WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.000 Good evening and welcome to nov Our Live coming up tonight. 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.519 Andy Burnham and Louise Hay have unveiled their plans for 3 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.679 funding devolution, but do they stack up a number of 4 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:11.240 Burnham's new ministers have had their historic statements on the 5 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:14.759 guards of genocide highlighted, Spain's army tries to stop Moroccan 6 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:18.559 migrants entering its African enclave, and Diana Abbott has finally 7 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:21.760 been readmitted into the Labor Party. I'm Steven Bethan and 8 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.519 tonight I'm joined by Paul Holden. Paul, how are you doing? 9 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:26.640 I'm great, Thanks for having me back. 10 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.079 Like the show, A lot of people have been commenting 11 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:31.160 on it. 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We did this all 19 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:50.359 for you and we want to know what you think. 20 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.280 Prime Minister Andy Burnham has begun to unveil his plans 21 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.200 to devolve both political and economic power from London to 22 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.679 the regions, and the way he plans to do it seems, 23 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:02.679 on the face of it, uncomplicated. According to plans published 24 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.239 last night, the Burnham government will allow regional mayors in 25 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:08.840 England to retain a share of taxes raised in their areas. 26 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:12.159 In a statement, Burnham said this, I said we'd take 27 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.920 power out of Westminster and carry it into every postcode 28 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:17.519 in the country. Today we made good on that promise. 29 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:19.799 Under our plans, more of the taxes raised and a 30 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.200 community will stay in that community. Soon, every local leader 31 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:26.040 will have the power and resources to improve public transport, 32 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:29.079 build homes and create jobs. I know what it's like 33 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.959 to be ignored by politicians in Westminster. I'm not going 34 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:34.400 to make that same mistake now, I'm PM. The whole 35 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:36.640 of government will now pull together behind the people and 36 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.439 places that desperately need our support. This is how we'll 37 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:41.400 bring back hope and bring power. 38 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:41.920 Home to you. 39 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.480 Now, as with many of these announcements, there isn't much 40 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.159 by way of detail yet, with the government press release 41 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.599 saying this from next spring, mayors would begin retaining a 42 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.840 greater share of locally generated revenues, starting with business rates. 43 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:58.799 Further details on this and on income tax retention will 44 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.040 be set out in a roadmap the budget, and will 45 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.120 be underpinned by the government's firm commitment to fiscal discipline. 46 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.359 Over time, local areas will move away from dependence on 47 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.479 Whitehall grants and towards funding that rewards local growth. Regional 48 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:14.199 mayors will start being able to keep a share of 49 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.199 local business rates by twenty twenty seven, according to the plans, 50 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.120 and a share of income tax by twenty twenty eight. 51 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:22.800 Now isn't going to be any new money. 52 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.120 Though, but it is going to replace grants distributed by 53 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:27.639 the Treasury, and we don't yet know the size of 54 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.960 the share that mayors will be allowed to keep. That's 55 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.560 something that Chancellor John Healey is set to announce. The budget, 56 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:36.560 which he announced today will be on the twenty eighth 57 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.759 of October, in the middle of half term. Still some 58 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:43.680 mayors are already celebrating. South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard told 59 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.439 The Guardian this it's really important because it gets us 60 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:49.360 out of the death grip of the Treasury and gives 61 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:53.599 us that long term certainty around income According to the Guardian, 62 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:56.840 a reliable projected income stream will have an additional benefit 63 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:01.599 region for regional governments, with the Papers saying this England's 64 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.560 directly elected mayors, who control areas spanning three quarters of 65 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.080 the population, would be able to use the revenue generated 66 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.800 from business rates and income tax as they wish, including 67 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.759 tax breaks for important industries or rebates to residents. However, 68 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.759 experts said one of the most significant consequences was that 69 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.560 it would allow combined authorities to take out thirty year 70 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.360 loans against their projected income to fund major projects that 71 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.919 previously needed treasury approval. Local leaders will also be given 72 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.800 more freedom to operate independently of central government, with Transport 73 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.080 Secretary Hidi Alexander saying the threshold at which local leaders 74 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.639 need to seek treasury approval for projects or rise from 75 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.680 two hundred million pounds to five hundred million pounds. On 76 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.000 the Morning News Rounds, First Secretary of State Louise Haig 77 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:44.280 set out a little more detail on how it will work. 78 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.599 Income tax and business rates will still be set by 79 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.520 the UK government centrally, but different areas will be able 80 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:52.639 to retain a share of those and that will give 81 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.240 them an incentive to grow their economy so that they 82 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:57.240 can then keep a share of the proceeds of that 83 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.560 growth and reinvest it, so it becomes a virtual circle 84 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.759 of investment. You see this happen really successfully in countries 85 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.000 like France. I was in Leon not very long ago, 86 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:09.879 where they retain a proportion of their tax intake and 87 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.159 then they can invest it and they have world class 88 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:16.360 integrated transport systems and cities that are far smaller than 89 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.199 ones here where we don't have anywhere like the kind 90 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:20.319 of investment that they enjoy. 91 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.680 So what about areas. 92 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.519 I'm thinking we've got a mayor of London, the wealthiest 93 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.199 city in the country, that would get a proportion that 94 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:30.680 the same rules applies. It would get the proportion of 95 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.279 income tax. Yet if you go to a region elsewhere 96 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:35.920 in the country which won't have that same income tax, 97 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:37.480 it won't be getting as much money. 98 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.959 Is that fair? Yeah? 99 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.720 Correct, So areas will retain different proportions of their income 100 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:48.959 tax and business rates. That's exactly how it works at 101 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.120 the moment, with some business rates retention, and that's offset 102 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.680 by central government funding, so it will be it will 103 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:59.439 be offset by proportional formula that's set centrally to make 104 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:03.800 sure that funding is still is still fair and equal 105 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.519 across the country, but it will crucially give them that 106 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:10.199 incentive to really grow their economy, create extra jobs, invest 107 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.199 in their businesses, and ensure a thriving local economy that 108 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:17.240 they can then recirculate the revenue from into investment in 109 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:17.680 their area. 110 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.480 So Heyer's right that what's being proposed is actually fairly 111 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:22.959 standard in other G seven countries. 112 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.240 The BBC rather reports this. 113 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.720 The share of national taxes collected at a local level 114 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:31.879 in the UK is five point eight percent, the lowest 115 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.759 in the G seven. According to the OECD, That share 116 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:36.879 is far below that of other countries with large economies, 117 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.000 such as France at twenty point four percent, Japan at 118 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.759 thirty six percent, and the US at forty five point 119 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:45.879 seven percent. Paul, you may surprise, maybe you're going to 120 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.480 supplies me, but I can't find a lot to disagree 121 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.319 with in this. I mean, obviously there's very little detail. 122 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:55.040 We don't know what proportion of these taxes local governments, 123 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.360 local mayors will be able to take. There's also this 124 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.560 calculation that will determine that perhaps richer cities get less 125 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.519 of a share than poorer than poorer areas. But you know, 126 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:07.319 is this the right direction of travel? I mean, I'm 127 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:08.439 presuming going to say yes. 128 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.160 Now I feel like I have to do Devil's Advocate 129 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.079 and say no and make up so nonsense argument as 130 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:16.360 to why it's a bad idea. But I mean, I 131 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:22.120 think generally speaking, most people accept this idea, that that 132 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:23.319 localism is. 133 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:26.199 It's a good way of governing. 134 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.879 Generally speaking, the decisions that are sort of regionally driven, 135 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.160 where people have a direct implement over you know, their 136 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:38.160 own unique economic circumstances, generally produces better democratic outcomes. I 137 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.240 think that's pretty widely accepted, not least in you know. 138 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.160 And it has to be said that this country is 139 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.800 deeply and profoundly centralized. It really is a very you know, 140 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:50.759 much more so than other countries. You know, London and 141 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:55.120 the Treasury and Westminster exercises vast control over the day 142 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.079 to day life of huge numbers of people. And there 143 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.079 is this like real sense that there is a deficit 144 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:04.360 between what people around the country think is good for 145 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.000 them and what Treasury does. And there's really the sense 146 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:11.160 of a local politics being stifled. And I think it 147 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.319 has interesting it has interesting implications. 148 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:13.600 You know. 149 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.600 So, first of all the one the one caveat I 150 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:19.879 would say, the one negative thing I would say is 151 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:23.399 that just because governments as local doesn't necessarily it doesn't 152 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.199 necessarily always mean it's going to be quality governance, right, 153 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:28.399 because you can have bad local government and. 154 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:29.839 You can have corruption and all kinds of things go 155 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:31.000 on at that level. Yeah, And. 156 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:35.000 You know, one of the issues that that I think 157 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:36.480 will have to be looked at when it comes to 158 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:39.920 local government is the extent to which you've had Historically, 159 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:43.639 You've had regions and entities which have effectively become day 160 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.560 factor one party states which are very problematic in terms 161 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.360 of corruption. Right, so used to that and it doesn't 162 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.600 happen as much anymore. Well, certainly of the last local 163 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.800 elections have got more it got a bit more untidy 164 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.800 because of the Green surged. But for a long period 165 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:57.879 of time you had, you know, large parts of this 166 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.519 country where local government is efectively run by a single 167 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:02.920 you know, a single party. So the Labor Party, for example, 168 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.199 had fifteen out of sixty councilors in new them would 169 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.720 have seventy out of seventy two councilors in Newcastle, and 170 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:14.000 that can breed a problematic situation where you know, the 171 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.560 party itself, which is can be dysfunctional, produces a dysfunctional 172 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.319 selection of counselors who then don't represent people, and then 173 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:23.600 it becomes like a very problematic space for corruption. 174 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:25.519 That's true of sort of every level of government. 175 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.120 Right, So that's the one caveat I have is like, 176 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.000 you know, localism I think is a really a good idea, 177 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.960 but I also think there needs to be a discussion 178 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:36.480 about how we improve the quality of local government and 179 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:39.440 how we you know, it might be that that that 180 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.720 the way in which our local elections are structured needs 181 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.679 to be rethought so you don't have a situation where 182 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.399 one party dominates, because it really is problematic. I think 183 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:55.120 the exciting prospects are things like you you compare study 184 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.600 can't Sazarammdani, right, Like you can actually have under this 185 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.720 smart it is believable and incredible and imaginable that you 186 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:08.519 can have a form of like actually effective municipal socialism. 187 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:09.279 Right. 188 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.039 It does actually give the scope for you to do 189 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.639 the pressor model and plenty of different places. It does 190 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.919 actually give you the scope for mayors like zom i'm 191 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.279 daney to emerge as national political players. The question would 192 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.120 anybody takes up that opportunity and runs with it? But 193 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.240 it could be like really interesting in terms of shaping 194 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.159 our sort of national political conversation. 195 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.000 And also majorties will become a much hotter political race. 196 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:36.919 Right everybody is going to want to be the mayor 197 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.320 of somewhere because you have you'll have a bit of 198 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.240 what Burnham had in Manchester, but like everywhere right where 199 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:44.759 you've got a sort of great little power, you've got 200 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:46.240 an independent budget and so on and so forth. 201 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:47.879 It can be very attractive. One of the things I 202 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:48.519 thought was really. 203 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:53.080 Interesting is this idea of like enabling borrowing, because obviously 204 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.039 that could be quite large amounts of borrowing based you know, 205 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.759 over thirty years for a region, based on its tax 206 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.440 tax revenue, So an easy calculation more or less to 207 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.759 make is a kind of a way of getting borrowing 208 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:12.320 in for infrastructure, but not via central governments books perhaps. 209 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.919 Yeah, and that again, that could genuine that that's the 210 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:16.759 one thing you read. I was like, that's actually really interesting. 211 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:19.639 That's like really transformative. You can actually have large scale 212 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:23.120 local borrowing. Again, I'm going to sound like a bit 213 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.759 of a warning. 214 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:25.879 Saying like birming and Birmingham. 215 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:28.440 Actually my thinking, I've been reading a lot. I've been 216 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:30.440 reading and I'm going to totally forget its name, but 217 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.960 I've been reading a very interesting book about Manchester recently, 218 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:35.279 which is about, you know, looking at the history of 219 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.399 Manchester over the last hundred years and takes up to 220 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:41.600 the current cycle. And it looks at basically the development 221 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.000 of Manchester over the last twenty years under Andy Burnham, 222 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.919 which he sort of runs on as like I've brought 223 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.080 prosperity to the city, and of course the picture is 224 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.960 a lot more complicated, where effectively what you've had, according 225 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:52.759 you know to a more cynical and more sort of 226 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:56.360 a left bring analysis, is that well you've actually had 227 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.799 a lot of state money, you know, effectively loans being granted. 228 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.759 Development is granted by the state and the local government 229 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.039 to private entities which have built these massive tower blocks 230 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:08.799 and effectively turns it into a rentier city. 231 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:09.279 Pretty much. 232 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.879 One private entity is right here, which is the main 233 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.080 ones that they've got two hundred million dollars. It's undred 234 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:16.559 million pounds out of the four hundred million that's been 235 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.639 being learned out. So you know, these are all good things. 236 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.360 It's good to have localism. I do worry that, like 237 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.639 so much of Britain's you know, this is all happening 238 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.799 in the context of a broader macroeconomic situation where the 239 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.080 returns for capital are always better when it comes to 240 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.320 building rentier house, and it does when it comes to 241 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:38.000 actually building. You know, if it's going to be investment driven, 242 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.320 that's going to be and ins investment driving around housing, 243 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.080 that's going to potentially have perverse outcomes. If it's instead 244 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.600 used to be like we're arguable one hundred thousand actually 245 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.519 counsel home properties, that's transformative. If it's combined with other 246 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:52.720 thing I think it's interesting, which I think is maybe 247 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.240 the need to be seen together is the plans for 248 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:57.840 the National Care Service because the key, the key drain 249 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.799 on local budgets is as care. So if you take 250 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:02.639 if you have a national care service and then you 251 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.320 have local fundraising, suddenly you're going to have these these 252 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:08.639 mayoralties and these these these local councils which actually for 253 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:12.000 the first time probably in forty years, will have the 254 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:14.840 budget to spend and they could spend that money either 255 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:20.519 catalyzing Redia style investment, or they could be building council housing, 256 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.840 or they can be building integrated infrastructure or positive opportunities, 257 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.360 but which you basically need like local political activism to take. 258 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:32.559 And of course, like local political activism is easier at 259 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.679 the local level, right, You're much more likely to influence 260 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:36.840 your your mayor or your local council than you are 261 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:38.720 to the national government. 262 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:42.360 That's an interesting I'm not so sure how that's true. 263 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:46.080 That actually is right? It mus it must be. I 264 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.799 feel like it. I suppose. 265 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:51.679 I mean, you'd think it would be right, but then 266 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.679 I but then I think of my experience and like 267 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.799 the dirtiest, the ugliest part of the labor party is 268 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.440 like a counselor level. Like that's where it's like tooth 269 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.240 and nail nastiness and also the pettiest stuff, right, because 270 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.840 that's like the that is the hardcore. These are people 271 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:12.000 who have given their lives. They want to be politicians. 272 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:13.960 They can make some money off it, they can make 273 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.960 money of being counselors, but they can also then you know, 274 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.120 benefit potentially from maybe I'll be able to become you know, 275 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.879 the owner of a parking lot, or you know, I'm 276 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:25.600 going to be controlling zoning that sort of stuff. That 277 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.279 there is scope for personal enrichment there and you'd think 278 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.039 that like localized democracy would be better. But if it's 279 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.799 localized democracy being enacted through a one party stay through 280 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:38.960 a dysfunctional party. 281 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.279 Actually yeah, sure, and it's actually quite hard. 282 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:47.039 And the other thing that's going to have to you know, 283 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.759 one of the issues around local democracy that we have 284 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.519 is like the death of local media, which is really profound. 285 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.080 You know, you have a couple of cities where it's 286 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.360 where it's surviving and it's thriving, and a lot of 287 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.679 places it's not. And that's you know, that's one of 288 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:04.360 the things that generally militates against like a degree of accountability. 289 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.399 So I'd be interested to see whether, now there's money 290 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.120 returning to these places, whether that will then fund organically 291 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.519 an emergence of an alternative or new local media, because 292 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:17.519 it used to be you'd have like local newspapers to 293 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.440 reach little eco you know, great investigative papers like actual 294 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.080 you know, you know, really good. Now they sadly they've 295 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:25.720 been like really hollowed out. 296 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.919 Yeah, you know, pretty much only owned by one BBC 297 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.080 local journalism completely wrecked. 298 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.600 Yeah, so you know, all potentially positive, but these are 299 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.200 the things that we have to like deal with is 300 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:36.919 that you know you will then have to be will. 301 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.039 Then there has to be a commensurate commitment to being like, well, 302 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.639 you can't. You actually need to improve the quality and 303 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.879 the ability of people to engage in the local democracy 304 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:47.279 for localism to work. 305 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:49.960 Great. Okay, let's move on with this story now. 306 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.159 Now, this plan for a bit of economic devolution is 307 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:55.240 intended to free regional mayors to stimulate their own economies 308 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:58.720 by investing in things like infrastructure and the infrastructure that 309 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.679 best serves their community. But some think it doesn't go 310 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.240 far enough. Mayor of Tees Valley and Tory Pierre ben 311 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.120 Houchin said this, I'd rather ministers just cut out the 312 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.440 middleman and lower taxes, but if they're handing me a 313 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:14.320 share of the income tax raised on Teesside, true devolution 314 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.080 means a decision where to spend it is for locally 315 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.679 elected leaders. I want to give every penny back to 316 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.080 the workers who earned it through a rebate scheme. If 317 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.320 people don't like that, they can vote for someone else. 318 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.879 That's what real accountability looks like. But today Westminster decided 319 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.480 it knew better as it always does. Now, if reporting 320 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:34.440 from private eye is to believe done, you know, I 321 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.320 don't know whether it is. Houchin may in fact be 322 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:39.480 a pretty good counterargument to devolution. This relates to the 323 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.080 Teesworks freeport in Teeside, the development of which has been 324 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:47.399 dogged by allegations of lack of transparency, lack of transparency 325 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.200 and poor value for public money. This is from Richard Brooks, 326 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.519 writing in Private Eye in twenty twenty five. It was 327 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.120 to be the UK's largest regeneration scheme in decades, a 328 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.000 model for regional devolution, and the flagship post Brexit free 329 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.159 But the redevelopment of the former steel works on the 330 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:04.279 south bank of the River Tees became little more than 331 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.840 an unlawful, taxpayer funded scheme to promote the political career 332 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.240 of a Tory golden boy and vastly enrich a couple 333 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.039 of local businessmen and their families, all hidden in a 334 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.080 web of deception. 335 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:16.279 Don't hold your punch, as Richard. 336 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.120 In twenty twenty four, an independent investigation into the Teesport 337 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:21.720 development found that deals had been done in secret, public 338 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.399 funders had been misled, the private companies involved had made 339 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.159 zero investments into that scheme, and there was no evidence 340 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.240 that it represented value for money for the public. And 341 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:30.679 now it's important to point out that there were no 342 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:35.240 findings of criminality or corruption with dishonesty. Louise Hay had 343 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:37.399 this response to Hutchin's rebate proposal. 344 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.399 At the moment, that's not how it works. They have 345 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.000 lines of funding and they go in. That's how it's 346 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.879 invested into public services. We've seen what the mayors have 347 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.840 said about rebates. There's not a system that would currently 348 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.480 allow that, and they certainly wouldn't be able to set 349 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.679 tax rates locally or regionally, but will consider what proposals 350 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.919 are put forward. The real purpose of this, though, is 351 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.680 to allow areas to benefit when they create growth, when 352 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.559 they create new jobs, and to keep investing in their 353 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.079 local areas in public services, in transport, and to keep 354 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:12.480 that virtuous circle of investment. 355 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.000 I suppose the point is that if you're giving power 356 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:18.079 to localities, and that's very much what you say want 357 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:20.640 to do, then you would have to give them the 358 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:23.839 power to do things that you might not necessarily approve 359 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.599 of you as a labor party, are you willing to 360 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.240 say yes if Ben Houtcher wants to do something differently, 361 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:35.039 if the mayor of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdon, who we talked 362 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.599 to earlier on Cambridgire and Peterborough. If he wants to 363 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.240 do things that he wants to do, then we are 364 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:45.200 willing to allow those people to have the freedom to 365 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.359 do things and to see whether they were well. 366 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:53.119 That's exactly right, and we can't sit back and allow 367 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.119 this country to remain the most centralized in the G seven, 368 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.079 which is held back our growth and our productivity and 369 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.279 held back investment levels because we worry that certain parts 370 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.759 of the country might elect different political parties to our own. 371 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.720 I mean calling naive. I feel like it probably won't 372 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.880 work like that right in the end. Excuse me, but 373 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.359 I think there is something to be said about, you know, 374 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.160 perhaps as a way in which when you when you 375 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.559 inject money into these regional areas, where you allow them 376 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:26.319 to keep some of the money that they're generating in 377 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.440 order to spend locally, it does give bad leaders in 378 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.319 those areas enough rope playing themselves with it and be 379 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.440 elected out as so long as there is an opposition 380 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:35.839 to to. 381 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.079 But that's actually it's interesting because because when I first 382 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.960 read the story, I thought that actually we hey were saying, 383 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:43.200 we know we're not going to allow that to happen. 384 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.640 It's actually basically seemed to be she used to be suggested, well, 385 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.319 that's what you want to do, you know, on your 386 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.119 head be it. You know, your local voters will hold 387 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:52.839 your accountable, and I think they would hold them all. 388 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.519 She said, there is there's no mechanism to do it. 389 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.119 But then she does also say she does basically say, 390 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.720 you know, you know, we will bring forwards proposers and 391 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:01.680 will scuss. So it's not a hard not I mean, 392 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.680 I think it would be a little bit mad to 393 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.039 basically be like, here as twenty percent of your you know, 394 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:09.599 here's a master lack of money, just give it back 395 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:11.519 as tax rebates to a really wealthy people instead of 396 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.559 investing in infrastructure. I suspect they'll probably be slightly more 397 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.480 controlled than that. But the point stance and the point 398 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.799 that I was making earlier and again, I think it's 399 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.319 useful to bring up Pouchin and the tea side development. 400 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.799 And I really would encourage people to go and read 401 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.160