WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:24.160 Welcome to Poddave America. I'm Jon Favreau, on today's show, 2 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:27.480 writer and founder of the Slow Boring newsletter Matt Iglesias. 3 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:29.440 We've had a lot of people on the show make 4 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:31.600 the case for why the Democratic Party should move to 5 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.479 the left, and a lot of progressive candidates who represent 6 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.280 that direction. We've also had plenty of people, including us, 7 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.920 critique the Democratic establishment. We haven't really had someone on 8 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:44.280 at least in a while, make a full throated case 9 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:47.320 for a center left politics that emphasizes moderation. 10 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:48.799 I know that probably. 11 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:51.119 Sounds exciting and not at all annoying to many of you. 12 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:54.799 Matt recently wrote a piece titled How the Center Left 13 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.439 Can Come Back in twenty twenty eight that's based in 14 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.479 part on a series of critical, tough questions that Nate 15 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:03.960 Silver recently posed to the center left. I found both 16 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:07.959 Nate's questions and Matt's response really useful in understanding where 17 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:10.719 folks like Matt are coming from and what they're looking 18 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.200 for from the party in twenty twenty eight and beyond. 19 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:15.640 I also had plenty of questions on my own, so 20 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.400 I invited Matt on to see if he had some 21 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:20.879 answers and he did. We talked about how important issue 22 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.079 positions are in a presidential primary, the role of charisma 23 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:27.000 and the ability to get attention, why Democrats have lost 24 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.040 in recent elections, and who on the current bench might 25 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.319 be able to win in twenty twenty eight. It was 26 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:34.120 a great conversation and we will get to it in 27 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.079 a moment. Before we do, please consider becoming a paying 28 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.400 subscriber to Friends of the pod. Subscribers unlock ad free 29 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.519 episodes of all their favorite Cricket pods, including Podza of America, 30 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:47.560 all our great subscriber only newsletters, and exclusive subscriber only 31 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:50.879 podcasts like Podzave America Only Friends and Polar Coaster with 32 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.319 Dan Pfeiffer. Plus, becoming a subscriber is the best way 33 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:58.159 to support your favorite pro democracy independent media company. Head 34 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.959 on over to Cricket dot com slash friends to subscribe. Matt, 35 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:02.280 Welcome to Plase of America. 36 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:03.200 Really good to be here. 37 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:06.519 So I wanted to talk about the factional debate within 38 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.400 the Democratic Party over how to actually win some national elections, 39 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:13.280 and thought who better to do that with than the 40 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:17.840 online left's favorite pundit who can faithfully represent the views 41 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:22.120 of the neolibshill faction. And I think a good place 42 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.159 to start is with your recent piece about how the 43 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:27.120 center left can come back in twenty twenty eight, where 44 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.039 your one big answer is that the center left needs 45 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.520 a twenty twenty eight presidential primary campaign that articulates its 46 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.919 critique of the status quo before we get to the 47 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:40.719 critique itself. Why a presidential campaign? 48 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.159 You know, I think something we see in politics is 49 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:48.120 that political parties are really defined by their presidential campaigns 50 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:52.080 and by their leadership. Everybody, I mean, you me, people 51 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.599 with all different kinds of videological viewpoints are frustrated about 52 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.719 where Democrats are at now, and they like want them 53 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.439 to be clearer and have a better message, but realistically 54 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:05.000 there's just like not that much the Chuck Schumer and 55 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.199 Hakeem Jeffries can do. You're hurting cats on Capitol Hill. 56 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.159 It's presidential campaigns. Donald Trump comes in, he wins a nomination. 57 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.719 It totally redefines what the Republican Party is about, you know, 58 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:18.199 for good and for ill. And that's what's going to 59 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.759 happen in twenty eight, right There's going to be a contest. 60 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.400 Somebody is going to win it. That person will be 61 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.599 the leader. What Democrats stand for is going to be, 62 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:30.400 you know, largely whatever it is that person stands for. 63 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.159 And until then, you know, you try to have good 64 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.960 candidates in the key races you hope they win. Everyone's 65 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.599 going to have some who they like more than others. 66 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:40.759 But it's it's like it's going to be a mess. 67 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:41.319 Yeah. 68 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:45.639 I thought about that after the twenty twenty five off 69 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.479 year elections, when everyone had this like goldilocks view of 70 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.599 it where they're like, well, you know, you had some 71 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.520 more center left moderate candidates winning in some places and 72 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:56.680 Mamdannie wins in New York and so it's all great 73 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:58.599 and we don't have to fight that much. It's like, well, yeah, 74 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:01.000 it's it's easier to do in a mide off your 75 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:02.560 elections than a presidential election. 76 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:04.400 That's where the rubber hits the road. 77 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:08.199 So you make clear that this center left critique is 78 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.520 a critique of what you call the Clinton, Biden, Harris 79 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.039 Schumer status quo. How would you describe that status quo 80 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:16.920 and what is your critique of it? 81 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.360 Sure? You know, so, I think there's been some pretty 82 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:26.600 dramatic leftward moves in the Democratic Party since Barack Obama's 83 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.000 second term. And this has not been like the left 84 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.399 quote unquote Bernie Sanders his people taking the party over. 85 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.439 It's been an establishment stewardship. But they've shifted on a 86 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.040 lot of different things, some of the minor or some 87 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:43.639 of them big. I mean, I think a notable one 88 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.240 that I've read about in the piece is education policy, 89 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.480 where without really like a huge rancorous debate about it, 90 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:56.199 ideas about performance pay for teachers, ideas about supporting high 91 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.680 performing charter schools that you know, the Obama White House 92 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.439 had chain and it was controversial at the time. Inside 93 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.879 the party just sort of went in the other direction. 94 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.959 And then we had, you know a lot of discussion 95 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:11.079 about this around COVID and school closures and different things there. 96 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:14.480 But you know, Democrats had an identity as a party 97 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.879 of reform of the public sector that has sort of 98 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:21.439 gone away in that regard. Democrats have also, you know, 99 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:24.959 shifted a lot on immigration over the past ten to 100 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.680 fifteen years. Right, There's been all this stuff about asylum 101 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.720 that came up during the Biden presidency just wasn't really 102 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:35.000 an issue that like people were thinking that much about. 103 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.040 During the Obama presidency, there was this kind of very 104 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.120 specific focus on trying to get a path to citizenship 105 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.160 for people who've been here for a long time. New 106 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.319 things came up. Democrats have you know, gone through a 107 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:50.519 number of cycles around crime and criminal justice reform since 108 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.720 that time, but have been sort of seen in some 109 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:55.920 circles is very soft on crime. I think I think 110 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:58.519 left wing Democrats have started to see that this is 111 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:01.920 a problem. Everyone has sort of walked back defunding police 112 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.399 things like that since then, but there's been this kind 113 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:08.480 of and then on economic policy, there's been a shift again. 114 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.759 It was a shift in the Biden administration to these 115 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:16.720 kind of much more Elizabeth Warren like positions about you know, 116 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:20.000 the role of business, it's relationship to the state. It 117 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:22.319 used to be kind of a view that, you know, 118 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.279 Democrats were a party that was going to make rich 119 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:27.639 people pay higher taxes and that was going to be 120 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:29.920 a non starter for a lot of rich people in 121 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:32.360 the country, but for people who could stand that, who 122 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.040 could say, you know what, I'm going to pay more 123 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.879 under the Democrats, I'm going to contribute to the common will, 124 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.839 I'm going to help the poor whatever. You know, I'm 125 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.959 still going to be treated like respectfully as if business 126 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.759 is a laudable thing to do with your career. And 127 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.879 there's been shifts on both sides of that, much more 128 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.720 contentious relationship between the Democratic Party and the technology industry, 129 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.079 but really the Democratic Party in the business world were large. 130 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.680 So I take your point that the party has definitely 131 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.800 shifted leftward on a number of issues. And I can 132 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:09.959 just speak from experience because oftentimes when this gets debated, 133 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:11.959 I can remember when I was in the White House 134 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:14.800 around the Obama campaign and we did Race to the Top, 135 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.720 and we talked about teacher pay, and we talked about 136 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.959 immigration in the context of we're a nation of immigrants, 137 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:23.360 but we're also a nation of laws. And you know, 138 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.319 now people on the right just like playback Obama clips 139 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:29.199 from two thousand and eight where he's talking about border security. 140 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:30.399 So I get that. 141 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:35.079 How do we know people's negative view of the Democratic 142 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:40.480 Party and the Democratic parties sort of losing some elections, 143 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:44.439 some big ones, is due primarily to specific issue positions 144 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:50.079 and not a number of other factors, you know, general 145 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:54.319 perception of elitism, corruption, weakness, however you define it right, 146 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:57.279 There's a whole bunch of different potential factors in these losses. 147 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:59.079 You know, I think all this stuff is in the 148 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.000 mix obviously, and to an extend, it connects to people. 149 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:05.160 Search Light Institute did a really interesting series of polls 150 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:08.920 about corruption. You know, people are very concerned about corruption. 151 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.399 They think the political establishment is very corrupt. 152 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.680 But they asked, like, do you. 153 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:17.439 Consider X, Y and Z thing corrupt? And you know, 154 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.959 it was like trading on insider stock information, definitely corrupt. 155 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:24.879 But people also said it was corrupt when politicians do 156 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:30.399 things to sort of curry favor with social elites that 157 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.679 aren't what the public wants. Right, So that's like a 158 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.200 very expansive view of corruption, where like if you're afraid 159 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.200 of getting canceled or something, so you're doing this, you know, 160 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.840 that could be corrupt in some people's eyes. You also 161 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.000 might see that as weak. You know, I don't think 162 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:49.320 you want to be weak. I think again, to the 163 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:54.039 point of why presidential campaigns matter, moderate members of Congress 164 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.000 are almost all people who are representing districts the Donald 165 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:01.360 Trump one. I think those people are in some ways 166 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.120 the Democrats' MVPs, but they are not MVPs when it 167 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.320 comes to like big partisan controversies, because that's just that's 168 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.879 not how you hold down a red House seat. You 169 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:14.600 kind of like duck those fights, and that does look 170 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:16.480 weak to people who are in the base, and that's 171 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.799 not what they want. Right in a presidential campaign, you 172 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:23.039 can do what Donald Trump did on Medicare and Social Security. 173 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.320 You can do what President Obama did on education issues, 174 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:29.960 which is you can reposition to the center on select 175 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:33.559 things while also being like a strong voice for your 176 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.759 party and its side on certain. 177 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:36.519 Kinds of key issues. 178 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:40.720 But you know, I do think that issues matter to people. Like, 179 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:45.039 it's not a coincidence that in twenty twelve Democrats had 180 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:49.000 all these great ads lambasting Mitt Romney's Medicare plan, and 181 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:51.639 then Donald Trump comes along and he's like, I'm not 182 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.600 going to do that Medicare plan right now. You know, 183 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.639 ninety percent of the people who voted for Obama in 184 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:01.440 twenty twelve vote for Hillary in twenty sixteen. But the 185 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.360 people who were persuaded by those Medicare ads, now they 186 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.879 got a Republican who's like, you know what, I'm not 187 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.440 going to do that. So you know, you go around 188 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.559 the country, right, like, not that many people are swing voters. 189 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:17.159 It's a small population, but I think there are people there, 190 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.879 right who are looking at, you know, these questions about 191 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.679 who should play on women's sports teams, and they really 192 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.759 do care about that issue, and it upsets them that 193 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.960 Democrats have the position that they don't agree with. And 194 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:32.639 that's a different I mean, that was not an issue 195 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.919 that we talked about really ten fifteen years ago. But 196 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:40.240 I remember in two thousand and eight when that campaign 197 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:43.480 was happening, and Obama and all Democrats everywhere said that 198 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:45.919 marriage is between a man and a woman. And that's 199 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:47.960 not what I believed, and I know lots of the 200 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.000 younger people who worked on those campaigns, that's not what 201 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:55.279 they believed. I don't know what the principles themselves believed privately, 202 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.519 but I think everyone kind of understood at that point 203 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:00.399 in time that it was going to be the job 204 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:04.279 of someone else to like persuade the voters that our 205 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:07.200 more forward thinking progressive view was correct, and that the 206 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:10.279 politicians were gonna, you know, try to get to yes 207 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.759 with the electorate. That it was it was tough enough 208 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.120 to be opposing these constitutional amendments and other kinds of 209 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.960 things that would have completely closed the door in equality, 210 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.159 and so some of what's happened is I think just 211 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:25.600 a less of a pragmatic spirit. 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Investment results will vary investing involved risk. 289 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:49.039 Acorns Advisors LLC and sec Register Investment Advisor view important 290 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.679 disclosures at acorns dot com slash cricket. 291 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:57.519 It is true that you know a majority. 292 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:00.000 Of voters, especially voters in the States we need to win, 293 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.480 and routinely telpolsters, including especially in the most recent New 294 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.559 York Times polls, that the Democratic Party is too far left, 295 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.000 and more people think, at least in the New York 296 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.960 Times poll, more people think the Democratic Party is too 297 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:15.879 far left than they think the Republican Party is too 298 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:21.600 far right. Not great though importantly, in all six of 299 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:24.919 the states where they polled, the six Senate states that 300 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.519 are pick up opportunities for Democrats, voters were less likely 301 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.480 to describe the Democratic candidate as too far left than 302 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:34.919 they were the Democratic Party itself. Do you attribute that 303 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:41.159 to specific moderate positions taken by Mary Peltola, Josh Turik, 304 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.720 Shared Brown, Roy Cooper, James tell Rico, Because and I 305 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.759 don't know about all of their positions on everything, but 306 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.279 it doesn't seem like at least, you know, I know enough, 307 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.759 like shared's been around long enough, it doesn't seem like 308 00:15:53.879 --> 00:16:00.559 they have moderated on any of the issues where democ 309 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:02.879 or you might think that Democrats need to moderate on. 310 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.519 Well, it's a little of both, right. So Turrek and 311 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:09.600 Peltola have both sort of said that they want to 312 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.720 support their state's oil and gas industries, you know, which 313 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:16.240 would be a very hot take in national Democratic Party politics. 314 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:17.000 I think it's kind of a. 315 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.600 No brain or in Alaska and Texas, And you know 316 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:21.519 that's good. We're just all kind of getting to a 317 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:23.200 place of pragmatism and stuff like that. 318 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:24.360 Roy Cooper. 319 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.519 You know, he's been in state wide office in North 320 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.360 Carolina for a long, long, long time, has a distinctive 321 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.320 relationship with the voters there. I think they see him 322 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.080 as moderate, at least because he's held office for a 323 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:39.720 long time. There's this Republican supermajority in the legislature, so 324 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.600 we don't really know but what it is he would 325 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.480 have done if he was empowered. Josh Turik and Iowa, 326 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:50.639 you know, he really had a hard fought primary. Elizabeth 327 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:55.440 Warren and others were supporting his opponent. He held and 328 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:59.480 represented an Obama to Trump, you know, switching district in 329 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.080 the state legislature there. I don't know anything about Iowa. 330 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:04.440 I've never been there. I don't like to represent myself 331 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.799 as an expert, but it did seem like it was 332 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.559 the more moderate choice in a contested primary. You know, 333 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.480 Chared Brown is I think the interesting one. I mean, 334 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:15.200 I'm old enough to remember in two thousand and six 335 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.960 when he was like this progressive dream candidate we'd emerge 336 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.000 and like that was a different era in Ohio, right, 337 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.759 Like everything was very different back then. You know, he 338 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.480 in Obama's first term, he really clashed with the white 339 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.160 House over some energy stuff, Religi to the steel industry, 340 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.880 things like that. In Biden's term, he was much more 341 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.279 kind of a good soldier, got along with everybody. Maybe 342 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:40.359 not the best idea, and it state that Trump won 343 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.440 by six points, so I don't know, you know exactly 344 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.839 where he's going to come down there. Some of it, though, 345 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.039 is that you know, when you have a specific individual candidate, 346 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.640 they can try to communicate who they are rather than 347 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.240 being like a caricature, right, And so that is always 348 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:02.839 the power of individual candidates, individual candidates who unlike late 349 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.920 stage Joe Biden, can like actually speak and engage with people. 350 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:09.039 Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, because I do 351 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:14.640 think that the focus on positions and issue positions, which 352 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.359 I do think voters care about. I would not dismiss that, 353 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:20.279 but it is it is one of many factors because 354 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:21.839 a lot of the people you just talked about, it 355 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:26.759 seems like they they have an image of being more moderate, 356 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:30.839 partly because of vibes that they put off, because of 357 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.960 their their bio, because of who they are, how they communicate. 358 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.160 I mean, Roy Cooper is an interesting one too, because 359 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:41.160 he ran for governor and won that race partly the 360 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:43.519 bathroom bill in North Carolina at the time. Now we're 361 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:47.480 talking about trans issues around sports teams and gender affirming care, 362 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.160 but back then it was a bathroom bill, and he 363 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.359 was able to win in twenty sixteen. Yeah, it's pretty 364 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.720 tough year despite being very vocal on that issue at 365 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.440 the time. And you do wonder, then, is the reason 366 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.960 that Roy Cooper's doing so well and people think he's 367 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.480 more moderate is is is it other factors aside from 368 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:09.960 the actual positions he's taken. 369 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.000 Well, you know, I think that there's a there's a 370 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.400 bollth end to this, right, So, you know, Governor Cooper 371 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.480 was always sort of positioned himself as a champion of 372 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.000 economic growth in North Carolina and of sort of modernization 373 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.799 and bringing business in. There's this whole kind of you know, 374 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.200 New South tradition that Bill Clinton was part of that, 375 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.640 He's part of that. Andy Basheer is part of the 376 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.759 bathroom bill controversy at the time that that was raging, right, 377 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.279 It was related to that. Part of the case he 378 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:38.279 was making was you know, this is going to hurt 379 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:40.920 us in our convention business, is going to hurt us 380 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.240 in attracting financial services jobs from New York things like that. 381 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.880 And this is where you know, there's issue positions, there's vibes, 382 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.119 there's communications, and it sort of comes together because if 383 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.319 you can explain what you're doing in a way that 384 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.160 connects to things that your constituents care about, that's much 385 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.240 better than if you're kind of duck and cover all 386 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:08.200 the time, right, Like, can you engage you can you 387 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.359 convey some kind of empathy and complexity around these issues? 388 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:18.000 People don't like to be everybody votes for politicians who 389 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.440 they agree with about some stuff and disagree with about 390 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.480 other stuff. If they feel like, well, this is a 391 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:27.400 political party that wants to like cancel me over our disagreements, 392 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:31.680 versus that can respect the idea of differences of opinion 393 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:34.640 but thinks that all things considered, you know, my healthcare 394 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:35.759 plan is really important. 395 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:36.240 Right. 396 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.359 Those are not different issue positions, but it's a little 397 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:40.960 bit more than just vibes. 398 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:41.799 Like I think we. 399 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:48.680 Saw but before before wearing Platiner exited the race under 400 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.440 a cloud of scandal. You know, we were putting to 401 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.799