WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:04.759 So, mister Vickers really appreciate your patients with us and 2 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:07.839 your being gracious with your time. We'll jump right into 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:09.919 it here. Could you tell us a little bit about 4 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.199 your origin story, sort of about how you grew up 5 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:14.880 and how that took you and led you towards governmental service. 6 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.559 Sure. So I grew up in southern California and went 7 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:23.719 to Hollywood High School and had dreams of being a 8 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:30.120 professional baseball player, football player, or quarterback. And my passions 9 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.240 were much greater than my abilities. So as I completed 10 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:37.039 high school, I started thinking about what else I wanted 11 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:40.280 to do. And as it turned out, a high school 12 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:43.759 teacher gave me a copy of the New York Times 13 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:46.439 or put it in front of my desk when I 14 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:48.679 was in the school library, and it had an article 15 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:53.240 about CIA's big paramilitary operation during the Vietnam War and 16 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.600 Laos supporting the Homong tribesmen and said, you might be 17 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.399 interested in this, and you know, it was about secret armies. 18 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:02.079 It's the first I had heard of it, and I thought, yeah, 19 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:03.640 you know, I think I might want to be a 20 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.000 CI officer. And so that kind of planted the seed, 21 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:09.480 and then I thought the best path for doing that 22 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:12.079 was to go into the Special Forces, which I did 23 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:16.200 after a couple of years of college and then became 24 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:20.599 an officer and then actually then became a CIA operations officer. 25 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.719 So tell us about landing in tenth Special Forces Group, 26 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:26.920 and I mean this is during the Cold War, of course, 27 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:29.920 what was tenth Group like at that time? What was 28 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:32.319 your initial roles and duty positions? 29 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:38.400 Yeah, So I completed the Special Forces Qualification course as 30 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:43.040 a weapons sergeant in May nineteen seventy four and then 31 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:47.719 was assigned to the tenth Group, which had two battalions 32 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:52.760 at Fort Devons, Massachusetts time. And you know, as you know, 33 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:57.079 special Forces groups are oriented toward different regions of the world. 34 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:04.000 And after Vietna the number of groups collapsed down to three. 35 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:08.400 But the tenth Group had Europe and the Soviet Bloc, 36 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:13.599 and basically the operational detachments were divided. Some of them 37 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:18.360 would go had their operational areas were Eastern Europe and 38 00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:21.360 the Soviet Union, and that's the part I was in. 39 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:25.520 So I had Russian and Czech and then others had 40 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:29.319 the stay behind mission if the Soviets overran Germany or 41 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.360 Scandinavia or others. And so they learned Norwegian and German 42 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:36.800 and French and Danish and that sort of thing. And 43 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.840 the group was really a fantastic learning experience. You know, 44 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:46.560 I was kind of the youngest guy on the team. 45 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.800 Most of my teammates were Vietnam veterans. Some had participated 46 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:56.759 in you know, very sensitive reconnaissance operations in Laos and 47 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:02.479 North Vietnam with MACV you know, studies and observation groups 48 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:06.639 that were doing these dangerous special reconnaissance missions. And then 49 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:11.400 we also had a number of Eastern European emigrats, you know, 50 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:15.159 who were born in Czechoslovakia or elsewhere. One of my 51 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:21.879 group commanders was born in Georgia and another Battanan commander 52 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:26.039 was born in Czechoslovakia, and so they were a great 53 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:29.080 source of knowledge about, you know, if we actually had 54 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:33.120 to deploy into our unconventional warfare operational areas, what it 55 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.599 would be like to live there and everything else. So 56 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:41.319 it was a tremendous learning experience for me, and you know, 57 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:44.719 they sent me to a lot of training then, you know, 58 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:47.520 in the post Vietnam era, we didn't have a lot 59 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:53.759 of operations, and so it was mostly a great deal 60 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:56.680 of training till till the nineteen eighties, we did have one. 61 00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:59.360 You know, our job was mainly to prepare for World 62 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:06.960 War three, and our job was either to do special 63 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:10.639 reconnaissance behind enemy lines or direct action and then if 64 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:15.240 there was a resistance movement, unconventional warfare. And one special 65 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:19.839 mission we had a few of us in the group 66 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:24.240 was to train with very small nuclear weapons, man portable 67 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.560 nuclear weapons to actually try to stop the Soviet advances, 68 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:33.079 you know, by interdicting the second Echelon. Forces had one 69 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.639 potential combat deployment to Angola during that period. Angola had 70 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.800 gone into a civil war, but it was aborted at 71 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:46.279 the last minute, and the president decided to go to 72 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:52.120 the covert action route rather than overt military or special operations. Use. 73 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:55.199 Would you like to talk a little bit about one 74 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:57.439 thing I thought was unique and interesting about your book 75 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.759 was we talked about getting sent to Berlin to do 76 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.040 some clandestine tradecraft training. 77 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.079 Yeah. So the tenth Group in those days, you know, 78 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:11.040 I mentioned two battalions in the group headquarters at Fort Devons. 79 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.680 There was a battalion forward at bod Toltzen Bavaria. I 80 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.000 later served in that unit, and then there was essentially 81 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.439 a company size force in civilian clothes that was in 82 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:27.399 Berlin called Detachment A, changed its name in the nineteen 83 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.399 eighties to something else, but they had a stay behind mission, 84 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:35.879 you know, if the Soviets overran Berlin and then also 85 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:41.319 potentially to go out into East Germany, you know, given 86 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.120 the location of Berlin in the event of war, and 87 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:49.360 so one of the training episodes I had was to 88 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:53.839 go serve with them and do essentially urban unconventional warfare. 89 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.879 You know, how we would sabotage facilities and how we 90 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:01.759 would clandestinely communicate so we couldn't be found out by 91 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:04.959 the secret police, and so a lot of a lot 92 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:06.600 of denied area trade crafts. 93 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:09.639 And then you touched upon it the training with the 94 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.639 special atomic demolition munition. Yeah, you tell us a little 95 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:15.920 bit more about what that entailed. 96 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:22.759 Yeah, So from the early I guess the late nineteen 97 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:27.199 sixties and early nineteen in nineteen seventies up until the 98 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:33.480 mid nineteen eighties, special operations forces mainly seals and Green Berets, 99 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.199 a select portion of them were given this mission to 100 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:42.519 train to place, to arm and place this device. And 101 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.480 you know, so with all nuclear weapons, you have personal 102 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.639 reliability programs. You know, you have to do extra vetting 103 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:55.480 of the people selected for this and pretty intensive training. 104 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.160 You know, it's really a no fail mission, so you'd 105 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:05.160 have these operational readiness evaluations by nuclear inspectors to make 106 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.839 sure you knew how to do everything, and the command 107 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:13.759 and control for those things obviously directed from very on 108 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.800 high so there's communications procedures you have to learn, and 109 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:22.600 so it's pretty intensive training. And as I said, the 110 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:27.920 standards were very high for that, and you know, it 111 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:34.879 was probably considered one of the most risky missions, and 112 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:37.680 I mean they were all risky in those days if 113 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:42.079 general war broke out, but this thing in particular to 114 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.959 have to you know, emplace it and had a timer 115 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:48.600 on it that you know, you could arm, and then 116 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:51.240 you'd have to get in an overwatch position to maintain 117 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:53.920 custody of it. So you know, the kind of the 118 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:56.720 gallows humor among those trained in it was as soon 119 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.079 as you'd you know, touch that dial, the thing would 120 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:03.720 enough was in place that would detonate, and but yeah, 121 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.199 it was it was a very interesting experience. And then 122 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.040 you know, learning how to parachute with it, either freefall 123 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:15.120 or static line, and you could also scuba with it too, 124 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:18.720 so that's hence the Seals or Special Forces scuba teams. 125 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.319 I've actually been doing a lot of research on the 126 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.680 green Light Teams recently, and I think that it's it's 127 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.800 easy for us today to look back on it as 128 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:31.360 a sort of strange Doctor Strangelove sort of esque mission. 129 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.519 But what I'm struck by all the people. 130 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.200 I've talked to is like, how deadly serious all of 131 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.320 you guys were about this mission and completely ready to 132 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:41.039 execute it if they were called upon. 133 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:46.080 Yeah. Well, I mean, so some context. You know, beginning 134 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.960 in the nineteen fifties, you know, Soviet has had numerical 135 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:53.360 superiority in Europe, and so we kind of went the 136 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:58.080 route in the Eisenhower administration and through the sixties and 137 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:02.480 seventies to make up for that numerical inferiority by having 138 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:08.159 lots of tactical nuclear weapons, so artillery shills, minds, you know, 139 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.799 things you can drop from air bombs from aircraft. And 140 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.559 then this was just part of that family. You know 141 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:17.519 that this was the Special Forces and seal role, you know, 142 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.559 to go behind enemy lines with a small nuclear weapon, 143 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:22.480 but you know, it's part of a part of a 144 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:27.240 larger family, and it was a very very serious mission. 145 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.559 So as a as you know, the kid, the teenager 146 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.679 that read the New York Times article about Special Ops 147 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:36.799 and LAOS, I mean, was this will all of this 148 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:38.080 sounds like a dream come true? 149 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:44.720 Yeah? I had to pinch myself. I was really you know, 150 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:48.879 you know, the path actually worked out in terms of 151 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.759 you know, I I originally thought I would go into 152 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:57.600 Special Forces for maybe you know, five years or something 153 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:00.279 and then go to CIA, and I decided to become 154 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.840 an officer and ended up staying for ten before I 155 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:07.519 went to CIA. You know, so I really loved it. 156 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:09.840 It was just just a great experience. 157 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.759 So you went to officer candidate school and then you 158 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.600 got to do a pretty big venue change from Germany 159 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.519 and tenth Group to third Battalion, seventh Group that was 160 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.759 down at Fort Goolik, Panama, Right. 161 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:25.600 That's right. Yeah, I was on the Atlantic side of 162 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:28.279 the Canal zone rather than the Pacific side, so most 163 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.200 of the forces in Panama were over on the Pacific side, 164 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.000 but there was an infantry battalion and a Special Forces 165 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:38.639 battalion on the Atlantic. And you know the reason I 166 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.840 chose that. When I graduated from OCS, we didn't have 167 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:45.039 an SF branch in those days. And so I was 168 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.960 an infantry officer, went to Infantry officer training, and the 169 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.840 assignments officer came down to our class as we were 170 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.440 getting our assignments and said, how would you like to 171 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:59.240 go right back to special Forces and be a detachment 172 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:02.279 commander because you don't need to be a platoon leader 173 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.279 given your enlisted experience, you could go right into company command. 174 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:08.639 And I thought, well, great, so I get a captain's 175 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.759 job as a lieutenant, and then I have a captain's 176 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:15.480 job as a captain. And you know, there were three 177 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.080 assignments offered, the tenth Group, the fifth Group, and third 178 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.519 of the seventh and it was very tempted to go 179 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.279 back to the tenth group. My former battalion commander had 180 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:29.440 become the group commander and he just got the Medal 181 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:36.799 of Honor award in Paris Davis this year. But you know, 182 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.440 the insurgencies were really heating up in Central America. That 183 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:42.720 was the big focus. You know, had a a communist 184 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.399 insurgency and I'll solve it or and then the Sandinistas 185 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:51.360 had taken over in Nicaragua. And you know, it's always 186 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.799 good to kind of follow the sound of guns, you know, 187 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.039 to go where the action is, and so I learned 188 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:01.159 Spanish and ended up in third Battalion, seventh Group. And 189 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:05.320 as it turned out, I was getting you know, after 190 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.879 the Iran rescue attempt and the taking of our should 191 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.200 say it the other way, the taking of our hostages 192 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.600 in Tehran and then the Iran rescue attempt, we became 193 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.559 very concerned about other high threat embassies and so I 194 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.679 was given essentially a troop command of two operational detachments 195 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.000 that would go around to high threat embassies in Latin America, 196 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.840 mainly Central America, but Colombia and others too, to make 197 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:34.320 sure that if we needed to do a rescue, you know, 198 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.799 our special mission forces that they had the blueprints and 199 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.360 you know, knew where the cameras were and you know 200 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:44.799 all the things you would need to do to rescue 201 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.879 like that. So you know, it caused me to interact 202 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.919 a lot with the State Department and with CIA, you know, 203 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:54.080 across the region, and again a great learning experience. 204 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:57.200 I thought it was really cool as I was reading 205 00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:59.840 the book this I think you said it was the 206 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:04.480 mission and then became the RST Mission. This this, this 207 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.320 is that sort of nascent what we would call today, 208 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.879 we advanced force operations is probably the term that you 209 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.759 probably use nowadays. As I was reading the book, I 210 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.440 read about it this operation that you guys got sent 211 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:20.320 down to Honduras, and I was like, oh, I remember 212 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:22.159 hearing about this years and years ago, but I had 213 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.679 no idea it was you. Could you explain a little 214 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:26.879 bit more about like what the mission entailed and how 215 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.039 you guys went over to sort of prepare the environment? 216 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:35.879 Sure, so you know, the normal mission was, you know, 217 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:40.480 intelligence collection, so you know, visiting these embassies and making 218 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:44.519 sure we had all the information we would need for 219 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:49.799 a rescue beforehand. And then if there was an actual 220 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:54.080 terrorist incident, then a small portion of my team would 221 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.759 deploy to be the first on site where we'd been 222 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:02.679 to this country several times, and start preparing the environment 223 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:05.799 for the rescue force that would come in, but also 224 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:10.440 provide special operations advice to the ambassador and the country team, 225 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:16.320 Chief of station, ambassador, etc. And so in late April 226 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:24.360 nineteen eighty two, a Honduras Honduran terrorist group supported by 227 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:30.879 Cuba hijacked an airline or a Dash seven airliner a 228 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:36.600 prop plane in Togusaglfa Airport, the capital of Honduras with 229 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:41.759 fifty eight hostages on board, and ten of whom were Americans. 230 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.159 And so we got deployed right away by Southcomb to 231 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:50.799 the embassy to meet with the ambassador, who I served 232 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.159 with a lot of years and govern he ended up 233 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:59.399 becoming ambassador multiple places, John Negroponte, and then Deputy Secretary 234 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:05.320 of State, and about military options, including bringing in some 235 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.399 of our special mission forces to be in a position 236 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:12.360 to do a rescue. And so they came in and 237 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:17.799 there was a three day standoff with this terrorist group 238 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:22.799 with the hostages. I was up for three nights essentially, 239 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.919 you know, with my little team, my four man team 240 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:30.440 doing surveillance around the airfield and with our Army Special 241 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:37.879 Operations counterparts, and we had one interesting incident. The terrorists 242 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:43.440 had a homemade improvised explosive device with nitro glycerin on 243 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:47.240 the plane, and you know, the airplane was getting really 244 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:53.399 hot and nitro glycerin can become unstable when it gets 245 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:57.120 hot like that. So the terrorists actually asked for assistance 246 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:00.320 in that regard and we had to scramble to how 247 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.720 they would diffuse the bomb. And it turned out, you know, 248 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:05.440 Kitty Litter was a pretty good field expedient to do, 249 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.720 so we raced out to Degusigalpa to procure some and 250 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:13.559 that that kind of did the trick, and some of 251 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:17.360 the hostages were able to escape from the plane on 252 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:23.440 the third day and the gunfire, but fortunately they were 253 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:26.639 only injured from the fall, not from the terir of shots. 254 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.759 And then the terrorists decided to give up the ghost 255 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:33.799 after three days for safe passage to Cuba, and so 256 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.120 that was incident number one. And then four months later, 257 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:42.440 a similar terrorist group took one hundred and nine hostages 258 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.879 in San Pedro Sula town in the north of Hunduras, 259 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.919 including three government ministers. So we did it all over 260 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.519 again and went there and did you know, ten day 261 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.559 siege and it ended the same way with the negotiations. 262 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.840 And also showed the capabilities of you know that the 263 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.080 concept worked as far as the reconnaissance. 264 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.720 Yes, yes, So it was considered a model for the 265 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.519 combat for other combatant commands to then follow south COM's 266 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.279 lead on having this kind of capability, and that eventually 267 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:19.240 led to more special operations, intelligence units and then the rsts. 268 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.640 As you mentioned when when you guys were developing this capability, 269 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.240 you know, if you're you're developing capability. There's not necessarily 270 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.400 groundwork that's been laid before, you know, laid before. How 271 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.799 how did you guys go about that process? 272 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.519 Yeah, so it was a you know, kind of a 273 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:37.559 one of a kind unit at the time, made out 274 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:41.240 of two O das and people were selected for their 275 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:46.119 fluency and you know, civilian clothes and long hair, selected 276 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:50.799 for their fluency in Spanish and their intelligence tradecraft in 277 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:58.519 addition to other special operations skills and uh and then 278 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.640 you know, we had to have training. We were kind 279 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:06.039 of ahead of our time on satellite communications, so we 280 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:14.200 had really reliable communications, some technical surveillance devices and stuff 281 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.759 that weren't organic to the to the Special Forces Battalion 282 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.279 that we had to procure commercially and learn how to use. 283 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.160 And so we were really building this from the ground up, 284 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.880 including you know, learning how to put these target folders together, 285 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.720 of what exactly was needed and how to present it 286 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.119 to the operators, you know, who would do the rescue 287 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.400 and so you needed to know a lot about close 288 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.160 quarter battle and sniping and lots of other things. So 289 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:44.160 right before I had that command, for a few months, 290 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.319 I had command of a sniper team which also was useful, 291 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:53.720 you know, personal preparation before I took this counter terrorism 292 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:54.720 intelligence mission. 293 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.359 And then let's talk a little bit of about how 294 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.319 you made that transition from Special Forces to the CIA, 295 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:09.160 Like how did that take place for you? 296 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:12.119 You know? So my original goal was to serve in 297 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:15.920 the Special Forces and learn more languages and get competent 298 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:19.079 in all these disciplines and then go to CIA. And 299 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:21.519 then I thought, well, maybe I'll make the Army a career. 300 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.480 And you know, I went to OCS and had this command, 301 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.519 but you know, as I was wrestling with it, I thought, Okay, 302 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.960 I've had this great experience as a lieutenant and captain 303 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:38.119 commanding this troop and participating in real operations, you know, 304 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.519 but my next assignment would be infantry company command and 305 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:45.119 a peacetime army and I thought I wanted to join 306 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.000 more of the Cold War fight. You I saw what 307 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:51.640 was going on in Central America and what CIA was doing, 308 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.440 and I thought, potentially I could contribute more if I 309 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.440 went to CIA. And so I applied for a career 310 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:06.039 training program and you know, got accepted and enjoined the agency. 311 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.000 And the way I read it in the book, if I, 312 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.839 if I understood correctly, you had some adventures before you 313 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:16.839 even got trained as a CIA officer. 314 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.599 Yeah, so the in my day, the career training program 315 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:27.920 for operations officers, we had a ten week course, you know, 316 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.119 kind of introduction to CIA and the intelligence community, all 317 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.240 the different directorates and learned how to write reports and 318 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.920 do analysis and some basic trade craft, and learned about 319 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.160 our satellites and you know, the science and technology side 320 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.759 and et cetera. Had senior case officers come in and 321 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:51.079 talk to us about agents they recruited and including Russians 322 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.640 that were handled in Moscow, and you know, so it 323 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.720 was pretty good training. And then you typically do two 324 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:03.480 three month assignments on operational desk to learn operations more, 325 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.400 and then you would go to the operations course at 326 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:11.000 what we call the farm, a special facility. And then 327 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.400 in those days we also had a twelve week paramilitary 328 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:22.079 operations course called Special Operations Training. And during my first 329 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:28.599 assignment in Latin America, Division I was selected for this 330 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:37.319 because there was a coup in Suriname and a former 331 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:43.319 Dutch colony in northern Tip of South America and we 332 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:49.599 had assets in prison and the branch chief wanted to 333 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.839 do a jail break essentially and thought I had the 334 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:56.039 right skills to help plan that with the assets and stuff, 335 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.400 and so that was kind of my introduction to CI 336 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.440 and then LO and will Hold. A crisis occurred in 337 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.880 Grenada as I was some weeks into this assignment working 338 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.599 on this jail break plan, and you know, we had 339 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:17.440 six hundred medical students attending training in Grenada, American medical students, 340 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.440 and you know, the situation deteriorated. The coup leaders killed, 341 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:28.640 the president of the country and some others, and President 342 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.240 Reagan made the decision over a weekend to do the 343 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.079 invasion of Grenada. It was combination of Special Operations Forces 344 00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:40.240 and Marines. And I was before I had even completed 345 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.400 my CIA operational training. I was called into headquarters and 346 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.759 said by the who was going to become the chief 347 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.839 of station, a man named Bill Rooney, very distinguished career 348 00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:54.440 in CIA, said you're going to Grenada with me and 349 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.759 a communicator and we were going in with the Special 350 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:02.119 Operations Forces in the main effort in the south and uh. 351 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.160 And I didn't know that at the time. I was 352 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.920 just told to come into headquarters and pack for two 353 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.480 weeks on a Sunday, and so I thought I was 354 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.119 going to be going to one of the bases, uh 355 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:16.279 supporting the operations, and so I packed a bunch of suits. 356 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.160 And as soon as I got in and I was 357 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.559 told I was going into combat, you know, I was 358 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:24.680 glad I had a few casual clothes in my luggage. 359 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.000 You know. So we got weapons, we got a lot 360 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.920 of cash so we could uh pay assets and stuff. 361 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.119 And the Satcom radio got a briefing and had an 362 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.039 airplane take us to a staging base and then went 363 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.519 in with the invading forces. And so I went into 364 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:44.519 combat with a Ralph Lauren polo shirt, some linen pants 365 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.799 and some loafers and a weapon and h a big 366 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:50.799 bag of cash and set coom. Uh. You know you 367 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:53.359 got a hand to the CIA. They go to Warren style. 368 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:55.079 You know, this is not quite how we did it. 369 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:56.559 The special courses. 370 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:01.279 And the military elements. Lincoln out probably lets you get 371 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.279 c I A I don't know, right right. 372 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.759 Right yeah, and uh, and so you know our task 373 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:11.960 was to establish a station and then you know, bring 374 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:17.680 in people to interrogate Cuban prisoners and others, and then 375 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:21.519 you know, we had some other things to do. That 376 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:27.920 led to my first combat experience in Grenada. Uh, looking 377 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:31.880 at an arms cash and in the very very forward 378 00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:36.359 lines where there was still a lot of combat, and 379 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:39.039 it was a company of the eighty second that we 380 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:42.039 were actually visiting at the time, and uh, you know, 381 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.200 lo and behold. As soon as we got there, uh, 382 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:50.160 Cubans attacked the position. And you know, all we had 383 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:52.960 at the time were browning high power pistols. And so 384 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.759 I thought about it for you know, as we're faced 385 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:56.759 down in the dirt, I thought about it for a 386 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.039 few seconds and I thought, I just saw a bunch 387 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.720 of a k's and am mission in this warehouse. You know, 388 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.519 there were cubans for the Grenadans, and I thought, you know, 389 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:07.160 we could use some of those that we're going to 390 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:10.359 get shot at and shoot back. So Low crawled over there, 391 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.119 got some game, gave one to my chief of station 392 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.920 and one for me, and battle was over in ten minutes. 393 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.920 But it was an interesting experience. 394 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:21.599 And so I think you said you spent like a 395 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:25.960 week crawling around Grenada and then showed up back home, 396 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.559 you know, covered in dirt in your Ralph Laurent polo 397 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.519 shirt that you've been wearing for a week. 398 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.319 Yeah, so it was actually almost two weeks and we 399 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.920 had another mission where we were told to apprehend a 400 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:44.279 Libyan intelligence officer on the island who had been ordered 401 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:48.359