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Hi, 7 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.679 this is Carl Franklin. 8 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:25.480 And this is Richard Campbell. 9 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:30.000 We've got two special shows coming up soon, episode nineteen 10 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:32.039 ninety nine and two thousand. 11 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:35.079 For episode nineteen ninety nine, we're collecting people's y two 12 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:37.560 k stories what did you do to help the Y 13 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:39.719 two k event not actually happen? 14 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.960 And for episode two thousand, we're going to be sharing 15 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.479 stories about how dot net shaped your career. 16 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.719 We have a special page at dot netroocks dot com 17 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.159 slash voxpop where you can record messages for us that 18 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:54.000 we can play on these special episodes. 19 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:56.479 So tell us what you did for Y two k 20 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.039 and what dot net means to you, and of course 21 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:00.960 how long you've been listening to dot net rocks. 22 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:04.439 So go to dot netroocks dot com slash vox pop 23 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:06.480 now and leave us a message before the thought of 24 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.200 operates like whiskey left in a glass overnight. 25 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:09.640 Do it? 26 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:24.120 Hey, and welcome back to dot net Rocks. I'm Carl 27 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:26.959 Franklin and I'm Richard Campbell. Damian Brady is here with us. 28 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:31.400 You'll probably hear him before I introduce him formally. But 29 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:37.000 this being show nineteen ninety, we need to talk about 30 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:37.959 what happened that year. 31 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:39.879 Don't wait, you're big years, aren't they? 32 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:42.000 They know? Oh yeah, big years. 33 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:45.760 Yeah. So I remember nineteen ninety because that's the year 34 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.159 I got married the first time, and my wife and 35 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:52.920 I were watching television and you know, we heard about 36 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:56.599 the Berlin Wall coming down and the reunification of Germany 37 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.959 and that was just like it was a crazy, crazy cool. 38 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.799 You think about how many pieces were involved in doing that, because, 39 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:06.599 sure me it being broken up after World War Two, 40 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:08.560 so you had to have the agreement of all of 41 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:12.919 the states that were involved in that, which includes Russia, 42 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.319 right or the Soviet Union at that time, and then 43 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:22.240 unification of the currency, the complete dismantling of the eastern 44 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.360 the Eastern Germany political system essentially to go over to 45 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:28.879 the western one. I'm like it was huge, huge task. 46 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:32.360 I went back to college that year, and so I 47 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.960 remember my history teacher was a Cthiopian guy, and he 48 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.280 was just like, just can you believe this is the garbageoff, 49 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:42.680 just like you know, who saw that coming? 50 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:44.560 And my. 51 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.039 Economics teacher, a macroeconomics class that I had, she was 52 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.960 like a protest hippie from the sixties, you know, and 53 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.879 she said, we used to go around saying free Nelson Mandela, 54 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:01.360 and now he's free. So that was yeah, February eleventh. 55 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:03.080 That happened in nineteen ninety as well. 56 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:04.159 Yeah, February eleventh. 57 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.680 So and then she also saw what started in eighty 58 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:09.719 nine with the dissolution of the Eastern Bloc. Now you 59 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:13.919 start having elections in Poland and in Czechoslovakia and the 60 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:14.800 former Yugoslavia. 61 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.520 But it wasn't so good for Yugoslavia though, that was 62 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:20.520 collapsing there, the communist regime. 63 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:23.680 Yeah, and they separates nations that form from that and 64 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:25.759 they are quite hostile to each other. So things are 65 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:27.879 going to get ugly in that part of the world. 66 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:32.000 And they would go to war in the next few years. Yeah. 67 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:34.919 The beginning of the human genome projects. Not to steal 68 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:37.759 your science, but it's good that's a good one. 69 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.120 Yeah, and it take years and years, but look where 70 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:42.240 we are today. I forgot. They spent what two and 71 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:44.639 a half billion dollars to do that over a decade, 72 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.960 and today you can get it for three hundred bucks. Yeah, 73 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:50.039 so pretty amazing, you know, talk about transformation. Hey, before 74 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:52.520 we go off of the whole Eastern Bloc thing. Most importantly, 75 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.759 in nineteen ninety, Moscow gets its first McDonald's wow, and 76 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:58.080 its first pizza Hut. 77 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:00.400 That was the real reason they wanted to of the 78 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.960 Soviet Union, right, so he could bring McDonald's and pizza 79 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:03.560 Hut in there. 80 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.360 I don't know the answer to that. By the way, 81 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:08.879 they're also opening in China at the same time, so 82 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:10.199 that was going on as well. 83 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:11.919 Yeah, any others. 84 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.560 Go ahead, No, that's enough. I mean I would go 85 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:16.920 over the movies, but the best movies are in the eighties. 86 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:17.319 We know that. 87 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:19.199 So yeah, yeah, I think we've already had that wave. 88 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:23.079 I will go one more geopolitical mention, which is the 89 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:26.360 Iraqi invision of could wait that's right? Yeah, yeah, obviously 90 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:28.920 we'll have more dire consequences, although it takes time for 91 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:30.199 folks to really have that sink in. 92 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:34.439 Yeah, absolutely. I know you're going to do science and tech, 93 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.759 but I just want to apologize because last week I 94 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:40.639 said nineteen eighty nine was the beginning of the world 95 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.720 Wide Web. Tim berners lead didn't actually invent that until 96 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.879 nineteen ninety. So he developed the first web server, laying 97 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:48.519 the foundation. 98 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.240 Yeah, he put the proposal in in nineteen eighty nine 99 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.759 to Thurn in December. Yes, yeah, you know, and this 100 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:56.879 is in March of eighty nine. He put the proposal 101 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:01.360 in Oh okay, March and turned him down. 102 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.160 We don't need that. That's not a good idea time on. 103 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:07.079 What do you think the people that turned him down 104 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.959 to sleep at night? Do you think they're just like, ah, 105 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:11.560 that was done. 106 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.360 Fortunately, he kind of just kept working on it, and 107 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:17.560 his direct report, his boss was fine with him still 108 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:20.879 working on it. And yeah, by nineteen ninety on his 109 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:22.879 next computer. And you can go see this machine. It's 110 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:24.879 at certain I've seen. It's got a big label on it. Yeah, 111 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.560 it says server do not turn off. And that's really cool. 112 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.560 First web server, the first browser, all of it. 113 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:33.560 I gotta go see it. 114 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:34.279 It's really a thing. 115 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:36.680 So what else happened in science and tech and space? 116 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:39.519 Let's do Internet first. I'll do space last. Although I 117 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:44.040 think the computing stuff is huge, because the Internet obviously 118 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:48.600 has a very big year. Was not only just tim 119 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:51.720 getting the WWW working, but this is when the first 120 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.279 search engine comes out. It's called Archie, written by team 121 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:58.480 of three Allen Mtaje, Bill heal And and Mike Parker out 122 00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:59.720 of McGill, University of Montreal. 123 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.079 There's a whole bunch of named things that were about 124 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:06.079 Archie and Veronica and all that, that whole comic strip. 125 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:09.519 Yeah, and it all happened now right like this expansion, 126 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.160 Like really, what's happened is that we don't have the 127 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:14.839 Internet yet. It's arpendet, but this is the year that 128 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.160 arpaet goes away and it becomes nsf net or National 129 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:21.920 Science Foundation Network. So they're understanding it isn't the Cold 130 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:25.759 War tool anymore. It's not that that. It's it's something else. 131 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.199 So besides Archie, you also get in Gopher this year 132 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.600 out of Minnesota University of Minnesota, which was a search 133 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:33.319 and retrieval tool. 134 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:33.560 Yeah. 135 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:35.720 Remember we're only at one hundred thousand or so machine, 136 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.759 so it's still reasonable for your computer to search everything. 137 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:43.439 Gopher was like file folders on the Internet. It was 138 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.399 like a hierarchical file folders system and you can. 139 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.759 Go fetch the files as you want, all right, so beyond. 140 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.279 This is also the year that the Electronic Frontier. 141 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:53.800 Foundation is formed. 142 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:55.920 Ah, Mitch kpar Yeah, don't forget that. 143 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.399 And John Perry Barlow who went to write songs with 144 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.000 Bob We're for the Grateful Dead, Cassidy being one of 145 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.560 my favorites. 146 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:03.160 Nice. Yeah. 147 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:06.199 This is the year that the first company in history 148 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.759 ever makes more than a billion dollars in sales. And 149 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:13.160 that company is Microsoft. And what are they selling in 150 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:18.319 nineteen ninety Windows three, MS DOS and Windows Yeah. So 151 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:20.639 this is when version three comes out. It's the first 152 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.079 multitasking version of Windows, so if you have a three 153 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.240 D six or better, you can have multiple apps running simultaneously. 154 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:29.160 It's also the first version to include Solitaire, which is 155 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:33.560 clearly worth a billion dollars. It's also the first edition 156 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:38.519 of Microsoft Office. It was called the Microsoft Office for Windows, 157 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.240 included Word one point one, Excel two point one D, 158 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:44.360 and PowerPoint two point zero. 159 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:44.600 Wow. 160 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.040 It's also the year that Microsoft and IBM and their 161 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.160 relationship on operating systems. That's the MMOs two And this 162 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.120 is the beginning of NT and all those sorts of things. 163 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:55.319 You have two other important pieces of software. This is 164 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:58.759 the first version of Photoshop is in nineteen ninety only 165 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.879 for the mac's the beginning of it. And one you 166 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.879 know and love snagg It is in nineteen ninety. 167 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:06.720 Yeah. All right. 168 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:09.360 On the space side, I'll go down two stacks. There 169 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:12.399 are six Shuttle flights this year. A lot of them 170 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:14.759 are just satellite missions, but there are three I will 171 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:15.759 talk about specifically. 172 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:16.680 In April. 173 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.920 Spatial Discovery deploys the Hubble space telescope. 174 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:21.480 That's right. 175 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.399 Originally supposed to launch in nineteen eighty three, delayed by 176 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.120 the Challenger disaster and also budget. There's some evidence that 177 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.160 it was actually based on the KH eleven spy satellite, 178 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:33.240 which is still classified, so we don't really know for sure, 179 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.240 but every image of it looks an awful lot like novel. 180 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:39.320 Probably was a prototype that wasn't quite right for their application, 181 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:40.759 so they gave it to NASA and they built the 182 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:44.720 saddle the Hubble around it two point four meter mirror 183 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:47.279 that was, of course, in ninety ninety discovered to a 184 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:50.159 big ground incorrectly, and it'll be a few years before 185 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:52.039 they figure out how to fix that. So it didn't 186 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:52.480 work all like it. 187 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:54.840 So I just got to say this, this is my 188 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:59.799 favorite David Letterman top ten top ten Hubble space tell 189 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:03.919 Us scope excuses, and the number one was bum with squeegee, 190 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:05.480 smeared lens at stopped light. 191 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:11.799 All right. 192 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:15.440 Two more Shuttle missions. One is Discovery in October launching 193 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.000 the Ulysses Solar probe. This there's been solar pros for this, 194 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:20.879 but what Elysses did it was with the ESA that 195 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.159 they did. This one is they actually did a slingshot 196 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:26.519 maneuver off of Jupiter so that they could get imaging 197 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.240 of the poles of the Moon that had never been 198 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.759 done before. It meant that its orbit ran several years long. 199 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:34.759 It was a very large elliptical orbit, but it means 200 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:36.519 they've got the first images of the North and South 201 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:40.679 poles of the Sun. And finally Colombia and December with 202 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:44.200 the Space Labs with Astro one. So space Lab was 203 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:47.279 this laboratory before the space station came along. 204 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:47.759 It was in the. 205 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.679 Cargo compartment of the space station, gave more pressurized space 206 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.120 to work in, and in behind that was this non 207 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:57.679 pressurized palate. There were a few different options for spacelab 208 00:09:57.720 --> 00:09:59.320 doping what're doing. This is the first time they flew 209 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:03.120 with Astro one, which was four telescopes mounted on a 210 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:06.360 pointing rig built by Darnier out the back of the 211 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.480 shuttle and the four satellite. The four telescopes were the 212 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:13.799 Hopkins ultra violet telescope, the Wisconsin Ultraviolet Photo Parimeter, the 213 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.000 experiment the Ultravallet Imaging telescope, and the Broadband X ray telescope. Wow, 214 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.960 so lots of science. And I promised that I'd be 215 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.639 talking about Mirror going forward, And in nineteen ninety the 216 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:28.639 Crystal Module is lifted for mir This was a experimental 217 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.600 module that had materials processing furnaces on it, so they 218 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.320 were attempting to make ultra puer versions silicon and a 219 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.679 bunch of other experiments. They also had one of the 220 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:45.000 very first androgynist docking ports, initially for the Brand Shuttle, 221 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.960 which of course would only have flown once a few 222 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.600 years ago, will never fly again, but that port would 223 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:53.600 be used by Spatial Atlantis at nineteen ninety five at 224 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:57.759 the first dockings of space to the Shuttle to Mirror. 225 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:00.399 Okay, and that's what I got, all right, that's very 226 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:03.440 good stuff. Yeah, and I think Damien's just kind of 227 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.679 quiet because it's like seven o'clock in the morning where 228 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:06.440 you are, right. 229 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:09.600 It's it's not too bad. It's I but I mean 230 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:11.799 I was listening to all this. It's fascinating. I was ten, 231 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:17.200 so yeah. Yeah, although that's the first computer I ever 232 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.879 got was that year nineteen ninety. Yeah, and I say 233 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:25.080 I got dad hadn't have had some stay over it. Yeah. Yeah, 234 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.080 he slowly lost control over it over the next few years. 235 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.279 I suspect ten years old is one I got grabbed 236 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:32.799 by computing too, dude, just a few years earlier than years. 237 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:36.240 Well yeah, yeah, well let's keep going with better no 238 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:47.639 framework roll the music got so I thought when I 239 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.879 found you know, I look for trending GitHub repos right 240 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.000 and I found this one. And when I saw it, 241 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:59.120 I thought, I swore that we had done this before, 242 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:06.279 but apparently not. Maybe it was I just don't know. Anyway. 243 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:11.440 This is hardened Windows Security from hot Cake X. And 244 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:17.240 it's not code really, it's documentation. It's hardened Window security, 245 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:21.799 a new threat to malware, hardened Windows safely securely with 246 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:28.759 only official Microsoft methods. So it's basically you know, documentation 247 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:33.120 and all the things that you need to know to 248 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.360 shore up your Windows security, which is really becoming more 249 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.240 and more and more important for everyday people to do, 250 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:45.440 especially you know, those who don't understand what the difference 251 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:49.120 is between just plugging into your cable modem and using 252 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:53.720 a router and using net addresses and private networks and 253 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.039 allowing your friends to come over and access your Wi Fi. 254 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.279 Can they access your machine? It's like, there's so many 255 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:06.000 things people need to know about Windows security. And you 256 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.679 may not think that, oh, well, I trust my friends, 257 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:10.879 but you know what, somebody could be sitting outside your 258 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.840 driveway and hacking your stuff. So all sorts of things 259 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:16.360 to know here. 260 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:18.639 I think it's important to remember that Windows is configured 261 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.679 for maximum compatibility, not maximum security, right, and so often 262 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.200 there's a whole lot of features that turned on that 263 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.080 are very much edge cases. But you know, normal people 264 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.080 that those things weren't turned on would return the machines 265 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:31.120 that didn't work for them, and that's more expensive to 266 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.320 Microsoft than leaving it somewhat unsecure. So it's well worth 267 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:35.559 running on so many tools. 268 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.799 As our friend Patrick Hines likes to say, convenience is 269 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.960 the enemy of security and vice versa totally. So that's 270 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:43.879 what I got. Richard, who's talking to us today? 271 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.519 We grab a Colmin Hot Show fourteen twenty five. 272 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:48.080 That's right, baby, going back to the way. 273 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:49.960 Back we should good nine years ago. Wow, the show 274 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.039 is called brown Field DevOps with one Damien Brady. Maybe 275 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:57.679 you've heard of them. So it's just we actually shot 276 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.639 this at NDC Lendon. You and I in a booth 277 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.159 with Damien. Back in the day we were talking. You know, 278 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.679 the demops movement was more mature than it is twenty seventeen. 279 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:07.679 Asould I say, how do we take these practices and 280 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:10.519 put them on to existing applications, sort of get them 281 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.200 geared up to the way they ought to be and 282 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:15.840 at least comments a few years old. Robert Mattingley says, 283 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.879 thanks for the great show, guys. Legacy shows are always 284 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:21.639 stock provoking. But the common trend seems to be defining 285 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:25.600 the term quote legacy code. It's kind of subject discussed. 286 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.879 It needs to be redefined for our current conversation. I 287 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:30.440 think the big hairy problem is that we use the 288 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.200 term legacy to define three separate categories of code. The 289 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.600 first and best category code, which is battle tested, reliable 290 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:38.120 makes the best use of the language features at the time, 291 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.879 may be hard to improve with modern features. A lot 292 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.240 of Cobol could fall into this category. It may see 293 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.480 our cane, but it's reliable and it uses the platform well. 294 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:49.360 The second category, code is functional and reliable uses conventions 295 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:52.759 which are now considered outdated or harmful. I'm looking at 296 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.519 you go to command. The code doesn't need a change, 297 00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:58.480 but could be improved by taking advantage of new features 298 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:01.720 or conventions. And the final category is code the just 299 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.360 plane sucks. It was bad when it was written, and 300 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.840 it's bad now. We've all written it, so there's no 301 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.039 use of pointing fingers. But it is an ugly baby. 302 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.919 Ugly things like using a cascade of seventeen try catch 303 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:17.120 blocks to handle a value assignment, or these SQL injectable 304 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:21.840 storage procedures because hey, we need dynamic behavior, or checking 305 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.480 if your user is authenticated or not checking if your 306 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.279 user is authenticated anywhere but the log in page letting 307 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.759 anyone who could play yes the URL to have full 308 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.759 of mint access to your web app. If we call 309 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.440 all these things legacy code, as if they all had 310 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:39.200 the same value, it needed to be treated. 311 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:39.679 The same way. 312 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.480 They really don't, and it's important to recognize they need 313 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:44.799 to be treated differently. Be nice to have a term 314 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:47.639 for each of these categories so that we could differentiate them. 315 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:49.919 They really don't, and it's important to recognize that they 316 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:50.919 need to be treated differently. 317 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:51.759 It would be. 318 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:53.639 Nice to have a term for each of these categories 319 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.840 so we could differentiate what should be preserved and what 320 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:58.519 genuinely needs a rewrite. 321 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.759 I consider legacy code any code that nobody on staff 322 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.159 can read and understand. That's fair. 323 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.200 We're no longer compilable. That's a good one. 324 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.480 That's a good one. Yeah, that's pretty good. 325 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:12.240 I don't know that I have much to add to 326 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.840 Roberts's points here, because I think he's completely correct. That's 327 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:16.600 one of the reasons I read it. There really is 328 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:19.279 these different kinds of software, and yeah, it would be 329 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.159 nice if we treated them with especially that old good code, 330 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.159 with more respect. Right, And certainly, you know, we tend 331 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.480 to package up those old reliable apps, like those Cobald 332 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.279 apps in wrappers so that we can call to them 333 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.679 with more modern things. But often that coach does not 334 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:33.639 need to be replaced. 335 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:34.440 It works. 336 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.919 But we've all made some ugly Yeah, we'd all love 337 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:39.840 to go back and clean up the ugly. It's usually, 338 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:43.000 you know, no applications finished, it's just taken away from 339 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.200 you and deployed. M HM, which you could do about that, Robert, 340 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.000 thank you so much for your comment. And a copy 341 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.360 of music co Buy is on its way to you. 342 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:50.799 And if you'd like a copy of music go buy, 343 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:52.919 write a comment on the website at dot net rocks 344 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.960 dot com or on the Facebook and a couple whichever 345 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:56.720 show there and you comment there and I reading the show, 346 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.320 we'll send you copy bees to go buy. 347 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.600 Yeah, music to code by dot net where you can 348 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.039 get that if you don't win it yourself and you 349 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.480 just want to buy it. We have the entire twenty 350 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:10.039 two track collection in MP, three wave and FLACK versions. 351 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:14.160 All right, So I guess it's time to introduce Damien. 352 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.599 His bio has changed a little bit since the last 353 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.680 time he's been on the show. Damian Brady is a developer, 354 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:25.920 speaker and author specializing in DevOps, mL OPS, developer process 355 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.480 and software architecture. He's a senior manager and the Developer 356 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:34.759 advocac team at GitHub based in Brisbane, Australia. Formerly a 357 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:38.039 cloud advocate, at Microsoft for four years and prior to 358 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.880 that a dev at Octopus Deploy and a Microsoft MVP. 359 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.880 Damien has over twenty years in software development and consulting 360 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.960 in a broad range of industries. In Australia. He co 361 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:54.799 organized the Brisbane dot Net User Group and launched the 362 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.000 annual DDD Brisbane Conference. Welcome back, Damien. 363 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:00.880 Thanks really good to be back. 364 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.400 I think we've interviewed you in every one of your jobs. 365 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:05.400 I'm sure we did a show when you were with 366 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:06.480 Octavis Deploy. 367 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:08.240 Definitely, yeah, yeah. 368 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.839 And definitely when at Microsoft and our GitHub, although as 369 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:13.400 I understand it now, the line between Microsoft and GitHub 370 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.720 is very almost not existent these days, isn't it. 371 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.319 Look it depends which part of GitHub and Microsoft you're in. 372 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.720 But yes, yeah, exactly right. Yeah, there's some very interesting 373 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.759 reporting chains going on at Microsoft and get ub at 374 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:32.599 the moment. But the short version is that we're much 375 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.240 closer than we used to be. So there's people on 376 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.519 my team, like right next to me on my team 377 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.279 who work for Microsoft and have the same manager as me, 378 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.759 even though I'm employed by GitHub. So there's a lot 379 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.920 of that kind of thing happening. Means that you know 380 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.200 the stuff we're developing, particularly you know, co Pilot and 381 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.880 all the dev tools. You know, we're working on them together. 382 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.599 I guess sounds like our friend Martin Woodward has got 383 00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:58.519 a big, fat promotion. 384 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:04.240 He is a VP of Devrell and very recently that 385 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:09.559 includes a huge number of developer advocates or like your 386 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:12.920 old job. Yeah, yeah, exactly, so half of the Microsoft 387 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:14.799 Deverell team kind of reports up through him. 388 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:16.960 Now, I've always been a big fan of Martin wood 389 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.279 where I'm glad he's doing well. 390 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:19.279 Me too, he is. 391 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:23.079 I saw him just before NDC London that were we 392 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:24.960 were both at Richard the other day. 393 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:26.880 Yeah, you were really keyn order for that show. 394 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:29.640 As I recall, I was, yeah, that was fun. 395 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.119 I like the way Martin says bogs and to fix 396 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:33.720 the bugs. 397 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.079 I think I think the faith is naughty. I think 398 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:46.759 we get to say naughty a lot, those naughty bogs right, love. 399 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:47.279 Me and Irish Ac. 400 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.680 So what are you thinking about these days in terms 401 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.920