1 00:00:17,879 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:24,879 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,600 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,000 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:33,039 --> 00:00:37,240 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:40,439 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,880 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:48,679 Our guest today is John Veckioni, Senior Litigation Council for 9 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,359 the New Civil Liberties Alliance, which just won a huge 10 00:00:53,759 --> 00:00:59,079 First Amendment victory over government speech police. John, welcome back, 11 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:00,799 Thank you so much for joining us in the Federalist 12 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:01,359 Radio Hour. 13 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: Great to be here. 14 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:07,159 Speaker 1: You've got great news. As we talk Judge right before 15 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:10,799 we went on the podcast gives you what you were 16 00:01:10,879 --> 00:01:13,319 ultimately looking for. You'd had one step left, and the 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,560 judge signed on to this amazing agreement that really does 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,400 aim to stop what we saw for too many years 19 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:28,239 during quite frankly, the Biden administration, happened under any administration, 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:35,680 but we just saw a complete strong arming of social 21 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:42,760 media by the government to silence the speech of all 22 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,799 kinds of folks, particularly conservatives. 23 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: It's true now I will say this that the activities 24 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:53,480 started under COVID under the first Trump administration, but it 25 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:55,359 wasn't that they were run out of the White House. 26 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,000 Then it doesn't appear, but the allegations start in the 27 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,159 Trump administration. Then they batchet up exponentially in the Biden 28 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:05,760 administration with what they called a whole of government approach 29 00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:08,560 to stamping down views they didn't like. And I'll mention 30 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,919 the case. The case name right now is Missouri v. Biden. 31 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,560 I think that's what we've called it. But Biden for 32 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:17,719 the POLYMERI injunction was dropped out of the case because 33 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:21,479 you can't join the president, so it was Murphy v. Missouri. 34 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:23,840 Folks might have heard of it when it was at 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,639 the Supreme Court. So I just want to say where 36 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,560 we are. And after after a lot of jockeying, a 37 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:35,479 lot of legal maneuvers, we've entered a consent decree which 38 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,840 makes a lot of great statements about free speech and 39 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:45,240 then allows our clients, who are Aaron Kerriatti and Jill Hines, 40 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,319 Jay Bodicharia and Martin Kuldorf who are now in the administration, 41 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,719 started this case but they dropped when they joined the 42 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:57,120 administration to enforce this consent decree if their social media 43 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,919 posts are ever taken down or shadow band or whatever 44 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,479 by government activity by the Surgeon General, the CDC or SISA, 45 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:12,360 so that is, and also Louisiana and Missouri and Gateway 46 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,080 Pundit Jim Hoff can also enforce this agreement. 47 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: Indeed, and as I point out, and a piece of 48 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:25,479 the Federalist up this week, this deal will I think 49 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,879 ultimately help some other cases. I know that your organization 50 00:03:31,319 --> 00:03:38,000 has helped in getting the Federalist and some other news 51 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,000 organizations dealing with this problem as well. 52 00:03:41,319 --> 00:03:44,319 Speaker 2: I guess, so I guess what we should say full disclosure. 53 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,879 The Federalist is a client of NCLA is having its 54 00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:53,800 own speech downgraded and removed from various social media. So 55 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:57,120 that's another case that's going on. And I really hope 56 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:02,680 for follow on bolls from this. In your case, I 57 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:04,280 can't say more, but that's what I hope. 58 00:04:04,759 --> 00:04:06,639 Speaker 1: Indeed, Well, we'll talk a little bit more about that, 59 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,120 because it's expanded silencing of speech, speech suppression. But I 60 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,400 guess I wanted to ask you before we delve too 61 00:04:14,439 --> 00:04:16,800 much into this. There's good news don't get me wrong, 62 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,240 and don't I don't want to put to cast a 63 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:25,319 shadow of doubt over this agreement. But here's the thing. 64 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,279 It's kind of like the monitoring of the nuclear weapon 65 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,680 program in Iran. It feels like that, how will we 66 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:39,399 know in the future if these agencies are actually complying 67 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:43,720 Because you know, John, it took the Twitter files. It 68 00:04:43,759 --> 00:04:48,439 took Elon Musk in many ways to purchase Twitter and 69 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,399 turn it into x to be able to get this 70 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:51,759 information out to the public. 71 00:04:52,319 --> 00:04:55,199 Speaker 2: It's true. So before that we brought the cases before 72 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,600 that from just things the administration was saying, but then 73 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,720 all that cascaded down and then the congressional inquiries found 74 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,839 even more material, right, and that was and my colleague 75 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:08,680 Jenny and Unis left NCLA for a while. She's no 76 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,399 longer with us in any event, she's gone on to 77 00:05:10,439 --> 00:05:12,920 another group, but she left and she helped with the 78 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:17,160 congressional investigation for many months. So there was it took. 79 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:19,800 I mean, you had to boil the oceans to get 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,959 this information because in this case, both the government was 81 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,879 resisting and the social media organizations which we didn't sue, 82 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:31,759 were resisting discovery. So you're absolutely right about that. And 83 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,399 I think what we're going to do in this case 84 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,680 is under the agreement we give our everybody gives their 85 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,360 social media accounts that they have to we reveal it, 86 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:45,639 and those are the social media accounts that are going 87 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,319 to monitor this. But if we're downgraded or moved otherwise, 88 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:51,920 we'll test. Hey, look, we think we're downgraded because these 89 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,560 messages that are coming out of the government, and before 90 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,680 we move, they have to say, you know, what they're 91 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,480 doing is the way I would put it. You know, 92 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,240 I suppose they'll just say the social media is downgrading us, 93 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,879 but we can check with our own social media companies. 94 00:06:07,079 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well you said this about this case. You said, 95 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,360 this case began with a suspicion that blossomed into fact 96 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,560 that led to congressional hearings and an executive order that 97 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,079 government censorship of American social media posts should end. You 98 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:31,120 noted as well that this took some doing to get there. 99 00:06:31,399 --> 00:06:37,480 When did the case really officially begin? Obviously it started 100 00:06:37,519 --> 00:06:41,160 in Missouri, But what was the catalyst once again for 101 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:41,800 this case. 102 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: So we first I will say this, so Janine Unis 103 00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:50,439 was a lawyer here, and she was on Twitter all 104 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,439 the time and she noticed that all of her anti 105 00:06:53,519 --> 00:06:57,560 lockdown posts were a bit disappearing, and she was in 106 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,879 a community that had that and saw that was happening. 107 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,279 One guy was Jay Boticharia now the head of over 108 00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:14,959 at HHS, and Martin Kohldorf and Aaron Kerriotti, and they 109 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,040 were all they were like, why is this all happening 110 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,959 at the same time. But before that happened, we had 111 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,120 Mark Changhezi and some other folks. Janina and I brought 112 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,680 a case in Ohio where we allege this that this 113 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,680 was the government, not social media, and the judge says, well, 114 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,319 you don't. You don't really know that, and they have 115 00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:34,680 their own curating policies, so I'm going to dismiss this 116 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,360 for lack of standing. So that case got knocked out. 117 00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:41,399 But then this fellow named John Sower read our complaint 118 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:45,040 and he was at the Missouri AG's office and he 119 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,839 called us up, and I forget if he followed put 120 00:07:47,879 --> 00:07:49,959 on a lot of our stuff in his complaint or 121 00:07:50,639 --> 00:07:52,240 I forget the exact time, and I'm going to have 122 00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:54,399 to check on that. But he called us up and said, 123 00:07:54,439 --> 00:07:56,839 do you have any other clients other than these? And 124 00:07:56,879 --> 00:08:00,519 we did the folks I just met mentioned plus Jill Lines. 125 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:05,160 So we joined Missouri and Louisiana's case about four years 126 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:11,160 ago and maybe five. And the fact is we said, look, 127 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:14,160 this is not happening the way I sometimes put it is, 128 00:08:14,199 --> 00:08:19,160 you know, Hooper and Jaws says, this was no voting accident. Well, 129 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:22,319 this was no social media accident. There was a Leviathan 130 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:28,079 doing this, and that was our allegations. And the reason 131 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:30,279 it was so hard as that first case I just 132 00:08:30,319 --> 00:08:32,679 said that was dismissed is a lot of courts were 133 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,799 just saying, well, how do you know, Well, when you 134 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,600 file a complaint, you make an allegation, then you get discovery. 135 00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:41,679 And in this case, Judge Dowdy said, well, look for 136 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,600 preliminary injunction. I'm going to give them discovery. It was 137 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:50,159 limited discovery, but he gave us eight depositions, including doctor Fauci, 138 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,639 and he gave us we could we could send subpenis 139 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,480 to social media and we could ask the government and interrogatories. 140 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,759 And one of the things that happened in this case 141 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:03,039 that I think really showed that the government was hiding 142 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,480 the ball when we asked the government who had contacted 143 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:12,200 the social media outfits Twitter, Facebook, by all of them. Instagram, 144 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:15,600 they gave us a list of like, let's say, twenty 145 00:09:15,639 --> 00:09:19,759 five names. But when we subpoenaed the social media companies, 146 00:09:19,799 --> 00:09:21,519 they gave us a list of one hundred and twenty 147 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,360 five names from the government that had contacted them. So 148 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,679 it was obvious that what was happening here was they 149 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,519 were getting a lot more government pushback and interference then 150 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,960 the government was even admitting to and that blew open 151 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:43,159 emails of the government had told them what they didn't like. 152 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,320 What didn't they like, well, a lot of true things. 153 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:51,039 They didn't like that the COVID vaccines did not stop transmission. 154 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,440 They didn't like that the COVID vaccines were most efficacious 155 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,519 in people over fifty five sixty and they were not 156 00:09:59,799 --> 00:10:02,120 at as effication says you got younger down the line, 157 00:10:02,159 --> 00:10:05,519 particularly teenagers. They did not like that mass don't work. 158 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:12,240 They did not like that once a viral respiratory disease 159 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,000 was out there, you couldn't stop it by this social 160 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:22,120 distancing thing. And they didn't like the fact that talk 161 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:24,720 about the Constitution and your rights when they were shutting 162 00:10:24,759 --> 00:10:30,000 you all down. So and then for Hoft and the States, 163 00:10:30,039 --> 00:10:33,080 they also note they had a lot of speech on 164 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:42,279 the election of twenty twenty having having you know, voting irregularities, 165 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,120 and then also Hunter Biden's laptop they had that was 166 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,240 that was they said it was Russian disinformation. So you 167 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,159 got to take off that. This was all Hunter Biden. 168 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,559 Now almost all that stuff. I'll put the voting stuff 169 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,320 aside for a second, but all the other things are 170 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,159 Everyone ninety believes all those statements are true. And all 171 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:04,960 those statements were removed from the public discourse by the 172 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,879 government when it could true things. 173 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,399 Speaker 1: So you know, that's outrageous, true things John identified by 174 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:19,320 the government as disinformation, misinformation and this doozy of a 175 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:25,000 big brother concept mail information, and of course mail information 176 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:31,080 was described by the people who used it as stuff 177 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,919 that's true but makes the government uncomfortable. 178 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,799 Speaker 2: Yeah they didn't hide that. 179 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, just just amazing to me. But you know, I 180 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,399 really do think or Well got it right. He was 181 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:49,200 just a few years too soon on it all. But 182 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:53,440 this really did feel orwellian to those of us who 183 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,039 got our speech locked out as we were locked down 184 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:57,879 by the government. 185 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,399 Speaker 2: And now not only that, I will say this, every 186 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,720 lawyer who got involved in this are the type of 187 00:12:02,759 --> 00:12:05,000 lawyers who don't trust the government, right, we'd see the 188 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,600 government all the time. I think, I am not I'm 189 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,279 not telling any secrets when I tell you that every 190 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:17,320 lawyer who worked on this, from NCLA to Jim Hosh, 191 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:23,039 lawyer Jonathan Burns, to the Missouri and Louisiana AGS and sg's, 192 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,159 we were shocked by how massive this was. That the 193 00:12:27,159 --> 00:12:31,080 fact that the government had portals, electronic portals to the 194 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,360 social media to tell them the messages they wanted downgraded 195 00:12:34,399 --> 00:12:38,080 and they didn't like that were special functions that the 196 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,080 government could send them was was that flawergast at us. 197 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,759 So as we got into it, it got worse and worse. 198 00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:46,600 But I do I don't want to let this go 199 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,720 by without reading the two paragraphs that take care of 200 00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:52,799 the very problem you just mentioned that I think are 201 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,200 going to be repeated in free speech stuff if this 202 00:12:55,279 --> 00:12:58,919 ever happens again. Paragraph twenty one. The parties that means 203 00:12:58,919 --> 00:13:01,320 both sides, That means the agencies and the government and 204 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:07,440 US agree that government, politicians, media academics, or anyone else 205 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:13,000 supplying labels such as misinformation, disinformation, or malinformation to speech 206 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:19,000 does not render it constitutionally unprotected. So can that is 207 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,799 part of this agreement, so that we're not going to 208 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,519 I don't think credibly be able to hear from any 209 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:29,720 future administration that anything different. And then paragraph twenty two, 210 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:34,759 for these reasons, the government cannot take actions formal or informal, 211 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,600 directly or indirectly, except as authorized by law, to threaten 212 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,639 social media companies with some form of punishment. And then 213 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,039 it lists all the type of sanctions they can threaten 214 00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:48,519 unless they remove, delete, suppress, or reduce, including through altering 215 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,639 their algorithms, posted social media content containing protected free speech. 216 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,039 I think those two paragraphs are just home runs. You know, 217 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,440 there's some things in here we can discuss that are 218 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,279 not I say, it could have been a Grand Slam 219 00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:04,759 if we'd wanted Supreme Court. But it's a home run overall. 220 00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:05,799 That's the way I put it. 221 00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: Because it's a home it's a home run. John, I 222 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,240 think because you have a judge signing on to this, 223 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,559 no question. You had an executive order, and it was 224 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,240 a good executive order by President Donald Trump. But as 225 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:23,879 you know, executive orders are very much subject to change, 226 00:14:23,919 --> 00:14:28,759 particularly in modern day politics. What we saw when Biden 227 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,960 got into office, he undid everything that Trump put into 228 00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:35,440 executive order, and then he did the same to Biden 229 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,799 when he got into office, so that could have just disappeared. 230 00:14:38,159 --> 00:14:43,399 This now has to use the phrase that you guys 231 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:47,559 struggled with. This has a lot more standing now, doesn't it. 232 00:14:47,559 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: It does, and it has teeth in a little bit 233 00:14:50,279 --> 00:14:52,600 of teeth. I mean, if we do suspect, like I said, 234 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:54,240 we have to go to the government and say, look, 235 00:14:54,279 --> 00:14:56,279 we think you're doing this, and they have to give 236 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,960 a big given opportunity to cure or show that they're 237 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,440 not doing that. But I do think that the fact 238 00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:06,240 that just that this exists, that the government has agreed 239 00:15:06,279 --> 00:15:09,240 to this, no one else can sue under See early 240 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:12,720 on in litigation Judge Dowdy when he issued his plumer 241 00:15:12,799 --> 00:15:15,440 injunction stopping the government from doing this at the beginning. 242 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,799 You know, after our discovery that I described, he also 243 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,840 found that there was no class action, so he had 244 00:15:23,919 --> 00:15:26,840 knocked out the class action. Unless we wanted to revisit that, 245 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:28,519 we weren't going to be able to do this for 246 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,480 the whole country, because that's what class actions are about. 247 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: Right right. Well, this was no easy feat. Again, you 248 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,840 talk about the years that were involved. When you started 249 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,519 this whole process. When you began this lawsuit, you were 250 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,039 laughed at, you were shamed, You were accused of not 251 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,639 following the science. You were accused of threatening the lives 252 00:15:55,679 --> 00:16:00,000 of Americans through the spread of COVID because you would 253 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:05,240 fight for people who said horribly ridiculous things like standing 254 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,639 six foot away from someone wouldn't stop the spread of 255 00:16:09,679 --> 00:16:12,759 a virus. I mean, it all sounds silly right now, 256 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,519 but it was serious business. What was it like in 257 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:18,919 the early days of this lawsuit for you and for 258 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:19,879 your clients. 259 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I I have always said I'm a 260 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:27,919 lay person, I'm not a scientist, and I always said 261 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,120 that I didn't blame the government for sort of panicking 262 00:16:32,159 --> 00:16:35,399 and doing something for sixty to ninety days. But a 263 00:16:35,399 --> 00:16:37,879 lot of my clients said, who were scientists, said no, 264 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,960 we all knew from the beginning. We all knew this 265 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,519 stuff from the beginning. I know, BECCHIONI, you're being too 266 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,519 lenient with these people. But you know, you know how 267 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:48,879 the government they're not they're not scientists. 268 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: They're not they're not the brightest bulbs, right exactly. 269 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I'm some sort of squish, but I'm usually 270 00:16:55,759 --> 00:16:59,279 willing to give them sixty to ninety days before. I say, 271 00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:02,879 it's off off, off base. But here it had been 272 00:17:02,919 --> 00:17:06,599 a long time. We were trying to stop it in retrospect, 273 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,559 but people were so committed, so committed to their positions 274 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,200 that they wouldn't give an inch. And then they started 275 00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:16,079 covering it, you know, not wanting to hand over anything 276 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,400 in discovery. And that always tells you what you know, 277 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,720 the name of the game is, or I say, usually 278 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,480 tells you sometimes it's attorney client privilege. But that wasn't 279 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,079 that wasn't what they were a legend here. So yes, 280 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,400 it was terrible, and it was terrible for my clients. 281 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,599 It was absolutely terrible to be called all these names, 282 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,720 particularly I mean Jay and Martin. They were some of 283 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,359 the most respected men in their field. And Faucia his 284 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,160 people decided that they were going to make their names 285 00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:47,000 mud And so you know, what do I care, White, 286 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:49,799 I'm a lawyer. People call your names of all time. Who cares? 287 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,440 But I do think that I do think that for 288 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,720 regular Americans it was maybe the first time in their 289 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:00,960 lives that for taking a normal, true position, they had 290 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,440 been kind of hurled into outer darkness. 291 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, just one of the darkest times in American history, 292 00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:15,880 certainly for free speech, certainly for government abuses against the 293 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,440 First Amendment and the oath that they swear in taking 294 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:25,160 their positions in office. Frightening time for a lot of people. 295 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,359 Our guest today is John Vecchioni, Senior Litigation Council for 296 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,759 the New Civil Liberties Alliance, just fresh off of a 297 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:38,039 huge win, huge First Amendment victory over government speech police. 298 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,400 Let me ask you this, What was it like deposing 299 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:45,119 Anthony Fauci. 300 00:18:46,039 --> 00:18:50,279 Speaker 2: All right, so I tell the story a little bit. 301 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,160 So it was over at AHHS. And as we're going 302 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,160 through the screeners at HHS, it's in Maryland, just just 303 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,359 across the border in DC, big big thing. And as 304 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,200 we're going in, uh the to give you some idea 305 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,720 of how, you know, powerful he was at that time, 306 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:09,799 and you know there was all he was on the 307 00:19:09,799 --> 00:19:12,480 cover of the magazines, he was in every TV show, 308 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,440 all the you know, they were all having them on. Oh, 309 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,759 doctor Fauci tells this that and the other thing. As 310 00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:19,640 we go into AHHS, the lady at the desk, as 311 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,839 we're going I said, oh, we're going to see doctor Fauci. 312 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:25,880 She says he's such a wonderful man. And uh, and 313 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:28,799 I had to restrain my colleague, who doesn't think he's 314 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,319 such a wonderful man. But that was I mean, it 315 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,759 was just like a hushed is Fauci. So we went 316 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,200 up there and now Governor Landry, he was the head 317 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,759 of the a G was there and he had with 318 00:19:40,839 --> 00:19:44,680 him h. R. F. K. Junior's book the Real Doctor 319 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,920 Fauci that he had up standing in front of him 320 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,359 during the whole deposition that John Sower took, which which 321 00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:54,279 it did seem to bother Fauci, but I did think 322 00:19:54,319 --> 00:19:59,119 it was it was quite respectable. Also, the ag in 323 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240 Missouri was there. It was you know, all the all 324 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,039 the attorneys were there, and John Soyer had all the 325 00:20:05,079 --> 00:20:07,759 documents and he went through with Fauci. And we've later 326 00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:10,680 found that we don't think he was very truthful in 327 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,599 his memory certainly was not as good. He has a 328 00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:17,079 great memory. And I will say this for doctor Fauci. 329 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,680 He was in his nineties when we deposed him, and 330 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,200 he went the whole eight hours, uh, not flagging, not tiring, 331 00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:27,319 not anything. So the guy is in tremendous health, whatever 332 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,319 else I may say about him. But but I do 333 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:35,640 say this he was in defense mode, and he the 334 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,680 real thing here was there was email exchanges between him 335 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,720 and subordinate about stopping Jay Bardicharia and Martin couldorf from 336 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,319 the Brownstone statement, which was the normal statement of how 337 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:52,920 you deal with pandemics that are respiratory and and and 338 00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:55,240 they really wanted to shut him, shut him down and 339 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:58,519 push back on that. And it is not they And 340 00:20:58,559 --> 00:21:00,920 he says I never sent any email to social media. 341 00:21:01,039 --> 00:21:03,799 He says he didn't use them. I suspect now that 342 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:07,359 he has private emails that he has is his secretary 343 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,680 used But he didn't say that. But I will say this, 344 00:21:09,839 --> 00:21:16,480 it was a very dramatic time, and the whole question 345 00:21:16,559 --> 00:21:21,000 of whether the virus was created in a Chinese lab 346 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,559 with funds from AHHHS, he was very very nervous about. 347 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:28,880 I will say that that was nervous. I do think. 348 00:21:29,519 --> 00:21:32,920 I do think that there are two things going on there. 349 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,960 I just want to be fair about this. I think 350 00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:38,960 funds went to HHS, but the timing to create this 351 00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:42,079 virus may not be there. So I think he was 352 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,279 trying to avoid saying that, yeah, we give all this 353 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:50,640 stuff to the to their virus experiments, but we didn't 354 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,319 do this one, and but that's a harder cell than 355 00:21:55,599 --> 00:21:57,359 oh no, we didn't do any of that. So it 356 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,000 was more like we didn't do any of that. And 357 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:01,160 then and you know, the IRIS couldn't have been formed 358 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,880 in a lab type stuff. Yeah, I don't think I 359 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,440 don't think it's true, and I don't think he believes that. 360 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,039 Speaker 1: Well, I mean again, that was the cover for so long, 361 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:17,319 and then even the Biden administration government agencies had to say, 362 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:22,160 you know, no, not so much, doctor Fauci. 363 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,319 Speaker 2: And and don't forget. So we're pressing him, we're pressing 364 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,960 them for their documents. But social media is also not 365 00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:32,920 on our side. They are resisting, resisting, resisting, so that 366 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:35,880 everything was a fight, and since we ensued them, the 367 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,079 third parties have more protection against handing over information. So 368 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,079 it was very hard and time consuming to try to 369 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,839 get things out of social media companies to contradict what 370 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,279 the government was saying, and they didn't want to. Now, 371 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:52,240 after the administration change, suddenly Zuckerberg and everyone's saying, oh, yeah, 372 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:54,920 we were terribly pressured. We shouldn't have done that, right, 373 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,400 But I do want to tell you one thing about 374 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,359 social media that I think you'll be shocked by. I 375 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,279 was shocked by because I have certain prejudices about social media. 376 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:08,119 I thought that the Biden administration and social media would 377 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,799 be cheek by jal and handing glove on this stuff, 378 00:23:10,839 --> 00:23:12,839 and it would be pushing on an open door to 379 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,759 censor Americans for stuff the Democratic administration didn't want. That 380 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,160 was not true. At the very beginning of this, the 381 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,519 social media companies, first with Trump and then with Biden, 382 00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:26,279 we're saying, hey, do we really need to do that? 383 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,440 Maybe we shouldn't be doing this. There are emails, including 384 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,599 from Nick Klagg a Facebook. Now he's a British politician 385 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:39,519 who was very big in UK politics and he went 386 00:23:39,559 --> 00:23:42,000 to work for Facebook, and he's getting these calls from 387 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:45,119 the White House saying shut this down, shut that down, 388 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:47,240 and and he writes an email and he says, we 389 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,880 think there are First Amendment problems with telling Americans not 390 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,160 to say this that or the other thing, or downgrading 391 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,559 their social media. And the White House is emailing back, 392 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,000 you know, nonetheless shut it down. So it wasn't the 393 00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:05,359 case that the social media, which I would think would 394 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,200 just go yeah, that was not the case. Then there 395 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,839 was so much pressure put on them that I think 396 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,480 it's like July twenty twenty two, something like that. They 397 00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:15,799 all broke down and did what the White House wanted. 398 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: After that, were you guys being suppressed trying to get 399 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:24,960 the word out there on social media while you were 400 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,200 going through the depth of. 401 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: Oh this is good, this is good. You remind me 402 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,720 of so many stories. So we had John Souer over 403 00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:36,119 to our offices at the New Civil Liberties Alliance and 404 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,279 we had some of our clients and we had a 405 00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:41,079 discussion of what we had found in the litigation and 406 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,119 what we were trying to do in front I think 407 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,680 it was in front of the Fifth Circuit Dowdy had 408 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:47,640 ruled on his Pilmer injunction. We're going up and so 409 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,920 we're talking about, like I just said, about the Chinese 410 00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:54,480 lab theory and things like that. That's what we were 411 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,839 discussing because they were part of the case. We weren't 412 00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:00,519 pushing one or the other. We're just describing what was ungraded. 413 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:08,359 YouTube took ncla's YouTube video discussing the case off of 414 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,079 YouTube and gave us a warning saying we were doing 415 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,440 misinformation and we could not we could not have that 416 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,240 YouTube video discussing the case that was going to the 417 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,079 Supreme Court. So think about that. A matter of public 418 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,839 concern about a case that's filed in federal court that 419 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,880 is being followed by so many news organizations around the 420 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,640 country and YouTube panics and takes us off. We had 421 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,079 I think we had to spend something like two or 422 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,400 three days pointing out all this nonsense and getting it 423 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,920 put back on. But I think it was still downgraded 424 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:47,839 by the algorithm. Can you imagine. 425 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:47,599 Speaker 3: Twelve point seven percent of US credit card balances are 426 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:51,079 how Ley watched Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. 427 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,960 Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 428 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,559 the economy and how it affects your wallet. So American's 429 00:25:56,599 --> 00:25:59,680 credit card balances are experiencing late fees to the highest 430 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:03,039 level since twenty eleven. More and more people are falling 431 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:06,319 behind as people are over ninety days late. Not a 432 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,559 good sign. Whether it's happening in DC or down on 433 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:10,240 Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 434 00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:10,839 Speaker 2: Be informed. 435 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,039 Speaker 3: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 436 00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:16,039 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 437 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: That is an absolute assault on the First Amendment. And 438 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,839 I am particularly disgusted by the fact that the answer 439 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,559 from the White House, the answer from I shouldn't say 440 00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:35,839 the White House at that time, but the answer from 441 00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:41,200 these agencies and these scientists was, we don't care if 442 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,400 it's a violation of the First Amendment. Were they You 443 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,200 mentioned the idea of panic, and I guess I get 444 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,359 that you're dealing with a pandemic. You're dealing with something 445 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,920 that you hadn't really experienced to this extent for what 446 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,519 one hundred years, trying times in the first thirty sixty days. 447 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,480 All of that said, did they use the cover of 448 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,599 COVID for so much, even long after they knew that? 449 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:17,359 What did the emails? What did the documents say about that? 450 00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 2: Well, what they say is this idea of the malinformation 451 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,440 and misinformation. I'll give you an example. There was there 452 00:27:25,559 --> 00:27:29,279 was a meme or a rumor or something that the 453 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,279 vaccines put microchips in your bloodstream and changed your brain 454 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,559 to do what the ruling faction wanted you to do. Now, Matt, 455 00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:40,240 I don't think that's true. 456 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, hold on, John, I'm getting a 457 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:44,759 message from the microchip. 458 00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:48,279 Speaker 2: I don't think that's true. But you know what, that's 459 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:50,400 free speech. You're allowed to say that. 460 00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:55,759 Speaker 1: You bet. Listen, there's so many idiotic things in social media. 461 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,680 If we had to block every stupid, weird conspiracy out there, 462 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:02,920 nobody would get anything done. 463 00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 2: But once they had gotten on to this malinformation misinformation, 464 00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:12,279 and I think also the Russia laptop thing really played 465 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:16,000 into this, really played into this. The bureaucrats and the 466 00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:22,519 people involved really did believe that if something was malinformation, misinformation, disinformation, 467 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:26,680 they were allowed to suppress it, right. They didn't think 468 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,880 that was a free speech problem at all. 469 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: Where do they get this idea though? 470 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,279 Speaker 2: I look, I think part of it was from foreign policy. 471 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,440 I think it was the national security crowd does have 472 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:43,880 Russian disinformation which they try to keep out of the country, 473 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,200 all right out from outside the country. But once it's 474 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,599 inside the country, they shouldn't have anything to say about it, 475 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,079 to tell you the truth. I mean, that's just the 476 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,599 matter of once it's inside the country being said by Americans, 477 00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:59,799 that's the end of the day. Now. That is those 478 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:02,799 are terms that have come from the national security, primarily 479 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:06,079 from the Cold War, from agit prop and fighting the 480 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:10,240 communist behemoth. They would say, look, this is disinformation, this 481 00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:12,559 is a false well, all that stuff, false flag, all 482 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:14,759 the stuff you hear on the internet now all comes 483 00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:19,640 from national security stuff, and it leaked into domestic discussion 484 00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:24,640 and discussion and belief by the agencies, I believe, And 485 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,319 they didn't say this, but just following it, and I've 486 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:29,759 been in an old core or myself, I think I 487 00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:35,200 do know how this idea traveled. And I think they 488 00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:38,480 just domesticated something that was supposed to be used against 489 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,079 foreigners and not Americans. 490 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: Now you said this before, and you're absolutely right. I 491 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,240 do find it hard to believe that the social media 492 00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:57,880 giants out there, big tech giants, didn't at some level say, oh, yeah, 493 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,640 this is in the best interest of our interest and 494 00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:05,440 this and that. No, I certainly understand that. I guess 495 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,640 I'm just what I'm saying is I am surprised that 496 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,240 there was any resistance from what I've read of the 497 00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:14,160 Twitter files, for instance. 498 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,759 Speaker 2: That's true, but that most a lot of the Twitter 499 00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:19,759 stuff came after what I call the collapse, the collapse 500 00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:22,559 of a resistance, and there was a period where they 501 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,920 all just collapsed. They'd had it. But the initial pushback 502 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,240 I think was for two things. There was still a 503 00:30:29,319 --> 00:30:34,640 hangover of the information should be free Internet. Some of 504 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:40,119 your listeners may remember before twenty sixteen, twenty fifteen, the 505 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,079 whole Internet was supposed to make all information free and 506 00:30:43,119 --> 00:30:48,039 everybody's gonna, you know, have open access to everything, and 507 00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:49,799 that was kind of the promise of it. I think 508 00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:51,480 there was still some of that. And I think the 509 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:55,400 other thing is which a Supreme Court did not understand, 510 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,960 which is all these organizations make their money on eyeballs. 511 00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:01,799 When they take eyebs away from their product, they are 512 00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:05,640 throwing dollars out the window. They have a financial interest 513 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,640 in people thinking that they're going to see what's what's 514 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,839 actually on there, and that they're going to be able 515 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,240 to speak freely. That is actually a selling point. So 516 00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:16,880 they're not going to go do this. This is why 517 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,400 I always bring up Jill Hines. She had outward facing posts, 518 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,920 but she also had an internal discussion, and that internal 519 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:30,519 discussion could not, under any circumstances, could not, under any circumstances, 520 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,799 be seen by anyone else. So no one had an 521 00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:37,599 interest in quashing it except the government. Mm hmm. 522 00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it's interesting. They certainly, at least from 523 00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:45,680 from what I've seen being in the media business for longer, 524 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:51,400 than I'd like to acknowledge. You know, the government had, 525 00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:54,880 particularly in the Biden era, they had all the assistance 526 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,640 they could possibly ever want, and more from the corporate media, 527 00:31:58,799 --> 00:32:01,400 what I like to call the accountless media. They were 528 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:06,039 more than that. And I remember the different you know, 529 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,440 news outlets and the morning talk shows, the view and 530 00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:14,440 all of those sorts of things. And we heard over 531 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,799 and over again, for instance, about COVID, how you know, 532 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,960 terrible it was that you had people going on social media. 533 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,200 They were defending these policies even when they knew that 534 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:33,680 these companies, driven by the federal government were just dismantling 535 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:40,079 First Amendment and free speech. What I'm really interested to know, 536 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:42,240 and this is the question I've asked so many times 537 00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:44,680 in so many different areas over the last several years. 538 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:51,359 Do you believe that doctor Fauci and Collins and the 539 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,720 rest of the hundred plus names that you got out 540 00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:59,720 of this investigation, will they ever be held accountable? 541 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,319 Speaker 2: Not? They won't be held accountable by either civil or 542 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,960 or criminal judgments. I think they'll be accountable in history. 543 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,160 I think some of them already have. I mean, you 544 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,640 look at the adulation that Fauci had at the time, 545 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,279 and that has dropped off. I think that they're not 546 00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:29,440 really held as high regard but in public esteem. But 547 00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,599 I think that I think one thing this consent decree 548 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,240 does is it is a public rejection of all the 549 00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:42,440 premises of the censorship that were promulgated by those individuals, 550 00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:46,480 and so I think that's very important. It all that 551 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,880 everything that they underlawed. Because I'll tell you this, I 552 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,519 don't know about Fauci, but it's definitely true of the 553 00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:57,319 woman who's the siss of people and the woman who 554 00:33:57,359 --> 00:33:59,359 is going to be put I'm forgetting her name right now, 555 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,799 the Mary people and singer. She loved being in charge 556 00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:06,599 of all the Americans and what they could do and 557 00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:10,159 what they could not do. There was for a lot 558 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,840 of these people the idea that they could control other 559 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,480 people's lives through this was I think a frison of 560 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:21,320 power that just thrilled them. And so they don't have 561 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,760 that anymore, and I don't think they'll have it again, 562 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,280 and I certainly hope they won't. So I do think 563 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,480 that the fact that Elon brought bought Twitter, and that 564 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,440 I think Zuckerberg feels chastised. Now He's not He's not 565 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,639 going to jump onto any bandwagons anytime soon. It strikes 566 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,960 me that the government does. He's going to go and say, look, 567 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,440 this is what's happening and see where people land or fight. 568 00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:52,119 So I do think that there have been lessons learned. 569 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,000 The question is how long do those lessons last, because 570 00:34:55,119 --> 00:34:58,000 you know, everyone forgets everything after ten years, and it's 571 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,880 probably shorter now than ten years. But I do think 572 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,559 that for right now, there's enough people with memories of 573 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:08,800 this that they won't so quickly jump on it. And 574 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,400 as I said, this consent order signed by a federal 575 00:35:12,519 --> 00:35:15,079 judge says here's things the government should not be doing 576 00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:18,119 in regards to speech, and that is going to have 577 00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:20,800 a powerful We get to enforce it for ten years, right, 578 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,920 and then it'll expire. If they've broken a bunch of times. 579 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,480 I guess we'll try to have it renewed. But the 580 00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:30,119 fact is that by its terms it ends in ten years. 581 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,000 But that's a couple of administrations right there. So I 582 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:38,360 think that at least we'll waive it around in whatever 583 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,760 circumstances we can. But I also think that other First 584 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:47,480 Amendment advocates should be citing it, say, look, they agreed 585 00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:51,159 to this what has changed, what has changed, and nothing 586 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:53,639 will have changed as to the principles of the First Amendment. 587 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they should keep fighting for it and keep 588 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,159 fighting for it. I think it should be in perpetuity. 589 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,960 You know, that's not what it is right now. But 590 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,639 I'm hoping that you have people well in advance in 591 00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:10,800 this country who are fighting for the continuation of this thing. 592 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,480 It should just be clear. You shouldn't have to have 593 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:21,239 a court order, consent decree, a negotiated Greek agreement that 594 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,360 says the government will not break the First Amendment to 595 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,280 the Constitution. And I know the government certainly has on many, 596 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:37,079 many different occasions, but this was such a just a 597 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:42,559 massive abuse of power. It's amazing. One guy who is 598 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,840 definitely celebrating this victory today is Senator Eric Schmidt, as 599 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,480 you know, Oh yeah, he was Missouri's attorney general at 600 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,599 the time, and he originally sued the Biden administration for 601 00:36:55,639 --> 00:36:59,639 what he called brazenly colluding with big tech to silence 602 00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:02,559 miss Urians. This is what he had to say in 603 00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:05,840 a statement yesterday. This is a massive win for the 604 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,639 First Amendment and for every American who believes in free speech. 605 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:17,840 He said that the government particularly Biden's tenure in government. 606 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:23,960 His administration brought the most aggressively liberal in anti liberty 607 00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:29,519 excesses of government that America has ever seen. Now, you've 608 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:35,719 been involved in a lot of cases that showcase the 609 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:41,400 excesses of government anti liberty issues. Would you agree with 610 00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:43,519 Senator Schmid on that in the. 611 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 2: Post Civil war area? I would agree. So I have 612 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,639 a longer historical memory. I don't know if the Aliens 613 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,440 edition acts. I'm as far as percentage of the population 614 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:55,920 and number of people it has to be the biggest, 615 00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:59,880 it has to be. I just hesitate on some of 616 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,840 the historical things. But okay, one hundred and fifty years, 617 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,239 the Senator and I agree, this has really been huge, 618 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,159 and the number of people it affected is just I 619 00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:12,639 don't think there's anything that compares with it. 620 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,199 Speaker 1: What I'm curious about is something you talked about before 621 00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:20,239 when you originally started on this legal path. You took 622 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,239 it to Ohio. That court there said sorry, you don't 623 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,360 have standing, which I found amazing at that point, and 624 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,719 then you get it to the Supreme Court after you 625 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:35,840 have this injunction from a lower court. The Biden administration 626 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,320 challenges that it goes to the Supreme Court and the 627 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,599 majority ruling, which was written by Justice Amy Cony. Barrett 628 00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:48,840 again said, yeah, this could be a problem, but A, 629 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,119 you don't have standing. B how do you know what 630 00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:58,639 the social media operators were thinking when that verdict, when 631 00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:02,440 that ruling came in. What was your thought, because clearly 632 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,519 it wasn't to give up at that point. 633 00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:07,519 Speaker 2: You kept fighting, right And I will so I had 634 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:10,840 two thoughts. The first thought was do they know how 635 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,039 these social media companies make their money? That was the 636 00:39:13,119 --> 00:39:18,719 first thing. But also I felt that we would have 637 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,119 to go back and find the standing, and particularly we 638 00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:25,360 would have to get more detailed discovery. And I will 639 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,239 say this the press and everyone said, and I also 640 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,639 pointed out immediately the dissent said there was standing and 641 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,760 also then also said that this was a huge First 642 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,760 Amendment violation. So every judge in the Fifth Circuit, Judge Dowdy, 643 00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:46,239 District Court, every judge to reach the question I'm the 644 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,079 Supreme Court said that this was a violation of the 645 00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:51,000 First Amendment. And I'll just tell you something that happened 646 00:39:51,039 --> 00:39:56,480 or all argument. Ben Aguinagua, ben Aguenaga is the This 647 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,599 was the new Solicitor General when Liz Morel got bumped 648 00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:01,880 up to a G, and Landry got bumped up to governor. 649 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,400 He became s G. And he argued this case in 650 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:09,559 the Supreme Court and UH. While while this argument was 651 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:13,039 going on in front of them, Kavanaugh and Kagan were 652 00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:15,360 both going back and forth with how many times they 653 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,000 called newspapers when they were in the administration, one for 654 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,239 the second Bush and one for Clinton and UH or Obama. Well, Clinton, Clinton, 655 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,320 I think so any event, So so all of a sudden, 656 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,079 Roberts jumped in. He says, I want to be very clear, 657 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:37,199 when I was in government, I never censored anybody. I 658 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,679 put it on the record. I do think that the 659 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,119 standing is important. And the thing is with Barrett is 660 00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:48,559 she does this to everyone. I you know that meme 661 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,960 that they have where she's holding up the pad showing 662 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,320 she has no notes during her and and so people 663 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,519 will write things, write things in there to be what 664 00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:01,480 what I what I always put with it is no injunctions. 665 00:41:02,519 --> 00:41:06,559 So this is not ideological with her. She seems to 666 00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:09,280 be very rigorous on every point. And I would say, 667 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,360 in this standing thing, I think she really got it 668 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,599 wrong obviously, But I don't think it's I don't think 669 00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:19,960 it's like everyone's priors in that case are discernible from 670 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,840 other things they've done. So I don't want anyone to 671 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,599 think that the people in the majority in Murphy v. 672 00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:30,960 Missouri were, you know, making it up to defend the government. 673 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,840 I don't think that, but I think that it was 674 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,800 very naive the underlying assumptions of how things work. 675 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you've been very generous through the time. I 676 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,920 appreciate it. I just wanted to for closing thoughts, what 677 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:49,719 is next in the battle for liberty? Including something we 678 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:55,320 mentioned before, This battle for speech for the First Amendment 679 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,159 is far from over again. 680 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,159 Speaker 2: Counsel, I'll tell you this. The reason this was so 681 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,760 insidious was because it was a bank shot. Private parties 682 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,199 can not say or say whatever they want, right, So 683 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,440 you can't sue private parties for saying or not saying 684 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,039 things for very good reason. That's part of freeom of speech. 685 00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:20,119 But the government is not allowed to censor it. But 686 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,760 what happens when a huge administrative state that reaches its 687 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,119 fingers into every part of American life starts pressuring people 688 00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:31,480 to say or not say things, and this standing issue 689 00:42:31,559 --> 00:42:33,039 is going to come up again. It'll come up in 690 00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:36,840 the Federalist case. Although I will say this the newspapers, 691 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,440 I think in your newspaper. I know, I know you're 692 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,159 not the mainstream media, but your newspaper as far as 693 00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:46,880 the as far as the first amendments concerned, I think 694 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,280 you guys will have a better chance of getting standing 695 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,559 in the future. That's that's kind of how I look 696 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:55,000 at this. I think that the press has always been 697 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,840 given a little more latitude on standing issues and a 698 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,960 lot of issues. So maybe that's the approach we take 699 00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:03,440 next time. But I also think that we have to 700 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,880 figure out a way to do it faster, because in 701 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,360 this case, the EO came out right said we're not 702 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,760 going to do this anymore. We have arguments against that 703 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,440 because you know, as you pointed out, eos come and go. 704 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,960 They're not a permanent solution, and the person who stopped 705 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,079 doing it for this period could start doing it again, 706 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:22,280 and you want an order that stops it, you know, permanently, 707 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,960 like our order. So I do think that we have 708 00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:29,639 to address this problem of the courts taking so long 709 00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:33,280 that circumstances change and then the government either is going 710 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,480 to argue mootness or it's going to argue mootness from 711 00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:39,639 what it does. Or look who in this country is 712 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,760 right now defending the Hunter Biden laptop as Russian disinformation? 713 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,719 Right that the issue has kind of gone away, So 714 00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:49,719 you want to avoid that. So you want to get 715 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,920 these things into court faster, and you want to somehow 716 00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:56,159 move the ball quicker so that it doesn't take this long. 717 00:43:56,599 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: I know the one guy I just thought of him, 718 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:04,559 Adam Adam Schiff. I think he's the last, the last 719 00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:09,039 holdout on that front. Well, you know, this really did this, 720 00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:12,519 the battles that you engaged in, this whole fight over 721 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,920 this critical First Amendment issue really did expose the administrative state. 722 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,079 If anything. That's that's one of the big takeaways is 723 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:27,480 that we have in this government too much government, too 724 00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:33,039 much bureaucracy, and it controls things in a way that 725 00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:39,440 is detrimental, deletarious to the US Constitution and civil liberties. 726 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,280 Thanks to my guest today, John Becchioni, you bet, senior 727 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,079 Litigation Council for the New Civil Liberties Alliance, which just 728 00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:53,280 won a huge First Amendment victory over government speech police. 729 00:44:53,639 --> 00:44:56,320 You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 730 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,199 I'm Matt Kittles, Senior Elections correspondent at The Federalist. We'll 731 00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:03,119 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 732 00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:05,159 freedom and anxious for the fray. 733 00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 2: I heard the fame, voice the reason, and then it 734 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:18,840 faded away.