WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:07.799 Hey, folks, Welcome back to another episode of the Ruby 2 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:08.759 Rogues podcast. 3 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:12.880 This week, on our panel we have Ayushnwatya Hello. 4 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:13.160 Hello. 5 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:18.800 We also have Valentino Stole and now Charles max Wood 6 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:20.600 from Top End Devs, and we have a special guest 7 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.079 this week and that is Allie Heady. 8 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:27.679 Ohhdi actually HEDI no, it's it's fine. 9 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:31.519 I should have asked, but I assume because I think 10 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:34.119 I'm smart, and then I screw stuff up because I 11 00:00:34.119 --> 00:00:38.479 think I'm smart. Anyway, do you want to just you 12 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.439 were mentioning before the show you've worked at thirty seven Signals. 13 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.000 You were the CTO for a free Agent, which is 14 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:53.280 a bookkeeping and financial app for businesses. What else is 15 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.600 there to know? What else are you famous for? 16 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:02.000 I think I think you've done it really well for 17 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.599 a sight of my famous I don't think so. But 18 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.079 they're the two main things, really, I mean, free Agents, 19 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:12.560 you know, consumed fifteen years of my life, so you 20 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:15.079 know that that's pretty much most most things. Before that, 21 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.159 I was a software developer, you know, nothing out of 22 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:24.120 the ordinary, you know, started in the nineties. I used 23 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:29.400 to do computer games originally when they came on CDs 24 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:35.719 and had sprites that kind of game. And then yeah, 25 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.719 I was that was my first job. I was just 26 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:43.359 a programmer, writing to see the plus plus and yeah, 27 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.480 making characters move on the screen. So that was kind 28 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.680 of interesting, although quite hard work. Have to say, I wouldn't, 29 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:52.799 you know, if you just want a nine to five, 30 00:01:53.319 --> 00:02:00.400 I wouldn't recommend video games. 31 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:02.719 Video game developer. 32 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:06.560 So yeah, I mean, great fun. I mean, to be honest, 33 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.039 probably quite different in the nineties. I have no idea 34 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:13.840 what it's like today. I'm not really in there. But 35 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:15.840 but yeah, and then, you know, doing a variety of 36 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.840 different jobs, and ended up being a being a kind 37 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:25.879 of consultant, you know, going into banks, kind of soul 38 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:29.280 destroying that kind of thing. And then yeah, and then 39 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:33.039 we had It's funny because we had I had this 40 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:36.360 accountant to do my you know, to do my books, 41 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:40.120 had a limited company, and he used to send a 42 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:44.280 spreadsheet every month and say fill this in, you know, 43 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:46.680 so okay, and so I had to fill in all 44 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.400 the bank transactions manually and then all the expenses and 45 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:52.960 then send it back over and then and then he 46 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.080 would do whatever he did and then said, well you 47 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:58.719 wrote with this much tax, pay it here. So I 48 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.639 had no idea about how financed, about the finances, how 49 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:04.879 it all worked for anything, and it just felt like 50 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:07.159 a bit of a waste of time. And you know, 51 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:09.919 so as it turned out, Ed, who was another co 52 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.080 founder ere Agent, he had he had the same accountant 53 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:18.479 and he'd been you know, he'd started work on this 54 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:23.479 prototype of free Agent using Ruby because that was super 55 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.159 cool right in two thousand and six. That was the 56 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:30.199 real hot tech. And I met and I met ed, 57 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.280 and you know, we kind of got talking. Found this 58 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:35.080 connection with our accountant and he was like, well, do 59 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:36.759 you want to kind of help me build it? It was 60 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:41.000 good and then quit my job and that was that. 61 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.719 So that's kind of how it came about. And yeah, 62 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.360 fifteen years later, kind of I left because we did 63 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:54.479 an IPO in twenty sixteen on the London Stock Exchange 64 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:56.439 and then and then we actually got acquired by a 65 00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:00.719 bank in twenty eighteen and so kind of stayed there 66 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:02.960 for a little while after that, but then yeah, left 67 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:04.680 in twenty twenty two. So that was the kind of 68 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:08.520 the big startup journey of free Agent and Rails all 69 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.000 the way Ruby and Rails. That was pretty much everything 70 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.040 the whole that pretty much. Not not quite but pretty much. 71 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:17.079 Was it hard to let it go? 72 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:21.800 Let it go? Well, I mean yeah, yes, and no, 73 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:27.439 I think yes, And that it's that it gives you 74 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:29.959 that sense of identity, you know, and so you sort 75 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:32.560 of lose this whole thing. It's like, yeah, the co founder, 76 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.519 Well you can always say co found the company, but 77 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:39.120 you know, you can't really you're detached from it then. 78 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.120 But then but then not really because you know, I 79 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.199 think it had for me, I felt like we'd almost 80 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.279 built everything in it, Like every feature was kind of 81 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:52.160 done in my mind, like it did everything from like 82 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:55.000 time tracking all the way through to kind of filing 83 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.360 your tax returns automatically. But at that point it's we 84 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:00.480 kind of you know, felt like a kind of done. 85 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.160 That's what we set out to do back in the day, 86 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.279 and you know, I thought we'd never get there, but 87 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:08.439 we did. And yeah, and the last thing we did 88 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:13.759 was this massive migration of the infrastructure too, to the cloud. 89 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.240 Not none of this cool, we move out of the cloud. 90 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:20.120 We'd run the whole thing on servers, our own service 91 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.800 for years, and then in twenty twenty, we we did 92 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:25.480 the help. We did that, we moved to the cloud 93 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:28.920 a WS and that was a big thing, and did 94 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:32.920 you know for us was a good thing. Yeah. So 95 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:34.639 once that was done, I was like, yeah, I think, 96 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.839 I'm I think I'm kind of done here, but I 97 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:39.560 do miss it. I still use it as well because 98 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:41.279 I haven't. I do my own kind of consulting thing 99 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.600 now and again, and I'm still used to age. I 100 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.199 mean there quite often. It's good. 101 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.360 Yeah, I'm a customer and I just love it because 102 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.240 I'm completely technical. Book keeping, accounting stuff is just so 103 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.639 i alien to me and I can just click around 104 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:02.480 and learn stuff from from free agent. So it's been 105 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:06.600 a boon for me as a freelancer to have that. So, like, 106 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:10.360 what was the motivation behind going to the cloud because 107 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:13.600 obviously with thirty seven signals all the ages going the 108 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:14.120 other way? 109 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.839 Yeah, absolutely, HH made Kamal so that he could get 110 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:24.959 off the cloud. Yeah, it is a good question. So, 111 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.439 I mean, I guess for starting, I am a big 112 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.759 fan of running your own hardware in many ways, because 113 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:35.199 you know, that's what we started doing. It was kind 114 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.079 of the only option back in twenty sixty seven. I mean, 115 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.639 you know, we just rented a server from rack space 116 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.000 and that was kind of that and you know, and 117 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.399 we did use there was all these cloud Easy two 118 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:52.959 sort of existed, but early days, you know, it wasn't 119 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:55.639 much tooling around that, and there were things like flight 120 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.759 hosts and these other cloud bright Box, a few of 121 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:01.879 these things that we did play around it just for 122 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:04.439 staging servers, playing around, but the actual app ran on. 123 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:08.680 It ran its own hardware, and we did at one 124 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:10.959 point rax Space had a cloud and because we were 125 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:13.759 in raxplace, let's let's use that. This would be great. 126 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.720 But we found it really flaky. It was pretty unreliable 127 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.560 for us, and we lost a bit of trust. And then, 128 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:24.040 you know, one of the guys that we had on 129 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.879 the team was was just great at building servers and stuff, 130 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:34.639 networking and whatnot. So we just decided, well, let's just 131 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.959 let's just do it, and we just we just bought 132 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:41.319 some hardware and rap and racked it up and did 133 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.279 all that and that's how it ran for well what 134 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:49.399 would that be about nine years? But I suppose one 135 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:52.319 of the big drivers was the tech we were using 136 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.519 was kind of niche. We were using towards the end 137 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.279 uh smarter s, which you may or may not have 138 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:04.720 heard of. Not many people who heard of it which 139 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:11.360 is basically like, ultimately it's Salaris, but it's an Loumoss 140 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:16.319 And we were using Triton to do containerization and all 141 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.839 of this. But it wasn't Docer, it wasn't Linux. It 142 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:23.639 was kind of Niche worked really well, but actually the 143 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:26.360 ops team we'd struggled to hire people to do it 144 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:30.000 for that reason and also didn't necessarily want to do 145 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.879 it as well most people, so it was a little 146 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.879 bit troublesome. And obviously the cloud had come a long way, 147 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.399 which we were already using. We already were using S 148 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:42.399 three like all the rescipts, everything that you can helploaded free, 149 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.720 it's all in stary. And that was always the case 150 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:46.519 because you know, you don't want to be getting into 151 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:52.519 objects storage yourself really and we'd already we were starting 152 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:57.600 to do some data science stuff in AUS and so 153 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:01.440 you know a lot of that stuff. It kind of 154 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.480 made sense to us, well let's just think about moving 155 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:07.200 the app over how you know, how hard can that be? 156 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.960 And are lots of advantages And because we've been brought 157 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:13.320 by a bank, they were they were kind of big 158 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.480 on on the cloud as well, and they also had 159 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:17.960 quite a lot of leverage with a US in terms 160 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.360 of the white costs and stuff, so we could kind 161 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:22.440 of pigedback on some of that. So all of that 162 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.679 coming together really helped. And yeah, it was it was 163 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.440 a good move for US, I think. I mean, cost wise, 164 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.120 very hard to compare. I mean maybe maybe it's more depensive. 165 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.240 I mean it's apples and oranges really when you're trying 166 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.480 to compare these costs. But you know, the OPS team 167 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:46.399 getting into kind of the infrastructure automation, infrastructure's code that 168 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.039 which we already did. We were using Poppet and other 169 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.120 technologies that we you know, kind of moved over to 170 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.679 terra Form and all of this, which was much more. 171 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:58.240 People wanted to work with this stuff, right, it was 172 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.320 kind of like reasonably new hot tech that people wanted 173 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:06.120 to do. And so yeah, it was. It was actually 174 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:08.919 a pretty good move, I think. But I do I 175 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:10.919 do kind of miss the power that you get from 176 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.039 your own hardware. It's got, it's got. It's got to 177 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.600 be said. To these databases on like Aurora, and you 178 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:18.279 get these kind of I don't even know what they're called, 179 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.759 you know, the xx sales or whatever, crazy prices really 180 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.639 to be honest, but you know, as long as you 181 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.440 can afford it, and it's you know, it fits within 182 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:30.320 your budget and what you want, you're willing to pay 183 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.240 in terms of you know, your margins, then it's fine. 184 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.240 But if you're trying to squeeze, you know, squeeze margins, 185 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:40.480 improve prove things, then sure. But we were optimizing really 186 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:45.120 for a big engineering team. We had one hundred plus people, 187 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.559 not very big oppostion, and you had about five people 188 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:51.759 doing all of that, which is about half the size 189 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:56.399 of thirty somethings. So, yeah, I think that answer your 190 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:57.360 question a bit of a rambo. 191 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.399 No, that's that's a very parol. And so yeah, you 192 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:06.480 left in twenty twenty two, and then you did you 193 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:08.799 go immediately do Patty sound signals after that? 194 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.960 Yeah? It was, I mean I hadn't, I didn't intend 195 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:15.480 to do. That was because I knew I was leaving 196 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.480 free Agent. And at the time there were a couple 197 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:24.799 of guys that had worked at free Agent that had 198 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:28.600 gone there. They've gone they joined in like the summer 199 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:32.000 of that year twenty one, and you know, I've seen 200 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:36.600 touch these guys really great, great programmers, you know, fantastic people, 201 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:43.279 and at the time they they were looking for like 202 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.519 a director of engineering. And I think one of these 203 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.799 guys said, you should talk to Ollie. You know, he's 204 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:52.720 leaving leaving free Asian, maybe he'd be interested. And so 205 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:57.399 it was kind of like a recommendation that happened. And 206 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.480 then you know, I got the I got a call 207 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:02.440 from David and so that you want to try about this, 208 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.320 and you know, one one thing led to another, and 209 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.200 I was like, this sounds pretty cool. And because quite 210 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.879 a few people from free Agent when I when I 211 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:15.480 then joined, I joined in March twenty two. By that 212 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.919 point they'd hirde about. I think there was five people 213 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:23.879 that were programmers and free Agents. It felt a bit 214 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.720 like getting the gang back together together again. You know, 215 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:28.799 I thought this would be quite cool. I can go 216 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.720 and kind of work with these guys who were amazing 217 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.759 and and you know, get to work with study sent things. 218 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:34.600 That sounds brilliant. 219 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:40.399 And then yeah, the reason I asked about the timing 220 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:42.960 was because I was curious about did you just help 221 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.480 free Agent get onto the cloud then switch jobs and 222 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:47.639 help another company get off the cloud? 223 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.320 Certainly doesn't look like that, doesn't it. But yeah, I think, well, 224 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.120 my involvements in the in the cloud exit things was 225 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:59.960 pretty minimal. I mean to be honest, I wasn't involved 226 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:05.360 technically really in many things there it was. It was 227 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:12.799 very much more of a management leadership role. So unfortunately, 228 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:15.919 I think get stuck in fair enough. 229 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:20.440 So I'm not saying there's just a blow smoke up 230 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.519 her ass, but free Agent has one of the best 231 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:27.320 webu eyes of more modern software as a service app 232 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:31.000 that I've used and as chatting with other free Agent 233 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.200 guys that at Brighton Ruby a couple of months ago 234 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.360 and have said this to them as well. I'm curious 235 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.440 from your point of view as a leader, because you 236 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:41.240 grew the company through the twenty tens, how did you 237 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.039 avoid this whole hype cycle of React and stuff? And 238 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:49.080 because because the way I see it, most web YOUU 239 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:52.440 eyes are shipped because people use React and shoved it 240 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:54.960 where it has no business being. It's a great tool 241 00:13:55.679 --> 00:14:00.639 for the right job, but obviously i'll avoid the right now. 242 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.000 But so how did you avoid the hypees and just 243 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.559 keep things simple and as such? Like a very it's 244 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:07.720 got a very snappy UI. 245 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.559 Yeah, Ali, how are you such a genius? 246 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.240 Well, I'd love to claim that, but let's let let's 247 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.440 dive into what what the reality under the hood show? 248 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.120 So I mean front end right, like back in two 249 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:33.840 thousand and seven, the naughts, it was all you know, uh, 250 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:38.120 prototype JS that kind of thing, right the job. 251 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:39.600 Oh you're going way back. 252 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.679 How it was that when I got started, Yeah, it 253 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:47.240 was prototype, and then Jaquery was like the dream. 254 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.720 Yeah we didn't have Jery but and so I suppose 255 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:52.919 fortunately in some way, we just didn't really do that 256 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:56.600 much javascripts, Like I think the only places we really 257 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:01.399 had it were populating combo bot is that kind of thing, 258 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.159 you know, when you change one, the next one populates 259 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.600 a few things like that. So we kind of avoided 260 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:12.360 it just because well, I wasn't really very good at joscript. 261 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.519 I don't it. I am very good at joscript even now, 262 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.240 to be honest, because I'm just trying to touch a 263 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.799 voice it as much as I can. And then you know, 264 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.919 jay Query, I guess came along and we used some 265 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:28.840 of that for a while. And I think part of 266 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.519 the thing was that free Agent's scope was really broad. 267 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.159 So when it came to dev that there were so 268 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.720 many features that we wanted to do, and it was 269 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:42.000 like everything It's like payroll and you know bank you know, 270 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.200 using bank feeds like Yoadley we had to do. Back 271 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.240 in the day, there was this huge scope of stuff, 272 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.600 so like fattening around and rewriting UI's was not really 273 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.039 a useful business thing to do, so we just kind 274 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:01.840 of didn't do it. We just left it now, except 275 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.120 that one of the most kind of interactive parts of 276 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:07.120 the app is the banking area, where you have all 277 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.200 your bank transactions and you kind of click and you 278 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:16.440 can explain them and categorize them. Now that probably twenty 279 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.679 we're trying to think thirteen or something like that, I 280 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:26.039 think someone had started playing around with a JavaScript framework. 281 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:28.879 I can't remember off the top of the head actually 282 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.360 what that was called. It was, it was one of 283 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.440 the early ones, and then which I think we actually 284 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:39.240 put live perhaps, But then someone during one of our 285 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.759 hack days decided to try and build it and react 286 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:48.200 the banking section which kind of works, and they got it. 287 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.759 They've got it working quite quickly in a few days, 288 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:57.000 you know, prototyping this thing, and it looked it was better, 289 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.759 it worked better from a UI point of view, But 290 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.679 then what it kind of grew arms and legs, and 291 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.160 what happened with that project. Is that ultimately that area 292 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.640 then became written in React and it stuck. Even though 293 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.160 it was it was much more complicated. It's quite buggy 294 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:19.920 because like all the validation that you know was in 295 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.680 was on the server side, so all the front endfaltation 296 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.960 was being duplicated again, including we had stuff like formatting 297 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:30.599 numbers and stuff that the Rails Act would do, and 298 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.480 so when this section got built in React, then all 299 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:38.720 of that had to be people duplicating number formatting. So 300 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:40.359 it's all a bit of a bit of a mess, 301 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.160 to be honest, And as far as I know that 302 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.599 is still there, that whole banking area in free agent 303 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:52.640 is React. Well inside the kind of main frame, there's 304 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:58.720 not so much sing. But but then honestly, I now 305 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.000 it could be I could be slightly wrong here because 306 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.640 it's going back to yours. But then so everything else 307 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:05.920 kind of stay the same. And because the reacting took 308 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.960 so long and in my opinion was a bit it's 309 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.440 protracted and didn't really result in any any kind of 310 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.359 great value, then nothing. We kind of made the call 311 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:21.000 like nothing else and we forget about it. We're just 312 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.200 going to leave it as it is and gradually improve things, 313 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:29.279 by which point turbo and stimulus was coming along, and 314 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:30.880 by the time I left then it was like, right 315 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.680 that the future should be in We'll just stick with 316 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.240 the rails conventions and we'll do stuff that way, ideally 317 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.839 maybe replacing the whole reacting at some point. But again 318 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:42.559 it's the same problem, like, well, there's lots of other 319 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.000 things to do, what that kind of works, might as 320 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:49.559 well leave it, even though you are juggling different technologies. 321 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:55.559 So it's you know, we did, through general ignorance. We didn't, 322 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.039 you know, rebuild the entire UAR in reaction. I'm quite 323 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:00.440 thankful that we didn't. I think that would have probably 324 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.400 been a bad idea. We did, we did have the 325 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:09.519 mobile apses using kind of I don't think we used 326 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:11.480 to reacting native, but I think we talked about doing that, 327 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:16.200 but we ultimately just went with native. But yeah, so 328 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.880 it's because of the size of free Agent. There's a 329 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:21.640 lot of different tech going we did. I think we 330 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.599 did get rid of j Query altogether eventually, but certainly 331 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.960 even if base base camp still has j Query in parts, 332 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.119 I'm pretty sure could be right, pretty sure it did 333 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.319 as well, you know, because these things are quite hard 334 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.119 to extract, it's it's a lot of effort and for 335 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.119 pretty much zero user benefit pretty much, and they can work, right, 336 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.319 So it's it's tricky managing things on that scale. 337 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:52.400 I think, Yeah, I've never understood this whole thing of 338 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.799 rewriting stuff that does the exact same thing but in 339 00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:58.119 a new stack. I'm like, what's the point of just 340 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:02.480 just wasted effort? So yeah, let's just leave it, let 341 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:03.000 it work. 342 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:09.079 I generally agree, but if the ongoing maintenance burden will 343 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.400 be lessened by rewriting it, and it's not like a 344 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.039 total hey you're going to spend six months rewriting this piece, right, 345 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.359 So you have to weigh all these things. But I've 346 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.920 I've worked on apps where there was a new, better 347 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:25.000 way of doing things. 348 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.480 It was not terribly onerous to change it over. 349 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.960 Yeah, there was no real benefit to the users except 350 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.359 that the next time we had to come along and 351 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:40.160 maintain touch and modify whatever that application stuff, it was 352 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.079 going to be much much much easier, and so it 353 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.319 allowed us to deliver better and faster in the future. 354 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.200 I feel like too, you know, like a lot of 355 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.000 people don't like they like to draw parallels of like 356 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:59.920 front end coding to back end coding, and like you know, 357 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.279 somebody wants to switch to rust, Like you know, that's 358 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.759 a much steeper learning curve than just switching from j 359 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.319 Query to react or something like that. 360 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:13.680 Yeah, but I mean, I guess what's tricky as well 361 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:15.839 when when you have a lot of engineers in a 362 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.519 dozens and dozens of engineers, you get a lot a 363 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.759 lot of opinions as to what is the right thing 364 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.000 thing to do. And even when you know you're talking about, well, 365 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.599 let's do will do stingulus, that's how we're going to 366 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:33.359 do these things. You know, then you're going to people 367 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.319 are going to say, well, great, can we use stimulus reflex? 368 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.200 Can we do that because here's a good reason to 369 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:44.079 use this, or you know, it's a challenge to kind 370 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.480 of try and create standards which you ideally would like 371 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:50.400 because then everything's the same as a level playing field. 372 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.559 You all know what you're working on. But in reality, 373 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.599 it's like if someone thinks they can do that under 374 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.039 the benefit to doing that is is it bad? Is that? Dan? 375 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:00.839 Just are you going to end up in situation where 376 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.319 you're just using an obsolete technology and that you have 377 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:08.279 to then replace or actually, is it fine. It's you're 378 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:13.200 kind of making bets regardless of what you do, and 379 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:18.000 sometimes you know the stimulus is good, isn't it? But well, 380 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.079 in my experience, which isn't huge, to be fair, I 381 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:25.119 think it's quite opaque in terms like exactly how to 382 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:28.799 how what is the best practice? Like for an infinite scroll? 383 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:31.200 I don't know, like if you google it, there's like 384 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:33.799 loads of ways of doing it. Which way should I 385 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:39.640 do it? And not a contrived example? Maybe that that 386 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.400 kind of thing where it's where it's kind of, in 387 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:46.920 my opinion, quite vague documentation about how to do stuff. 388 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.160 You are kind of left to googling or chat GPT 389 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.759 and hoping it comes back with stuff where and it's 390 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:54.640 the same in the business, it's like, well, our only 391 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:57.839 stimulus reflex is that bad? I'm just going to include 392 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.839 this particular job script stuff and going to fit our 393 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.960 needs here? Is that bad? Is that good? I kind 394 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.319 of think it's okay, but I'll kind of keep an 395 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.240 eye on it. Whereas we react. That's very much. It's 396 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:14.200 a different paradigm, isn't it That that's much more complicated, 397 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:17.240 I think where it's just a jobscript libraries. 398 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:21.559 Career, So how do you assess like switching to new 399 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:25.359 technologies or adopting new things, like what is your thought 400 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:26.920 process on like doing that? 401 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.799