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Sign up now at 45 00:01:58.040 --> 00:01:59.879 Chumba Casino dot com. 46 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.560 NOBE don't have them where every lost the term conditions 47 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:03.319 eating class. 48 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:15.919 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 49 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:19.039 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 50 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:26.360 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 51 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.080 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 52 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.400 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 53 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.280 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 54 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.680 Good Evening. Every once in a great while, a genuine 55 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:56.000 murder mystery unfolds before the public size such is the 56 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.759 tragic case is Susan Powell and her murdered boys, Charlie 57 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:03.240 and Braden. When the pretty Utah mother went missing in 58 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:06.639 December of two thousand and nine, the media was swept 59 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:09.560 up in the story, with lenses and microphones trained on 60 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:13.199 Susan's husband, Josh. He said he had no idea what 61 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:15.719 happened to Susan, and that he and the boys had 62 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:18.599 been camping in the middle of a snowstorm. It was 63 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:22.080 hard to know what or who to believe. Over the 64 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.759 next three years, bombshell by bombshell, a world of secrets 65 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.520 about the Powell family came to light. Josh's father, Steve, 66 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.680 who was sexually obsessed with Susan, would ultimately be convicted 67 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:39.240 of unspeakable perversion, Josh's brother Michael would commit suicide, and 68 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:42.159 in the most stunning event of them all, Josh Paul 69 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:46.639 would murder his two little boys before killing himself. Why 70 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:50.199 did he do it? What really happened to Susan? This 71 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.919 is the shocking true story of the Powell family that 72 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:56.199 no reader will soon forget. The book that we're featuring 73 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.800 this evening is If I Can't Have You, Susan Powell, 74 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.000 her mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children, with 75 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:07.919 my special guest, journalist and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back 76 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:09.560 to the program, and thank you very much for a 77 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.000 green In his interview, Rebecca Morris. 78 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:14.840 Hi, Dan, thank you so much for having me again. 79 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:15.840 It's always nice. 80 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:16.199 Talking to you. 81 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:21.040 It's always a pleasure. And this is one heck of 82 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:27.360 a story. If I Can't Have You, let's talk about 83 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.680 why you came to want to write this book, how 84 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:32.360 you came to be in a physician to write this 85 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:33.319 incredible book. 86 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:38.399 Well, and I wrote this with my co author, Greg Olson, 87 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.519 my sometimes co author. We write some nonfiction, some true 88 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.800 crime together, and he also writes a lot of fiction. 89 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:52.160 But in we started following this case pretty much as 90 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.560 soon as Susan disappeared in two thousand and nine. And 91 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.519 as you and I have talked about Dan, a publisher 92 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:02.480 is like a case adjudicated and has an ending. So 93 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:04.800 there are a lot of cases where we just kind 94 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.360 of watched to see what happens and saw this unfold. 95 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.399 And uh, I had begun in two thousand eleven, so 96 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.839 basically a year and a half after Susan disappeared, actually 97 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:22.040 you know, putting together some research and and uh towards 98 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:27.319 towards doing a book. And then when Josh killed his 99 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:31.240 sons and himself on February fifth of two thousand twelve, 100 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.720 you know it, we just jumped into high gear because 101 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:39.040 it looked like that was you know, the ending of 102 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.839 Susan hadn't been found and uh still has not been found. 103 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:49.920 But uh we we then jumped on it, and UH 104 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:52.720 and I spent the next uh you know, a couple 105 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:57.040 of years, UH talking to Susan's friends and family. You 106 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.120 can't really do a book like this without uh to 107 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.439 this extent, without family involvement. And her parents, Chuck and 108 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.439 Judy Cox, were very open with us and really wanted 109 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.680 to keep her name and face out there and so 110 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:14.879 they spent you know, many hours with us. I went 111 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.120 to Utah twice to get to know her, her friends, 112 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:23.800 and and to you know, drive to the area of 113 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:29.079 that that desert where Josh said that he and the 114 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:35.120 boys had gone camping. So then this became the first 115 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.439 and only you know, full length uh book. Uh D. 116 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:41.079 One of Josh's sisters has written kind of a memoir 117 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.959 of life in the family, but uh this is you know, 118 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:51.199 it's just a incredibly sad story. And I just realized 119 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.399 we're coming up on the anniversary. You'd be uh nine 120 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.759 years this December sixth uh. 121 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:03.959 Since she uh disappeared, absolutely and very close to the 122 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:09.480 dating question that this horror story began, and that was 123 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.279 December seventh, two thousand and nine. And you take us 124 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:17.759 to a neighbor friend dead be called well. And before 125 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.879 that you introduce West Valley City, which is a suburb 126 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:27.800 of Salt Lake City, and also the subject of Salt 127 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.519 Lake City obviously is as you write, a mecca for 128 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:34.879 lack of a better word, for Mormons. And so tell 129 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.160 us a little bit about this Mormon and its connection 130 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.000 to this story and these people, and a little bit 131 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.000 about West Valley City outside of Salt Lake City. 132 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.519 Well that's one reason I spent a lot of time 133 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:52.079 there because I'm not Mormon, but I wanted to learn 134 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.399 as much as I could, and I wanted to as 135 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:58.160 much as an author can step into that world. So 136 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:02.439 all of Susan's you know, closest friends, uh were Mormon, 137 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.199 and her life, you know, her family very active in 138 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:10.319 the Mormon Church in Puel Up, Washington. Josh's family had 139 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.800 been Mormon, and his father, Steve, had even gone on 140 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:17.920 a on on the assignment once as they do when 141 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:22.639 they're when they're college age. But his father and siblings 142 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.120 had gradually left the church, and in fact, part of 143 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:31.120 their vendetta Steve and Josh is against Susan, you know, 144 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.559 creating these stories that she'd just run off or run 145 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:37.519 off with a with another man or something. Then they 146 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:40.879 they turned on the on the church and and blamed 147 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:44.120 the church. But West Valley City is a it's a suburb. 148 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:49.519 It's a kind of a very sprawling, you know a 149 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:55.000 lot of a lot of malls and I got lost 150 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.840 a lot. Uh Yeah, I think it's really people probably 151 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.759 know this, but all the address is around the Salt 152 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:06.080 Lake City area pertained to the their distance from the temple, 153 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.960 and so a lot of places have actually two addresses. 154 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:15.080 But uh, her neighborhood, you know, were all her Mormon friends. 155 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:20.639 They attended the same ward, which is the local place 156 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.639 of worship in a in a community, and you know, 157 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:27.879 it was a just a very close group they you know, 158 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:32.639 her Mormon friends were her daycare provider, they were the 159 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:37.080 people she worked with at at Wells Fargo. Uh, they 160 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.240 were you know, they walked to church together on Sundays 161 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:45.159 in the neighborhood and just a a very close knit community. 162 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.840 And Susan was very open with these friends. So we 163 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.840 have her you know, uh Facebook posts and her journals 164 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.799 and some of her letters and and you know, they 165 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.759 they knew that the the problems between Josh and Susan 166 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:02.039 were we're growing over the years. 167 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:07.200 Now you introduce and again you have mentioned that without 168 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.519 this cooperation and this information, you wouldn't be able to 169 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.919 write this incredible book with this access. And so that's 170 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:19.159 Chuck and Judy Cox, Susan's parents, and at the time, 171 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:21.559 Susan is twenty eight at the time of the story 172 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.320 and Josh is thirty three years old. Then they have children, 173 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:28.799 Brayden and Charlie, and they're one's five and one's three. 174 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:30.919 I believe that's their agency. 175 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.960 Tell us a little when she appeared, but their birthdays 176 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.440 are both in February, so it's a little you know, 177 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.720 a little close there. But I think there were two 178 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:42.120 and four. 179 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.399 Tell us a little bit about Susan's life growing up 180 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:53.960 and with Chuck, and what's chuck Chuck's background, because Chuck's 181 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.240 background is important to this story as well, So tell 182 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:58.480 us a little bit about life with Chuck and Judy 183 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:00.879 and and his background. 184 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:06.120 Well, it was it was, you know, a a a 185 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:11.840 really close family. Chuck and Judy had four daughters. Susan 186 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:15.759 was I believe the third of the fourth, and the 187 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:21.519 girls were close. They haven't necessarily stayed as close to 188 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:27.840 the church as their parents have, uh, but Susan and 189 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.000 her sister Deniece were uh particularly uh close uh all 190 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:36.240 through growing up in their young adulthood. So the the 191 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.320 the the thing is with in the Mormon Church is 192 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:46.240 that the reason young couples kind of date a short 193 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.399 time and Mary is they're not supposed to have any 194 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:52.919 you know, intimacy before marriage, and so you know, uh, 195 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:55.720 Josh and Susan dated. I think It was just eight 196 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:59.720 months before they were engaged and got married. They had 197 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.759 me at at there are a lot of social activities 198 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.120 for young Mormons so that they can meet each other 199 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:10.799 and and date and Mary and Uh Susan had met 200 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:14.399 Josh at at one of these young people's UH events. 201 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:22.320 Susan at the time was in attending a UH hairstyling 202 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:28.799 school and UH Josh was finishing at the University of Washington, 203 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:35.039 I believe, and uh they had both you know, dated. 204 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.840 Some but. 205 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:43.399 Uh d U Susan assumed, you know, she she and 206 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.759 her fam new family, her family would be would be Mormons. 207 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:51.240 They'd they'd stay probably in Washington State, and you know, 208 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.000 she'd have children. That was the most important, you know 209 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.799 thing for her, and you know, m We know they 210 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.600 they actually moved to Utah because Josh's father was so 211 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.799 obsessed with Susan and she just wanted to get away 212 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:05.159 from him. 213 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:09.639 Now, tell us a little bit about Josh and it's complicated, 214 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:13.799 but you alluded to this that there was problems. She 215 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.440 believed that she was she knew she was Mormon, but 216 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.120 she believed that that he would come around, at least 217 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:25.679 in terms of their common goal of being of having 218 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:30.159 this religious pursuit tell us a little bit about Josh's parents, 219 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:36.200 and particularly Steve and his attitudes towards the Mormon Church 220 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:37.320 and his experiences. 221 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.960 Yeah, and I actually forgot to talk about Chuck. I 222 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:47.000 will very quickly. He is You could not invent a 223 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:53.519 more interesting character father than he is, you know, so sharp, 224 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:57.600 so determined to find Susan and to find out the truth. 225 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.960 And his background was he'd been in the air and 226 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.519 uh he had been he was a uh an FAA 227 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:08.399 Crisch investigator, so he knew about, you know, the ways 228 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.120 investigations are conducted, and he'd been to accident sites and 229 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:18.039 so all of that would you know, uh, not necessarily 230 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:22.360 prepare him for what happened to his daughter, but made 231 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:29.200 him a a particularly good ally for his uh missing 232 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:36.960 daughter and somebody uh particularly you know, unusually sharp that 233 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.840 the West Valley City Police Department probably wasn't used to 234 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.360 to working with Josh's family. His parents had both been 235 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:49.320 uh Mormons, and his mother remained Mormon. Uh. What we 236 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.879 know is we learned a lot about Josh as a 237 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:57.399 as a teenager from their divorce documents, and his parents 238 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.919 divorced when uh, when Josh was a teenager and he 239 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:07.840 was one of five children, three girls and two boys. 240 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:11.919 And in the divorce documents and when his parents are 241 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:16.320 are you know, doing a custody uh battle over the 242 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.360 five kids. It it was included in the reports that 243 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:22.960 Josh had threatened his mother with a knife when he 244 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:26.279 was a teenager. You know, he'd killed his sister's gerbil, 245 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.399 you know, and and there'd been a lot of acting out. 246 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:35.799 And Steve Powell, who turned on the Mormon Church, didn't 247 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.679 just leave it, but really turned on it, had a 248 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:45.360 great deal of sway over his children. Uh. Four of 249 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:50.360 the five children, uh after the divorce lived with him 250 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:57.000 and lived with him well into their adult years and began, 251 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.679 you know, really believed what he believed, whatever that was, 252 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.519 whether it was about you know, his views on marriage, 253 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.480 or his views on the church, or his you know, 254 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:15.039 views on Susan and Josh. He just was you know, 255 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:20.480 very very controlling. And that is the atmosphere also that 256 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:25.919 Josh and Susan's young sons found themselves after she disappeared. 257 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:32.639 Now, talk about this atmosphere that she came into and 258 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.639 she you know, meets Steve and the family and as 259 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.600 married to Josh, what are some of the events. We 260 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.279 don't want to give everything away because in this book 261 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:47.879 you did that information comes to everybody and including the 262 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:53.440 reader in time. But let's talk about what the environment 263 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.080 was in the home environment that people even from the 264 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.960 outside knew. People that didn't know everything. What did people, 265 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.480 including Chuck Cox and Judy Cox, what did they know 266 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:04.920 about this relationship? 267 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:12.440 Okay, now, are you wondering about the relationship within Steve's 268 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.799 house or or Josh and Susan Later. 269 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.920 We're talking about we're talking about Yeah, we're talking about 270 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.480 Josh and Susan, But we I wanted to have the 271 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:28.559 audience understand that that there had been a break between 272 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:33.359 Steve and Susan, and there was follows about those events. 273 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.519 Susan and Josh lived for a while at Steve's and 274 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.319 you know, they'd had they had they had some various jobs, 275 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.119 and they were having trouble sort of you know, standing 276 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:50.920 financially on their own, and Steve invited them to live 277 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.200 in his house for a little while. They actually lived 278 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:57.200 in I think it was a second bedroom or a 279 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.880 dan on the main floor that didn't have a door, 280 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:06.000 so they they haun curtains. But Susan discovered that Stephen 281 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:11.200 was a voyeur and was you know, peeking at her 282 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:16.519 and brushing up against her, and he even declared his 283 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:21.000 love for her. And we know, uh, we'd found out 284 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:24.000 later that he was also taking pictures of her when 285 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.359 she was in the bathroom and she didn't know it. 286 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.480 And and but she she. 287 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:34.200 Uh, you know, he he had this idea that Susan 288 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.519 would leave Josh and Steve would marry her and they'd 289 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.519 raise you know, his his grandkids together. So she told 290 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.599 uh Josh that you know, this is pretty creepy, and 291 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.319 he agreed they could move, so they they moved to Utah. Uh, 292 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:57.680 so she you know, really fled uh pull up her Uh. 293 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:01.160 Her parents, Uh, Chuck and Judy. I don't think they 294 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:06.799 knew the details of what was going on Susan, you know, 295 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.559 pretty much all along the way protected them in some ways. 296 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.200 They they weren't people that she you know, turned to 297 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.880 when things weren't their worst with Josh, and she had 298 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.680 friends that she turned to, but I think there was 299 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.480 a lot her parents uh didn't know. Because of course, 300 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:29.440 one of the important things and and the Mormon faith 301 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:35.599 is that you stay married and you do whatever you 302 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.960 have to can you do to stay married. And Uh, 303 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.839 Susan did go to UH counseling with a Mormon counselor 304 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.039 and Josh I think went went once and that was it. 305 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.759 But UH, she most likely was encouraged to to work 306 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.519 things out. So what her friends knew at the time 307 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.559 of her disappearance was that Josh wasn't working Susan was. 308 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:04.240 Josh c controlled the money. Josh sometimes didn't give Susan 309 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:08.079 enough money to buy groceries for the kids. Susan sometimes 310 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.440 called a neighbor to see, if, you know, if they 311 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.759 had a couple extra hot dogs or something she could 312 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:17.000 feed her boys. Josh should turn. He was always kind 313 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:23.799 of quirky, but the people around Susan, you know, began 314 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.400 to pick up on he was just, you know, becoming 315 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:32.480 becoming mean and controlling, and they were very worried about her. 316 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:38.680 It's interesting too that you talk about not having enough 317 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.640 food and she was the breadwinner, but also that at 318 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:45.160 the same time he was depriving her of things and 319 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.480 the children of food. He didn't deprive himself of anything, 320 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:48.759 did he. 321 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:54.200 Oh my gosh, his garage when he packed up to 322 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.240 after Susan went missing, you know, within within a week 323 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:00.279 or two. He was packing up to leave, and uh, 324 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.400 he had spent he had you know, two three four 325 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:10.599 of everything in the house, whether computers, cameras, gardening equipment. Ah, 326 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.960 he just had and just boxes and boxes of things 327 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.559 and duplicate things that he'd bought. So he you know, 328 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.720 treated himself to whatever. You know, I the more I 329 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.240 found out about this story, Dan, the more it became. 330 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.079 You know, it's a it's a story of domestic violence. 331 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.880 They were not known to the West Valley City Police 332 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:37.680 before she disappeared. It it wasn't that Josh you know, 333 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.720 beat her and had been called to the house. Uh, 334 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.279 and the police have been called to the house numerous times. 335 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.240 There's a lot of domestic violence that isn't It doesn't 336 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:52.160 fall into that what we think of domestic violence. It's 337 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.440 it's very controlling, and you know, they did shove each other, 338 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:02.160 you know, once somewhere along the way. But you know, 339 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:06.039 I discovered that Josh had actually been planning for a 340 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.400 couple of years too. You know, he didn't want to 341 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.880 be married. He didn't want to be a father either, 342 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:15.440 but which was surprising because he you know, fought tooth 343 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.279 and nail for custody of the kids later, but he 344 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.359 didn't really want to be a father, He didn't really 345 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.240 want to be a husband. 346 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.960 Let's talk about the children before we talk about December seventh, 347 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:31.759 two thousand and nine, and the crime scene itself. That's very, 348 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:37.079 very mysterious and has more questions and answers. Let's talk 349 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:39.160 about the four year old and two year old Charlie 350 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.559 and Braden, and just a little bit when those children 351 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.039 arrived and how happy was Susan, And also some talk 352 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.680 of a little bit later that not everybody, especially Chuck 353 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.440 and Judy by that time, thought it was unusual for 354 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.119 her to have another child. Tell us about that. 355 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:09.559 Well, you know, Susan was just uh elated when she 356 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.279 found out that she was uh pregnant. 357 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:14.039 With uh. 358 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:18.000 Charlie was the first son and one of the strangest 359 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:23.720 stories in UH in the book, and yes, Dan is 360 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:26.240 just the the story of the day that she was 361 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.440 to give birth and her parents had come down from 362 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:33.279 pew wallup to West Valley City to be with her, 363 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:37.759 and you know, her water broke at home and Josh 364 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.799 was downstairs on his computer and couldn't kind of be 365 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:46.319 bothered to to step up her p Her parents drove 366 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:47.519 her to the hospital. 367 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.480 Yes, and. 368 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:54.519 While she was in labor, you know, Josh finally showed 369 00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:58.279 up and he was had his laptop with him and 370 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.960 was sitting across the room on his laptop, and you know, 371 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:06.079 her parents are holding her hand, and finally Chuck goes 372 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.200 over and sort of, you know, grabs his arm and says, 373 00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:11.720 you've got to come, you know, speak to Susan. And 374 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.279 it's just one of the one of the strange things 375 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:19.920 I've i've ever heard of. Yeah, and she she wanted 376 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:25.319 more children, and and Brydon came along a couple of 377 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:30.559 years later, and she was hoping for more. There's a 378 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:35.519 slight chance that she'd been pregnant and in miscarriage just before, uh, 379 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:39.400 just before she disappeared. Her friend's thought that perhaps, uh, 380 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:43.200 that had happened, but she hadn't really uh uh shared 381 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:49.160 that news with anybody. And once people knew the kind 382 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.960 of father that Josh was, you know, people had doubts 383 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.839 about her doing this by herself, but she did want 384 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:56.480 more children. 385 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:03.200 Wh talk about December seventh, two thousand and nine. It's 386 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:08.720 a fresh snow outside of Salt Lake City. There's a storm. 387 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.359 You write that there's a three day winter storm yeah, 388 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:16.839 and Debbie called, well, is her daycare provider and her 389 00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:22.200 friend and her neighbor. So what happens that morning. 390 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.640 Well, the morning of December seventh, two thousand and nine, 391 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:32.680 which was Monday, Josh or Susan didn't show up at 392 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:37.960 Debbie's house with the boys. And Debbie was a licensed 393 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.200 childcare provider and you know, one of their closest friends. 394 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:44.240 And so she had six or eight other children and 395 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.599 she piled them in her van and drove to Susan 396 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.920 and Josh's house. She was you know, Susan was extremely responsible. 397 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.279 Susan would have called and checked in or let Debbie 398 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.839 know if their plans had changed. When she couldn't reach 399 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.279 them on either of their cell phones. She drove to 400 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.279 their house and there had been snow overnight and she 401 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.519