1 00:00:03,439 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: True crime Bullshit is off this week, but I wanted 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,439 to pop in and announce my newest Trova trip. On 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,759 June thirteenth of twenty twenty six. We are going to Iceland, 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,960 And when I say we, I mean you, Me and 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,640 Shana and Tooks from the research team, and Sydney Copp 6 00:00:21,719 --> 00:00:25,320 who helped identify Christopher Roof. For as long as I 7 00:00:25,359 --> 00:00:28,280 can remember, Iceland has been number one on my travel 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,960 list and it still somehow eluded me for all these years. 9 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,600 So I'm inviting you to come experience Iceland with me 10 00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:41,679 for the very first time. Will visit secret geothermal lagoons, waterfalls, geysers, 11 00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:45,840 the Continental Rift, and black sand beaches littered with icebergs. 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,439 We'll take a private boat tour, see the glaciers, see 13 00:00:49,439 --> 00:00:52,759 puffins and hang out and rekivic. It will be I'm 14 00:00:52,799 --> 00:00:57,000 sure a life changing six days. Tickets go on sale 15 00:00:57,079 --> 00:01:00,600 at noon Eastern today, but because of pre sale there's 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,680 actually only a few tickets left, so reserve your spot asap. 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,640 Check out the link in the show notes or on Instagram. 18 00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:29,400 I cannot wait to see you in Iceland. This is 19 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:37,480 a studio both and production. Well, why don't you start 20 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,239 with you know, how did you come to know Israel 21 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:47,599 Keys and his family? In January of twenty twenty five, 22 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,560 I got an email from a childhood friend of Israel 23 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,680 Keys who were calling Scott. Scott had just listened to 24 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:58,319 the season six episode two hundred seconds, and he thought 25 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,000 he might have some helpful information surrounding Israel's February two 26 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:08,280 thousand and four trip to Utah. Scott's parents have been 27 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,280 friends with Heidi and John Jeffrey Key since the seventies, 28 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,159 and his mother is still in contact with Heidi to 29 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:19,360 this day. Scott grew up in Utah, but he and 30 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,879 his siblings spent their summers on the Keys compound in Calville, 31 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,639 specifically in the mid nineties, during both Scott's and Keys' 32 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:32,280 most formative years. The more that Scott and I talked, 33 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:34,599 the more clear it became that he had a lot 34 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,159 of very important information beyond just the scope of that 35 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:44,360 two thousand and four Utah trip, not just in understanding 36 00:02:44,439 --> 00:02:48,439 Keys and his family dynamics, but also in understanding his 37 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:54,919 crimes and in some critical cases, even his timeline. We 38 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,599 were at first just going to use segments of this interview, 39 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,000 and then we decided to play the entire interview following 40 00:03:01,039 --> 00:03:04,639 our look into Hunters and the Christian identity movement. But 41 00:03:04,719 --> 00:03:07,240 as the researchers and I re listened to my two 42 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:11,560 hour conversation with Scott, it became clear that this would 43 00:03:11,599 --> 00:03:14,759 best set the stage for any and all future conversations 44 00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:20,199 we had about Hunters, Calville, Christian identity, the Keyho Brothers, 45 00:03:21,039 --> 00:03:27,639 and that general time and place in Keysa's life. Because 46 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,000 of the interview length, I've split this up into two episodes, 47 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,439 both of which are available now. In the first episode, 48 00:03:35,439 --> 00:03:38,960 we discussed Keys's early crimes, his relationship to the land 49 00:03:39,039 --> 00:03:42,000 and culture that he grew up in his time in Utah, 50 00:03:42,599 --> 00:03:46,960 pipe bombs, and more. And in the second episode, we 51 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,000 dive into moments in Keysa's childhood that would be greatly 52 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,520 impactful in his adult years, and the Keys We've all 53 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,319 come to know through the lens of his crimes and interviews, 54 00:03:57,039 --> 00:04:04,240 most specifically his sexuality, his victimology, his relationship with his parents, religion, 55 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,800 and the first time that Israel Keys ever branded himself 56 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:17,000 This is true crime Bullshit. The serialized Investigation into Israel 57 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:31,199 Keys Season seven, Episode six, My Friend Israel, Part one. 58 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: My parents met and were married in nineteen seventy nine 59 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,800 and Northern Utah, both having lived there at the time. 60 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,199 I am frankly not sure how they came to know 61 00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:48,199 Heidi and Jeff. One of the earlier memories I have, 62 00:04:48,319 --> 00:04:51,639 which is not a memory I enjoy, I think potentially 63 00:04:51,879 --> 00:04:56,279 would have included or revolved around Heidi and one other 64 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,480 person from the Northern Utah community, I and my sister. 65 00:05:01,519 --> 00:05:04,519 I'm the second of nine children, so my sister and 66 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:06,399 I were both taken with my mom up to the 67 00:05:06,439 --> 00:05:10,120 Utah State Capitol, which is directly that way, and we're 68 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,079 giving out small footprint pins as part of the Utah 69 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:19,879 Eagle Forum protesting certain you know, very pro life, and 70 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:22,680 of course I would learn later on in life that 71 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,199 that the pins they were giving out had no representation 72 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,560 of the vibus's actual size during abortion and plenty of 73 00:05:29,639 --> 00:05:34,040 other things like that. So we were eventually homeschooled. I 74 00:05:34,399 --> 00:05:37,600 lived in Northern Utah all of my life growing up, 75 00:05:38,759 --> 00:05:42,519 but my parents had, through whatever channels, gotten to know 76 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,480 Heidi and Jeff. I think had a little bit of 77 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:49,639 like almost a romantic association with that kind of devotion 78 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,279 or something I guess you could say, to a lifestyle, 79 00:05:53,519 --> 00:06:00,839 and so I never saw Colville until their full cabin 80 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:04,720 had been built, So I want to say this is 81 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,439 probably ninety two or ninety three. Frankly, you might know 82 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,199 some of that time frame better than I do. And 83 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,560 if you know or have seen the pictures of the 84 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,920 tiny little cabin the Israel built up at the higher elevation, 85 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,759 so that that showed up in between, you know, we'd 86 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,079 go spend a fair amount of our summers up there, 87 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,279 and so it was right around that time, and I 88 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,439 would say some of the unique behaviors were certainly exacerbated 89 00:06:35,439 --> 00:06:41,439 once he had that separate space and everything else. So yeah, 90 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,920 so I learned through over hearing phone calls and stuff 91 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:48,519 like that. I think my parents were not supporting them financially, 92 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,279 but we're kind of contributing in certain ways, including just 93 00:06:52,639 --> 00:06:56,839 you know, sending money basically to the Keys family, and 94 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,399 I think part of that was, you know, they they 95 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:01,399 believed in certain. 96 00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:01,879 Speaker 3: Aspects of that. 97 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: Although I think I'm one of maybe two or three 98 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:07,079 of my siblings that was born in a hospital. My 99 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,120 dad was in the military when when I was born, 100 00:07:10,399 --> 00:07:13,959 and my parents were super young at that time, so 101 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,639 so lots of similarities. There One one funny story funny 102 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,279 to me now that I want to get out of 103 00:07:21,279 --> 00:07:25,480 the way. Is I love bikes. I've always loved bikes. 104 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:28,439 They didn't have a ton of stuff like that bike 105 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,720 was the only one that was available to me, and 106 00:07:31,759 --> 00:07:35,480 so I was just cruising around their roads and wiped 107 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,079 out hitting a big rock, basically off roading on a 108 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:40,959 bike that was not at all meant for it. And 109 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,759 Heidi and my mom, I think already felt this was alright, 110 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:47,240 I think to do but put cayenne pepper onto my 111 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:51,240 open wound on my knee, which which was not very comfortable, 112 00:07:51,319 --> 00:07:54,120 but that was the you know. So I've made the 113 00:07:54,199 --> 00:07:57,639 joke since then that you know, if I got hurt, 114 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,040 we would just like kind of rub a stick over it, 115 00:08:00,199 --> 00:08:04,920 and you know that would help it. I did attend 116 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,480 a couple of what I would call a religious events 117 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,120 with them when we were up there, so I don't 118 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:11,759 know if that was ARC. I don't know if that 119 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:14,000 was something else, but I know it was very weird 120 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,120 and my family and a number of my family are 121 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:24,560 still lds. But so there was some code switching that happened. 122 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,879 And I'm observing this even as a child, because I'm 123 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,800 just like this isn't like our normal game plan. And 124 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,399 I have met and spent time with Shane and Chevy Keyhoe. 125 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:39,759 During some of this time. They had a red Chevy 126 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:41,519 box truck at a time that did not have a 127 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,559 back window at all, and I thought they were joking 128 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,639 about it having been shot out. That probably could be true. 129 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,279 I figured they were just you know, I was fair 130 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:52,679 a bit younger than that group, and so I figured 131 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,799 they're just having fun with the younger guy, that not 132 00:08:56,879 --> 00:08:58,200 that they have to let hang out. I was like 133 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,519 close enough in age that I wasn't like, Okay, we 134 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,840 have to take this guy with us. 135 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 3: But I also wasn't like in their peer group. 136 00:09:04,639 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they were all several years older than me, 137 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,879 so Israel being about five years older than me. 138 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 3: So when I first. 139 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: Met him going up to you know, he was probably 140 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,080 fourteen or fifteen about that time frame. 141 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,759 Speaker 1: I already have a ton of questions. So let me 142 00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:26,480 know that it's more helpful. Do you want to circle 143 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:28,159 back or do you just want to keep talking and 144 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:28,919 then circle back. 145 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 2: At the end, I will say I've been swimming a 146 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,000 little bit. There's huge parts of my childhood that are 147 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,480 just gone to begin with, So it is a little 148 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,279 bit of a a grasping at straws at times. But 149 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,080 why don't we Yeah, why don't we go through some 150 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,600 questions and then I think, if anything, that'll help refine 151 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:51,120 where I can be helpful and and where you know, 152 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:56,519 I cause to just to cover the two hundred seconds episode. 153 00:09:56,639 --> 00:09:59,879 I was, ironically enough, living in Maine at the time 154 00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:05,919 as an LDS missionary and didn't even realize that Heidi 155 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,320 and Jeff and you know, I guess Jeff had passed 156 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,879 by that time, did not even realize that they were 157 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,159 in the area. But so I thought that was ironic. 158 00:10:14,159 --> 00:10:18,120 But that's where I was when when Israel visited. The 159 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:21,840 most interesting piece of information I know for sure is 160 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:25,559 that Israel gave my brother Chris, who's now the physician, right, 161 00:10:25,639 --> 00:10:31,600 Chris being a fake name, but so he Israel purchased 162 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,720 a parasunglasses off of my brother, which I thought was 163 00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:37,600 interesting because you know, you had the credit card receipt 164 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:41,639 and cell phone pings and whatever, and so anyways, part 165 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:43,840 of me was just trying to think through that of 166 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,519 I was like, that seems like interesting behavior because I 167 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,039 can see why he wants different, you know, different things 168 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:54,120 to have on hand, but it was strange, and my 169 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,240 brother would would tell you he. 170 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: Was fairly insistent about it for whatever reason. 171 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,399 Speaker 2: Like was it was very clear that he really liked 172 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,360 that pair of sunglasses for whatever set of reasons. 173 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: So do you remember what kind of glasses they were 174 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:07,799 or what they looked like. 175 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,759 Speaker 2: I actually was talking with my mom earlier, and I'm 176 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:16,519 trying to find out if we have pictures from around 177 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:17,000 that time. 178 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,879 Speaker 3: They were certainly not the I think. 179 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: I think Heidi and others were there during that time, 180 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:28,360 but I was I was hoping to find something like that, 181 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,279 and you know, or maybe asked my brother and get 182 00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:35,120 a better sense of that, but I haven't hadn't had 183 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:37,799 a chance to ask him. It would also be interesting 184 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,600 to find, you know, there's several different pictures of him, 185 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,000 and I could also put a few of those in 186 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:44,559 front of him and just be like, any of this 187 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,120 of interest to you, are recognizable. 188 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,399 Speaker 1: To you well, and I would love to see him 189 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,600 as well. So, yeah, during that weekend in February of 190 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,960 four he stayed with your parents in Logan. Do you 191 00:11:57,039 --> 00:11:59,159 remember which days are? For how long. 192 00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: I got the impression that it was it was more 193 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:06,840 or less one day. I don't know that for sure, 194 00:12:06,919 --> 00:12:10,279 and I don't know the time period specifically, which is 195 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,080 a little bit funny to me because my mom, when 196 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:15,639 I had mentioned it to her, she's like, oh, yeah, 197 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:18,279 She's like, I bet I could figure that out almost 198 00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:22,120 exactly because I had a sister. I think this is 199 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,279 part of what interrupted our our lives and kind of 200 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:27,200 our pattern of visiting in the summers. But I had 201 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,960 a younger sibling who passed in February of nineteen ninety seven, 202 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,720 and so having passed on the tenth of February, funeral 203 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:39,799 on the fourteenth, and so kind of my mom has 204 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,080 certain rituals and whatever around that that you know, it's 205 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,919 been part of her process. So I think that's why 206 00:12:44,919 --> 00:12:47,080 she was saying that, you know, she thought about it. 207 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:52,600 She could get the exact date. So yeah, I I 208 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:54,600 want to I almost want to talk to my brothers 209 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,039 a little bit more. I'd tried prouting with her a 210 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,559 little bit, and I would say, it's quite out of 211 00:12:59,639 --> 00:13:01,679 character for me to be too interested in any of this, 212 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:04,399 and so like, I think it's a little bit strange 213 00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:06,799 for my parents. But my brothers, I could be a 214 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,679 little bit more, and a lot of them would have 215 00:13:08,759 --> 00:13:10,080 lived at home at that time. 216 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,759 Speaker 1: And do you I mean you probably don't, but it 217 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:17,840 would be great. Do you recall, you know, why he 218 00:13:17,879 --> 00:13:19,559 said he was in town or if he said he 219 00:13:19,639 --> 00:13:22,080 was going anywhere before or after his visit. 220 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: That's that's a such a normal question to think of, 221 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,519 And that didn't didn't come to my mind at all 222 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:36,000 when I was, you know, casually bringing this up with yeah, 223 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,759 when we have the family get together, and thankfully my 224 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:42,919 brother was interested in looking for that. I don't know 225 00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:46,559 what to call it, like machete or small scord whatever 226 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:48,080 like so, but. 227 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good point. 228 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: I don't think I remember hearing any semblance of why 229 00:13:55,159 --> 00:13:57,720 he might have needed to be in the area, And. 230 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: It wouldn't would it be characteristic of your family's relationship 231 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,399 with him specifically for him to come just to visit 232 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:04,960 your family. 233 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,759 Speaker 2: It strikes me as very weird, Okay, I the and 234 00:14:12,759 --> 00:14:15,559 And what's interesting is I think when when this all 235 00:14:15,639 --> 00:14:19,399 hit the news, you know, or it was known to people, 236 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,919 you know, like Heidi was very resistant, you know, probably 237 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,519 understandably so in a way, but like it kind of 238 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:31,360 offended my mom in certain ways. There are still components 239 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,600 of that my mom still actively tries to maintain a 240 00:14:34,639 --> 00:14:39,519 relationship with her. They are still friends on Facebook. You know, 241 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,879 when I've revisited this here and there right I've tried 242 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:46,279 to find like just like see what else they've done. 243 00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:49,600 They're kind of just younger and just older than me. 244 00:14:49,679 --> 00:14:53,679 So that's where I fell in the age range. And 245 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,840 I honestly had forgotten about. He was probably born during 246 00:14:57,879 --> 00:15:01,440 the time frame that we were visiting, And so when 247 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,960 Israel will talk about his brothers, it would always throw 248 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,919 me off because I'm like, I feel like there's just one. 249 00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:11,360 But I was like, yeah, I there's probably so many 250 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,799 things about his family and timeline that you could you 251 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,039 could run circles around me. 252 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: But did you in Israel like keep in touch or 253 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,039 was it just kind of like when your families got 254 00:15:23,039 --> 00:15:24,200 together you saw each other. 255 00:15:25,159 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: It was really just when our families got together. I 256 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:29,799 can't believe I didn't start out with this. 257 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: Life's been a little crazy lately, and one thing that 258 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:37,840 helps me unwind corn bread Hemp's CBD gummies. There's a 259 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,399 lot going on in the world right now and at home, 260 00:15:40,679 --> 00:15:45,399 between the holiday season, the post summer malaise, and work intensifying. 261 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:49,000 Sometimes you just need a little extra help relaxing, and 262 00:15:49,039 --> 00:15:52,600 that's exactly what cornbread Hemp has been for me. Easy, 263 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,000 luxurious chill out time. I've always had a very hard 264 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,919 time relaxing, taking a break from intrusive thoughts, getting to sleep, 265 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,759 basically anything revolving around giving my mind and body the 266 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:08,200 rest it so desperately needs. And my corn bread Hemp 267 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,559 cbdgummies have given me just that, a break and time 268 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,759 to regenerate and relax so I can be the best 269 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,200 version of me. Cornbread Hemp cbdgummies are made to help 270 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,600 you feel better, whether it's stress, discomfort, or just needing. 271 00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:24,759 Like I said, a little relaxation and right now, true 272 00:16:24,759 --> 00:16:28,559 crime bullshit listeners can save thirty percent off their first order. 273 00:16:28,879 --> 00:16:33,639 Just head to Cornbreadhemp dot com slash tc bs and 274 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:39,799 use code TCBs at checkout. That's Cornbreadhemp dot com slash 275 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,919 TCBs and code TCBs. 276 00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: So I was always weird about the trips up to Washington, right. 277 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,399 I was like, I'm the second oldest of our family, 278 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:57,919 and it was, you know, whatever we have. We live 279 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,559 in a fairly normal suburban area of northern Utah, and 280 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,799 this is not how other kids are spending their summer 281 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,319 and just like it always struck me as weird, and 282 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,319 I had plenty of other reasons to have friction with 283 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,400 my parents' homeschool around the sixth grade became very burdensome 284 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,759 to me, and that became a pretty big kind of 285 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:21,880 whatever you want to call it, a wedge between us, 286 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,799 I think is the word I was looking for. So ideologically, 287 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:29,240 I've always differed from my parents in that way, and 288 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,960 I am a more sensitive soul. So as part of 289 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,279 all of that, when Shane and Chevy were in the 290 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:40,640 news for their crimes, you know whatever, the first ones 291 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:42,599 that I heard about were in like two thousand and 292 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,680 five or so, the chain of events was my parents 293 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,960 to my older brother, my older brother to me, and 294 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,319 so the same thing happened when after Israel's death, and 295 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,240 the one I think the one direct conversation I've had 296 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,079 with my dad about it was this event where he 297 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,440 talks about how he's known that he was too people 298 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:03,000 and he tells the story of tying the cat up 299 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:05,559 to the tree, shooting it and kind of the strong 300 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,359 reaction from you know, these neighbor friends, and my Dad's 301 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:09,799 just like. 302 00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:11,519 Speaker 3: Do you think that was you? 303 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:14,519 Speaker 2: You know, like, and I just was like, in my head, 304 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:15,880 I just thought it was very funny to me that 305 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,039 my dad hears that story and it's like, oh, it 306 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:19,680 sounds like that bitch Scott like. 307 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: So, but I actually don't think that was me. 308 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: If it was, I'm totally comfortable in my ability to 309 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,720 block things out that it could have been me and 310 00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:34,000 I and I don't have to believe that for myself, 311 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:37,680 but it would not have been uncharacteristic of me if 312 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:40,160 if that happened in front of me. There certainly were 313 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,839 other things that were along the same lines, but that 314 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,640 particular story I can't I can't say with any certainty 315 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,279 involved our family. 316 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned in the pre interview that you had 317 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:55,319 some thoughts about crimes that he may have committed prior 318 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:56,720 to leaving Callville. 319 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 320 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, the honestly the very first summer because everything's like 321 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,359 so new, right, I'm seeing like bare wood floors, maybe 322 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,279 they're staying, maybe they're not right. There's we're doing kerosene lamps, 323 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:15,039 like there's not really running water the way we think 324 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,519 about like just everything so like new and weird, and 325 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:21,319 so we turned the upstairs in the house kind of 326 00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:23,960 becomes just a giant open studio, which it kind of 327 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,359 already was, and I think it was even just the 328 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:34,000 first night, and he like procures from somewhere like a 329 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,000 bottle of wild turkey, and so it's like a fifty 330 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,440 you know, fifteen year old kid. You'll never believe how 331 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,799 he came across this. He found it in the woods, right, 332 00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:45,920 somebody had a basically full bottle of wild turkey whiskey. 333 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,640 Was like, I'm probably gonna walk this trail again later. 334 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:51,240 Let me just put this bottle here. It'll be there 335 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,680 when I want it, when I come back for it. 336 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,640 And then you know, Israel stumbles upon it, I guess 337 00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:59,440 is the story. And it wasn't. It wasn't purely performative. 338 00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:01,640 So this is obviously a very low level crime, but 339 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,279 it's it's where where I think is helpful to start, 340 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,119 you know, Like it wasn't like he wanted everybody else 341 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,279 to drink it, or like isn't this this cool, weird 342 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,119 like subversive thing, like nobody tell mom and dad, like 343 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,359 let's all like take a little sip, you know, kind 344 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,000 of like that trying to get the cop to take 345 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,720 a hit of the joint, right, Like I need you 346 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,359 guys in on this so that we're you know, we 347 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,880 have our secret. I think it was plenty enough for 348 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,160 him that he had it. I'm sure he had drank 349 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,359 some prior to that, but it seemed important to be like, hey, 350 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:33,839 I found this, I'm going to drink a little bit 351 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,359 of it. Oh it does burn like that kind of thing, 352 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,880 almost like a status setting of sorts. So I thought 353 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:47,160 that was very interesting. Other crimes that I'm like very 354 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:52,240 much aware of, we had so one thing I'll mention 355 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,720 I we pretty much always had guns on us. The 356 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,480 style of gun that you see in his kill kit 357 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,039 that was recovered, Like he had a black, you know, 358 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,839 plastic rubber coated whatever you want to call it, ten 359 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,119 twenty two with a folding stock, and that's like what 360 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,559 I would use all the time. We would shoot, you know, 361 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,680 soda cans or whatever else, and we could, you know, 362 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,279 we were kind of just living out our wild West 363 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,759 dreams in some ways, and so as part of our 364 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,799 those shenanigans. There were different times this wasn't a super 365 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:33,279 common thing, but I remember maybe like the third or 366 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:36,079 fourth year that we had gone up here up there, 367 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:41,519 and it's basically ninety two to nineties. I'm trying to 368 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:43,079 think if we would have been up there in ninety seven, 369 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,319 so it was probably ninety two to ninety six. We're 370 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,519 up there, like, you know, somewhere between a week to 371 00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:53,000 three weeks, kind of depending on what's going on at 372 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,200 the time, and so we you know, Israel's like aware 373 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,640 of this cabin. We go there. We destroyed property. I 374 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,519 participated in that. It's what was happening. There'd be like 375 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:07,240 someone who's in the process of building, whether it's a 376 00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:10,240 hunting cabin or something else. But there were windows that 377 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,079 were like stacked in a certain area of it. We 378 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,119 damaged the windows the other things, and we were making 379 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,359 a fire basically out on the front steps. We're not 380 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,759 even hanging out in this like slowly being built cabin 381 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,400 and just making a fire whatever. Like I just think 382 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,440 of that later on in life, like what that must 383 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,880 be like to come back to being like I have 384 00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:34,119 this really remote asking, like I didn't even think of 385 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,640 this as a possibility, like who's even. 386 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,079 Speaker 3: Wandering around here kind of a thing. 387 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:46,799 Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is this is totally fictional, although 388 00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:51,279 maybe informed by reality. I'm sure we told ghost stories. 389 00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:53,680 We were there late, right, we kind of claimed the 390 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,000 places our own in my mind and so clearly that 391 00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:01,319 it feels like it's an actual memory. He had a 392 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,319 like a snub nose thirty eight like revolver that pretty 393 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,799 much was always shoved in a pocket or in front 394 00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:09,839 of his pant like whatever. He's just always had it 395 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,440 on him'd be very strange for him to not And 396 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:16,599 I remember he like was playing with it in a 397 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,640 way that like I think caused me to be nervous 398 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,279 or like lose attention to anything else because I'm just like, 399 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,319 we're not about to shoot cans or whatever else, Like 400 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,039 why is this guy like you know, like somebody might 401 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:29,559 fidget with a pocket knife or something. Yeah, but in 402 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:32,519 my mind's eye, and I don't remember what would have 403 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:34,640 really happened, but this is the memory I walked away 404 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,240 with to kind of be quate. I guess maybe my 405 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,640 level of discomfort was, like I'm sitting on a sideways 406 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,240 turned log right kind of upright, so I'm sitting on 407 00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:49,200 it like a stool, and you know, he's saying whatever 408 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,799 kind of not really intimidating. He was never outright like 409 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:57,000 mean or controlling or like you know, anything like that 410 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,400 that to me directly, But this weird kind of control 411 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,519 thing and then he basically just like berries like one 412 00:24:04,519 --> 00:24:06,559 of the shots into the stump that I'm sitting on, 413 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,240 and I somehow like you know, imprinted this is a 414 00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:12,160 memory of like, you know, maybe it was one of 415 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,279 my potential concerns and I was like had long enough 416 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:18,079 to contemplate it that it like felt very real. That 417 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,640 feels like a funny story to tell you in a 418 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:25,200 way because it didn't actually happen, but it's it's very 419 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,279 you know, recurring thing for me and a strange, strange event. 420 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:35,799 So as far back as the first year we were there, 421 00:24:35,839 --> 00:24:38,599 we would make pipe bombs. That was like, you know, 422 00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:42,240 I don't even know how to equate it, right, but 423 00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:43,599 it was just like kind of a fun thing. We 424 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,920 had BB guns. They had access to black powder because 425 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,440 they would reload some of their own shells for like 426 00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:52,599 hunting rifles and stuff like that. So when we'd be 427 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,039 done with the CO two cartridge from like a BB 428 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,519 gun or something like that, we'd fill it up with 429 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,680 black powder. They had like waterproof wick and we'd put 430 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,559 like a little bit of clay around it, and a 431 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,279 lot of times what we would do is like cut 432 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,000 different lengths of wick and just go shove it deep 433 00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:12,680 into the mud where he built that smaller that smaller cabin, 434 00:25:13,079 --> 00:25:14,720 and then just see how big of a crater it 435 00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:19,319 would blow in the dirt. And then two or three 436 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,799 years later, whenever it was in this he would take 437 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,000 us to like a fence line and you know he 438 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,920 had already blown the lock off, or he would do 439 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,480 it while we were there, and he'd like, go up 440 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,079 and do it. Well, we're all hanging back kind of 441 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,039 a thing, and then we'd go explore this other property. 442 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:40,960 He did keep a couple of quote unquote trophies from 443 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,440 birds that he should not have killed. I don't know 444 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,599 that he ever, you know, intentionally, well, I don't know 445 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,759 that he ever killed a bald eagle period. I know 446 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,160 it was a conversation. I know there were some other 447 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,559 protected birds that he had killed that were like, you know, 448 00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:57,279 he'd put like one of the claws on a necklace 449 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,799 or something, and he could have been telling us stories too, 450 00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:02,839 but that was kind of this. 451 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:04,799 Speaker 3: Is more more run of the mill. 452 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 2: But yeah, those were a number of the things. 453 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: I forgive this as a an uninformed question, but like, 454 00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:20,000 how big would these craters be that he was blowing 455 00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:21,119 up into the ground. 456 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:24,559 Speaker 2: And I'm trying to think, I don't know if you're 457 00:26:24,599 --> 00:26:28,839 a cyclist or if you've seen the CO two cartridges. Yeah, 458 00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:33,640 so it's it's a fairly sizable amount of black powder, 459 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,400 right And in terms of like and maybe I want 460 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,880 to say it's terrible analogy to use, but it's what 461 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,000 came to my mind, but like maybe like a home 462 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:47,240 depaut bucket, like right, if it's like if it's very 463 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:50,119 soft soil and stuff like that, if if we were 464 00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:53,000 putting it into pact or I don't know what that 465 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:54,759 would have been, but you know it was it was 466 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,279 enough to be impressive to us, and it was maybe 467 00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:01,359 somewhere around that that kind of side certainly could could 468 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:07,480 cause bodily harm. The other story that I do not 469 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,920 remember that did happen, But my brother is the type 470 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,359 of person I completely trust that he would not lie 471 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,839 about this, and I kind of remember the the after effects. 472 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,559 But some of the shenanigans we would get into is 473 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,480 we would have BB rifles, and I think my family 474 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:30,279 basically acquired BB guns from like going up and visiting 475 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,039 there was a store in Colville or I'm trying to 476 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:38,279 remember the other town up there. There was a big 477 00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:41,200 sporting goods store, and we would sometimes like basically bring 478 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,240 them supplies, right, whether it was like ammunition or other things. 479 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,240 It was not uncommon for us to kind of make 480 00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:48,440 a stop and then haul all that with us up 481 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,720 the mountain. But so we would we would have these guns, 482 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,240 these rifle BB guns that you would pump up, right, 483 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:57,319 so rather than the SEO two, you're just creating some 484 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,799 air pressure. So we would set the rules you can 485 00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:02,000 only pump it twice, and then we played tag with 486 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:02,720 BB guns. 487 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 3: Right. We'd have our. 488 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: Sunglasses or actual safety like construction glasses on and do. 489 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: All of that. 490 00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:11,799 Speaker 2: And the way I remember the story from talking with 491 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:14,400 my brother about it, I think I got something on 492 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,079 Israel that he probably didn't think I would get and 493 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,920 took it a little personally and I'm like hiding in 494 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,160 a bush and he shot me in. 495 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 3: The face with a BB gun. Yeah. 496 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: So the joke that my family's gotten around to making 497 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,240 is just like I think my sister even one time said, oh, yeah, 498 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:33,599 I forgot you were shot in the face by a 499 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:36,359 cereal killer. Like it just that always weirds me out 500 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,480 when it's just like this is two comfortable guys like 501 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,039 I don't like this. 502 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: We've we've we've stumbled past my comfort zone. 503 00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:49,279 Speaker 2: But so yeah, so those were and we still did 504 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:53,960 it afterwards, and I don't remember, like, I genuinely. 505 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,519 Speaker 3: Don't remember being hit by it. I don't remember the 506 00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:56,599 pain or exactly. 507 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: I believe it was my forehead, but uh yeah, I was. Yeah, 508 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,559 an interesting memory, and I guess maybe a good example. 509 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: Cold mornings holiday plans. 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That's q U I ncee 536 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:49,000 dot com slash TCBs, free shipping and three hundred sixty 537 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,680 five day returns quints dot com slash TCBs. 538 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,279 Speaker 2: I have, I have good positive memories of Israel. I 539 00:30:56,279 --> 00:31:00,359 have confusing memories. I have you know, the whole Gamut, right, 540 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,960 he's he's a person, he was an adolescent, you know, 541 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:08,880 developing team. And he's right, he's very tall, and you know, 542 00:31:09,079 --> 00:31:10,519 I think that was part of why I felt like 543 00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:13,000 I was ten years younger than him sometimes rather than 544 00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:14,759 half of that. 545 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,039 Speaker 1: Did you know the key Ho brothers through the Keys 546 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:19,680 family or independently. 547 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 3: Yes, okay, you the Keys family. 548 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: Would you classify as Israel being close with them? 549 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:26,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, that. 550 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:31,519 Speaker 2: Is an interesting question because it's not as though Israel 551 00:31:31,759 --> 00:31:35,759 was close with many people. So in relative terms, they 552 00:31:35,759 --> 00:31:40,720 were best friends, whether they saw each other once a 553 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:43,720 month or a couple of times a year, like, I'm 554 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:47,880 not sure what that looked like, but. 555 00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was. 556 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: And I didn't spend enough time with them to have 557 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,400 a real sense other than they just did seem like 558 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,880 kind of rough, unpredictable, kind of more grown up people 559 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,599 than me and probably not something I would be able 560 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,960 to handle if I was, you know, on my own, 561 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,039 like just just rougher than I would want to hang 562 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:16,279 out with. And I'll say, one of the weird aspects 563 00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,079 of in many parts of my life, being a you know, 564 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:24,960 assists straight. I'm I'm placed myself on the A sexual 565 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,880 spectrum and I will say Israel is probably no small 566 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,599 part of that. There's also lds members of my extended 567 00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:34,480 family that have what I think are credible sexual assault 568 00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:38,920 claims and so just always convoluted that. But part of 569 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,759 it was really just the way they would talk about 570 00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:43,680 some of those things, and none of it was super 571 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,119 graphic or whatever else, but just kind of in general. 572 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:51,240 I could kind of already sense of just like, oh 573 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,400 if this is like the way guys act when they're 574 00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:55,160 on their own, like I'm not going to be good 575 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,279 at this, SORR like whatever, Like this is like huh okay, 576 00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:01,920 I'm gonna have to remember that this is like how 577 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,039 people want to be when they're you know, because I'm 578 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,960 I'm obviously still very much early in my development and 579 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,799 not a very not a very good reference point. 580 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,519 Speaker 1: I mean that begs, you know, not the lightest of questions. 581 00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:19,480 Did you ever get a sense or did you know 582 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,119 that there was any sort of sexual abuse within the 583 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:22,799 Keys family. 584 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:28,799 Speaker 3: I it was very clear to me that there were 585 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,640 two classes of people in the family, and that was 586 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:39,119 very much gender lines, and then there was maybe some 587 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:48,079 cachet around age, but very much And it's kind of 588 00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:51,640 interesting in certain ways. I it would not be. 589 00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:56,799 Speaker 2: For my observations, it would not surprise me if there 590 00:33:56,839 --> 00:34:02,599 were issues within the family or or within you know, 591 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,720 broader community, whether that was their church or whatever else. 592 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,559 I don't think I'm aware of anything directly, but I 593 00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:19,400 do feel like there were a number of like you know, 594 00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:21,639 not even will tell you when you're older kind of stuff. 595 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,719 But it's just like, you know, you'd observe things or 596 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,960 whatever and just be like, I don't understand why Jeff 597 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,719 just said that to to Isaac or is or like 598 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,599 whatever else it was, you know, whoever it was. I'm 599 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:37,400 obviously focusing on Israel here, but it there was certainly 600 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,760 room for that, and it was certainly clear to me 601 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,440 that it was not It's something I was meant to 602 00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:47,679 understand or you know, might might be able to so, 603 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,119 But I I don't have any direct knowledge of that, 604 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,360 and I've I've thought this is this is obviously not 605 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,280 what the topic of this is about. But I was 606 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,360 listening to a podcast, you know, three months ago is 607 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,199 as recent as this was, and this woman was telling 608 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,719 this story about her realization that she had been sexually 609 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,480 molested and in order for her to believe it like 610 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,239 it was a horrible scenario, like it was her, it 611 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,639 was her dad, and he had filmed it and somehow 612 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,880 this had been discovered by you know, a cousin's whoever 613 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,599 that like, so anyways, and they and you know, she 614 00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:34,440 was talking about the kind of her being baffled about that, 615 00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:39,639 and I and I so I've since tried to search 616 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,039 my because I found that arresting in a certain kind 617 00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:44,639 of way. And I want to say, that's more so 618 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,400 because it seems so difficult to believe in a way 619 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,840 that like something so significant could happen and your mind 620 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,679 just decides to protect you from that. So I took 621 00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:56,639 a different lens at the time, and it was just like, 622 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,000 thinking of some of the people I do in my neighbors. 623 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:03,920 There was actually a homeschool mom that was also eventually 624 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,800 served time from our community up in northern Utah who 625 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,760 had been you know, like teaching i'll say, like fitness 626 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,599 or swimming or gymnastics or like something along those lines, 627 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:19,400 and had been you know, sexually assaulting kids, and so 628 00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:21,480 thinking of some of the people in the family whatever else, 629 00:36:21,519 --> 00:36:25,280 I was like, I think it was just stand out 630 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,679 to me in other ways, And I've been searching my 631 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,480 memory recently to think like, were there ever any instances 632 00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:34,320 where Israel and I would have even been alone, or 633 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,159 is there anything I can think of from my side 634 00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:40,880 that would have been you know, like questionable on hindsight of. 635 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 3: Just like, wait, that's not normal. Now. 636 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,519 Speaker 2: What could be totally possibility is that we're out hiking 637 00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:48,960 and we're doing something funny like hey, let's all pee 638 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,920 in the same spot or whatever else, right, and like 639 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,760 very well could have been something like that, and that's 640 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,360 not going to stand out to me. But yeah, so 641 00:36:58,599 --> 00:37:01,400 I thought about that, you know, is as much as 642 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,039 I thought it made sense to and I couldn't arrive 643 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:06,960 at any reasonable, you know, way to think I had 644 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,719 ever been victimized or that I'd ever been present during 645 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,679 during something like that. But I think from some of 646 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:21,920 the conversations and and other things it was I don't 647 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,599 know where I was trying to get with that, but like, 648 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,880 I know, all of that was a lot for me, 649 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,079 even just even just. 650 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 3: What it was for for a kid of my age. 651 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: You had said that keys played no small part in 652 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,039 you being asexual? Can you say more about that? 653 00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: I so, in a in a weird way, I think 654 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,719 what I will say is made me more comfortable with that. 655 00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:56,239 It gave me more license to be okay with that, 656 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:03,480 and that's really I I've been married for almost twenty years. 657 00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 3: I wanted. 658 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,199 Speaker 2: One of the only Mormon things I ever did was 659 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,000 get married at a fairly young age, although I was 660 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,719 not Mormon at the time, just culturally, it wasn't out 661 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,320 of the way, uh, And I've always yeah, there's just 662 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,480 always been differences between where I was at my friends 663 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,480 and everything else. But it always felt like an important 664 00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,719 thing and like felt like, you know, like that project 665 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,440 do you like need to get to at some point, 666 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,320 and so like in a weird way, some of the other. 667 00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 3: Things and. 668 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 2: Some of the other things, including this, like has I 669 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,440 guess given me more license to be like there it's 670 00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:52,239 fine where there's people all along the spectrum and like 671 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,280 this is maybe in some ways like a very so anyways, 672 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,280 I try to I try to think of it now 673 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,320 is something that I can leverage in different environments or 674 00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:08,159 places that I'm in. It's not ever out front, right, 675 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,679 you're like now maybe one of like five people. It's 676 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,960 even because it's just not a topic that ever has 677 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,039 to be addressed, right, it doesn't affect my life partner 678 00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:22,519 choice or any of those things. But I think there 679 00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:27,480 probably was any any direct linkage to my developmental years. 680 00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:29,599 I would say there probably was like a level of 681 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,559 fear for me created around that from just the way 682 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,280 some of the stuff was talked about, and it just 683 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,800 seems so you know, I didn't like the way things 684 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,480 were talked about by the men, and that includes that, 685 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,800 you know, the adults, like maybe even Jeff and others, 686 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,920 and the treatment of you know or at least like 687 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:05,039 the separate class of citizen towards towards women, and certainly 688 00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:09,079 like the over white so like over white supremacy. A 689 00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:11,519 lot of that stuff was very difficult. I will say, 690 00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:14,599 to Israel's credit, I don't think that ever, like really 691 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,239 jazzed him up like I think it was there, It 692 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,159 was around him, and he didn't, you know, care to 693 00:40:23,559 --> 00:40:26,679 come up with a with a different game plan. But 694 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,239 so yeah, I did never I did never get him 695 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,920 from that. I would say I got much more of 696 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,559 a sense of that from you know, what little time 697 00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:38,679 we spent with Shane and Chevy and certainly through whatever 698 00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:43,119 quote unquote church activities that we were a part of. 699 00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:49,199 But yeah, so I think that's the best I can say, 700 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,159 is it probably contributed to a level of fear or 701 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,760 I'm this may not be for me kind of a feeling. 702 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,039 Speaker 1: That makes sense. Yeah, Is it just kind of like 703 00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:04,480 the standard toxic masculinity stuff or did it go deeper 704 00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:04,760 than that? 705 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's in a way it's 706 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:16,920 oxygen starved toxic masculinity. Right, So like there's the you know, 707 00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:19,199 kind of like what you'll see online. In some ways, 708 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,480 you get certain groups that are insulated enough that like 709 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:25,199 it's allowed to like go off the rails in a 710 00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:27,400 different kind of way, and like if you let any 711 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,719 sunlight in through, you're just gonna be like that, this 712 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,800 is this is strange, Like we're so many layers away 713 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,880 from these things you think you're upset about. Right, if 714 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,719 you take in cell culture, it's like, how are you 715 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,280 getting somewhere with this plan? 716 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,519 Speaker 3: Right? This this doesn't doesn't even add up? 717 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:46,159 Speaker 2: And so I think I think there was a version 718 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:51,079 of of that, which is only having so many you know, 719 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:54,840 sources of information and you know, I do get cognizant 720 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,719 enough eventually with these trips that it's just like like 721 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,239 is there almost like a mor big curiosity on their part? 722 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,800 About like you know, in the back of their head, 723 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,039 like they probably don't know what Seinfeld is, right, but 724 00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:08,559 like in the back of their heads are just like 725 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,079 I wonder if these people like watching Seinfeld or like 726 00:42:11,119 --> 00:42:13,639 doing some of these other like terrible Like I don't 727 00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:14,880 know what that would have been like to them, but 728 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,559 I'm sure that was like a you know, an interesting 729 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:20,599 dynamic for them because we would we would infiltrate their 730 00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:24,000 their lives in a way, right, And and I think 731 00:42:24,039 --> 00:42:25,960 it was what they wanted in a lot of ways, 732 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,920 but I'm sure it was also I would say I 733 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,559 think I observed some code switching on their part too, 734 00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:34,800 where like maybe even some of the girls in the 735 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,159 family were would maybe say things they may not have 736 00:42:38,199 --> 00:42:40,719 said if there weren't other people around. And I wish 737 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,159 I could think of an example or whatever, but I 738 00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:45,039 feel like you could almost see like some of that 739 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,880 like frustration or the like, you know, not quite so 740 00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:53,440 over as to be like you're lucky either here or 741 00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:55,280 like I would let you have it kind of thing, 742 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,840 but like kind of get that sense of it when 743 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,760 it Israel As talking through in the FBI interviews about 744 00:43:03,199 --> 00:43:07,960 Bill and Lorraine career, and he talks about a couple 745 00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:11,480 different things where it didn't quite go as planned. Like 746 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,400 that was one of the I would say the most 747 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:18,079 triggering things, even though some of the other descriptions are 748 00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:22,440 horrific and so dehumanizing and whatever else, like that for 749 00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:25,039 me was very difficult because, like I've I've watched that 750 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,679 from him, you know, in different ways, whether we're you know, 751 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,639 sometimes we go mind fences, we would try you know, 752 00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:34,800 we would go help milk the goats and some you know, 753 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,960 other care for animals or some of the farming stuff 754 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,920 that we would do while we were there, and you know, 755 00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:44,280 like again, he was never like lashing out on me 756 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,280 directly whatever else, but it was like a kind of 757 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,760 frustration and like kind of. 758 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 3: It. 759 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,079 Speaker 2: It was like you would be aware of it and 760 00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:56,320 like it was enough for gravity in the room and 761 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,480 so hearing him even telling that story, and maybe there 762 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,320 are other times where he got a little bit more 763 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,239 stern with the interviewers or something, those were always the 764 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,599 most arresting because it was just a little bit weird 765 00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:10,920 of like I know that voice. I've kind of watched 766 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,960 some of this dynamic happen, even though it was around 767 00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:18,400 you know, trying to put together, you know, a lamp 768 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,000 or something whatever, you you know, whatever the example would be. 769 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,559 But that was that was weird. That was the most tactile. 770 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,760 I was like, oh, I have direct experience with that. Again, 771 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,039 not in a way that was ever harmful to me, 772 00:44:29,159 --> 00:44:33,159 but it was just like, you know, it was like 773 00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:35,119 a there was all of a sudden, like a much 774 00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:37,519 shorter distance between the story I was listening to and 775 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:39,239 kind of my own life in a way. 776 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 3: That was a weird experience to have. 777 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,159 Speaker 1: That makes total sense. Not in the same way, but 778 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,760 I've had that same experience. You talked about your family 779 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,400 providing financial support to the Keys family. Can you elaborate 780 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,239 on that? I guess, like, in what ways what kind 781 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,920 of financial burdens were the Keys family under? How close 782 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:02,840 were like were they very close? Because it seems like 783 00:45:03,519 --> 00:45:07,400 and again I'm not fundamentalist Mormon or you know, yeah, 784 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,880 but I even my closest friends I would financially support. 785 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:18,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I had one hundred percent. So so here 786 00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:22,719 it's maybe not shocking. Later in life, I'm now a 787 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:28,599 CPA numbers I'm fine with I understand. I actually quized 788 00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,320 myself with my mom. We were talking about something else 789 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,239 and you know, she was bringing something up about the 790 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,000 house and I was like, I've heard a weird question 791 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:37,320 for you. 792 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,159 Speaker 3: I was like, I think I know what you paid 793 00:45:39,159 --> 00:45:41,880 for this house. And I was ten years old. 794 00:45:41,679 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 2: When we bought it, so nineteen ninety three, and I 795 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,360 told her and she's like, oh, I'm not sure. She's like, 796 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,119 but that seems like you know, basically the number. And 797 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,840 so having seven siblings younger than myself and you know, 798 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,840 I would want to do soccer or whatever else, and 799 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,599 like finances were always a concern. So I was I 800 00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:07,280 was overly attentive to this issue, right to the point 801 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,519 where I'm like thirteen, and I have this really deep seated, 802 00:46:11,159 --> 00:46:15,360 you know, sal sales pitcher rant about the fact of 803 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,280 like there's we can't afford it, and we're not prioritizing 804 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,320 that right and it's nobody's ever willing to say the 805 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,960 second one. It's just we can't afford that. And it's like, anyways, 806 00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:28,039 you can tell where someone that's going from. So I 807 00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:32,199 believe at different periods of time there was a cadence 808 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,360 where my parents and the keys would be on the 809 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,760 phone together. Now for Heidi and Jeff to use the phone, 810 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,360 they would basically traverse down the mountain to like a 811 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,719 small like four by four shed that was near like 812 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,639 you know, a telephone line or whatever else. They would 813 00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:53,679 have a car battery for to hook up whatever else 814 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,199 they had in that little shed, but that was there 815 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,880 was a phone there that could be used. So to 816 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,719 my knowledge, that that's where they would have gone to 817 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,800 to communicate with them, and so they would stay in touch, 818 00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:09,760 you know, some of these these ways. And so I'm 819 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,360 not sure what the hook was, but I believe what 820 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,760 I heard from my parents, probably because I was prying 821 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,239 or whatever else, because it's you know, I'm sitting there 822 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,960 looking at and be like, you know, shine, pads, aren't 823 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,039 that expensive? If we got money for Jeff and Hid 824 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,559 like what it sounds like soccer's happening this year, right, 825 00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:33,280 whatever it is. And but in my parents' minds, in 826 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,239 the audio's faith, you would tithe ten percent back to 827 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:36,639 the church. 828 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 3: Right. 829 00:47:37,599 --> 00:47:41,119 Speaker 2: So I literally think, if I'm if my memory is correct, 830 00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:44,480 and I'm not inventing this, that there was some amount 831 00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:47,039 that my parents were would send them in the form 832 00:47:47,079 --> 00:47:49,880 of check or you know, I would assume it's that way. 833 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,559 I don't think they're using money and then the other way, 834 00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:56,480 hopefully they weren't mailing cash, but and then my parents 835 00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:58,639 would just like kind of deduct from that what they 836 00:47:58,639 --> 00:48:00,760 would then pay into the church or so to speak. 837 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,679 So in a way, it's like we you know, we're 838 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:05,519 not out any money, we're just doing it differently. 839 00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:05,800 Speaker 3: Right. 840 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 2: It's like me paying five thousand dollars a year to 841 00:48:10,039 --> 00:48:13,400 Planned Parenthood and then underpaying my own federal taxes five 842 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,519 thousand dollars and being like, hey, like. 843 00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 3: Let's call it square. 844 00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally in a way. 845 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 2: And so like, I, yeah, I wish I could understand 846 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,599 that hook I mentioned earlier. I think there's like kind 847 00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:35,679 of this romanticized version of this, like kind of living 848 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,280 purely or like living off the land, like some of 849 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,360 that that my you know, my parents weren't willing to 850 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,280 go that far. My parents were still what I would call, 851 00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:48,119 you know, main street Mormon or whatever. 852 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 3: Like we were not. 853 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,280 Speaker 2: In any weird offshoots or whatever else that I'm that 854 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,559 I'm aware of other than you know, each community is 855 00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:58,719 going to have its own unique bent to a degree. 856 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,840 But so so there was you know, some some code 857 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,199 switching there, and I think by then, I don't think 858 00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:09,880 Heidi and Jeff were even really considering themselves to be 859 00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:13,719 Lds or anything else. So I don't I'm not sure 860 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,559 what that tether is other than like kind of yeah, 861 00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:20,480 kind of like this romantic version of like, we're trying 862 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,159 to do what you know, God has told us is 863 00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:25,639 important for our family, and here are the hurdles that 864 00:49:25,679 --> 00:49:27,760 are being thrown in our way, and you know, we 865 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,400 want to be able to show that we're stronger than that, right, 866 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,519 and can you assist and assist in that? That's my 867 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,079 that's my best best guess for some of that, And 868 00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:41,119 then the other the other ways were like I said, right, 869 00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:46,119 if we were coming up for the visit and they said, hey, whatever, 870 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,639 twenty two or nine mili need or whatever else, like 871 00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:50,679 you know, then we'll figure it out when you get 872 00:49:50,679 --> 00:49:55,760 here kind of thing. And one year I think we 873 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,519 even maybe we had already bought the trailer for something else, 874 00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:01,480 but my dad found an old, like nineteen seventies dirt bike, 875 00:50:02,199 --> 00:50:04,960 so we towed it all the way from Utah up 876 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,679 to Washington for their family. And again maybe they worked 877 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,559 out payment for that. I'm doubting that they did. I 878 00:50:12,559 --> 00:50:16,679 think that was more of a contribution. But then Israel 879 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,679 would have had a motorcycle. I think it was mainly 880 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,480 for Israel at that point. 881 00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:25,960 Speaker 1: For the rest of my conversation with Scott, listen to 882 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,079 My Friend Israel, Part two, available right now.