Speaker 1: It's nice side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2: Well, today was a really good day on the stock market,
Speaker 2: as I think all of you know, and there were
Speaker 2: a number of factors that I think caused this stock
Speaker 2: market to have a good day, and one of them
Speaker 2: was the decision last night to at least pause the
Speaker 2: long shoreman strike. The International Long Showman's Association. It's confusing,
Speaker 2: and I've tried to read as much as I could
Speaker 2: about it in advance of tonight's interview. But we have
Speaker 2: with us a labor expert. His name is Vinnie Vernuccio.
Speaker 2: He's the president and co founder of the Institute for
Speaker 2: the American Worker. I'm so glad, Vinnie that there's an
Speaker 2: Institute for the American Worker, because I've done nothing in
Speaker 2: my life except work. How are you.
Speaker 3: Tonight, I'm the same, I'm doing pretty well. Thank you
Speaker 3: for having me on, Dan.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. So let's talk about this strike. I
Speaker 2: picked up bits and pieces, tried to read as much
Speaker 2: as I could. So we have the East Coast, Gulf
Speaker 2: Coast ISLA, the International Long Showman's Association, and there's a
Speaker 2: West Coast Long Showman's Association. So let's get real basic here.
Speaker 2: Why do we have two long showmen's associations on each coast.
Speaker 2: I would think that the union would be smart to
Speaker 2: have joined together.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's one of the problems, and the
Speaker 3: fact that they monopolize the entire coast. Remember, unions are
Speaker 3: given an exemption from anti trust, so they can have
Speaker 3: a monopoly. And that is right. The forty five about
Speaker 3: roughly forty five thousand member Longshoreman Union essentially has a
Speaker 3: monopoly on the entire East Coast. So when they go
Speaker 3: on strike, which they did at the end of September,
Speaker 3: they literally can just shut down anything coming into those parts.
Speaker 3: And that's where you know, there's a lot of paddock
Speaker 3: of what was going to happen. Yeah, we heard rumors
Speaker 3: of the perishable foods were to be taken out, but
Speaker 3: you know it is a real issue.
Speaker 2: Well, I heard that people that was run just like
Speaker 2: in the days of COVID, there was a run on
Speaker 2: toilet paper at various supermarkets around the country. And I
Speaker 2: guess ninety of toilet paper in America is produced domestically
Speaker 2: and the other ten percent of produced in Canada. It's
Speaker 2: produced in Canada or Mexico which meant the last thing
Speaker 2: you need to I think, you know, you know, hoard
Speaker 2: is told maybe other things you want to hoard, but
Speaker 2: the long showman would not be involved into other So
Speaker 2: is the group on the West Coast they negotiate a
Speaker 2: separate contract? Is that? Is it the same?
Speaker 3: Did they negotiated a separate contract in the last couple
Speaker 3: of years. It's actually a little bit less than the
Speaker 3: tentative And do you want to stress the term tentative
Speaker 3: deal reached between the ports and the East Coast Longshoreman
Speaker 3: and that deal is set to to expire on January fifteenth. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so we will see what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what I'm saying is I don't see this
Speaker 2: strike is over. I think it has been suspended.
Speaker 3: Is suspended is exactly the right is exactly the right word.
Speaker 3: What they've done is they've come to a tentative deal
Speaker 3: on wages. But when the union went out on strike,
Speaker 3: the sports we're offering about fifty percent the union one
Speaker 3: is seventy seven percent increase over the next six years.
Speaker 3: They just compromised and they said that they'll agree to
Speaker 3: sixty two percent wage increase over the next six years.
Speaker 3: Now there's a couple really big sticking points.
Speaker 2: Still.
Speaker 4: One of the.
Speaker 3: Chief ones among them is automation, because the union is
Speaker 3: worried that it'll cost jobs. But once again, you know,
Speaker 3: US ports ranked pretty low compare it to others around
Speaker 3: the country. We're we're pretty bottom of the barrel when
Speaker 3: it comes to efficiency.
Speaker 2: So AI point, Vinny, you said around the country. I
Speaker 2: assume you mean around the world.
Speaker 3: Excuse me, around the world. Excuse me.
Speaker 2: Okay, So so let me come back. Let's get back
Speaker 2: to the numbers for a second. It's it's in effect
Speaker 2: the same union East Coast, West Coast, but they negotiate
Speaker 2: separate contracts. Is that all right?
Speaker 3: We are just we are just talking about the East
Speaker 3: Coast longshoremen.
Speaker 2: Now, oh no, no, no, I know that. No, no, no,
Speaker 2: I know that. But what I'm saying is, uh this
Speaker 2: for me, whenever I dive into something, I go all fundamental.
Speaker 2: So beer with me. So the people who are in
Speaker 2: the union in the East Coast of the long Showman
Speaker 2: and the long showmen of the West Coast, are they
Speaker 2: in the same union or is it two separate unions
Speaker 2: that represent two separate geographical there's commonality.
Speaker 3: I think what you want to look at is the
Speaker 3: collective bargaining agreement and those are two different collective bargaining agreement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that. I get that. So you have
Speaker 2: East Coast folks have been without us. Their collective bargaining
Speaker 2: agreement is expired, are about to expire. You said, I
Speaker 2: think the West Coast did a deal a couple of
Speaker 2: years ago. Right, that's cross Okay, So what happens is,
Speaker 2: obviously the East Coast wants to get a better deal
Speaker 2: than the West Coast. It's almost like when police and
Speaker 2: firefighters negotiate with the city New York, Chicago of Boston.
Speaker 2: Firefighters get their contract whatever it is, and the police said, well,
Speaker 2: we want to get at least as much as the
Speaker 2: firefighters and maybe more because our guys are out there,
Speaker 2: you know, duck and bullets. And then the firefighters come
Speaker 2: back and say, but yeah, but we're climbing ladders in
Speaker 2: the middle of winter at a fire. So they sort
Speaker 2: of kind of work off each other, which is fine, Okay,
Speaker 2: give me an idea. And again you're my expert. So
Speaker 2: if I'm asking you questions to which there are no answers,
Speaker 2: I apologize. I just I'm not I'm trying to understand this.
Speaker 2: What does a long shoreman here in Boston make? Roughly?
Speaker 2: Is it based on seniority or if we're doing the
Speaker 2: same job, I make the same money, do you know?
Speaker 3: So I don't have the exact figures for Boston, but
Speaker 3: I do have some of the figures that the Woman Mission,
Speaker 3: especially you know, a little south in your neighbor. And
Speaker 3: you know I don't want to get into a Red
Speaker 3: Sox Yankees rivalry here.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely no, no no. Why
Speaker 2: do you look? The cost of living might be more
Speaker 2: in New York than it is in Boston, which might
Speaker 2: be more than it is somewhere up up the coast
Speaker 2: or down the coast. So give me, give me a
Speaker 2: rough idea about what a long shoreman makes on the
Speaker 2: East Coast. Just give me a rod.
Speaker 3: Well, most are making most are making six figures, you know,
Speaker 3: you see you see more than half, according to this
Speaker 3: Waterfront Commission, made one hundred and fifty thousand or more. Uh,
Speaker 3: you saw about twenty percent making a quarter million or more.
Speaker 3: You see, you know, you know some of them making
Speaker 3: four hundred and fifty thousand and half a million. That
Speaker 3: would be president wow. Yeah, yeah. The well between sorry,
Speaker 3: go ahead.
Speaker 2: I'll get to him in a second. What I'm saying
Speaker 2: is the guys who are men and of the women
Speaker 2: who are making a lot, they're working a lot of
Speaker 2: overtime I assume.
Speaker 3: Okay, they're saying they worked about, yeah, one hundred hours
Speaker 3: a week. Now. There's also other provisions in there, such
Speaker 3: as something called container royalties, which you know, there's been
Speaker 3: a lot of documentation that you know, a lot of
Speaker 3: the longshoremen are doing you know, no show or little
Speaker 3: show jobs because of the collective barg agreement. And once again,
Speaker 3: that was a compromise in lieu of you know, having
Speaker 3: a little bit more automation. So those are called container royalties.
Speaker 3: So you know, one hundred hours may not be you know,
Speaker 3: one hundred hours is actually on the job working.
Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough. My guest is an expert, uh and
Speaker 2: he's the president basically, he's a labor expert, president and
Speaker 2: co founder of the Institute for the American Worker. I'm
Speaker 2: stunned that the salaries are that high, and I'm stunned
Speaker 2: at the fact that it sounds like the median salary is,
Speaker 2: you know, about one hundred and fifty k. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's that's a that's a pretty good job most people would.
Speaker 2: Now if we have a we're going to get into
Speaker 2: the raise that's being contemplated. You mentioned it was like
Speaker 2: sixty two percent or whatever you you're going to If
Speaker 2: you're making one hundred and fifty, that's going to be
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand the first year seventeen thousand, the next year nineteenth.
Speaker 2: You're going to all of a sudden, that's going to
Speaker 2: raise that number. We'll get to all of that. If
Speaker 2: any of you have questions about this this strike, which
Speaker 2: again now is suspended, feel free to join the conversation.
Speaker 2: Six one seven, two five for ten thirty six one
Speaker 2: seven nine ten thirty. As I've often said, there's no
Speaker 2: dumb question. The only dumb questions are the ones that
Speaker 2: you're afraid to ask. It sounds to me like this
Speaker 2: is a very well compensated job. I'm sure that there's
Speaker 2: a history to it. I'm sure that these have been
Speaker 2: a hard won collective bargaining agreements that have been built
Speaker 2: up over time. I do when we get back, I
Speaker 2: want to find out what the head of the union makes,
Speaker 2: because I've seen some pictures an aerial shot of his home.
Speaker 2: I think it's out in Los Angeles. It's a pretty nice,
Speaker 2: nice place, at least from the year. We'll talk with
Speaker 2: my guest Vinnie Vernuccio right after the break here on Nightside.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray Mine from the window World
Speaker 1: night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: My guest is labor expert Vinnie Vernuccio, president and co
Speaker 2: founder of the Institute of the American Worker. Okay, you
Speaker 2: mentioned the president of the long Shoreman's Union, Harold Daggett.
Speaker 2: Is he both coast in West coast?
Speaker 3: He is East coast? Yeah, he is making and I
Speaker 3: know we were talking salary, and you know he lives
Speaker 3: in New Jersey. You know, he does have a nice home.
Speaker 3: He does have a nice boat, and he's clearing between
Speaker 3: the national union and the and a president emeritus status
Speaker 3: of a local union bout nine just under nine hundred
Speaker 3: thousand a year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see. His salary is seven twenty eight with
Speaker 2: the Longshoreman's Union and he has a pension of one
Speaker 2: seventy three. He owns a seventy six foot yacht. I
Speaker 2: haven't gotten a yacht yet. I assume Vinnie, you probably
Speaker 2: don't have a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 3: I hope I would love a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 3: If you can hook me up with, you know, a
Speaker 3: job like that, I'd be very grateful. So I can
Speaker 3: afford a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, obviously the dudes must be pretty substantial to
Speaker 2: pay this gentleman that amount of money. So any union
Speaker 2: head is looking to get the best deal for the union.
Speaker 2: That's understandable. But let's if you're telling me the average
Speaker 2: long showman on the East Coast and there are forty
Speaker 2: five thousand of them are making a buck and a
Speaker 2: half one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and that the
Speaker 2: tentative agreement, which may eventually be the final agreement, is
Speaker 2: sixty percent sixty two percent. I think you said over
Speaker 2: six years. Correct me if I'm wrong here. But if
Speaker 2: you're making one fifty and you get a ten percent
Speaker 2: increase in the first year, now you're making what one's
Speaker 2: sixty five? And now if you get.
Speaker 3: Out, if you break it down, yeah, good, go ahead, No, no,
Speaker 3: go ahead, I think I remember if this is all
Speaker 3: about the overtime, but if you break it down hourly,
Speaker 3: it's about thirty nine right now, and then going up
Speaker 3: basically about four dollars an hour for the next six years.
Speaker 3: But you know, with the overtime of one hundred hour weeks,
Speaker 3: that's when those numbers really start to add up.
Speaker 2: Right. But even one of sayings, even for the for
Speaker 2: the average worker, it's going to be a tremendous increase.
Speaker 2: I work in a business here. I don't think we've
Speaker 2: seen a contract like that, at least in my career,
Speaker 2: which goes back a long, long way. What that means,
Speaker 2: obviously is that this is great for the for the
Speaker 2: forty five thousand member Long Showman Union, but it's going
Speaker 2: to certainly add to inflation dramatically because all of these
Speaker 2: businesses are going to pass those cross along. Correct.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, here's the thing, you know. You know
Speaker 3: we're talking about salaries. You know, if they deserve it,
Speaker 3: they deserve it. A they're working hard, they're working hard.
Speaker 3: The problem is that the law is skewed so that
Speaker 3: you know that that the long Shortman for the East Coast,
Speaker 3: they have monopoly on the entire East Coast. That's granted
Speaker 3: to him by law. There's other things in the law. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there's other things in the law that you know, do
Speaker 3: provide some safeguards, you know. Unfortunately, the President did not
Speaker 3: exercise his ability and really didn't show his leadership and
Speaker 3: that he frankly didn't believe in the law. This has
Speaker 3: been called the Taft Hartley Act, which would allow the
Speaker 3: president to come in at the starting to drag out
Speaker 3: and say all right, no, you guys got to cool
Speaker 3: off for about eighty days and come back to work
Speaker 3: while we figure this out. You know, Biden said he
Speaker 3: wasn't going to do.
Speaker 2: That, so he didn't impose He didn't impose Taft Haartly,
Speaker 2: but he did get the equivalent of Taft Hartly because
Speaker 2: they are they have suspended the work shoppage or the strike,
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, until January fifteenth, So
Speaker 2: Biden would say. President Biden would say, hey, I didn't
Speaker 2: have to invoke Taft Haartly, but I got in effect
Speaker 2: Taft Hartley, right or wrong.
Speaker 3: That's right, and we'll see what happens in January.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, the way I look at
Speaker 2: it is that this would have annored to the detriment
Speaker 2: of the incumbent White House because if all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: by mid October, now things on store shelves were disappearing
Speaker 2: not because of hoarding, but because they were not being resupplied.
Speaker 2: Prices would would have gone up. So is there a
Speaker 2: political decision involved in this by any party? And I
Speaker 2: assumed that the White House probably job owned this a
Speaker 2: little bit by saying they would not invoke TAFT Hartly,
Speaker 2: I assumed that put pressure on the owners of the
Speaker 2: companies to come to a deal or at least a tenant.
Speaker 2: How do I read that wrong?
Speaker 3: No, you're reading it right. And it wasn't just putting uh,
Speaker 3: you know, pressure by not invoking TAFT. Partly, they were
Speaker 3: definitely putting pressure on the owners to raise those wages.
Speaker 3: And we'll see what happen. Especially, I mean, the real
Speaker 3: forty issue here is the automation, which has not been
Speaker 3: resolved yet. That's another reason why you excuse my misspeak
Speaker 3: before that the US ports are lagging behind much of
Speaker 3: the rest of the world, and that's in very large
Speaker 3: part due to these collective bargaining bits. I mean, one
Speaker 3: of the main impetuses behind the strike was, you know,
Speaker 3: the the gates and I'm not talking about you know,
Speaker 3: some shipping term or crate or anything o. You know,
Speaker 3: literally gate opening, automation, pressing a button to open a
Speaker 3: gate as opposed to doing that manually. So that's one
Speaker 3: of the main things that the logshart men are are
Speaker 3: flighting against it. They're using examples such as well, look
Speaker 3: at easy paths and the total operators that are put
Speaker 3: out of work. I mean, I don't know, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, driving up there. I know easy pass at
Speaker 3: least for me, has you know, helped a lot. It
Speaker 3: helps reduce congestion, it helps reduce pollution, and I say
Speaker 3: it's a good thing. And frankly, it's created job, especially
Speaker 3: the administrative jobs, get people out of non climate controlled
Speaker 3: toll booths. But unfortunately they.
Speaker 2: Let me jump in on this, and I happen to
Speaker 2: agree with you totally. I'm not a huge fan of automation.
Speaker 2: I'm one of those guys who in the when I
Speaker 2: go to the grocery store, I make it very clear
Speaker 2: I don't want to go through the self checkout line
Speaker 2: because I want to save the jobs of the people
Speaker 2: who are working the cash registers. Now you may say
Speaker 2: that I'm kind of old fashioned, but those folks are making,
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen bucks an hour, and they're gonna if
Speaker 2: everybody had plus. When I do the self checkout. I
Speaker 2: don't get a break in the price. I'm sitting there
Speaker 2: and if I make a mistake that you know, it's
Speaker 2: like I'm doing the job of a cashier. And it's
Speaker 2: like if I go buy a Christmas tree and buy
Speaker 2: a tall Christmas tree, I don't want to have to
Speaker 2: carry the Christmas tree to my car. You know, I
Speaker 2: would assume that part of the serve. You know what
Speaker 2: I'm trying to say. I mean, you know, if I
Speaker 2: buy a washing machine at home depot or a refrigerator,
Speaker 2: I do someone don't want someone to give me a
Speaker 2: dolly and say, well, here's your refrigerator, take it out
Speaker 2: of the car. I mean, you know, if you get
Speaker 2: my drift. But if you're saying that we got to
Speaker 2: keep a guy on for one hundred thousand dollars, who
Speaker 2: every time a truck comes up, he pushes a button
Speaker 2: as opposed to automating it. Look, everybody knows you're going
Speaker 2: to a parking garage these days. You if you have
Speaker 2: a garage passion, you tap the screen and the gate
Speaker 2: opens up. That's the way it works. There's no not
Speaker 2: someone there. It can be frustrating for people if you're
Speaker 2: at a garage that one of the machines malfunctions on
Speaker 2: and nobody can back up, and you're trying to get
Speaker 2: home at ten o'clock after a player or show. But
Speaker 2: what is your sense will happen on January fifteenth? Do
Speaker 2: you think that an enough blood has been shed here
Speaker 2: and enough words have been spoken that they will come
Speaker 2: to an agreement, or do you think we might be
Speaker 2: right back on January fifteenth where we were yesterday on
Speaker 2: August third, on October third?
Speaker 3: You know, I hope they have an agreement. I hope
Speaker 3: that it happens well before January fifteenth, that we're not
Speaker 3: coming down to the wire here that we don't see
Speaker 3: the strike, we don't see empty shelves. And remember, you know,
Speaker 3: especially now with the hurricane, and you had Senator Tim
Speaker 3: Scott saying, you guys can't go on strike, but they
Speaker 3: did anyway because of the relief. Thankfully that's suspended. But
Speaker 3: as far as January fifteenth, you know, I hope it
Speaker 3: doesn't happen. I don't know if the election in November
Speaker 3: is going to affect that one way or the other,
Speaker 3: but you know, the hope is that they do come
Speaker 3: to an agreement, they come into an agreement that helps
Speaker 3: the long shoreman but also allows for port efficiency and
Speaker 3: you know, we can you know, make sure that you
Speaker 3: know this type of monopoly that is given to long
Speaker 3: shoreman doesn't cripple the economy like it has the ability
Speaker 3: to do.
Speaker 2: Right now, Last question, and we got to go to
Speaker 2: a newscast and we'll take some phone calls on the
Speaker 2: other side. Last question, you talked about how there's more
Speaker 2: automation imports. I assume you mentioned in Europe and other
Speaker 2: parts of the world. What other than let's say some
Speaker 2: guy sitting there pressing a button so the gate opens.
Speaker 2: He's in a guardhouse, hopefully nice and warm with some
Speaker 2: you know, work a time with footwarmers or something like that.
Speaker 2: What sort of automation are they fighting against. I assume
Speaker 2: that when these huge vehicles come off, they're not being
Speaker 2: lifted up by the long shoreman that's coming off. With
Speaker 2: the cranes. I assume there's somebody who's operating a crane.
Speaker 2: They would eliminate those crane operators and have that done robotically.
Speaker 2: Is that what they're talking about?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not an expert in exactly how the
Speaker 3: ports operate, but I will tell you that there has
Speaker 3: been studies like RODERDAE, for instance, is one of the
Speaker 3: most automated forms in the country, and you know, there's
Speaker 3: been studies showing that that actually did not significantly affect
Speaker 3: increased job losses. There was a study out of California,
Speaker 3: Berkeley specifically, that showed that when Los Angeles adopted some automation,
Speaker 3: paid hours for the union members actually grew by over
Speaker 3: eleven percent. And I mean you can even look to
Speaker 3: other industries Kaiser Permanente, when they switched from paper to
Speaker 3: digital medical records, they retrained the staff, the people that
Speaker 3: were the truckers that were carrying those records, the librarians,
Speaker 3: and you really did not see many job losses because
Speaker 3: of the retrading and reassign it. So when you're talking
Speaker 3: about automation, yeah, it could be scary. It's changed. Change
Speaker 3: is scary, but it's not like a lot of people
Speaker 3: are going out on the street because of it. It's
Speaker 3: changing roles and increasing efficiency.
Speaker 2: All right, My guest is Vinny Vernuccio, president and co
Speaker 2: founder of the Institute for the American Worker. We'll get
Speaker 2: some phone calls. Feel free to join the conversation if
Speaker 2: you have a strong thought on this. Either way, you're welcome.
Speaker 2: If you want to ask a question, you're welcome. It's
Speaker 2: one of the It is a huge issue, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: a huge issue because I like a lot of strikes.
Speaker 2: If there's a teacher's union strike in a city, if
Speaker 2: you don't live in that city, it's probably not going
Speaker 2: to affect you a whole lot. It's going to have
Speaker 2: a tremendous impact on the people who live in that
Speaker 2: city and who have children in the school system. But
Speaker 2: a strike by longshoreman would affect each and every one
Speaker 2: of us. A prolonged strike by long shoreman would really
Speaker 2: impact a lot of us, virtually everybody in some form
Speaker 2: of fashion. That's why this issue is so important. If
Speaker 2: you'd like to join the conversation and ask my guest
Speaker 2: a question or or pose an argument, we can do
Speaker 2: it politely, as we always do. One night Side six
Speaker 2: one seven, two, five, four ten thirty six seven, one,
Speaker 2: ten thirty will get you on and we'll take a
Speaker 2: quick break for the news and be back right after this.
Speaker 2: My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 1: You're on n Side with Dan Ray on w BZ,
Speaker 1: Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Nicole, And that's an interesting side story here.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to ask Vernuccio about the Boston hotel strike,
Speaker 2: but that would have quite an impact here in Boston, Vinnie.
Speaker 2: I was just reading today that Harold Daggett, who's the
Speaker 2: head of the union, that has been head of the union,
Speaker 2: I guess for quite a while, has always had good
Speaker 2: relations with Joe Biden, President Biden, and as a matter
Speaker 2: of fact, endorsed Biden in twenty twenty uh and said some,
Speaker 2: you know, fairly tough things about Donald Trump. He he
Speaker 2: said positive things about Joe Biden, but then he he's
Speaker 2: a parent on he met with Trump, and he has
Speaker 2: he has he's he kind of plays both both sides
Speaker 2: of the political aisle here, so he's he sounds like
Speaker 2: he's functioning in the best interests of his membership. That's
Speaker 2: very that's very very for certain, very effective union leader,
Speaker 2: if I might, if I if I read this correctly.
Speaker 3: Oh, it sounds like you know, Sean O'Brien with the
Speaker 3: Teamsters that you know obviously met what trum spoke at
Speaker 3: the Republican National Convention. You know, the only problem there,
Speaker 3: and you know, I guess, well, you know, back away
Speaker 3: from the long strum and talk about, you know, unions
Speaker 3: and union leadership in general, is that you know, despite
Speaker 3: some lip service and you know, to their credit actually
Speaker 3: reaching out, uh, you know, they do have views that
Speaker 3: are opposite to a lot of their members. And you know,
Speaker 3: looking specifically at the Teamsters, you see that almost sixty
Speaker 3: percent of surveyed Teamster members support the pre support President Trump.
Speaker 3: And you know, you see the former president over overpolling
Speaker 3: and doing much better than typical Republicans with union members
Speaker 3: across the country, except that the union leadership still doubles
Speaker 3: down and they usually go for Democrats. And you saw
Speaker 3: that with a non endorsement with the Teamsters, where they
Speaker 3: had this you know, crazy double standard where it was, well,
Speaker 3: you know Vice President Harris did not get a majority
Speaker 3: of the votes, so we can endorse her, but President,
Speaker 3: former President Trump did not get universal support, so we
Speaker 3: can't endorse him.
Speaker 2: No, I get that. And also today the International Association
Speaker 2: of Firefighters, which has always been a go to union
Speaker 2: for the Democratic presidential nominee, they took the same position
Speaker 2: as the Teamsters and that they would not issue an endorsement. Now,
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, the Long Showman and specifically the head
Speaker 2: of the union. This fellow named Daggett endorsed President Biden.
Speaker 2: They have a long standing I guess friendship and relationship,
Speaker 2: but now he's apparently well. For example, the ISLA endorsed,
Speaker 2: according to This Week magazine, Biden's campaign for the White House.
Speaker 2: This is in twenty twenty, and the quote said Daggett said,
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's friendship and support of the ISLEA goes back
Speaker 2: decades from his time as a US Senator from Delaware.
Speaker 2: Daggett added that the Democrat was quote the best candidate
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty to defeat Donald Trump in return honored
Speaker 2: dignity and prosperity to the United States of America. Subsequently
Speaker 2: that he's met with Trump and apparently they have an
Speaker 2: interesting relationship. Let's grab a phone call here, see we
Speaker 2: get the phone line started a little bit. Let me
Speaker 2: go to Jim in New York. H Jim, welcome your
Speaker 2: first this hour with Vinnie Ernuccio, a labor expert co
Speaker 2: founder of the Institute for the American Worker.
Speaker 4: Go right ahead, Jim, Hey guys, thanks, Yeah. I just
Speaker 4: had a couple of comments. Number one, I mean I
Speaker 4: used to be a union member down in New York City.
Speaker 4: I live in upstate New York for like the last
Speaker 4: thirty seven years, and we had a thing in the
Speaker 4: Operating Engineers Construction Union Local I was in that regarded
Speaker 4: reducing force. I do HVAC, and automation was already a
Speaker 4: big thing then and I still do it, and it's
Speaker 4: just gone on steroids on that now where the union
Speaker 4: had to acknowledge that, you know, you're not going to
Speaker 4: have like the nineteen forties stuff where guys had to
Speaker 4: make adjustments manually in real time due to shifting loads.
Speaker 4: This could all be all automated, and it was. And
Speaker 4: you know, you can run a build a high rise
Speaker 4: building in Manhattan now on half the crew. Like when
Speaker 4: I was down there, you'd have an eight man crew
Speaker 4: and say a forty five story building. That building can
Speaker 4: be run on five or four guys now. So I
Speaker 4: don't see how this union can resist that juggernaut, you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, you're almost like a Luddite, like, you know,
Speaker 4: you're not going to like understand that, you know. I
Speaker 4: mean it's almost like you know, when the automobile supplic
Speaker 4: you know, surpassed or supplanted the horse, you know, I
Speaker 4: mean if it's all over the world, which is what
Speaker 4: I'm hearing from you guys, and I've read it elsewhere Europe,
Speaker 4: you know, all over Asia, the West coast of North America.
Speaker 4: I just think it's a matter of time before they
Speaker 4: have to accede and say, hey, you know, we gotta
Speaker 4: step in line with that. What do you think.
Speaker 2: Let's let me get Vinnie's reaction, and then I have
Speaker 2: a comment that I want to make. Go ahead, Vinnie. Sure.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you see the rest of the
Speaker 3: world automating. You see the efficiencies, but you also see that,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a lot of people being retrained, so
Speaker 3: you know it may not be as stark as far
Speaker 3: as the job losses go. And I you know, talked
Speaker 3: about a couple of those studies that you know came
Speaker 3: out of I read those. You know, the AP just
Speaker 3: sided those and you know between the University of California
Speaker 3: and then some of the other or was the Kaiser
Speaker 3: Permanente example. But yeah, I mean, you know, you're going
Speaker 3: to get to the point where you can't have people
Speaker 3: with clipboards, you know, checking off containers. Things are going
Speaker 3: to modernize, and you know.
Speaker 4: That easy pass and I mean, you know the mass Pike.
Speaker 4: I mean, I go over to Eastern mass in New
Speaker 4: Hampshire main every year, and we were annoyed over here,
Speaker 4: like when's the New York State Thruway going to get
Speaker 4: in line with the Mass Pike because you guys had
Speaker 4: easy pass ahead of us. And then finally they did,
Speaker 4: but it was fought because you know, look, I'm not like,
Speaker 4: you know, downgrading people, but I mean, you know, we
Speaker 4: can't be collecting nickels and quarters at toll boots anymore.
Speaker 4: It makes no sense. And they finally did automate the
Speaker 4: entire New York State Thruway, so, you know, several years
Speaker 4: after the mass Pike. So I see that coming. You know,
Speaker 4: with this, you know, it's like West host East Coast.
Speaker 4: You guys are gonna maybe you'll get the contract you
Speaker 4: want and maybe you'll delay it. But I don't see
Speaker 4: it as inevitable, or I see it as inevitable that's
Speaker 4: gonna happen at some point in the future.
Speaker 2: Okay, here's my question. Let me jump in here, and again,
Speaker 2: Vinnie knows more about this than I do, and you
Speaker 2: very well may know more about this than I do,
Speaker 2: but I believe and I've just learned this from conversations
Speaker 2: with friends of mine, that it's a lot easier to
Speaker 2: become a long shoreman to get into the union. If
Speaker 2: your daddy or uncle was a long shoreman.
Speaker 4: Well, that's how I got into the operating engineers or
Speaker 4: in the early eighties because of my post.
Speaker 2: So no, no, no. So the point that I'm trying
Speaker 2: to make is that unlike let us say, the teachers' unions,
Speaker 2: which are very strong in Massachusetts, and the teachers' unions
Speaker 2: are sort of fighting for themselves, we have the school
Speaker 2: population is decreasing just because the birth rate is decreasing.
Speaker 2: Its decreasing, but they want to maintain the jobs. The
Speaker 2: long shoremen probably are interested in maintaining the jobs so
Speaker 2: that their progeny can come on and clear.
Speaker 4: It these jobs.
Speaker 2: Okay, So my point is does that make it? Does
Speaker 2: that make it? Here's my question. Agreeing to the to
Speaker 2: the premise, does that make it more difficult for the
Speaker 2: the owners, the operators, whatever you want to call them,
Speaker 2: to convince this union to do something that is inevitable,
Speaker 2: maybe because it affects not just them in the short term,
Speaker 2: but it affects their kids and their grand their grandsons
Speaker 2: or granddaughters now as well maybe and their grandchildren going forward.
Speaker 2: They look at this long shoreman's position in some cases
Speaker 2: as a family business.
Speaker 4: Well that's true. I mean, or is Anny gonna jump in?
Speaker 2: But why don't you answer first and then we'll get
Speaker 2: Vinnie go ahead?
Speaker 4: Okay. I remember it was very nepotistic forty five years
Speaker 4: ago when I got in like they you know, some
Speaker 4: of these unions, and they were mobbed up then. I
Speaker 4: don't know that the long shoremen and are now, but
Speaker 4: I you know, I'm thinking back on the water.
Speaker 2: If it was a period. There was a period. As
Speaker 2: a matter of fact, Yes, yes.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, we were mobbed up and it was like,
Speaker 4: you know, I remember one guy wanted to get into
Speaker 4: another union. They said you got to have three dead
Speaker 4: relatives to get in here. You know, it's just like ridiculous.
Speaker 4: And I think that's faded away, but I but back then, yes,
Speaker 4: you know, you used to have to have a hook.
Speaker 4: They called it a hook.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me get let me get Vinnie in here. Vinnie.
Speaker 2: I'm just raising this issue because there's more at stake
Speaker 2: for these current the current union members. They're not only
Speaker 2: about thinking about their salary this year, their salary next year,
Speaker 2: the salary five or ten years from now, but they're
Speaker 2: thinking about their kids' salaries. Yeah, thirty five, forty years
Speaker 2: from now.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean the main issue here is that there's
Speaker 3: zero competition because, like you said, you know, you've got
Speaker 3: the West Coast longshoreman, you've got the East Coast long showmen.
Speaker 3: They've got the monopoly. So really, if you want to
Speaker 3: get into this country, I mean, the less we're going
Speaker 3: to start shipping everything to Mexico and then driving it
Speaker 3: up there or taking a rail up there. There really
Speaker 3: is no other choice. So, you know, aside from the
Speaker 3: family ties or the nepotism or the things that we're
Speaker 3: talking about, you know, when you look at the way
Speaker 3: it's structured and the problems that the law allows it
Speaker 3: to have, and the fact that they're under this specific
Speaker 3: law versus let's say, a law that applies to the
Speaker 3: railroads and airlines, which you know we could talk about
Speaker 3: that have different provisions to prevent these type of strikes.
Speaker 3: You know, that really is the problem. So you know, yes,
Speaker 3: you could look, you know, is there family relationships, are
Speaker 3: they're looking to hand down the jobs to you know,
Speaker 3: the next generation things like that, but you know, stepping
Speaker 3: back and what can actually be done. That's when you
Speaker 3: look at all, Right, well, maybe we should reassess this monopoly,
Speaker 3: or maybe we should reassess well, the longshoreman h you know,
Speaker 3: should be considered the same as let's say those hotel workers,
Speaker 3: or because of the stranglehold that they can put on
Speaker 3: the economy, they should be considered like the railroad or
Speaker 3: the airlines, which are in a special law called the
Speaker 3: Railway Act specifically, so they can't put a chokehold on
Speaker 3: the economy.
Speaker 2: Right, you have to you have to find the will
Speaker 2: in Congress to change the law. And I don't think
Speaker 2: you're going to find that will in Congress at this
Speaker 2: point anyway. Gentlemen, heyk King with us here, Vinnie Bernuccio,
Speaker 2: and I want to thank Jim in New York. Jim,
Speaker 2: have you called me for Is this your first time calling?
Speaker 4: The last time I talked was three years ago, But
Speaker 4: I should call more frequently.
Speaker 2: Well, I'd appreciate it because you're a great caller.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Thank you, Dan, thank you Vinny.
Speaker 2: Okay, welcome, thanks for listening to us up in New York.
Speaker 2: Over in New York, six four thirty, six thirty. I
Speaker 2: got wide open lines here. I think it's a fascinating topic.
Speaker 2: Is a labor expert, co founder of the Institute for
Speaker 2: the American Worker, Vinnie Ernuccio. Let's keep at it. If
Speaker 2: you've got a question, you want to make a comment.
Speaker 2: I was hoping here from some long shoremen during this
Speaker 2: segment tonight. You're more than welcome to call. We're going
Speaker 2: to wrap it at ten o'clock. We got about ten
Speaker 2: more minutes left. Feel free to take advantage of it.
Speaker 2: We are going to talk about the impact of Hurricane Helene.
Speaker 2: We have Massachusetts what's called the Massachusetts Task Force one,
Speaker 2: an urban search and rescue team in North Carolina tonight,
Speaker 2: and we're going to talk to a member of that
Speaker 2: group during next hour. And I'm also going to raise
Speaker 2: some questions about does this give you some pause to
Speaker 2: decide whether or not you might move to that part
Speaker 2: of the country. We get to all of that, but
Speaker 2: let's continue to talk about the long Showman's Union. Now.
Speaker 2: I know if they had gone on strike and people
Speaker 2: had found that they couldn't get something at the stores
Speaker 2: that they want, the phone lines would be lit up.
Speaker 2: Feel free. You got the numbers coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: My guess is Vinnie Bernuccio. He's the president of the
Speaker 2: Institute for the American Worker. Vinnie just getting away from
Speaker 2: the longshoreman impass for the moment. Just a quick question,
Speaker 2: why is it do you think that unions seem to
Speaker 2: be losing, if not control over their membership, at least
Speaker 2: losing the direction of their membership. I mean, there was
Speaker 2: a time when I was your age, and I'm a
Speaker 2: lot older than you are, when you could count that
Speaker 2: a union endorsement really had an impact and you knew
Speaker 2: that the union leadership was speaking in concert with the
Speaker 2: union membership. That seems to me to be less so.
Speaker 2: And certainly Donald Trump has made some inroads into the
Speaker 2: union base. Witnessed the non endorsements from the IAAF, the
Speaker 2: International Association of Firefighters as well as the Teamsters Union
Speaker 2: that some other Republicans like Ronny McCain George Bush weren't
Speaker 2: able to make. What's going on?
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, I do think that the union leadership
Speaker 3: is out of touch with their membership, and you know,
Speaker 3: nothing says that more than you know, the recent Teamsters
Speaker 3: example of the non endorsement, yet the you know, almost
Speaker 3: sixty percent of the membership that supported Donald Trump. You know,
Speaker 3: you're also seeing it just when it comes to politics.
Speaker 3: You know, typically a third to forty percent of union
Speaker 3: households typically vote Republican. Yet the vast majority you know,
Speaker 3: eighty ninety plus percent of union endorsements and union political
Speaker 3: money usually goes to Democrats. So there's a political problem there.
Speaker 3: But you know, as far as unions in general, even
Speaker 3: getting away from politics, and I do think the longshoremen
Speaker 3: with their push against automation kind of encapsulates this, is
Speaker 3: that unions really are in this industrial revolution one size
Speaker 3: fits all adversarial mentality, and the collective bargting business model
Speaker 3: is based in the you know, essentially the nineteen thirties
Speaker 3: with unskilled workers working in factories. That doesn't translate into
Speaker 3: today's modern workforce. You know. In fact, they wrote a
Speaker 3: study for the Backetaw Center about how unions can improve
Speaker 3: and become like professional service organizations, being unions for the
Speaker 3: twenty first century, embracing voluntary unionism, embracing things like merit pay.
Speaker 3: So not the only way to get ahead is by
Speaker 3: logging another year on the job and embracing flexibility. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: that just hasn't happened. I think that's another reason why
Speaker 3: unions just simply aren't. Their membership is not keeping up
Speaker 3: with the rest of the economy because they're selling a
Speaker 3: product that is outdated and that most modern workers don't want.
Speaker 2: Well, the only point I will make here is that
Speaker 2: if the International Longshoreman's Association does get this contract sixty
Speaker 2: two percent of whatever it is over six years, they're
Speaker 2: going to be way ahead of the rest of the
Speaker 2: other than maybe NFL and NBA players. They're going to
Speaker 2: be on a percentage basis highly compensated. So this union,
Speaker 2: and it obviously has some carveouts for it and some exemptions,
Speaker 2: some anti trust exemptions, which is very favorable to the union.
Speaker 2: Anti trust exemptions in sports back in the nineteen forties
Speaker 2: and fifties was favorable to the owners, not to the athletes.
Speaker 2: This is now, in my opinion, just the opposite that
Speaker 2: the anti trust provision is beneficial to the workers and
Speaker 2: maybe tilts the bargaining table a little bit more in
Speaker 2: favor of the workers.
Speaker 3: Fair analysis or no, it is the only issue is
Speaker 3: you know, we're not talking about, you know, the unions
Speaker 3: getting monopoly over the workforce at a faculty, which you
Speaker 3: know we can debate about. You know, we're talking about
Speaker 3: the union having a monopoly on everything coming into the
Speaker 3: country on the East coast or in the Gulf. So
Speaker 3: you know there's a much orguration here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But again, whether or not you're ever going to
Speaker 2: get Congress to allow competing companies inside these ports, well,
Speaker 2: I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime.
Speaker 2: Maybe it will happen in your lifetime, Vina, thank you
Speaker 2: for joining us tonight. Vincent Vernuccio, the president and co
Speaker 2: founder of the Institute for the American Worker. Interesting topic
Speaker 2: for me. I'm fascinated by this. I know our audience
Speaker 2: was listening, but I think you answered their questions and
Speaker 2: we'd like to keep in touch with you. You're a great guest.
Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: And by the way, you can put this up on
Speaker 2: your website. All you have to do sometime tomorrow is
Speaker 2: go to Nightside on demand dot com and you can
Speaker 2: pull that down from our podcast page, which Rob will
Speaker 2: be happy to give you that information if you want
Speaker 2: to hold on and you can circulate it amongst the
Speaker 2: supporters of your organizations. So stay there and Rob will
Speaker 2: give you the information more quickly. When we get back,
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about this incredible hurricane. More than
Speaker 2: two hundred and twenty people at this point are confirmed dead,
Speaker 2: and that number still is going to rise in the
Speaker 2: next few weeks. We'll be talking with a member of
Speaker 2: the Massachusetts Task Force one, an urban search and rescue
Speaker 2: team on the ground in North Carolina. After the ten
Speaker 2: o'clock news