Speaker 1: Not any windows.
Speaker 2: Dot any windows anywhere. Marcason, Marcison, you are right.
Speaker 3: You were right.
Speaker 1: People are alike.
Speaker 2: People are alike everywhere. Consider a face that seems etched
Speaker 2: in a permanent state of youthful curiosity, yet carries the
Speaker 2: weight of a thousand lifetimes. You have seen this face before,
Speaker 2: perhaps on a man dead to escape the confines of
Speaker 2: a lunar zoo, or maybe hidden beneath the layers of
Speaker 2: a Simian mask. And you certainly heard him calling the
Speaker 2: name of his tortured butler, Porterfoy. The person I'm talking
Speaker 2: about is, of course, Roddy McDowell. And while his contribution
Speaker 2: to the Fifth Dimension was brief, a single haunting excursion
Speaker 2: into a cosmic cage, he holds the distinction of making
Speaker 2: an indelible mark on the Holy Trinity of rod sailing creations.
Speaker 2: His career was a map of the sailing landscape, a
Speaker 2: journey that led him not only into the Twilight Zone,
Speaker 2: but into the shadows of the Night Gallery and onto
Speaker 2: the shores of Planet of the Apes. But how much
Speaker 2: do we understand about the man behind the masks? I
Speaker 2: recently sat down with Samuel garzabairnsty, the author of an
Speaker 2: upcoming book, Roddy McDowell, An Actor's Life, which chronicles the
Speaker 2: life and legacy of a man whose life was lived
Speaker 2: on the screen. So submitted for your approval, my conversation
Speaker 2: with Samuel Garza Bernstein. Samuel, Welcome to the show. It's
Speaker 2: so good to talk to you. Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: Could you maybe introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us
Speaker 2: about some of the projects that you've worked on.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm living in Portugal now, so I can
Speaker 1: say a shamo, miss Samuel Garza Bernstein, saw escritor oor,
Speaker 1: slivos ouma, televisao, cinema etiatro. I don't know what possessed
Speaker 1: me to just say that. Anyway. I'm a writer for
Speaker 1: I write books. I write for television and film and theater.
Speaker 1: I have had a very long career. I have worked
Speaker 1: in television for twenty years. I'll be so. My book,
Speaker 1: Roddy Mcdollan Actor's Life, is coming out at the end
Speaker 1: of May, and I'm writing the fourth series of a
Speaker 1: show called After Forever that's on Amazon.
Speaker 2: Oh cool, okay, all right, So I mean I've been
Speaker 2: looking down some of your books Caesa Romero. That's definitely
Speaker 2: one that I'm going to get to big Batman fans.
Speaker 2: So I will go back and check that out. But
Speaker 2: what inspired you to choose Roddy as the next focus
Speaker 2: for a biography?
Speaker 1: You know, with with any job that you do, there's
Speaker 1: a certain amount of you know, this person suggested, this
Speaker 1: person said they might be interested in buying. You know,
Speaker 1: there's there's you know, there's a real world aspect to it.
Speaker 1: So I was talking with my agent, Lee Sober, and
Speaker 1: he mentioned to me that no one had ever done
Speaker 1: a bio of of Roddy McDowell and someone. You know,
Speaker 1: there's always been these things floating around that his archives
Speaker 1: were closed for one hundred years until after his death.
Speaker 1: And I had sort of vaguely heard that, and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: is that true? So I called up Boston University and
Speaker 1: I went, hey, can I see these archives? And they're
Speaker 1: like sure, come on, And so, knowing that I had
Speaker 1: access to that, pitched we pitched the idea to UH
Speaker 1: to Kensington and lo and behold they said yes and
Speaker 1: I started work.
Speaker 2: So maybe that room awaked in your favor because no
Speaker 2: one else did it.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Well, I think that did work in
Speaker 1: my favor. But I also think think, you know, everyone
Speaker 1: has always approached this idea of Roddy McDowell as the
Speaker 1: keeper of everyone's secrets, everyone's best friend and all of
Speaker 1: this stuff. I I mean, I fell in love with
Speaker 1: Roddy McDowell when I was like a little kid, and
Speaker 1: I mean I sort of wanted to grow up and
Speaker 1: be Roddy McDowell, like, you know, seeing him on television.
Speaker 1: And I'm never that interested in in the scandal quote
Speaker 1: unquote part of it because to me, it's sort of like, well,
Speaker 1: what are we going to reveal that Elizabeth Taylor liked sex? Oh, newsflash,
Speaker 1: you know that, you know, there's there's there's not a
Speaker 1: scandal kind of aspect to this that resonates with me.
Speaker 1: Whereas really giving the respect to uh, to somebody who
Speaker 1: who did nothing but worked hard his entire life and
Speaker 1: his deserving of our respect and our attention, that made
Speaker 1: me feel very, very satisfied to be able to do that.
Speaker 2: I think in a similar sense for me, Roddy McDowell
Speaker 2: was just one of those people who if you turned
Speaker 2: on the TV and he was on whatever it was,
Speaker 2: you would just immediately warn to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now I knew nothing about his private life or anything
Speaker 2: like that, because you know, firstly, I was just a kid,
Speaker 2: You're just watching TV. But I understand from you know,
Speaker 2: the notes that you've supplied that in his private life
Speaker 2: people did value his friendship a great deal. So what
Speaker 2: was it about him that made them such a presence
Speaker 2: in people's lives on and off screen? Do you think?
Speaker 1: I think that he was genuinely interested in other people,
Speaker 1: And especially for an actor, that's not always the case,
Speaker 1: you know, you know the old joke about but enough
Speaker 1: about me, what do you think of me? You know,
Speaker 1: it's he was not like that. He was very curious
Speaker 1: about the world. He was very curious about others, and
Speaker 1: he took his friendships and his relationships very very seriously.
Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't that he kept your secret because
Speaker 1: he knew it was scandalous and could get somebody in trouble.
Speaker 1: He kept your secret because he loved you, and you
Speaker 1: trusted him, and he trusted you. And I also think that,
Speaker 1: you know, he was a child star who had quite
Speaker 1: the weight of the world sort of on his shoulders
Speaker 1: from an early age. And I think in that sense
Speaker 1: of being very reactive to what's going on around him. Know,
Speaker 1: I think he really felt like he could see what
Speaker 1: was going on with people, and he could see what
Speaker 1: made what made things better and what made things worse.
Speaker 1: And he decided, I'm going to make things better. So
Speaker 1: he every situation he was in, whether it was meeting
Speaker 1: a new person and having lunch, whether it was starting
Speaker 1: a new job, whether it was whatever he looked for,
Speaker 1: how can I come in here and make this situation
Speaker 1: a little bit better?
Speaker 2: Right right?
Speaker 1: And that's just a really wonderful way I think to
Speaker 1: be in the world.
Speaker 2: So when you're getting to know Roddy, obviously you spoke
Speaker 2: about the archives. Now, I love stories about authors go
Speaker 2: into these archives because the paper trayal I'm not sure
Speaker 2: that it exists in the same way anymore, but it's
Speaker 2: all there. Could you tell us what's there? You know,
Speaker 2: what particular got you excited?
Speaker 1: Well, every piece of paper that Roddy McDowell ever touched
Speaker 1: in his entire life, I mean, his driver's licenses, his
Speaker 1: his acting you know, SAG cards, his I mean just
Speaker 1: everything's there, all the scripts, all the photographs, all the correspondents.
Speaker 1: And it's true, you know, before the advent of inexpensive
Speaker 1: long distance. Everything was on paper, so there are just
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of letters between him and people, you know,
Speaker 1: people like Noel Coward and just the person after person
Speaker 1: after person. You know, of course Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton,
Speaker 1: and but also friends that were not so well known,
Speaker 1: and you really get a sense of how how important
Speaker 1: he took those friendships, you know, really he asked questions
Speaker 1: that were that were that were real, that were meaningful.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 1: He never There's a wonderful correspondence that goes on between
Speaker 1: him and the English actor Dirk Boguard and a friend
Speaker 1: of theirs named body Boatwright. She was a film executive
Speaker 1: an agent, and it's wonderful to me that both Dirk
Speaker 1: Boguard and body Boatwright are constantly saying funny things about
Speaker 1: the other one and Roddy never you know, because there
Speaker 1: were copies of Roddy's letters to them. Also, he would
Speaker 1: make copies of his own letters before sending them, so
Speaker 1: and you could see he doesn't divulge to either one
Speaker 1: of them what the other one is saying about, you know,
Speaker 1: what they're saying about each other, and it's nothing, you know,
Speaker 1: it's nothing. Terrible, but it's it's it's just sort of
Speaker 1: the funny kind of catty things that you know, that
Speaker 1: we all would say to each other. And the other
Speaker 1: part about a lot of that correspondence is that it
Speaker 1: was really a lot of it was like being on Facebook.
Speaker 1: It was very much about well, I'm going to be here,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be at the Excelsior and if you're there,
Speaker 1: and then oh, I think that George is going to
Speaker 1: be there, but then Martha's coming and maybe we compare,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, and what they're eating, what
Speaker 1: they're like. I mean, really, if they he would have
Speaker 1: he would have loved.
Speaker 2: Facebook wild That's brilliant. So I'm going to test your
Speaker 2: memory a little here, Samuel. But I have to ask
Speaker 2: the question, because Roddy is in the Holy Trinity of
Speaker 2: Rod Saling projects, He's in the Twilight Zone, He's in
Speaker 2: the Night Gallery, He's in Planets of the Apes. Is
Speaker 2: there anything in the archives or elsewhere that you can
Speaker 2: specifically relate to rod Sailing or the Twilight Zone.
Speaker 1: Well, I you know, one of the first thing that
Speaker 1: comes to mind for for Planet of the Apes is,
Speaker 1: you know, the detail of Rowdy's script notes I could
Speaker 1: have twentieth century Fox, wouldn't wet me. I was going
Speaker 1: to print the in the biography, just a copy of
Speaker 1: his notes on one page, you know, I mean, it
Speaker 1: was not It wasn't like, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: print the whole script or anything. And they get very
Speaker 1: funny about that stuff. But he approached every moment of
Speaker 1: that performance. This is from the original script, the original movie.
Speaker 1: It's no different than doing Shakespeare for him, you know,
Speaker 1: he took it so so very seriously. And the you know,
Speaker 1: the the care with which he approached building a character
Speaker 1: that anybody else might have looked at is like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm playing an ape. I'm not even really an ape.
Speaker 1: I'm a chimpanzee. But you know, the ape sarmon ape,
Speaker 1: and you know, but he didn't look at it that way.
Speaker 1: One funny thing about about the Night Gallery episode is
Speaker 1: that the butler, Ossie Davis, plays the butler in the
Speaker 1: episode that he's in the cemetery, and I think the
Speaker 1: butler's name is Potiphoid. And so William Ragsdale, who did
Speaker 1: Fright Night with Roddy, I interviewed him and one of
Speaker 1: the things he talked about was that he was particularly
Speaker 1: that was maybe the first time he remembered as a
Speaker 1: kid seeing Roddy, and he was just the way that
Speaker 1: Roddy kept calling out to Usye Davis going but Aphar
Speaker 1: pophor so William Raxel would follow Roddy around the set
Speaker 1: calling out, and to Roddy's credit, and he always took
Speaker 1: it with a good deal of grace and laughed about
Speaker 1: it instead of, you know, swatting the kid away and
Speaker 1: saying stop that already, brilliant.
Speaker 2: I'm particularly fascinating then about what you just said about
Speaker 2: his notes about Planets of the Apes, and unfortunately you
Speaker 2: haven't been able to reprint them or have you been
Speaker 2: able to kind of give us a flavor of them
Speaker 2: in the book? You know what kind of things he's saying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he's really looking at well. The thing
Speaker 4: is with Planet of the Apes he kind of invented
Speaker 4: and was teaching other people how to act with all
Speaker 4: this stuff all over you like, you know, how to
Speaker 4: and so some of it is very technical about you know,
Speaker 4: you know, surprised look and how to like do that
Speaker 4: to you know, in response to this or into that,
Speaker 4: because it got very very technical because you couldn't just
Speaker 4: respond like a person because with all the prosthetics and stuff,
Speaker 4: it didn't it didn't necessarily register.
Speaker 1: So he actually on set was having these kind of
Speaker 1: like little informal acting classes, you know, going, well, you know,
Speaker 1: if you.
Speaker 5: Go like this, if you go like this, you know,
Speaker 5: and you're kind of like with your teeth like this,
Speaker 5: you know, it makes it look like you're, you know,
Speaker 5: doing fear or you're doing this or or It was
Speaker 5: almost kind of like a.
Speaker 1: Back in the silent movie days, they used to publish
Speaker 1: these these very funny instructions on how to act and
Speaker 1: how to make faces and they were like joy terror,
Speaker 1: you know, and and so it was a little like
Speaker 1: that because it was very rudimentary, but you know, kind
Speaker 1: of needs must and he was very very i think,
Speaker 1: very generous in terms of going, you know, this helps everyone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, this isn't about me protecting my performance. This
Speaker 1: is about making this a better experience for everyone. And
Speaker 1: and you know, people were a little wigged out in
Speaker 1: the well literally and figuratively and in in that shoot.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean Kim Hunter really struggled with
Speaker 1: with being in the thing. Salmonio in the later one
Speaker 1: in uh, what's that escape? Sal Minio was just like
Speaker 1: they had to cut his part short because he just
Speaker 1: he couldn't, like, he just freaked out. It was the
Speaker 1: makeup was so confining, and you know, he just it
Speaker 1: really he just couldn't do it for as long as as,
Speaker 1: you know, as he was supposed to.
Speaker 2: That's fascinating because you know, these days Andy Saykis gets
Speaker 2: quite rightly praised as a pioneer for his work in
Speaker 2: things like Plans of the Age Bought Roddy as this
Speaker 2: kind of figure helping everyone out saying Okay, this is
Speaker 2: what you do, this is how you look like this.
Speaker 2: That's such a lovely story. I'm glad to have heard
Speaker 2: that from you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: It's part of how I really grew to love this man,
Speaker 1: because there are just these instances over and over throughout
Speaker 1: his career where he showed how much he cared about
Speaker 1: the work as a whole. Yeah, he involved in the work.
Speaker 1: And if if I mean, the one thing that would
Speaker 1: make him, you know, really respond negatively to someone is
Speaker 1: if he felt they had been unkind or rude or
Speaker 1: obnoxious to someone, especially to somebody who couldn't fight back.
Speaker 1: You know, he I mean, he he was world famous
Speaker 1: at the age of twelve. Yeah. As much as his
Speaker 1: career took a lot of ups and down subsequently, he
Speaker 1: always knew that he was, you know, in our parlance,
Speaker 1: that he was privileged.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was especially concerned that those who are
Speaker 1: not privileged not be taken advantage of. And he he
Speaker 1: was really that way in really all aspects of his life.
Speaker 2: Again, with that level of preparation you talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: fright night, that six page like a biography of the
Speaker 2: character that he was prior to doing it. And I
Speaker 2: look down his resume and I do't didn't realize how
Speaker 2: prolific he actually was even in his later years. This
Speaker 2: just like bang bang bang, credit after credit. I mean,
Speaker 2: did he always give that level of preparation to things.
Speaker 1: I think he did. He Now, when he was a
Speaker 1: little kid, he was curious about everything, but he didn't
Speaker 1: really have technique. He was just a kid.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the way that I would describe it is to say,
Speaker 1: you know, generally speaking, this is a This is very
Speaker 1: much an overgeneralization, but generally speaking, a child is playing
Speaker 1: in the moment and playing the text. They're not playing
Speaker 1: a lot of subtext. Usually it's very much like Okay,
Speaker 1: we're doing this. We're doing this, and if you can
Speaker 1: keep them kind of mindful and in the moment, you
Speaker 1: can get that performance out of them. And he talks
Speaker 1: about the way that john Ford worked with him on
Speaker 1: How Green was My Valley, and it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: he referred to it as john Ford playing him like
Speaker 1: an instrument that he just I mean, he just it
Speaker 1: was all about sort of responding and reacting in the moment.
Speaker 1: And you know, when he had that those giant eyes.
Speaker 1: So you just go in for close up, you look
Speaker 1: at his eyes and you're like, boom, you know that's yours.
Speaker 1: It hits you between the eyes. Emotionally, you look at
Speaker 1: him and Lassie come home, You look at the dog,
Speaker 1: you look at him, you start crying, right So you know, like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's not a lot of there's not a
Speaker 1: lot of technique that's required in those kinds of jobs. Now,
Speaker 1: as he became an adult, he realized, Okay, now I
Speaker 1: have no idea what I'm doing. Like I have, I
Speaker 1: have a certain presence that I understand how to kind
Speaker 1: of you know, work and how to use on a set,
Speaker 1: but I don't really know what I'm doing. And he
Speaker 1: had to learn how to approach a character really from
Speaker 1: the bottom up. And he studied, you know, he studied
Speaker 1: with with Montgomery, Cliff's acting coach, and with some other
Speaker 1: acting coaches, and he built a process that made sense
Speaker 1: to him. And I mean it's a little bit methody
Speaker 1: in places, but not really. And it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of this, and it's a little bit of that. But
Speaker 1: what he would do is he would map out everything
Speaker 1: that he thought the character might be feeling and thinking
Speaker 1: in response to everyone else, and that would all be
Speaker 1: mapped out, and then he would forget it. Like it
Speaker 1: was like he would do that work and then be
Speaker 1: completely open to it being something completely different if that's
Speaker 1: what happens. But surrounding himself with all that work, then
Speaker 1: he felt I think free to you know, to kind
Speaker 1: of respond very in the moment, very organically. And so
Speaker 1: it was kind of a way of preparing it all
Speaker 1: very much outside in and then allowing the inside to,
Speaker 1: you know, to inhabit the way that it wanted to.
Speaker 2: Fascinating because he just makes it look so effortless, but
Speaker 2: there's all that work that's that's gone into it. Wonderful,
Speaker 2: isn't there?
Speaker 1: Usually for everybody. You know, the more effortless it is,
Speaker 1: you know, the more the more hard work went into it.
Speaker 1: I think for most things.
Speaker 2: You talk about, how Roddy found himself at the heart
Speaker 2: of some really big pivotal Hollywood events, you know, Cleopatra,
Speaker 2: the passing of Rockwoods, and Elizabeth Taylor's relationship with Sybil
Speaker 2: Bett and Christopher. So why what was it about Roddy
Speaker 2: that made him kind of be at the center of
Speaker 2: all this?
Speaker 1: Well, I think I never underestimate the power of curiosity.
Speaker 1: I think most of us and I don't, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm not putting the figure out other people. I'll
Speaker 1: put the favorite myself, you know. I think most of
Speaker 1: us we're like, we're curious about ourselves, you know, we
Speaker 1: want to talk about our own stuff. And it's rare.
Speaker 1: I think when somebody is smart and funny and curious about, well,
Speaker 1: what do you really think?
Speaker 3: Not?
Speaker 1: You know, not what do I think you think? So
Speaker 1: that I can then come up with my smart, funny response.
Speaker 1: I mean I think a lot of conversations, certainly. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been in the entertainment business my whole life, since
Speaker 1: i was a little kid, and you know, most conversations are.
Speaker 1: You know, one person is nodding their head, thinking up
Speaker 1: the next clever thing that they're going to say. When
Speaker 1: the other person takes a breath.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you know.
Speaker 1: It's he just didn't want to live that way. And
Speaker 1: he was a great storyteller, Like he remembered everything, and
Speaker 1: he remembered everything about about about Hollywood and about you know,
Speaker 1: the careers of people that he admired, and so you know,
Speaker 1: he could meet you and tell you things about your
Speaker 1: own work that you'd forgotten, you know, or or had
Speaker 1: been too drunk to remember. I mean, don't forget. He
Speaker 1: was hanging around with people like Richard Burton and Rex Harrison.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of drinking going up, so you know,
Speaker 1: he could remind Richard Burton how funny he had been
Speaker 1: that night when he said you know this or that
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I think he liked making people feel scene,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's that's how we that's how
Speaker 1: we put it now. I think, you know, in his day,
Speaker 1: you didn't talk about you know, I want to feel
Speaker 1: seen or I want to but I think those that
Speaker 1: was really one of his special gifts. You know, I
Speaker 1: talked to Eleana Douglas and she was very close with
Speaker 1: with Roddy and he gave her away at her wedding
Speaker 1: to Jonathan axel Rod in the nineties and she was like,
Speaker 1: he just got me, Like he we met and he
Speaker 1: looked at me, and I felt like he saw everything
Speaker 1: that I was and everything that I hoped to become.
Speaker 1: And you know, and he wasn't interested in, you know,
Speaker 1: telling you that you couldn't be what you wanted to be.
Speaker 1: He wanted to find a way to help you become
Speaker 1: what ever it is that you that you thought you
Speaker 1: could become. And uh, and it's really you know, I
Speaker 1: interviewed a lot of people because unlike some of the
Speaker 1: other people that I've written about, Roddy was sort of
Speaker 1: multi generational. So in his older years he was still
Speaker 1: making friends and putting you know, bridges out to younger generations,
Speaker 1: where like you know, Caesar wasn't doing that. I've written
Speaker 1: about John Crawford, she really wasn't doing that, you know,
Speaker 1: like they were not interested in doing that. So when
Speaker 1: it came down to to write those books, there weren't
Speaker 1: a lot of people left, you know, that really remembered them. Roddy.
Speaker 1: Tons of people are around and I mean, I spoke
Speaker 1: with Chris Sarandon and William Ragsdale and Joanna Gleason and
Speaker 1: you know, all of these people and everyone. I think,
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's everyone everyone, but I think
Speaker 1: I but in my mind, I think it's actually everyone
Speaker 1: that I spoke with started crying when they talked about Roddy,
Speaker 1: but tears of joy. Not like they weren't like, they
Speaker 1: weren't like sad, they were just like it made them
Speaker 1: feel so much to remember how special they felt in
Speaker 1: his presence. And I think that is an enormous gift
Speaker 1: of you know, right now, a number of people that
Speaker 1: were not necessarily willing to talk to me when I
Speaker 1: was writing are now coming forward because they can read
Speaker 1: the book and see that it's not you know, it's
Speaker 1: not doing anything. You know, I'm not you know, trying
Speaker 1: to make a big scandal out of something. And you know,
Speaker 1: people like Carol Burnett and Julie Andrews and they're really
Speaker 1: you know, I am told so I don't know this
Speaker 1: for fact yet, but I am told that, you know
Speaker 1: that they're sort of loving the book and ready to
Speaker 1: talk about it themselves because he was so special to them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and it really is like that human. Sure
Speaker 1: they respect his achievements and they want to see him
Speaker 1: known for those achievements, but they just they loved him.
Speaker 1: I mean Melissa Rivers, she Joan Rivers and Roddy were close,
Speaker 1: and Melissa read the book and she was just like,
Speaker 1: you know, I loved him and he was my godfather,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know half this stuff, and it just
Speaker 1: makes me love him even more to be able to
Speaker 1: know these because he was somebody who lived very much
Speaker 1: in the present, So he wasn't going on about you know,
Speaker 1: this thing happened to me in nineteen forty six, you know,
Speaker 1: with little Melissa Rivers when she's ten, you know. And
Speaker 1: so so it's kind of a way that they're discovering
Speaker 1: bits about his past that that that brings them close
Speaker 1: to him as well.
Speaker 2: So I wasn't aware until I actually read the material
Speaker 2: about your book that Roddy was actually a gay man.
Speaker 2: You know, for some people, especially during his you know,
Speaker 2: most famous years. I suppose I could be you know,
Speaker 2: career ending thing. People navigated that in various ways. How
Speaker 2: did Roddy navigate it?
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was lucky for him to a
Speaker 1: degree that that he wasn't a leading man as an adult.
Speaker 1: I mean he had some leading man characters.
Speaker 3: I don't mean he wasn't the lead in anything, but
Speaker 3: he wasn't you know, he wasn't in that in the sixties,
Speaker 3: Like he wasn't George Papard or or you know, Robert
Speaker 3: Redford or somebody.
Speaker 1: He wasn't primarily a romantic lead. So I don't think
Speaker 1: people were as interested in his personal life, so he
Speaker 1: didn't really have to manufacture one. He Uh. One of
Speaker 1: the one of the happiest discoveries that I that I
Speaker 1: made in the archives was that throughout all of the
Speaker 1: correspondence with his with his friends, with his family, uh,
Speaker 1: not with his mother, but with everybody else in his
Speaker 1: family and with agents and studio execs and directors and
Speaker 1: other actors, his relationships were completely normalized. So you know,
Speaker 1: when he was he had a long term relationship with
Speaker 1: a man named John Varva Valvi. I'm sorry, in the sixties,
Speaker 1: and you know, every letter from the agent or from
Speaker 1: twenty century Fox, every letter was like, give my love
Speaker 1: to John. John sent me the funniest card the other day.
Speaker 1: Tell him it made me laugh. You know, just all
Speaker 1: the regular day to day normal things that I think
Speaker 1: I think those are among the most important things in
Speaker 1: terms of normalizing one's relationships. That, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's so important that everyone can talk about their
Speaker 1: sex life, but I think it's very important that they
Speaker 1: can talk about their you know, their home life, their
Speaker 1: partnerships there, you know, those kinds of things. And so
Speaker 1: of the three relationships that I was able to you know,
Speaker 1: kind of piece together through correspondence and stuff, all three
Speaker 1: of those relationships were long term, were accepted by everyone
Speaker 1: in his life. And uh, there was no you know,
Speaker 1: there was no scandal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 1: No, And uh and I actually i'm very I'm there,
Speaker 1: very adamant that I don't feel that, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't feel like i'm outing Roddy McDowell, you know, like
Speaker 1: I'm I'm First of all, he left his archives knowing
Speaker 1: someone would read them. Sure, So if he didn't want
Speaker 1: any of that information out there at any moment, he
Speaker 1: could have destroyed any of it. So I feel like
Speaker 1: there's a tacit approval of anything that is written about
Speaker 1: from his own archives because he saved them, and he
Speaker 1: saved them so that someone could research them. You know,
Speaker 1: they're not they're not in an archive just you know,
Speaker 1: to look pretty and be there. But it it, it
Speaker 1: just made me very happy because it I you know,
Speaker 1: you hate the idea of imagining that someone was sort
Speaker 1: of tormented or felt badly about things or something, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem that he did. And there's an there's
Speaker 1: a very weird, uh sort of subplot that goes out
Speaker 1: in the fifties though he his therapist at one point
Speaker 1: was the same therapist who ended up writing about Sybil,
Speaker 1: you know, the the most the slip personality, Sally Field.
Speaker 1: All of that well, Doctor Wilbur wrote a not very
Speaker 1: particularly disguised version of Roddy's case file that was printed
Speaker 1: in a national magazine, and at the time it was
Speaker 1: not necessarily I haven't been able to discover any anybody
Speaker 1: putting those pieces together at the time, like publicly at
Speaker 1: any rate. Now Roddy knew about it, and he did
Speaker 1: not write about it in his archives, but I can
Speaker 1: only imagine that he would have felt completely betrayed.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And doctor Wilber was kind of part of a
Speaker 1: kind of conversion therapy kind of idea that that in
Speaker 1: the fifties to be fair to her would not have
Speaker 1: seemed a bad idea to most people, Like most people
Speaker 1: would have thought, well, that's yeah, you want to make
Speaker 1: you know, make people, you know normal. So I don't
Speaker 1: want to vilify her for that being something that was
Speaker 1: that was on her sort of agenda, but I will
Speaker 1: vilify her for for betraying is his trust that way,
Speaker 1: and it left him I think maybe in some ways
Speaker 1: feeling very vulnerable, and he certainly couldn't sewer, because to
Speaker 1: sewer would be to drag out in public that yes,
Speaker 1: this is me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But maybe once that moment had passed, and that would
Speaker 1: have been I think around fifty eight, maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe with that, with that moment past, I think maybe
Speaker 1: it gave him a little bit even more sense of
Speaker 1: like fearlessness. You know, well, you know, if you can
Speaker 1: get through that, then I guess nothing terrible is going
Speaker 1: to happen. I mean, he's in a truly terrible movie
Speaker 1: called Angel Angel Down we go in the late sixties
Speaker 1: with Jordan Christopher Sybil Burton, Christopher's husband who was kind
Speaker 1: of a nominal rock star and actor of the era.
Speaker 1: So he's playing this this sort of rock star and
Speaker 1: Robbie's playing this pan sexual kind of a hanger on
Speaker 1: who has a whole monologue about how he doesn't care
Speaker 1: and he's half naked most of the time, and he
Speaker 1: does this whole monologue about how he'll sleep with anybody
Speaker 1: that appeals to him and he doesn't care what their
Speaker 1: gender is. And I'm like this, Wow. I mean, I
Speaker 1: wish it were a better movie, because it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 1: It's a crazily bad movie. It's Jennifer Jones. I think
Speaker 1: it was the last movie, and that the lesbian focusing
Speaker 1: are holly near is in it. It's just it's one
Speaker 1: of those weird show business mashups where you just got
Speaker 1: to go. I don't know what anyone was thinking. This
Speaker 1: was a good idea, but it certainly didn't work.
Speaker 2: So Roddy died in nineteen ninety eight, I believe, and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to tell you about my interaction
Speaker 2: with him. You can use this in your next book
Speaker 2: if you want. No such as it is. I don't
Speaker 2: think anyone's going to write about this one. But in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, I was working in New York, and
Speaker 2: I believe that Roddy was living in Sagharbor at that
Speaker 2: time on Long Island, and I was working in a
Speaker 2: restaurant in Sag Harbor, and I'm not sure what it was,
Speaker 2: but for some reason I ran out of that restaurant.
Speaker 2: I was the reason why I ran out, I cannot remember.
Speaker 2: But when I came back, one of the chefs said
Speaker 2: to me, do you realize who you just nearly knocked
Speaker 2: over and then out of this place? And I'm like no,
Speaker 2: And it's like you nearly just knocked over Roddy McDowell.
Speaker 2: And first of all, I was devastated that I nearly
Speaker 2: knocked him over. You know, I we never collided or
Speaker 2: anything like that. I must have just ran past them
Speaker 2: really fast. And secondly, I was devastated that I missed
Speaker 2: my chance to meet Roddy McDowell, or you know, at
Speaker 2: least I was within a couple of feet of them.
Speaker 2: That's my Roddy mcdell's story.
Speaker 1: Well, he was there actually the I can't remember the
Speaker 1: name of the theater. I think it's the Bay Street Theater.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was very involved with that theater. So he
Speaker 1: didn't live there, but he sometimes spent quite a lot
Speaker 1: of time there and he did do things at the
Speaker 1: theater and so you could find him there in the summers.
Speaker 2: Obviously very sadly, you know, we passed away from cancer.
Speaker 2: And I understand this is something that he kept to himself.
Speaker 2: I mean, what's the story there.
Speaker 1: It really it was fast. I mean, even though I
Speaker 1: mean it's not he did keep it to himself, but
Speaker 1: it was a fast thing. He was doing six shows
Speaker 1: a week, seven shows a week at Madison Square Garden
Speaker 1: in front of six thousand people, you know, doing a
Speaker 1: Christmas Carol and he was alternating with Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it slipped my mind. Oh how hal London they were.
Speaker 1: They were alternating the role of Scrooge, and he he
Speaker 1: struggled lifting tiny tim okay, and he like he he
Speaker 1: wrenched something in back and he thought, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm going to have to get that looked at.
Speaker 1: And so that was you know, they closed the run,
Speaker 1: I guess January first, and he went back to California,
Speaker 1: went to his chiropractor, didn't help. He went to you know,
Speaker 1: his massage therapist really didn't help. And he had late
Speaker 1: stage lung cancer and you know, he it was diagnosed
Speaker 1: I think in February, and he kept it to himself
Speaker 1: until about I think it started getting out in about September,
Speaker 1: and so he did keep it to himself for about
Speaker 1: six months. And you know, it was appro He worked constantly,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean constantly, he was traveling. There was
Speaker 1: a I don't remember which anniversary edition, I guess it
Speaker 1: would have been the thirtieth anniversary of Planet of the
Speaker 1: Apes coming around. He was doing events in different cities
Speaker 1: for that, and he was recording all of the animated
Speaker 1: shows that he did voices for. You know, he just
Speaker 1: and he did, you know, like seven hundred interviews for
Speaker 1: A and E's biography. You know, he shows up for
Speaker 1: every single you know, Shirley Temple, It's like he knew
Speaker 1: them all. And so he was doing a lot of
Speaker 1: those and it became clear relatively early on that it
Speaker 1: was not, you know, that it was not going to
Speaker 1: get better.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And one of the only people that he let in
Speaker 1: on it was actually the actress Doris Roberts. They were close,
Speaker 1: and he knew that Doris could keep it to herself
Speaker 1: and not turn it into him taking care of her.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: I think what he knew would happen, and I think
Speaker 1: he was right is that because of the relationship that
Speaker 1: he had with so many people, and because he was
Speaker 1: such a person that people looked to for advice, for love,
Speaker 1: for kindness, he was I think he understood that he
Speaker 1: would not be able to do all the things that
Speaker 1: he wanted to do before he died, getting ready, getting
Speaker 1: all of his estate stuff ready, if he had to
Speaker 1: take care of all of his friends and loved ones
Speaker 1: who were going to be in you know, a very
Speaker 1: difficult place emotionally. And it tortured Doris Roberts that because
Speaker 1: she was just like, well, what about Elizabeth, what about Sybil?
Speaker 1: You have to tell these people, I mean, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of extraordinary that that really his two best friends
Speaker 1: were these two women who were I mean, they weren't
Speaker 1: mortal enemies or anything, but they were certainly not friends.
Speaker 1: You know, Sybil had been married to Richard Burton when
Speaker 1: when he started his affair with Elizabeth Taylor during Cleopatra,
Speaker 1: they were all, I mean, these villas, this was a
Speaker 1: hot bed of activity, and reportedly so Roddy and John
Speaker 1: Valva were staying in the same villa with Richard and
Speaker 1: Sybil Burton and their kids, and then Elizabeth Taylor was
Speaker 1: with Eddie Fisher, like right next door in their villa,
Speaker 1: and everyone was sleeping with everybody, And apparently John Valves
Speaker 1: started an affair with Sybil Burton Well during that time,
Speaker 1: so you know, so he was cheating on Roddy with Sybil.
Speaker 1: This did not affect Roddy's love for Sybil in any way,
Speaker 1: I guess. And all those years later, at his deathbed,
Speaker 1: one of the last two people at his side were
Speaker 1: Sybil and Elizabeth Taylor together and he told them that
Speaker 1: he wanted them to do this thing for him. He
Speaker 1: was a longtime supporter of the Motion Picture Television and
Speaker 1: Film Film and Television Fund, you know where the country
Speaker 1: homes in Woodland Hills where retired actors lived, and he
Speaker 1: wanted them to create a rose garden in his memory.
Speaker 1: And it's got the statue of him as Caesar from
Speaker 1: the last two found of the Apes movies. And an
Speaker 1: artist who was a friend of theirs named Adam Kurtzman
Speaker 1: did a sculpture of Roddy that's at this pond where
Speaker 1: you know, with this whole rose garden. And he told
Speaker 1: Sybil and Elizabeth Taylor that they were going to raise
Speaker 1: this money, We're gonna have this built together and if
Speaker 1: they didn't do it together, and if they didn't get along,
Speaker 1: he would haunt them, and he meant it. And I
Speaker 1: have that from a man who was in the room
Speaker 1: and heard him say it, So it's it's it's still
Speaker 1: secondhand to me. I wasn't there, but it's but it's
Speaker 1: from first hand somebody that was in that room and
Speaker 1: heard him say, I will haunt you if you don't
Speaker 1: do this.
Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful.
Speaker 1: And a couple of years later, when they when they
Speaker 1: you know, when they opened the Rose Garden at the
Speaker 1: induction of the ceremony and everything unscripted, total surprise to everyone,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Taylor publicly apologized to Sybil Burton for stealing her
Speaker 1: husband forty five years before, which is its kind of
Speaker 1: you know, mental when you think about it, like, oh
Speaker 1: it was Does anyone even remember any of this? But
Speaker 1: but I guess you know, people did, and it made
Speaker 1: they made headlines all over again. Now.
Speaker 2: I think when anyone writes a biography about someone, especially
Speaker 2: if the person is no longer with us, there's a
Speaker 2: huge responsibility to that person to do it well, to
Speaker 2: do it right. And I think maybe a bit of
Speaker 2: an extra responsibility for you in that Roddy quite famously,
Speaker 2: I think, said that it was something that he never
Speaker 2: wanted to happen because he was scared it would just
Speaker 2: focus on the salacious nature of things. And so how
Speaker 2: have you navigated this project?
Speaker 1: Nobody who really doesn't want someone to write about them
Speaker 1: has archive, like let's you know, like if you really
Speaker 1: don't want a book about you, and maybe don't save
Speaker 1: all your stuff, and so there's that. I hope that
Speaker 1: that he would like the book. It is really a
Speaker 1: celebration of his life and his achievements, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly love him more than I do. So
Speaker 1: it's you know it. I mean, I'm not unreservedly sort
Speaker 1: of positive or you know, a cheerleader about each and
Speaker 1: every project he ever did or anything like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I certainly look at his work with a critical eye,
Speaker 1: But I think there's a real difference between people who
Speaker 1: want to write about others in order to explore them
Speaker 1: and to celebrate their achievements and people who want to
Speaker 1: sort of dissect them and tear them apart. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: not a fan of that approach to sort of life.
Speaker 1: I think I'm sort of like Roddy in that way.
Speaker 1: I want to feel like wherever I've been that that
Speaker 1: I'm leaving whatever it is, I'm leaving it a little
Speaker 1: bit better than I found it. Like I'm I'm you know, I'm,
Speaker 1: I'm you know, first, do no harm, you know. And
Speaker 1: and so I think he would like it. I have.
Speaker 1: So I have a very bizarre I write about it
Speaker 1: in the introduction, and I write about it with a
Speaker 1: little bit of trepidation because it is so bizarre. But
Speaker 1: so I have a friend here in Portugal who is
Speaker 1: by trade. He works with yoga and tantra and all these,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of spiritual things. But he also we
Speaker 1: were having dinner one night and he looked over at
Speaker 1: me and he goes, you know, he knew I was
Speaker 1: writing about Rodney McDowell and he didn't know much about him.
Speaker 1: And he said, did Rodney Mottewell smoke? And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like a chimney. He died of lung cancer. Yes, he
Speaker 1: smoked all the time. And he's like, and did he
Speaker 1: wear scarves? And I go, well, yeah, he famously had
Speaker 1: this collection of air mess scarves and why And so
Speaker 1: my friend Jose he goes, oh, well, I think he
Speaker 1: was in my bedroom last night and then he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, past assault. It was like, oh no, no,
Speaker 1: hold on, wait wait wait wait he what and so
Speaker 1: so we had a seance and it was so not
Speaker 1: like a seance, it was like just conversation. But but
Speaker 1: he he said that apparently because I had been I
Speaker 1: had gotten the galley's back on the Caesar Romero book
Speaker 1: and was busy on that and had stopped working on
Speaker 1: on the Roddy book. And he said that Roddy just
Speaker 1: wanted to nudge me and that, you know, the esteemed
Speaker 1: mister Romero. Notwithstanding this is you're on my time now.
Speaker 2: And I thought it sounds legit.
Speaker 1: You know. If he told me some other things and
Speaker 1: some other you know, if I relied on any of
Speaker 1: that as actual research for the book, I think I would,
Speaker 1: you know, lose my writer's license or whatever. I do not,
Speaker 1: and I certainly do not put that out there as
Speaker 1: some kind of de facto saying that, oh, of course
Speaker 1: Roddy approves. I don't know. I don't know if there's
Speaker 1: life after death, you know, But I'm just a writer.
Speaker 1: What do I know? But but I will confess that
Speaker 1: I found it in normal Lee kind of you know,
Speaker 1: happy to me that he told me that Roddy said
Speaker 1: that he chose me. That he was like, I've been
Speaker 1: waiting and I chose you. And like the thing about
Speaker 1: that that I find so sweet is that, even if
Speaker 1: it's a loadable and it's not real at all, it's
Speaker 1: kind of the kind of affectionate sort of shot in
Speaker 1: the arm that Roddy McDowell would give people like, you know,
Speaker 1: like I chose you, like you're you know, you matter,
Speaker 1: you're special and you know, so in that respect, it
Speaker 1: feels to me a little bit like, uh, like something
Speaker 1: that that is of him, even if I have no
Speaker 1: earthly idea if it was you know, if it was true,
Speaker 1: but it's but it certainly it certainly adds to the
Speaker 1: Hollywood circus atmosphere, you know, of his life, of my life,
Speaker 1: of all of our lives.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a beautiful note to finish this
Speaker 2: on Samuel. Where can people get the book anywhere?
Speaker 1: Well, it's not actually out until May twenty sixth, but
Speaker 1: you can pre order it now anywhere where you know.
Speaker 1: Online books are available and it'll be in bookstores I
Speaker 1: believe in the UK as well as the United states
Speaker 1: at the end of May.
Speaker 2: Wonderful. Well, Samuel. You know you talk about leaving things
Speaker 2: a little better than you find and when I think
Speaker 2: through my conversation with you today, that's certainly how I feel.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much. It's been an absolute delight
Speaker 2: to talk to you, and I can't wait to read
Speaker 2: the book.
Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: You know, I count myself very privileged to have the
Speaker 2: conversations that I have with people, and that conversation was
Speaker 2: no exception. What a delightful man, and I really enjoyed
Speaker 2: talking to him, and I have pre ordered a copy
Speaker 2: of the book, and I think it's a book that
Speaker 2: I may have picked up anyway because I've always enjoyed
Speaker 2: Roddy McDowell, but I'm definitely going to do that now
Speaker 2: after that conversation with Samuel. So I'll put links in
Speaker 2: the show notes about how you can get to Samuel's website,
Speaker 2: and of course some links to buy the book. So
Speaker 2: before we go, I just want to make a quick
Speaker 2: mention that I recently announced that I'm going to be
Speaker 2: at Sailing Fest in August twenty twenty six. Quite what
Speaker 2: I'll be doing there yet, I don't know, but one
Speaker 2: thing that I certainly will be doing is hanging out
Speaker 2: speaking to people. And if you're going to Sailing Fest,
Speaker 2: then I want to meet you there. And I'd like
Speaker 2: to thank the following people whose kindness generosity means that
Speaker 2: I will definitely be there, because now I've been able
Speaker 2: to book my ticket and I'll be on that plane
Speaker 2: to New York. So, first of all, Cassie, my good friend,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your contribution and I look
Speaker 2: forward to seeing you at Sailing Fest again. My friend
Speaker 2: Joe Mayer, who is the host of the Key of
Speaker 2: Imagination YouTube show, a great show about the Twilight Zone.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Joe, I really appreciate it. Jason Schwartz,
Speaker 2: the host of The Twilight Zone Sandbox podcast. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much, Jason. Again, I can't wait to see you there.
Speaker 2: My friend Mark Ramsey, who is one of the best
Speaker 2: in the business when it comes to podcasting and he's
Speaker 2: always been a great supporter of this show. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much, Mark, I really appreciate it. Maxwell Gabbis, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for your contribution. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: A longtime friends of the show, David Trimboli, Thank you
Speaker 2: so much. I I really appreciate your contribution to my
Speaker 2: old friend Harold Clark. Thank you for chipping in, Harold.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it and I cannot wait to see
Speaker 2: you at sailing Fest again. Michael fairnback, Michael, thank you
Speaker 2: so much. I really appreciate your contribution. Longtime friends of
Speaker 2: the show, Drooman always popping up here and there. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much. Drouman, and I understand you're going to
Speaker 2: Sailing Fest too, so I can't wait to see you
Speaker 2: there now. Josh and Rhode Island has been an amazing
Speaker 2: generous supporter of the Twilight Zone podcast for a while now,
Speaker 2: so Josh, thank you so much. Your generosity really kind
Speaker 2: of s sent this fundraising over the edge and allowed
Speaker 2: me to get to where I need to be. So
Speaker 2: thank you, Josh. I understand you're going to Sailing Fest
Speaker 2: two and I can't wait to break bread with you there.
Speaker 2: Emma from London, Emma, thank you so much. It was
Speaker 2: really generous of you and I appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2: So thank you. Chris Jasinski. Chris, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for your contribution and I appreciate your part in sending
Speaker 2: me to Sailing Fest this year. My old friend benk
Speaker 2: Cake and Ben, thank you so much for your contribution.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that too. I want to thank Andrew Neff,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your contribution. Andrew really generous
Speaker 2: of you, and I appreciate you helping me make the journey.
Speaker 2: My old friend Mark Barnhill. Mark another great supporter of
Speaker 2: the show and of me over the years and one
Speaker 2: of the funnest guys you're ever going to meet. I
Speaker 2: look forward to getting back together with you at sailing
Speaker 2: Fest this year. Mark. And Dane Bauman another one of
Speaker 2: those people who has really delighted me with his generosity
Speaker 2: over the years, and once again one of the major
Speaker 2: contributors to my being able to go to Sailing Fest
Speaker 2: this year. So thank you, Dane. I also want to
Speaker 2: thank the men members over at the After Hours Club
Speaker 2: who not only keep the lights on at the Twilight
Speaker 2: Zone podcast, but also give me the ability to do
Speaker 2: things like Sailing Fest. Now, I might have fallen behind
Speaker 2: a bit with these, so I'm going to go back
Speaker 2: and make sure that I've picked everyone up who's joined
Speaker 2: in recent memory. So I want to thank Lisa, Thank you, Lisa,
Speaker 2: Peter Gamble, Peter, thank you so much. Marvin Ducklow Marvin,
Speaker 2: thank you for being there, Taylor Taylor, thank you so much,
Speaker 2: and Robin Moore, Thank you, Robin. Also Josh, thank you, Josh, Emma,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining, Emma, and Audrey Escalante. Audrey,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining. Hack Torrance, thank you, Hack.
Speaker 2: And Bucia seventy eight, thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 2: Josh Anderson, Thank you, Josh. I appreciate it and ours
Speaker 2: had a great conversation with ours over on Patreon. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much. And then we have Dale Wagner, Thank you,
Speaker 2: and also Clifford, thank you so much for joining at
Speaker 2: the After Hours Club. Okay, so if you too want
Speaker 2: to support the twilight Zone podcast or my trip to
Speaker 2: Sailing Fest, then head over to the twilight Zone podcast
Speaker 2: dot com slash donate. So the big question is when
Speaker 2: are the episode reviews coming back the usual format of
Speaker 2: the Twilight Zone podcast. Well, honestly, now that have cleared
Speaker 2: the decks of a few things, it is my priority,
Speaker 2: so hopefully it'll be in the not too distant future.
Speaker 2: So watch this space and I will speak to you soon.
Speaker 2: Bye for now, No