WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.000 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:07.879 no ads? Easy? Become a patron For just five dollars 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.800 a month, you get access to a private RSS feed 4 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:14.039 where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a 5 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:16.559 month will get you that and a special dot net 6 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:20.399 Rocks patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot 7 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:36.479 NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot net rocks. 8 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.320 I'm Carl Franklin and A'mirchrid Campbell, and we're recording this 9 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:42.920 right before we leave for dev Intersection in Orlando. But 10 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:44.479 you are not home, sir. 11 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:47.439 No, No, It'll all have been over by then. It'll 12 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:51.439 almost be, you know, Halloween, so right, I'll be in 13 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:53.520 the Netherlands when this publishes, so something. 14 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:55.039 But right now, you're not at home, are you? 15 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:57.560 I am, Yeah, I'm leaving. Oh you are. Literally we're 16 00:00:57.560 --> 00:00:59.159 recording a show and then I'm packing up to head 17 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:03.039 to the mainland tomorrow. Okay, see you in Orlando, dude. 18 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.439 All right, Okay, I thought you were on a trip before. 19 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:06.680 Maybe you were. 20 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:08.239 I don't know. I can't keep track of you. I 21 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:09.000 don't even want to. 22 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:11.040 Yeah, me neither. I don't even know where I am, 23 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:12.359 Wait a minute, are you? 24 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:14.519 Who are you? What'd you do with Richard Mind? 25 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:16.000 I'm just another AI. 26 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:20.200 Yeah right, uh well, let's you know, since this is 27 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:24.040 episode nineteen seventy four, let's talk about what happened that year, 28 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:25.799 shall we before we do anything else. 29 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.040 Oh, it's an exciting year. It's an exciting year. Nixon. 30 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:30.560 Bye bye, Where do you want to start? 31 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.159 Bye bye Nixon. Yeah, he's not a crook, but he 32 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:33.799 is resigning. 33 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:35.760 Are you sure? I don't know, I sound so sure? 34 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:39.560 Well he said so, yeah, okay, And you know, after 35 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.280 that day, we didn't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore. 36 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.040 So I think he did for a while longer, but yeah, 37 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:48.760 oh yeah, yeah, as long as I miss was alive, 38 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:50.439 he was getting kicked on a daily basis. 39 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:51.719 Yeah. 40 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.280 The Turkish military invaded Cyprus following a coup, leading to 41 00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:00.359 a division of the island and increased international tensions. 42 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.000 Which still persists this day. That division in Cyprus. 43 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:07.840 The Carnation Revolution occurred in Portugal. That's a coup resulting 44 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:12.759 in the overthrow of the authoritarian regime. So the FIFA 45 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:15.879 World Cup took place in West Germany, where the host 46 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:18.919 nation defeated the Netherlands two to one to win the championship. 47 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:23.240 Just in case you were wondering, the boxing match known 48 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:26.759 as the Rumble in the Jungle featured Muhammad Ali defeating 49 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:33.199 George Foreman in Zaire. Ali would go forward to have 50 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.240 a great after career life in George Foreman sold grills. 51 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:39.280 He did a lot more than that. He had seven kids, 52 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:46.039 all named George. The Swedish pop group Abba won the 53 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.560 Eurovision Song Contest with their song Waterloo, making the start 54 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:53.280 of their successful career. Have you seen the Eurovision Song 55 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:54.639 Contest recently, Richard? 56 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:57.360 Not recently, No, but I'm aware of it. You don't 57 00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:58.919 want to, okay. 58 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:03.080 Some significant the film's release include The Godfather Part two, Chinatown, 59 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.639 and Blazing Saddles, all movies that probably couldn't be made 60 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:12.400 today in my opinion. I'm going to talk about the 61 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:17.599 Terracotta Warriors. The first of those were discovering Jiang, China, unbelievable, 62 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.919 leading to significant archaeological finds. What do you know about 63 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:22.520 the terracotta warriors, Richard. 64 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.360 I've been there, but just you know, I know that 65 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.039 once they were exposed, they started to decay, like a 66 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:28.319 lot of the paint was still on them. When they 67 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:30.280 first were found, but. 68 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.599 They were made to with the with the emperor, I 69 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:37.639 suppose in the grave to protect him, right. 70 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.360 Yeah, that's the that's the idea. Like nobody really knows 71 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.960 for sure, but the Yeah, you'd have to see this thing. 72 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.000 It's unbelievably vast. Yeah, and the crazy part is, like 73 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:49.639 archaeology is not a huge thing in China, They've only 74 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:52.479 done a little. There's so much more to be found there. 75 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.680 And this is a culture that's been around literally for millennia. Yeah, 76 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:58.919 you're talking these things are what two thousand or so 77 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:00.800 years old, but there's so much more. 78 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.599 I think the crazy part is that people actually built 79 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.560 thousands of terracotta warriors and stuffed them in a grave. Yeah, 80 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:07.560 that's kind of crazy. 81 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:11.080 It speaks to the wealth of that country at that time, 82 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:12.960 right that they could afford to do such just like 83 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:16.160 building pyramids. Like, clearly you have too much money, right 84 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.360 if you can build these things. But that, yeah, it's 85 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:20.560 another example of that. 86 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.600 So what happened in science and Tech and seventy four Richard. 87 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.879 Not a big space year. Mariner ten made it to Mercury, 88 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:29.879 the first probe to ever do that, actually do two 89 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.600 flybys of Mercury, and that would be the only visit 90 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:35.839 to Mercury in the twentieth century. That would be the 91 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:40.040 Messenger spacecraft in the twenty first century. And that's about it. 92 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.120 There's a couple of soused flights to sal you there's 93 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:44.279 the plans for the Apollo Soy use missions, but they 94 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.360 won't happen until the next year, so not a big 95 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:48.240 year in space. 96 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:51.759 And like Venus, Mercury is not a very hospitable planet. 97 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.759 Well, it's awfully close to the Sun. It's very very hot, 98 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.240 no atmosphere at all. Yeah, but still interesting, you know, 99 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.720 and certainly something so we're studying further tricky to get 100 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:04.519 to takes a lot of energy to get there. 101 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.920 Do we actually get data from it before it burned up? 102 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.600 Oh yeah, No, it's not that close. Was able to 103 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.319 orbit around fly bys Mercury. You know, going into orbit 104 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.120 around Mercury is very challenging. We won't do that for 105 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:15.720 quite some time. 106 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:19.920 The first reporting on the destruction of the ozone layer 107 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:24.279 nineteen seventy four and will lead in a few years 108 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.639 to the thing called the Montreal Accords. Well, we'll band 109 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:29.920 CFC's and ultimate allow the ozone layer to repair itself 110 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:32.319 a successful story and turns out it worked. It worked. 111 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.839 Yeah, I'm giving away the ending. We can do those 112 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.639 kinds of things, people, We can. We absolutely can. And 113 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:40.720 I use that as an example when we talk about the 114 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:45.600 current crisses. The first edition of Dungeons and Dragons is published. 115 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:50.360 Gary Gygax and Dave Arnison from TSR derived from an 116 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:53.680 earlier game played with miniatures and went. 117 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:56.759 On to make geeks even geek here for many, many years. 118 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.160 Oh yeah, but and I would say this is by 119 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:01.199 far from in our part of the world. The most 120 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:03.959 important thing happened in seventy four. Right at the end 121 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:07.600 of nineteen seventy four, the mits altear eighty eight hundred. 122 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.639 So this was not the only personal computer at the time. 123 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.000 There were kits you could buy that would just be 124 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:15.639 give you and you'd have to put together the parts 125 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.120 and so forth. This was the first assembled machine based 126 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.800 on the Intel eighty eighty. The design would largely lead 127 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:24.720 to the S one hundred bus machine. In general, you 128 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:26.720 could only had to set at LEDs on the front end. 129 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:28.959 You would program it with switches, or you could add 130 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.079 a serial card to it to have a teletype interface. 131 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.199 Otherwise just not display no keyboard under that stuff. Yeah, 132 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:38.879 and it was popular electronics. Is this magazine that was 133 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:43.439 actually driving One of their rival magazines had published this 134 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:45.759 kit on their cover, and they wanted to make sure 135 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:47.560 they had something as well. So they were pushing and 136 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:50.279 my admits to get this thing done in time. And 137 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:52.399 so nominally it was on the cover of the January 138 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.279 nineteen seventy five edition, but it was actually put on 139 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:58.199 new stands in December seventy four, so I included the 140 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:02.560 seventy four And why is it important? This is Microsoft's 141 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.720 founding product. That cover is the thing that got Gates 142 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.800 to drop out of Harvard and moved to Albuquerque and 143 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.000 write a version of Basic would later be known as 144 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.720 the Altar Basic, which was Microsoft's very first. 145 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.160 Product, and he wrote it with the Altair. 146 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.279 He used the alt He actually wrote it on a 147 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.160 different machine because he didn't have one. He wrote it 148 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:26.199 on a machine at Harvard, a lot of it by 149 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:28.600 hand and by hand figured it all out because they 150 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:31.600 had to run in four K, and then brought it 151 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:34.279 down there and coated it in to test it. But 152 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.079 the first time he already had it written before the 153 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:37.920 first time he actually laid hand on an altar because 154 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:39.839 there wasn't any of them, and the name Altar actually 155 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.759 comes from the star Alta, although there's an apocryphal or 156 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.079 adjacent story of the fact that around that same time, 157 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.439 in the late seventies, the television show Star Trek had 158 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:52.560 an episode on a mock time where they go to 159 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:56.519 Altair six, and since it was a star of a technology, 160 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:58.560 they ought to have a cool name, not just a number, 161 00:07:58.560 --> 00:07:59.079 so they called it. 162 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.680 So I've seen pick of the Altear and you're right. 163 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.439 It has like switches where you can turns the zeros 164 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:07.920 into the ones on and then press the button to 165 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.040 write it into memory. It kind of reminds me of 166 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:13.279 a pressure cooker, you know, like, well, it's just a box, right, 167 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:16.399 it's a issue here is it's turning over. It's before 168 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:21.079 RAM exists. Yeah, so you had to hand key the bootloader. Wow, 169 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.720 it was like one hundred and seventeen bytes something like that. 170 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:27.439 So you literally so booed up was a process. Was 171 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.519 literally once you got that thing running, you didn't want 172 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.000 to turn it off. Power goes out. 173 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:34.240 No, Yeah, and this is they weren't even using cassette 174 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.639 tapes at this point. The first versions of Basic were 175 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:41.360 on this paper tape with holes punched in it that 176 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.759 they that the thing could read in to load up 177 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:45.480 the version of Basic. It was a very small version 178 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:47.039 of Basic because there's only four k RAM and you 179 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.600 still have to run your program too, right, So. 180 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:53.320 They really only had mainframes before that, right, main four 181 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:53.679 or less. 182 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.440 And many the PDPs are around, right, the mini computers, 183 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:57.720 but they're all. 184 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.080 Using cards, so it makes sense that they would be 185 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:01.679 using that technology. 186 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.519 He uses paper tape. And there's no copy of the 187 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.159 original ALTA Basic. I think it exists anywhere. There is 188 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:12.960 a version of the advanced version of that Basic in 189 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:17.320 the Computer History Museum in the Silicon Valley, signed by Gates, 190 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.200 and I think it was Gates's actual copy of it. 191 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:20.720 Wow. 192 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.039 And so yeah, yeah, the original original it starts the 193 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:24.720 whole company. 194 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.679 I think it's gone. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, so the 195 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.519 history of dot net starts in nineteen seventy four, doesn't. 196 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:34.039 Theoretically, I mean it's beginning of Microsoft. But yeah, yeah, 197 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:36.919 all right in Albuquerque. Wow, good one. 198 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:41.200 So let's start then next with better no framework? 199 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:41.600 Awesome? 200 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:51.960 Al what you got? Do you use bitwarden? So do? 201 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.440 I I love Bitwarden? Did you know that you can 202 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:55.919 run it on prem Yeah. 203 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.519 Yeah, the open source product, right as it should be. 204 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.399 Yeah, I didn't know this, and then I found the 205 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:07.759 Bitwarden server get repository and apparently you know, so, like 206 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:09.039 I said, I didn't know it. I thought it was 207 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.559 a product that you subscribe to, and it is. But 208 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.879 if you want to run it yourself in. 209 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:14.799 There, you can use it for free or you can 210 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:15.399 pay them like. 211 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.159 You and so what's really cool about this is that 212 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.039 you know, hey, maybe we don't even want to trust 213 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:25.440 bitwarden dot com with our passwords. Maybe we want to 214 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.519 you know, keep all our data behind the firewall and 215 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.320 wherever we want to put it, and you know, to 216 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.320 be more secure. I mean, whether it is or not, 217 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.559 I don't know, but at least that's an option. So 218 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.600 you can download the server. It has all the APIs 219 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.440 and everything that you need to run it. You can 220 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:46.759 even run it on a Windows machine. You can run 221 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.200 it in Docker containers on a Windows machine if you 222 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.000 want to. Of course, Linux and Mac it's all there. 223 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:54.799 It's really really cool and. 224 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:57.279 If we have made it clear, it's a password manager. Yes, 225 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:02.000 you know, you can buy commercial products like one passes 226 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:06.080 and so forth. But This is also one I've fallen 227 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:07.960 on too. I had to leave last pass when last 228 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.279 pass went insane. Me too, Yeah, which, by the way, 229 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:12.960 I found migrating off the last pass less painful than 230 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.919 I thought. Yep, I was dreading it. But the only 231 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.559 real problem with a migrating from between password managers is 232 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.440 at some point you're going to generate a CSV file 233 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:23.240 of every single password in your life, and that will 234 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:25.320 be upsetting. Well, the real way to do it is 235 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:29.759 to just find the list of domains that you have 236 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.440 passwords for in last past and go to each one 237 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.679 of them and say, hey, I forgot my password, and 238 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:37.440 go through the whole process of generation. Yeah. I mean, 239 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:39.879 it's a terrible thing to do if you've got hundreds 240 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:41.919 of them, but you know, in the reality is you 241 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.000 can migrate your passwords over the other one, but you 242 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:45.919 should probably change me after that and do yourself a 243 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.919 favor delete that file when you're done. Absolutely, that file 244 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.279 shouldn't exist. That files bad. What file? Yeah, and I'm 245 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:55.799 super keen to get to pass keys. I just think 246 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:58.000 passkey's still a half baked so. 247 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:02.080 Yeah, they're not quite there yet. I like one global 248 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:03.639 authenticator app would be really good. 249 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:04.679 For me. Yeah, I don't know. 250 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:06.960 Not nine authenticator apps, not ten? 251 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:07.799 Good luck with that. 252 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:09.399 Just one is all I want. 253 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.600 I think there's a I's pretty sure there's an SKCD 254 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.120 cartoon about this. It's like, we need a standard for everything. 255 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:21.919 Now there's ten. Yay, Yeah, that's right. Remember scuzzy SCSI. Yeah, 256 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.240 wasn't one of the SA's standing for standard. Yes, that's yeah. 257 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.519 You know, how would that work out? No, there are 258 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:30.679 no standards. Everybody fights against them. 259 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:32.840 All right, Well that's what I got. Richard, who's talking to. 260 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:35.000 Us today, jumped into the wayback machine because we haven't 261 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:38.279 talked about stuff like specification driven development in a long time, 262 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:40.519 but we have talked about it. And I grabbed a 263 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.480 comment off a show nine to twenty one. Wow, this 264 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.919 is when we talked about the product Cucumber working with 265 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.799 behavior driven development Matt Wins show back in twenty thirteen. 266 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.240 We've got a ton of comments on that show. Not surprising. Yeah, 267 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:58.279 and gap has a Utz had this commed. He said, well, 268 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.120 I had no real world experience with to driven development 269 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:03.279 until now I've to use it on a new, relatively 270 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:09.360 small project and we're now working on I'm really I'm 271 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.759 trying to get to the place is what he's talking about, 272 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.600 where you have an executical specification. And I just thought 273 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:17.759 this comment was really relevant because we think about what 274 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.360 we're doing with prompting with lllms these days, as could 275 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.279 almost be an executable specification rather than having a separate document. 276 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.159 It's supposed to document what the system does, but it's 277 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.279 always out of sync, like what's the what do we 278 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.159 make rules around all of this? But it would be 279 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.279 cool to actually get on these large projects that we 280 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.720 have a set of documentation that in this game were 281 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:43.559 talking about. Cucumber generated the test to say does the 282 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.919 software does what it's supposed to do? But I, you know, now, 283 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:51.159 thinking ten years on looking at gatus as common, I'm like, wow, 284 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.240 look where we are right now with the next generation 285 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.600 of tools and another way of thinking about how we 286 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:02.360 write a specification about an application and then how that 287 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:04.559 specification turns into executable code. 288 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:08.879 Cucumber was like all use cases, right, yeah, Like as 289 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.320 a user, I want to be able to blay blah 290 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:14.279 blah blah, and yeah, yeah, very cool. 291 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.039 Yeah, it was acceptance testing, right, You're supposed to be 292 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:19.559 able to write it in English, Like I don't know. 293 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:21.679 I'll include a link to cucumber. Folks want to take 294 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:23.519 a look at it. It would take a minute for 295 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:24.919 me to go back and look at this now, just 296 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:30.080 thinking about what lms have done to this whole space. Sure, anyway, Gattis, 297 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:31.679 thank you so much for your comment, and a copy 298 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:33.039 of music code By is on its way to you. 299 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:34.399 And if you'd like a copy of music cobe I, 300 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.480 write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot 301 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:38.720 com or on the Facebook. We publish every show there, 302 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.080 and if you comment there and I read in the show, 303 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:41.320 I'll send you copy of music cobe. 304 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.360 I was just using music to code By to prepare 305 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:47.600 for my talks nice next week, and it's still going strong. 306 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:52.919 Twenty two tracks, twenty five minutes long, designed for the 307 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:56.240 Pomodoro technique, but not necessarily. You don't have to have 308 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:56.679 a clock. 309 00:14:58.360 --> 00:14:58.559 You know. 310 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:02.559 They're neither boring or too exciting. They're just in that 311 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:06.679 middle space. They're just too right. Get you into a 312 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:11.080 state of flow and keep you there, okay. Den de 313 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.519 la Marski is our guest. He is a principal product 314 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.159 engineer currently working at Microsoft, where he helps build developer 315 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.840 tools in AI powered experiences that make engineers more productive. 316 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:25.440 Den started his engineering journey all the way back in 317 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:26.080 the nineties. 318 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.799 Oh god, all the way back, all the way back, 319 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:30.759 a long time ago. 320 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:32.960 All the way back in the nineties. 321 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:36.720 I did I tell you that I listened to your 322 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:38.399 podcast when I was in middle school? 323 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:39.679 Oh my god. 324 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:45.039 Yeah, excuse me, take some geritol right now, Hang on 325 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:45.480 a second. 326 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:46.720 Yeah, yeah, all right. 327 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:48.759 So in the nineties with the three eighty six box 328 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.320 that was verily enough to run Doss games. He's upgraded 329 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:56.159 since then. He has spent plenty of time writing code 330 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:59.000 and visual basics six oh, but for more than two 331 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:03.720 decades now he's writing see sharp and Python and there's more. Dan, welcome, 332 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.960 thank you, so happy to be here. I'm such a 333 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.000 fan of Dunn at Rocks. 334 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.240 That's great. Wow. 335 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.120 Well, after reading your bio, I'm a fan of yours 336 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:15.480 TB six. I mean, I was there, we were there. 337 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:16.519 I missed those days. 338 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.000 I missed the days of just me like popping an ID, 339 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.480 using the forum, designers, dropping some progress bars on clicking 340 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:24.879 the buttons and things are. 341 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:28.399 Just working well and not having to sign into an app. 342 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:32.399 Nice and not having to sign in Ye, that was 343 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:34.559 a product that was made fun of. You know, it 344 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:38.240 wasn't real programming back in the day, and we were 345 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.519 crying all the way to the bank as we knocked 346 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.440 out the things that our customers actually needed in less time. 347 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.919 I was there at BB one. Oh, I was there 348 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:51.440 and quick Basic com pts Before. 349 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.840 That, Yeah, yeah, no, I spent I did my time 350 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:58.440 in the in MFC crashing windows repeatedly and wondering what 351 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.240 I was doing wrong. VB showed out like this is better. 352 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.440 What you do is you find yourself an MFCC plus 353 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.039 plus programmer and then you just partner with them to 354 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:10.480 do the hard stuff. 355 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:11.319 Yeah. 356 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:12.960 I gotta say, I just don't know that there was 357 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:14.920 not that much stuff that was that hard. Like I 358 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:17.160 love VB six, but you know, the one thing that 359 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.359 just kind of annoyed me about it is when Windows 360 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.519 XP came out and it had all these super nice 361 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.039 styles and everything, and just VV six was constantly stuck 362 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:26.680 in the Windows ninety five and I was like, oh, 363 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.119 come on, man, Like, can I just get the nice 364 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:31.759 progress bar, the nice button with the shadow. 365 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:33.359 And you could if you went third party. They all 366 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.359 adapted their stuff. Yeah, they had read through everything, but. 367 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:38.960 I was broke and I had no money, I couldn't 368 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.680 get that party. Well, and we didn't know that Microsoft 369 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:45.319 was changing gears, right, like, yeah, that there wasn't going 370 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:47.400 to be a VB seven right, Yeah. 371 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.319 Those were the days days of drama. 372 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.960 Yeah. So but that's talk to me about spec driven development, 373 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:54.960 den What have you been up to here? What is 374 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.039 this all? Right? 375 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:58.920 So folks might have seen that about a month ago, 376 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.680 we work with our friends at get hub to release 377 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.400 this thing called spec Kit. So if you go to 378 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.720 get up dot com slash, get up slash spec dash Kit. 379 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:12.799 Spec Kit is nothing super magical. It's basically a set 380 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.279 of templates, prompts, and scripts. And the whole purpose for 381 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.160 that is that when we talk to folks that try 382 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.400 to build software llms, like, there's a large swath of 383 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.319 folks that are just very excited about the fact that, oh, 384 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.119 I don't have to write boilerplate code, I don't have 385 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.680 to write my tests from scratch because I can just 386 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.359 you know, use quad code to do that stuff. So 387 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:38.440 as we talk to more of these customers, especially customers 388 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.039 and like bigger companies, customers that want to build something 389 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:45.359 that is going beyond what we refer to as vibe coding. Oh, 390 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.880 I'm building a podcast landing page, like, oh, yeah, you 391 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.440 can vibe code that in the day. If you're building 392 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.400 a i don't know, like a CRM or like a 393 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.599 plugin for a CRM, all of a sudden you're in 394 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.319 the world of hurt because you're getting into this state 395 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:02.000 of now I need to go and just constantly prompt 396 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.920 for changes, and then things went off the rails and 397 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:07.480 I need to go back somehow and then redo it. 398 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.319 But now I don't have any history. So for that 399 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.400 we thought, okay, we have an idea for an experiment. 400 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:20.160 What if all of this stuff can be encoded into specs? 401 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.880