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Sign up now at 24 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:57.679 Chumba Casino dot com. 25 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:58.439 No prigs necessary. 26 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:00.439 Dao where if I lost the terms of sting. 27 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 28 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.879 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 29 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:22.239 written about him Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Dck. Every 30 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.239 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.079 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 33 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:48.840 Good Evening. Shortly after NYPD Chief of Detectives Thomas Burns 34 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.319 publicly criticized the London police for failing to capture Jack 35 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.480 the Ripper, he received a letter purportedly from Jack himself 36 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:01.519 saying New York was his next target. Not long after, 37 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:04.840 Burns was confronted by his own Ripper style murder case, 38 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.120 in the death of Kerry Brown, a k a. Old Shakespeare, 39 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:13.199 a colorful character who worked as a prostitute and had 40 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:18.000 a pension for quoting Shakespeare. Given the near hysteria surrounding 41 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:20.800 the vicious murder, soon after the Jack the Ripper murders 42 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:24.000 in London, people were worried that Jack might have actually 43 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:29.520 come to America. The Detective Bureau finally arrested Emir ben Ali, 44 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.719 an Algerian immigrant. The newspapers, however, immediately criticized Burns for 45 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:39.080 moving too quickly, suggesting that he had tried to save 46 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:43.360 face by pinning the crime on an easy target. When 47 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:45.919 the verdict of murder in the second degree was announced, 48 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:51.240 the papers erupted in anger and disbelief. With the aid 49 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.080 of the French Consulate, they embarked on a ten year 50 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:57.360 campaign to have ben Ali pardoned, and finally won his 51 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:02.439 release by producing new evidence. Immediately upon ben Elie's departure 52 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:08.879 for France, fresh evidence of his guilt surfaced. Was ben 53 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:13.599 Eli falsely convicted or falsely exonerated? And if he did 54 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:18.240 not commit the murder, then who did? Issues of false convictions, 55 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:24.439 fake news, illegal immigration, police corruption, and racial prejudice are 56 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:30.639 common tropes in today's news cycles. The Ripper demonstrates that 57 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:34.719 these are not simply matters of recent vintage, and seeks 58 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.199 to answer such questions in trying to determine whether and 59 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:43.680 in what way justice miscarried. The book that we're featuring 60 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:48.960 this evening is The East River Ripper, The mysterious eighteen 61 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:53.280 ninety one murder of Old Shakespeare. With my special guest 62 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:58.159 prosecutor and author George R. Veekal Senor. Welcome to the program, 63 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:02.759 and thank you very much for this interview. George Deacal, 64 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.199 thank you very much. This is an extraordinary book due 65 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.199 out the end of this month August thirty first, so 66 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:14.199 so glad to have you here before anybody else got 67 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:15.159 the chance to talk to you. 68 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:18.279 Well, thank you. You will be the first person that 69 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:19.959 has interviewed me about but. 70 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:27.079 Incredible. Before we start this extraordinary book, you talk about 71 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:32.160 your thirty years as a prosecutor. Give us your background 72 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:35.920 before we start talking about the East Ripper. 73 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:42.519 Well, I was. I'm a fifth generation North Meridian, lived 74 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.120 in a small town all my life, went to the 75 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:52.319 University of Florida, went to law school there, came back 76 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:56.720 to the hometown and started practicing law as a public defender. 77 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:01.519 Practiced public defender about two years, and then went with 78 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:07.120 his State Attorney's office for thirty years and prosecuted just 79 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.600 beout every kind of crime you can imagine, from criminal 80 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:16.920 mischief to capital murder. Wow, including let's stay gentleman that 81 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.000 you've mentioned in your lead in Ted Bondy. 82 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:28.399 Wow. Interesting, let's talk about in your introduction you talk 83 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:32.720 about Eugene Borschan's that that's a proper denunciation of his 84 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:37.079 nineteen thirty one book, Convicting the Innocent, An Account of 85 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:42.120 the wrongful conviction of a mere Ben Ali, tell us 86 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:46.519 about your how you came to be the author of 87 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.040 this book, and tell us a little bit more about 88 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.199 Eugene Borshin's book. And you say that very much that 89 00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:01.040 almost every treatment of this case has been Tookorshon's book 90 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.120 and accepted those findings at face value. So tell us 91 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:06.879 a little bit about Eugene Borschan's book. 92 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:09.600 Okay, Well, the first time I ever heard about his 93 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:15.800 book was in a voor dire of a jury back 94 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.600 in the early seventies, a defense attorney mentioned it, asking 95 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.079 the jurors ever read the book. Of course, he was 96 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.439 trying to poison the minds of the jury by putting 97 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:28.879 that sort of a name in front of him, and 98 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.079 because he got very angry with him, and I never 99 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:42.759 thought anything about reading the book. But until I started 100 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:50.600 to research his case. I came across the case researching 101 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.839 the last book that I wrote, which was a book 102 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.480 about another murder in New York City that was prosecuted 103 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.160 by the same man who prosecuted the the East River 104 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:05.399 Ripper case. And in research in that book, I read 105 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.160 his biography, and he had a chapter on his on 106 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:14.720 his murder, and uh, I got interested in it because 107 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:22.759 it it seemed like a a rather interesting case. And 108 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:27.439 there's some things he said in the in them in 109 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.920 the book about the case. It just didn't quite make sense. 110 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:31.399 Uh. 111 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:35.279 And I looked around and found some other references and 112 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:39.600 found Porcher's book and read it was just a chapter 113 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.480 in his book that was only a lead case. There 114 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.000 were a number of other Each chapter to vote was 115 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.120 devoted to another case about some some man who supposedly 116 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:51.120 convicted in innocent. 117 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:54.680 And then. 118 00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:02.399 I found the transcript of the trial and the transcript 119 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:10.079 of the of the inquest that was held before the trial. Ruh, 120 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:21.519 I could not reconcile Borchard's intimation that this particular prosecutor 121 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:27.600 was corrupt with my knowledge of the prosecutor. It just 122 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:30.600 didn't make sense to me that the prosecutor would knowingly 123 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:39.320 prosecute an innocent man. And I wanted to try to 124 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:46.320 resolve the you know, the friction between those two those twupositions. 125 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:54.919 Plus I had learned about the chief detectives Thomas Burns, 126 00:08:55.519 --> 00:09:03.360 who was a giant figure in the in the Ilden 127 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:10.279 Age New Yorker, a tremendously gifted detective, and H I 128 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:17.399 again had some difficulty seeing him framing an innocent man, 129 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:21.919 so I dug into it. 130 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:22.799 UH. 131 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.879 I read the trial transcript, I read the UH, all 132 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.960 of the newspaper accounts I could find. I read the UH, 133 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:34.639 the the the memoirs of of a couple of men 134 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:38.000 who were involved in the case. Other men who were 135 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:41.159 involved in the case. One of the doctors had written 136 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.480 UH rather extensively about it and trying to figure out, 137 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.840 you know, what happened. Was this man really innocent? Or 138 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:51.480 was he guilty? UH? 139 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:52.000 Was he. 140 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:55.200 Properly convicted? 141 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:55.720 UH? 142 00:09:55.879 --> 00:10:02.840 Or was he uh? Or was he railroaded? And at 143 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:08.360 the end of the book, I give three possible scenarios 144 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.440 as to what happened in the case. Because you know 145 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.200 this happened over one hundred years ago. You can't say 146 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.559 with certainty what happened. All you do is say what 147 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:25.679 probably happened, and the UH there were there are three 148 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:33.000 scenarios that fit the facts. I give the three scenarios UH, 149 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:36.399 and then I away which is those three I think 150 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:40.759 is most likely? And you know, if if a reader 151 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:43.919 wants to choose one of the other two scenarios. Uh, 152 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:46.759 they're welcome to do it, won't hurt my feelings at all. 153 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:48.080 Yeah. 154 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:53.200 But but the I think that one of those three 155 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:58.519 is what happened, and a lot of the things that 156 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:09.759 the traditional story about the case say don't are untrue 157 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:16.720 under any of those three scenarios. Under no scenario did 158 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:25.799 the police try to frame Ventalle. Under no scenario was 159 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:34.840 there any prosecutorial misconduct to amount to to intentionally framing 160 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:40.720 the man, you know, if if he if he was innocent. 161 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:46.240 Under one scenario, he got himself convicted by lying like 162 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.279 a cheap clock. Under another scenario, uh, he got himself 163 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:57.000 convicted because a man not affiliated with the police withheld 164 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:02.200 crucial evidence of his innocence for in years and then 165 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:03.840 didn't reveal it until it. 166 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:04.200 Was his. 167 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.519 It was to his advantage to do it. And under 168 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.799 the third area, he's guilty. 169 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:22.879 Let's start with the connection that interested the press, frightened 170 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:28.759 the populace, and would interest every true crime reader obviously, 171 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.159 the connection to Jack the Ripper. So in your book 172 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:35.840 you talk about August thirty first, eighteen eighty eight, Marianne Nichols, 173 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:41.840 London's Whitechapel District. People here hurt her cries, but no 174 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.519 one came to her, aid her throat was cut, nearly 175 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.960 severing her head, and he repeatedly slashed her Torso, so 176 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.879 you continue to chronicle the Emma Ellis Smith died on 177 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:59.600 April fourth, eighteen eighty eight. Later, Martha Turner suffered thirty 178 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:03.799 nine wounds. So you go through that Jack the Rippers, 179 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.879 a fault of women in Whitechapel, and the horror and 180 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.080 all of the story that that emanated from the newspaper 181 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.600 frenzy as a result. But but tell us about the 182 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:21.399 connection why this bill Jack the Rippers connected to this story? 183 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:32.879 Okay, Well, a tremendous amount of of uproar in London. 184 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.960 Uh over these over these killings. 185 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.240 H and. 186 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:45.840 Anybody who got any prostitute who got stabbed with a 187 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:51.200 knife after the first one of these murders was immediately 188 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.919 jack the Ripper was the person who did it. And 189 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:58.879 the twelve I think murders that I chronicled in the 190 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:05.879 first chapter only five or reliably attributed to Jackie Ripper. 191 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.440 But at that time, right everybody thought that Jackie Ripper 192 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:15.480 did all of them. And uh so, uh, I wrote 193 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:19.000 I wrote that chapter f through the eyes of someone 194 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.720 in the nineteenth century, not not a a Jack the 195 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:24.840 Ripper ologist looking back on it as to as to 196 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.320 what it was called JACKI Ripper. Uh, just a kind 197 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:32.960 of sidelight on uh on the story. But anyhow, Thomas 198 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.320 Burns was uh. He was world renowned as uh as 199 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.120 one of the greatest to take ers of the age. 200 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.320 And he said some rather unkind things about. 201 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.200 Uh the the. 202 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:52.200 Uh London police's ability to uh to make an arrest, 203 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:59.840 and uh they got published in the London papers. And 204 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.240 and then we've got this letter supposedly from Jackie Rippers 205 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:05.600 and batten down the hatches here I come. 206 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:07.120 Uh. 207 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:13.440 And not long after that a prostitute in the slums, 208 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:17.080 just like White Chapel was a slum area, and there 209 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.399 were all prostitutes that were killed by Jack the Ripper. 210 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:25.679 And a prostitute in the slum is butchered uh in 211 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:35.000 very much the same fashion as the traditional typical Jack 212 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:41.320 the Ripper murders. She is uh, her her genital area 213 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:47.279 is is butchered, her stomach is rod ripped open, her 214 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:56.120 or her and her intestines are pulled out. The only 215 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:02.600 difference between her death and the death of most of 216 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.559 the Jack the Ripper victims. Is that Jack the Ripper 217 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:12.679 victims had their throats cut and the New York City victim, 218 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:21.000 Kerry Brown was strangled. So you know, the first first 219 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.200 people coming in and looking at the scene, the first 220 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.080 thought that came to their mind was Jack the Ripper, 221 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:32.320 And so they went round and round all kinds of 222 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:37.480 speculation in the press that was this Jack the Ripper. 223 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:42.840 Is Jack the Ripper come And right after the conviction 224 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:51.960 of of a Lee, the Burns hinted that he had 225 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.120 evidence that ben a Lee was in London during the 226 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:02.080 time that the Ripper murders were being committed over there, right, 227 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:11.720 So you know, uh not doubt very seriously whether being 228 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.759 a lead with Jack the Ripper. Uh not doubt very 229 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.480 seriously that Jack the Ripper came to the United States 230 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:21.680 and committed to murders just to rub Thomas Burns his 231 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:28.319 nose in uh in the uh uh bragging that he 232 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.599 had done about how the net or police would have 233 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:31.720 called the Ripper. 234 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:40.480 So you have you have the press in London goating 235 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.599 over the idea that this Burns who had from New 236 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:47.519 York City, this sophisticated guy that would would tell them 237 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.880 and that's what he wrote that this is the techniques 238 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.759 that he would use to employ to try to find 239 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.960 Jack the Ripper. They were, you say, they were delighted 240 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.039 that Burns now had his own ripper on his own 241 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:04.119 hands and now had the pressure to make an arrest. 242 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:08.799 Well, it wasn't so much the the London press as 243 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:09.839 the London police. 244 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:11.640 Mm hmm. 245 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:23.119 They were. They were quite pleased that Burns was in 246 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.720 a position where he could no longer talk about them 247 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:32.119 and had his own ripper case to have to solve. 248 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.960 You know, the the traditional story was that Burns said 249 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.000 he'd have if Jack the Ripper came to New York City, 250 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:47.160 he'd have he'd have the Jack in jail within either 251 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:51.559 twenty four, either forty eight or thirty six hours, depending 252 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.640 on depending on on who on the which version of 253 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:01.240 the story you heard, and in actuality, he had bin 254 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.720 a Lee if Beinalley was the actual killer, had him 255 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:09.000 in jailed within twelve hours. So if he may, if 256 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:11.759 Burns made the boast, which he says he never did, 257 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:17.599 and if Beneley was murder, he beat his post a 258 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.680 good twelve to thirty six hours. 259 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:27.240 You have the extraordinary status that the media had at 260 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:32.440 that time in London, Jack the Ripper invigorated the newspaper business, 261 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.559 and so it was they had never seen anything like this, 262 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:39.839 and so this was truly really good for the newspaper 263 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.400 business in London, and so in New York when they 264 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:45.519 got these I am right here and I expect to 265 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:50.079 kill somebody by Thursday. So go get ready for me 266 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.559 with your pistols. But I have a knife and has 267 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.319 done more than your pistols. Next thing you'll hear of 268 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.960 some women dead yours, truly, Jack the Ripper. And then 269 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.119 you talk about the New York Harold another note in 270 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.480 and written in red ink, and he said he had 271 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:10.400 just written, doctor of Detective Burns that I'm in America. 272 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.319 So this was a frenzy. This was a This was 273 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.680 a frenzy for the media having this kind of crime, 274 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:23.279 having these kinds of characters involved. Tell us about what 275 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:28.400 Burns' response is now as an investigator in this case. 276 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:33.599 Burns was extremely closed my mouth right at the beginning, 277 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.160 and he probably should have been even more closed mouth 278 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:44.279 than he actually was. There's all kinds of confusion, is 279 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.480 there always is at the outset of any kind of 280 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:53.920 an investigation. Library'st I've been in a number of similar 281 00:20:53.960 --> 00:21:01.039 type investigations that you know, people running around like chickens 282 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:04.119 with a head chopped off. The information is coming in. 283 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:06.720 It may be true, it may not be true. It 284 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:11.119 gets spread around, and Burne says some things to the 285 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:16.920 to the press that didn't pan out. He made some 286 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:23.160 informations to the press that he knew who the murderer 287 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:26.319 was and had to and all I had. The only 288 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.680 thing he had to do was find him. And the 289 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.400 murderer was a man that they call Frenchie number two, 290 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:42.319 and ben A Lee went by the went by the 291 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.200 nickname of Frenchie because Algeria at that time was a 292 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:51.640 possession of France, and all Algerians were subjects of France, 293 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.519 and French had actually served as French soldier during the 294 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:01.039 Franco Prussian War. So you know, that's how you got 295 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:07.559 the name Frenchie. So Burne just saying that there's Frenchy 296 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.799 number one, uh and Frenchy number two. French number one 297 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.640 was simply in the hotel across the hall from where 298 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:19.839 the murder occurred, and Frenchie number two was in the 299 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:24.599 hotel room with carry brown murderinger. 300 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.160 And they. 301 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.240 Searched for Frenchie number two. He finally found FRENCHI number 302 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:38.000 two and French number two had at an ironclad alibi 303 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:50.680 as oops. And then instead of you know, saying, telling 304 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:52.599 the press put out the fire and call on the nobs, 305 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.200 we're not we're not interested in French number two anymore, 306 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:57.680 he didn't say anything because that's kind of egg on 307 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:02.839 his face. And then he's Frenchy number one and this, 308 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:09.599 you know, this kind of you know, raises it raises 309 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.119 the antennas. People say, Hey, what's going on here? 310 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.599 Uh? Is is he. 311 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:20.519 Being shooting straight with us? Or is he dealing off 312 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.240 the bottom of the deck. Uh, there's something that right here. 313 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:28.880 So this roused the suspicion of the press. 314 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.599 And the. 315 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:43.640 They became quite confrontational with him after that. Say that 316 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:48.119 kind of started the sourness between him and the press. 317 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:55.559 Can can you explain for us the what we haven't 318 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.240 talked about is anything about who this Carry Brown was. 319 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:02.799 You give this background that once upon a time she 320 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.200 was doing quite well, she ruined her life with alcohol. 321 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.720 Tell us a little bit about Carrie Brown, but also 322 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:16.559 this frenchie one, Frenchy two and this notorious hotel that 323 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.720 you say that this was not the only homicide, and 324 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:22.319 in fact, there'd been an homicide in this room before. 325 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.119 It was called the Rains Hotel, so it was the 326 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:28.440 kind of hotel you write that you could get a 327 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.160 drink in the basement and then go upstairs with a 328 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.599 lady of the evening. So that's the kind of tell 329 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.839 it was, So first about this. Tell us first about 330 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.799 the rooms thirty one and thirty three in their significance, 331 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:46.720 and then also we didn't mention an extraordinary thing was 332 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.960 a symbol was carved on one buttox and her genitals 333 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.960 were slashed. So tell us about the room scenario, and 334 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:01.000 then more about the blood and the blood that was 335 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.039 found in the condition of carry Brown. 336 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:12.359 Okay, Well, first off, Kerry Brown was a very respectable 337 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.839 woman at one point in her life, a mother, the 338 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:22.480 wife of a sea captain, and she took to drink 339 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:28.839 and basically ruined her life. Her husband was actually a 340 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:36.759 captain of a ship in the Union Navy during the 341 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:42.119 Civil War, but he finally got fed up with her, 342 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.599 divorced her, and she wound up moving to New York 343 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:54.400 worked for a while as an actress, and the supposition 344 00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:57.039 is that's where she picked up all her lines from Shakespeare. 345 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:04.240 And finally the drink got there so bad that that 346 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:06.680 the only way she could make a living was as 347 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:16.519 a prostitute. The one place that she frequented to uh 348 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:22.079 work as a prostitute was this East River Hotel also 349 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.519 known as a Fourth Ward Hotel, also known as the 350 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:32.839 House of All Drinks. And on the first floor was 351 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.880 a bar, and in the bar was where the men 352 00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:40.960 and the women would meet up. They would drink, they 353 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:51.960 would uh agree on services to be rendered, and then 354 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.000 they would retire to the upstairs. It was a five 355 00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:02.000 story hotel, and the way they've numbered the way they 356 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.079 number of stories back in the back in the eighteen nineties, 357 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:07.799 the first there was ground floor, first, second, third, and 358 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.440 fourth floor, So the fourth floor is what we'd actually 359 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.799 called the fifth floor. But anyhow, up on the top 360 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:21.640 floor was where Carrie Brown went with her John on 361 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:34.759 the night of her murder. They met she they bought 362 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:41.839 a bucket of beer for a nickel to go up 363 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.640 the stairs or one stairwell going up to the to 364 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:50.279 the top floor, and up the stairs down the hall. 365 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:52.759 At the end of the hall was room thirty three, 366 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:59.240 and it was the best room, probably the best room 367 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:01.599 in the in the the house because it had two windows. 368 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:06.400 It was a corner corner house. They retired into that 369 00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:13.000 room and later that night Ben a Lee came in 370 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:18.160 and he rented room thirty three, which was right across 371 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:25.000 the hall. Carrie and her John were in room thirty one, 372 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.559 and Ben a Lee was in room thirty three, which 373 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:35.279 was right right across the call. Heady cornered across the hall. Okay. 374 00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:40.920 At some point during the night, then John left, and 375 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:46.880 then early that morning Ben a Lee left and the 376 00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:52.119 janitor saw him leaving, and nobody saw that John leave 377 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:57.440 when ben and Lee left. The janitor saw him leaving 378 00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.279 and he said he looked like he was sneaking out. 379 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:07.240 And then when the maid went up to uh uh 380 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.839 check on the on the rooms, make sure everybody was out, 381 00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:18.480 she found the body, I say the maid. I forget 382 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.240 whether it was the maid or the janitor that found 383 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:27.640 a body. But the room, the door was locked, had 384 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:36.519 to be unlocked, and uh so the killer had left 385 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.279 the room, locked the door, and the key was gone. 386 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.039 They had to get the master key to go in. 387 00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:50.680 Mm hmm. You also talk about tell us what was 388 00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:52.359 carved on her buttocks. 389 00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.359 There was a cross carved on her on her on 390 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:04.279 her buck. She was naked uh uh, sprawled under the 391 00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:09.640 cover uh bedclothes in her uh uh her shift we'd 392 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:17.079 been wrapped around her head and uh the pretty graphic 393 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:22.200 description from the uh autopsy report of the uh the carving, 394 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:27.400 the depth of the carving, and uh and whatnot and 395 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.680 uh the slashes to her vaginal area and her uh 396 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:43.480 and her uh uh uh deep ragged, lengthy slashes and 397 00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:47.880 s part of her intestines small intestines had been taken 398 00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:53.319 out and placed between her legs. And there was a 399 00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.680 knife found, a bloody knife found in the bed beside her. 400 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.279 Yeah, let's use as an opportunity to stop, just for 401 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.359