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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: Stop it. It was stop it in a name or

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a word.

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Speaker 4: Stop it?

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Speaker 5: And then I heard the and then the and that

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went on for like maybe ten to fifteen seconds. It

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was weird. It definitely caught my attention and after that

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was silent.

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Speaker 1: All right, bozos, I'm back. That's my new word. I'm

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adopting it. This is episode three hundred and seven Jesus Christ,

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How many amiss to be? Need of Sword and Scale

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show that reveals that the worst monsters are real? Let's

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jazzer size. It was just starting to get warm again

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in Cedar Creek, Indiana, with the April weather bringing sunny days.

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Spring was in full effect. Near Cedar Creek. Andy Hicks

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and his wife Margaret were out hunting for scrap metal.

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They like to look for a scrap metal to sell

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to local recyclers for a few extra bucks. That day,

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Andy and his wife were going to a spot they'd

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been to before that only locals knew about. A narrow

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dirt path led to a hidden dump site con sealed

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by dense vegetation. Indy and his wife stopped the car,

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got out and waded through the tall grass to the

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dump site. The site was down a slight embankment, obscured

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from the view of the road. Just like any other time.

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They started sifting through the rubbish looking for the glint

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of metal, but this time they would find so much more.

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Speaker 6: We see. I found the jaw bone first, okay. I

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found her jaw bone, picked it up, was looking at it,

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realized what it was. I hung it in a little

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tree right here next to where we found it. Okay.

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And then when we went and called the police, they

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transferred us to the DNR and d asked me, well,

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what makes you for sure it's a human jew bone?

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Mass said nobody else. You never kind of anile bond

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there is. And this escape, just like mine, had got

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all the vampede.

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Speaker 1: A chill ran down Andy's back when he found a

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human jawbone amongst the scattered trash. He was partially in disbelief,

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but decided to hang it on the branch of a

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tree to mark the location where he found it so

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it could be spotted later. He called the police, but

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they didn't seem to believe him. I mean, there's a

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lot of gullible people out there listening to true crime podcasts,

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so a lot of false reports come in all the time.

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The dispatcher transferred Andy to the DNR or Department of

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Natural Resources. They were basically game ardens, wilderness cops, not

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criminal investigators.

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Speaker 6: Well, he's going to take a picture of it, and

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then that police down here, and my wife was tooken

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around and was found this plastic bag spoke to a

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stick and a toward open on the front, and the

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reserves go on her hair.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to take a picture of the job bone

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and send it to the police so that they would

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believe them that it wasn't just an animal bone, but

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they stumbled upon something unmistakably human.

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Speaker 6: The skull was in a grocery bag, brown plastic grocery bag.

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Speaker 1: Andy, his wife and the police were now convinced they

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had found human remains.

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Speaker 6: To see where it was laying, I mean the way

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it was, you know, it looked like somebody had just

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put a bag over her head and got wrapped up

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covered with trash.

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Speaker 1: The remains were only bones, a little hare and tattered

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clothing all but gone. It was obvious to Andy that

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these bones had been placed.

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Speaker 6: There there somebody placed here there about six feet from

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the road and covered up with flush trash.

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Speaker 1: The remains were only six feet from the road and

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close to two houses, but the area was heavily wooded

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and the site was down an embankment. There was no

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way the remains could have been spotted unless you were

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right on top of them. The state of the remains

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suggested that the bones had been there for quite a

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wik while, but they weren't buried. They were just kind

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of covered in trash. Authorities would later wonder if the

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remains were simply washed from one location to another by

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the waters of a nearby creek, but Andy knew.

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Speaker 6: Better it was deliberately done because that water, I mean,

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you know it that water's been that high, but it's

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been ten years since that water has been that high.

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I mean that there's no way that water gets that high,

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and it would have put her there.

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Speaker 1: Andy was shocked by both what he found and the

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amount of time it took police to arrive. Even with

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the report of a human skull, it took authorities over

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three hours to get there.

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Speaker 6: When the coups got there, they just you know, their

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day arm accounts everybody when they got there, they just

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looked over the back. I showed him where it was

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at and they said, yeah, it sure looks like it's

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Then they called the corner a corner gunbounder and took

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everything out.

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Speaker 1: The remains were wrapped in black plastic sheeting except for

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the head, which was in a grocery bag. The bones

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showed signs of animal disturbance and were incomplete. Small bones

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like fingers were likely carried off by animals. With the

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remains verified as human, the Indiana State Police took over

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the investigation. Troopers reviewed missing persons cases and found similarities

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between the remains and a woman who went missing in Fairfield, Ohio,

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nearly two years earlier, twenty one year old Caitlin Markham.

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Caitlin had a distinctive crooked canine tooth and a molar

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with a crown. The coroner would estimate the time of

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death as the second or third week of August twenty eleven,

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but could not determine the cause of death because of decomposition.

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They did find three cuts on the left wristbone, indicating

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a possible attempt at dismemberment. The discovery of Caitlin's remains

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thirty six miles from her last known location across state

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lines turned her missing person's case into a homicide investigation.

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One year and eight months earlier, Caitlyn and her fiancee,

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John Carter, were preparing for the next stage of their lives.

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Caitlyn was on the verge of graduating from the Art

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Institute of Cincinnati with a degree in graphic design, and

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they were planning to move away from Fairfield to Colorado.

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But on August twelfth, twenty eleven, in the midst of exams,

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Caitlyn just needed to relax a bit. She and John

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went to the Sacred Heart Festival, an annual festival held

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by the Catholic Church nearby. For a moment they were carefree,

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unaware of the tragedy that lay ahead.

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Speaker 7: I remember that we went to the festival, and I

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remember that we sat and ate, and I vaguely remember

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going and sitting at the hill.

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Speaker 1: Festivals were special places for Caitlin and John when they

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started dating in high school. Going to the local fairs

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and festivals was a regular date night. On this night,

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John wanted to buy raffle tickets for a chance to

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win ten thousand dollars.

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Speaker 7: That was like one of the first places we really

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started hanging out was at the fair.

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Speaker 4: This is around the time that.

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Speaker 7: We started hanging out, and you know, so we just

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we always went there.

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn and John enjoyed the sights and sounds of the festival.

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They listened to some music and ate some horribly bad

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for you fried food. I like me a nice roasted

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corn on the cob. How about you? Not a big

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elephant ear guy, but I do enjoy one on occasion.

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But a storm was brewing on the horizon and they

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walked back to Caitlyn's house well before the end of

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the festival.

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Speaker 8: At midnight.

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Speaker 1: The following night, August thirteenth, Caitlyn was hard at work

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on her final John invited a friend over, Lea von Bargain,

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to discuss putting a trailer hitch on his car for

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their upcoming move to Colorado.

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Speaker 8: I mean, like, I used to be a mechanic. I

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get people hitting me.

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Speaker 1: Up with car questions all the time, and it was

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actually about.

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Speaker 9: Putting a hitch to his car, and you know, so,

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like I ended up calling him like, wait, what.

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Speaker 8: Are you trying to do? What are you towing?

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Speaker 9: And he's like, well, I'm trying to get like a

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U haul to attach to my car, because here's the

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big news.

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Speaker 8: We're thinking about moving to Colorado.

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Speaker 1: Bradley had known Caitlin for years, but only knew John

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through her. They had all been friends, hanging out occasionally,

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but work in life had caused Bradley to lose touch,

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so when John invited him over to catch up, Bradley

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went right after work.

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Speaker 10: We ended up talking more about them going to Colorado

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than anything.

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Speaker 11: John made the comment about, like, you know, pushing his

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comfort zone.

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Speaker 8: He even said, like, well, how you guys gonna plan it?

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Speaker 4: Do you have any place in mind?

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Speaker 1: He's like, and his response was weird, joking and laughingly.

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Speaker 4: He said, it's like I really like to just wing it.

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Speaker 8: And I said this.

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Speaker 1: I was like, dude, that's funny because that's how I

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would probably handle this situation.

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Speaker 8: No planning, just go for it.

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Speaker 12: And he's like, but Caitlyn, on the other hand, likes

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to have everything planned out.

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Speaker 8: This is where it's going, this is where we'll be.

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Speaker 1: The three talked for over an hour about life and

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about moving to Colorado, but Bradley noticed Caitlyn was being

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a little distant. She wasn't her bubbly usual self, you know.

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John explained that she was working on a school project,

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but it still seemed odd to Bradley. After a while,

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he announced that he was leaving, and I'm like, I.

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Speaker 5: Even have to say bye to Caitlyn's It's like almost

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like she didn't even.

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Speaker 7: Say bye to me, like I had to almost initiate

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any interaction with her.

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Speaker 1: By walked outside and got into his car, but couldn't

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shake Caitlyn's odd behavior.

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Speaker 9: What was going on that was just weird, That just

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wasn't like her, just out of the norm.

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Speaker 1: John stayed for another hour before getting bored and leaving

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for a party. He said good night to Caitlyn and

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turned to leave. On the way out, he offered to

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take a bag of her old financial documents and destroy them.

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She'd been keeping it next to the door to remind herself.

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She thanked him and he left.

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Speaker 13: She knew that I was going to go to Jake's

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because I had talked to Joey a little bit beforehand,

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I think, I think at some point and then I

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had called Joey again and said, hey, what are you doing.

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Speaker 4: He's like, I'm at Jake. So it's like, okay, I'll meet.

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Speaker 1: You over there, John left Caitlin's town home and drove

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to his friend's house, which was not far away. There,

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he met several of his friends around a backyard fire.

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They dumped the bag of documents in the fire and

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texted Caitlin that the job was done. But after being

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at the party for a while, well, John wasn't really

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enjoying himself.

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Speaker 7: And someone who's like, why aren't you talking as much

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as you usually do?

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Speaker 8: It's like, I don't know.

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Speaker 13: I get I'm hungry, So I tried to get food

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and then I stayed for a little longer after I ate,

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and I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go home.

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Speaker 1: John went to his parents' house where he lived, grabbed

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a bite to eat, and went to his room to

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watch a couple of episodes of his favorite TV show,

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White Collar. Never heard of that one sounds stupid. He

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texted Caitlyn good morning at four am before he went

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to sleep. The next day, he woke up around noon

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and let his dog out and started getting ready for

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a shift at Papa John's. He didn't even notice that

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Caitlyn hadn't responded to his four am text until he

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got to work. Then he texted her again, but still

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didn't get a response.

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Speaker 13: After like the second message, I started feeling like, oh no,

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and then on top of the etc. And it's like

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making me shake, and I'm like, oh god, you know,

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and it just really freaked me out.

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Speaker 1: John was immediately worried. He asked the shift supervisor to

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let him check on her. John delivered a couple of

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pizzas on the way, and when he got to her apartment,

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he saw something that made his stomach sink. Her car

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in the parking lot.

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Speaker 13: If she's not responding, she's at work. And if she's

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at work, then her car's not there. I walked in,

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and you know, I just assumed she'd be upstairs. So

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I walked in and I ran upstairs. And then as

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soon as I realized she wasn't there, I was like,

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maybe she's somewhere else in the house. So I'm just

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screaming to find out if she's somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: He checked every room. Caitlin was nowhere to be found.

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Her dog, Murphy was locked in her bedroom, which was

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odd because Caitlyn always put him in the downstairs bathroom

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when she left.

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Speaker 14: Your emergency.

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Speaker 15: All right, my name is John Carter. I am calling

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I know that you're not supposed to her missing first

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before twenty four hours, but my fiance is missing. I

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can't find her anywhere. I'm just I'm really nervous. Her

254
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car is still there now, yeah, fourteen door Shire Drive

255
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like he'd been trying to get a hold of her,

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and I decided to go by her house to see

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she was okay, and her car was still there. She

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would be at work right now with her car, which

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is why I'm like really freaking out where when she does?

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Meant midnight last night when she was at her house,

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she was going to bed. And I've been with her

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for six years. She's not deceiving. You know, she doesn't.

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Speaker 16: Okay, And you guys didn't have an argument or anything.

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Speaker 15: Not at all. The only thing that's not there is

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her cell phone, which is positive, but she's not answering it.

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So and then say her heart Festival is going on

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right up the street, and there's a lot of questionable

268
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people there and it's just kind of I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: John Carter called nine one, his voice shaky and worried.

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Caitlyn was missing, but everything else, her purse, wallet, her car, keys, laptop,

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even her dog was still there. It was like she

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had just disappeared without a trace, leaving her life hanging.

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That nine one one call kicked off an investigation, but

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it didn't lead to any answers. Days turned into weeks,

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and weeks dragged on into months. Eventually the case went cold.

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By the time Andy Hicks and his wife found a

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skull on an Indiana dump site, Caitlyn had been missing

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for almost two years, and even then the real story

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was still buried. There wasn't until twelve years later that

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investigators finally figured out what happened to Caitlin Marcom, twelve

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00:15:55,399 --> 00:16:00,399
long years before they caught up with the guy expected

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00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:32,919
had been hiding in plain sight all along. Almost two

283
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,200
years after she disappeared without a trace, Caitlin Markham's skeletonized

284
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remains were found thirty six miles away across state lines

285
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in Indiana. Her bones were found under some trash and

286
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an illegal dump site in a rural part of the state.

287
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The local authorities didn't seem to take it all too

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seriously until the remains were identified as Caitlin's. Then the

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Indiana State Police or isp I know a lot of

290
00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:05,319
these places in Indiana have acronyms that are actually something

291
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,319
else for everyone else, like ISP DNR, but in this

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case ISP means Indiana State Police, not Internet service provider.

293
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The ISP took over and cooperated with the Fairfield PD.

294
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While the case had seemingly stalled, the Fairfield PD had

295
00:17:24,039 --> 00:17:28,400
never stopped investigating. Regardless, they hadn't really gotten anywhere. So

296
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the ISP started at the very beginning and got to

297
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know who Caitlin really was. Twenty one years before she

298
00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:42,079
went missing, Caitlin's parents, David and Sherry, were desperately trying

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to have a baby.

300
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Speaker 8: Caitlin not biological correct an adoptor.

301
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,519
Speaker 9: Aptor or a private adoption. It was actually Sherry's cousin.

302
00:17:52,839 --> 00:17:57,079
Speaker 8: Okay, so was the sound pre arranged before or yah?

303
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 9: She got pregnant okay and was going to give the

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child up for adoption.

305
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:02,039
Speaker 8: Okay.

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00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:02,920
Speaker 4: She hit it from her.

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Speaker 9: Parents and so it really happened pretty fast, right, We've

308
00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:08,480
been trying to have kids with no luck, and then

309
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when we found out that she was pregnant, she was

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not going to terminate the baby. So I guess her

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00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:20,640
mom suggested that the Kaitlin's biological grandmother suggested.

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Speaker 8: It working out pretty good? Worked out pretty good.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Caitlin's biological mother was Sherry's cousin, but she was

315
00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:32,880
very young, too young to raise a baby, so Sherry

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and David adopted Caitlin and finally had a child of

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their own. The Markhams loved their new baby girl and

318
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,440
fostered all her interests, but the happiness the family shared.

319
00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:46,480
Would she can spoil.

320
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 8: What happened between you and Sherry?

321
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Speaker 16: What would?

322
00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: What?

323
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,079
Speaker 7: Would you blame the the failure of the Mary John?

324
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Speaker 8: Can I be blunt sure?

325
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Speaker 9: She is a lazy piece of shit and we're all, Yeah,

326
00:18:58,839 --> 00:19:02,799
she stopped doing everything. I mean just stayed in bed

327
00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:07,880
and shop QVC. Really yeah, didn't do shit. So I

328
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,279
was doing everything. I was doing everything for the kids.

329
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,519
That Actually, Kaitlin was the one that prompted me to

330
00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:18,440
move out. She one day when she was sixteen, she said,

331
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,519
why do you put up with this ship?

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00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:19,839
Speaker 17: Dad?

333
00:19:20,319 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 9: It's because of you and the girls. She goes, I'm

334
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,279
going with you. So she moved out with me, and

335
00:19:27,319 --> 00:19:29,400
about three months later Ali moved in with me. Ali

336
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,039
lived with me for the most for the most part, okay.

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Speaker 1: At sixteen, she saw her parents' marriage fall apart. She

338
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:40,480
blamed her mother and grew closer to her father. During

339
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these formative years, her unique personality started to show. She

340
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,839
became an outspoken, audacious teen with her own opinions in

341
00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:53,160
her own style. That's when she met John Carter.

342
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Speaker 17: Back then, they were two peas in a pod. They

343
00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:03,000
were both very gothic, 're very hippie. They were very grungy,

344
00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:07,519
and they're very loud and house spoken, and that's what

345
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,480
drew them together. When I met and I'm like, of course,

346
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:14,519
they're perfect for each other. They were best friends.

347
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Speaker 1: Like Summer her age, she chose to express herself by

348
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,000
bucking social norms. She wore dark eyeliner like goth kids,

349
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and layered mismatched clothing like grunge kids. She dyed her

350
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hair all sorts of colors. When she met John, they

351
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,960
just clicked. They had that similar alternative bohemian thing going on,

352
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and they'd been together ever since. They dated all through

353
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high school and after graduation, Caitlin pursued a degree in

354
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art and enrolled in the Art Institute of Ohio. Getting

355
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a degree and pursuing a career in art was her

356
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:52,480
main focus, but somehow she juggled all that with two

357
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,559
part time jobs. She got one job at the campus bookstore,

358
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where she earned the trust of her manager.

359
00:20:59,839 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 8: Was excellent.

360
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 4: I mean, she was just one of the best stum

361
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,079
works I've ever had. She would do anything for you.

362
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Speaker 18: She could run that store by herself, and that's why

363
00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:11,079
I loved having her there, because I could trust her

364
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and that she would take care of any issues that

365
00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:15,640
would come up, and she could open.

366
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Speaker 4: The store and close the store.

367
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Speaker 8: I had total trusting her.

368
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 1: She got another job at David's Bridal, where she made

369
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,400
an impression on all of her coworkers.

370
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Speaker 19: People ask me all the time, like, was Kaitlyn weird?

371
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Speaker 4: You know, before Caitlyn was.

372
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Speaker 5: A weird individual, as that's her personality. She was bubby,

373
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she liked colored hair. She wore a yellow velvet soup

374
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,279
jacket with red pants. I mean, the girl she loved

375
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:40,279
her personality.

376
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Speaker 20: Whiles I got to know her, I really wanted to

377
00:21:43,839 --> 00:21:47,200
be her friend because she was at that time, like one.

378
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Speaker 5: Of the coolest people I think I'd ever met.

379
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Speaker 2: And she was just like effortlessly cool, and she was

380
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,480
like kind of artistic, and she was funny, and like

381
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,160
I wanted to be her friend.

382
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Speaker 1: Caitlyn made friends with everyone everywhere she went at David's bridal.

383
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,759
Even the older women were impressed with her talent and ambition,

384
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and she appreciated their experienced guidance.

385
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,319
Speaker 8: She was really.

386
00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 5: Focused on getting her art career.

387
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:14,799
Speaker 19: She wasn't sure she wanted to be a full time

388
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,160
artist versus teaching art, or what exactly she was going

389
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,759
to focus on in art, so we talked about that

390
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,400
a lot because she was excited about art was her focus,

391
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,799
for art was her whole life.

392
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Speaker 1: She worked two part time jobs while going to school.

393
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,799
It was hard, but she did it and got an

394
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:40,400
associate's degree. By this time, her father had a new

395
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,799
girlfriend and was rarely at the condo that they shared.

396
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,359
Caitlin was starting to get a feeling for what it

397
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,119
was like to be on her own. Her talent and

398
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,079
drive landed her a prestigious internship at Art Beyond Boundaries,

399
00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:58,640
an art gallery in Cincinnati, and on her twenty first birthday,

400
00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:04,279
John proposed and she said yes. They started planning the

401
00:23:04,319 --> 00:23:07,839
rest of their lives together. After graduation, they would move

402
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,160
to Colorado for a change of pace and a chance

403
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,319
to spread their wings and grow. But just weeks before

404
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,880
graduation and two days before her twenty second birthday, she vanished.

405
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,759
Her last known communication with John was at eleven thirty

406
00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:29,279
six pm, shortly after midnight, her phone went dark. It

407
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,640
was as if she had just walked away from her life,

408
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,839
but that was so unlikely with everything she had to

409
00:23:36,839 --> 00:23:41,359
look forward to just didn't make sense. Through the investigation,

410
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,039
a suspect came to light. Megan Gordon, a friend and

411
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,759
somewhat mentor of Caitlyn, shared some advice with her. They

412
00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:52,680
were in school together, but Megan was older and had

413
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,960
more life experience, so Caitlin often confided in her.

414
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 16: I had get some advice with her and John, but

415
00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:04,759
there was a kid that she had an express to

416
00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:08,319
me that had had some interest in her, and the

417
00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:10,160
way that she had described it to me, it was

418
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:16,000
a sexual interest, and I I advised her to stay

419
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,119
far away from this kid. I told her, you know,

420
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,240
just you need to cut him off completely. Caught him

421
00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:25,920
off completely. I was definitely concerned for her because his

422
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,039
interest in her was inappropriate and it was definitely she

423
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,920
felt uncomfortable. I remember her telling me she didn't know

424
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,000
what to do, so she felt uncomfortable, but she didn't

425
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,960
want hurt anybody's feelings.

426
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: Caitlyn tried to tell him she wasn't interested, but not

427
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,240
wanting to hurt his feelings, she tried to let him

428
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:46,000
down gently. Unfortunately, this was the kind of guy that

429
00:24:46,039 --> 00:24:49,799
didn't take the hint. The kid's name was Christopher Ball.

430
00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:53,480
He immediately rose to the top of the suspect list

431
00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:57,759
because well he was a registered sex offender. Because he

432
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:01,440
couldn't provide an exact alibi, they searched his electronics and

433
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,359
gave him a CVSA. I know that one was close too,

434
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,160
but that one stands for Computer Voice stress Analysis test.

435
00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:13,720
A CVSA measures subtle changes in a person's voice to

436
00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:19,400
detect deception. It's a by detector test. Chris Ball had

437
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,079
little to no contact with Caitlin since high school other

438
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,720
than a few Facebook interactions, and he passed the test.

439
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,160
Then another suspect emerged, a man who used to live

440
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,720
near Caitlin as recently as a month and a half

441
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:38,240
before her disappearance and was arrested for an unrelated sexual battery.

442
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,240
His proximity and criminal record made him suspicious, but his

443
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:46,799
phone records and work schedule didn't place him anywhere near

444
00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:50,319
her that night. Of course, the Fairfield PD also looked

445
00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:53,799
into Bradley Vaughan bargin because he was one of the

446
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,400
last people to see her, but his alibi checked out.

447
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,799
It looked into John Carter two, as he was actually

448
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:03,200
the last one to see her. By his own admission,

449
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,920
his alibi was pretty tight, but there were some brief

450
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,039
periods of time that no one could corroborate. Not to mention,

451
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,519
he had suspicious scratches on his neck that he blamed

452
00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:18,759
on his electric razor, so they gave him a CVSA test. Also,

453
00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:21,160
you know, for shits and giggles, we.

454
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,319
Speaker 10: Have something that's called a tendency. You have a tendency

455
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,599
to block on particular questions.

456
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:29,319
Speaker 8: Okay, this is scarious, fond, I'm sure, Well.

457
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,839
Speaker 10: This one is is today Monday? You said yes, but

458
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,599
you had a tendency to block on it. For me,

459
00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:38,599
the reason that you would have a tendency to block

460
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,240
on that question is because you're nervous.

461
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 4: It's as simple as that.

462
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 10: We get into question number four, when it gets to

463
00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:48,920
the pertinent questions about knowing the whereabouts, you have a

464
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,839
tendency to block on this one too. Okay, Now if

465
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,200
we go to chart number two, which chart two is

466
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,839
the only one we use, Okay, okay, I'll show you.

467
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 8: What's your name?

468
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: John?

469
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 10: Yes, this color of the door brown? He said, no,

470
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,799
it actually gave me a truthful reading.

471
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 8: Okay.

472
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: The way these tests work is they'll ask you a

473
00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:19,680
series of questions and some of the questions are control questions.

474
00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:26,200
They're obviously true, and others are purposely false. This sets

475
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,480
a baseline for what truth and lies look like per individual.

476
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,880
John was all over the place. He was showing signs

477
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,920
of deception on obviously true questions like is today Monday?

478
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,359
And he was reading true on obvious lies like is

479
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:45,240
the door brown?

480
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,039
Speaker 10: I get to the pertinent question again, do you have

481
00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:51,440
any information pret pretending to the whereabouts?

482
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,039
Speaker 8: No? But I have a tendency here.

483
00:27:55,799 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 10: Okay, did you cause a disappearance of Caitlin Markham? You

484
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,880
put no, and it showed a truthful response here. But

485
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,240
when we get to number seven, are we in the

486
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:09,160
city of Fairfield?

487
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:10,039
Speaker 4: You say yes?

488
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 8: You block hard on this.

489
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,799
Speaker 10: I want you to know that these charts have determined

490
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:21,559
that their deception in your answers.

491
00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 8: Okay.

492
00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: John was at a loss. He assured them that he

493
00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:29,559
would do anything they wanted if it would lead to Caitlyn,

494
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,480
but he couldn't explain his failure on the test. He

495
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:35,640
maintained he was telling the truth.

496
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,599
Speaker 7: When you said disappearance, like it really freaks me out.

497
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,359
I just I'm just really scared. I'm genuinely scared.

498
00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 8: And what are you scared of right now?

499
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 7: Not getting Caitlyn back?

500
00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: Okay, And I don't.

501
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 21: I don't know why it's inconclusive, Okay, I'm more than

502
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,440
willing to do anything else proof that I'm not involved

503
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,079
in her disappearance and good.

504
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: The police were at a loss also, they knew the

505
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,000
statistics something like thirty four percent of murdered women are

506
00:29:13,079 --> 00:29:18,200
killed by an intimate partner. It ain't rocket science. John

507
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:22,599
was very cooperative, though, and they had no evidence directly

508
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:28,160
tying him to well anything. They actually didn't have any

509
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,720
physical evidence set all. While they were suspicious of John,

510
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,119
they couldn't prove he did anything, But they also couldn't

511
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,720
rule him out, so they just kept investigating. One real

512
00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:43,319
lead came months later in twenty twelve, when allegations of

513
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:48,039
sexual harassment were made against David Clemens, Caitlin's boss at

514
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,599
the campus bookstore. One of his young female employees claimed

515
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,319
he made inappropriate comments to her, calling her high heeled

516
00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:00,880
shoes fuck me, Boots. Can't say stuff like that at work, obviously,

517
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,359
you'll get me tooed immediately. Anyway, the claims went beyond that.

518
00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:10,119
She also claimed that he pulled her onto his lap

519
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,839
and hugged her and asked her to bring alcohol to work,

520
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:18,119
and when she refused, he became angry. According to her, so.

521
00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:21,799
Speaker 4: You know, why don't you know that you're on a

522
00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:24,759
mester ave lead right now? Yes, okay, and I understand,

523
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:27,000
I know, and I know why that you're on aster

524
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:32,359
league with that. When you think about that, it's completely false. Okay,

525
00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:35,000
what's the mo here? I mean, why do you think

526
00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:36,279
she You know?

527
00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:37,359
Speaker 8: I thought about it over and over.

528
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 22: The only thing I can think of is when I

529
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,039
reprimanded her the last day she worked.

530
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: David acted innocent, but they weren't there to talk about

531
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,640
the sexual allegations against him. They were there to talk

532
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,359
about Caitlyn. Among her things, detectives found a handwritten letter

533
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,640
from Caitlyn to someone named Dave.

534
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,359
Speaker 23: This was a letter that was a Calen's house.

535
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: The letter reads, in part, Dear Dave, I don't really

536
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:11,200
know how to tell you this, but I'm selling myself

537
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,640
for Candy. I think I realized it when you smacked

538
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,559
my butt at the Elton John concert and I saw

539
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:21,359
you sit on your my Little Pony collection. I'm sure

540
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:24,119
you're middle class enough to understand that I get turned

541
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,799
on by garbage men. I'm returning your Hannah Montana underwear

542
00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:31,480
to you, but I'll keep the results of that blood

543
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,160
sample as a memory. You make me sick. Caitlin Markham.

544
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,000
Maybe I'm not the investigator I think I am, But

545
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,640
I have no idea what any of that means.

546
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 4: I have no idea what acting from.

547
00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 18: Well, we're just we're just curious. It's obviously dressed today,

548
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:56,680
Yeah there is. We're trying to figure that out ourselves.

549
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,920
I mean, that's obviously.

550
00:31:58,359 --> 00:32:02,759
Speaker 4: That's definitely not me. That's completely baffling to me. Fee

551
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:03,240
less with it.

552
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:07,759
Speaker 1: It reads like mad lips. As odd as the letter was,

553
00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:12,039
it wasn't enough to connect David to Caitlin's disappearance. They

554
00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:14,759
asked Dave to take a CVSA test, in other words,

555
00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:19,559
a light detector test, and he hesitantly agreed, only to

556
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,480
later change his mind. His alibi checked out, though he

557
00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:25,400
was at dinner with his wife and his in laws,

558
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,400
so he was crossed off the list. During that time,

559
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:37,079
Caitlyn's family and communities searched high and low. Authorities used dogs, drones, helicopters,

560
00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:41,839
and volunteers to scour the surrounding rivers, creeks, wooded areas,

561
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,599
and even sewers to find Caitlin, but there was no

562
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,599
sign of her. The investigation would go on for one

563
00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:52,079
year and eight months with no substantial developments until her

564
00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:56,839
remains were found at the dump site. When the ISP

565
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,920
or Indiana State Police, took over the investigation, they almost

566
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,599
immediately bungled the case. It took hours for them to

567
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,599
arrive at the dump site. First of all, they did

568
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,920
little to know forensics, instead opting to come back a

569
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,960
couple days later, and they didn't really do a very

570
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,240
good job. Days later, mourners visiting the site found more

571
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,480
of Caitlyn's remains. They discovered her complete hip bone. The

572
00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:26,759
dump site itself held no real clues, and there was

573
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:31,160
certainly no DNA evidence on the sun bleached bones. One

574
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,960
potential clue was the dumpsite's location. John Carter's father owned

575
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,599
property in Indiana. It was fifty acres of woods with

576
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,200
a pond, a cave, and a waterfall from Fairfield. There

577
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,880
were only two routes to this property. Caitlin's remains were

578
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,559
found almost exactly midway on one of those routes. Suddenly,

579
00:33:56,319 --> 00:33:59,279
the ISP's only focus became John Carter.

580
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:05,559
Speaker 24: I think that that you apparently had been questioned early

581
00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:10,840
on by the police and at one point in time,

582
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,400
is my understanding that there was a reason to believe

583
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,320
that you were being dishonest about something, and he's not.

584
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 8: I'm not. I'm not being evasive.

585
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 5: I'm just saying something.

586
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 7: I mean, I know that I've taken multiple light detector tests,

587
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,400
and i know that I've been accused of being dishonest,

588
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:38,280
and I know that somebody thinks that I have some

589
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,239
sort of something that I'm hiding, But I promise you

590
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:41,840
that I'm not.

591
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 4: I'm not hiding anything.

592
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: This interview took place in August twenty thirteen, four months

593
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,079
after Caitlin's remains were found. At this point, John had

594
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:55,639
been interviewed by the police at least four times, and

595
00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:01,400
he had taken two CVSA tests and FBI administered old

596
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,360
school polygraph test. He failed them all.

597
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 7: I'm going to be completely upfront with you.

598
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 8: They're bullshit.

599
00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 7: And the reason why I believe that they're bullshit is

600
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,639
because they kept telling me that I was being dishonest,

601
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,519
and I sat there and told them the truth. This

602
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,320
is the truth, and that thing does not tell you

603
00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:23,480
what the truth is.

604
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: John did not want to take another live detector test,

605
00:35:27,159 --> 00:35:31,239
but the ISP still had some questions. In his original interview,

606
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,320
John said he sent Caitlin a good morning text at

607
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,239
four am before he went to bed, but when they

608
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,719
checked the phone history, there was no record of this text.

609
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,599
Speaker 7: But I distinctly remember, at the very least typing this message,

610
00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:51,239
and I'm pretty positive that I push send. I don't

611
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,239
know how that what that is all about.

612
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: But this wasn't the only unusual thing about John's text messages.

613
00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:02,599
He also selected deleted some text between him and Caitlin,

614
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,960
explaining that he'd done so by mistake. They didn't press

615
00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:10,360
much harder because they wanted to focus on John's family property.

616
00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 7: I don't know how she got there, don't. I don't

617
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,960
speculate how she got there, because I don't. I try

618
00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:21,159
not to think about that shit. I try not to

619
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:23,599
put those images.

620
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:23,599
Speaker 8: In my head.

621
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:28,599
Speaker 7: I have no idea what she went through, and I

622
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:31,320
don't want to imagine what she went through.

623
00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 8: Are you familiar with the area where they found her.

624
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,159
Speaker 7: My dad has property in Laurel, which you can take

625
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,440
because I know that it's on one twenty nine or

626
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:41,920
off one.

627
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,559
Speaker 8: Nine or one twenty one, one twenty one.

628
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:47,559
Speaker 7: Yeah, and my dad would go that way occasionally, but usually,

629
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,519
you know, because he lives in Ross, he takes a

630
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:51,039
totally different way.

631
00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:54,039
Speaker 1: He said he rarely went to his father's property, and

632
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,199
when he did, he used landmarks to navigate. He was

633
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,000
familiar with the route, but claimed he isn't familiar enough

634
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,199
to pick out the spot where Caitlin's remains were found.

635
00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:07,639
Because he refused to take another lie detector test, they

636
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,000
couldn't really be sure if he was telling the truth.

637
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,360
He was free to go, but John made a final

638
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,719
plea before he left.

639
00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:21,599
Speaker 7: Look into the festival because to me, the fact that

640
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:24,840
it was so coincidental that this festival is going on

641
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,360
during this time, there's all these people walking around doing something,

642
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,920
it just to me seems very suspicious.

643
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:38,119
Speaker 1: Detectives would work quietly on this case for the next

644
00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:42,440
six months before coming back to John. This time he

645
00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:44,079
agreed to a polygraph.

646
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 8: You didn't do well, tesh An, underdo you probably do that?

647
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 4: I never do.

648
00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:55,039
Speaker 7: It's just it's so frustrating because I'm sitting here telling

649
00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:57,400
the truth and somebody's telling me that I'm a liar.

650
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:58,559
Speaker 8: This is hell.

651
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 4: Because polygraph didn't clear me. So I'm gonna have to

652
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,519
keep coming back here. I'm gonna have to keep talking

653
00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:07,800
to him all.

654
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:11,039
Speaker 11: The while not going to jail because there's not going

655
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:12,639
to be anything to send me there.

656
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: Once again, John failed the light detector test, but he

657
00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:21,159
was right. They did not have any evidence to arrest him,

658
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:27,920
so the case seemingly stalled. Then in twenty fifteen, David Markham,

659
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,679
fed up with the lack of progress, publicly asked the

660
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,599
Butler County Sheriff's Office to take over.

661
00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:36,599
Speaker 8: Sheriff Jones will take this over.

662
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 9: Will It's a step in the right direction, and there

663
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,360
has been very little movement. We need more help. We

664
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,679
need somebody who's going to take this more serious.

665
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: Ten months after John's fourth failed light detector test, and

666
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,920
over four years after Caitlin went missing, the BCSO became

667
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,519
the third agency to take on the case. But would

668
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:03,360
fresh eyes make a difference in this four year old

669
00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:08,760
cold case. Detectives hope so, and they came out swinging

670
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:12,159
for John. The first call he made after searching her

671
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:15,880
apartment was to her father, and the first words out

672
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,880
of his mouth were Caitlin's missing. They found it odd

673
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,880
that that was his immediate assumption.

674
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,119
Speaker 7: Of course, I'm concerned her dog shit all over her floor.

675
00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:32,480
She would never let that happen. She would never not

676
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,519
answer my phone call. All of these things are insanely

677
00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:37,039
out of.

678
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 8: The ordinary for her.

679
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 18: But it seemed like U I know experience that seems

680
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,960
like you almost know something catastrophic has happened here.

681
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 8: Have you ever had a feeling? I have all kinds

682
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,480
of feeling exactly.

683
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: They pushed John hard, confident that they would get him

684
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:56,800
to crack. They were the third agency to work on

685
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,199
this case, and they had something to prove to the

686
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,440
community and the Markhums.

687
00:40:02,159 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 4: I know, you guys are having a lot of trouble understanding.

688
00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:07,679
You know why I was worried.

689
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,079
Speaker 22: Help us explain this, Joe, explain to me why your

690
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,800
DNA is on the inside of a Kruger's bag that

691
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,559
was wrapped around her skeletal remains.

692
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,559
Speaker 4: I have no idea.

693
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 25: And why your DNA was on a black piece of

694
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:33,320
plastic that her skeletal remains, I have no idea.

695
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 4: That's not made up stuff that I didn't fucking do

696
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,119
that though, But I'm leaving. I'm getting a lawyer, thank you.

697
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: John stormed out, but he came back and explained it away.

698
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,440
Of course, he did evidence in.

699
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 4: A bag and on a piece of plastic.

700
00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 7: Whoever did this could have easily have grabbed a bag

701
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,360
that I had used, or a.

702
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 13: Back that I had held, or have done anything, or

703
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:02,480
I would be being set up.

704
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,079
Speaker 4: But I did not do this.

705
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 7: There are accounts of where I was that night, agrange

706
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,960
to my mother, agrange to my stepfather.

707
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 4: Had according to my stepsister.

708
00:41:13,519 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: They were so confident that he would confess if they

709
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,679
had strong enough evidence, so they made it up. There

710
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,679
were no DNA results. It was all just a ploy

711
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,960
because they just knew he would break at some point.

712
00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:34,000
When John didn't confess, they started back at square one.

713
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,519
Over the next six years, they made a list of

714
00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:40,039
twenty suspects and cleared them all. Then they started to

715
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:44,480
pour over previous interviews by other investigators and found something

716
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:50,039
that they had overlooked. Two kids came forward in twenty thirteen,

717
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:56,360
right after Caitlin's remains were found, with an interesting story.

718
00:41:57,079 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 7: Me and Daron were sneaking out of his house and

719
00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:02,199
two in clo because we heard of a party.

720
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: Darren and Kyle were outside for five minutes when they

721
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,239
thought they were busted.

722
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,519
Speaker 8: Two cars pulled up. We thought they're police, so.

723
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: We hid both teens doe for cover in a nearby bush.

724
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,199
Speaker 12: I had my head peeked around the left side of it,

725
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,800
expecting a Fairfield PD to come around, and the lights

726
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,800
turned off to where we saw the vehicle pull into

727
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,480
the driveway garage or goes up carpools and the other

728
00:42:27,519 --> 00:42:30,960
carpools on the street right next to the driveway garage.

729
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 8: Or goes down.

730
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,559
Speaker 1: They thought they were about to be busted. Instead, they

731
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:38,159
were left wondering what was even happening.

732
00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 8: Darren's dad's gonna wake up mad, blah blah blah.

733
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,079
Speaker 9: But no, it's two suspicious cars with their lights off,

734
00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:47,039
looking like they're sneaking into their own house.

735
00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:50,679
Speaker 1: Five to ten minutes later, the cars pulled up, still

736
00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:53,760
with their headlights off, and left the way they came.

737
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:57,199
This was interesting because Darren lived across the street from

738
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,840
John Carter and saw his red Ford focus that night.

739
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,199
He also saw the driver of the blue car you.

740
00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:09,599
Speaker 12: Know, long hair through his shoulders pulled away and then

741
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,880
just like an unmanicured you know, very messy hair and

742
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,599
then just unmanicured facial hair.

743
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: Okay, that description rang a bell for investigators. One of

744
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,079
John's inner circle back in twenty eleven was a man

745
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:26,280
named John Palmerton who fit the description. It had been

746
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:31,599
eleven years since Caitlyn disappeared, but John Palmerton still had long,

747
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,639
unkempt hair and unmanicured facial hair.

748
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 8: You work at Ricks that weekend, do you recall? Yeah?

749
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 26: Yeah, I couldn't tell you Friday, but I'm not sure

750
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,280
what but Saturday night I did close?

751
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 8: What times you actually leave Rix? Thatnot you remember? I

752
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:51,719
couldn't tell you an exact time.

753
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,039
Speaker 26: I know me and John Monkin at the first I

754
00:43:54,039 --> 00:43:56,719
was close basically since we had nothing to do. We

755
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,880
got done close and went home, showered up, my back up,

756
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,000
and I'm back after Rix hanging out the bartenders and drink.

757
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,639
Speaker 27: Okay, he said, you said you've.

758
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:08,079
Speaker 8: Lived there with John, John Lumpkin.

759
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 4: And l U N p K I N.

760
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: After Jonathan gave his alibi to detectives, they told him

761
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,320
about the two cars witnessed that night at John Carter's house.

762
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 27: And at that point in time, you were driving a

763
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:22,159
blue car.

764
00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 8: You're own a blue dark blue, yeah vehicle.

765
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 27: Does that sound familiar to you?

766
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 4: But that that happened, yeah.

767
00:44:33,519 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 24: Happened.

768
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 8: Out at the bar. I can tell you where it

769
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:39,760
was at.

770
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 26: Sorry if those details that gave you a match me,

771
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,079
but it has nothing to do with me.

772
00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 4: And that's all I can tell you on that.

773
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: He stared blankly at detectives but denied the man in

774
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,039
the blue car was him, And when they asked him

775
00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:59,280
to take a polygraph test, he refused. He said they

776
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,199
weren't accurate. Detectives let him walk and set out to

777
00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:07,320
disprove his alibi. They went to find John Lumpkin, the

778
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,400
man he said he took home that night.

779
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 28: Like I told you before, sir, we also have the

780
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,880
other person, mister Ruffledge. And all I know is this,

781
00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:23,320
if we work together, that's who would have took me home.

782
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 4: Okay, I mean it's very highly unlikely. Okay, with.

783
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,599
Speaker 28: That person, very unlikely.

784
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: John Lumpkin didn't waste any time. He flat out denied

785
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,559
ever being with Jonathan Palmerton that night. Just like that,

786
00:45:40,039 --> 00:45:44,800
Palmerton's alibi fell apart, lying the police. That's a serious

787
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,239
offense on its own, but the real question wasn't why

788
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,840
he lied, it was who he was covering for. Detectives

789
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,239
started to think he was an accomplice, someone who helped

790
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,880
to get rid of Caitlyn's body and hide it. If

791
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,920
Jonathan had lied for twelve years, what else was he

792
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:45,199
keeping a secret. After years of investigation with no developments,

793
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,800
Caitlin's father, David, pleaded with the Sheriff's office to take

794
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,920
over the investigation. When they did another six years past,

795
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,119
but they never stopped working. The case finally took a

796
00:46:57,119 --> 00:47:01,639
turn when they uncovered a previously misstatement for teenagers with

797
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,400
confirmed witness accounts. The police reinterviewed John Carter's close friend,

798
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:13,280
Jonathan Palmerton. He provided an alibi, but detectives disproved it. Finally,

799
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:18,159
after twelve years, they made the first arrest in the case.

800
00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:22,880
They arrested Jonathan for perjury and brought him into uncover

801
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:25,000
what else he might be hiding.

802
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 23: Caitlin went missing, she was murdered. That's the reality of it,

803
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,519
and there's a small group of people that could be

804
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:41,000
responsible for it. He's worked on this case, interviewed all

805
00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:43,760
these people. He tried to give you the benefit of

806
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,639
the doubt and interview. They you said, go talk to

807
00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:50,440
this guy, go cut to this person. He goes to

808
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,320
talk to him. It's just on that night in question,

809
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:54,599
he goes to talk to him.

810
00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 8: I don't remember anything doing that. I wouldn't have done

811
00:47:58,519 --> 00:47:59,400
that with him.

812
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 23: He can't find anybody to back you up. And we're

813
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,920
not talking about some like Pinanty Crame.

814
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 8: We're talking about homici. We're talking about murder.

815
00:48:08,559 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: It wasn't just John Lumpkin who said it never happened.

816
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,519
Other people at the bar that night said they never

817
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:17,679
saw him. Jonathan tried to explain, but the detective stopped

818
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,559
him in a firm voice. He leaned in closer and

819
00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:23,639
told him that if he were covering for John Carter

820
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,320
to just come clean and he wouldn't face any charges.

821
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,599
Speaker 29: Yeah, but if I had anything, why would I lie

822
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:33,239
to save his? Ask is I don't give a shit

823
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,639
about him getting away with something or something compared to

824
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,320
me losing my fucking family.

825
00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 8: Then what happened that night.

826
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,119
Speaker 30: I don't know. That's the thing. I wasn't there. I

827
00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:48,360
didn't help to spread of a body. If I had,

828
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,599
I would take nine minute plea in a fucking second.

829
00:48:50,639 --> 00:48:52,000
I can guarantee you that.

830
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: What Jonathan didn't know was a lot, but also that

831
00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:01,679
search warrants were being served at the very moment they

832
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,760
slapped down something that they found at John's house, something

833
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,440
they thought offered a glimpse into the mind of a murderer.

834
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 4: It was a.

835
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:16,599
Speaker 29: Poem, definitely conflicting, kind of some kind of personality disorder

836
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,119
kind of thing, like someone pushing and pulling with a

837
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,280
darker side of themselves, so to speak.

838
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,039
Speaker 1: The poem reads like someone arguing with themselves deep down,

839
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,320
I love her. You want to kill her, but I

840
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,760
love her. She must die. I can't kill her, Yes

841
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,760
you can, no, Yes, how do you talk me into

842
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,320
all these things? I'm just that good? But you're bad.

843
00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:53,199
I know. How do I kill you? You can't? You're

844
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:59,480
right about what? Nothing. Just then the detective slammed a

845
00:49:59,519 --> 00:50:00,920
photo on the table.

846
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 8: Is that her fucking teeth? Yeah? Oh yeah.

847
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: Jonathan had a visceral reaction. He looked everywhere, but in

848
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:10,639
the direction of that picture.

849
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 8: Deep down, I love her. You want to kill her,

850
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:14,079
but I love her.

851
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 23: I mean, it's not it's not it's not song lyrics, John,

852
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,199
I mean, this is the way she ended up.

853
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:27,559
Speaker 1: His demeanor changed. He wasn't smugly answering questions anymore. Detectives

854
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:30,519
thought he was about to crack, so they laid it

855
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:31,400
on thicker.

856
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:36,039
Speaker 27: I will tell you this on June to twentia Crustion

857
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:43,840
July twentia, twenty eleven, John Carter's mother, Karen Caitlin, what's

858
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,360
a ge credit Union? Okay, yeah, I want to go

859
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,440
in to get a credit card. Because Karen knew that

860
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,599
they were going to do they were going to Colorado.

861
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:57,519
She was going to make sure, being Karen, that Caitlin

862
00:50:57,599 --> 00:51:00,639
and John that end up out there. Fly asked broke.

863
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,800
She goes, and Karen said this, Well, if I co

864
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,159
signed for this credit card, you gotta take my son

865
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:13,280
with you. Okay, Karen laughed. The lady g credit Union laughed.

866
00:51:13,599 --> 00:51:19,239
Guess who didn't laugh? Yeah, Kate, no expression. Let's go

867
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,320
to Let's go to Friday night at the festival. Michelle Feiss.

868
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:24,119
Speaker 8: She goes.

869
00:51:24,199 --> 00:51:26,679
Speaker 27: They were arguing over the over them hem spending money,

870
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,800
being John Carter on money they didn't have, okay, Jeff

871
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,920
Rutlish and I quote it looked like.

872
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 4: They would want to break up.

873
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 23: One day later, she's murdered one day later.

874
00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:43,639
Speaker 27: She's dead that very night, Brad van Bargain, he's sitting

875
00:51:43,639 --> 00:51:48,639
with him. She's always friendly to Van Bargain. They didn't

876
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:51,599
talk Caitlyn. He said there was something wrong with Kaitlyn

877
00:51:51,639 --> 00:51:55,440
that night. She was going places. Sheeff thinks she wanted

878
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,920
to go. Do not sit around and sit around and

879
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,960
smoke weed all damn day and wait for her boyfriend.

880
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 8: They fucking get down the little ring pieces.

881
00:52:02,079 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 23: So if you've been manipulated, if you've been asked to

882
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,679
do something, now's the time.

883
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,199
Speaker 7: As far as I knew, I thought everything was fine

884
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:10,880
between them.

885
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 29: Oh that's why I never suspected he would fucking have

886
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:14,840
done this.

887
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: He had an obvious physical reaction to seeing the photos

888
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,440
of Caitlin's remains, but all they did when they pressured

889
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,679
him was to convince him that John Carter did it.

890
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,440
He still maintained that he was not involved.

891
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:31,519
Speaker 26: All I can tell you is that that's where I was,

892
00:52:31,559 --> 00:52:34,800
and I'm sorry apparently that they don't fucking around the men.

893
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 4: As far as that goes.

894
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: He finally offered to take a polygraph, but detectives didn't

895
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,920
need him to because with his story and pieces all

896
00:52:46,039 --> 00:52:49,480
Rhodes led back to John Carter. It took over a

897
00:52:49,519 --> 00:52:53,559
month after John Palmerton's arrest for the Sheriff's office to

898
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:58,119
finalize all their evidence. Before arresting John Carter, they hoped

899
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:01,000
to confront him with their circle substantial evidence.

900
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 8: But David, you've been indicted and what murder?

901
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:12,159
Speaker 31: Okay? But what evidence first? And I think there's you're

902
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,840
you're thinking of. There's evidence that's got to be fingerprints.

903
00:53:16,559 --> 00:53:19,199
I mean, I mean, there's there's things called circumstantial evidence.

904
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:20,079
Speaker 8: Okay.

905
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 27: The whole story about the unknown suspector and the individual

906
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:28,199
who was ethic they uh at the festival, following you

907
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:29,960
and cat them to her house.

908
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,079
Speaker 8: No one's believing that, Okay. They didn't believe it when

909
00:53:34,119 --> 00:53:35,239
when when you first come out.

910
00:53:35,119 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 11: With Okay, but that was just like a thought. I mean,

911
00:53:38,039 --> 00:53:40,280
like you asked me my theories, and I gave you

912
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:40,880
my thought.

913
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 4: But I don't you.

914
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,639
Speaker 27: Told me no, no, no, no one asked you that question.

915
00:53:44,199 --> 00:53:46,039
That's the question you gave to the nine one one

916
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:47,559
operator day one.

917
00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 9: Okay.

918
00:53:49,559 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 8: Okay, So that I thought.

919
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 11: I thought maybe that could be a possibility. But I'm

920
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,400
not saying that's my story. I don't know what the

921
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:02,079
fuck happened. I have no idea of what happened. Maybe

922
00:54:02,119 --> 00:54:04,320
my stories are different sometimes here.

923
00:54:04,159 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 27: At some times, John, but your story has evolved constantly

924
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,960
over the past almost twelve.

925
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 5: Years, because it's been twelve fucking years.

926
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, but your story is not. This is never the

927
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,800
same story twice. That's the best part about all this.

928
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,199
It's never the same story twice.

929
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:22,199
Speaker 4: What are you talking about?

930
00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 11: Okay, that's not that's the unknown suspect following me thing.

931
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:28,159
Speaker 8: Okay, fine.

932
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 11: What I have been telling you and what I've been

933
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,400
trying to say is I have no clue what happened

934
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,639
to her, what I what I did by I said, Okay,

935
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,239
then then we're done. I'm gonna need I'm gonna need

936
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:43,400
to get my lawyer.

937
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 31: Yes, yes, because you'll be Please have a phone call,

938
00:54:47,639 --> 00:54:48,360
yes when you get.

939
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:48,639
Speaker 32: To the Jay.

940
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: John shut down the interview in six minutes. When word

941
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,920
of his arrests spread through the community, Caitlin's friends and

942
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,960
family felt like they always knew.

943
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,079
Speaker 9: This is where I'm not sure. Just in the last

944
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:04,679
week or so, I was sure if she really wanted

945
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:06,679
to do the trip. I know she didn't want to

946
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:07,280
do it with John.

947
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:08,079
Speaker 8: He was no help.

948
00:55:08,159 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 4: She didn't want to babysit him.

949
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 9: She had made those comments to other people almost sort

950
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,480
of like your marriage. Yeah, pretty much. He didn't do

951
00:55:17,519 --> 00:55:20,000
a thing. I mean, he's a pizza delivery guy. He

952
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:21,840
wants to stay up till three or four in the morning,

953
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,559
to sleep till tuning afternoon and deliver pieces for four hours.

954
00:55:24,559 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 4: And that's his ambition getting high.

955
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 8: And she was done with that.

956
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 33: Caitlyn was getting ready to graduate college.

957
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:32,639
Speaker 16: She was cleaning up.

958
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,639
Speaker 33: She was turning into a young woman and really mature

959
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:41,079
and making some really mature decisions for herself. I very

960
00:55:41,119 --> 00:55:45,039
specifically remember a time when she talked to me about

961
00:55:45,079 --> 00:55:48,320
her concern about being engaged to.

962
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,119
Speaker 4: John, that she seemed to me to be.

963
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:58,639
Speaker 34: Very uncomfortable, that it was going too fast and he

964
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:03,480
wanted more actually from her, and she wasn't comfortable with it.

965
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,159
And she at one point.

966
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 33: In time communicated that she was not physically attracted to

967
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,400
him anymore because he had gained so much weight.

968
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 5: And was not taking care of himself.

969
00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:19,679
Speaker 35: She was physically disgusted by him, Like she told me,

970
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,199
she was grossed out because he would smell. It was

971
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,960
a sharp discomfort that she did not want to be

972
00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:29,440
with him sexually, and we.

973
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,519
Speaker 2: Were talking again about her moved to Colorado, and I

974
00:56:31,559 --> 00:56:33,320
said something to the effect of like, well, what about

975
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,440
your wedding fans? Are you going to get married to Colorado?

976
00:56:35,519 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 15: Is that what you.

977
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 5: Guys are planning?

978
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,559
Speaker 20: And she kind of waffled on a little kagy and

979
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:42,000
she said, I'm not sure if we're going to get married.

980
00:56:42,039 --> 00:56:43,159
Speaker 5: I don't know if that's still.

981
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: Going to happen. Caitlin was having serious second thoughts about

982
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,519
her future, especially with John, and she shared her feelings

983
00:56:50,519 --> 00:56:54,559
with her friends. They all saw the writing on the wall.

984
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 8: I think she was fed up with him.

985
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 4: I think she was tired of you know.

986
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 8: She's very get it off with him. She's going to

987
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:02,559
call it rutter by herself.

988
00:57:03,039 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 34: But I always felt and knew she was going to

989
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:06,800
leave him.

990
00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 33: I saw her positioning herself to leave him.

991
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,159
Speaker 2: And I don't know how he did it, but I

992
00:57:12,159 --> 00:57:15,039
think that he sensed the relationship was ending, and I

993
00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:19,679
think that he not editorialized, but I think he was

994
00:57:19,719 --> 00:57:23,840
a little coward bitch baby, and rather than like be abandoned,

995
00:57:24,159 --> 00:57:25,599
I think he thought, well, I can just do this

996
00:57:25,679 --> 00:57:26,960
and no one's going to suspect me.

997
00:57:27,039 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 5: And all of us suspected him right away. All of us.

998
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 8: Knew that he did it.

999
00:57:32,159 --> 00:57:36,159
Speaker 1: John Carter was arrested and charged with unclassified murder and

1000
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,039
murdered during the commission of an assault. Here's the theory

1001
00:57:40,239 --> 00:57:45,199
the prosecution put against his two murder charges. Caitlin had

1002
00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:48,440
been coming to a tough decision in the weeks, maybe months,

1003
00:57:48,519 --> 00:57:51,480
leading up to her murder. She was about to graduate

1004
00:57:51,519 --> 00:57:54,679
and start her career, a career that she'd worked on

1005
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,639
so hard. John, on the other hand, was a lay

1006
00:57:58,679 --> 00:58:01,840
about sleepy all day, only to wake up and deliver

1007
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,239
a few pizzas every night. Typical redditor, loser. He didn't

1008
00:58:06,239 --> 00:58:08,320
have a degree, didn't have a career, He lived with

1009
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,679
his parents. He just didn't have any money or plans

1010
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,280
or prospects. Didn't seem to care to either. So many

1011
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:22,920
people like that around these days, entitled baby losers, expecting

1012
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,159
someone else to pay for their life anyway. That night

1013
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,280
at the festival, Caitlin was pissed he was wasting money

1014
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,960
on raffle tickets, like poor dumb people do. They got

1015
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,440
a no heated argument about something John said didn't happen.

1016
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,599
At that moment, she made her decision.

1017
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:41,599
Speaker 4: That was it. She was done.

1018
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: She wasn't going to let John dictate her life anymore.

1019
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,000
She wasn't going to put up with his shit. She

1020
00:58:48,039 --> 00:58:50,840
didn't want to move to Colorado with him. The next night.

1021
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,039
She was so preoccupied with this pending breakup that she

1022
00:58:55,039 --> 00:58:58,480
couldn't even enjoy hanging out with von Bargin. That's why

1023
00:58:58,480 --> 00:58:59,960
she was kind of rude to him when he came over.

1024
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,280
After he left, she likely told John she wanted to

1025
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,559
break up. That's when little bitch boy John likely snapped

1026
00:59:08,599 --> 00:59:12,800
and killed her, getting the scratches on his neck near

1027
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,599
his rainbow tattoo in the process. They never came from

1028
00:59:17,639 --> 00:59:21,199
an electric razor. They certainly didn't come from working down

1029
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:25,880
at the mill. Caitlyn's neighbor remembered being startled awake that night.

1030
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:27,519
Speaker 5: It was most.

1031
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 3: Certainly stop it. It was stop it in a name

1032
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,760
or a word. Stop it.

1033
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,159
Speaker 5: And then I heard the that was it, and then

1034
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:43,599
the and that went on for like maybe ten to

1035
00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:47,320
fifteen seconds. It was weird. It definitely caught my attention,

1036
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:48,559
and after that was silent.

1037
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,679
Speaker 1: Whether he meant to or not, it doesn't matter. He

1038
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,519
decided to cover it up. He spent the next few

1039
00:59:55,559 --> 01:00:00,159
minutes faking the text conversation with Caitlin while trying to

1040
01:00:00,199 --> 01:00:03,119
come up with a plan in his big dumb head.

1041
01:00:03,519 --> 01:00:06,519
When he went to the party to establish his alibi,

1042
01:00:07,159 --> 01:00:10,719
people noticed how distant he was. You're not as good

1043
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,159
of an actor as you think you are. It's a

1044
01:00:13,159 --> 01:00:17,559
lot harder than it looks. He absent mindedly stirred the

1045
01:00:17,599 --> 01:00:20,880
fire out back, while he was most likely burning some

1046
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,119
sort of evidence. He left the party at around the

1047
01:00:24,159 --> 01:00:27,400
same time Jonathan Palmerton got off work at Rick's tavern.

1048
01:00:28,079 --> 01:00:30,800
When the two teens saw those cars, it was John

1049
01:00:31,199 --> 01:00:34,960
and Jonathan. John was gathering the black landscaping plastic to

1050
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,599
wrap Caitlin's body in, and he was pressing play on

1051
01:00:38,679 --> 01:00:42,360
the next part of his alibi, the episodes of White

1052
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:46,039
Collar on his computer. This White Collar show looks like

1053
01:00:46,159 --> 01:00:49,679
utter trash by the way it's on USA. Who watches

1054
01:00:49,719 --> 01:00:53,880
shows on USA? Probably the same people who buy lottery tickets,

1055
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,039
come to think of it. But detectives found evidence of

1056
01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:01,079
him looking up the episode synopsis the next day, almost

1057
01:01:01,079 --> 01:01:04,159
like I had to memorize it. His computer activity was

1058
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:06,920
the only thing that put him at home, and it

1059
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,960
seemed to be fabricated phone records showed that not only

1060
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,800
did Caitlin's phone go dark shortly after midnight, but so

1061
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:21,039
did John's for hours. This is the timeframe he should

1062
01:01:21,039 --> 01:01:24,079
have been home, but detectives think he was wrapping her body,

1063
01:01:24,559 --> 01:01:27,039
putting a bag over her head, and transporting her to

1064
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:30,320
that dump site on the way to his dad's property.

1065
01:01:31,159 --> 01:01:35,039
After that was done, he went home, cleaned up, and

1066
01:01:35,079 --> 01:01:39,559
deleted any incriminating text messages, but he forgot to send

1067
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,400
that good morning text the next day. John may have

1068
01:01:44,559 --> 01:01:47,760
expected Caitlin's no call, no show at work to have

1069
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,840
raised alarms, but when it didn't, he had to be

1070
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,000
the one to report her missing to avoid more suspicion.

1071
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:00,840
This was the crucial misstep in his plan. Assumption that

1072
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,920
she was missing seemed extreme, and his theory about the

1073
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:09,800
festival goers being responsible seemed like an obvious misdirect to police.

1074
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,199
We've seen this kind of thing before, at least once

1075
01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:18,400
you know, it was something a guilty person would say.

1076
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,840
So while it seemed like the police were doing nothing,

1077
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,000
they were actually slowly building a case against John Carter.

1078
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:30,360
Additional circumstantial evidence added up over time. John spoke at

1079
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:34,840
a vigil for Caitlyn saying some peculiar things.

1080
01:02:36,119 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 22: There was a.

1081
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:40,039
Speaker 20: Candlelit vigil after she went missing that was held around

1082
01:02:40,119 --> 01:02:41,039
her birthday.

1083
01:02:41,599 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 5: But I remember John saying.

1084
01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:46,639
Speaker 20: To us, Caitlyn would have wanted this, and Megan and

1085
01:02:46,679 --> 01:02:48,519
I after the fact that like that was a weird

1086
01:02:48,519 --> 01:02:50,679
thing for him to say, Like, she would have wanted this,

1087
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,360
She would have wanted to like be here for her birthday.

1088
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,639
She would have wanted to like celebrate her birthday with

1089
01:02:55,639 --> 01:02:57,360
all these people who like clearly give a shit.

1090
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: He's all over the news talking about it, talk about

1091
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:02,039
her in.

1092
01:03:02,039 --> 01:03:05,079
Speaker 5: The bad sense, which was weird. And we all noticed.

1093
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,679
Speaker 1: That suspect referring to a missing person in the past

1094
01:03:08,719 --> 01:03:12,400
tense is always a bad sign. It implies he knows

1095
01:03:12,559 --> 01:03:16,159
she's gone. Maybe that's why he never helped with any

1096
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:20,400
of the searches. Then again, it was lazy.

1097
01:03:20,719 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 36: The very first search, and this left a very bad

1098
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,800
taste in my mouth. Very first search I went out on,

1099
01:03:28,679 --> 01:03:34,760
he was there. He was very monotone, very noncommittal to

1100
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,920
the search. And he came out to give us a

1101
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,760
pep talk who was out there searching, and he said,

1102
01:03:41,559 --> 01:03:44,679
I'm sorry I can't participate, but I have a bad knee,

1103
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:47,880
And I thought to myself, if that was somebody.

1104
01:03:47,519 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 5: I love, there's no way a knee would stop me

1105
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,159
from being out there. I'd be out there with a

1106
01:03:53,199 --> 01:03:55,079
machete chopping down every branch.

1107
01:03:55,679 --> 01:04:00,559
Speaker 37: I'd be out there with something digging out underneath every bush.

1108
01:04:00,599 --> 01:04:06,159
But he was just very monotone, one note, sorry, I

1109
01:04:06,199 --> 01:04:07,440
can't help you I have about me.

1110
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,599
Speaker 1: But he never missed an opportunity to play the grieving fiance.

1111
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,280
Victimhood is a very useful commodity these days.

1112
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 14: Just like he'd be fine and then it's like the

1113
01:04:18,559 --> 01:04:21,280
cameras were on him or he.

1114
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 38: Had to speak publicly, all of a sudden, he'd be

1115
01:04:23,599 --> 01:04:25,840
balling his eyes out, when the whole time you've been

1116
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,280
hanging out with him, or you've been around him, and

1117
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,480
he's been acting like everything's completely fine.

1118
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,159
Speaker 1: When he wasn't playing the grieving fiance, he was making

1119
01:04:35,159 --> 01:04:38,119
his way through all the other women in the extended

1120
01:04:38,159 --> 01:04:41,079
circle of friends, hitting on each one of them.

1121
01:04:41,559 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 14: I just found it strange that John had gone through

1122
01:04:45,159 --> 01:04:48,280
several females like in a short pound of time after

1123
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,559
his girlfriend and fiance high school sweetheart had been missing,

1124
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:55,039
and he went through me the Heather and then even

1125
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,559
Caitlin's best friend Amber, and he.

1126
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:00,719
Speaker 38: Had mentioned to all three of us he's always had

1127
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:01,400
a crush.

1128
01:05:01,159 --> 01:05:04,039
Speaker 6: On us while he was with Caitlin and not just

1129
01:05:04,519 --> 01:05:05,840
stripped a chord with me.

1130
01:05:06,719 --> 01:05:10,039
Speaker 1: But the results of the search warrants really sealed the deal.

1131
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:15,880
At John's mom's house, the authorities found black landscaping plastic

1132
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,960
in the garden shed out back, an item bought in

1133
01:05:20,119 --> 01:05:24,079
book and most likely kept for years. But more damaging

1134
01:05:24,079 --> 01:05:27,480
than that, they found a lot of odd poems and

1135
01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:31,880
writings from John. The most damning, perhaps was a single

1136
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:36,920
line scrawled in black sharpie on his closet door, isolate

1137
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,159
your wrists with the key to your heart. To further

1138
01:05:41,239 --> 01:05:45,199
cement their theory that the soft spoken, effeminate John Carter

1139
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,519
had a violent side, they included a recorded argument between

1140
01:05:49,639 --> 01:05:52,760
him and his ex. Get a load of this.

1141
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 8: He's stop talking to me, please.

1142
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,239
Speaker 1: I have got to take my medicine.

1143
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a good thing you've calmed down now that

1144
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:01,400
you push my buttons.

1145
01:06:01,559 --> 01:06:02,639
Speaker 30: No I haven't.

1146
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 22: I have five thousand things to do too, sweetheart.

1147
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 38: Welcome to my light.

1148
01:06:06,679 --> 01:06:09,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, you pushed a shipload of my buttons. Thank you.

1149
01:06:09,599 --> 01:06:12,280
Not my problem, not my problem.

1150
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:14,559
Speaker 1: You want to sleep early.

1151
01:06:14,519 --> 01:06:16,199
Speaker 8: Then your pain isn't my problem?

1152
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 30: Wow? Wow, wow, isn't my problem.

1153
01:06:20,639 --> 01:06:24,519
Speaker 12: You need stop while your head, stop for your head

1154
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,199
where you're you die?

1155
01:06:28,559 --> 01:06:30,039
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, go ahead.

1156
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 8: I don't think about it.

1157
01:06:31,559 --> 01:06:34,679
Speaker 7: I don't give a ship about I want you to

1158
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:39,480
stop acting like a fucking asshole on every fucking day everything.

1159
01:06:39,599 --> 01:06:43,159
Speaker 9: Take it out, pull them right out.

1160
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:44,639
Speaker 1: And I told you I'm.

1161
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:48,639
Speaker 7: Not you know, yes, stop to be a fucking asshole.

1162
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,239
Speaker 8: No every fucking day. No, I'm not, Yes, you are.

1163
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:56,519
Speaker 1: The perjury charges against Jonathan Palmerton would later be dropped

1164
01:06:56,679 --> 01:06:59,800
to make him available as a state's witness. Maybe it

1165
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:04,039
was Jonathan as a witness or the mountain of circumstantial evidence,

1166
01:07:04,199 --> 01:07:07,840
but John would never make it to trial. Instead, he

1167
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,920
would accept a plea deal like the pussy he was

1168
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:16,079
in exchange for pleading guilty. He would only be charged

1169
01:07:16,119 --> 01:07:20,800
with involuntary manslaughter. In June of twenty twenty four, two

1170
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:25,559
months shy of thirteen years since Caitlyn's disappearance, John Carter

1171
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:31,000
pled guilty, admitting he accidentally caused her death during an assault.

1172
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,239
Speaker 32: A little bit of relief, but boys, I was shaking,

1173
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:38,880
I was so I was literally shaking sitting there.

1174
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 4: I was so mad.

1175
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,159
Speaker 32: I wasn't shocked that there was a plea. I was

1176
01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:45,639
shocked at how little it carries. God forbid, he doesn't

1177
01:07:45,639 --> 01:07:48,840
get anything but three years. You know that's going to

1178
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,039
really feel like a letdown. If he doesn't get time,

1179
01:07:52,199 --> 01:07:53,960
then I'm not going to feel like there's justice.

1180
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:58,159
Speaker 1: He was sentenced to a maximum of three years in prison.

1181
01:07:59,039 --> 01:08:01,239
You see the statute of limitations that run out on

1182
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,840
the other charges like abuse of a corpse and disposal

1183
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,840
of the body, or he would have had a longer sentence.

1184
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:11,760
That statute is something David Markham hopes to work with

1185
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:16,279
lawmakers to change. It was all over, but how do

1186
01:08:16,319 --> 01:08:18,800
you have closure with just a three year sentence?

1187
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 32: That is why there's no closure. I still do not

1188
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,079
know the whole story, and not that I would have

1189
01:08:26,119 --> 01:08:29,159
believed him because he's live for thirteen years, but he's

1190
01:08:29,159 --> 01:08:32,960
offered no explanation, hasn't even tried to me. That just

1191
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:37,760
shows this character. I do respect and understand the prosecutor's office.

1192
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,039
It would have been a tough case, just a lot

1193
01:08:40,039 --> 01:08:44,239
of circumstantial evidence. Everybody wants to see some hardcore pictures

1194
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:49,079
or hardcore evidence to be on reasonable doubt. So I

1195
01:08:49,119 --> 01:08:51,840
think this is going to be rough on John, and

1196
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:54,119
I'm not concerned with that.

1197
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,520
Speaker 1: In the days following, Caitlin's loved ones gathered one last time,

1198
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,039
not for search, not for a plea for justice, but

1199
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:08,159
to finally say goodbye. As they stood together, a prayer

1200
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:12,920
was read, a prayer for peace for a soul taken

1201
01:09:13,159 --> 01:09:13,680
too soon.

1202
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 35: And Lord give us the perseverance to continue honoring Caitlyn

1203
01:09:20,039 --> 01:09:22,960
tomorrow and for as long as we live.

1204
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:29,319
Speaker 1: And then something unexpected happened. A butterfly fluttered past the crowd,

1205
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:32,279
landing gently on David's shoulder.

1206
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 32: And she liked butterflies. And I don't know, they just

1207
01:09:35,119 --> 01:09:37,279
there's been days that I've had bad days in the

1208
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:41,239
early on times, and the butterfly would come and fly around,

1209
01:09:41,319 --> 01:09:42,800
man like, oh my bad.

1210
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:47,039
Speaker 1: Twenty one year old Caitlin Markham was on the edge

1211
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:50,640
of something new. It was the beginning of the rest

1212
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,600
of her life. We've heard it so many times, these

1213
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:58,520
young people taken by violence. She spent her whole life

1214
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:02,159
pushing towards a future that she could shape for herself.

1215
01:10:03,119 --> 01:10:07,640
But sometimes moving forward means leaving things behind, and some

1216
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,479
people can't stand being left behind. John Carter, the man

1217
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:14,560
who had been at the center of the case from

1218
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,760
the start, the man who cried on television, the man

1219
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,800
who begged for help, the man who swore he had

1220
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:28,960
nothing to do with her disappearance and her death, was guilty.

1221
01:10:29,359 --> 01:10:34,399
Guilty of a crime of desperation, of fear of losing

1222
01:10:34,399 --> 01:10:38,760
the one person who defined his whole life. We may

1223
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,960
never know exactly what happened to Caitlin Markham that night,

1224
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,319
but we have a pretty good imagination, and we've seen

1225
01:10:46,359 --> 01:10:51,960
this kind of character before. Also, we know that Caitlin

1226
01:10:52,079 --> 01:10:56,840
Markham wanted a future, and John made sure she never

1227
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:00,720
got one. When the obligation of their relationship and John's

1228
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:04,920
expectations started to weigh Caitlin down, she tried to break

1229
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,439
herself free, but it came at a cost. The cost

1230
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:15,840
was everything, including herself. John Carter was never free, not

1231
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,359
after that night. His sense may have been three years,

1232
01:11:19,359 --> 01:11:24,000
but the real punishment that started long before his arrest.

1233
01:11:25,119 --> 01:11:27,840
The toughest prisons aren't made of bars. They're made of

1234
01:11:28,119 --> 01:11:34,319
choices that you can't take back, relationships you can't escape,

1235
01:11:34,920 --> 01:12:02,479
and the guilt that follows you wherever you go. That's

1236
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:04,359
going to do it for in another sword and scale.

1237
01:12:04,399 --> 01:12:06,199
Thank you so much for joining us and for being

1238
01:12:06,199 --> 01:12:11,720
a plus member. There's been a little bit of I

1239
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,239
don't know, talk about my apology a few episodes ago.

1240
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:20,119
A lot of people online, especially on Facebook, love the

1241
01:12:20,199 --> 01:12:23,800
drama and they just can't wait to find out how

1242
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:29,399
I got canceled in order to solicit such an apology. Well,

1243
01:12:30,199 --> 01:12:32,199
you're just a bunch of fucking idiots. You know that,

1244
01:12:32,239 --> 01:12:36,079
You're a bunch of bozos. Because the apology was sincere.

1245
01:12:36,119 --> 01:12:40,439
It was coming from me, and it was because I

1246
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:45,199
felt bad about my pattern of thinking that I recognized

1247
01:12:45,319 --> 01:12:52,039
was devolving into something ugly. You see, people are individuals

1248
01:12:52,039 --> 01:12:54,159
and you should treat them that way all the time.

1249
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,800
You don't put them into groups and label them and

1250
01:12:58,279 --> 01:13:02,640
you know, expect certain behaviors from them. Like some of

1251
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,279
the racists in our comment section. Those people are cunts.

1252
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:11,199
Think it through, asshole. What if you're that little boy,

1253
01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:16,560
fresh into the world with lots of expectations and hopes,

1254
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,079
maybe not such a great environment, maybe not such a

1255
01:13:21,119 --> 01:13:25,560
great set of parents. Do you really want to instill

1256
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:31,680
that hatred, that racism into that little boy? You really

1257
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:35,439
want to make him into what you think he is. No,

1258
01:13:37,079 --> 01:13:44,079
it's stupid, it's ignorant. That goes for any group, whether

1259
01:13:44,119 --> 01:13:49,039
it's blacks or immigrants or whatever. Thinking that way is

1260
01:13:49,119 --> 01:13:55,239
a spiral into hate, into division, into just a pure

1261
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:59,760
shitty garbage world. And we're already living in a pretty

1262
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,199
garb brige world, so I don't want to add to it.

1263
01:14:03,399 --> 01:14:08,840
Treat individuals as individuals every day.

1264
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:10,520
Speaker 4: That's that's it.

1265
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:15,520
Speaker 1: That's all I meant. So debate that if you want,

1266
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:19,439
but leave me the fuck out of it. I said

1267
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:24,880
all I needed to say, And uh, that's that. Have

1268
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,239
a good one and we'll see you here next week.

1269
01:14:28,720 --> 01:15:09,279
Stay safe. T