WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.080 in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcasts. 3 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:06.519 Do you like movies? 4 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:07.599 Do you like sports? 5 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:09.960 And we never thought I never played that sport on 6 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:12.400 the screen, but I really enjoyed how the movie made 7 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:15.080 me feel. Well, then have we got a show for you. 8 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:16.879 The Adrian Moment is where. 9 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:20.039 My friend Ocean and I discussed the triangulation of sports, 10 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:21.239 movies and life. 11 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.239 We dive deep into the movies, discussing how they relate 12 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:26.079 to and have affected our lives. 13 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.079 We will talk about why the sport matters to the movie, 14 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:31.920 why you don't have to love the sport to enjoy 15 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:36.119 the movie, and mine a few nuggets of meaning inside. 16 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.359 The story you may not have realized was really there. 17 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:40.719 After listening to our show, come join us for more 18 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:43.320 conversations about the movie that portray the thrill. 19 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:45.759 Of victory and the agony of defeat. 20 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:48.840 Find The Adrian Moment podcast on your Favorit podcast hat 21 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.439 and join us while we cover the sports you love 22 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:53.280 and the ones you never think about. 23 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:58.200 You will never see sports or sport movies the same again. 24 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.320 Hey, hey, Apes, Hey, you see that snickers over there? 25 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:07.200 No one's looking you should just take it. 26 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:12.480 No, don't listen to him, my son, that would be stealing, 27 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:13.959 and stealing is. 28 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:18.079 A sin, sinschman, it's a faking snick, as may you 29 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:19.239 deserve to have it. 30 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.519 Sinning really satisfies. 31 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.560 You to repent, my child. Virtue is the only real 32 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:28.480 snack with saving for that candy body is merely a 33 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:36.680 gateway to nuked dumbition. Has this ever happened to you? 34 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:39.000 Listening to the devil on one shoulder and an angel 35 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:40.840 on the other, and you're not sure what to think? 36 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:42.359 Then we're here to help. 37 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:43.599 I'm Pete Wright. 38 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:45.640 And I'm Tommy mess the third and this season on 39 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.319 All the Feelings, we're examining the seven deadly sins. 40 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:51.239 You note, the fun ones. 41 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.359 And the seven heavenly virtues. 42 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.040 Which are also a thing. Through personal stories, historical oddities, 43 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.319 and way too much embarrassment, we take you on a 44 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:01.959 thrilling journey through all the goods and the bads you 45 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:03.760 hear about in church, but. 46 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:06.799 Without all that pesky church stuff. So come join us 47 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.599 for All the Feelings Season nine, a sometimes funny podcast 48 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:10.439 about being human. 49 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.199 All the sins, all the virtues. 50 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.319 All in one place. Go to all the Feelings Dot 51 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:18.000 Fun to learn more or subscribe to All the Feelings 52 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:19.840 wherever you get your podcasts. 53 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:30.120 Game over, Hello. 54 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:33.400 And welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics, my friends. 55 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.159 Some of the first episodes we did on this podcast 56 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.039 were on the TV show Daredevil and then the rest 57 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:41.719 of the Netflix MCU shows. So many of those shows 58 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:45.319 brought up interesting questions and led to great discussions, and 59 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:50.159 so we have been fairly excited and anticipatory. We've been 60 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:54.080 fairly excited as we anticipated the release of Daredevil Born Again. 61 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.039 We've gone through various ups and downs in terms of 62 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.520 how excited or not excited, or how much we trust 63 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:00.719 or don't trust what was happening. 64 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:01.840 But here we are. 65 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.840 Daredevil Born Again is out and Colic Book expert extraordinaire, 66 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:09.560 along with good friend of the podcast and pretty strong 67 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:14.560 Daredevil fan Jessica Plumber is here to talk about it. So, Jessica, 68 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:17.800 as someone who has loved Daredevil on the page, love 69 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.280 Charlie Cox and Netflix Daredevil, was this everything you were 70 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:27.680 hoping for from a Daredevil returning to empty you? 71 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:34.479 No? No, it was not. Yeah, this was about as 72 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:37.479 bad as it could be for me personally. I don't 73 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:42.360 think it was an unwatchable TV show, but for for. 74 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.479 Me it was Yeah. 75 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.400 I will say, fans of this podcast, there's a lot 76 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:50.080 of times where I'm like, look, I want to watch 77 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:51.879 this thing. I want to talk about this thing. So 78 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:53.680 I'm going to find a way to like make it 79 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:56.759 ethical so we can discuss it. You know, chess playing 80 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:00.599 is normally not the most superhero thing, but Ueen's gambit 81 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:00.960 was great. 82 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:02.520 We wanted to talk about it. We made it't happen. 83 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:04.639 But every now and then we have something on the 84 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.840 opposite side where it is not something I'm personally enjoying watching, 85 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:10.520 but I'm willing to suffer through it for you the listener. 86 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:13.000 And so we're going to start with actually this question 87 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:13.479 of Jessica. 88 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:16.079 When was the first moment when party you wanted to 89 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:18.680 reach for the remote control and hit stop and you 90 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:21.360 remembered that, No, you write about these things, you podcast 91 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:21.879 about these things. 92 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:22.680 You had to finish it. 93 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.759 I I feel like maybe you know, in your heart 94 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.600 of hearts, yeah, it was when Foggy died. I mean 95 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:34.480 it was when they shot it up. I strongly suspected 96 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:38.199 they were going to kill him based on bad vibes 97 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.040 and the trailer only showed him in one scene and 98 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:43.639 it was then the rest of it was like and 99 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:48.360 then something terrible happens and Matt's thinking about revenge, and 100 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.600 I was like, well, it's not going to be Karen 101 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.360 because they know they can't get away with fridging a 102 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:57.040 female character, and I'm glad they didn't, so I suspected 103 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:04.079 and U then like, I mean, they did build the 104 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:06.639 dread in that scene very clearly, but I was like, oh, 105 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:09.560 I know where this is going. And yeah, if if 106 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.800 we hadn't already scheduled this episode, I would have stopped 107 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:13.759 watching at that point. 108 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:15.079 Yeah. 109 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:16.800 For me, it was the minute Foggy's body hit the 110 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.000 pavement where it just seemed like he was dead. 111 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:22.439 Then of course they gave us the false. 112 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.279 Hope of showing him and like they were maybe he 113 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:27.839 was going to live, but they know he actually dies. Yeah, 114 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.199 And I literally paused at that moment and was like, Okay, 115 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:34.279 can I just do a podcast about the first thirty seconds, 116 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:36.800 five minutes, however long it was. 117 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.399 Can we just talk about Foggy's beard because he looked 118 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:40.279 so good. 119 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.399 Beard was so good. 120 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:45.959 I'm a hardcore Foggy and Marcy shipper. So it was 121 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.319 very sad to see him hitting on someone else, but 122 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.519 fair enough. But then I was like, no, I girded 123 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:55.319 my loins and prepared myself, and I was like, Foggy 124 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.079 is dead. Matt is experiencing this, but I'm gonna experience 125 00:05:59.079 --> 00:05:59.439 it with him. 126 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:00.279 I'm gonna keep watch. 127 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:05.000 I mean, fifteen seconds later, I hit stop again because Matt, 128 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:06.279 the man who doesn't kill. 129 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:07.560 People, killed someone. 130 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.399 They lived, but he took an action that was fully 131 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:14.720 intended to cause the death of another person, which legally 132 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.600 attempted murder as a thing, but morally, you try to 133 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:20.000 kill someone you've killed something like. 134 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.199 I was pretty shocked. I thought, I thought, for real, 135 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:25.480 bulls I was dead in that moment. And I will 136 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.399 say in the comics because that's what I'm here for 137 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:31.920 to say. Well, in the comics, every five minutes, Matt 138 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.839 absolutely has dropped Bullseye off of a great height. He 139 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:39.600 did eventually kill him, but he has like attempted to 140 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:43.639 murder him several times. And in the comics Bulls I 141 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.839 killed both Karen and Electra so similar level of beef. 142 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.639 So I was I was shocked. But if it was 143 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:53.800 going to be anybody, it would be bulls Eye. 144 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:57.160 Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. It was just 145 00:06:57.560 --> 00:06:58.600 but even then, it was. 146 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.800 Like, why did they even bring back Wilson? Bethel is 147 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.160 at the actor replace but like for what? For this? 148 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:06.560 I thought there was gonna be a whole plot line 149 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:08.879 with him, Like why did they bring Like it just 150 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.480 feels like a waste of the whole cast. 151 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.199 But we can so I have two kind of related theories, 152 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:15.720 and I promise we'll talk about some of the other 153 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.040 parts of it. But I think, honestly, there's a lot 154 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:20.279 of ethical questions and are raised about how you make 155 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.720 things and what it means to remake something that's beloved, 156 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:25.680 and what your obligations are and things like that. 157 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.759 I feel like. 158 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.360 This feels to me like someone is intentionally trying to 159 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.319 be the Zack Snyder of the MCU, you know, in 160 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.720 that Zack Snyder is a has a take on a 161 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.800 lot of the superheroes in the DC universe that a 162 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:43.639 lot of people love. And I want to fully respect 163 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:45.959 that and say that I'm not I'm not coming at 164 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.360 it from a place of good or bad. But Schneyder 165 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.079 very intentionally, I think, started out from a place of 166 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.600 there are people who are deeply invested in Superman and 167 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:00.319 Batman and what those characters mean. I want to tell them, 168 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.680 fuck you, I don't care about your interpretations. I'm gonna 169 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:08.199 give you my interpretations. And that's what this felt like, 170 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:10.720 like I only know a little bit about the history 171 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.680 of this, but it felt like, you know, they originally 172 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:16.480 wanted to make their own thing. There's a lot of 173 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.839 fan output from people saying, hey, we really loved the 174 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:22.480 original Netflix, can you please make it in tone of that, 175 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.319 And this was a filmmaker saying, Hey, I'm gonna give you, 176 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.399 guys lots of hope. I'm gonna show you Foggy in 177 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:30.920 the trailer. I'm gonna show you Karen and the trailer. 178 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:32.679 I'm gonna give you all that hope just so I 179 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.679 can say, fuck you, how dare you be? 180 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:37.919 How dare we want that? 181 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:41.240 And go to hell that I'm making this for other people, 182 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.679 like I am projecting like hell, I'm sure it's not that, 183 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.519 you know, actually mad, But it felt like there was 184 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:52.320 an intentional effort to say, we want to tell you 185 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:54.320 that this is not gonna be the Netflix MCU. 186 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.279 Everything we love with the Netflix MCU is gone. Stop 187 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:58.279 that this is a new. 188 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:03.159 Thing, right, like symbolically killing the Netflix MCU in the 189 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:11.000 form of Foggy Nelson. I think for me, it's one 190 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.639 of those don't attribute to malice what can be attributed 191 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:19.559 to incompetence things and not incompetence. In competence is too 192 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:24.000 strong a word. So I mentioned the Rolling Stone review 193 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:27.960 of Daredevil, which I highly recommend checking out. It's very interesting. 194 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:30.600 The reviewer is more The reviewer, first of all, has 195 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.240 seen all nine episodes. We have only watched the first two, 196 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:35.840 and the reviewer is more generous to the show than 197 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:38.840 I personally feel. But one thing that they pointed, or 198 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:44.039 one comparison that they made, was comparing the way that 199 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:48.519 MCU stuff is made today to the Marvel method, which 200 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.279 is a way of making comics. Where the traditional way 201 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.279 of making comics is the writer writes a script and 202 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:56.600 then the artist draws it. But the Marvel method came 203 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:00.279 It was not invented by Stanley, but it became called 204 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.120 the Marvel method because he used it so much. He 205 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:05.759 was writing every comic at Marvel in the sixties and 206 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:08.200 he was running the company, and he couldn't write all 207 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:10.679 those scripts. So he would come up with an idea 208 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.120 and then the artists would draw the whole comic, which 209 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.279 means the artist is doing the lion's share of the 210 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:19.120 writing too. And then stan would go in and he 211 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:23.200 would write the dialogue, and sometimes his dialogue would completely 212 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:26.159 change what the comic was about and what the artist 213 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.519 had envisioned. And you can see, like we have some 214 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.159 like Jack Kirby comics where he had written one thing 215 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:36.639 and Stanley had put in something entirely different, often more sexist, 216 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:41.360 which is interesting. And this person, the Rolling Stone reviewer, 217 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.919 basically made the point that a lot of this Marvel 218 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:48.399 stuff is made by they have like a brief. They're like, Okay, 219 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.639 you're going to do a Daredevil show, and then they 220 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:53.440 make them. The writers write something and they go away forever, 221 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.120 and the director's film it, and then they also go 222 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:59.440 away forever and fig and his team like chop it 223 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:04.360 up into whatever they've decided it's going to be. And 224 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:07.720 with this show, they had filmed a lot. They had 225 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:14.799 from what I've read, they had hired new writers, new showrunners, 226 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:16.879 and they were supposed to be going in a different 227 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.919 direction that was like lighter in tone and an easier 228 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.519 jumping on point for new viewers and more Disney Plus 229 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:25.159 and less Netflix. 230 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:27.679 And more than kind of daredevil we saw on. 231 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:32.360 She Hulk, Yes, and then fig I guess didn't like it, 232 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.080 and the decision was made to and maybe it was 233 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.759 partially the fan base saying, no, we like the old show, 234 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:42.919 and so the decision was made to scrap the plan 235 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.080 so far, reuse some of the footage, bring back a 236 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.000 lot of the old cast. That was when they brought 237 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.240 back Elden Henson. That was when they brought back Debora 238 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.240 an Wall. That was when they brought back Isletzer if 239 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.000 I'm pronouncing that right, as Vanessa. They had recast her 240 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:00.720 and filmed a couple new episodes and chopped up the rest. 241 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:05.600 And so in that article there's a quote from the 242 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.960 new showrunner saying that one, I think eight and nine 243 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:13.159 were the only episodes that were made totally by them, 244 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:17.519 which means that they are trying to base Matt's arc 245 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:20.960 around the death of his best friend, even though most 246 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.279 of the episodes were initially filmed with that not being 247 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:32.159 a true thing that had happened. And so it's like 248 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:38.080 making a TV show out of found footage, Like I just, yeah, 249 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:39.120 it's not gonna work. 250 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:41.639 That at least helps me feel like it's a little 251 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.159 less malicious, although I do feel like, you know, you 252 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.159 can start it out with Hoggy's funeral, you can start 253 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.279 it out by telling us that Karen is no longer 254 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.840 going to be there, bringing the two of those characters 255 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.399 on screen and giving us what was the one thing 256 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.039 on the Netflix Emcu hadn't given us, and of the 257 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.039 three of them together, but then breaking them apart again, 258 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:08.000 especially because what they then do is recreate. Like in 259 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:10.840 the past the show has been either he's with his 260 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:13.720 two friends doing the legal work, or he's off by 261 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:17.759 himself being a vigilante. Now he's back with a legal partner, 262 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:21.600 with an investigator. It's just two new people who aren't 263 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:24.080 Foggy and anyway, So that was the part I think 264 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.080 that felt kind of like unnecessarily cruel about. 265 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.679 It, even like the way that they're handling Kirsten. She 266 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.799 is absolutely serving as the Foggy, not just as Matt's 267 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.559 legal partner, but she's like the comic relief. She's like 268 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:38.120 the funny, sassy friend who's like, you need to have 269 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:41.679 a healthy, normal life. Like that's Foggy's role. And I 270 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.960 love Kirsten McDuffie in the comics. She's a wonderful character. 271 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:49.279 I think the show, the show version of her is 272 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:54.039 not nearly as interesting so far. It's not the actress's fault. 273 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:55.559 She's doing what she can. 274 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.080 But like. 275 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.759 I mean, Foggy Nelson is my favorite Marvel character. I 276 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:06.840 don't mean my favorite character on Daredevil or my favorite 277 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.200 character in the MCU. I mean my favorite Marvel character 278 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:15.360 like Spider Man. Who yeah, and just replacing him with 279 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.679 here's a different character serving the exact same purpose but 280 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.080 not doing it as well because she's just not being 281 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.200 as well written. Again, no shade to the actress, No 282 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.200 shade to the character, it's shade to the. 283 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:27.840 Show, right. 284 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:32.799 Yeah, And then like you get rid of the Karen 285 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:35.960 character as the investigator. By the way, there's another one 286 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.840 hanging around, Jessica Jones and great. I will say that, 287 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:41.240 like they replaced Karen and Foggy with two people of color, 288 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.159 which is helping a thing of the show that was 289 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:44.240 notably not. 290 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:45.399 So great in the past. 291 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.519 But there was more of the show beyond those first 292 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:50.799 five minutes, I promise people, and we did watch them. 293 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:52.919 But I want to talk about just the one other 294 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:57.440 huge thing that happens because it may sound like what 295 00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:59.840 we're talking about is just like we're bitter fans who 296 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.600 I want to get our favorite toy to play with. 297 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:04.080 For me, that's not what this is about. This was 298 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:08.279 about fundamentally changing the tenor and tone of these characters 299 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.440 and doing so in ways that felt like it wasn't 300 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:16.639 respectful to what the original story was. And that's Matt 301 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.440 killing someone, or at least distinctly attempting to kill Dex 302 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.759 because one of the major themes of those first three 303 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.639 those first three seasons, and also of that sort of thing. 304 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:31.320 One of the major themes of the Netflix version of 305 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:35.399 the Marvel comics of the MCU is that Matt won't 306 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:37.440 kill people, and that he a couple of times is 307 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:39.639 tempted and it comes very close to killing people. But 308 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:43.000 for him, that is a line that he will not cross, 309 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.759 and he's doing all any in his power to not 310 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:51.080 cross it. And that's the heart of his discussion with Punisher. 311 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.399 When Punisher says, when when you lock them up, they 312 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.159 might get out, but when I put them down, they 313 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.440 stay down. You know, that's what Matt is arguing against, 314 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:02.759 and part of him fears that Punisher is right. And 315 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.879 so if you had given me a full season of 316 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:10.960 reminding the audience that that's a huge part of who 317 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.440 mat is. And then at the end of this season, 318 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.679 Foggy dies and in a moment of just utter anguish 319 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.240 and brokenness, yes he kills decks or at least attempts to. 320 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.559 I could have seen it, like, I'm okay with characters 321 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:28.000 changing a fundamental part of themselves when it is earned, 322 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.799 but here, especially because there's no Catholic priest he's going 323 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:35.679 to like, yes, father Landon's dead, but there are other 324 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:36.360 Catholic police. 325 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:38.960 I mean, his mom nun, you. 326 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:41.240 Can go to his nun. He you can become Jewish. 327 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.960 I don't care, Like, I mean. 328 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:45.759 He'd have to work at that. It would take him 329 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:46.120 a while. 330 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.080 But a rabbi would you say to a rabbi, I've 331 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.919 got faith based afical questions like hold the conditions right 332 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.440 and everyone can send incredibly anti sematic and the son 333 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:06.039 of a Jewish family, please understand that anyway, Like yeah, 334 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.640 it just talk to me about how you felt when 335 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.559 you saw that moment of Daredevil pushing decks off the roof. 336 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:13.839 I mean, I think you're exactly right that it didn't 337 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.799 feel earned, and I have to wonder, like what the 338 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:22.519 viewing experiences for someone who either did not watch the 339 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:30.000 original show or didn't rewatch season three and finish it 340 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.319 like on Monday like we both did, and had it 341 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:34.440 very fresh in their minds. And that's a question I 342 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:38.319 have throughout because the level of information that they seem 343 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.240 to expect viewers to have and the level of question 344 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.680 seems really inconsistent. We can talk about that later, but 345 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:51.400 in like a larger way. But if I'm new to 346 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.759 the show, or if I'm a casual viewer, like I 347 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.440 am not a casual viewer. I rewatch season one so 348 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.119 much back in twenty fifteen that when I rewatched it 349 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.480 to prepare for the new show, I realized I had 350 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:10.319 memorized large chunks of the dialogue. I'm not a casual viewer. 351 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:12.160 But if I were a casual viewer, if I had 352 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.240 never seen the show before, I'd be like, who's this 353 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.960 guy who just shot Foggy? I don't know who that is? Like, 354 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.000 they don't ever explain who he is. He's just a 355 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.400 guy who shows up. It's they show a close up 356 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.640 of his glove with a bullseye on it, and that's 357 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.680 like even his face is not shown. At no point 358 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.480 did they explain his history with Matt. In fact, at 359 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:40.000 no point did they explain, for even viewers like us 360 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.319 who are very familiar with the show, why he killed Foggy, Like, 361 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.640 how does he know that Matt cares? Because I don't 362 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:50.440 think he knows Math's secret. I did, I can't remember, 363 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.319 And I literally just watched season three a few days ago, 364 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:54.119 and I can't remember. 365 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.039 He does, but he does. We wouldn't know that. We're 366 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.000 watching this for certain, right. 367 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.559 And even with Foggy, we get a few minutes of 368 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.759 dialogue for Foggy, most of which he's having with a 369 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.799 completely different character, while Matt and Karen are discussing if 370 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.039 they should go off and have sex, which is also 371 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.920 like whoa, whoa, it's been seven years, are you guys? 372 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.880 What's going on there? Oh? Karen's written off so we'll 373 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:23.359 never find out, Like that was just another side swipe 374 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:30.279 of bad writing. But I care about Foggy because I 375 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.440 am a diehard Daredevil fan. But if I'm a new viewer, 376 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.920 if I'm a lapsed viewer, I guess use the catholic 377 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:43.319 adjacent term. Why would I care? Why would I care 378 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.319 that Foggy died? Why would I care about who this 379 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.519 guy is who killed him? And honestly, why would I 380 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.400 care if Matt killed him? Because I can't remember if 381 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.319 Matt kills people. I remember the show had a lot 382 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.200 of you know, bones breaking through skin and you know 383 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.359 eyes being ouched out and stuff, So it seems like 384 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:06.400 it just it's completely completely unearned. 385 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:08.680 Yeah, and. 386 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:12.200 Anna h who's a fan of the podcast, who have 387 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.599 been talking to a lot both yesterday while I was 388 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.119 watching it and today we're talking about it, point out 389 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.119 there's a couple of things that I want to quote, 390 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:20.079 but we'll start with this. 391 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.720 One thing she said was like, hello, he. 392 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.680 Also experienced Electra dying, and she was the steadfast companion. 393 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:30.279 She wasn't the steadfast companion or the moral anchor the 394 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.759 way Foggy was, but she was the one person who 395 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:34.559 wander stood a side of him that no one no 396 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.720 one else did. She also had a completely unique place 397 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.799 in his life. And he didn't consider killing anyone over that. 398 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.559 He doesn't struggle about whether to kill over personal impact. 399 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:46.839 And I think that's actually a really good point that 400 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.160 the only times he considers killing is when what he's 401 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.039