 01:19:28,880
between data points. Right, you might call them dependent and

1541
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:33,960
independent variables. But really, like at the fundamental layer of physics,

1542
01:19:34,119 --> 01:19:37,239
there's no distinction between dependent and independent variables, right, These

1543
01:19:37,239 --> 01:19:40,399
are just data points that are correlated, and you can't

1544
01:19:40,399 --> 01:19:43,319
really tell the difference between which one caused which one? Right,

1545
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:45,800
does the force? It does the mass cause the force,

1546
01:19:46,039 --> 01:19:49,479
even if they exist simultaneously. Well, it's hard to say.

1547
01:19:50,039 --> 01:19:53,119
Speaker 7: Okay, So basically you would say then that naturalism is

1548
01:19:53,159 --> 01:19:59,279
compatible with indeterminacy because naturalism is not naturalism or the

1549
01:19:59,319 --> 01:20:01,359
idea that everything operates. The coring to laws of nature

1550
01:20:01,399 --> 01:20:06,600
does not mean causal relationships, just dependent or independent variable relationships.

1551
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:10,079
Speaker 2: I would say that naturalism requires a consistent uh requires

1552
01:20:10,079 --> 01:20:13,439
a consistent description of correlation of like physical correlation.

1553
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,319
Speaker 7: Okay, so this, but basically the point is that naturalism

1554
01:20:17,399 --> 01:20:20,520
has now required these laws of nature to be causal relationships.

1555
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:24,319
So causal laws of nature, but just correlated laws of nature.

1556
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:27,279
Speaker 2: Yep. Now it's kind of a bare bones naturalism. And

1557
01:20:27,319 --> 01:20:29,760
you could say that there that you know, like objects

1558
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,359
have causal power, and then you can just say, oh, well,

1559
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:34,319
the causal power is inherent in the objects, and the

1560
01:20:34,399 --> 01:20:36,920
laws are describing that causal power. But it's not necessary

1561
01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:38,119
for naturalism.

1562
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 7: Okay, and so you would say yes, so you would,

1563
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,760
so you would adhere to some to like a conventionalist

1564
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:49,840
naturalism with laws of nature or conventional conventional correlations without causality.

1565
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,880
And you do not believe in determinism, or you you

1566
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:55,600
would you say you subscription to determinism.

1567
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 2: I'm a determinist, but I take that that's different from

1568
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:01,960
taking some view on causality. I'm a determinist in the

1569
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:05,199
sense that I think that the future is in some

1570
01:21:05,239 --> 01:21:07,479
sense always predictable given previous data.

1571
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:11,279
Speaker 7: Are you a determinist about the physical and material world?

1572
01:21:11,279 --> 01:21:13,279
Are you also a determinist about free will?

1573
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:17,199
Speaker 2: I'm some sort of compatiblist about free will. There's a

1574
01:21:17,239 --> 01:21:20,000
whole discussion to be had there, but I'm general like,

1575
01:21:20,039 --> 01:21:21,760
my general view is that I'm a physicalist, So I

1576
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:23,680
take that the mind is like a physical thing, or

1577
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:26,319
at least arises from physical things. But that's perhaps a

1578
01:21:26,399 --> 01:21:28,199
conversation for another time. I don't know how much time

1579
01:21:28,199 --> 01:21:28,439
we have.

1580
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, we are coming up, we still have.

1581
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:38,279
Speaker 7: To Okay, Yeah, I would just say to that that

1582
01:21:38,399 --> 01:21:41,239
perhaps I was just confused about what naturalism is socioated

1583
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:43,720
is I thought naturalism was believed that's the cause the

1584
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:45,880
laws of nature. But if if you can believe in

1585
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:49,399
naturalism without believing cause the laws of nature, then yeah,

1586
01:21:49,399 --> 01:21:52,039
I just must have had a misunderstanding, and then the

1587
01:21:52,119 --> 01:21:55,319
argument of quantuman determinacy would not would not be able

1588
01:21:55,399 --> 01:21:57,239
to non naturalism, therefore.

1589
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:57,960
Speaker 6: Not evidence for God.

1590
01:21:58,039 --> 01:21:59,800
Speaker 7: So if that's the case, then yeah, I guess there

1591
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:01,039
was a confusion on my part.

1592
01:22:01,199 --> 01:22:04,319
Speaker 2: So I think it's Hume that talks about the indeterminacy

1593
01:22:04,359 --> 01:22:07,079
of causalism or of cause out of a cause and

1594
01:22:07,119 --> 01:22:09,720
effect relationship. So that's sort of where this idea is

1595
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:12,960
stemming from. But yeah, I'll leave it at that, all.

1596
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,680
Speaker 1: Right, Hannah, did you get all of your questions like

1597
01:22:16,039 --> 01:22:17,520
answered for this? Yeah?

1598
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:19,439
Speaker 7: It was. It was a good toughing to you gentlemen.

1599
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:24,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, mostly Blitz. That's his area of expertise right here,

1600
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:28,159
at least more so than mine. So but I appreciate

1601
01:22:28,199 --> 01:22:29,239
you calling in there, Hannah.

1602
01:22:29,319 --> 01:22:30,720
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you, all right.

1603
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:31,279
Speaker 1: See you later.

1604
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:33,600
Speaker 2: Sorry about that. I know it's easy to get bogged

1605
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:35,439
on in philosophy, lingo.

1606
01:22:36,279 --> 01:22:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're perfectly fine. Hannah calls in all the time,

1607
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,079
so I'm glad that that you were able to really

1608
01:22:42,119 --> 01:22:46,399
interact on a on a level, that particular level with

1609
01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:49,880
them because they they call in all the time and

1610
01:22:50,039 --> 01:22:52,479
they want to get super specific about a lot of things.

1611
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:53,960
So I'm glad that they were able to do that

1612
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,600
with you. Yeah, all right, Next we have Georgie from

1613
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:02,359
Bulgaria today. Yeah, are you Georgie?

1614
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:05,039
Speaker 8: I'm doing very well, yead.

1615
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:06,920
Speaker 1: So what do you want to talk about today?

1616
01:23:07,199 --> 01:23:09,319
Speaker 8: Well, maybe you can give me a minute and a

1617
01:23:09,399 --> 01:23:12,439
half and I can make a pieces.

1618
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 1: Okay, sure, lay down whatever you want to.

1619
01:23:16,359 --> 01:23:21,680
Speaker 8: Well, we as eternal infinite awareness from a car perspective,

1620
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:26,640
one to experience anything like meaningful and this is why

1621
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:31,000
we have created physical reality because it provides an opportunity

1622
01:23:31,079 --> 01:23:35,359
to do just that. And I would say that existence

1623
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:40,199
is not subject to time. Time is a concept within existence. Okay,

1624
01:23:40,279 --> 01:23:41,800
we can converse.

1625
01:23:41,359 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 2: Now, So what does this have to do with God?

1626
01:23:47,399 --> 01:23:52,159
Speaker 8: Well, there are two or three main aspects of God,

1627
01:23:52,399 --> 01:23:56,640
but God in his sessence is pure existence and he

1628
01:23:58,239 --> 01:24:01,359
none existing but definitely yeah.

1629
01:24:01,279 --> 01:24:05,720
Speaker 2: Yes, God is pure existence. The universe is pre existence.

1630
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:07,359
Therefore the universe of God something like that.

1631
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:11,199
Speaker 8: God has the quality to exist and we are the

1632
01:24:11,279 --> 01:24:13,159
first step down from God.

1633
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 1: Georgie. Georgie Georgie, can you can you please enlighten us

1634
01:24:20,039 --> 01:24:22,760
as to how you know that God is defined that

1635
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,359
way or or that God has that attribute. How do

1636
01:24:25,399 --> 01:24:29,000
you know that other than just ad hocs saying that

1637
01:24:29,039 --> 01:24:31,960
he is? How can you prove that by definition?

1638
01:24:32,319 --> 01:24:37,399
Speaker 8: It's something like metaphysics. By definition, the one God is alone,

1639
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:39,479
so he doesn't have awareness.

1640
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:42,960
Speaker 1: Okay, that I don't see how. I don't understand how

1641
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:46,520
that proved, how that proves that God has the quality

1642
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:51,039
to exist. You're just saying that you're defining God that way,

1643
01:24:51,359 --> 01:24:55,399
and that's it, Like you're not actually substantiating why you

1644
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:58,800
would define him that way. Just and we've got a

1645
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:00,560
lot of dead error here. I'm not sure. Well, in

1646
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:04,119
Georgie's connection, Oh shit, we've got awareness. Did you know that, Blitz?

1647
01:25:04,159 --> 01:25:06,000
We have awareness? Therefore God.

1648
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,720
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. Therefore I don't have awareness, therefore

1649
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:10,720
there is no God.

1650
01:25:12,279 --> 01:25:17,399
Speaker 1: Well fuck, we just disprove Georgie's God there So, Georgie,

1651
01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:21,079
can you please substantiate for us that God like the

1652
01:25:21,119 --> 01:25:23,439
reason for this definition or do you have something else

1653
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:23,920
you want to ask?

1654
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:24,279
Speaker 3: Blitz?

1655
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:26,560
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say we had this, I had

1656
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:31,279
this exact conversation with him on Monday or something. Yeah,

1657
01:25:31,319 --> 01:25:34,039
and it basically went nowhere for twenty minutes. So if

1658
01:25:34,039 --> 01:25:36,439
there's another caller, I might suggest we move on.

1659
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:39,199
Speaker 1: Georgie is our last caller.

1660
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can have this conversation for twenty minutes.

1661
01:25:46,279 --> 01:25:49,439
Speaker 1: I'm not really interested in having the conversation for twenty minutes.

1662
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:52,680
I still would like Georgie to at least like you.

1663
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:55,439
Your starting out thing is defining God as having the

1664
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:59,920
quality to exist or something like that. Can you substand

1665
01:26:00,319 --> 01:26:02,039
that I'm just going to ask this one last time.

1666
01:26:02,359 --> 01:26:06,720
Can you substantiate that definition of God? Like what seems

1667
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,079
to indicate that God has that quality? Or are you

1668
01:26:10,319 --> 01:26:14,159
just ad hoc stating it as like a metaphysical necessity.

1669
01:26:14,399 --> 01:26:17,600
Speaker 8: It's a hard question. You want me to prove it

1670
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:19,880
or give prove for something.

1671
01:26:20,199 --> 01:26:23,399
Speaker 1: Other than just defining God that way. I don't know

1672
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,600
why you would say that God has the quality of

1673
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:32,039
existence or or given the ability to exist, like, I

1674
01:26:32,079 --> 01:26:36,039
don't understand what grounds that like and that that makes

1675
01:26:36,039 --> 01:26:38,479
it so that God has that quality. I'm just wanting

1676
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:40,560
you to connect the dots for me on this, because

1677
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,680
i'd other than just you ad hoc stating it. I

1678
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:46,359
don't see a reason for saying God has the quality

1679
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:47,119
to exist.

1680
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 8: Well, we have non existence, which doesn't exist and cannot

1681
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:57,039
be so existence cannot become non existence because of quality

1682
01:26:57,279 --> 01:26:58,119
of properties.

1683
01:26:59,159 --> 01:27:02,920
Speaker 1: Was he this apherent the other day? There? Blitz? Yeah, Okay,

1684
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:06,079
I'm sorry, Georgie. I'm not sure how we can continue

1685
01:27:06,279 --> 01:27:11,079
forward in this. The screener note says that you're claiming

1686
01:27:11,079 --> 01:27:14,560
that reality is our simulation. I don't know what that means.

1687
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:16,479
You mean, like a computer simulation.

1688
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,520
Speaker 8: We are infinite and eternal awareness, and we're the structure

1689
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,880
of existence. We are what makes up the one.

1690
01:27:23,920 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 1: Got so I think I remember I remember interacting with

1691
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:32,880
Georgie before. Uh. And I believe I did this last

1692
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,760
time too. And I'm wondering, Georgie, can you please parse

1693
01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:39,640
this for me? Tell me if you understand this particular thing.

1694
01:27:40,159 --> 01:27:44,600
Mythological truth is the ground of subtle phenomena. Does that

1695
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:47,439
make sense to you? I'm gonna say no, Okay, Georgie,

1696
01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:49,920
I'm so sorry. We can't have dead air like this.

1697
01:27:50,159 --> 01:27:51,680
This this is making conversation.

1698
01:27:52,199 --> 01:27:52,319
Speaker 3: Uh.

1699
01:27:52,359 --> 01:27:55,119
Speaker 1: And I guess I was just, you know, I guess

1700
01:27:55,199 --> 01:27:59,760
trolling at that point. With the wisdom of Peterson generator. Uh, Georgie,

1701
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:02,119
maybe call in uh when you have a better connection

1702
01:28:02,199 --> 01:28:04,119
next time, so that there's not such a long delay.

1703
01:28:04,199 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 2: I don't know if that was a connection issue.

1704
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be charitable, all right, Sorry Georgie, I'm

1705
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:13,680
just gonna have to go ahead and drop you because

1706
01:28:14,199 --> 01:28:18,439
you're not interacting really anyways. Uh, that's gonna be it

1707
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,000
for the show tonight. Yeah, with Georgie's last call, I

1708
01:28:23,039 --> 01:28:25,319
was trying to see I remember the last time Georgie

1709
01:28:25,359 --> 01:28:29,960
called in, uh that I interacted with him. I I

1710
01:28:30,079 --> 01:28:32,279
just started reading off Wisdom of Peterson and it blew

1711
01:28:32,319 --> 01:28:35,880
his mind. And that was That was a pretty big

1712
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:40,680
indicator there of of of Georgie just being sort of

1713
01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:46,079
a Jordan Peterson word solid kind of thing. Anyways, Uh, Blitz,

1714
01:28:46,119 --> 01:28:49,039
thank you so much for coming on tonight and interacting

1715
01:28:49,079 --> 01:28:52,239
with these callers. Uh and uh, you know, I'm sorry

1716
01:28:52,279 --> 01:28:55,079
we couldn't get more, you know, more calls in the

1717
01:28:55,199 --> 01:28:59,079
in the theology aspect of things, I guess, and just

1718
01:28:59,079 --> 01:29:01,760
the one troll. But anyways, thank you so much for

1719
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:02,199
coming on.

1720
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:04,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a delight. It's

1721
01:29:04,279 --> 01:29:05,560
still warm and uncomfortable though.

1722
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, still yeah, it's still warm and uncomfortable, all right,

1723
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:13,079
So uh, I guess that's gonna be it for our

1724
01:29:13,119 --> 01:29:15,640
show tonight. It's been a while since I've actually ran

1725
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:17,439
a show, so I'm not sure how we close this out,

1726
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:21,119
but I hope that everybody has an awesome weekend.

1727
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:28,000
Speaker 3: Glad sat.

1728
01:29:30,239 --> 01:29:46,159
Speaker 5: Step watch Talking Than Live Sundays at one pm Central.

1729
01:29:46,279 --> 01:29:49,279
Speaker 2: Visit tiny dot c c slash y t t H

1730
01:29:49,399 --> 01:29:51,720
and call into the show at five one two nine

1731
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,239
two four two, or connect to the show online at

1732
01:29:55,279 --> 01:29:57,800
tiny dot c c slash call th H