WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an air wave media podcast. 2 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:08.080 Right of allheaded. 3 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:10.919 A right A, thank you, off. 4 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:14.359 I do being off. 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:18.519 I wanned all level. 6 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.160 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 7 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:32.640 A giant hairy creature in Part eight party mat in Luckness, 8 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:35.600 a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands 9 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.640 of Scotland. It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. 10 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:06.400 Mornstert All, Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. 11 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:09.560 I'm Blake Smith, and today with doctor Karen Stolesno and 12 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:13.719 Ben Radford, we'll be tackling the issue with video hoaxing. First, 13 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:17.120 we'll be discussing the context of Internet video hoaxes, and 14 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:20.159 then we'll be talking to Lou Petho, the man whose 15 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:21.799 video was ripped off to build. 16 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:23.159 The famous Mammoth hoax. 17 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:26.319 And after that we have a bonus interview with Alan 18 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.799 Melick Janion, better known by millions as Captain Disillusion. He'll 19 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:33.680 be walking us through how such hoaxes are made. This 20 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.280 episode will also have some interesting links in the show notes, 21 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.480 including my own frame by frame matchup which proves that 22 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:43.359 the Mammoth video did indeed derive directly from Beetho's source material, 23 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:46.760 and we'll also be talking about the Iceland worm and 24 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.359 how it differs from the mammoth hoax. We've got a 25 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:52.760 lot to cover, so let's get going with some morbster. 26 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:59.560 We've had a lot of really interesting video monster news 27 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:04.120 in the past couple of weeks. So one story that 28 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.040 we're going to be doing I guess the majority of 29 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:10.960 this episode on is this mammoth in Siberia. But there's 30 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:17.919 also another story about a mysterious ice serpent that Both 31 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:22.800 these stories are Internet videos that have gone viral, and 32 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:27.360 both of them, Ben, you've written articles on and found 33 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:29.560 solutions for really quickly. 34 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:32.520 So I think we have a lot of interesting things 35 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:33.159 to chat about. 36 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:34.280 Yeah, definitely. 37 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:35.479 Yeah. 38 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:37.080 Why has it been such a spite of these of 39 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:38.280 light I don't know. 40 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:40.599 And why are they all ice related. 41 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:42.520 Time of year? 42 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:46.280 I guess that must be I mean, actually it's interesting because, 43 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.520 as you pointed out, I mean there's a lot of similarities. 44 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:51.919 Both of them were you know, in icy conditions in water. 45 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.120 One was in Iceland, in eastern Iceland. I'm not even 46 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:57.639 going to try and pronounce the name of the lake, 47 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:00.599 and the other one, of course, was in Siberia. One 48 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:02.479 of them was much fuzzier than the other one because 49 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.159 as we as we now know, it was digitally dizzily 50 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:09.080 digitally fuzzified. But the other one, I don't think was 51 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:11.000 yes exactly, I mean, let's. 52 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.039 Not fill the whole thing up with the right exactly. 53 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:21.599 Yeah, exactly the insider tech jargon fuzzified. But no, it was. 54 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.080 It was interesting, I mean, just from my perspective, how 55 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.639 both of these turned out, because you know, initially I 56 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.080 had written pieces on both of them, sort of independently, 57 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:33.439 and to be honest, i'd kind of not ignored, but 58 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:36.000 I just hadn't gotten around to the whole ice the 59 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.960 Iceland lake, Monter or river, whatever the hell it was. 60 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:42.000 It had been around for about a week, and I 61 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:44.599 was just really pisical other things. I didn't get a 62 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:46.919 chance to do it, and then finally I was asked 63 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.719 to do it by by news organization, so I dropped 64 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.599 everything I did. But what was interesting was that what 65 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.599 with both of them. Of course, one of the first 66 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:57.520 things was, well, is is it real? Is it a hoax? 67 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.360 Whatever else? And of course they were. They were hoax 68 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.919 theories on all sides. But I think you know that 69 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:07.800 these two are a very interesting pairing when you look 70 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:09.879 more closely at the videos and you you know, what 71 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.159 happened and how did it happen and how did these 72 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.360 things come up? And we can talk some about that 73 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:16.800 now because I think it's again we've got a lot 74 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.720 of feedback, as you pointed out, from the monster Talk community, uh, 75 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:23.319 on Facebook and elsewhere, so it's a it was kind 76 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:25.000 of neat to sort of see how each of them 77 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:26.120 played out in their own way. 78 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:28.480 I was going to say, as well, as you noted 79 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.720 on the Facebook page, that it's it's really great that 80 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.879 these were tackled so quickly and that solutions and explanations 81 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.800 were found. Otherwise they would really be relegated to FOLCAL 82 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.720 very quickly and no one would ever uh be able 83 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:44.639 to explain them, and they just go on and on 84 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:46.759 and on. So it was good to really nail them 85 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:47.319 so quickly. 86 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.720 It's it, you know, it's a double edged sort. I mean, 87 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.199 you know, in some ways, the uh, the the internet, 88 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:56.959 you know, of course, it's we have a proliferation of 89 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.480 of these these videos and these you know, is it 90 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.639 a big foot, these blob squatches and here and there. 91 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.639 So on one hand, of course that the Internet has 92 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:07.879 has really promulgated and you know, made it much easier 93 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:10.720 to get these things out there and fooling people. On 94 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.720 the flip side, of course, we also have there's much 95 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.720 more there's much more capacity for immediately addressing these things 96 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:21.199 and bringing analysis and criticism. So which was which was? 97 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:23.399 Which is? Which? Is kind of good because again, a 98 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:25.839 lot of times, you know, in my experience, these things 99 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:27.439 just fade away. I mean, I can you know, I 100 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:31.480 can think of dozens and dozens of you know, of 101 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:35.439 videos of you know, the Lake Champlain monster or a 102 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.199 blob squad somewhere or whatever else that you know, makes 103 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.759 a big hubbub, and then after a week or two 104 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:44.040 it fades away and there's really no no final conclusion 105 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.040 or really solid analysis. And it was nice to sort 106 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:48.439 of be able to put a period at the end 107 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:49.279 of both of these. 108 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.480 If any of the Internet was around in nineteen sixty six. 109 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:54.279 Hey, right, exactly. 110 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.000 I think it's interesting to kind of talk about how 111 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:02.639 there's there's several big differences between these these two incidents. 112 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:04.240 I'm not sure what we should call them. Let's call 113 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:05.120 them incidents for now. 114 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:06.160 Hoxes. 115 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.079 Well, Well, that's the point, right, That's exactly the first 116 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:13.680 point I wanted to get to the the I really 117 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:15.759 wish I could pronounce the name of this thing, but 118 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:17.160 I'm just going to call it the ice snake. 119 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:18.800 So the video shows. 120 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:23.279 Blake, I believe you're referring to the log art flowstorm. 121 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:34.480 Bless you, Floats or Mrran. 122 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.279 You could just fix this in post. 123 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:41.720 Call it, call it the ice icelandic worm. How's that? 124 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:42.040 I think? 125 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:42.399 You know? 126 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:47.839 I think I think our friends, uh this was we 127 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:51.720 have listeners everywhere, but I think our friends in Iceland 128 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:52.519 are probably. 129 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:52.839 Laughing at us. 130 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:54.360 Really it's okay, Yeah. 131 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.959 So I think I also tore something in my tongue 132 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:57.480 just now. 133 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:03.560 So any Yes, you were talking the Iceland worm. 134 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.199 Right, the Iceland worm. We call the Iceland river worm. 135 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:06.639 Anyway. 136 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.279 The point is that the Iceland river worm video was 137 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.279 popularized after the person who saw the thing in the 138 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.240 river videoed it and then turned it over to the 139 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:24.639 local news as an interesting video, right, and then it 140 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:32.360 became sort of a monster what's the right word here. 141 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.720 It became another one of those encryptid reports that all 142 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:40.360 of our favorite websites picked up and carried, but it 143 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:44.759 was never I guess specifically claimed by the guy who 144 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:47.600 videoed it that he had seen the monster, he saw 145 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:54.839 something unusual in the water. But the mammoth video was 146 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.000 promoted as being a wooly mammoth crossing a river in Siberia, 147 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:02.480 that the person who videoed it actually had seen a 148 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:07.079 mammoth crossing the river, which is a fairly big difference. 149 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:11.360 Well, I think I was gonna say. One important thing 150 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:14.000 to understand is that, for the most part, when when 151 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:19.000 the public sees these videos, the immediate assumption is that that, 152 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.720 however it's being presented to them at the time, is 153 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:23.959 how it was presented to the journalist or to the 154 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.519 blogger or whoever it was. And so if they say, 155 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:28.839 you know, you know this is allegedly you know, this 156 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.919 was shot by someone who says it's bigfoot, and what what, 157 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.720 there's a lot of times there's nuances in there where 158 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.080 what you find is that is that that's not quite true, 159 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.519 and that certainly was the case with the the Iceland worm. 160 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.080 Was that uh, And as you pointed out, you know 161 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.360 the guy that that actually shot it, it's important to 162 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.759 realize that he didn't. His end of the story didn't 163 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:53.200 come out for several weeks when when when the first 164 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:55.240 when the video first hit the internet, and I think 165 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.320 it was probably, as I recall it, it probably appeared 166 00:08:57.320 --> 00:08:59.919 in one of the British tabloids, because they just create 167 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:04.720 this stuff out, you know, like like sausage. But but 168 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.279 when when it first appeared there we there was no backstory. 169 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:12.039 It was just basically, hey, here's this, here's this, this 170 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:14.639 this river monster in Iceland. 171 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:15.200 Uh. 172 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.919 And then after I think a week or two, there 173 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.039 was some follow up and then someone actually talked to 174 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.840 the guy and got a quote, and that's when it 175 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.240 sort of came out that he himself, as you point out, 176 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:27.679 and never really claimed that, and other people had sort 177 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.960 of put the label on that. And I that that 178 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:34.639 process by which people labeled monsters has always really interested me. 179 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:38.240 And the first time that I really noticed that was 180 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.279 with the Champ Monster in Lake Champlain because if you 181 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.159 look at the most famous photo photo of Champ and 182 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.039 really of any lake monster in the world, the one 183 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:51.279 taken by Sandra Manson in nineteen seventy seven. It appears 184 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:54.000 in all sorts of cryptosology books and mystery books and 185 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.759 unexplained books. As you know, a photo of Champ, the 186 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:01.679 local lake monster. But when I interviewed missus Mancy and 187 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.240 when I did more research on it, it turns out that, 188 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.120 in fact, she never claimed it was well, she eventually 189 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.519 claimed it was Champ. But at first she just said 190 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.799 I saw something weird. She never said it must be 191 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.240 you know, the local lake monster. She never said it 192 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.559 must be Champ. She just said, hey, here's this weird thing. 193 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.399 And it wasn't until later on when cryptozoologists came in 194 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.679 and basically put a label on her experience and on 195 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:29.480 her photograph, and in a very real way they told 196 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:33.039 her what she saw. In the end, I argue, and 197 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.000 I've argued in my books that they were wrong in 198 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:42.080 our interpretation. But of course she in her mind, these 199 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.519 were the experts. You know, these are cryptozoologists, They've written 200 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:47.240 books on these things, they know these things, and so 201 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.600 she was happy to accept their explanation because she sort 202 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:52.759 of felt like, well, you know, these are scientists, these 203 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:54.759 are experts. They know more about this than I do. 204 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.519 I'm just somebody who happened to be there and see 205 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.039 it and photograph it. And anyways, it's interesting because this 206 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:04.639 actually happens fairly frequently in these in these lake monster sightings, 207 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:09.320 where again as with the Iceland worm, the first person 208 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:11.679 isn't necessarily the person that's labeling it. It's just sort 209 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.879 of something weird, and of course something will weird quickly 210 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:16.840 translates into monster. 211 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.480 And then conversely you've got with the person Gimlin footage, 212 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:22.879 they were actually in search of Bigfoot at the time, 213 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:24.159 and then that's what they find. 214 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:30.720 Exactly in this particular case with the with the Siberian 215 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:35.159 Mammoth video, it's it's really unclear what the backstory was 216 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.440 supposed to be. The guy who brought the video to us, 217 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.879 Michael Cohen has been involved in bringing all sorts of 218 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:51.039 videos in other hoaxes and claims to the public. So 219 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.200 he was involved in I think we you know, as 220 00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:00.519 we talked about when we talked to low Petho, has 221 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.840 a series of hoaxes he's been involved with, or at 222 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:05.679 least what appears to be hoaxes too. 223 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.639 Right, we should probably qualify that not all of them 224 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.919 have been proven hoaxes, but they're certainly highly dubious. 225 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:15.919 Well, let's say two of them, in particular, this one 226 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.759 and then the Chicken alien from I think it was 227 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:20.200 April of. 228 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:25.240 Last year, and then what I think was pretty clearly. 229 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:28.159 Also a hoax is the video he did of a 230 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.519 supposed alien behind some Brazilian school kids. That looks pretty 231 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:39.440 phony to me. But again the question is not well, 232 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.799 I guess the question is did Cohen do these hoaxes? 233 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:44.879 Or is he just a promoter of hoaxes. I don't 234 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.480 know the answer to that, But what I think should 235 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.799 be clear is that if any news story comes from 236 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:56.039 Michael Cohen, it should be treated as extremely unlikely to 237 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.200 be true, like very suspect. I mean the whole whole 238 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:04.720 idea that you know, he's he's become like a pet 239 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:06.440 Barnum or a yeah. 240 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.000 I was going to say yeah, or. 241 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.720 Tom Biscardi. 242 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:12.399 Them all. 243 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:18.320 Yeah, he's a person who who's whose content is extremely dubious. 244 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.919 I would not trust it. I don't think our listeners 245 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.919 would trust it. And I'm surprised, well, you know, I'm 246 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:26.600 not surprised. We'll get to that too. It's like, I 247 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.360 want to talk about why the Sun would put this 248 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.720 onto their paper, because that's also kind of an interesting matter. 249 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:37.639 They're a tabloid exactly well, American listeners would be familiar 250 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.919 with the Sun as a British tabloid, but you know, 251 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.120 page three goals and the lot. 252 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:46.759 Well, and then those are respectable I'm talking about. 253 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:48.960 Comparatively. 254 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:52.639 Yeah, those aren't fake, you see, that's all? 255 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:53.919 Well they are? 256 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:59.159 Hey now so so right, there's the other thing. It's like, 257 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.480 what the Sun's responsibility in this manner? I mean, I 258 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:07.759 think they ought to, you know, be more reputable, but 259 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.559 it's not. It's not their job to be reputable, I guess, considering. 260 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:12.919 They've given up on that a long time ago. 261 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.720 I mean, they have a reputation as I mean, are 262 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:19.840 they suitable for holding fried fish? Well? 263 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.799 Yeah, I mean, look, I think that there's an element 264 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:25.279 to this where, you know, part it's it's a valid 265 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.159 question asked, did anybody was anybody really fooled by this? 266 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.600 I mean it's it's easy to sort of say, well, look, 267 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.159 you know it got it got five million hits on YouTube. 268 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.200 All these people believe it, not necessarily just because people 269 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.600 are watching it or forwarding it or commenting on it. 270 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:43.159 You know, it doesn't mean people are buying it. A 271 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:45.279 lot of them are skeptics and and things like that. 272 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.600 So I think I think that it's easy to sort 273 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:51.639 of unintentionally exaggerate the number of people that were really 274 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.440 you know, fooled or baffled by it. And and you 275 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.360 know when you when you look at and again, part 276 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:00.720 of that that credibility goes to word first appeared. And 277 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.159 you know when something first appears in the tabloids, just 278 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.320 like you know the National Inquirer, which I think is 279 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.960 now online, only you know ten years ago, if something 280 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.759 appeared in the Inquirer, every now and then, you know 281 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.320 something is true. I mean, the Inquiry has actually broken 282 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.240 important news stories like for example, I think they broke 283 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:21.200 Jimmy Swaggert being caught with a hooker and a copy 284 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.919 of Hustler, which I was I just love. But so 285 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.120 the point is that you know that even every now 286 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:29.360 and then, even they can come up with a real story. 287 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.480 But for the most part, people know what they're getting. 288 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.279 And the same thing with the Sun and especially when 289 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.240 you when you when you look at it from from 290 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.480 a skeptical point of view and you realize, you know, 291 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:42.279 this is all anonymous. This is you know, a government 292 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:47.039 employed engineer, really somebody, and this is all shot last summer. 293 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.639 I don't believe for a second that some Russian government 294 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:56.200 engineer saw a wooly mammoth last summer and didn't say 295 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.840 anything about it for six months, I just just don't 296 00:15:58.840 --> 00:15:59.159 buy it. 297 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.240 Yeah, well, the Sun, I think they were going to 298 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.320 replace News of the World with a Sunday edition. 299 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:07.480 If that says anything about. 300 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.759 Them, it doesn't. What does that mean, Well. 301 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:13.240 They we're going to replace another tabloid. 302 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:17.080 Oh okay, okay. So you know, my familiar with British tabloids 303 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:18.919 is very limited. I do know that the Sun is 304 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.279 I think the Sun and the Daily Mail. You know, 305 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.240 they have been responsible for so many wasted hours for. 306 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.519 Me, especially the Page three girls, right, I can't get to. 307 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:30.960 That at work. 308 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.759 And the Tory politicians in lingerie. 309 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.200 I guess my point is the Yeah, so that's a 310 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.919 dubious thing. But here's what I found really interesting. 311 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.639 A lot of the times when photos and videos appear 312 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:48.360 in the Sun, people I mean, I assume other listeners 313 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.720 have the same thing. They want to figure it out themselves. 314 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.919 They want to say, well, is that a real thing 315 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.279 to be curious about or is that just crap? Or 316 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.679 is that a reflection in a window? Is that digitally enhanced? 317 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:01.000 Is it something you know? Is it a real thing? 318 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.880 And in this particular case, it was fascinating to me, 319 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.200 I mean absolutely fascinating to me, less the video, but 320 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.039 more how the skeptic community split up on the whole thing, 321 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.599 and like the most if there had been an Internet poll, 322 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:18.319 by far, the clear winner would have been this was 323 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.480 actually a bear with a fish, right? And I found 324 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:26.759 that really interesting because I saw that there were elements 325 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.000 that implied digital trickery. And this was before the actual 326 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.359 source video came out. And so we're gonna have inserted 327 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.880 into this episode some really good explanations for how this 328 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.920 stuff was done. But everybody was so sure it was 329 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.599 a bear with a fish because of this really interesting reason. 330 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.880 They said to themselves Occam's razor, which makes more sense? 331 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.839 Is it a bear with a fish? Or is it 332 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:53.680 a Willie mammoth? 333 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.720 But the other option of maybe there's nothing there at all, 334 00:17:57.880 --> 00:17:58.640 taking which. 335 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.319 Is really the null hypothesis, I mean literally, then all 336 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:06.279 hypothesis didn't come through. It was like, why would somebody 337 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.279 take the time to digitally insert something when they could 338 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:11.599 just take a natural phenomena and put it in there. 339 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.720 And I think we'll address all those questions in the 340 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:20.480 two interviews. But that's that's that's really an interesting thing, 341 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.519 because maybe they were asking the wrong question or maybe 342 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.440 they asked the right question to begin with, is it 343 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.240 a hoax or not? Yes, as a hoax, and then 344 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:28.720 they played through I don't know. 345 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.680 Right well, I was gonna say in the original piece 346 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.880 that I wrote about that I basically I gave three 347 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.480 possible possible theories on it. The first one was that 348 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.200 it was it's an outright pox, that it was you know, 349 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.920 it's a computer generated elephant or mammoth that was digitally 350 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.240 inserted into the photo and you know, and just you know, 351 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.240 end of story. And then the second hypothesis that I 352 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.480 gave was was the one that you mentioned, which is 353 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.640 the the bear with a big fish in its mouth. 354 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:00.960 And then the third one was sort of a combination 355 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.599 of the two, that it was it was a bear 356 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:05.720 with the with the a fish in his mouth, but 357 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:09.720 it was also faked, and that is that is it 358 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:14.920 wasn't It wasn't that the photographer uh didn't recognize it 359 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:17.440 or you know, was like, oh my god, you know 360 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:19.279 I did. I just sort of you see this for example, 361 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:21.759 and in a lot of ghost photos where someone they 362 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.279 take a photo and then days later, weeks later whenever 363 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:27.200 they develop it, Oh my god, I didn't see that 364 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.599 at the time, well you know, got a wooing mammoth there, 365 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:35.480 like the theory exactly exactly, and so so that was 366 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.119 it was interesting to me to sort of parse it 367 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.720 out and where it was, you know, it could have been. 368 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.160 It wasn't a mistake, you know, it wasn't you know, 369 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.680 it wasn't an authentic you know photo of a bear 370 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.880 and a fish, and yet it was still faked. And 371 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.400 of course, as it turned out, the first explanation was 372 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.440 was the right one, but it was. It was really 373 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:56.759 fascinating to sort of, as you pointed out, to sort 374 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.200 of see you know, where people came down on it, 375 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.240 and people really got pretty passionate about it. If you 376 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.480 were getting pissed off about no, no, no, if you're you're 377 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.680 an idiot looking you can see the fish like, well okay. 378 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:09.480 But but I was gonna say, go ahead, Kiern. 379 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:11.160 I was just gonna say, I think it's a good 380 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:13.720 lesson for skeptics to not be too hasty and to 381 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:14.920 stay open minded. 382 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.160 I agree, And I think one of the things that 383 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:24.200 I found interesting was how many biologists I saw involved 384 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:28.319 in this discussion on various forums and in our Facebook 385 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:32.799 group and just all over the place. Talking about whether 386 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:35.519 or not there was useful information there. Could you tell 387 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.880 if it was a bear or if it was an 388 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.799 elephant or a mammoth and our mammoth model, and there's 389 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:47.640 this field of study called elementrics where you compare the 390 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.720 ratio of body part sizes to each other and you 391 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:54.759 get these numbers which helps you identify with the species 392 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:56.000 is you know. 393 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.680 And it's you know because in this case you don't 394 00:20:58.680 --> 00:20:59.000 have the. 395 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.079 Ability to look at the skull or the bones or 396 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:04.160 the DNA or anything like that, and it's very blurry. 397 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.960 But there that can take you somewhere that can kind 398 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.759 of help you figure out to some extent if it's 399 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:14.319 really a bear or I mean, even if you can't 400 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.240 tell for sure if it's a real bear or a 401 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.240