Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Bzy Boston's Radio.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan Watkins. Just a little over a week ago,
Speaker 2: we had this guest that's coming up on with us
Speaker 2: and we were had the fortune to talk with doctor
Speaker 2: Marshall Rungi, who is the dean of the University of
Speaker 2: Michigan Medical School, and I just felt that it would
Speaker 2: be great to bring him back, and he is consented
Speaker 2: to come back and take some phone calls. Doctor Runky,
Speaker 2: welcome back. You have a book that is just about
Speaker 2: to come out. I don't know if it's I think
Speaker 2: it's public published. Publicity date or published date is May sixth,
Speaker 2: coming up May sixth, a couple of weeks from now.
Speaker 2: Is that the deal?
Speaker 3: Yes, Dan, And it's great to be back on your
Speaker 3: show again. Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 2: Oh our pleasure. So your book is The Great Healthcare Disruption.
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 2: And you this is not your first book as I
Speaker 2: understand it.
Speaker 4: Correct, No, it's not.
Speaker 3: It's a new venture for me. Forges Books called me
Speaker 3: up and asked me if I wanted to write a
Speaker 3: book about where I thought healthcare was going in the
Speaker 3: next five to ten years and pick some important topics.
Speaker 5: And it was.
Speaker 3: A great project to work on.
Speaker 2: Well, my test thinning is that you look at the
Speaker 2: recent technological advances, policy changes, and different business models. Let's
Speaker 2: break that down a little bit in our conversation to
Speaker 2: language that lay people can understand. We talked earlier about
Speaker 2: how difficult it is to find a personal care physician
Speaker 2: what we call PCBs, PCPs or family doctors back here.
Speaker 2: Doctors are retiring at a very fast rate. The doctors
Speaker 2: that were produced through the baby boom. They're hanging the
Speaker 2: stethoscopes up. I had lunched the other day with a
Speaker 2: doctor friend of mine who retired a few years ago,
Speaker 2: and irust him about the fact that it's tough to
Speaker 2: get a doctor these days, no matter how old you are.
Speaker 2: And he was saying that he knew of a PCP,
Speaker 2: you know, general practitioner who retired and she cannot find
Speaker 2: a doctor herself. So in the midst of all of
Speaker 2: the renovations, you know, the new renovations, the technological renovations
Speaker 2: that we're that we're talking about, just getting a doctor's tough.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about some of these advances. Let's talk
Speaker 2: about the good ones first. What are the developments that
Speaker 2: you see that are clearly going to be positive going forward.
Speaker 2: In the terms of.
Speaker 3: Healthcare, well, I think there are several I do think finally,
Speaker 3: after a long time, there's much attention being paid to
Speaker 3: how we need to educate more doctors, and particularly those
Speaker 3: who are going to do primary care, so family medicine, doctors,
Speaker 3: in general internals, general pediatricians. Because if you look at
Speaker 3: there are all different kinds of ways to measure it.
Speaker 3: But if you look at the number of primary care
Speaker 3: physicians per one thousand in the United States, that's about
Speaker 3: point three to one. But if you look at our
Speaker 3: peer countries, sort of the high income advanced countries, their
Speaker 3: numbers are up to five or ten times as many
Speaker 3: primary care physicians. And I think that one of the
Speaker 3: things that we really need to focus on is helping
Speaker 3: people be healthy. Now we have great healthcare. If I'm
Speaker 3: going to be terribly sick, I'd rather be in the
Speaker 3: United States than anywhere else. But you're absolutely right, it's
Speaker 3: hard to find a primary care doctor, and we need
Speaker 3: to increase the number of people in those areas, and
Speaker 3: I think there are ways to do it, and I
Speaker 3: think we need to do more to try to keep
Speaker 3: people healthy so they don't have to go to the office,
Speaker 3: so that's.
Speaker 2: Why they bought. But the number that you just gave,
Speaker 2: I want to break that down. You're saying that for
Speaker 2: every primary care physician in this country, per one thousand people,
Speaker 2: there is zero point three to one. So that means
Speaker 2: that every primary care physician in this country, you've got
Speaker 2: to triple that thousand. There's one primary care physician for
Speaker 2: about every three thousand people, which is crazy. I think
Speaker 2: that's y. Yes, that's too much for anyone to handle,
Speaker 2: which is why so many people now their primary care
Speaker 2: physician is the local emergency room. We've gotten into that
Speaker 2: situation too, by the way, which is kind of the
Speaker 2: flip side of that ugly coin.
Speaker 3: Yes, you're you're absolutely right, Dan. And the other problem
Speaker 3: with the merchaningy rooms. I mean, there they provide great care,
Speaker 3: but it's very expensive. But the biggest part is you
Speaker 3: lose that continuity that you would have with a physician
Speaker 3: that you know, a doctor that you know, so because
Speaker 3: you go to the Mercury moom, it could be whoever
Speaker 3: happens to be working on on that shift. I do
Speaker 3: go ahead, let me.
Speaker 2: Ask you one question. One of the solutions that I
Speaker 2: think the medical community was suggesting UH to make up
Speaker 2: for the shortfall of internist pediatricians and primary care physicians,
Speaker 2: the doctor who you go to see on a regular basis,
Speaker 2: UH is saying, well, we'll graduate people who are known
Speaker 2: as UH. You know, medical assistants are are what what
Speaker 2: is I'm trying to think of the phrase they're not
Speaker 2: quite doctors, but their physicians assistance is the phrase I'm thinking. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's sort of in the spectrum. You know, I love nurses,
Speaker 2: but between becoming a doctor or a nurse, they have
Speaker 2: these folks are now physicians assistants. Has that experiment run
Speaker 2: its course and either succeeded or failed.
Speaker 3: It has in general succeeded and both for physicians assistants
Speaker 3: and and UH. In nursing there are what are called
Speaker 3: advanced practice nurses who are nurse practitioners, and that has
Speaker 3: been very helpful. And actually, in many rural areas or
Speaker 3: underserved areas, they the physician's assistants or nurse practitioners. They're
Speaker 3: they're they're they're the primary care provider in those areas
Speaker 3: because there just aren't enough doctors to who live there
Speaker 3: who want to practice medicine there. So I think it
Speaker 3: has been a it's been an important solution, and but
Speaker 3: it's not enough. And I think that a problem that
Speaker 3: I think we touched on briefly before Dan was that
Speaker 3: physicians just feeling worn out, burned out. And there are
Speaker 3: some technologies that I think are going to be really helpful.
Speaker 3: One of those has to do with AI. So there's
Speaker 3: a technology called ambient AI that's used in healthcare. Now,
Speaker 3: it's not widely used, but it's we're using it in
Speaker 3: the Versus Michigan. What it does is it listens to
Speaker 3: the conversation between the doctor and the patient, or the
Speaker 3: nurse practitioner or the physician's assistant and the patient, and
Speaker 3: it doesn't just transcribe it. It transforms it into a
Speaker 3: really high quality medical note. For all of us who've
Speaker 3: played around with AI, it's just amazing how it can
Speaker 3: summarize things and make it very logical. And so what
Speaker 3: that helps with is I don't know about you, but
Speaker 3: when I go to see my interness, generally he's facing
Speaker 3: the other way. He's a great doctor, he's facing the
Speaker 3: other way. He's tpping on his computer trying to keep up.
Speaker 3: And most primary care physicians say at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, they have two or three hours worth of
Speaker 3: documentation left. If they use this technology that I was
Speaker 3: just just they could be done when their clinic is done.
Speaker 3: Those notes are churned out by the time, but within
Speaker 3: a minute or two of when they finish their patient
Speaker 3: counter that can prove it, read it, correct it, and
Speaker 3: go on to the next questient. So there are technologies
Speaker 3: like that that they help, okay, and.
Speaker 2: So those that ambient AI produces a document which isn't
Speaker 2: just sort of like a verbatim transcription of the entirety
Speaker 2: of the conversation. It is able because it's artificial intelligence
Speaker 2: to isolate the portions of the conversation that are important
Speaker 2: to the doctor and to the patient, and it's then
Speaker 2: presented in a form that looks more like a form
Speaker 2: that the doctor would would produce, not just the transcript.
Speaker 2: How you're doing today, what's going on? Those Tigers keep winning,
Speaker 2: They're going to be a good team this year. That
Speaker 2: is not what's going to be trans We're going to
Speaker 2: be I assumed they're gonna They're gonna separate the wheat
Speaker 2: from the chaff, is what I'm trying to say. If
Speaker 2: it's if it's it really is artificial intelligence exactly.
Speaker 3: And I'll tell you another interesting factor of what AI
Speaker 3: is bringing forward and announces medical records. If you have
Speaker 3: requested your medical record, or you look at your medical record,
Speaker 3: it can be page after page after page after page
Speaker 3: of stuff that's just kind of piled on, and you
Speaker 3: can put that into an AI reader and interpreter and
Speaker 3: it can come up with a very powerful but concise
Speaker 3: summary of all the important things. And so rather than
Speaker 3: you having to look through or your doctor having to
Speaker 3: looked through fifteen pages, they it's a page and it
Speaker 3: has or maybe a page in a half, and it
Speaker 3: has everything that you need to do.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, doctor Ronki. I'm a keeper of records.
Speaker 2: I have in my office my medical records, okay by
Speaker 2: year and obviously over time. Some of them do provide
Speaker 2: insight out of importance. Others are just repetitive or unnecessary.
Speaker 2: And if there was a machine, I could see these
Speaker 2: records and I actually make up when I have the time,
Speaker 2: charts and graphs for myself, so I can look at, well,
Speaker 2: what was my what was my blood pressure? What was
Speaker 2: my cholesterol five years ago, ten years ago? Is there
Speaker 2: anything that is trending in a bad direction. I assume
Speaker 2: this is the sort of artificial intelligence that they could
Speaker 2: do that for me.
Speaker 3: Yes, But I have to tell you, Dan, you're like
Speaker 3: the perfect patient. I'm a cardiologist and for somebody who
Speaker 3: wants to follow what they're doing and knows what's going on.
Speaker 3: You know that that's my day when I see somebody
Speaker 3: like you. But you could try this experiment. You could
Speaker 3: take your you know, take a pile of your medical
Speaker 3: records and you can make a PDF of it, drag
Speaker 3: it over into chat, GPT and FAY summarize the important
Speaker 3: components of my medical record, show my blood pressure results
Speaker 3: over the past five years or whatever you want to
Speaker 3: look at. Are you my blood work, and it'll do it,
Speaker 3: and it'll.
Speaker 4: Do it in minutes.
Speaker 3: It is I try because I was just interested. Does
Speaker 3: it really work? And it really works?
Speaker 2: You're the dean of a medical school. Of course, you
Speaker 2: got to try that. My guest is doctor Marshall Rangy.
Speaker 2: His book is The Great health Care Disruption. It's it's
Speaker 2: published by Forbes Books. It's coming out on May sixth.
Speaker 2: I assume it's available now through Amazon and places like that.
Speaker 2: We have a lot to cover. If you'd like to
Speaker 2: join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four ten
Speaker 2: thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. It's
Speaker 2: not often on night Side, and I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of guests over eighteen years. I haven't had too many
Speaker 2: deans of medical schools, nor any dean of medical school
Speaker 2: who is who is a fluid and as understandable. Uh
Speaker 2: as doctor Rungy and Uh, I'm delighted he's back. We'll
Speaker 2: get some phone calls. Any question you might have, feel free.
Speaker 2: As I keep telling you that, as I learned in
Speaker 2: law school, the only questions that are dumb questions are
Speaker 2: the ones that you're too afraid to ask because they
Speaker 2: always came up on the midterms or in the final exam.
Speaker 2: So if you have any question, you know he's not
Speaker 2: going to diagnose you. Over the year. You understand the
Speaker 2: ground rules at Nightside that regard to okay, but if
Speaker 2: you have a question, feel free. We'll be back on
Speaker 2: Nightside with doctor Marshall RUNGI.
Speaker 1: Right after this, you're on Night Side with Dan Ray
Speaker 1: on wz Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: We will get to phone because I promise, but I
Speaker 2: just have one more segment that i'd like to talk
Speaker 2: with Doctor Marshall rungy about. He is the dean of
Speaker 2: the medical school at the University of Michigan, which is
Speaker 2: a great university for anyone who doesn't understand it is
Speaker 2: one of the pre eminent universities in this country. I
Speaker 2: just want to touch briefly, and we only have about
Speaker 2: four minutes until the newscast. Five minutes to the newscast.
Speaker 2: Here just to give a perspective, how many students does
Speaker 2: the University of Michigan. How many seats do you have
Speaker 2: for students coming in as a first year medical student
Speaker 2: that you can admit.
Speaker 3: Every year, we admit about one hundred and seventy student.
Speaker 3: It varies a little bit from year to year, but
Speaker 3: one hundred and seventy a year, okay.
Speaker 2: And how many students apply for those one hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy seats?
Speaker 3: Oh golly, I bet it's competitive. It's close to ten
Speaker 3: thousand people apply for those Okay.
Speaker 2: Very co If it's ten thousand people who apply, most
Speaker 2: of whom I assume have conquered organic chemistry. You're talking
Speaker 2: about an admission rate of one point seven percent. If
Speaker 2: I'm doing my math, if.
Speaker 3: I that's probably right. Your math is faster than mine.
Speaker 3: But I think that sounds right. Yes, it's a very
Speaker 3: low admission, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if it was a thousand seats for ten thousand,
Speaker 2: it would be ten percent. This is this is over
Speaker 2: one and a half percent, one point seven percent. And
Speaker 2: how many of those students who you because you only
Speaker 2: have so many seats, who you cannot physically accept that
Speaker 2: you have to reluctantly deny. How many of them do
Speaker 2: you think seek a medical career elsewhere, if if at
Speaker 2: other medical schools, or if necessary offshore. You and I
Speaker 2: have talked about the offshore medical schools before. I just
Speaker 2: want people to understand that that these are qualified students.
Speaker 2: I mean the you know, I assume that a good
Speaker 2: percentage of those students could handle you know, the medical
Speaker 2: school experience, but you just don't have the seats.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct, Dan. We on an average year, we
Speaker 3: feel there are five or six hundred very high quality candidates,
Speaker 3: you know, after we go to this pool. But the
Speaker 3: number is so high because now, as with college applications,
Speaker 3: a person can apply to thirty different places, and so
Speaker 3: we get a lot of there are a lot of
Speaker 3: people applying to different medical schools. But I would estimate
Speaker 3: the number of highly qualified candidates in the United States
Speaker 3: exceeds the number of positions in US medical schools by
Speaker 3: at least two or threefolds.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 3: Much higher.
Speaker 2: And a lot of those folks end up going to
Speaker 2: medical schools that are called offshore medical schools. I guess
Speaker 2: they can go to schools in Canada if those schools
Speaker 2: are available, they are Canadian residents. How do we rectify this?
Speaker 2: How do we get in this situation where there are
Speaker 2: kids who are who are knocking at the door and
Speaker 2: they and they want to be doctors, and we don't
Speaker 2: have the capacity to educate them well. University of Michigan,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about we as a society.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think there are a couple of issues. One
Speaker 3: is medical school education, like all education, who's gotten highly regulated.
Speaker 3: And some of that's positive and some of it's not
Speaker 3: a positive. But one of the things that has resulted
Speaker 3: in is I think our medical school classes are smaller
Speaker 3: than they could be. I think we have the capacity
Speaker 3: the University of Michigan, both the capacity for the more
Speaker 3: scientific parts of it as well as the capacity to
Speaker 3: train in different practice locations, different hospitals. We could train
Speaker 3: twice as many people and I think that's probably true
Speaker 3: in most medical schools. But there's concern about is that
Speaker 3: too many, too many students for us to give the
Speaker 3: knobable experience. The regulatory agencies, the Licensing commit Commission for
Speaker 3: Medical Education LCME, it's very difficult to increase the size
Speaker 3: of your class, and so I think we need to
Speaker 3: take a look at that and say, why can't we
Speaker 3: do more? Because we need more physicians, really, really in
Speaker 3: every specialty. The number of physicians is inadequate in the
Speaker 3: United States. And this dates back, oh more than twenty
Speaker 3: years when studies were done under the belief that certain
Speaker 3: changes in healthcare were going to result in far much
Speaker 3: lower need for physicians. And that just turned out to
Speaker 3: be a wrong assumption. So we need direct that and
Speaker 3: part of that's on us. Part of it's on me.
Speaker 3: I've been trying to get us to increase the size
Speaker 3: of our medical school class. But it's a state Hills time.
Speaker 2: Well, your class at the University of Michigan admits one
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy Here in Massachusetts, Michael Collins is the
Speaker 2: dean out there, and doctor Collins tells me it's a
Speaker 2: hard cap at one and twenty. Now I know Michigan's
Speaker 2: a bigger state than Massachusetts. But I think that that
Speaker 2: you're doing pretty well compared to Massachusetts. And whoever came
Speaker 2: up with that idea that they would need fewer doctors
Speaker 2: with the baby boomers now aging wasn't. Didn't anybody look
Speaker 2: at the birth certificates from the birth rates from the
Speaker 2: late forties and early fifties and do some man on that.
Speaker 4: I mean, clearly, I can only plead innocent. I wasn't
Speaker 4: part of those studies.
Speaker 2: No, I'm sure you were. I'm sure you weren't. But
Speaker 2: whoever was, I think that they did do some calculations.
Speaker 2: Were getting to take a break at it to get
Speaker 2: some news here will we want to talk more with
Speaker 2: doctor Marshall Runggy. He's the dean of the University of
Speaker 2: Michigan Medical School, a great medical school. His book The
Speaker 2: Great Healthcare Disruption, published by Forbes Books, available May sixth,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. I'm sure you can get it through
Speaker 2: Forbes Books. You can get it at Amazon. You can
Speaker 2: order it. It's coming out on May sixth. That probably
Speaker 2: there's there's pre orders available. We're going to talk a
Speaker 2: little bit about the book two when we get back
Speaker 2: some of the transformation that doctor Rungi said is really necessary.
Speaker 2: We'll get to all of that and also get to
Speaker 2: some phone calls. I promise if you'd like to get
Speaker 2: on board now, you'll be guaranteed to get a chance
Speaker 2: to chat. If you wait, you may we may run
Speaker 2: out of time because we have Professor Stephen Pinker of
Speaker 2: Harvard University psychologists at Harvard University joining us at ten
Speaker 2: o'clock to talk about the Trump administration's efforts or threats
Speaker 2: to take the tax exempt status away from Harvard University.
Speaker 2: Steve Pinker has been on the show before. He is
Speaker 2: no flaming radical at all. He's been very critical of
Speaker 2: some of the actions of the administration at Harvard, particularly
Speaker 2: as it related to some of the demonstration's last spring,
Speaker 2: the EI initiatives, et cetera. But he feels that it
Speaker 2: is an overstretch, overreach for the government to begin to
Speaker 2: withdraw tax exempt status from an institution like Harvard, for
Speaker 2: that matter, for really almost any institution, health care, facilit university,
Speaker 2: a place of worship. We'll get to all of that,
Speaker 2: I promise, if you'd like to jump on board six one, seven, two, five, four, ten,
Speaker 2: thirty six one seven, nine three, one, ten thirty. And
Speaker 2: if you are a college student out there who might
Speaker 2: be listening and are thinking about practicing medicine, this is
Speaker 2: an opportunity not to plead your case for acceptance to
Speaker 2: the University of Michigan, but you certainly can ask the
Speaker 2: dean what courses perhaps are would be most helpful to
Speaker 2: see on your resume and what you might be able
Speaker 2: to do at an extracurricular basis which might stand you
Speaker 2: out apart from all of the other highly qualified applicants.
Speaker 2: Back on Nightside the number six one, seven, two, five
Speaker 2: four ten thirty or six one, seven, nine three one
Speaker 2: ten thirty. Back on Nightside right after the news.
Speaker 1: So you're on night Side with Dan Ray.
Speaker 2: I'm w b Z, Boston's news Radio, delighted to have
Speaker 2: with us as my guest this hour, doctor Marshall Rungi.
Speaker 2: He is the dean of the University of Michigan Medical School.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: Doctor Ronki, we actually have listeners in Michigan, and I'm
Speaker 2: hoping one or two of them might pick up the
Speaker 2: phone tonight just so they that you will believe what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about. We have listened all over the country.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 2: And this is a problem that does exist all over
Speaker 2: the country. Is there anywhere in America, in your opinion
Speaker 2: or within your knowledge, where it is easier to get
Speaker 2: a new doctor if your doctor happens to retire or
Speaker 2: move move the practice out of town, or is this
Speaker 2: a problem that exists almost everywhere?
Speaker 3: Then I think it's almost everywhere, and in particular to
Speaker 3: get a new primary care doctor. Now, in many cities
Speaker 3: there's a more of a concentration of specialists, and it
Speaker 3: may be easier to find a specialist in large cities
Speaker 3: than it is in smaller, smaller towns or rural areas.
Speaker 3: But the problem with finding the primary care doctor is everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that is the foundation upon which any person
Speaker 2: needs to build their medical care in my opinion, because
Speaker 2: it's that primary care doctor that is going to spot
Speaker 2: things in your on your chart or just during your
Speaker 2: annual visit or your semi annual visit with the blood
Speaker 2: test and see some number is going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2: Let me let's let's get some callers in here as
Speaker 2: well as our conversation. If it's okay, We're going to
Speaker 2: go first to Frank, who is calling not from Michigan
Speaker 2: but from South Boston. Frank, You're on with doctor Marshall Roungy.
Speaker 2: He's the dean of the University of Michigan Medical School
Speaker 2: and the author of a new book, The Great Healthcare Disruption.
Speaker 4: Hey, Dan, thank you for taking my call, and thank
Speaker 4: you doctor Rungi for doing this. I think this is
Speaker 4: a great topic and very interesting. It's very close to me.
Speaker 4: I'd like to preface this with all about a year ago, Dan,
Speaker 4: I spent twenty one years in prison on a wrong
Speaker 4: for conviction. I've been out for twenty four years, but
Speaker 4: I've been so foretratulation.
Speaker 2: Did you know you're over there with Fred Weichel in
Speaker 2: South Boston who was in the same situation or a
Speaker 2: similar situation. And I'm sure you know the cases that
Speaker 2: I worked on, the Silvadi Lamoni case. Did you get
Speaker 2: did you ever get compensation from the Colnwealth of Massachusetts?
Speaker 2: Assume was a state conviction.
Speaker 4: It was, it was, and I didn't get as much
Speaker 4: as I would have liked, But yeah, I did.
Speaker 2: But what I just like, Okay, well, congratulations, I hope,
Speaker 2: I hope you got good medical care when you were
Speaker 2: in prison. That's one of the benefits of being in prison.
Speaker 2: There is a medical care. But how are you doing
Speaker 2: okay right now? I hope medically.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And if I was still in prison, I wouldn't
Speaker 4: be alive today. But I'd like to say, you know, I,
Speaker 4: first of all, doctor Ruggie my my, I'm a cancer survivor.
Speaker 4: I've been cancer free. I was diagnosed at the beginning
Speaker 4: of COVID and stage three prostate cancer and went to
Speaker 4: forty four radiation treatments with a student from University of Michigan,
Speaker 4: my urologist, doctor Mark Katz, who's like one of the
Speaker 4: top one hundred doctors in Massachusetts. But I'm so blessed
Speaker 4: to have the team of doctors. I am lucky, you know,
Speaker 4: to have the team of doctors because I know how
Speaker 4: hard it is to get a PCP. I've had the
Speaker 4: same PCP at South Boston Community Health Center for about
Speaker 4: fourteen years. She's an angel. She diag you know, she said,
Speaker 4: you know, there's something wrong here and sent me in
Speaker 4: and I saw the urologist and it went from there.
Speaker 4: But and I with the you know, the lack of
Speaker 4: primary care physicians, there's more more and more you see
Speaker 4: more PA's doing stuff, more nas and more d os
Speaker 4: osteopathic medicine doctors and they're all great, you know, but
Speaker 4: I mean the strain. I can see it here in
Speaker 4: South Boston and it's a great, great community health center
Speaker 4: that we've got, but I can you know, I can
Speaker 4: see the strain. And another day, I was just selected
Speaker 4: by Boston Medical to go to Washington, d C. Next month,
Speaker 4: the twenty second and next month for Hill Day with
Speaker 4: the American Association of Cancer Institutions and the American Association
Speaker 4: of Cancer Research. I just like to ask, you know,
Speaker 4: like the impact that this is having at U Michigan
Speaker 4: the cuts, because that's what I'm going to Capitol Hill's
Speaker 4: to speak about the cuts for research that are happening
Speaker 4: right now.
Speaker 1: And I.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me hold that into a question for you, Frank.
Speaker 2: And your story is amazing, Doctor Rounggy. We're dealing with,
Speaker 2: you know, the concerns that people have about cutbacks, health
Speaker 2: and human services cut backs, amongst others. How your governor,
Speaker 2: Governor Whitman, was in the Oval office the other day
Speaker 2: with the President, as I'm sure you know, what is
Speaker 2: the level of concern out there within the medical community,
Speaker 2: within the academic community. Stay there, Frank, don't don't don't
Speaker 2: leave we'll get you. If you have a follow up question,
Speaker 2: go ahead, Doctor Roggy.
Speaker 3: Thanks and Frank, that's great. It's about your pros say cancer,
Speaker 3: and it's great to hear you're going to Washington to
Speaker 3: testify because this is a big concern, and it's a
Speaker 3: concern because some of the proposed legislation or changes would
Speaker 3: reduce both access to care as well as reducing some
Speaker 3: of the critical research. It's ongoing clinical trials and other
Speaker 3: research that is developing the new cures that perhaps helped
Speaker 3: you through your prostate cancer. So you know, it's it's
Speaker 3: it's something that I know I'm concerned about. We're concerned
Speaker 3: about Michigan, but I think everyone is concerned about it,
Speaker 3: and I think we need to hope that we can
Speaker 3: get things, uh kept on track in terms of medical
Speaker 3: research and in support of all healthcare providers. I agree.
Speaker 3: I think all all those you listened are its great.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you go to one of these
Speaker 3: community clinics that's a federally sponsored one, they're called federally
Speaker 3: Qualified Health centers. Are those are outstanding clinics and they're
Speaker 3: present in you know, every city and in many rural areas.
Speaker 3: But again I don't know if that's what you go to,
Speaker 3: but there are opportunities out there, but so many of
Speaker 3: those depend on federal.
Speaker 2: All right, well, Frank, best of luck, You're a success story.
Speaker 2: Just keep at it, okay, and and uh and best
Speaker 2: of luck. Have a safe trip to Washington, and let
Speaker 2: us know how it goes when you get back.
Speaker 4: Okay, I will, I will, thank you very much. I
Speaker 4: wish that I had I wish I could have spoken
Speaker 4: with doctor with Steve Tinker also because it's like, you know,
Speaker 4: directly connected with what is just the cuts.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, this is great professor Pinker, Pinker p
Speaker 2: I n K E R. He's been all before and uh,
Speaker 2: we'll get some calls for him as well, and you'll
Speaker 2: be listening. So I thank you much, Frank, and we
Speaker 2: will talk again. Thanks so much. Congratulations on finding justice
Speaker 2: and also a cure.
Speaker 4: You're thank thanks thanks for doing this show too.
Speaker 2: Dan, very welcome, Thank you, Frank, were good to take
Speaker 2: quick break. My guest is doctor Marshall Runkie. He's the
Speaker 2: dean of the University of Michigan Medical School.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: There aren't many deans of medical schools around the country.
Speaker 2: There are a few of deans of medical schools, and
Speaker 2: the rare pro baseball players are pro football players, so
Speaker 2: it is a very special class of people. His book,
Speaker 2: The Great Healthcare Disruption. Is this a book, Doctor Rungi,
Speaker 2: that is geared to medical providers or is this a
Speaker 2: book that the general public can benefit from.
Speaker 3: It's mainly geared towards the general public. There's good many
Speaker 3: there are details that are maybe helpful for medical providers
Speaker 3: in areas that they're not as familiar with. But it's
Speaker 3: written with the intention of being accessible by people who
Speaker 3: are interested in learning more about their own health and
Speaker 3: about healthcare advances.
Speaker 2: Excellent, excellent. We'll take a very quick break and we'll
Speaker 2: come back for final segment six seven two four ten
Speaker 2: thirty six seven nine. And I know no one out
Speaker 2: there in Michigan is going to call, but please don't
Speaker 2: make don't make a liar out of me. We'll be
Speaker 2: back on Night's Side right after this with the dean
Speaker 2: of the University of Michigan Medical School, doctor Marshall Runggay.
Speaker 2: Back after this quick break.
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Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2: Back with doctor Marshall Rongey, the Dean of the University
Speaker 2: of Michigan Medical School. We're talking about innovations in the
Speaker 2: medical field and also the paucity of primary care physicians.
Speaker 2: Don't mean to be too illiterative there, but I'll tell
Speaker 2: you try to find a primary care physician in internist
Speaker 2: to whatever characters you want. It is very, very difficult,
Speaker 2: even for retiring doctors themselves, as I found out a
Speaker 2: few days ago in a conversation with a retired doctor.
Speaker 2: Let me go next to Peter Is in Weston, Massachusetts. Peter, welcome,
Speaker 2: You are next on nice Eye with doctor ed. Doctor Marshall. Rungy,
Speaker 2: go right ahead, Peter.
Speaker 12: Great, Thank you.
Speaker 3: Dan Hey.
Speaker 12: First of all, great show tonight, everything from cybersecurity to healthcare.
Speaker 12: Really impressed with your guest this evening. So thanks first
Speaker 12: of all, big shadout to doctor Rungy Goblue as a
Speaker 12: proud University of Michigan graduate. I mean he's been calling
Speaker 12: from ann Arbor. But I'm right down the road from you,
Speaker 12: and I have a son graduating from Michigan in about
Speaker 12: two weeks, so I'll be an ann Arbors graduation.
Speaker 3: Awesome, go Blue, So about as close as the.
Speaker 12: Call you'll get from ann Arbor. So my question really
Speaker 12: is related to this scarcity of primary care physicians. Right
Speaker 12: I myself here in the Boston area you'd consider to
Speaker 12: be an epicenter of healthcare.
Speaker 3: I've lost two.
Speaker 12: Primary care physicians to concierge practices. And what I've found,
Speaker 12: and this trend, is that more and more people like
Speaker 12: myself are going to urgent care minic clinic to get
Speaker 12: their primary care taken care of. Can you talk a
Speaker 12: little bit about that trend and how more and more
Speaker 12: I guess patients they're just kind of losing patients. Pardon
Speaker 12: the punt with their primary lack of primary care and
Speaker 12: just heading off to their local minic clinic or urgent care,
Speaker 12: which you see all over the place.
Speaker 3: Now, you bring up a really excellent point. And certainly
Speaker 3: there are primary care physicians who are going into concierge
Speaker 3: care in part because it allows them to have a
Speaker 3: smaller patient panel and they don't feel so stressed. But
Speaker 3: it takes away from the access that people have for
Speaker 3: primary care physicians. And I think you can get good
Speaker 3: health to care a lot of places. What the biggest
Speaker 3: concern I have and I think that people run into,
Speaker 3: is fragmentation of their care. So if you go to
Speaker 3: a minic clinic one time, or you go to an
Speaker 3: urge care another time, you don't really have any one
Speaker 3: person who's following all your health problems and who's gathering
Speaker 3: all your information so that if you run into a
Speaker 3: complicated problem, they know what how to fit that into
Speaker 3: your medical history. I think almost every healthcare provider I
Speaker 3: know is dedicated and wants to provide the best care
Speaker 3: that we can. But it gets complicated if you get
Speaker 3: your if your only alternative it is to get your
Speaker 3: care in multiple places.
Speaker 2: Is it even possible to develop a medical history by
Speaker 2: going to urgent care clinics and Adam, I'm not using
Speaker 2: that phrase in terms of a trademark phrase. You go
Speaker 2: in and you don't feel well, they take your pulse
Speaker 2: and they give you some prescription, but they're not doing
Speaker 2: your blood work in all likelihood unless it's a you know,
Speaker 2: how do you get your blood work done without a
Speaker 2: primary care physician on an annual basis? I don't even
Speaker 2: understand how if you go in and say I want
Speaker 2: my blood work done, I don't think it's a primary
Speaker 2: care facility they're going to do that. How do you
Speaker 2: do this? How do you accomplish this?
Speaker 12: Peter, Well, you know it's my understand and your electronic
Speaker 12: health record does follow you. You know, there's this whole
Speaker 12: thing right now from yeah, yeah, I guess is that
Speaker 12: yeah ahead?
Speaker 2: No, But I'm saying, if you're my doctors with partners
Speaker 2: Gateway right, and so he's associated with Mass General. But
Speaker 2: if I go to a primary care place on the
Speaker 2: Cape because you know, I've had a be sting, that's fine,
Speaker 2: that's fine, But I'm not going to go in there
Speaker 2: and say, gee, I haven't seen a doctor in a year.
Speaker 2: Can I get a physical I'm not sure do those
Speaker 2: primary care locations or urgent care locations do they do
Speaker 2: annual physicals and stuff like that that that any good
Speaker 2: PCP is going to do.
Speaker 12: For you, believe it or not, they will do that,
Speaker 12: you know, if you can't get an appointment. For example,
Speaker 12: I have two kids I mentioned one is that Michigan.
Speaker 12: I stually both of them are at Michigan. To be honest,
Speaker 12: one of the senior ones a freshmen, both graduated from
Speaker 12: the Western public schools. If you could not get an
Speaker 12: appointment in time for them to be approved to play
Speaker 12: their high school sports, you go down urgent care and
Speaker 12: get the same physical for them to be allowed to
Speaker 12: do that. So that is one example of I think
Speaker 12: how how I think patients are finding that care of
Speaker 12: care availability UH in a more convenient way. And I
Speaker 12: think there's this whole trend towards the consumerzation of healthcare.
Speaker 12: There's something to be said when we know more about
Speaker 12: our uber drivers than we do about you know, our
Speaker 12: local positions, right, I mean, how we don't have access
Speaker 12: to this information you know, in the in our in
Speaker 12: our smartphones, the same way we do with everything else
Speaker 12: we do, whether it's our banking, our car services, our
Speaker 12: food delivery. I just think healthcare has.
Speaker 4: To catch up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right ahead, doctor Peter. I think this is a
Speaker 3: you bring up really important questions and comments, and uh,
Speaker 3: I think you're you're right. I'd make another point or two,
Speaker 3: which is we do have electronic medical records, but something
Speaker 3: that has been talked about for years and it's not accomplished.
Speaker 3: Just what's called interoperability, where even if you have the
Speaker 3: same epic medical record in one place, it may not
Speaker 3: talk to the epic medical record in another place. Epic
Speaker 3: is a common medical correct but you know these are solvable,
Speaker 3: and the last time I look, I think they're forty
Speaker 3: or the new infants into healthcare where you can get
Speaker 3: immediate access now a lot of times over the telephone
Speaker 3: or over zoom, but immediate access, and so I think
Speaker 3: connecting all those is something we must pay attention to.
Speaker 2: The other comment I want to make in that is
Speaker 2: that on occasion when either I have had to go
Speaker 2: to an emergency room, or my wife had went to
Speaker 2: an emergency room, or one of my children went to
Speaker 2: an emergency room, it's never convenient. I mean, you're always
Speaker 2: going to wait two, three, four or five hours. My
Speaker 2: brother broke his knee a year ago in June, his
Speaker 2: former state police lieutenant, and he fell and fractured his kneecap.
Speaker 2: He ended up waiting about twelve hours in an emergency
Speaker 2: room before a doctor would even see him. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was insane in terms of the amount of people. Now,
Speaker 2: who are you using e ers as their their PCPs? Peter? Great? Great,
Speaker 2: when'd you graduate from Michigan? Were you were there when
Speaker 2: I'm Tom Brady time.
Speaker 12: A long time ago?
Speaker 10: I was.
Speaker 12: I was probably right before the Tom Brady era. But
Speaker 12: I will say we won the national championship in basketball
Speaker 12: nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 3: A local.
Speaker 12: Was one of the stars of that team. That's right afterwards.
Speaker 12: But a great squad. And I really appreciate your your
Speaker 12: your program, Dan and doctor Rangky outstanding guest obviously. Anyone
Speaker 12: who's a Michigan man is gonna be a great guest.
Speaker 12: And hopefully I'll bump into your Ingerman when I'm out
Speaker 12: there in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I hopeful we get again to see each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Peter, the introduction has been made, Peter, the invitation
Speaker 2: has been saying, so take advantage of it. You'd be
Speaker 2: crazy not to thank you. Peter, thanks so muchciate it,
Speaker 2: don't you run? Yeah? I tell you how much I
Speaker 2: appreciate you. Thanks, Peter, can't tell you much. I appreciate
Speaker 2: the time that you've spent with us tonight. You're extraordinary
Speaker 2: and I really mean that. Let me just again encourage people.
Speaker 2: The book that will come out on May sixth, but
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's available in advance.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: That's the way the books work these days. Correct. If
Speaker 2: someone wants to get this, they can probably get it
Speaker 2: on Amazon tonight and get a shipped tomorrow. The Great
Speaker 2: Healthcare Disruption is the name of the book, Doctor Marshall,
Speaker 2: rungy are you nnge? I wish a huge success with
Speaker 2: the book, and maybe maybe I can convince you to
Speaker 2: come back sometime in the fall and we can have
Speaker 2: a little update on how the medical community is doing
Speaker 2: and how the book sales are going. How's that.
Speaker 3: I'd love to Dan and thank you for having me
Speaker 3: on the show. I really enjoy hearing your thoughts and
Speaker 3: those are your guests. It's been great.
Speaker 2: Well, we have great guests, and we do have people
Speaker 2: listening in Michigan. Believe it or not, this is a big,
Speaker 2: powerful and I'm disappointed in my Michigan people who didn't
Speaker 2: get a chancet didn't have the courage to call it tonight,
Speaker 2: Doctor Rungky, again, thanks very much, and congratulations on the
Speaker 2: success of the Detroit Tigers so far. Don't know if
Speaker 2: it's going to last, but they're playing. They're playing a
Speaker 2: lot better than had been expected, so congratulations ranks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're looking good, right.
Speaker 2: Doctor Marshall Rocky, the Dean of the University of Michigan
Speaker 2: Medical School, an extraordinary guest. We'll be talking with Professor
Speaker 2: Steve Stephen Pinker of Harvard University right after the ten
Speaker 2: o'clock news here on Nightside