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Speaker 6: Good Evening. Multi millionaire Stephen Beer Junior fell hard for
Speaker 6: Celeste Martini Martinez, a shapely Blowe waitress who served him
Speaker 6: as nightly cocktail at the local country club, as well
Speaker 6: as sexual favors. In nineteen ninety five, the seven year
Speaker 6: old widow Beard married the thirty two year old mother
Speaker 6: of twin teenagers and gave her homes, cars, and more
Speaker 6: jewelry and designer clothes than she could ever wear. But
Speaker 6: it wasn't enough for Celeste. Claiming she was depressed, she
Speaker 6: checked into a psychiatric facility where she met fellow patient
Speaker 6: Tracy Tarlton, a prominent bookstore manager. Celeste seduced Tracy, convincing
Speaker 6: her that the only way they could be together would
Speaker 6: be to kill Steve, claiming in the wee hours of
Speaker 6: an October morning, Steve awoke to a shotgun blast to
Speaker 6: his gut. Tracy was arrested, but refused to implicate Celeste
Speaker 6: until she learned the truth about her lover. In as
Speaker 6: sordid trial sensationalized even more by the antics of fame,
Speaker 6: Texas Defense attorney Dick to gain. The depths of Celeste's
Speaker 6: lies were revealed in a Tale of Lust, Betrayal and Regret.
Speaker 6: The book that we're profiling this evening is The Fortune
Speaker 6: Hunter with my special guest journalist and author, Susie Spencer.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing
Speaker 6: to this interview. Susie Spencer.
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much. It hasn't been that long,
Speaker 6: but it's was my great pleasure to have you on
Speaker 6: just a while ago. And here we are again with
Speaker 6: another wild tale. So let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 6: because there's so much information jam packed in over four
Speaker 6: hundred pages in this book, and very deservedly too. There's
Speaker 6: no padding whatsoever, just crazy stuff. Let's start a little
Speaker 6: bit with Celeste with her original maiden name, and because
Speaker 6: she goes through a succession of marriages, so just to
Speaker 6: start to describe Celeste and her character, let's just talk
Speaker 6: about her first marriages. Let's start at that point in
Speaker 6: her life and talk about the characteristics that mar her
Speaker 6: relationships and then are characterized in her relationships right from
Speaker 6: the very beginning.
Speaker 7: Well, Celeste has always had a rocky start in life.
Speaker 7: She was adopted by a mother and father who could
Speaker 7: not have kids, but adopted four overall, and they were not,
Speaker 7: shall we say, the most emotionally stable people in the world.
Speaker 7: People would tell me that her father was an alcoholic
Speaker 7: and drug addict who then became very religious, changed his
Speaker 7: name Jedediah, and wanted to become a university professor, whereas
Speaker 7: he had been a Volkswagen car mechanic. Her mother was, Oh,
Speaker 7: let's face it, she was crazy. I mean, is Lee crazy.
Speaker 7: She was put in psych words several times. At one
Speaker 7: point she tried to believe stab a friend. I know
Speaker 7: that she was beating up a friend, and the friend
Speaker 7: and her family kicked her out. And then Celeste went
Speaker 7: and stripped off her clothes and went banging on not Celeste.
Speaker 7: Celest's mother went, you know, stripped off her clothes and
Speaker 7: went banging on doors. And so this was kind of
Speaker 7: the life where Celeste grew up. She claims that her
Speaker 7: father molested her from starting at age four up until
Speaker 7: about twelve. She then claims that her eldest adopted brother,
Speaker 7: Cole Johnson, molested her. She claims that her first husband,
Speaker 7: Craig Bratcher, who she married at seventeen when she was pregnant,
Speaker 7: that he raped her and abused her. Then she had
Speaker 7: her twins, who are very predominant in the book. And
Speaker 7: then she and Craig divorced. Then let's see, I start
Speaker 7: getting her marriages mixed up, as she married a military
Speaker 7: guy after that, and somewhere in there between the military
Speaker 7: guy and the divorce from Craig, she says that Craig
Speaker 7: raped her again and that she gave that child up
Speaker 7: for adoption, which she did, truly did give a child
Speaker 7: up for adoption. Then when she was with this Harold
Speaker 7: wolf who was the I believe the number two husband
Speaker 7: who was in the military, there are claims that she
Speaker 7: went into another psychiatric facility or a psychiatric facility. There's
Speaker 7: also hints that her mother had her like incarcerated when
Speaker 7: she was in high school. At this point, Celeste was
Speaker 7: getting known for sleeping with anyone and everyone who could
Speaker 7: give her money and get her out of trouble. Because
Speaker 7: when she married Harold Wolfe, she was living in Arizona
Speaker 7: and she got in deep trouble with the law there
Speaker 7: for insurance frauds, stealing from people, and developed a little
Speaker 7: record there. She claims that she dated an attorney who
Speaker 7: bought her new breast. Then she split with him when
Speaker 7: she found out he was going to having an affair
Speaker 7: with someone else, and she picked up in a bar
Speaker 7: Jimmy Martinez, who I believe was her third husband. And
Speaker 7: one day she was working in a restaurant and the
Speaker 7: lid on an ice machine fell on her breast, and
Speaker 7: then they sued the icemaker and the restaurant where she
Speaker 7: worked because she supposedly had injured her implants. Now this
Speaker 7: is sort of important because Slith had a thing about
Speaker 7: her breast and they seemed to come up a lot
Speaker 7: in the story. So even though her implants were fine,
Speaker 7: she had one of them removed. So that then apparently
Speaker 7: she had one saline and one gel implant, you know, silicon.
Speaker 7: But then and so that the lawsuit was that because
Speaker 7: of this, her husband, Jimmy Martinez, was deprived of her love,
Speaker 7: shall we put it politely. They eventually moved to Texas
Speaker 7: and she was working in a at the Austin Country
Speaker 7: Club as a cocktail waitress or waitress. At this point,
Speaker 7: she only had her daughter. Of her two twin daughters
Speaker 7: that she'd had earlier, she only had Christina with her
Speaker 7: because her other daughter, Jennifer, had stayed with Craig Bratcher
Speaker 7: and she wanted Ennerfer back. Supposedly, and so allegedly Jimmy
Speaker 7: was mistreating Christina, and Celeste wanted out of there, And
Speaker 7: there happened to be a lonely, obese, alcoholic, seemingly alcoholic,
Speaker 7: multi millionaire whose wife was dying from cancer, who frequented
Speaker 7: the country club every night, and who befriended so she
Speaker 7: when his wife died two weeks later, they started dating,
Speaker 7: and that multimillionaire was Steve Beard. At this point, ce
Speaker 7: is Celeste Martinez on her third marriage. She leaves Jimmy
Speaker 7: Martinez to get together with Steve, and Steve gets both
Speaker 7: of her children back. He gives her when they marry,
Speaker 7: like a year, year and a half later, he gives
Speaker 7: her a half million dollars and that's immediately gone. And
Speaker 7: then a few years later he gives her enough half
Speaker 7: million dollars that's immediately gone. Bottom line is, it doesn't
Speaker 7: matter how much money he gives her, it's never enough.
Speaker 7: So she wants the money bad, so she conspires. Am
Speaker 7: I going too far?
Speaker 6: Let's talk a little bit about the daughters as well,
Speaker 6: because we have the real, you know, just a relationship
Speaker 6: here because we're talking about Steve Beard and Big Daddy
Speaker 6: and how is it that he that he comes to
Speaker 6: his fortune, And really we didn't talk about his character
Speaker 6: that much. He's an obese guy. He's sixty nine years
Speaker 6: of age. She is less than half his age at
Speaker 6: thirty or thirty two years of age, and like we're
Speaker 6: talking about a three hundred pound guy. But we didn't
Speaker 6: talk about bout the sort of the gruff character he is,
Speaker 6: but the very very successful entertainment mogul that he ends
Speaker 6: up being and respected guy in his field. So let's
Speaker 6: talk a little bit more about Big Daddy and then
Speaker 6: we'll talk about again as you mentioned that he gets
Speaker 6: the other Jennifer to come into the home and Christine
Speaker 6: and then we see this relationship early on this new dynamic,
Speaker 6: and so we'll talk about that. So tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about Big Daddy, how he came to the
Speaker 6: money that he does have, and we'll talk about the
Speaker 6: family dynamic that.
Speaker 7: When I think about Steve or Big Daddy, I think
Speaker 7: about his daughter, Becky Beard, who I spent a lot
Speaker 7: of time with and got to know. And Becky always
Speaker 7: told me that Steve would have really liked me. And
Speaker 7: I think of Becky as a reflection of Steve, because
Speaker 7: she was a hard worker, and Steve was a hard worker.
Speaker 7: He was a self made multi millionaire who traveled all
Speaker 7: over the country and the radio business and the advertising business,
Speaker 7: working like a dog, raising three kids, had a devoted wife.
Speaker 7: This was all primarily in Dallas, Texas, and he just
Speaker 7: moved up the ranks and radio and advertising till that
Speaker 7: he was like the number two guy I think at
Speaker 7: Blair Advertising. And then he decided that he wanted to
Speaker 7: own a TV station and he moved to Austin, and
Speaker 7: like say, he was already well respected in the world
Speaker 7: of radio and advertising and opened up an independent station
Speaker 7: that eventually became a Fox affiliate. But Fox was going
Speaker 7: to yank the affiliation and they wanted to be a
Speaker 7: CBS affiliate now again. Steve gruff, big guy, hard talking.
Speaker 7: I mean, he could be a tad on the racist side,
Speaker 7: he could be a tad on the the I don't know, harsh.
Speaker 7: He was a hard talking guy. When he wanted something,
Speaker 7: he went after it, and he did not, you know,
Speaker 7: temper his language for anyone. But yet people loved him
Speaker 7: because he worked so hard and he was so loyal
Speaker 7: to the people that you know that were in his group,
Speaker 7: and he was funny, and he was lively. He wanted
Speaker 7: to live life to the ultimate and so you know,
Speaker 7: he was he was kind of lost and devastated when
Speaker 7: the TV station, like I said it was, they were
Speaker 7: trying to become a CBS affiliate since they were losing
Speaker 7: their Fox affiliation. And the CBS folks said, We're not
Speaker 7: gonna do this to you. You have to sell your
Speaker 7: station to this other company. Otherwise you're just add on
Speaker 7: your own. So he reluctantly sold the station and got
Speaker 7: millions and millions of dollars on this and that's where
Speaker 7: he became the multi millionaire guy, you know, who had
Speaker 7: time on his hands and started delving into real estate.
Speaker 7: But the bottom line is the people who knew him
Speaker 7: cherished him because he was so loyal and such a
Speaker 7: hard worker, and I believe, from what I understand, very
Speaker 7: honest in his business dealings.
Speaker 6: Now, this guy larger than life. What we say we
Speaker 6: talked about introducing the dynamic that went on, and also,
Speaker 6: which is very important, that these young girls have boyfriends
Speaker 6: Christopher Deuce and Justin Grimm. So let's first talk about
Speaker 6: even before this, because we skip over the the marriage
Speaker 6: and some of the bizarre stuff that goes on, and
Speaker 6: more importantly, the difference for Becky because you say, well,
Speaker 6: just as just a few weeks later after Steven's wife dies,
Speaker 6: but also Becky's mother. So yeah, you talk about the
Speaker 6: surprise that Becky has in terms of the new housekeeper.
Speaker 6: So tell us that little story, which is very demonstrative.
Speaker 7: Oh gosh, yeah, it's poor Becky. She was obviously the
Speaker 7: closest of the children. His eldest son, Steve, lived in Chicago.
Speaker 7: His youngest son, Paul, was in the navy. Becky was
Speaker 7: in Dallas, so she stayed more in touch with him,
Speaker 7: and so her mother died in October. Like I say,
Speaker 7: two weeks later, Steve moves in with this woman, you know,
Speaker 7: and or moves in a woman. He dates her and
Speaker 7: starts moving her in, and Becky talking to her dad
Speaker 7: and she says, he says, oh, I'm going to hire
Speaker 7: a housekeeper, And she thinks it's going to be some nice,
Speaker 7: elderly person. And she never expected to be a thirty
Speaker 7: something year old blonde bombshell, and she's just totally stunned.
Speaker 7: In fact, all of his friends are stunned, like what
Speaker 7: are you doing? And his friends are saying, what are
Speaker 7: you doing? And he said, hey, man, I don't want
Speaker 7: anyone to think I'm gay, and they go, well, no
Speaker 7: one's going to thank you that. And when they ask
Speaker 7: why she was moving in, he would say, also, well
Speaker 7: she's great at sex, and he and his wife hadn't
Speaker 7: been having sex for years. And so then the next thing,
Speaker 7: you know, the Becky calls a few months later and
Speaker 7: this young girl answers the phone and Becky's like, who
Speaker 7: is this and she goes, well, this is Christina and
Speaker 7: she's like, well, who are you? And Celestie's on the
Speaker 7: phone and starts screaming at Becky, why are you? You know,
Speaker 7: yelling and questioning my daughter. And ever since Celeste came
Speaker 7: into her life, that's what would happened to Becky when
Speaker 7: she would talk to her dad. It always seemed to
Speaker 7: be like some big shocker coming up.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 7: It's it's like he almost had this secret life and
Speaker 7: she just he didn't come out ever and never say
Speaker 7: this is what's going on. It's just imagine because he
Speaker 7: knew she wouldn't approve because she loved as all kids
Speaker 7: loved her mother, well I say all kids, Celestier didn't
Speaker 7: love her mother.
Speaker 6: What was exactly was Big Daddy's health? What was the
Speaker 6: some of the ailments he had other than being overweight.
Speaker 6: He's a big man, so, but what were specifically how
Speaker 6: how sick was this guy or how she was this guy.
Speaker 7: When he met Celeste. Okay, he couldn't necessarily function sexually,
Speaker 7: he had asthma, he had to have a sleep apnea machine.
Speaker 7: But in truth, he wasn't a man who got sick.
Speaker 7: He was you know, he was hid, blow and gun,
Speaker 7: so to speak. You know, he was other than a
Speaker 7: few little ailments that were all under control, he was
Speaker 7: fine until he met Celeste. And then after he as
Speaker 7: Celeste move in, he started going to the hospital constantly
Speaker 7: being rushed there, starflighted, you know, ambulance rides whatever, constantly
Speaker 7: going to the hospital.
Speaker 6: And what was the dynamic with the two daughters and
Speaker 6: Big Daddy and Celeste? What was characterized Not to give
Speaker 6: too much away too early here, but what was that
Speaker 6: dynamic like for everybody? According to we'll say the girl,
Speaker 6: their their perspective, What was it like this new experience
Speaker 6: for them?
Speaker 7: Well, Allegedly, Christina when she first met him couldn't stand
Speaker 7: him because he was this old, old, you know, obese guy,
Speaker 7: and she didn't want her mother with him. Allegedly, she
Speaker 7: grew to love him. Jennifer when she met him, and
Speaker 7: she she did not really meet him until her father
Speaker 7: committed suicide and she was just brought home, you know
Speaker 7: when I say brought home, brought to Austin, and they
Speaker 7: didn't like each other at first. I got the feeling
Speaker 7: that Jennifer and Steve began or you know, developed a relationship.
Speaker 7: What the truth is about Christina and Steve, I'm not sure.
Speaker 7: And court she portrayed it is that they grew close
Speaker 7: and that she was he was her dad because he
Speaker 7: wanted to adopt them, and his attorney and other people
Speaker 7: advised him not to because this was when they were
Speaker 7: about fifteen. They were saying, look, they're going to turn
Speaker 7: eighteen soon. Don't do that. And then he changed his
Speaker 7: will and he said, I'm adopting them, and even if
Speaker 7: the adoption is not completed by the time I die,
Speaker 7: they're still supposed to be treated as my children. And
Speaker 7: he totally embraced them and loved them and wanted to
Speaker 7: be there for him. Even Becky grew to love them,
Speaker 7: and that after Steve died and she got to know
Speaker 7: the children, the twins. I don't know how it ended up,
Speaker 7: but at one point she made the twins some of
Speaker 7: the beneficiaries of her.
Speaker 6: Will you tell the story of Steve Beard being admitted
Speaker 6: into the hospital and at the same time as he's
Speaker 6: rushed to emergency with something I guess you know, life threatening,
Speaker 6: his wife is picking out her own birthday president. So
Speaker 6: tell us the story of the car lot.
Speaker 7: Well, what is said to have happened is that Celeste
Speaker 7: would want to go out and party and do her
Speaker 7: own thing. So Steve loved to drink cheap vodka, and
Speaker 7: she would switch out his vodka with Everclear, which has
Speaker 7: a higher proof, to knock him out. And then on
Speaker 7: top of that, she would you know, slip him sleeping
Speaker 7: pills so that he would then pass out and she
Speaker 7: could go out and do what she wanted. One night
Speaker 7: he passed.
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Speaker 7: Details, and they would find them all over the place
Speaker 7: in the house, usually after he hit wet his pants
Speaker 7: or something, and they just kept maneuvering around the house
Speaker 7: I think callie the emergency EMS or anything, even though
Speaker 7: he was passed out. And so the next day, after
Speaker 7: they put him to bed again, I think at like
Speaker 7: five o'clock in the morning, when he was found wandering
Speaker 7: around in the house, she got up and said, let's
Speaker 7: go buy me a Cadillac for my birthday. So they
Speaker 7: went and picked out a Cadillac. She and the girls
Speaker 7: came home. Steve was still passed out. So after buying
Speaker 7: the Cadillac, and we're talking many many hours since you know,
Speaker 7: he had gotten so ill, they called EMS got him
Speaker 7: rushed to the hospital. She and the kids stood in
Speaker 7: front of the Cadillac to kind of hide it so
Speaker 7: that Steve wouldn't see it through his blurry eyes as
Speaker 7: he was hauled out of the house. And then he
Speaker 7: got to the emergency room. He was already by then
Speaker 7: coming out of the stupor and was doing okay and
Speaker 7: stee so listed. Now I can't come pick him up
Speaker 7: right now, I've got things to do. So she made
Speaker 7: him wait a few hours, and then I believe she
Speaker 7: went and picked him up in the Cadillac and said, oh,
Speaker 7: by the way, you need to send a check to
Speaker 7: the car dealership because I haven't paid for this, And
Speaker 7: she drove the Cadillac for a few weeks and decided
Speaker 7: she didn't like it after all and gave it to
Speaker 7: her daughters, who then proceeded to get so many speeding
Speaker 7: tickets that Steve took the Cadillac away from them too,
Speaker 7: But that was of the list.
Speaker 6: Now included with this behavior, this successive behavior, and again
Speaker 6: this very spoiled brat entitled behavior that she's exhibiting. She's
Speaker 6: depressed as well. So tell us about how she becomes
Speaker 6: to be in institutionalized and where she meets Tracy Charlton.
Speaker 6: But how does it come that she is going into
Speaker 6: a hospital of what are the conditions?
Speaker 7: Well, there are like numerous explanations of this. One is
Speaker 7: that she and Steve were fighting over money, and this
Speaker 7: is the generally accepted one that they present in court
Speaker 7: because he would realize how much money she was going
Speaker 7: through and said, you've got to stop this, and she
Speaker 7: got upset and you know, threatened to kill herself. So
Speaker 7: she was initutionalized. Another theory is that and this is
Speaker 7: the one that Celess says, her mother and stepfather had
Speaker 7: moved to Texas and we're living I think in one
Speaker 7: of the Beard houses and seeing her mother brought back
Speaker 7: all the bad memories of her childhood of being molested
Speaker 7: and being raped, and that's what made her suicidal and
Speaker 7: sent her to the hospital. So what the reality is
Speaker 7: or if it was both? And there's also another a
Speaker 7: third reason that I am sorry that is just flipped
Speaker 7: out of my brain. But you know, the general consistency
Speaker 7: consensus is that they were fighting over money and thee
Speaker 7: last whenever she was arguing with Steve over money would
Speaker 7: always this was a pattern in her life, say oh
Speaker 7: I'm depressed and fake suicide or attempted suicide and then
Speaker 7: go into a mental health facility where then he was
Speaker 7: would turn around and you know, be loving and caring
Speaker 7: and trying to take care of his wife.
Speaker 6: So she had a history of this, yes, as at
Speaker 6: least a threatening and yes, some people taking that threat seriously.
Speaker 6: So tell us about the occurrence of when she is
Speaker 6: institutionalized and she meets Tracy Tarleton. Tell us about those circumstances.
Speaker 7: Well. Tracy Charleton was a manager of book People Bookstore
Speaker 7: in Austin, which is considered the largest most important independent
Speaker 7: bookstore in Texas. It's a very high profile job, pretty
Speaker 7: powerful in the world of books. It's where you know,
Speaker 7: if you're a number one New York Times bestseller or
Speaker 7: a star like you know, that's where you go and
Speaker 7: do your book signings. That's where Jimmy Carter does his signings,
Speaker 7: where Hillary Clinton does her signings. And because of this,
Speaker 7: Tracy was always dealing with celebrity and was on c
Speaker 7: Span a lot talking about books and authors. And she
Speaker 7: was also bipolar and an alcoholic and a drug addict.
Speaker 7: And she lost it and went to Saint David's Pavilion,
Speaker 7: which is a psychiatric facility here in town, and that
Speaker 7: is also where celest was institutionalized after her suicide attempt,
Speaker 7: and they became friends. As Celeste tells it, when you're
Speaker 7: in a place like that, you have no family around,
Speaker 7: you don't know anyone, so you tried to bond with someone.
Speaker 7: And according to Celeste, it was her daughter Christina who
Speaker 7: saw Tracy Charlton looked at her and just felt so
Speaker 7: sorry for this woman who just looked totally, you know,
Speaker 7: spaced out and depressed and at this point drugged out
Speaker 7: on psychiatric meds, and encouraged her mother to befriend her
Speaker 7: and so they became friends there in the psychiatric facility.
Speaker 6: Was there any history, because I I know this answer,
Speaker 6: but was there any history that you saw that there
Speaker 6: was any blatant or bisexuality or any history of Celeste
Speaker 6: with other women? And then tell us, you know, we
Speaker 6: talked about the blonde bombshell that was thirty two years old,
Speaker 6: the breast implants. So tell us what was Tracy Tarlton's appearance,
Speaker 6: just for a visual.
Speaker 7: The Tracy's about five to seven, a little on the
Speaker 7: chunky side. She she's a tomboy, always has been.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 7: I refer to her as sort of carrying her, carrying
Speaker 7: herself like a linebacker a lot of times with dress
Speaker 7: and you know, plaid shirts and dot Martin's Uh wore glasses.
Speaker 7: Had a wonderful smile though. But she she is the
Speaker 7: type that and I hate to be this cliche, but
Speaker 7: if she's walking down the street, you would not be
Speaker 7: surprised that she was a lesbian. Whereas Celeste is usually
Speaker 7: decked out in gold jewelry, an updo, painted fingernails, uh,
Speaker 7: Saint John clothes, you know, or chanel or something. You know,
Speaker 7: she's gonna have the gold jewelry all over her, and
Speaker 7: and Tracy's just trouncing down the street being a you know,
Speaker 7: normal human being. And were you hinting about whether Celeste
Speaker 7: had ever been bisexual or whatever?
Speaker 6: Well, just about that. It's not something that's very evident,
Speaker 6: you know, from people that would just encounter or meet her.
Speaker 6: So what did you find? And and uh, yeah, what
Speaker 6: did you find?
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I I there is no way that
Speaker 7: I believe Celeste Martinez, or Celeste Johnson or Celeste Beard
Speaker 7: bless Bratcher, There's no way I believe that she had
Speaker 7: that Tracy Tarlton was the first person she had ever
Speaker 7: had lesbian sex with. Now, whether it was to like
Speaker 7: flirt with someone, you know, with hey I'll kiss this girl,
Speaker 7: to turn on these other guys or whatever, you know.
Speaker 7: But but she would claim that she had never had
Speaker 7: lesbian sex, and she may even say that to this day.
Speaker 7: But according to Tracy, Celeste was flirting with her and
Speaker 7: sexually attract the tour from you know, the moment they met.
Speaker 7: It's St. David's pavilion.
Speaker 6: You write in the book that the people that were
Speaker 6: monitoring them in Saint David's they were reports of them
Speaker 6: in inappropriate behavior and they were criticized for that a
Speaker 6: couple of times. So those were in the reports, weren't they.
Speaker 7: That may have been more like when they went to Timberlawn,
Speaker 7: And I may be mistaken on that also, but they
Speaker 7: eventually went to another psychiatric facility up in Dallas where
Speaker 7: they were roommates, and they got caught and compromising positions
Speaker 7: several times. And yes it was, it was written up,
Speaker 7: but Celeste would always you know, deny it that and say, oh,
Speaker 7: Tracy's after me. I'm happily married. No, no, no, you know,
Speaker 7: I don't want this. But yet they were meeting in
Speaker 7: hotel rooms, like while Celeste was still in there and
Speaker 7: Tracy was out patient, and then when Tracy got out,
Speaker 7: I mean when Celeste got out and Tracy was still
Speaker 7: doing outpatient up there. When I say up there in Dallas,
Speaker 7: I mean every time I drive through Waco, Texas, I
Speaker 7: look at the Lakita Hotel or motel that's right next
Speaker 7: to Baylor University, and I always have to point out
Speaker 7: that's where Celeste and Tracy would meet, you know, on
Speaker 7: weekends when they were supposed to be in Dallas at
Speaker 7: timber Lawn or in Austin or something, and they were
Speaker 7: hooking up there right by Baylor University, which is you know,
Speaker 7: then it's my schools where I went to college, but
Speaker 7: it's also a Southern Baptist university, So I always get
Speaker 7: kind of a giggle out of that.
Speaker 6: Right now, with Tracy Charlton, she's got this high pressure job,
Speaker 6: she's responsible for a lot of people, and she has
Speaker 6: a certain character. What was she prone to in terms
Speaker 6: of was there any indication of any violent behavior on
Speaker 6: her part at any point in the management of this bookstore?
Speaker 7: A You know, I used to have a lot of
Speaker 7: friends who work there, and they would talk about Tracy
Speaker 7: blowing up. You know that she would she had a
Speaker 7: hair trigger temper and she would just flip out on people.
Speaker 7: But I also know that Tracy was incredible at her job,
Speaker 7: just from my experience as a writer an author who
Speaker 7: you know, has done book signings there. I Tracy was
Speaker 7: one of the best managers that they've ever had. And so, yes,
Speaker 7: she got difficult where she couldn't necessarily do her job
Speaker 7: because she was flipping out on people. And then once
Speaker 7: she was hospitalized and tried to come back and Celeste
Speaker 7: was in her life, she would be, you know, drugged out,
Speaker 7: on psychiatric meds, so that she was like one of
Speaker 7: the first times that the book People's staff met Celeste
Speaker 7: was when they she and Tracy came in together, and
Speaker 7: some of the book people employees thought Celeste was her
Speaker 7: handler or something, because Tracy was slurring her words so
Speaker 7: and glazed over, and they try, you know, immediately began
Speaker 7: to rush her upstairs to the offices so that she
Speaker 7: wouldn't scare away customers. But then she, you know, eventually
Speaker 7: got functional at her job again, until things got worse
Speaker 7: and worse and worse, you know, after Steve was shot.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about just before we talk about the shooting itself,
Speaker 6: let's talk about briefly Justin Grimm and Krista reduced, just
Speaker 6: because it's very important that these people are around very
Speaker 6: often in the home. So tell us where one of
Speaker 6: the boyfriends, I think it's Justin, I'm not correct, is
Speaker 6: more prone to be there all the time. We're regularly
Speaker 6: staying over at the house before we talk about why
Speaker 6: that's important. So talk about Christopher Duce and Justin Grimm.
Speaker 7: Well, Jennifer and Christina each had a boyfriend. Jennifer at
Speaker 7: that point was dating Christopher Doci, who was a very,
Speaker 7: very very wealthy young man. And when I'm saying young man,
Speaker 7: I'm talking we're talking like eighteen nineteen year olds. Christopher
Speaker 7: may have been a little bit older where he was,
Speaker 7: maybe twenty twenty one or something. But Christopher was a
Speaker 7: kid who had everything you could ever dream like. He
Speaker 7: would talk about five hundred thousand being a small amount
Speaker 7: of money, and he was around quite a bit. And
Speaker 7: he and Steve he got along. They loved each other
Speaker 7: and respected each other. And then there was Justin Grimm,
Speaker 7: who was Christina's boyfriend, a tall, slim, dark haired guy
Speaker 7: that I basically consider a nerd. He had big dreams,
Speaker 7: but I'm not sure he had the brain power to
Speaker 7: accomplish everything. But he was, and that's probably an overstatement
Speaker 7: on my part, but he had sort of a high
Speaker 7: tech mind. He was considered the codemeister and that I've
Speaker 7: got your code, I know your code. That he knew
Speaker 7: the codes to everybody, and a lot of people considered
Speaker 7: that after Steve died, that Justin controlled the kids and Celeste,
Speaker 7: that he was considered himself the man of the house
Speaker 7: and he was there often. They were basically Christina and
Speaker 7: Justin were inseparable, and Celeste would kind of comes and goes.
Speaker 7: Her notes indicated that she really liked Justin, but now
Speaker 7: she refers to him in horrible terms and how she
Speaker 7: couldn't stand him in what a horrible person he is,
Speaker 7: but she leaned on him to take care of things
Speaker 7: and he was kind of the responsible person. When she
Speaker 7: celested through a graduation party for the twins, Jennifer was
Speaker 7: there partying with her boyfriend and they were getting drunk.
Speaker 7: Justin and Christina weren't at the party because they were
Speaker 7: running shuttle service for you know, being the sober drivers
Speaker 7: for everyone. So he took on a lot of responsibility
Speaker 7: in the family.
Speaker 6: So let's talk about the day in question, what everybody
Speaker 6: was doing, and what happens.
Speaker 7: What happened when Steve was shot with a shotgun blast
Speaker 7: to his belly. They were Steve and to Lest on
Speaker 7: October second, nineteen ninety nine or thereabouts, were supposed to
Speaker 7: leave on a long trip for Europe, I think a
Speaker 7: three week trip to Europe, and the night before or
Speaker 7: a few nights before, she wasn't packing, and Justin said,
Speaker 7: Lest why aren't you packing? Do you need some help?
Speaker 7: And she just wouldn't do it, and she also made
Speaker 7: sure that that night, or October first, which was a
Speaker 7: Friday night, she insisted that Jennifer and Jennifer's boyfriend and
Speaker 7: their friend Amy Cozart all went out to the Lake
Speaker 7: House and took Steve's dog, Meghan with them, and Megan
Speaker 7: never left Steve's side and Justin often spent the night
Speaker 7: at the Beard House, and that night she said Justin
Speaker 7: couldn't spend the night and Christina had to be home
Speaker 7: by midnight that day. Earlier in the day, she met
Speaker 7: with Tracy because they were planning for Tracy to kill
Speaker 7: Steve on the early the wee hours of October second.
Speaker 7: So Tracy came over to the house and they did
Speaker 7: a walk through with Celeste saying this is where I
Speaker 7: want you to enter, this is what I want you
Speaker 7: to do, and let her through the entire thing. Then
Speaker 7: later on in the day, Celeste changed it up and said, no,
Speaker 7: we're not going to do it this way. We're going
Speaker 7: to do it another way. Tracy was very very nervous
Speaker 7: about that. So the kids went out and when I
Speaker 7: say the kids, I'm talking Christina, her boyfriend and their friend,
Speaker 7: Damy Cozart, and the dog went out to the lake
Speaker 7: house at some point. The time is debatable, but around
Speaker 7: ten eleven thirty somewhere like that, Celeste went out to
Speaker 7: the lake house, eventually got back home and got to
Speaker 7: you know, said hi to Christina. Again, that's debatable. Some
Speaker 7: stories say that Christina and Celeste saw each other that night.
Speaker 7: Anothers say no, they didn't until after Steve was shot.
Speaker 7: But the bottom line is that Christina and Celeste were
Speaker 7: there in Christina's wing of the house, Steve was over
Speaker 7: in another wing, and about two three in the morning
Speaker 7: they were awakened by flashing lights and the police in
Speaker 7: the house. Because Steve had been blasted in the stomach.
Speaker 7: He didn't know how, He just know that. His phrase was,
Speaker 7: my gut jumped out of my stomach. And when he
Speaker 7: called nine, and the nine to one to one operator was,
Speaker 7: you know, legitimately saying what are you talking about? What
Speaker 7: are you talking about? How could that happen? He says,
Speaker 7: I don't know. I just woke up and my guts
Speaker 7: were out of my stomach. And the bottom line is
Speaker 7: that in the middle of the night, Tracy had put
Speaker 7: plastic over her car seats and in the floorboard, got
Speaker 7: dressed got her shotgun that had her name etched in it,
Speaker 7: come over to the house, backed in quietly. I remember
Speaker 7: her talking about how the gravel crunched under her tires
Speaker 7: and how when she got out of the door, out
Speaker 7: of the car, she just closed the door with a
Speaker 7: slight click, tried not to make any noise, sneaked in
Speaker 7: around the house, walked in, held her dun face, you know,
Speaker 7: at Steve's stomach, and she had told Celiste, if I
Speaker 7: shoot him in the stomach, he's not going to die.
Speaker 7: And Celis said, oh yes, oh yes, And she said
Speaker 7: what about the shotgun shell, because she used a shotgun,
Speaker 7: and Celeste said, don't worry, you know, pick it up,
Speaker 7: and if you don't, I'll pick it up. And she
Speaker 7: blasted Steve out of this in the stomach, couldn't find
Speaker 7: the shotgun shell, and got out of there and ends up.
Speaker 7: Celeste didn't go to the room, didn't pick up the
Speaker 7: shotgun shell, but the police found it and the next day,
Speaker 7: or I say I say the next day. It was
Speaker 7: actually a few hours later. Tracy was you know, picked
Speaker 7: up for questioning with her shotgun and taken in and
Speaker 7: was soon arrested.
Speaker 6: How did the police arrive at that conclusion so quickly
Speaker 6: with just that shotgun shell. Well how did they get
Speaker 6: to Tracy Tarlton that idea so quickly?
Speaker 7: Well, when they went to the hospital after, you know,
Speaker 7: Steve was airlifted to the hospital and all the kids
Speaker 7: went there. The kids out at the lake house got
Speaker 7: a phone call, get here, you know, Steve's been shot.
Speaker 7: They all gather, supposedly felicious, don't mention Tracy Tarlton to anyone,
Speaker 7: but the cops are sitting there. He's sitting on the
Speaker 7: floor trying to get the kids relaxed and talk to
Speaker 7: them and just saying, you know, hey, come on, tell
Speaker 7: me what happened. And they're like, well, we don't know
Speaker 7: who this could have done. And he's said, come on,
Speaker 7: this is not a strain.
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Speaker 7: You're kind of thing.
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 7: Who did This's somebody you know who would have done this.
Speaker 7: And one of the boys said that crazy Tracy Charleton,
Speaker 7: And they're like, who's Tracy Charleton? And they start filling
Speaker 7: him in, and so eventually they go And when I
Speaker 7: say she was arrested immediately, it really wasn't. But she
Speaker 7: was brought in for questioning that day because they went
Speaker 7: and did some checks on Tracy saw that she had
Speaker 7: been arrested previously for drunk driving and everything. So they
Speaker 7: went over to the house and asked if she had
Speaker 7: a shotgun. She said yes, reluctantly, she gave it to them.
Speaker 7: They took her in, took the shotgun in and it
Speaker 7: was Tracy's, you know, tested for ballistics and it matched
Speaker 7: the shotgun shell at the crime and all along Tracy
Speaker 7: denied that she had done this.
Speaker 6: Now did the two daughters know about the relationship that
Speaker 6: Tracy had with their mother and what kind of evidence
Speaker 6: gave them that kind of idea. They did get that
Speaker 6: idea well.
Speaker 7: Christina says that she saw her mother and Celeste kissing
Speaker 7: on several occasions, and they would talk about that. Celeste
Speaker 7: would spend the night over there sometimes, and I think
Speaker 7: there was a part of them that wanted to deny it,
Speaker 7: and then there was a part of them that knew it,
Speaker 7: and so yeah, they knew. I don't think they went
Speaker 7: around announcing it, but it was something that was kind
Speaker 7: of hard to deny because Tracy was obviously in love
Speaker 7: with Celeste, and Celeste obviously encouraged it. One of the
Speaker 7: things that the talks about is what they call the
Speaker 7: Fashion Victims Party, which was a party Tracy threw for
Speaker 7: her you know, coworkers at book People, and it was
Speaker 7: out at the Beard Lake House, and celest was the
Speaker 7: one who came up with the idea and the theme
Speaker 7: for the party and the food. And there were pictures
Speaker 7: of Tracy and Celeste, you know, sitting in each other's lap.
Speaker 7: There were people talked about how they acted like a couple.
Speaker 7: They were holding hands, they kissed, the couple talked about
Speaker 7: walking in on Tracy and Celeste and they were in
Speaker 7: a middle of a passionate kiss and it embarrassed the
Speaker 7: people who walked in on them. So there was there
Speaker 7: was just evidence all over the place, even though Celeste
Speaker 7: constantly denies that they were ever lovers.
Speaker 6: So let's talk about the shooting itself and his hospital
Speaker 6: and Steve's hospitalization. Let's talk about that incident itself.
Speaker 7: Well, he was, like I say, rushed to the hospital.
Speaker 7: He had like a fifty to fifty chance of living.
Speaker 7: Steve told his friends that the doctor said the reason
Speaker 7: he lived was because he had he was so fat.
Speaker 7: There was so much patting that you know, it took
Speaker 7: a while for everything to get to him. And this
Speaker 7: just shows what a fighter he was. That he survived
Speaker 7: like six seven surgeries, I believe, and a long time
Speaker 7: in the hospital and he wanted to be around his
Speaker 7: friends and talk to him, and Celeste would not let anyone,
Speaker 7: including the police, talk to him. And he was in
Speaker 7: the hospital from let's see October, November and December and
Speaker 7: a little bit of January, and then he was finally
Speaker 7: released to come home, and Celeste made sure that his
Speaker 7: time at home was very brief. He was only there
Speaker 7: for two or three days before he was back in
Speaker 7: the hospital and died. That's the real formation of it.
Speaker 6: Yes, that was quick.
Speaker 7: We uh, you can drag it out.
Speaker 6: I want to talk about is the I wanted to
Speaker 6: ask this question, and I'm sure the audience would would
Speaker 6: ask this as well. Was he familiar with Tracy Tarleton
Speaker 6: and the relationship that she had with his wife? And
Speaker 6: did he or did he know of Tracy at all?
Speaker 6: And then let's talk about you mentioned it that Celeste
Speaker 6: stopped everybody from communicating with her husband, including the police.
Speaker 6: So what was the police again their their attempt to
Speaker 6: be able to question him about Tracy Tarleton.
Speaker 7: Well, well, let me go back to the first part
Speaker 7: of the question. First, Steve did know about Tracy. He
Speaker 7: just didn't know that they were lovers. He had invited
Speaker 7: her to the high school graduation for the kids. He
Speaker 7: had thanked Tracy at points, saying thank you for being
Speaker 7: such a good friend to my wife. But then he
Speaker 7: also had suspicions because Trey is celest I think would
Speaker 7: showing cards where Tracy would write how much she loves
Speaker 7: Celeste and Steve like, what are you a lesbian? And
Speaker 7: she says, no, Tracy is. But you know it's nothing,
Speaker 7: and you know, supposedly he saw one of the kisses
Speaker 7: and said get out of the house, don't ever come back.
Speaker 7: But other people deny that. But yes, he was. He
Speaker 7: knew Tracy was in her life, he knew she was
Speaker 7: a lesbian. He was concerned about the relationship. I don't
Speaker 7: know that he knew how far it was. But yet
Speaker 7: he also paid the bills where he saw that Celeste
Speaker 7: was racking up big bills at some of the gay
Speaker 7: bars in town. He wondered about why Celeste would say
Speaker 7: she was one place when she wasn't there, so he
Speaker 7: kind of And the other thing to know is that
Speaker 7: while Tracey, I mean Celeste was having an affair with Tracy,
Speaker 7: she was also having an affair with her ex husband
Speaker 7: Jimmy Martinez. Which now that makes me remember the third
Speaker 7: reason that some people say that she went into the
Speaker 7: mental health facility in February of nineteen ninety nine, not
Speaker 7: only the fights about money, but because Steve supposedly found
Speaker 7: out about that time about her affair with Jimmy Martinez. Reputedly,
Speaker 7: Celeste would have sex with Jimmy Martinez and Tracy Charlton
Speaker 7: on the same day. So but as far as the police,
Speaker 7: they went there to question him on the day of
Speaker 7: the shooting, and when they said, you know, Tracy Charlton,
Speaker 7: they said that Steve's fifth clenched and he tried to
Speaker 7: say something, but he had a tube down his throat.
Speaker 7: But it was obvious something was going on, but you know,
Speaker 7: Celeste would always kick him out of the room. And
Speaker 7: then when they tried to come back and talk to
Speaker 7: Steve again, there was a sign up that said no
Speaker 7: one is allowed him to talk to Steve Beard, including
Speaker 7: the police. And one of the things that the complaints
Speaker 7: that the prosecutors had was that they believed that the
Speaker 7: police did not pursue this hard in us that they
Speaker 7: should have, you know, worked harder to get Steve in there.
Speaker 7: And supposedly Steve wanted to talk to the police, but
Speaker 7: Celeste prevented it.
Speaker 6: Now, in terms of his behavior at that time, Steve
Speaker 6: did he have any idea suspicion about his own wife
Speaker 6: and the possibility she may be involved and as a
Speaker 6: result he had a certain type of behavior or did
Speaker 6: he think it might be Tracy or what was his
Speaker 6: behavior and how did he treat it Celest as a result,
Speaker 6: I mean, he.
Speaker 7: Believed that it was Tracy because you know, she was
Speaker 7: pulled in so quickly, and like a month later it
Speaker 7: came out in the newspaper and Steve's friends all immediately
Speaker 7: thought Celeste was involved, and they would even call the police,
Speaker 7: you know, and say, hey, check into her, and the
Speaker 7: police wouldn't return their phone calls. And Steve he totally
Speaker 7: accepted that Tracy was behind it and Celeste. It's like
Speaker 7: it would come and go that he would sometimes feel
Speaker 7: like yeah, yeah, and then go, no, no, no, that's
Speaker 7: not my wife. My wife would never do that. But
Speaker 7: Becky thought this. The detectives told Becky to try to
Speaker 7: get their dad to talk about it, to record their conversations.
Speaker 7: So everyone seem to know that Celeste had done it,
Speaker 7: and Steve would convince himself that she hadn't, but nobody
Speaker 7: had absolute proof that she had done it, because the
Speaker 7: only real absolute proof would come through Tracy Carlton.
Speaker 6: Right now, Tracy Charlton is rounded up. It takes a
Speaker 6: little while, but she's arrested and charged. So we will
Speaker 6: fast forward to about a year later. And if I'm
Speaker 6: mispronouncing this gentleman's name, the police now are Rick Whines,
Speaker 6: and we're talking about Bill Menge and we're talking about ghost, right,
Speaker 6: And so we're talking about the investigation right now and
Speaker 6: the result of having Tracy Tarlton incostody awaiting trial, and
Speaker 6: that results will fast forward to a year later and
Speaker 6: what happens with Tracy Charlton and what happens with the
Speaker 6: development of this case and c Beard.
Speaker 7: Well, Tracy was not going to turn on Celeste and
Speaker 7: she was not going to admit her involvement in this.
Speaker 7: Tracy's father was a prominent attorney in Fort Worth, her brother,
Speaker 7: at least one of her brothers, was an attorney, so
Speaker 7: she knew things. You know, She's not a dumb person.
Speaker 7: I mean, she did a stupid thing, but she is
Speaker 7: not stupid. In fact, she is brilliant. And she was
Speaker 7: not going to turn on Celeste until one day she
Speaker 7: opens up the newspaper and Tracy's sitting in jail at
Speaker 7: this point and sees that within six months, actually less
Speaker 7: than six months are after Steve's death, Celeste had gotten
Speaker 7: married again to a bartender in Austin's downtown sixth Street
Speaker 7: bar district. And with that it hit Tracy that she
Speaker 7: had been used. And so it took months to happen,
Speaker 7: but she eventually struck a deal with the DA's office
Speaker 7: that if she would, you know, give truthful testimony against Celeste,
Speaker 7: that she would get a lighter sentence.
Speaker 6: Now, were the police and investigators using that information to
Speaker 6: their advantage, sort of leveraging that information to be able
Speaker 6: to because they had a very good idea that Celeste
Speaker 6: was involved with that was from their initiative, and use
Speaker 6: that information to finally break a Tracy Charlton.
Speaker 7: Well, actually it was after stieve you know, he was
Speaker 7: shot in October of ninety nine. He died in January
Speaker 7: of two thousand and the day of the funeral, Becky
Speaker 7: Beard and her brother went to the cops, I mean
Speaker 7: to the DA's and talked to him and said, Celeste
Speaker 7: did it. Here's proof, here's proof, and Bill Man is
Speaker 7: still saying, no, this is not proof. Constantly. Bill Man
Speaker 7: just said no, this isn't proof. Then, and I believe
Speaker 7: it was April of two thousand, the twins and their
Speaker 7: boyfriends came to a Bill Maninge and said, look, we
Speaker 7: have all this information, and they had tons of photographs, cards, checks,
Speaker 7: financial records and everything that implicated Celeste. But Bill Mainge
Speaker 7: still didn't quite feel like he had a case in
Speaker 7: the meantime, another huge case had happened where a cop
Speaker 7: was shot, and so he was focused on that and
Speaker 7: it dragged things out. But after Celeste got married, Tracy's
Speaker 7: attorneys kept coming to Bill Manage, the prosecutor, and saying,
Speaker 7: we can give you Celeste, we can give you Celeste.
Speaker 7: And he kept saying, I don't care, I don't care.
Speaker 7: You know I'm not interested. You know, I'm not going
Speaker 7: to do a deal. And eventually he did do a
Speaker 7: deal and Tracy took a lie detect her test, which
Speaker 7: proved that she was telling the truth. She then Bill
Speaker 7: Manage left the DA's office. A new proseccutor was brought in,
Speaker 7: Alison Wetzel, which is good because Tracy did not like Manage,
Speaker 7: and she and Wetzel got along really well, and they
Speaker 7: just built a fabulous case against celest and where they
Speaker 7: not only had Tracy's testimony, they had both of the
Speaker 7: twins testified against their mother, the boyfriends testified against her,
Speaker 7: their friend Amy Cozart testified against her. In fact, there
Speaker 7: was really not a case that to gear and put on. Yeah,
Speaker 7: well he was who was Celeste Beard's defense attorney?
Speaker 6: Yeah, we talked about that because it Originally Celeste was
Speaker 6: given an eight million dollar bail and we get the
Speaker 6: to say the least the colorful gearon comes in and
Speaker 6: knocks that down the five hundred thousand dollars. But you
Speaker 6: talk about the antics of de Geuron, and that's an
Speaker 6: amply a way of describing his as courtroom behavior and
Speaker 6: outside the courtroom behavior. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about what Dick Jigurin does and his strategy with this.
Speaker 7: Oh gee, I'm not sure what his strategy was. And
Speaker 7: that's how weak his case was. And I think he
Speaker 7: knew that because the only thing that he had that
Speaker 7: I could see was the stuff that didn't make it
Speaker 7: into the courtroom, and that was bad. Back when in
Speaker 7: the summer of two thousand, the kids, the twins tried
Speaker 7: to I guess you would say, sue a Celeste, and
Speaker 7: they gave all this testimony because they wanted their freedom
Speaker 7: from her. They were terrified of her, and things that
Speaker 7: they testified to their testimony kind of changed over the years,
Speaker 7: and he was which would make the children's testimony not
Speaker 7: as strong, but he could not get that into the courtroom,
Speaker 7: so he just I don't know, Dick got really upset
Speaker 7: with me about the book and told me I put
Speaker 7: the things in there that I shouldn't have. And I've
Speaker 7: always guessed that one of the things is that Dick
Speaker 7: has some tells, you know, like when you're playing poker
Speaker 7: and you have tells. I noticed that he has tells.
Speaker 7: And when he's upset and scared and stressed, his face
Speaker 7: turns red and he gets really angry, and his face
Speaker 7: turned red a lot of times. And he could not
Speaker 7: get particularly Christopher Docy, Jennifer's boyfriend. I remember his testimony
Speaker 7: so well because well and also Amy Cozart, Dick would
Speaker 7: try to get them shaken up, you know, and twist
Speaker 7: up their testimony, and they would not budge. You would
Speaker 7: have thought that they were the courtroom pros and he
Speaker 7: was the amateur, because it was like they controlled him
Speaker 7: instead of vice versa. And I find this so interesting
Speaker 7: because you know, he handles Robert Durst, who you know
Speaker 7: is coming up eventually sometime, I guess, on trial for
Speaker 7: a murder out in la and Robert Durst is the
Speaker 7: real estate mogul from New York who has always been
Speaker 7: suspected of killing his wife in New York and then
Speaker 7: he did kill a guy in Galveston, Texas, and Garon
Speaker 7: got him got free. So we were all expecting, you know,
Speaker 7: that maybe this would happen, and Dick was just he
Speaker 7: he couldn't do any he could not accomplish anything. Of course,
Speaker 7: it didn't help that he has a client who is
Speaker 7: probably lying to him constantly, and so it was this
Speaker 7: is one time where I got, I say, and I
Speaker 7: hate to say this, but you got to read the
Speaker 7: book because to watch Garon in action, and I really
Speaker 7: wanted to focus because he is such a ICoD in
Speaker 7: the world of law, and to see him this where
Speaker 7: two young attorneys from Austin, Texas just whipped the pants
Speaker 7: off of him, you know, because he would bring up
Speaker 7: things that in Austin, Texas, which has alleged Lee a liberal,
Speaker 7: you know image. He would do things like this horrible
Speaker 7: lesbian and everything, and he would forget that there were
Speaker 7: gay people on the jury. He would talk about insanity
Speaker 7: and stuff, but he would forget that there were people
Speaker 7: on the jury who had, you know, had mental health issues.
Speaker 7: He would harp on the fact that they were smoking
Speaker 7: pot well weed is very common in Austin. It's like
Speaker 7: he forgot his audience. And yet Degaron grew up in Austin.
Speaker 7: It was just it's it's like he thought, this is
Speaker 7: my personal opinion, he thought he was doing a trial
Speaker 7: in the much more conservative Houston, Texas rather than in Austin,
Speaker 7: and it's it's like he had no concept of the
Speaker 7: audience he was going to or the strength of Tracy Charleton,
Speaker 7: Christopher Doci, Amy coz Art, Alison Wetzel, and Gary Cobb,
Speaker 7: the other prosecutor on the case, who were just absolutely amazing.
Speaker 6: What do you point out as the again, they were
Speaker 6: young attorneys with against this veteran, but it looked like
Speaker 6: the veteran just showed up and put in his time
Speaker 6: as opposed to these other people. Was it the preparation
Speaker 6: of these because it looked like in the beginning that
Speaker 6: a lot of this testimony, like you say that the
Speaker 6: daughters had stories that changed, and the boyfriends were very
Speaker 6: solid in this. But what do you attribute this? You
Speaker 6: talked about the brilliant strategy that the prosecutors had, but
Speaker 6: what was it? Was it the preparation of those witnesses.
Speaker 7: The preparation of Alison we and Gary Cobb. Of the witnesses,
Speaker 7: Dick de Garin will tell you he and his staff
Speaker 7: worked like a dog on this. But like I say,
Speaker 7: he constantly offended the jurors. One of the things that
Speaker 7: he did that would make for great TV is at
Speaker 7: the very end and closing arguments, climbed up on the
Speaker 7: defense table, put a pillow on his stomach to represent
Speaker 7: a fat Steve Beard and pulled a sheet over it
Speaker 7: and talked about how then you know, Tracy shot him
Speaker 7: in the gut, and it was just I'm sure he
Speaker 7: thought this was a dramatic, wonderful recreation, but it was
Speaker 7: just laughable and offensive. Yes, And then in closing arguments,
Speaker 7: when he was arguing, you know, the guilty not the
Speaker 7: punishment phase, he just downright insulted the jurors over and
Speaker 7: over and told them how stupid they were basically for
Speaker 7: coming to this. And you could just see the jurors
Speaker 7: getting angry or and angrier, and from what I if
Speaker 7: I remember correctly, when they broke to deliberate, they had
Speaker 7: to spend a great deal of time calming down, you know,
Speaker 7: getting over their anger at Dick Degaron. It's like he
Speaker 7: just misread everything and why, I.
Speaker 6: Don't know, what was the demeanor of Celeste Johnson by
Speaker 6: this point, and we didn't talk about her husband, Cole Johnson,
Speaker 6: that she had married right after, you know, she became
Speaker 6: a widow and then shortly after. But what was what
Speaker 6: is his story and is he supportive of his wife?
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about Cole Johnson.
Speaker 7: Well, Cole Johnson, you know, again you have to look
Speaker 7: at she was married to this fat, rich old man
Speaker 7: who was gruff and everything. And Cole Johnson was a handsome, tall,
Speaker 7: somewhat slim, you know, young guy around fortieth or so,
Speaker 7: and so the comparison of the looks whoe. But when
Speaker 7: you you know, he was in a way a drifter
Speaker 7: kind of guy that went around tending barns, playing music
Speaker 7: and laying women. But he, you know, he sees Celeste
Speaker 7: and she's a wealthy widow, and he hooks onto her,
Speaker 7: and he stayed loyal to her through the entire trial
Speaker 7: and for a while thereafter. And now when I ask
Speaker 7: people about him, they they will just say he kind
Speaker 7: of disappeared, that's all they'll say. You know, he's not
Speaker 7: around anymore. But throughout the trial he was there every day.
Speaker 7: He was supportive. She would he would write poetry to her,
Speaker 7: song lyrics. He would say, I will. He got up
Speaker 7: in court and say, I will work two jobs to
Speaker 7: you know, because we're going to fight this and prove
Speaker 7: that she is innocent. There is nothing that proves that
Speaker 7: she is guilty. And when he's saying that, he will,
Speaker 7: you know, you work two jobs. Well, at that point
Speaker 7: he didn't have any jobs. You know, he was going
Speaker 7: to put on his Armani suit to court and friends said, hey,
Speaker 7: don't do that. You know, we're trying to go for
Speaker 7: a low bell. You can't go in with an Armani suit.
Speaker 7: And I found him to be a nice, pleasant guy,
Speaker 7: but you know, he's not going to be a society
Speaker 7: guy that's you know, going to be respected in the
Speaker 7: country club, even though he might be in there with Celeste.
Speaker 7: He's not going to be respected like Steve Beard.
Speaker 6: Right now, obviously, the outcome is she's imprisoned. And of
Speaker 6: course what's a big feature is the interview. So don't
Speaker 6: give everything away, but tell us about the conditions under
Speaker 6: which you were able to interview Celeste.
Speaker 7: Well, we had to fight for interviews in the past.
Speaker 7: We could and I say we I'm talking about true
Speaker 7: crime writers in general. We could go into the prisons
Speaker 7: and do interviews and then say, oh, you can only
Speaker 7: have an hour, that's what we say officially, but just
Speaker 7: take as long as you want. And when I did
Speaker 7: my first true crime book, Wasted, I was put a
Speaker 7: loan in the room with the killer, who was allegedly
Speaker 7: a hip man for the Mexican mafia. We sat literally
Speaker 7: knee to me. I took a tattoo tour of his body,
Speaker 7: and we were together for I think four hours approximately.
Speaker 7: By the time Celeste and Tracy were in prison, a
Speaker 7: new regime so to speak, had come in and taken over,
Speaker 7: and they considered true crime writers not journalists, and we
Speaker 7: were not allowed to do interviews. We fought for this.
Speaker 7: We got where we could do interviews, but like say
Speaker 7: in the past, Nita knee, now we were literally timed
Speaker 7: down to the second and we had somebody sitting there
Speaker 7: observing her the whole time, and so and one of
Speaker 7: the things though that worked out good, is because when
Speaker 7: I'm interviewing Celeste and I always wondered, how could this happen?
Speaker 7: How could this crime really? How could people have been
Speaker 7: sucked into her? And then when I sat across firm
Speaker 7: or for an hour or I understood she's a blast
Speaker 7: she's charming, she's funny. I had a great time with her.
Speaker 7: I didn't really want to leave because we were laughing.
Speaker 7: And then I got I get it. I get it now.
Speaker 7: But as we were being ushered out, she's being let
Speaker 7: out one way, I'm being let out the other. And
Speaker 7: we haven't finished our interview, and I'm shouting her questions
Speaker 7: and I'm like, well, what about the walkthrough? You know,
Speaker 7: why did Tracy do this or something? You know? And
Speaker 7: Celeste at this point, because she's being rushed out, she
Speaker 7: doesn't really realize. I think what she's saying to me,
Speaker 7: and do I dare tell you this? You know what
Speaker 7: she did say? And actually it's like I've got to
Speaker 7: look it up because uh, I'm trying. I want to
Speaker 7: get it correct. Oh gosh, And now I can't see it.
Speaker 7: But basically, oh I can't find it in the book.
Speaker 5: Oh rat.
Speaker 7: But she basically when I left, not realizing it, she
Speaker 7: confessed to me because she said something to the effect
Speaker 7: and I wish I could look and find this and
Speaker 7: then look it up and tell it to you. Specifically
Speaker 7: that Tracy wouldn't have screwed up if she hadn't have
Speaker 7: been mad at ceclast and if she had remembered the
Speaker 7: walk through, because remember how I said they did a
Speaker 7: walk through the day before and so let yeah, and
Speaker 7: Celeste basically admitted that there had been a walk through,
Speaker 7: and then she caught herself and said, oh, if there
Speaker 7: had been one, And I'm like, dang, I got it.
Speaker 7: You know, to me, that was like a confession.
Speaker 6: Well sure, I mean there's a lot of cases where
Speaker 6: despite all the evidence, despite the appeals, despite twenty five years,
Speaker 6: they're still professing their innocence. That's their ploy, right, that's right, simple.
Speaker 6: There's no benefit to confessing for those people like her
Speaker 6: that have been lying and conning right from the very beginning.
Speaker 7: And there are a lot of people who give me
Speaker 7: a hard time about my respect for Tracy Charlton because
Speaker 7: they say, how could you respect someone who tried to
Speaker 7: kill someone? And it's because of interviewing so many killers
Speaker 7: who always deny what they did. And I respect Tracy
Speaker 7: because she admits what she did and takes full responsibility
Speaker 7: for the actions.
Speaker 6: What was her You talked about the charm that exuded
Speaker 6: from from Celeste. What was when you spoke with Tracy?
Speaker 6: What did she say?
Speaker 7: Well, see, Tracy and I have a little a mutual history,
Speaker 7: and that we went to the same summer camp, and
Speaker 7: that we know a lot of the same people. In fact,
Speaker 7: one of my friends was a mentor to her, and
Speaker 7: she when God can't believe I'm telling this. When I
Speaker 7: first met Tracy, which was right after the trial, and
Speaker 7: we were all exhausted and stressed out, and I walked
Speaker 7: into the meeting with Tracy singing one of our camp songs,
Speaker 7: and she was furious. I learned this later from other people,
Speaker 7: because she thought I was being disrespectful to Steve. What
Speaker 7: Tracy did not know was that almost every night after court,
Speaker 7: Becky Beard and I were going out to dinner together,
Speaker 7: and Becky and I formed a bond where we were
Speaker 7: each other's support through the trial, because I know it
Speaker 7: sounds ridiculous, but these trials are emotionally wearing on the
Speaker 7: riders too. So Becky and I would go out at night,
Speaker 7: would have steaks or whatever, and we would talk and
Speaker 7: we would laugh a lot, would do black humor. We
Speaker 7: would also cry, particularly Becky would cry. So she didn't
Speaker 7: know that Becky and I had established this bond of
Speaker 7: laughter and tears, and that Becky wouldn't have objected to
Speaker 7: this fact. She probably would have been laughing. And so
Speaker 7: Tracy always didn't feel like I was respectful for the
Speaker 7: enough and got this. So even though I interviewed her
Speaker 7: twice and she was very giving to me as far
Speaker 7: as information, we did not create a particular bond. Does
Speaker 7: that make sense?
Speaker 6: Sure? But I ready to go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 7: Well, I was just saying, I just know her through
Speaker 7: our summer camp together. We did not know each other
Speaker 7: at camp, but we knew so many people. I know
Speaker 7: our personality from book people. Because she does not remember this,
Speaker 7: but she helped me a lot with my first book.
Speaker 7: I'm selling it at book people. So I know I
Speaker 7: feel and this shouldn't be this way because I'm a journalist.
Speaker 7: I shouldn't have this. But I do feel a loyalty
Speaker 7: and respect for Tracy because I know how smart she is,
Speaker 7: I know how caring she is. I know what kind
Speaker 7: of family she came from and how screwed up it was,
Speaker 7: and how she says, don't blame this on my family,
Speaker 7: don't blame this on my youth, you know my growing up.
Speaker 7: Don't blame this on my mental illness. I did this.
Speaker 7: This is my fault, and I admire that.
Speaker 6: She was diagnosed as bipolar, as you write in the book,
Speaker 6: and the deal was twenty years, so there is a
Speaker 6: she will be released someday and.
Speaker 7: She's already out.
Speaker 6: She's out, Yeah, she's out. Wow. Now, what was interesting
Speaker 6: in the book too, is that Celeste by that time,
Speaker 6: Celeste Johnson was incarcerated and so used to being spoiled
Speaker 6: and pampered that she had a real tough time. And
Speaker 6: it's not you don't write it as humor, but I
Speaker 6: found it really, you know, I could just it was
Speaker 6: very vivid in her requests and her her complaints while
Speaker 6: she was in prison. Maybe it does tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about how she fared in prison.
Speaker 7: Now, this was primarily when she was in jail here
Speaker 7: in Austin, and it was she couldn't get over that
Speaker 7: she wasn't the diva at the country club. You know.
Speaker 7: She would complain about how the shampoo in prison was
Speaker 7: bad and that it was making her hair braak and
Speaker 7: frizzy and fall out, and she wanted her sixty seventy
Speaker 7: dollars hair shampoo and stuff. She would complain that she
Speaker 7: wasn't getting her medications on time, and that she wasn't
Speaker 7: seeing a doctor, and she kept saying this, you know,
Speaker 7: I have health insurance, why can't I see a doctor.
Speaker 7: She complained that they weren't giving her her books, that
Speaker 7: she wanted her books to read, and the Garran sent
Speaker 7: a letter saying why can't she have her books?
Speaker 6: And the the.
Speaker 7: You know, officers at the jail would say, hey, she's
Speaker 7: not telling you the whole story. We only allow I
Speaker 7: can't remember. It was two or three books and she
Speaker 7: has six. And what was also amazing what she loved
Speaker 7: to read is true crime and that's one of the
Speaker 7: things that she would tell Tracy, like when Tracy said,
Speaker 7: it's not going to kill him if I shoot him
Speaker 7: in the gut, and Celeste said, oh, yes, I know
Speaker 7: these things. I read all these true crimes and mystery novels.
Speaker 7: I know what I'm doing, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah. What was the what was the dynamic between Tracy
Speaker 6: at trial, the demeanor of Celeste at trial and that
Speaker 6: faithful event when Tracy is testifying against Celeste. What's what
Speaker 6: was that dynamic?
Speaker 7: Like at court, celest would usually glare at someone when
Speaker 7: they you know, thinking that she could intimidate them, and
Speaker 7: the people usually wouldn't look at her. But what I
Speaker 7: found most interesting is at the very beginning of the trial,
Speaker 7: Celeste was this demure girl who would sit there all
Speaker 7: prim and proper in her twin sets. And as the
Speaker 7: trial went on, that demure, proper demeanor would leave and
Speaker 7: she would constantly whisper and talk and roll her eyes,
Speaker 7: which she got in trouble with the judge for doing,
Speaker 7: like I say, glare at people. And then when there
Speaker 7: were breaks, she would be over there laughing with her
Speaker 7: defense team. At one point they were talking about Celeste
Speaker 7: wrapping a house and I'm sorry, I can't remember the
Speaker 7: exact joke, but I think it was that they were
Speaker 7: wrapping Jimmy Martinez's house and that Celeste was angry and
Speaker 7: you don't have to correct me if I'm wrong, and
Speaker 7: she urinated on his lawn or something like that.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, And.
Speaker 7: That testimony was on her fortieth birthday, and she laughed
Speaker 7: and loved that and said that that was her birthday present.
Speaker 7: Was hearing that testimony. Yeah, her life is on the line,
Speaker 7: and she's like giggling about people testifying that this grown
Speaker 7: woman is urinating on her ex husband's lawn.
Speaker 6: Come on, Yes, interesting What was it like for the
Speaker 6: daughters at this, because you know, I mean, there's no
Speaker 6: no win situation for these people at all.
Speaker 7: The daughters they were totally stressed by this, you know,
Speaker 7: in court, refusing to look at their mom and everything.
Speaker 7: But they have a sense of humor and so they
Speaker 7: could sort of turn it on and off that they
Speaker 7: can be laughing and joking one minute and then serious
Speaker 7: the next. I believe when they when the jury was
Speaker 7: deliberating and they were you know, shuttled away in victim
Speaker 7: services or the DA's office, I believe they were making
Speaker 7: jokes about Celeste getting the electric chair, you know, and
Speaker 7: watching her fry. So it's I don't they get really
Speaker 7: upset if anyone says they're like Celeste, But they you know,
Speaker 7: they are their mom's daughters, and it doesn't mean that
Speaker 7: they're completely like Celeste, but they do have that ability
Speaker 7: to laugh and see weirdness in tragic situation.
Speaker 6: What was the media's take on this? Did they were
Speaker 6: you guys sort of in line or where did they
Speaker 6: go with this? I know they love beautiful people and
Speaker 6: rich people, and then talk of lesbian sexual affairs and
Speaker 6: somebody commissioning somebody else to murder. They must love that.
Speaker 6: So tell us what the media response was and what
Speaker 6: their sort of take was on it.
Speaker 7: Well, the local media when this first happened pretty much
Speaker 7: stayed away from it. There's a scene in the book
Speaker 7: where I have a lot of the people in Austin
Speaker 7: who were friends with Steve sitting there at Gossipine and
Speaker 7: the local grocery store, going what's going on? Why isn't this,
Speaker 7: you know, being you know, on the news, And all
Speaker 7: they could figure out was why wasn't Steve. You know,
Speaker 7: it must be because Steve didn't want this, because he
Speaker 7: knew everybody in the media, being in radio. And then
Speaker 7: right afterwards, one of the local radio shows though on
Speaker 7: a country western station, where is there you know, kind
Speaker 7: of the I won't say Howard Stern of country music,
Speaker 7: but they're rather irreverent group, and Celeste called in to
Speaker 7: their radio show and saying, oh, everybody's making this totally trashy.
Speaker 7: And they're being very respectful Celeste and saying, you know,
Speaker 7: our prayers are with you, and you know, and then
Speaker 7: they hang up and then they're like going, holy cow.
Speaker 7: And so I think the media, the local media was
Speaker 7: rather respectful. It was all the whispering that's going on,
Speaker 7: and the grocery store aisles at the country club and
Speaker 7: that kind of stuff. Now, if you're talking about the
Speaker 7: national media, yeah, they ate it up. You know court
Speaker 7: TV was here back when court TV existed. ABC News
Speaker 7: was following, the CBS News was following, so you know
Speaker 7: it did attract a bit of media.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Well, it's a fascinating tale. I want to thank
Speaker 6: you for coming on and talking about The Fortune Hunter.
Speaker 6: For those that might want to look further into some
Speaker 6: of the other books you. You mentioned the book Wasted,
Speaker 6: and we talked about Breaking Point with about Andrea Yates.
Speaker 6: Tell us where they might be able to contact you
Speaker 6: through Facebook or you have a website find out a
Speaker 6: lot more of your work.
Speaker 7: Yeah, on my website Susie Spencer dot com and that's
Speaker 7: spelled s uz y so that people get it correctly
Speaker 7: and find it. I'm I'm on you know, my website.
Speaker 7: You can email me through there. I'm on Facebook. I
Speaker 7: believe that Susie Spencer dot author something on Facebook. You
Speaker 7: can email me through there. I'm on Twitter at Spencer
Speaker 7: writer w R I T E R and you can
Speaker 7: contact me there. So I'm easy to reach. Just don't
Speaker 7: come at you with a shotgun.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, because it could kill you.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Thank you very much Susie for coming on and
Speaker 6: talking about that, and I know we'll be talking again
Speaker 6: in the near future. So thank you very much, and
Speaker 6: have a great evening
Speaker 7: You too, Thank you, good night, good night.