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Speaker 1: What is up, Fellowsichos, I am dan fa Valley coming

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at you with the one, the only, this certified fantabuous,

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mister Grant Hughes. We are gathered here today to play

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NBA Factor Fiction. Felt like a good way to tackle

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some current events, what we've seen going around in the

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hashtag discourse, but also just some post All Star Break

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later season developments or conversation topics that are floating around

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out there as well. We don't even need to get

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into the criteria or how we delict factor fiction. Do

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we believe it or do we not? It's pretty simple.

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And so with that factor fiction, Grant, how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Is it good?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, Grant factor fiction is doing well the

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NBA Factor Fiction.

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Speaker 2: That's a fact.

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Speaker 3: And I apologize to absolutely nobody for doing well. That's

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s bolstra. Have you seen the clip of that you

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must have by now. Yeah, it's pret pretty great. That's

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pretty great. Like I just think, thank you for that. Uh,

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how how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'll turn it, I'll turn it around on you.

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Speaker 1: Look, I was whining to you about how I'm so

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much of an adult that I've messed up my wrists

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the other night and it's just thrown off my recording

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this on a Friday for a Saturday, and it's just

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thrown off my entire This happened Thursday night. It's thrown

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off my entire day and probably weekend. I'm just so

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grumpy about it. If I like move around workouts, it's

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just it's a bad time for me. Some cranky at

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the moment, which means all my tanks are probably going

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to be I'm gonna skew towards the negative, the most

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negative reactions possible, I think, or what is coming?

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Speaker 2: Great? We have cranky Dan ready for ready to just proclaim.

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Factor fiction. Do you want to start? Do you want

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to pick the first one? My balling one?

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Speaker 1: I think we have to start with a specific one. Anyway,

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I don't know if it's I'll pick it okay. Factor Fiction.

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Grant bam Adebio's eighty three point game was less ethical

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than Bryant's eighty one point game frame with however you

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want bad. It was bad for the league. He should

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have stopped at eighty one as a tribute to Kobe,

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because everything is a tribute. It needs to be a

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tribute to Kobe for some reason. Factor of Fiction.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's fiction. I so we haven't really

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talked about this. When I saw the little crawl about it,

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I wasn't watching that game.

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Speaker 2: I really like couldn't.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't process it. It's because I think I don't know,

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I don't know like how to categorize this among other

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anomalousts scoring outbursts like this, other than to say it's

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got to be.

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Speaker 2: The weirdest one for so many reasons.

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Speaker 3: And the first reason is that, like it's Bam autobio,

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which is like anyone who's listened to us for any

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amount of time. No, we're both in the bag for Bam.

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We think he's great, we love him, we're higher on

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him than basically everybody. But for him, I think I

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texted you, if you'd given me fifty guesses of who'd

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scored eighty three points, Bam would not have been among

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those guesses. And I was texted with somebody else and

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said the same thing, and the response was he wouldn't

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have been in my top one hundred, which is not

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a knock on Bam. It's just that he's not the

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type of player that you would expect to have a

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scoring outpurst like that, so that makes it weird. The

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fact that it's against the Wizards makes it weird because

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what is that team. The fact that it's a Heat

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player that did it is also weird because the Heat

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are all about all the right things, and if you're

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of the belief that this is an unethical thing, well

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this is the wrong thing. Oh the heater should be

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above that Heat culture. All that stuff is just weird.

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That's not a value judgment on is it good or

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bad or anything. It's just this was a deeply strange

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occurrence that even when we get some distance from it

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and you see the leaderboard for single game scoring posted

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in the future, you're gonna see his name at number two,

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and still I will still do a double take.

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Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on it?

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Speaker 3: Before we we'll get to the value judgment of it,

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because that's what the question the factor fiction is focused on.

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But I want to know what your takeaway is just

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in general, because we haven't talked about it.

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Speaker 1: I was shocked that it was him, but it was.

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It was an objectively cool moment. You're cutting away from

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the Peacock game to go look at Heat Wizards, right, No,

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like that game was circled on basically nobody's calendar to

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actually watch, and it was.

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Speaker 3: Only it was it was an immediate skip for me

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because it's the Wizards and it's late in the season.

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Speaker 2: I'm not watching that game like.

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Speaker 1: When there's other when there's better alternatives on, for sure.

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And the other part was is even when I had

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seen that he had thirty four points in the first quarter,

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it was like okay, and then you so kind of

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what was going on at halftime and I came I

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didn't tune in into like the midway of the fourth quarter,

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and then I went back and watched a lot of

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like everything that he did, like there after the fact

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that was so cool though, like to just you scored

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eighty three points, and it was when you go back

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and watch and this nowind of gets into the ethicality

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of it. The first quarter was just Bam on fire

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five three pointers, and then like throughout the rest of

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the game, the rest of his touches, they were just like, yeah,

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they're especially in the fourth quarter when he have sixteen

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free throws. I think that's what people are gonna harp

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on at the forty plus free throws.

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Speaker 3: Record attempts and makes in a single game, which is

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was that's the weirdest part. Forgot to mention that that's

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the weirdest part of the whole thing, that he took

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forty three free throws.

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Speaker 1: Right and then like it doesn't look seven of twenty

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two from three. No, that doesn't look super efficient. But

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like for the first I don't know more than half

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of that game, it was a lot of well, like

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the Wizards, the Wizards were the Wizards, and it was

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when I I recalled seeing them be more aggressive against

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him than they actually were for a lot of like

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there were some of there was like a baseline trap

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that they had that I didn't understand. I think was

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in the start of the third quarter or whatever it was.

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But then like by the end of the game, they're

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triple teaming like on the inbounds because they're clearly trying

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to stop it from happening. I think that element of

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it is cool, and you could equip it with some

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of the fouls felt a little ticky tech, which like

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he's going right at them, they're moving their feet and

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he was. But what I was actually trying to say

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is during the meat and potatoes of that game, Bam

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was just overpowering everybody that was kind of on him

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and he actually, you know, Alexar, I thought it points

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like did okay, And the most egregious valing came not

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from Alexar in that game. But it's like Trisan Vuksovish

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isn't going to stand a chance against him, Anthony Gill

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isn't going to stand a chance against him. He had

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a couple just left handed drives from the wing or

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the baseline. It was just this like Bam was like

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in his attack mode bag that night, and this is

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also coming was it last week or two weeks ago

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where he basically said I'm tired of being in the

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fucking playing and so it was kind of cool that

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it dovetailed with Was this just his moment of I'm

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going going to get it? Really though the first half

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was when you go back and watch what he was

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able to do. There nothing about that felt like you

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could sense that, oh we might be on our way

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to like sort of a spec night from him. But

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that just sort of felt like basketball being played and

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Bam was dominating at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think anyone that is really bent out of

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shape about this game for ethical reasons or like integrity

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of competition any any of the high minded sort of

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criticisms or the idea that this, this particular thing like

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flies in the face of some set of norms that

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are sacred. Is anyone who thinks that it is totally

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ignoring the fact that anytime you have a game like this,

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in so far as there just to say, like a

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record setting or record threatening game, or just a particularly

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like just a wild scoring night, it's always a little weird.

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It's always there's always some element of the of teammates

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feeding a player of the ball that they wouldn't otherwise,

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Like some some of the purer aspects of the of

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the game competitively do get compromised. Toby's eighty one was

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not dissimilar. It's just like the Lakers, like no one

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else was going to shoot in that game, and it

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was just it turned into something other than basketball. Klay

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Thompson when he set the record for fourteen threes, the

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Warriors were fouling, like it was just every time there's

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something like this, they're shenanigans. Because you can't score eighty

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three points in a modern NBA game without shenanigans. You

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can't make fifteen threes without shenanigans. You can't if someone

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was like threatening forty rebounds or something, his teammates would.

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Speaker 1: Get out of the way so he could get the

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forty three rebounds. Would they miss the.

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Speaker 2: Game? Yeah? Would they miss the nature of this kind

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of game. It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: So can I object with a stat just to back

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up what you said? This is not from me, this

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is from at stat Center. He wrote in Wilt's one

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hundred point game, Philly was letting New York score quickly

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in the fourth quarter so they could get the ball

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back and feed the big man. Kobe took thirteen of

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LA's seventeen field goal attempts and all thirteen of their

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free throw attempts in the fourth quarter to get to

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eighty one, and they just close it by saying He

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closed by saying, no one's ever scored seventy plus, quote

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unquote ethically, what Brad Bam did is insane and joyous,

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which I think is just those are facts backing up.

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But the just the other thing I'd like to note.

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But before you go on, did you see a lot

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of But I guess I still in my own silo

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that I saw the Sam A mc take from the

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Athletics that he should have stopped at Cody Kobe's eighty one,

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which all the specter in the world for the stuff

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that Sam Amic does, that's one of the most Essa takes.

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Speaker 2: Disagree, get this clout out disagree.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't see a lot of I saw a

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lot of people trolling the idea that it was an

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ethical more than I did, which I should have started

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the conversation to where was this an actual discussion. I'm

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sure in corners of the internet or sports talk radio,

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but I didn't see a lot of I saw a

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lot of people celebrating it or trolling the idea that

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you wouldn't celebrate it.

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Speaker 3: This is like such a statement on the on the

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modern condition of media consumption and the need to perpetuate

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news cycles.

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Speaker 2: Because I think you're exactly right.

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Speaker 3: There was a straw man construction of the uptight basketball

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purist knocking this to a much greater degree than there

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was an actual vocal reaction that matched that. Like that

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it was it was easy to do the Sports center

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or the talking head show clip where you set up

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oppositional sides of like somebody has to say that this

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was unethical or this was besmirched the game somehow, just

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so someone else can say all the things we just said.

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Speaker 2: It's just like, I really I don't know what.

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Speaker 3: The percentages would be, but the percentage of sincere outrage

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versus this was cool and a lot of times when

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this happens it's a little weird. It's got to be

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like ten to ninety. I think there's just an overwhelming

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majority that are saying the things that we're saying. To

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this extent of this is cool. Nothing sacred here. Anyone

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else that's ever come close to this is kind of

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bullshitted around to get there too. It's cool, Like it's

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not the end of the world. I think that's the

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vast majority of people. But because it's a huge news story,

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you have to set up this like concocted, you know,

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adversarial debate about it. I think I think a lot.

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I think you're right to have that intuition that nobody's really.

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Speaker 1: That mad about it, and what would there Let's let's

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say he shot like twenty free throws or something. Do

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you think then presumably the discourse would have been, well,

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he took too many threes or like, because if he's

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not making those free throws, they're probably coming from it

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just there would have been ways to poke holes. What

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is the ethical way to get to the and there's

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this isn't technically an ethical you know, but at the

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same time, what would have been the quote unquote ethical

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way to even get to this? Because I think people

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would have said, he either had the ball to he

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could have scored it all on two pointers. Would that

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have made it and very minimal free throws? Does that

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make it ethical? Did it need to come against a

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top ten defense? Did it like? Did he need to?

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And I just I don't know what the ethical way

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would have been like even in people's trying to map

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out the scenario where this was so wholesome that there

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was only a one percent percent of people figuring out

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a way to discredit it.

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Speaker 3: Exactly what does it look like if he gets eighty

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three and nobody has for a second the thought of well,

255
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I was kind of let's throw some asterisks up there

256
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that was it's the Wizards all the free throws, like, oh,

257
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that's like, what's.

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Speaker 2: That even look like?

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Speaker 1: The only way I could see that happening is if

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it's a quadruple overtime game or something like that, and

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then then there's as just credit it basically it's so basically,

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can we say no one factor fiction, No one will

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ever score eighty points without some measure of again vocal

264
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vocal minority, but some measure of like a little Sian

265
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being aimed at it. Yeah, yeah, there it's I mean,

266
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if it happened, what is that is the game? And

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then let's say regulation this final score is probably like

268
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one seventy two to one sixty nine or something. People

269
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are gonna be no defense was played or what happened

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to it? Like the game that you wouldn't be able

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to win in that SCE area.

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Speaker 2: I think it was cool.

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Speaker 1: I think overall it was good for the end because

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it was just this moment. And I mean, if you're

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gonna keep the season as long as it is and

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you're gonna complain about the qualt, like what are.

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Speaker 2: We what's let us have this?

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Speaker 1: Let us once in a while, and what is the

279
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point of Like why would I didn't understand the and

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even sam A make acknowledge in this piece that maybe

281
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this is rooted in nostalgia, which is also that's a

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different type of question. I think we have a factor

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fiction topic that kind of just steps on the toes

284
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for a little bit, So I recognize that part, but

285
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I just don't what are we doing? You had a

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chance to go in the record books, but directly behind Wilt.

287
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And it's also just because no one really saw Wilt's

288
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one hundred point game, like you're you're now this.

289
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Speaker 2: Goodhead as saying, aren't there who knows? Right?

290
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Speaker 3: But I really do feel like I've come across several

291
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uh questions about the actual like was it actually one

292
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hundred because you know box scores then just looking at

293
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like it's an it's some dude with a pencil considering

294
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the era. That's like writing things down on the sideline.

295
00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:07,200
And so assist totals and rebound totals are nuts, like

296
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,600
assist inflation was happening in Utah twenty five years ago

297
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,799
or thirty years like, it's not that old of a thing.

298
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So that throw that in there too, Like I don't

299
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know that anyone to one hundred percent degree of certainty

300
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,840
could say that he actually scored one hundred points. So

301
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,759
just it's all of these things are There's there's no

302
00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:27,159
perfect record, right, I don't I don't think I think

303
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,360
any crazy high total in any statistical category is gonna

304
00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:33,320
be questionable in some regards.

305
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Speaker 2: I just don't I don't think that.

306
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Speaker 3: I don't think there's a like I don't even know

307
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what the example would be of of some kind of

308
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,559
record that nobody has any issue with. Is it I

309
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,759
don't know, Jordan never lost a finals, Think like that's.

310
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Speaker 1: Just as a high profile example. Should there be an

311
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,639
issue with Lebron being the all time leading scorer, what

312
00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:55,200
would be the Is it, oh, he played too many seasons?

313
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,960
Is it? That's you're gonna find what you want? I

314
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guess maybe is the other and if, and particularly for

315
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,320
this one, the fact that it's a Kobe record that

316
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,240
is now diminished. There's like his fandom is a little

317
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,519
different than a lot of player fan bases. So there's

318
00:15:12,559 --> 00:15:16,039
that part of it too. Why don't you take us

319
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,120
to our next Factor Fiction?

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Speaker 2: All right? Uh?

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Speaker 3: We could, so we kind of covered the other band one. Okay,

322
00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:25,320
uh okay, I'm gonna go with Factor Fiction. Dan shay

323
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,639
Gil just Alexander is the NBA's best player, different than

324
00:15:30,519 --> 00:15:34,960
and that that that's the critical distinction, because I don't

325
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think either of us had a problem with him winning

326
00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:40,279
MVP last year. But I think we both as sort

327
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,519
of in a way that represents popular opinion. Would have

328
00:15:44,559 --> 00:15:47,480
still said, NICOLEA. Jokic is the best player in the end,

329
00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:49,480
best player in the world. I know, I've said it

330
00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:53,200
one hundred times on this podcast. So are we at

331
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,159
a point now where yeahha is gonna win MVP almost certainly?

332
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Speaker 2: Uh?

333
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Speaker 3: Can we get rid of the caveat now? Is he

334
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actually the MVP and he is also the best player

335
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:06,559
in the world.

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Speaker 1: I can't get there, right. I just think that Jokic's

337
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,320
impact on the game is so transcendent when you look

338
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at what he does for those around him. And it's

339
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,279
not to say that Shay is not a transcendent basketball

340
00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:21,120
player when you look at just the way that his

341
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,000
shot profile has changed a little bit, like the way

342
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,720
that he's able to get to a three pointer this year,

343
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the passing this year, the fact that we had we

344
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mentioned this last year, we've mentioned it this year. He

345
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is an active participant. He's not a net It's not

346
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just he's not a net negative. He's a active participant

347
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,919
in just what is the NBA's most terrifying defense and

348
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,840
maybe one of the most terrifying defenses of all time.

349
00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:46,399
I think there's a debate to be had there. But

350
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when I look at what Jokic does in the way

351
00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:51,240
that he just sort of dissects the game, and there's

352
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,840
he's he's I don't I don't want to say he's

353
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not fully appreciated. He's he's clearly fully appreciated. But the

354
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,559
things that he does where it's awesome. So, like we

355
00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:03,440
don't talk about how efficiently he just scores from basically

356
00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:05,720
every level or the level of difficulty on his shots.

357
00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:08,240
It always kind of boils down to the passing or

358
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,440
the on off splits, which I think is fair, But

359
00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:14,160
like that dude is also himself. Maybe this isn't the

360
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,119
best season to say about the Nuggets writ large, but

361
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,640
one of the most clutch players that we've seen it

362
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,799
scores that we've seen of this era as well, and qualitatively.

363
00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:25,079
I think when you look at the depth that the

364
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,799
Nuggets have had around him, this is not you know,

365
00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:29,680
if you want to get in does this matter for MVP?

366
00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:33,240
I don't know what other player in the league could

367
00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:36,000
take this same support same quality of supporting cast, because

368
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,400
if you're building around Shay versus Jokic, it's a fundamentally

369
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different position. So the teams are going to look different,

370
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,160
but if you take qualitatively the same kind of talent

371
00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:47,039
around them, I don't know that he is able to

372
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,039
carry or I don't think any other player is able

373
00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:54,680
to carry, whether it's Luca, whether it's Anthony Edwards, whether

374
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,200
it's Ky Cunningham. At this point, like, I don't think

375
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,039
they're able to carry that cast to the levels Jokic

376
00:18:01,079 --> 00:18:03,319
has explored. We're not even talking about this season when

377
00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:04,839
he's missed a bunch of times like this, When you're

378
00:18:04,839 --> 00:18:07,400
talking about the best player in the NBA or the

379
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,559
best player in the world, I don't think, what is

380
00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:12,920
that a three four? Like how many seasons are you

381
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,759
talking about? Because the MVP award is kind of it's

382
00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:18,240
not always gonna go. We said it last year Shay won.

383
00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:20,559
We thought, I think we both actually had Joki as

384
00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:24,200
r MVP, but it was just understood that with the

385
00:18:24,279 --> 00:18:26,559
Lebron era too, when he didn't win an MVP, it

386
00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:28,640
was just understood though he is still the best player

387
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,119
in the world.

388
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,839
Speaker 3: Charles Barkle I won an MVP when Michael Jordan was playing.

389
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,279
Karl Malone wanted like it happens all the time where

390
00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,119
we just say like okay, cool, but like, come on,

391
00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:39,960
we all know who the guy is. I feel like

392
00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:42,799
is kind of the sentiment, right.

393
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,039
Speaker 1: Right, And I don't loathe this discussion, but I hate

394
00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:48,880
that you spend the time saying, well, like Shay is

395
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,160
just not going to be able to do what we've

396
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,720
seen Yokic do over the past three to four years,

397
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,759
and there's really no way to know for sure, because

398
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,440
he shouldn't be penalized because Okase, he has been so deep.

399
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,920
They also been incredibly injured themselves, and you can make

400
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,200
the case, and especially this season, you should make the

401
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,880
case he's never had a number two option like Jamal

402
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,319
Murray on the team like this season quite literally is

403
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,480
number two basically has hardly ever been available when you

404
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,079
look at j dubb. So I don't like coming at

405
00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:20,240
it from this perspective because it's a hedge if you

406
00:19:20,599 --> 00:19:22,799
if you think Shay Gillen Chucksander's the best player in

407
00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:24,920
the world, not just the MVP, I think when you

408
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,240
still look at the I know he missed some time,

409
00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:30,200
but the minutes discrepancies between him and Jokic and just

410
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,519
some of the Shay clutch stuff, like he's gonna win MVP,

411
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,119
he will probably be my MVP pick when we do

412
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,559
our awards at the end of the season. But when

413
00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:40,039
it comes to the best player in the world, I'm

414
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:43,079
not gonna say Yokic just leap reached the Lebron default

415
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,079
territory for me, but they're still just look at what

416
00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:49,440
we were discussing. Was it a week ago or two ago,

417
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,000
where Jokic has come back, he hasn't necessarily looked like Jokic.

418
00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:55,759
There's been some more turnover stuff. He hasn't been like

419
00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:57,960
through that stretch as efficient and it was, Oh, the

420
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,200
Nuggets are ten points better per a hundre possession with

421
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,319
him right board, and Shay couldn't do that. But like

422
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,039
that is there is a level of defaultism there for

423
00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,799
me because of what Jokic has done over really longer

424
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:10,960
than this, but the half past half decade for sure.

425
00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:17,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm actually it'll be a little bit of

426
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,680
a cop out. But I think today, right now, Shay

427
00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:24,000
is better than Jokic, and I think a lot of

428
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,680
that has to do with since coming back from the

429
00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:31,039
knee injury, Jokic the defense just has been a real negative.

430
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,920
I think in a lot of instances he just hasn't

431
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,759
been quite as good and I think it was close

432
00:20:35,839 --> 00:20:38,440
enough to where like if I get to just if

433
00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:42,400
I get to narrow the lens and focus on today

434
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:45,119
or the last two weeks or the last month or whatever,

435
00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:48,079
I do think Shay has been better than him. So

436
00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:50,400
you know, we woke up this morning, and I think

437
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,400
it's fair to say that Shay is the best player

438
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,200
in the world right now if Jokic is back to

439
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,799
like apex form. And again, Yoki is a little older too,

440
00:20:59,839 --> 00:21:02,519
so it's possible that apex form starts to mean something

441
00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:06,319
different as we go forward for him, maybe, but if

442
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,359
he's back to the best version of himself, I think

443
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,640
I would probably say that Jokic is the best player

444
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:12,000
in the world.

445
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 2: I'm I have to narrow it.

446
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 3: So tightly because it's super close, and I think I

447
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,400
don't think it's unfair to say that. At the moment,

448
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,200
it does seem to be Shay. But then, like you're

449
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,720
talking about, is it a half decade span, is it

450
00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:28,920
the last three years or whatever. I think Jokic still

451
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,480
has it, But in the moment, I'm much more comfortable

452
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,799
than I've ever been saying that Shae has it. It

453
00:21:35,839 --> 00:21:39,559
could go away. It's that close. I think, and I

454
00:21:39,599 --> 00:21:42,480
don't know. It makes me uncomfortable because it is hard

455
00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:46,200
to discount all of the standard arguments for Jokic, the

456
00:21:46,599 --> 00:21:49,880
team lifting capacity that he has and the just total

457
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,920
control and the unique passing of all all the stuff

458
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,000
we always talk about when we discuss him. Shay just

459
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,200
feels better at the moment killer and I don't It's

460
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,200
I don't know. I'm more open to this idea than

461
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:05,839
I've ever been.

462
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,559
Speaker 2: Basically is where I'd leave it.

463
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,559
Speaker 1: I get yeah, And maybe then I'm looking at it

464
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,240
the wrong way because if you were counting like multi

465
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,559
year windows, it's like, well, how how long do you

466
00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:22,200
expand H yeah, that it's tough. And I look, you're

467
00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:25,319
right though, that Shay has been better this season, But

468
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,920
I don't know if that if in my head, even

469
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,240
with Jokic the way he's looked coming back from injury,

470
00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:33,039
I don't know in my head that's just because of

471
00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:35,920
the availabil like am I and I think other people

472
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,920
getting caught up in it. Is it just the the

473
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,599
sample size or is it, Oh, he's just been way better.

474
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,400
And then you also the stuff that creeps in for

475
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,920
me too is I would recognize I think if I'm

476
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,680
building a team. I was just gonna I think it's

477
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,279
easier to build around Shay than it would be Jokic,

478
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,079
And like, how much does that matter to it? And

479
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,559
now we've journeyed far afield from the MVP or who's

480
00:22:58,599 --> 00:23:00,640
who's the best player? But how much does that stuff

481
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,799
matter in either of those discussions? And also are we

482
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,000
having the same discussion? Do you know, like what is

483
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:12,359
the how do you detach MVP from like the best

484
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,960
player in the world because you're you we're saying, okay,

485
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,680
look at a given season and we're saying that is

486
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,599
the MVP. But you're also kind of using that argument

487
00:23:20,759 --> 00:23:23,640
as this year Shay is better than Jokic and therefore

488
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,400
he's the best player in the world. Are those actually

489
00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:29,759
two separate things? I don't I don't know.

490
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 2: Well.

491
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,599
Speaker 3: The other thing that complicates it further is if you

492
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,920
take the approach of I'm starting a team, I think

493
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,160
you might just pick Wemby over both of them, if

494
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,759
you're assuming you get full career or honestly, well, how

495
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:46,319
about this as a thought experiment. You're starting to the

496
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,680
season starts today, and you're trying to get through a

497
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,079
season and win a championship. If you believe in the

498
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,359
growth trajectory of Wemby that like the state he's in now,

499
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,039
in a in eight or ten months, he will be

500
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,160
markedly better than he is now. There's a case that

501
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,119
you pick him still and if you're talking full career

502
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,599
in the next five ten years, it's him easy. But

503
00:24:09,799 --> 00:24:13,920
if it's just starting a season starts today, I mean,

504
00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:18,319
w Minyam is a consideration, I think because if against

505
00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:20,960
those two, I don't know, like that's that's a separate discussion,

506
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,720
I guess. But yeah, I guess it's tough to say

507
00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:28,920
that was insane. Yoki is clearly the best player in

508
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,359
the world right Like I might just be right back there.

509
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,960
You seem to have never left, which is admirable.

510
00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:36,519
Speaker 1: Well, I guess, because I'm just asking is when you're

511
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:40,039
talking about the NBA's best player, and when you come

512
00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:42,599
about the best player in the world, is it just

513
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,400
a single season? Like what does it take to lose

514
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,960
that throne? Because if I think you could say this,

515
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,000
we have not seen We have not seen Apex Jokich

516
00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:53,839
this year, at least for as long as we would

517
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,640
have liked to. That's just that's a fact. Are we

518
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,200
saying that player is on then, because I assume that

519
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,400
that player is still like yo. First of all, Jokic

520
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,519
has also been good enough that he's going to finish

521
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,000
number two or three depend well, if he plays in

522
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,319
enough games two or nothing, Yeah, he's gonna finish second

523
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,720
on the MVP ballot. And so that's also a factor

524
00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:17,799
for me too, to where it's all right, if he's

525
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,640
let go of the rope right now, fine, he's still

526
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,079
the second most valuable player in the league.

527
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:28,079
Speaker 3: Then yeah, yeah, it's I honestly, I think you raised it.

528
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,119
The building a team around thing is an increasingly salient

529
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,480
factor for me because I do think the defense has slipped,

530
00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:41,599
and I do think as great as he is offensively,

531
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,640
we might I've said this before, we might be now

532
00:25:44,839 --> 00:25:47,599
what we thought five years ago about Jokic might actually

533
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,720
be true now after he disproved it by winning a title,

534
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,279
which is that your defense just cannot be good enough

535
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,279
with him in the middle of it. I think that's

536
00:25:56,319 --> 00:25:59,039
resonating much more to me now, where as Shaye, partly

537
00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:02,559
because he plays a far less important defensive position. It

538
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:04,880
just like if he's the first player you put on

539
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,039
your roster, it's not like you're thinking, ah, shit, what

540
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,799
how do we compensate for this? At the other first spots.

541
00:26:09,799 --> 00:26:12,160
With Shay, there's just you just you could do whatever

542
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,400
you want. With Jokic, you really do you need your

543
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,480
Aaron Gordon's. You might need your kcps like you, you know,

544
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:19,920
you might need those types of role guys to make

545
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,799
it work. And and if you don't have elite role

546
00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:26,279
guys that do all the specific things you need, maybe

547
00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:29,039
it can't. You know, maybe that is a real limitation

548
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,440
for him that we sort of haven't had to think

549
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:32,160
about for a while.

550
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: The thing that I don't think because what you're saying

551
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,000
and what I've said in the past, that is a

552
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:39,920
popular way to frame it. What I don't think receives

553
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,799
enough credit is if Jokic did all those important defensive

554
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:45,680
things that are supposed to be done at his position,

555
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,799
what would he look like. The guys who do those

556
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:51,759
things don't look anything like he does on the offensive end.

557
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's that that is that's undeniable.

558
00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:58,920
It's like anyone that has that level, well, there just

559
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,680
aren't other big guys that have that level of responsibility.

560
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,279
So it's it's it's Uh, it's he's unique in that

561
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,799
sense because who's the second highest usage offensive center. Uh,

562
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:12,640
I mean, I don't I'd struggle to even come up

563
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,079
with somebody that that is in like you want to say,

564
00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,640
like Bam, but Bam is such a different player, and

565
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,119
and he's defined by his defense first. So it's an

566
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,000
apples oranges thing. Yeah, it's it's unfair in a lot

567
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,960
of sense, is to ask Jokic to anchor a great

568
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,359
defense given how much he has to do in every

569
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,759
other aspect of the game. It's just it's one. It's

570
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:37,079
what makes for great debate because he and Shaye play

571
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,440
the same sport. Their objectives are the same, but the

572
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,079
things they're asked to do and the things that they

573
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:44,400
can do are so wildly different that we're just never

574
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,319
gonna have like a solidified answer.

575
00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:48,839
Speaker 1: I don't think there does seem to be something by

576
00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:51,759
the way, with Shay's crunch time or I know, Nicole

577
00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:53,359
Jokic has hit a ton of big shots. He's been

578
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,759
one of the most efficient clutch players since he's you know,

579
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,200
been in his heyday. Basically, Shay is just when you

580
00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:02,920
talk about with you know, mythologizing a player or just

581
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,200
anecdotally speaking, they're a killer. That's just that Nuggets, the

582
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:10,480
most recent Nuggets Thunder game. Now, like he was like, no,

583
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:12,559
you just knew that he was gonna hit those clutch shots.

584
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,079
Speaker 3: Man in right and know the the the idea of

585
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,039
there just not being a solution for him. It applies

586
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,880
better more to Shaye than Jokic, because Yokic can't. If

587
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,759
you give Jokic the ball in an isolation above the arc,

588
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,160
he might have something great happen, but it's not gonna

589
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,720
be like what Shay does, where it's just this demoralizing

590
00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:34,240
you can't there's nothing you can do to stop me

591
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,039
scoring ability, which I don't.

592
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,839
Speaker 1: Know when Jokic puts his heads down and like is

593
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,559
using his shoulder or even when he decides to get

594
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:44,000
off in actual contested three where it's like the over

595
00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:47,279
the head shot because he's so big. But aesthetically speaking,

596
00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:49,680
like Shae fits what you're saying.

597
00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, well that was a lot of time

598
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,279
on that and we solve nothing.

599
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: So what do you guys?

600
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,759
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go fiction and I love Shay,

601
00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:00,799
probably not popular. You're you're gonna go fact though, I'm.

602
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,119
Speaker 3: Gonna go fact with the caveat of like in two weeks,

603
00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:04,319
I might have a different opinion.

604
00:29:05,519 --> 00:29:10,119
Speaker 1: Sorry, all right, let's go to grant factor. Fiction nerds

605
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:16,039
ruin the NBA. They're no other reason we couldn't celebrate BAM. Yeah,

606
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,000
tire of all this data floating around only people they're

607
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:22,839
looking at spreadsheets, they're not actually watching the games. Uh,

608
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:25,720
this was I think the BAM discourse was what I

609
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:27,880
added this to our list because of the well, I

610
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,079
guess the straw man that people are because I don't

611
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:32,160
I don't know. Would it be the data people who

612
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,160
are discrediting what BAM is doing or would they be

613
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,279
the one that we're celebrating it. That'd be that'd be interesting.

614
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:40,359
But there's been it feels like the animat It happens

615
00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:42,519
what two or three times a season where it comes

616
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:44,640
back up and it feels like animosity is once again

617
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,640
bubbling to the surface. And I'll give an example, and

618
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,400
I won't say the names because I respect the hell

619
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,880
out of the two people that were involved in this exchange.

620
00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:55,559
But someone was upset about a lineup change that was

621
00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:57,920
made and it was just not like went off and

622
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,359
crashed out, but was talking about it, and then that

623
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,200
person quotes sweet and say, oh, we're using an eleven

624
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,279
possessions sample size when it takes x amount of possessions

625
00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:11,519
to normalize or whatever, which is also factually correct. I

626
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:16,799
think when people say this the nerds ruin the NBA,

627
00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:21,319
there's a level of inauthenticity there, or people being disingenuous

628
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,559
or unfair. But I do think as someone who does

629
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,599
incorporate data a lot and tries to approach as many

630
00:30:27,599 --> 00:30:30,720
things as I can with a both sides ism perspective,

631
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,440
when it comes to the NBA, I don't like. And

632
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,799
I will also note that there is such thing as

633
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:42,519
toxic fandom, but it does. Being irrational and reacting to

634
00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:46,480
the moment is the entire part of rooting for a

635
00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:51,319
name on a jersey. And so if you're upset about

636
00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:53,799
and no, you shouldn't be making threats or like anything

637
00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:56,319
along those lines, but if you want to react and

638
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,680
be a prisoner of the moment to this lineup change

639
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,640
or this team is playing so poorly they're going through

640
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,400
this stretch, I'm out on them. I do think that's

641
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,400
a part of fandom. I mean, even what we all

642
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,920
do here is super unserious at the end of the day,

643
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,079
we're covering a game where grown adults get paid millions

644
00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:16,680
of dollars and I don't want to to put a

645
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,440
ball through a hoop. And I'm not trying to trivialize

646
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,440
it to the point that doesn't matter. People care about it.

647
00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:24,440
But when I say nerds ruin the NBA, I'm wondering

648
00:31:24,519 --> 00:31:28,559
if there's so much information out there, so many different

649
00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:30,799
people on a platform, which is fine. I'm not advocating

650
00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:33,920
that platform should be taken away, but that oversaturation of

651
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,279
information and approaches has is at war with itself to

652
00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:41,359
where it doesn't feel like we can just accept what

653
00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:45,039
some people approach, root for, or cover the game in

654
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:50,440
different ways. We're in a search for this absolutest way

655
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,319
to look at the NBA and objectively evaluate everything that's happening.

656
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:57,480
And I don't I don't want that to ever exist.

657
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.

658
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,519
Speaker 3: I don't think anybody comes to the NBA and ends

659
00:32:04,599 --> 00:32:09,079
up loving it because they were interested in like lineup

660
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:15,920
data or estimated plus minus or synergy tracking stuff. I

661
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,000
think people come to the NBA and sports in general

662
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:21,799
because it's entertaining and it is a turn your brain

663
00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:25,960
off thing and more than that. Maybe I'm just telling

664
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,640
on myself, but the narrative qualities that attach to it.

665
00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: Like if you came up in a.

666
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,599
Speaker 3: Formative stage watching Reggie Miller against the Knicks or Michael

667
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,559
Jordan's Bulls on a Sunday Morning NBC game, you thought

668
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,480
superheroes were real, right, because that's how those guys were

669
00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:47,119
painted and the stories mattered. The Nix hate Miller, Miller

670
00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:50,599
hates the Knicks. That Jordan is indomitable, he will always

671
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,400
make the big shot, he is a larger than life.

672
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,559
Like that kind of stuff is ultimately, I think why

673
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,759
sports are popular. It's like a good stand in for

674
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:03,359
because as we've become more civilized, like you get, you

675
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,799
have to force this competition that you can entertain yourself

676
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,160
by watching. It's like an advanced form of I don't know,

677
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,720
like the Gladiator games or whatever. So like we all

678
00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:15,039
need this. We need this to entertain us because we're

679
00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:18,039
monkeys that evolved and we have all these like primal

680
00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:23,799
things we're interested in. That said, if the narrative side

681
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,839
and the less rational and like just have fun side,

682
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,039
uh makes the game more enjoyable. I think all the

683
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:33,680
numbers and the different like angles of analysis and the

684
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,480
sort of uh, I don't know, hacking of of basketball

685
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:41,079
makes it interesting in its own way.

686
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,279
Speaker 2: And also like it it's how you win. I don't,

687
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:47,319
I don't. I think it's now a requirement.

688
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 3: You must have the talent, you must have a good coach,

689
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:52,319
but you also must have a plan that takes advantage

690
00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:57,279
of you know, marginal edges or market inefficiencies or whatever

691
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,480
like you have to whether and that might mean your

692
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:01,359
shot die as a team, and that might mean the

693
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,759
types of players you scout and draft like that the

694
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:06,519
thing the qualities you value because you've analyzed all those

695
00:34:06,559 --> 00:34:10,840
down to the last detail. So like, have nerds ruined basketball? No,

696
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,360
they've made it better in a lot of ways. They

697
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,280
have made it like kind of more obnoxious. And will

698
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,639
I can throw myself into this because I just like

699
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000
take for example, like, uh, there's a Kobe fan or whatever.

700
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,760
Maybe a more contemporary example, there's a Jokic fan in

701
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,800
Denver that is just not here, not having it when

702
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,920
we're throwing out the catch alls that say, actually Shay's

703
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,840
old Isha's bet, like we're talking past each other because

704
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,760
that fan doesn't care about those numbers. That fan cares

705
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,239
that he's seen Jokic for years and means something special

706
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,039
to him, and like, will not entertain the idea that

707
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:47,039
anyone's better than this guy. And we're trying to be right,

708
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,079
We're trying to say, well, I mean, quantifiably, there's a

709
00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:55,320
player that's better than him, and like nobody's nobody's meeting

710
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,800
in the middle anywhere. So it's like an inherent push

711
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,960
and pulls. It hasn't roomed, it's no change.

712
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: It's fiction, and I do think I still enjoy and

713
00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:08,320
I was not watching the game. I was too young

714
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,960
to watch, like the game in the early nineties, and

715
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,280
even just the my recollections of the late nineties and

716
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,039
like that era is very minimal. I love then when

717
00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:20,800
I first started watching the entire NBA and wasn't just

718
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,119
a Knicks fan in like the early two thousands. I

719
00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:27,199
love what we're seeing more and I probably understand a

720
00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:29,320
lot of it less than I did then, But I

721
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:32,440
like watching it way more than I did then. And

722
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,360
I think even when the clips go around, I'm sure

723
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,400
you saw the most recent one. I want to say

724
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,920
it was the Was it the finals between the Bulls

725
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,079
and the Jazz? Was that ninety eight and it was

726
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,320
people were using an example, It's like what happened to

727
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,679
the game that we love? And I was like, kind

728
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,639
of watching it, I was just like, this sucks to

729
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,280
what it got better. But that's also that's my opinion.

730
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,039
And the other thing I don't understand, there's one this

731
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,440
influx of information or like an exorbitant amount of information

732
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,079
when this much money became on the line, Well, we're

733
00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:05,960
not just talking about what players are making, but what

734
00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:09,400
franchises are worth. This was always going this was the

735
00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:12,000
end result. And you're also you're in this hyper competitive

736
00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:16,280
space where every team, these thirty different teams are looking

737
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,320
for an edge over the other. They're going to turn

738
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,559
over every nook and cranny to try and find that.

739
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:24,920
And I also just wonder I saw a lot of it.

740
00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:27,199
I can't remember the person who tweeted it. It was in

741
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,519
the aftermath of the Band game. I'm assuming they were

742
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:32,280
responding to people complaining about the BAM game. But when

743
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,960
they said nerds ruined the NBA. I do think a

744
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,920
lot of it comes back to what is the trope

745
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:41,360
right now? There's too many threes being taken, and so

746
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,199
do you think that do we honestly think that Steph

747
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,639
Curry wouldn't be Steph Curry if it weren't for nerds,

748
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,519
that he wouldn't have been able to figure out that

749
00:36:51,559 --> 00:36:55,519
what I do is this huge market inefficiency over the

750
00:36:55,519 --> 00:37:00,400
rest of the NBA. I really I would reject that notion.

751
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:05,039
And if if it would have prevented Steph from being Steph,

752
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,159
then that's kind of proof that nerds did not ruin

753
00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:11,320
the NBA, or that this influx of information didn't ruin

754
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,519
the NBA, because Steph is one of the most entertaining players,

755
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:19,119
electrifying players in NBA history. Just to watch on the ball,

756
00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:21,360
off the ball, whatever, I don't care. And so that

757
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,000
that was the other thing I kind of thought about,

758
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,920
to where even if you sort of feel this way

759
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,960
and there are things that are get overthought, and there

760
00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:29,239
might be some people the way they look at the

761
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,000
game or cover the game, that's not your cup of tea,

762
00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:34,599
and that's ultimately fine. I just couldn't get to where

763
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,079
like I didn't even see enough. And the reason I

764
00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:38,679
threw this on theres I didn't even see enough quote

765
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,440
unquote nerds discrediting or not allowing people to enjoy what

766
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:46,519
Bam did. Maybe I'm just not in the comment sections

767
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:49,159
enough then, which hotly I would call that a good

768
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,320
character trait on mine.

769
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 3: I think in so far as I think, in so

770
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,159
far as there was a pushback on the BAM thing,

771
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,960
it was coming from a very different side than the analytics.

772
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,239
It was coming from your old schoolers, or your Kobe devotes,

773
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,559
or like it was. It was coming from an irrational

774
00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:10,519
place as opposed to an analytical place. I think that

775
00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:13,119
I don't think the nerds were mad about the BAM thing,

776
00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:15,360
or I would be surprised if they were. No. I

777
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:19,599
you know, maybe the way you mentioned Steph, but like

778
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,280
if if so, the way that Steph and the Warriors

779
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,679
played under Mark Jackson, who was an old schooler who

780
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,280
was not a fan of what you'd call it analytics,

781
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,360
you could very much imagine him being the one to say,

782
00:38:33,599 --> 00:38:36,199
you know, jump shooting teams can't win a championship, even

783
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:38,639
though he did say that Steph and Clay were the

784
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:41,800
best shooting back Courdever, it took Steve Kerr and a

785
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,679
new coaching staff that was more willing to look at

786
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,440
like what happens if we let guys shoot a lot

787
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,719
more threes? And there were some precursors like the Van

788
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,400
Gundy magic and all that stuff to make So so

789
00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:57,719
did the style the Warriors started playing under kerr ruin.

790
00:38:57,559 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 2: The game or did it make it better? I would

791
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,000
argue pretty wrongly, it made it better.

792
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: So it's just and that was very much fueled by talent,

793
00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:06,000
but also by just we should play differently because the

794
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:07,400
numbers say we should play differently.

795
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: So that's that's a.

796
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,519
Speaker 3: Pretty clear example to me of you know, complain all

797
00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:15,639
you want about like the catch all metrics and this

798
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,079
and that as opposed to just like watching your favorite

799
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:20,480
player and enjoying it. But it's pretty sure there's a

800
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:22,079
lot of value add.

801
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,199
Speaker 1: You mentioned the catch all metrics, We've mentioned the threes.

802
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,239
I'm just curious what the actual biggest gripe or the

803
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,920
belief in data ruined this aspect of the NBA. What

804
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:35,320
is the the most prevalent focus on that? Is it

805
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,840
the three point volume?

806
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:37,199
Speaker 2: Is it?

807
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,639
Speaker 1: I feels like players are just gonna use Cam Thomas

808
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,400
as an example. It's like they're relatively average or below

809
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,840
average efficiency volume scores that don't do a ton elton.

810
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,360
It's I don't want to say it's weeded them out

811
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,159
of the game. But there's definitely not as big of

812
00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:53,039
an appreciation for them as there might have been a

813
00:39:53,039 --> 00:39:55,960
couple decades ago. What is it. I'm just curious as

814
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,039
to what the main my guess would be the three

815
00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:01,840
point volume stuff, but that's not I don't consider like

816
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,480
three being more than two analytics.

817
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: I also don't think it's anything that specific.

818
00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:13,079
Speaker 3: I think I think more broadly, there's a sense that

819
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,280
you're making this less fun. I just like take Kevin

820
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:20,360
Kevin Durant for example, not to hold him up as

821
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,320
some denier of analytics, but he always just likes to

822
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:24,800
talk about like I just go out and hoop, and

823
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,159
I like hoopers, and it's like it's a.

824
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:28,519
Speaker 2: Kind of you know it when you see it.

825
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,159
Speaker 3: I've formed this opinion over my life kind of stance

826
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,719
on what basketball is supposed to look like. And for

827
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,800
people that think that way being confronted with all these

828
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,599
metrics that say, actually Cam Thomas is not a bucket

829
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:44,119
or whatever, Like, yes, I hear you saying he's a bucket.

830
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,920
Problem is he's not a helpful offensive player. And it's

831
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,519
just like you're don't make don't make me question my

832
00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,079
beliefs and don't make me think harder about what's actually

833
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:54,440
good and why right. It's just like there's a resistance

834
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,800
to that, I feel like in a broader sense, which

835
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,880
I get, like if you want to enjoy basketball a

836
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,400
certain way, it's an inner tainment product, like great do

837
00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:05,679
what have at it? But but I understand why people

838
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,639
bristle at just the nerddom of it all because it's

839
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,000
it's inherently it's inherently less fun in that particular.

840
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: Way, and there could be a level of it still

841
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,079
that's intimidating when you're looking at some of the like

842
00:41:18,159 --> 00:41:20,360
lottery proposals I had to read through. I hate having

843
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,079
to read through things like it makes you feel stupid

844
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:25,599
and then you become that's speaking for me personally. And

845
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:28,199
the other thing too that I think is unfair is

846
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:30,320
that we're we're on one level to where there are

847
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,840
people that probably don't have access to all the information

848
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,360
that we do, and there are people that are just

849
00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:38,559
dimensions above us we don't have, like I don't have

850
00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:41,519
a second spectrum subscription. So it's unfair I think for

851
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:44,880
fans of all people who aren't who are maybe only

852
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,159
following one team or just selecting their favorite games and

853
00:41:48,199 --> 00:41:51,199
watching it to just have like to understand that they

854
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:53,679
don't have the data of well, how is Anthony Edwards

855
00:41:53,679 --> 00:41:56,280
passing out of traps from the left side of the floor.

856
00:41:56,519 --> 00:41:59,480
It's it's unread like. First of all, not everyone's watching

857
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,400
the game if you remove analytics from the equation through

858
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,519
that prism. But there's an informational barrier at like separate

859
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:07,480
levels there is just depending on where you are, what

860
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:10,400
you're willing to pay for, or who you work for,

861
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,599
you're just going to have access to different levels of

862
00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:16,000
information and nuance.

863
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think it's it's a complicated issue for sure.

864
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,840
Let's move on to a simpler one. This is more

865
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,320
of an either or thing in the spirit of factor fiction.

866
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,039
Dan Paalo Bank Heero friend of the pod because we

867
00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:31,079
talk about him all the time, is underrated factor fiction.

868
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:34,079
Speaker 1: So I need to go find that from the Rookie

869
00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:35,760
of the Year thing that you have between him and

870
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,880
Jail and Williams that went viral and people hated us

871
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,960
for I'd like to bring that up because that that

872
00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:45,159
Grant Hughes did not think Palo Bank Carrow was underrated?

873
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 2: H is he though?

874
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: Because so the case is, yes, this is a Okay,

875
00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:52,320
hold on, hold on, I want to say because I

876
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,719
was thinking you might go this direction. Uh, the basis

877
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,960
of saying he's underrated is really just one of those

878
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,639
that we talk about sometimes the pendulum swung too far?

879
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:05,000
Is is that is that the case that you're prepared

880
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:06,880
to make that he is in fact underrated?

881
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: No, well, I mean it's part of the case, but

882
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,679
it's he has actual flaws. But what is what if

883
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,119
I harped on every single time we have a Palo

884
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:19,320
Bin Carol talk to the point where our subscribers have

885
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,480
to be just annoyed that I keep saying it. The

886
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:25,320
context of the Orlando Magic around him has never done

887
00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:29,000
made sense right, and it's there are things, yes, there

888
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,000
are things about his game that could be frustrating. But

889
00:43:31,039 --> 00:43:33,920
we talked about Pala Binko before he goes on this,

890
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,239
you know, post All Star tear, where he's been more

891
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,480
efficient and like one of the bigger deals is his

892
00:43:39,599 --> 00:43:43,079
percentage inside five feet is increased by fifteen percentage points

893
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,440
during Like It's cool. Yeah, he shoots seventy five percent

894
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,079
inside five feet. For the rest of his career, he'll

895
00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:49,519
be he'll be pretty good. But some of the things

896
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:52,760
that he was doing even before his efficiency was ticking up,

897
00:43:53,159 --> 00:43:55,920
was getting off the ball quicker, not being any I

898
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,719
always think the balls you talk about the pendulum swinging

899
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,960
in the wrong direction, It felt like that was one

900
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,000
of the examples. Just has felt like he's made a

901
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,159
concerted effort while the Magic have been banged up, still

902
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:09,800
trying to establish themselves, like they haven't had the team

903
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,000
they thought they were gonna have this year. Just you

904
00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:13,679
could see a lot of bunch of different reasons. But

905
00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:16,400
it's Franz Bawder has just been injured, Palovin Carroll was

906
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,360
injured at one point. They haven't had that their core

907
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,800
lineup has not been available. But the effort that he

908
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,880
has done, I think to fit in to their larger

909
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,079
ecosystem was admirable before this turn started happening. And I

910
00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:30,360
would also argue is admirable in the sense that I

911
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,599
still didn't understand Orlando's offensive ecosystem for much of this year,

912
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,559
and so when he's going to play like this as

913
00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:40,000
someone who can still hit tough shots, yes you could

914
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:41,960
quibble about, Okay, if the threes are gonna fall to

915
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,079
a higher eclip, that's a big one. And the other thing.

916
00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:46,239
I would just point to know these were not the

917
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,599
most efficient performances. No, he does not have the longest

918
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:52,599
postseason sample. He's kind of proven that he can be

919
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:57,400
a killer on the league's biggest stage. And that to

920
00:44:57,559 --> 00:45:01,159
me when you were in years We've finished year four

921
00:45:01,519 --> 00:45:04,239
and he's been injuries happened to every team, and so yes,

922
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,920
he's gonna be under a larger microscope. We named him

923
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,519
as a player that has a ton of pressure on

924
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:11,199
him and a bunch to prove. I would agree with that.

925
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,719
You got a max contract the bar officially you're exiting

926
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,320
the he could be anything territory, let's wait for it.

927
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,480
I recognize that urgency. I just feel like there are

928
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:24,079
at least enough pockets, the longer extended pockets or important

929
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:27,320
pockets of time where the player that we've seen is

930
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,239
not the one that is portrayed by whether it's fans

931
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,119
talking has podcasters, writers, whatever, a lot of the time.

932
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 3: So the underrated overrated thing is sort of an impossible

933
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,360
premise because it's who's who is who is establishing the

934
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,719
official opinion on how good.

935
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: Not provably false?

936
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: Right. I I'm just to ask you some questions.

937
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 3: Do you think that he is ever gonna be a

938
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,039
three point shooter that defenses are scared of or have

939
00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:09,440
to guard truly, honestly, could you.

940
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: Give me an example of someone that fits the the

941
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,119
median of that?

942
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,679
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, how about this? Will he?

943
00:46:17,159 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: Will he be a three point shooter that is treated

944
00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:24,960
like Carmelo Anthony was, Yes, you think okay, okay, which

945
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,280
is like towards the end a fairly high bar. Mellow

946
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,800
was almost like a specialist towards the end there, but

947
00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:33,519
like prime, Mellow was guarded very honestly beyond the arc,

948
00:46:33,639 --> 00:46:37,800
I think fair right. Like that's even though his chief

949
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,119
skill was kind of the stuff palo you know, mid

950
00:46:41,199 --> 00:46:42,760
range ISO.

951
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,159
Speaker 2: Attack type of stuff. Correct, Yeah, okay.

952
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 3: Uh if that's one where I can't quite get there.

953
00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:53,199
But I'm what I struggle with with him is this

954
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,440
is his fourth year. As you said this, the context

955
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,159
has never been ideal. He's this is age twenty three season.

956
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,559
Speaker 2: At what point do you give up on a skill development?

957
00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 3: He's like right on the borderline for me with respect

958
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,559
to the three point shooting specifically, I think there's so

959
00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:13,079
much else to recommend him where I guess I would

960
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:16,920
have to say that this is it is fiction he

961
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:20,079
is not underrated. I think he's still closer to overrated

962
00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:25,960
for a couple key reasons. One, I do think take

963
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,480
the name out of it. This player type is overrated

964
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:31,920
to me in general, and I think what I mean

965
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:39,800
by that is primarily a scorer whose offensive value diminishes

966
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,280
a lot if he doesn't have the ball. So that

967
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,840
just means that you have to be so good as

968
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,679
a first option at this thing that this it's not

969
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,800
a niche thing, but this role is what it is.

970
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,519
Speaker 2: You have to be so good at this, and there's a.

971
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: Half dozen guys in the league maybe that are good

972
00:47:57,079 --> 00:48:02,360
enough at it to justify the to offset the lack

973
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,280
of offensive value away from the ball, the like scalability stuff

974
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,960
like I wouldn't say he's a scalable player or hasn't

975
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,199
looked like one so far. And then defensively, he's not

976
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,639
someone that's gonna be defined by his play on that

977
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,960
end ever, So to immediately max this guy and treat

978
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,960
him as if he is capable of being the best

979
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:29,400
player on a good team, like really good team, feels

980
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,960
like too much to me. Still, I haven't seen enough

981
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,400
to justify sort of that status, and the contract's doing.

982
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: A lot of work, yeah, for sure, but.

983
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,159
Speaker 3: That all rolls into the overrated, underrated, properly rated calculus

984
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:47,119
for me. So I get what you're saying, and I

985
00:48:47,159 --> 00:48:50,119
think maybe if I'm wrong, it's because I'm just too

986
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,800
quick to dismiss the possibility that the context matters as

987
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,239
much as it might, and to dismiss the potential for

988
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:56,679
him to.

989
00:48:56,639 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: Get better, because like those both those.

990
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 3: Someone's totally unknowable. The other one is really hard to quantify.

991
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: I think that the most persuasive part of that argument

992
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,519
is kind of the same thing when you look at

993
00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:12,760
the three point percentage or the value off the ball.

994
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,320
When you mentioned Carmelo Anthony, would he be respected on

995
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,760
the same level Carmentine was taking a bunch of these

996
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,280
off the dribble threes that Powell's not going to take.

997
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,639
And so when you look at I think eighty percent

998
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,400
of his career like three pointers have come off assists,

999
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,079
and the fact that he's not a more efficient three

1000
00:49:28,079 --> 00:49:30,320
point shooter, but he can also point to this year

1001
00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:33,760
when he is shooting under thirty one percent for the year,

1002
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,320
or wherever he's at forty one plus percent on catch

1003
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,519
and shoot threes, And so what I struggle with him.

1004
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,320
I could record like, maybe I'm gonna be wrong, Like

1005
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,199
maybe I'm just too high on powower. Maybe it's just

1006
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,239
the I think you mentioned the top. I'm over compensated

1007
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,719
because I think the pendulum has swung too far in

1008
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:53,440
one direction. The push and pull for me is like

1009
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,320
does he need to be in a different ecosystem? And

1010
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,679
you could argue that a great player would figure it

1011
00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:00,840
out regardless, But the magic between their injuries and just

1012
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,400
like the limitations they've always had on the offensive end,

1013
00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:05,639
and what I also don't think he's ever received enough

1014
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:10,199
credit for is the ability to draw fouls, his defense

1015
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,599
in general, being a part of a couple of elite defenses.

1016
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:16,079
Then there's of course the rebounding there. And so I

1017
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:17,920
really wanted this team to go to the playoffs this

1018
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,800
year because that would be the okay, let's but even

1019
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,199
if they make it to the playoffs, are they're going

1020
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,519
to have a fully available They'll always be excuses there.

1021
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:27,079
So it'll be weird. It is objectively weird that we

1022
00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:29,360
might still be having this discussion for a fifth year

1023
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,280
running when he enters next season.

1024
00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean to draw it all the way back

1025
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:38,239
to the Jalen Williams comparison. It's like, I think so

1026
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,159
much of that is still true, which is to say

1027
00:50:41,159 --> 00:50:46,280
that ben Caro's skills force him into this box where

1028
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,480
success is just harder because he's got to be the

1029
00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:51,280
number one option.

1030
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: I think. I think that's the player type he is.

1031
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,760
Speaker 3: Where Williams, if there's a knock on him, it's that

1032
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,320
he can't be that, but he does everything else so

1033
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,880
well that his valu valu is actually higher. So like

1034
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,920
Paolo is either super duper star or not that useful,

1035
00:51:06,159 --> 00:51:09,960
whereas Williams is going to be highly useful for a

1036
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:13,119
very long time because his game is very different. And

1037
00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:16,599
it's just I don't know, it's like players don't decide

1038
00:51:16,639 --> 00:51:18,239
I want to be in this box or that one,

1039
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,039
but they're just in very different boxes and the I

1040
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:22,199
don't know if you want to say it's like a

1041
00:51:22,199 --> 00:51:25,559
degree of difficulty or like the expectations. They're just different

1042
00:51:25,639 --> 00:51:28,800
for ban Caro because he doesn't do all the other stuff.

1043
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,599
Just to use him as an example that like that,

1044
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:33,719
Jalen Williams can do so or has done when he's healthy.

1045
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,119
It's been a shit year for him this year. It's

1046
00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:38,480
just a different thing. It's it's a hard standard to hit.

1047
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:41,360
If you're the type of player that Paolo number one

1048
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,800
overall pick, first option, offensive guy like that, you know,

1049
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,199
that's just a harder thing to be.

1050
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 1: That's all. That's the other thing he's up against is

1051
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,599
because when I did I did a bonus when we

1052
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:52,320
posted our truth Theorem takes my bonus bold prediction was

1053
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,440
because as of right now, I think people would say

1054
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:56,599
Jalen Johnson is going to make more all NBA teams

1055
00:51:56,639 --> 00:51:59,199
than Palo Bancaro, oh of course of their career, and

1056
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,400
I I said the opposite, and maybe there well, he's

1057
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,280
a number one pick. That's not spicy at all, and

1058
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,400
it's you kind of knowing what we've seen from Palo

1059
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,840
Bank Carol, with the perception of him right now, you

1060
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,559
need to divorce that. You could hold him to that bar,

1061
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,400
but it's that doesn't make you know what I mean, like,

1062
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,159
he's never gonna escape. I was the number one pick,

1063
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:19,760
so the bar is always going to be higher. But

1064
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,039
he could turn if he turned into a Jalen Johnson

1065
00:52:22,119 --> 00:52:25,519
level player. Some people might think that's a failure because

1066
00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:28,559
Jalen Johnson is what the thirtieth best player in the league.

1067
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 2: Right or whatever.

1068
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:32,159
Speaker 3: Well, no, but by that logic, he does become better

1069
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,039
because Jalen Johnson is a lot closer to Jalen Williams

1070
00:52:35,039 --> 00:52:36,920
to me than he is to Pallo Bancaro. Where it's

1071
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,239
like you're getting contributions in all these different areas and

1072
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,639
it's pretty easy to build the same It's like the

1073
00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:44,440
Jokic thing. It's like, pretty easy to build a team

1074
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,519
around this guy because you know Jalen. Sure, Jalen Johnson

1075
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:49,599
could be your first option on an ok team, so

1076
00:52:49,679 --> 00:52:52,280
can Polo. But he can give you this other stuff

1077
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,960
that's that that Polo hasn't to the same degree. Yeah,

1078
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,079
it's just it's the role is it's tough. It's almost

1079
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:00,880
like a feast or famine kind of thing. Like he's

1080
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,800
either a huge disappointment or he becomes an MVP candidate.

1081
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,199
There's kind of a no in between for him.

1082
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:12,079
Speaker 1: Uh, it's my pick, right, Sure, let's go to I

1083
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:13,760
don't want to do this. I feel like I've done

1084
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,800
a lot of the anecdotal ones so far, so let's

1085
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,719
do this. Grant the Los Angeles Lakers are a real threat,

1086
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,320
or more of a threat in the Western Conference than

1087
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,880
they're being credited for they do before. They're only two

1088
00:53:26,199 --> 00:53:28,280
as a team that's top four in the conference. I'm

1089
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,639
trying to think of who is the last team that

1090
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:32,880
was top four in the West that we just kind

1091
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:38,920
of dismissed just like, yeah, they're not Yeah, it was

1092
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,039
probably a Grizzlies team, right, it was an iteration of

1093
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:41,360
the Green.

1094
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 2: It could have been.

1095
00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:44,079
Speaker 3: It could have been like even last year's Rockets, I

1096
00:53:44,119 --> 00:53:46,280
think where everybody was like, this is the number two seed,

1097
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,800
but what are we talking about here?

1098
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 2: Uh?

1099
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: But people were talking about Well, maybe I'm not putting,

1100
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,519
but I just I just don't know, Like I feel

1101
00:53:53,559 --> 00:53:56,199
like the Lakers haven't gotten the attention of a team

1102
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,360
that has Luca sometimes has Lebron, has Austin Reeves headed

1103
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,840
towards freeach and see they're top four in the West,

1104
00:54:02,199 --> 00:54:05,480
and I don't know it just that team having who

1105
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,559
it does and being where it is, I thought would

1106
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:10,559
be under more of a spotlight than they have been.

1107
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 3: You've often lamented the lack of coverage the Lakers get,

1108
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,360
and you've been really consistent on that.

1109
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,079
Speaker 1: That's what you're speaking just through this podcast, like they're

1110
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:20,159
just not They're not a like what's the team we've

1111
00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:23,239
talked about the most this year. It's not the way, It's.

1112
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 3: Not so I keep track of every game I watch

1113
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,840
with little tick marks, and the Lakers have a shockingly

1114
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,119
few number of tick marks relative to some other teams.

1115
00:54:30,159 --> 00:54:32,639
I just haven't been interested. And so I think that's

1116
00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:35,039
just proving your point. Are they a real threat to

1117
00:54:35,039 --> 00:54:37,480
win the West? That to me is fiction. I just

1118
00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:40,880
think the defense has been better. This seems to happen,

1119
00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:45,239
I say, every year under Reddick, because he has been

1120
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:45,920
there for that long.

1121
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:46,559
Speaker 2: But there's all.

1122
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 3: Historically, Historically, in the Reddick Reddick era, there have been

1123
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,880
stretches where like the narrative is the defense looks way

1124
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,239
better than it has a right to, and well, I mean,

1125
00:54:58,639 --> 00:55:00,880
now what you know, are we gonna knock them for?

1126
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: And then it doesn't stick.

1127
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,519
Speaker 3: I'm still I'm hanging on to the priors of you

1128
00:55:06,599 --> 00:55:09,000
can't be a serious threat to win a conference if

1129
00:55:09,039 --> 00:55:11,199
your three best players are defensive minuses.

1130
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,679
Speaker 2: You just I just don't. I don't see it.

1131
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,199
Speaker 3: And when there's not another lights out defender on the

1132
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,039
roster to offset that, that you can play without giving

1133
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:22,800
up a bunch of stuff on offense, I mean, maybe

1134
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:23,559
I said too much.

1135
00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 2: I just don't think that Jared Vanderbilt, Marcus Smart, is

1136
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,199
that what we're that's where we're turning too.

1137
00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: It's it is it's the defensive stuff. And you could

1138
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,119
point too. I think they are tenth since the All

1139
00:55:35,159 --> 00:55:38,119
Star Break. My favorite stats are like, well, they're third

1140
00:55:38,159 --> 00:55:41,840
over their last three games. It's like, oh wow, that's incredible, right,

1141
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,920
They've gotten lucky out opponent three point shooting. There's something

1142
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,360
since the break. But I will say when you watch

1143
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,440
them in some of these games, and particularly that game

1144
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,519
against the Timberwolves, there's more of just like a defensive

1145
00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:56,159
connectivity there to where like they're doing a better job

1146
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,039
containing the ball, which makes things easier on the guys

1147
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:00,679
who are gonna be around the BA. Ask whether it's

1148
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:04,679
a DeAndre Ayton or Jackson Hayes. Their rotations like they've

1149
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,159
just been faster to rotate. It looks like Marcus Smart

1150
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:10,519
has been better defensively, I think during the stretch than

1151
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:14,239
I've seen across like the entire season. Also just kind

1152
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,960
of Lukenard seems to have usurped Jake Larevi on the

1153
00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:20,679
rotation and like they're leaning into just more space on offense.

1154
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,320
Maybe like more dynamism on the offensive end. Perhaps that's

1155
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,719
the way to go. What I keep coming back to, though,

1156
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,480
is going to be the defense, because can they maintain

1157
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,039
this level of defense across an entire series. Again, let's

1158
00:56:34,039 --> 00:56:36,360
say they're facing the Timber, well, like, Okay, sure, maybe

1159
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,880
they could against the timber. They're not doing it three times.

1160
00:56:39,559 --> 00:56:42,159
It's just not gonna like they don't have the defensive

1161
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:44,519
personnel to do it. They just they don't. And there's

1162
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:47,599
also just it's really cool that Luca and Reeves have

1163
00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:51,840
dominated the time they've spent without Lebron James. Lebron James

1164
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,559
like his back he played against the Bulls. I did

1165
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:56,119
not watch that game, so I'm just assuming he played

1166
00:56:56,119 --> 00:56:59,480
against the Bulls. It's always available, pretty integral part of

1167
00:56:59,519 --> 00:57:01,719
your team because he's Lebron James, and so you said it,

1168
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:02,960
if you're gonna have all three of them on the

1169
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,119
court at once, I don't know how you build a

1170
00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:07,559
defense that can be even if you're able to like

1171
00:57:08,119 --> 00:57:10,400
keep teams away from the basket more often and not

1172
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,760
allowed them to shoot seventy plus percent at the rim. Okay, great,

1173
00:57:13,159 --> 00:57:16,199
can you reach a level high enough with those three

1174
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:18,800
on the court for how many minutes ago they're all

1175
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,719
gonna play thirty plus Can you reach a high enough

1176
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,119
level defensively over a forty eight minute game where you're

1177
00:57:24,119 --> 00:57:25,679
gonna have two of those guys on the floor at

1178
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:31,079
all times to beat not just the Timberwolves or the Rockets,

1179
00:57:31,559 --> 00:57:34,039
but it's the Timberwolves and the Rockets and the Nuggets

1180
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:35,400
or you know what I mean, Like you're gonna have

1181
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,119
to the West. Is just it's still brutal at the

1182
00:57:38,159 --> 00:57:39,239
top in that way.

1183
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: That's the thing.

1184
00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 3: It's you could you could convince me that they might

1185
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,440
play a game or two, or even an entire series

1186
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,480
that the level defensively that they would need to to

1187
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:51,840
win it are you beating the thunder and or the Spurs?

1188
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,400
And you know, just to say nothing of like Lebron

1189
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,719
and Luca don't have the greatest recent track record of

1190
00:57:58,719 --> 00:58:01,480
holding up over over a full postseason either.

1191
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:02,719
Speaker 2: So there's that like.

1192
00:58:02,639 --> 00:58:06,239
Speaker 3: Even if maybe you could say the best version of

1193
00:58:06,239 --> 00:58:10,000
the Lakers is a team that for a short period

1194
00:58:10,119 --> 00:58:13,199
can really play with and maybe beat anybody, but the

1195
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:16,280
length of time that the Lakers would need to sustain

1196
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,559
that level is just it's not realistic. I just I

1197
00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:22,639
don't think how whether that's health, whether that's defense, whether

1198
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,960
whatever it is, it's just it's it's compared to the

1199
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:27,880
teams they'll have to play. There's no way they hold

1200
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:29,320
that level for as long as it would take to

1201
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:30,000
be real threat.

1202
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,159
Speaker 1: Two things, I think if you polled any of the

1203
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:36,079
playing teams in the Western Conference, they would all say

1204
00:58:36,119 --> 00:58:38,000
they want to face the Lakers in the first round

1205
00:58:38,039 --> 00:58:40,400
versus anybody, like maybe the Rockets creep into that.

1206
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:41,119
Speaker 2: HM.

1207
00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: The other thing is my like real just okay. My

1208
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:49,679
NBA era has begun was basically when Lebron entered the NBA.

1209
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,519
The fact that he has now dealt with arthritis and

1210
00:58:52,599 --> 00:58:56,320
sciatica in the same season is proof once and for all,

1211
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,960
even though it was already dead, that my youth is deceased.

1212
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:02,119
And this is so tough. It's tough for me to

1213
00:59:02,119 --> 00:59:03,960
come to grips with I'm not when I when when

1214
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,079
I's always missing time with arthritis. The sciatica got me

1215
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:08,679
at the beginning of the year, but I was like, ah,

1216
00:59:08,679 --> 00:59:11,800
I'll come back. No, like this is just I'm not okay.

1217
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 2: With a grant thoughts, some prayers. Sorry, sorry to.

1218
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: Hear as my wrist is injured too, Like, yeah, it's

1219
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,920
all it's all unraveling to your picks now though.

1220
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 3: Ooh uh, this one jumped out in me because we

1221
00:59:24,519 --> 00:59:28,519
haven't really talked about them, uh since since he came back. Uh,

1222
00:59:28,599 --> 00:59:32,199
factor fiction, the Celtics should be considered the real favorites

1223
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:35,159
to come out of the East. Uh. Jason Tatum is back,

1224
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,679
he's playing basketball. He's had some very encouraging moments after

1225
00:59:39,719 --> 00:59:42,199
a couple of rough ones in the in his debut,

1226
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,199
and it's really like a tale of two halves. Even

1227
00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:46,000
in that one he's had, he's had a bad half,

1228
00:59:46,119 --> 00:59:49,039
I would say, or like a rusty half. Otherwise, mostly

1229
00:59:49,159 --> 00:59:50,880
most of the signs have been highly encouraging.

1230
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:54,519
Speaker 2: This factor fiction.

1231
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,159
Speaker 3: As phrased, means that it's not the Calves or the

1232
00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:01,440
Pistons or your New York nick that should be the favorites.

1233
01:00:02,199 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: What do we think about this? Because we've we talked.

1234
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 3: Last time, we did talk a little bit about the

1235
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,639
Celtics to the to the extent of how do we

1236
01:00:11,679 --> 01:00:12,119
get here?

1237
01:00:12,599 --> 01:00:14,119
Speaker 2: If you told you know, if you'd told me we

1238
01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:15,599
would be here six.

1239
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,559
Speaker 3: Months ago, I would have just wondered what crazy set

1240
01:00:18,559 --> 01:00:20,199
of circumstances led to it.

1241
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: But it doesn't feel that weird. It doesn't.

1242
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 3: I Like the more I think about it, the more

1243
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,159
I could get on board with this.

1244
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,159
Speaker 2: Are you are you starting to have.

1245
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:33,039
Speaker 3: Kind of those same like little I don't know, Like

1246
01:00:33,079 --> 01:00:35,840
there's this little tug that's just don't overthink it, like

1247
01:00:36,559 --> 01:00:38,920
Boston might just be it.

1248
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: It's and the tug is stronger because of how Detroit

1249
01:00:42,159 --> 01:00:44,480
has struggled since coming out of the All Star break over.

1250
01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:47,239
Speaker 3: And because of what we've said about the Pistons all year,

1251
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,719
Like the flaw is just we just know it.

1252
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 2: We just know what it is.

1253
01:00:51,039 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: Boss.

1254
01:00:51,519 --> 01:00:53,199
Speaker 3: Maybe do you think, Okay, let me do you think

1255
01:00:54,039 --> 01:00:57,920
Because now the Celtics aren't new in a in a

1256
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,639
real sense, but we've seen so little of them at

1257
01:01:01,679 --> 01:01:05,199
full strength that we maybe don't yet know what the

1258
01:01:05,559 --> 01:01:08,800
Pistons level flaw is that we could isolate and say, well,

1259
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,840
it'll be this is why if they lose, this will

1260
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:13,679
be why. Because we can do that for the Pistons,

1261
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:15,559
we could do that for the Knicks, we could do

1262
01:01:15,639 --> 01:01:18,239
that for the Calves and go down the list. Is

1263
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,639
that part of it or the Celtics such a nose

1264
01:01:20,679 --> 01:01:22,760
commodity that like there's there isn't one of those.

1265
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:25,679
Speaker 1: Dah, You're right, I don't know that. I've given thoughts

1266
01:01:25,679 --> 01:01:28,239
of their fatal flo what do we call their fatal.

1267
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 3: Flaw When we were going through those, I just said

1268
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,119
is they don't get to the room enough and they

1269
01:01:31,159 --> 01:01:32,239
don't shoot enough free throws.

1270
01:01:32,239 --> 01:01:34,559
Speaker 2: And even then that pre pretatum.

1271
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:38,159
Speaker 1: I was reaching, Yeah, that was predatum. Yeah, I'm going

1272
01:01:38,199 --> 01:01:42,559
to say fiction just because I probably have. They were

1273
01:01:42,559 --> 01:01:45,199
my preseason picks, so this is me sticking to my priors.

1274
01:01:45,199 --> 01:01:46,639
But at the same time, I do believe it. I

1275
01:01:46,639 --> 01:01:48,679
think the Calves should probably be considered favorite clout of

1276
01:01:48,679 --> 01:01:51,320
the East, and I have two main reasons why. Focusing

1277
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,719
on the Pistons, I really do believe that their crowning

1278
01:01:54,719 --> 01:01:57,280
flaw is going to come back to absolutely nail the

1279
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,440
past playoffs. Maybe maybe I'm wrong with Boston specifically. It's

1280
01:02:01,559 --> 01:02:05,800
really cool what they're doing, but like we're just oh

1281
01:02:06,119 --> 01:02:10,039
Baylor shireman, you go Gonzale, Like the level of dependence

1282
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:12,440
on those types of players or whether it's a Okay,

1283
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,840
let's assume KTA looks fine in the playoffs. How are

1284
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,599
you feeling about that? Backup five spot after that, is

1285
01:02:18,639 --> 01:02:20,760
it like, who are you trusting the most? There? Is

1286
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,840
it Luca Garza? Is it Vouch? You're getting super small?

1287
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,800
How many minutes is Jordan Walsh playing here? And so

1288
01:02:27,199 --> 01:02:29,880
they are there's a level of dependence either on one

1289
01:02:30,039 --> 01:02:33,039
imperfect players and I'm just saying Vouch is really there

1290
01:02:33,159 --> 01:02:36,480
or these unknown commodities up and down the roster, which

1291
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,719
I think is part of what makes them so intriguing.

1292
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,280
Is that Ball or Shireman like he's contributing to this team.

1293
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,800
Now you go, Gonzales is a rookie is doing the same.

1294
01:02:45,599 --> 01:02:49,039
So there's the stuff that they're able to do defensively

1295
01:02:49,079 --> 01:02:51,840
and the cool things that they've integrated into their offense.

1296
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:53,960
And now you just have Tatum back. I think you

1297
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,760
could say looking at the rest of the East, seeing

1298
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:58,760
what the Knicks have kind of done, and then everything

1299
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:03,000
else just below those what for those four teams is okay,

1300
01:03:03,039 --> 01:03:05,039
I don't really need to talk myself and anything there.

1301
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,920
I think it needs to be the Calves still. And

1302
01:03:09,079 --> 01:03:10,800
I'm saying that as someone who would not have traded

1303
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,320
for James Harden if I were.

1304
01:03:12,079 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 3: Right right, So I'm gonna go maybe it's the novelty

1305
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,840
of it, although again is it novel. It's the Celtics.

1306
01:03:20,039 --> 01:03:22,480
They have a title. You know, the core is different,

1307
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:26,199
but the core corps is still there. I don't trust

1308
01:03:26,199 --> 01:03:26,719
the Calves.

1309
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 2: It's just start and stop at James Harden.

1310
01:03:29,559 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 3: I guess if you're trying to come out of the East,

1311
01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:33,000
that's a pretty big hurdle for me.

1312
01:03:34,199 --> 01:03:35,159
Speaker 2: Sorry, you know.

1313
01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:41,199
Speaker 1: The bigger concern for you James Harden or the wing defense.

1314
01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 2: I guess it probably has to be the wing defense.

1315
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm just curious.

1316
01:03:46,639 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: Harden's a part of that though, for what it's worth.

1317
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, the Pistons, we know, it's just we know

1318
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:53,960
what the flaw is going to be.

1319
01:03:54,239 --> 01:03:56,039
Speaker 2: The Knicks. I mean we should have.

1320
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,079
Speaker 3: Done like are the Knicks underrated because some of these

1321
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,719
some of these know, I know, it's just nobody gets

1322
01:04:01,719 --> 01:04:03,199
on nobody's on board with the Knicks.

1323
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it's I'm gonna go fact.

1324
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 3: I just there's something about the Celtics. There's some there's

1325
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:14,199
something about just the what we know and and the

1326
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,559
unknown combined in a very exciting way.

1327
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: It's also very impressive that they're here, just despite being

1328
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,320
so unfairly officiated the entire season as Jallen Brown would.

1329
01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:26,239
Speaker 2: Say really serious.

1330
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,119
Speaker 3: For a second, I was like, yeah, what if what

1331
01:04:29,199 --> 01:04:31,039
if if you agreed before I said it?

1332
01:04:31,239 --> 01:04:32,719
Speaker 1: I finish? That was great.

1333
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,199
Speaker 3: I was already thinking of my next thing, which is, uh,

1334
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,639
now seems less profound as I've had twenty seconds to

1335
01:04:38,639 --> 01:04:39,239
stew on it.

1336
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:40,039
Speaker 2: But what if the.

1337
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 3: Celtics are like you know, they everything we say about

1338
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,719
the heat or really said like three, four or five

1339
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,400
years ago, where you just don't want to see them

1340
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,679
because there's something there and and and don't worry about

1341
01:04:53,679 --> 01:04:55,760
the regular season. If you get them in a series,

1342
01:04:56,159 --> 01:04:57,920
they're gonna be well coached, and they're gonna play hard

1343
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,440
and they're gonna d Like what if that applies to

1344
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,480
the Celtics, except the Celtics could win fifty eight games?

1345
01:05:03,519 --> 01:05:06,079
Also like, what if it's all the heat culture stuff

1346
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:08,880
applies to the Celtics now, but the Celtics actually just

1347
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:10,159
have more talent to start with.

1348
01:05:10,639 --> 01:05:13,639
Speaker 1: I'm standing by my fiction, which is I think rooted

1349
01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:16,079
a lot in maybe things that haven't come back to

1350
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:18,880
bite them yet. Where's if we're gonna talk about, Okay,

1351
01:05:19,039 --> 01:05:22,440
do the Pistons need more playoff scars? Do the Spurs

1352
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,239
as a team need more playoff scars, like you know,

1353
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:27,519
like bayl Or Shireman and Jordan walshouldn't you you Lo Gonzales,

1354
01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:30,960
they need their playoffs SCRs too. But to your point,

1355
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:34,679
when you start going into individual matchups between everyone in

1356
01:05:34,719 --> 01:05:38,719
the East specifically, it does feel like Boston is more

1357
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:42,719
of a potential foil for anyone than any other team

1358
01:05:43,079 --> 01:05:44,599
in the East. And if even you can go through

1359
01:05:44,599 --> 01:05:48,119
and said, who's the toughest matchup for the Pistons, I

1360
01:05:48,199 --> 01:05:49,360
might it might be Boston.

1361
01:05:49,519 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 3: It might be bost In there for sure, because you

1362
01:05:51,519 --> 01:05:53,199
can throw four different guys at CAD.

1363
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,039
Speaker 1: Who's the toughest matchup for Cleveland? Is it Detroit? Or

1364
01:05:56,079 --> 01:05:57,480
is it Boston? Is at New York? It might it

1365
01:05:57,519 --> 01:05:58,239
might be Boston.

1366
01:05:58,360 --> 01:05:59,199
Speaker 2: It might be Boston.

1367
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And then and that's flip it though, and

1368
01:06:02,159 --> 01:06:04,440
say like who do the Celtics really not want to see?

1369
01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:09,039
And it gets a lot harder Hornets. Nobody wants to

1370
01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:12,480
see the Hornets. Yeah, all right, your turn.

1371
01:06:13,599 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna go here because I want you

1372
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:19,280
to talk about it. The Warriors should tank the playing

1373
01:06:19,519 --> 01:06:23,800
factor fiction now, just as a background here there, I

1374
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:25,880
don't think their lottery odds are gonna get any better

1375
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:27,400
than they are right now. They're too far in front

1376
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,440
of the Blazers for me. I mean, maybe they could,

1377
01:06:29,519 --> 01:06:32,519
they really wanted to pull Shenanigans, but you're what I'm

1378
01:06:32,559 --> 01:06:36,039
basically saying is they should guarantee themselves a seven point

1379
01:06:36,039 --> 01:06:38,280
two percent chance at a top four pick rather than

1380
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,320
getting into the first round of the playoffs and getting

1381
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,199
trucked by most likely the Oklahoma City Thunder.

1382
01:06:44,599 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1383
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 3: Okay, so I was gonna ask you because I didn't

1384
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:52,559
have the math. So if you lose in the the NBA, apologize,

1385
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:56,079
if you lose nine the nine to ten game, that

1386
01:06:56,199 --> 01:06:59,239
you're done, and that's where you get your seven point

1387
01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:02,679
whatever percent ants at the at the number one pick, right.

1388
01:07:02,559 --> 01:07:04,559
Speaker 1: Because I don't. I think it still goes by record

1389
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:06,519
after that. So even if they've lost to the Blazers,

1390
01:07:06,559 --> 01:07:08,360
the Blazers could still technically end up in front of

1391
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,159
them in the lottery if they don't make the playoffs.

1392
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:10,679
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1393
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,199
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, maybe it's a little bit more

1394
01:07:12,239 --> 01:07:14,239
than seven point two pers but let's use seven point

1395
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,159
two as the baseline of getting a top four pick

1396
01:07:17,599 --> 01:07:18,280
in the lottery.

1397
01:07:19,159 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, top four, I said, number one. I still am

1398
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:22,960
an old lottery math.

1399
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: I don't so I'm open to it because this season,

1400
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:29,960
nothing's happening. This season.

1401
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,079
Speaker 3: Steph at the latest report, is going to miss at

1402
01:07:32,159 --> 01:07:35,159
least another handful of games. It's getting up towards two

1403
01:07:35,239 --> 01:07:37,079
months that he will have missed by the time he

1404
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:37,719
comes back.

1405
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:38,639
Speaker 2: From this runner's knee.

1406
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 3: And and I mean maybe that's another maybe another factor

1407
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,280
of fiction should be Steph should not play another game.

1408
01:07:45,119 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 2: This year just because what are you doing.

1409
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:54,119
Speaker 3: I I'm gonna just say fiction. I'm open to being

1410
01:07:54,239 --> 01:07:58,079
sold on on if you're willing to say fact. I'm

1411
01:07:58,119 --> 01:08:02,239
open to the argument there. I just say fiction because.

1412
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 2: It's not enough of the math says you should. But

1413
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:07,440
but it's not.

1414
01:08:07,679 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 3: Just sort of like, considering it from the perspective of

1415
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,559
the team's goals and what they've sort of broadcast their

1416
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:17,000
aims are, doesn't make sense that the payoff isn't great

1417
01:08:17,159 --> 01:08:21,039
enough to justify packing it in in what might be

1418
01:08:21,079 --> 01:08:23,760
Steve Kurz last year, I've actually been thinking a lot

1419
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,640
more about that lately. He's got no contract for next year.

1420
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:29,720
I mean, he might look at what's happened this season

1421
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,520
and what the prospects are and say I'm good, you know,

1422
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:34,800
also retire somewhere.

1423
01:08:35,199 --> 01:08:38,279
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem as if negotiating with Joe lacub is

1424
01:08:38,319 --> 01:08:40,319
a good time based off how bad buyers left or

1425
01:08:40,319 --> 01:08:42,600
do you remember the anecdote where he kind of questions

1426
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,319
whether they should have given Steph max money. Oh yeah,

1427
01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:46,840
a contract to go or whatever it was.

1428
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's that, And I just think, more broadly,

1429
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,920
if there's a sliver of a chance you can get

1430
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,479
Steph in a meaningful game, they're gonna they're gonna go

1431
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,479
with it. So I'm gonna say fiction, I think they

1432
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,319
should just see what happens in the plan and not

1433
01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:05,439
not not pack it in. But I mean they might

1434
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,199
not have to pack it in to lose.

1435
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 2: That nine to ten game.

1436
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,159
Speaker 3: That the thing that's really the thing, like you might

1437
01:09:10,159 --> 01:09:12,960
get what you want without, you know, just calling it quits.

1438
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 1: I want to say fact, but it's probably a fiction.

1439
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:18,520
And but I think part of me says that knowing

1440
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,399
there's a chance, they don't need to pack it in

1441
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:24,199
to end up there anyway, just because beyond Steph, it's well,

1442
01:09:24,239 --> 01:09:26,960
what is gonna be going on with Chris Tops at

1443
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,000
that point? But I'm also just I don't know they

1444
01:09:29,039 --> 01:09:31,600
have unless they're planning on making this big train. They're

1445
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,920
not gonna Jimmy Butler back until twenty twenty seven. I'm

1446
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,520
gonna say fact, it's honestly because and look at what's

1447
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,600
happened with the way that the lot like the jumps

1448
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,439
in the lottery, like if you end up they ended

1449
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,199
up jumping into the top four. I'm not tanking as

1450
01:09:45,239 --> 01:09:47,079
a problem. It needs to be addressed, but it's going

1451
01:09:47,119 --> 01:09:49,439
to be addressed after the season for next year anyway.

1452
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,119
I don't know. Man, that comes back to your Steph

1453
01:09:52,159 --> 01:09:54,399
play again this season, and my answer just might be

1454
01:09:55,279 --> 01:09:58,119
I'm good. I know that runs counter two. You should

1455
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:00,520
be going as hard as you can in every pro

1456
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:05,479
like Steph being Steph type of year. Okay, sure, but

1457
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,359
this isn't gonna be that year. If Steph is Steph who,

1458
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,079
you're not beating the thunder. What would it take for

1459
01:10:11,159 --> 01:10:13,399
Golden State to upset Oklahoma City?

1460
01:10:15,399 --> 01:10:19,199
Speaker 3: I mean Steph would have to average forty I think,

1461
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:21,000
And that's your starting point.

1462
01:10:21,039 --> 01:10:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might you know, tank it. That's I'm calling fact.

1463
01:10:25,119 --> 01:10:27,600
Speaker 2: Okay, that's that's that's fair. I get it.

1464
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,079
Speaker 3: It's I'm probably again for the million times I'm not

1465
01:10:30,159 --> 01:10:34,680
rational about the Warriors. All right, Uh, we haven't done

1466
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,680
this yet. This might be an easy one factor fiction.

1467
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,039
The Hornets of Charlotte are the fifth best team in

1468
01:10:42,079 --> 01:10:43,000
the Eastern Conference.

1469
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,319
Speaker 2: Why make the case that this is in fact?

1470
01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 1: Like it's a fact, it's a fact, people. I've seen

1471
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,880
a different like time span cited, and that always gets

1472
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:57,039
its cherry picking. Since Thanksgiving, this is the one that

1473
01:10:57,079 --> 01:11:01,079
I've always harped on. They are second in offense and

1474
01:11:01,119 --> 01:11:05,079
they are sixth in defense. Grant, that is forty nine games.

1475
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,279
That's that we can't just look at a fifty games

1476
01:11:08,279 --> 01:11:11,239
sample size that I don't know a lot of luck.

1477
01:11:11,239 --> 01:11:13,479
Their opponents aren't hitting their threes, which is part of it,

1478
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,399
but like, yeah, the defense is better they do you

1479
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,000
know what changed for this team? LaMelo, Brandon Miller, and

1480
01:11:20,039 --> 01:11:22,880
Conkinnipple were playing at the same fucking time. That is

1481
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:25,079
what we were waiting on. Nipple just came into the league.

1482
01:11:25,119 --> 01:11:27,640
So we've been waiting on LaMelo and Miller to have

1483
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:29,560
more of a sample size together, or for either one

1484
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,159
of them to just gain traction and play in a

1485
01:11:31,159 --> 01:11:34,720
bunch of games. Writ large it's happening and this is

1486
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:36,520
the end result. Now, do I think that they're gonna

1487
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:38,920
win a playoff series if they come out of the

1488
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:40,680
play it, or like make it to the playoffs? I mean,

1489
01:11:41,239 --> 01:11:43,279
tell me who their face they looking back to you, like,

1490
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,960
how is this? What? If it's not them, who is it?

1491
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:48,760
That's my other question?

1492
01:11:49,159 --> 01:11:54,039
Speaker 3: Right, So the logical candidates would be Orlando, Miami. I

1493
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:56,319
think you rule the Sixers out of that conversation at

1494
01:11:56,319 --> 01:11:58,560
the moment, just because of Maxie's injury and embead and

1495
01:11:58,600 --> 01:11:59,840
all that stuff at.

1496
01:12:01,279 --> 01:12:02,560
Speaker 2: Toronto. Do I say Toronto?

1497
01:12:03,159 --> 01:12:03,279
Speaker 1: No?

1498
01:12:03,399 --> 01:12:06,600
Speaker 3: I mean of of So let's say of Orlando, Atlanta,

1499
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:11,000
Toronto and Miami. Miami jumps out at me, and maybe

1500
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:12,960
that's just because we were talking about BAM and heat

1501
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:14,079
culture and all that stuff.

1502
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:15,159
Speaker 2: But I don't.

1503
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the main sure.

1504
01:12:19,359 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not Atlanta. I don't trust Orlando. So

1505
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:29,600
if is it Toronto? Is Toronto's defense right now? So yeah,

1506
01:12:30,199 --> 01:12:34,039
I think I think there's no doubt that the Hornets

1507
01:12:34,039 --> 01:12:39,880
offense is elite and real defense. It's you know, the

1508
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:41,960
three point shooting is what, like we what do we

1509
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:43,920
we killed the Pelicans a couple of years ago, because

1510
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,199
they were just there were this inexplicably good defense because

1511
01:12:46,239 --> 01:12:49,439
of three point of luck. And maybe some of that applies,

1512
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,600
but that version of the Pelicans, just to use them

1513
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,319
as a comparison, did not have Charlotte's offense. Uh, and

1514
01:12:55,359 --> 01:12:57,920
I have no questions about Charlotte's offense. I don't think

1515
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,199
there's a great solution for it that anyone can really

1516
01:13:00,239 --> 01:13:02,520
put out. The thunder Oh, well, you're not gonna have

1517
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,079
to see them unless you make until you make the finals.

1518
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:07,039
Speaker 1: Oh my god, cold you imagine you.

1519
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:08,319
Speaker 2: Know, same thing with Wemby.

1520
01:13:08,359 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 3: You're not gonna have to run into him and solve

1521
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,439
him until the finals in twenty twenty seven and at

1522
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:12,960
the latest.

1523
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:15,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a pretty easy fact.

1524
01:13:16,199 --> 01:13:19,079
Speaker 3: Maybe we're bandwagony, Maybe we're just enjoying the how fun

1525
01:13:19,279 --> 01:13:21,239
this all is. But I think there's a real case

1526
01:13:21,279 --> 01:13:24,239
you said it fifty games where you're like, you have the.

1527
01:13:24,239 --> 01:13:27,520
Speaker 2: Number the profile of a title contender, second and sixth.

1528
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:28,479
What are we talking about?

1529
01:13:29,119 --> 01:13:32,399
Speaker 1: You're the Pistons. Who are you more afraid of facing

1530
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:34,239
in a play It doesn't matter when in a playoff

1531
01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:35,479
series the Knicks or the Hornets.

1532
01:13:36,319 --> 01:13:39,319
Speaker 3: Well, you still have to say the Knicks because the

1533
01:13:39,359 --> 01:13:43,800
Hornets run up against the like we're just we're new

1534
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,359
new here, fellas like that that part of it which

1535
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:50,359
we apply to the Spurs earleist I do, so I

1536
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:56,479
say NIX that said Charlotte could beat Detroit in a

1537
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:57,760
series as possible.

1538
01:13:58,119 --> 01:13:58,600
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1539
01:13:59,199 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 2: It's fun what fun times? I like that we're here.

1540
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:04,359
Speaker 1: Wow. That so that we agreed on that. That was

1541
01:14:04,359 --> 01:14:06,720
the first one we agreed on, and a few my turn,

1542
01:14:07,159 --> 01:14:11,159
let's stick with playing territory ish teams. Grant the Sons

1543
01:14:11,199 --> 01:14:13,680
are the most dangerous non contender in the NBA. And

1544
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,199
so I'm gonna frame this as who doesn't rank in

1545
01:14:16,199 --> 01:14:19,039
the top ten of championship odds. They're like eighteen or

1546
01:14:19,039 --> 01:14:21,680
whatever it is. And you can look at it and say,

1547
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:24,319
are they the like non contender most likely to win

1548
01:14:24,359 --> 01:14:26,319
a playoff series? I think it would be easy to say,

1549
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,359
wouldn't that be the Hornets? But if the Hornets are

1550
01:14:29,359 --> 01:14:32,520
going to run into I guess the Suns are going

1551
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,159
to run into the thunder or number two. And you

1552
01:14:35,239 --> 01:14:38,079
want to just face number two. So we're just open ended.

1553
01:14:38,119 --> 01:14:40,640
The Sons are the most dangerous non contender in the NBA,

1554
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,000
just the way that they've played under Jordan Not in

1555
01:14:43,039 --> 01:14:46,680
spite of certain injuries, they're getting development from Rasher Fleming.

1556
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:50,479
Come on, malawatch right now. Devin Booker just as a

1557
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:54,760
passer this year, even defensively for him. Factor fiction.

1558
01:14:56,079 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 2: I think it's fiction.

1559
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 3: While acknowledging just you know, Jordan not should be on

1560
01:15:03,039 --> 01:15:05,319
everybody's shortlist for Coach of the Year. And just how

1561
01:15:05,359 --> 01:15:08,239
refreshing it's been that the Suns are just winning because

1562
01:15:08,279 --> 01:15:11,520
they play hard and do all the right things. After

1563
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:16,920
all the bs with the Bradley Beal kd Era, I

1564
01:15:17,079 --> 01:15:20,600
still it's just looking at a list of possible alternatives again,

1565
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:25,000
Miami jumps out again Charlotte maybe even if we throw Charlotte.

1566
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: Out right, That's why.

1567
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 3: They don't belong in this conversation. They're a tier above it. Honestly,

1568
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,680
the Clippers, if Kauwhi is gonna be this Kawhi all

1569
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,960
the same ship. We've always said about the you don't

1570
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:39,319
want to see if you go against the Clippers, there's

1571
01:15:39,319 --> 01:15:41,039
a great chance, no matter who you are, you don't

1572
01:15:41,039 --> 01:15:44,000
have the best player on the floor, which is immediately

1573
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,199
that's a that's a red alert for a playoff series

1574
01:15:46,359 --> 01:15:48,079
that a lot of times, the best player on the

1575
01:15:48,079 --> 01:15:51,199
floors team is gonna win, if Kawhi. And then again,

1576
01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:53,439
how many times have we said if Kawhi dot dot

1577
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:58,800
dot who knows some part of me is still skeptical

1578
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,840
of the Suns for a couple of reasons. One, I

1579
01:16:03,079 --> 01:16:04,840
just like Devin Booker has not done it for me

1580
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:08,000
this year. I think they hay Dylan Dylan Brooks is

1581
01:16:08,039 --> 01:16:10,079
way too important and he's gonna be coming off that

1582
01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:11,960
hand and maybe the hand will be totally fine, but

1583
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:16,119
I've expected his offense to be in a massive regression

1584
01:16:16,399 --> 01:16:18,319
all season and I will never stop.

1585
01:16:20,319 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 2: You gotta go.

1586
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 3: And then here's the other thing I just thought of,

1587
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:24,880
Like the Suns do feel like one of those teams

1588
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:29,520
who play at an intensity level of ten in January,

1589
01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:32,880
and not everybody else does that. So I'm gonna throw

1590
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,279
that cliche out there where when everybody's out of ten

1591
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:37,960
in the playoffs, your ten doesn't count for as much

1592
01:16:38,239 --> 01:16:39,800
like they don't have a twelve.

1593
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,319
Speaker 2: To get to. So maybe that that gives me some

1594
01:16:42,399 --> 01:16:43,760
pause as well. So I'll say fiction.

1595
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 3: But it's not an easy call. There's no like obvious

1596
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:48,920
better choice. I don't think since Charlotte is in fact

1597
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:50,439
a contender, I'll.

1598
01:16:50,239 --> 01:16:53,079
Speaker 1: Say fiction because I do think it's the Hornets. But

1599
01:16:53,279 --> 01:16:55,760
I also I think the answer might actually just be

1600
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,720
the Clippers because you mentioned the Kawhi stuff. But oh,

1601
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:02,159
Darius Garland, like you just now of a sudden integrating

1602
01:17:02,159 --> 01:17:04,800
this player who was basic could have been all NBA.

1603
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:06,399
Like you could say the same thing about Harden, but

1604
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:08,960
he's younger and there's like a different type of shake

1605
01:17:09,359 --> 01:17:10,920
to him on the ball, and you can use him

1606
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,119
off the ball more in different spots. I think he

1607
01:17:14,159 --> 01:17:17,199
also veers into the Kawai territory of well if he's healthy.

1608
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:21,920
So that's why the Charlotte's who who feels more bankable

1609
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:27,039
from adorability perspective between the teams that we're considering, Charlotte

1610
01:17:27,159 --> 01:17:31,479
LAC and the something a jail in Green injury now

1611
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:33,560
the Dalen Brooks stuff, so they've been banked up too.

1612
01:17:34,359 --> 01:17:36,680
Speaker 3: It can't be the Clippers because that's just that's like

1613
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:37,920
they're defining characters.

1614
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 2: I think that's it.

1615
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,079
Speaker 3: It might be and with pretty hey, look how far

1616
01:17:42,119 --> 01:17:45,159
we've come, Wemelo. Nobody's worried about the injury with you knock,

1617
01:17:45,399 --> 01:17:48,640
knock on everything. All right, my turn, Let's see is

1618
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:53,479
there any obvious one we've skipped over? Okay, let's do

1619
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:55,960
this the factor of fiction. The Spurs are actually the

1620
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:57,239
West's second best team.

1621
01:17:58,319 --> 01:18:01,239
Speaker 1: I mean, the standings say fast and would suggest that

1622
01:18:01,279 --> 01:18:01,880
as a fact.

1623
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:07,560
Speaker 3: The more fun I think. I don't think there's a

1624
01:18:09,279 --> 01:18:11,079
I don't think there's any chance you would put another

1625
01:18:11,119 --> 01:18:14,760
team above them. We we slobbered all over Minnesota last

1626
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:17,119
time we recorded, and they've just shpited the bed like three.

1627
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:17,600
Speaker 2: Times since then.

1628
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 1: Things classic Minnesota, too classic, So.

1629
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 3: Now no belief whatsoever in the Wolves. We absolutely would

1630
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:28,239
have mentioned them as the as the alternative here a

1631
01:18:28,239 --> 01:18:31,680
week ago. Maybe that's what we should still do. I

1632
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:34,039
think there's I think the Spurs are closer to the

1633
01:18:34,039 --> 01:18:36,199
Thunder than they are to anybody below them. Maybe that's

1634
01:18:36,279 --> 01:18:38,199
the way i'd frame it. I don't think anybody else

1635
01:18:38,279 --> 01:18:39,960
is going to get into that number two spot, and

1636
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:42,760
I think there's a more compelling argument about the Spurs

1637
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,119
actually being very close to the Thunders level.

1638
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,399
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say fiction. I still think it's the Nuggets,

1639
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:52,199
and maybe I'm I need to wait. I'm overwaiting, though

1640
01:18:52,199 --> 01:18:53,920
we had this conversation I think a couple of weeks

1641
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,279
ago about you mentioned the stat about of the past

1642
01:18:56,279 --> 01:18:59,000
fifteen NBA champions, basically all of them, with the exception

1643
01:18:59,079 --> 01:19:01,640
of the lebron Lakers, have had a playoff series victory

1644
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:04,359
under their belt. As a core, there's that element of

1645
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:06,279
it for me. But also I just I respect the

1646
01:19:06,319 --> 01:19:08,359
hell out of full strength Denver Nuggets, but if it

1647
01:19:08,359 --> 01:19:10,560
comes down to a belief in which team is going

1648
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,479
to be more available at that point, uh, just with

1649
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:15,439
some of the injuries that the Nuggets have needed to

1650
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:17,800
deal with and are still dealing with, that's a big one.

1651
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,199
I also just I would just like to point out,

1652
01:19:20,199 --> 01:19:22,800
like it's very cool that Stefan Cassel is shooting over

1653
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,720
forty percent from three since the All Star Break, that

1654
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,079
doesn't just mean it's a new normal. Like should we

1655
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:30,279
just assume that Daron Fox is a twenty nine percent

1656
01:19:30,279 --> 01:19:32,319
three point shooter then, because that's what's gonna happen since

1657
01:19:32,359 --> 01:19:35,359
I think he's thirty one percent whatever it is. But

1658
01:19:35,399 --> 01:19:39,439
that's like I offensively, I still have concerns about dispers

1659
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:41,760
And the other thing too is I don't think defenses

1660
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,720
should do this where Boston did it in their one

1661
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:46,800
game against San Antonio where they just they left Victor

1662
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:49,960
Wembenyama so wide open. They they decided we don't want

1663
01:19:50,039 --> 01:19:52,640
him in the paint. But Victor Webenyama is shooting under

1664
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:55,279
thirty three percent on wide open threes this year, just

1665
01:19:55,319 --> 01:19:58,199
like a weird oddity, And so does that creep into

1666
01:19:58,239 --> 01:19:59,720
it at all? But I'm more so worried about, well,

1667
01:20:00,079 --> 01:20:05,000
how do the Spurs respond when defenses are guarding their youngsters?

1668
01:20:05,039 --> 01:20:08,560
But not just Castle, but even a Dylan Harper, And

1669
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,239
like Wemby, he's just played in big games before, something

1670
01:20:11,279 --> 01:20:13,680
claude to dismiss it. But what does he look like

1671
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:17,479
in the playoffs? So I'm gonna favor the experience element there.

1672
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,119
But what I would ask you, is there even another

1673
01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:23,000
team other than Denver that you would mention next to

1674
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:24,520
San Antonio in this discussion?

1675
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,760
Speaker 2: Well, so, I just I'm looking at it.

1676
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,760
Speaker 3: I'm not looking at it as the second best the team.

1677
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:33,079
If OKAC is most likely to come out of the

1678
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:36,039
West in the playoffs, I'm not sure I would say

1679
01:20:36,039 --> 01:20:38,279
the Spurs are second most likely. I'm talking about like,

1680
01:20:38,319 --> 01:20:40,399
if there's a game tomorrow, I think the only team

1681
01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:43,279
I feel comfortable saying is better than san Antonio is

1682
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:44,359
the thunder?

1683
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,520
Speaker 2: Okay, if you're talking about because.

1684
01:20:47,079 --> 01:20:51,640
Speaker 3: I I do think I do think that there's stuff

1685
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:54,720
the Spurs have not had to solve yet that they're

1686
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,119
only going to learn how to solve by losing in

1687
01:20:57,119 --> 01:20:59,319
a playoff series. I really do think that is what's

1688
01:20:59,399 --> 01:21:01,640
likely to happen, and then they will solve it, and

1689
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:03,359
then this time next year we're going to be talking

1690
01:21:03,399 --> 01:21:06,079
about them who knows.

1691
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:07,520
Speaker 2: You know, in what kind of terms.

1692
01:21:09,159 --> 01:21:12,479
Speaker 3: I think you have to throw Denver in there. If

1693
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:14,439
you're talking about who could come out of the West,

1694
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:16,640
I think you have to throw the Wolves in there,

1695
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:18,560
even though we jinxed them really badly.

1696
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:21,840
Speaker 2: And I think that's probably where it stops.

1697
01:21:22,079 --> 01:21:28,680
Speaker 3: Because even with the uncertainty of like Houston, No, even

1698
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:30,880
with the uncertainty of the Spurs.

1699
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,239
Speaker 1: Who's more likely to win a playoff series this year?

1700
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:35,439
The Rockets are the Lakers. That would have been a

1701
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:36,000
good question.

1702
01:21:37,359 --> 01:21:41,079
Speaker 2: That might be a matchup dependent one that's close.

1703
01:21:41,159 --> 01:21:43,399
Speaker 3: But I would just say that I do believe the

1704
01:21:43,399 --> 01:21:48,920
Spurs are not fully cooked yet, and they still to

1705
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,920
me are like no worse than the third or fourth

1706
01:21:53,039 --> 01:21:55,520
most likely team to come out of the West, which

1707
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:57,520
I don't know. I don't know how that squares. That's

1708
01:21:57,560 --> 01:21:58,199
just how I feel.

1709
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:02,359
Speaker 1: They're more picked them to win the title. The other

1710
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,560
day he went out of you, which is just it's we.

1711
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:08,279
We are not we. I trashed him for saying the

1712
01:22:08,319 --> 01:22:10,159
Spurs are gonna win fifty plus games this year. I

1713
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:11,840
don't know if I took there, I don't remember. What

1714
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:13,399
they're over under was that we have to go through that,

1715
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:17,039
the fact that we're in March. And he could say

1716
01:22:17,039 --> 01:22:21,560
something like that and it's bold for sure, but that's.

1717
01:22:21,319 --> 01:22:23,720
Speaker 2: A heck and no I get it.

1718
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 3: I So I've been thinking lately about how some of

1719
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:32,880
my preseason predictions about Wemby were very common, by the way,

1720
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,680
not just me. He's gonna be a top five MVP candidate,

1721
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:37,760
he's gonna win Defensive Player of the Year, He's gonna

1722
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:42,239
do all this, and then I picked him for some ridiculously.

1723
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:42,359
Speaker 2: Low win total.

1724
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,239
Speaker 3: And friend of the Pod Bill just asked me, like,

1725
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,039
how can both of these things happen? Like it's you know,

1726
01:22:48,079 --> 01:22:51,119
because if Wemby is this right, then they're gonna win

1727
01:22:51,199 --> 01:22:55,079
fifty whatever games and they're gonna like and hindsight, like, yeah,

1728
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:59,359
that's right, I should have just the logical extension of

1729
01:22:59,399 --> 01:23:01,680
Wemby being as great as I and everybody else thought

1730
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:03,520
he would be, is that the Spurs would be this

1731
01:23:04,039 --> 01:23:04,720
and here we are.

1732
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 2: It's we overthought it a little bit.

1733
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:09,000
Speaker 3: I think there was no scenario where Wemby would be

1734
01:23:09,079 --> 01:23:11,800
this great and the Spurs would be a thirty seven

1735
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:12,399
win team.

1736
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:14,439
Speaker 2: That just isn't how it could work.

1737
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 1: We've reached the point of Wemby, by the way, where

1738
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:18,439
there are corners of the Internet that are wondering if

1739
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,760
he can win Defensive Player of the Year because the

1740
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:24,039
way he defends isn't ethical enough, just because his physical

1741
01:23:24,079 --> 01:23:25,479
tools are so noveless.

1742
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:29,399
Speaker 3: Yes, come on, so now so are like, does Tyree

1743
01:23:29,399 --> 01:23:31,439
s Maaxy have to slow down because it's not fair

1744
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:32,479
that he's so fast?

1745
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think he's missing time? Fast?

1746
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's a terrible take.

1747
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:40,960
Speaker 1: Let's do one more to see if we could squeeze

1748
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,720
in a mini stat padding afterwards. Which one we gonna Okay,

1749
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:47,880
here's this one. So zach Low mentioned on his pod

1750
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:51,239
that there is some traction gaining towards lottery reform that

1751
01:23:51,279 --> 01:23:55,960
includes incentivizing winning, not by disincentivizing losing necessarily making the

1752
01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:59,720
penalties harsher, but making wins contribute to lottery odds a

1753
01:24:00,039 --> 01:24:03,199
certain point in the season next year, So fact or fiction,

1754
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:08,039
NBA lottery form will have wins count toward draft lot

1755
01:24:08,039 --> 01:24:10,039
of odds in some form next season.

1756
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:14,319
Speaker 3: I think it's fact we've gone over the potential solutions,

1757
01:24:15,399 --> 01:24:17,680
you know, the sticking points are like, what is the

1758
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:21,680
cutoff date? How do you how exactly do these how

1759
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:22,600
much does each.

1760
01:24:22,399 --> 01:24:23,079
Speaker 2: Win help you?

1761
01:24:24,159 --> 01:24:26,560
Speaker 3: What kind of unintended consequences are going to be? It

1762
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,199
does just feel like this is the way that that

1763
01:24:29,239 --> 01:24:33,000
things are trending. So I think it'll happen, you know.

1764
01:24:33,119 --> 01:24:35,920
I'm what I'm gonna say, though, is that it's a

1765
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:38,399
half measure. I just as long as there's going to

1766
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:40,319
be an incentive to lose at any point in the season,

1767
01:24:40,359 --> 01:24:44,680
teams are gonna are going to follow where the incentives lead.

1768
01:24:45,159 --> 01:24:48,159
This might help, though this is maybe a step towards

1769
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:51,239
I don't know, a slightly better result.

1770
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:54,640
Speaker 1: Would you have a date that you would prefer to

1771
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:56,680
see where they like if they are gonna I don't

1772
01:24:56,720 --> 01:25:02,199
want to say arbitrarily split October thirtieth. Do you think

1773
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:05,439
the unintended consequence of that would be we see some

1774
01:25:05,479 --> 01:25:09,399
really egregious early season. Yeah, tanking. I'm curious which team

1775
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:11,439
would be most likely when you look at their current

1776
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:14,279
roster landscape, that they're just gonna come out and look

1777
01:25:15,079 --> 01:25:18,760
so bad. Is it the Kings resting domas bonus out

1778
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:20,359
load managing him out opening Night?

1779
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I was it's gotta be a team that

1780
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:26,520
has well, it'd probably be the same teams, don't you

1781
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:30,119
think because you're not doing it? If I was just

1782
01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:33,039
thinking of, say Lebron is back with the Lakers and

1783
01:25:33,159 --> 01:25:35,119
they do a you know what, why don't you take

1784
01:25:35,159 --> 01:25:40,279
the first fifteen games off, just extend healthy work on

1785
01:25:40,319 --> 01:25:44,000
that sciatica. Well, they they're gonna try to make the playoffs.

1786
01:25:44,079 --> 01:25:46,079
This is this is terrible for them. This isn't about

1787
01:25:46,119 --> 01:25:49,079
the lottery odds. So I think the same teams that

1788
01:25:49,159 --> 01:25:52,079
are tanking now will be tanking next year. It'll just

1789
01:25:52,079 --> 01:25:56,720
be doing it at a different time. Which maybe that's

1790
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,319
just like objectively way better because.

1791
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,279
Speaker 1: More people are watching the NBA after the Super Bowl

1792
01:26:02,279 --> 01:26:04,800
and Christmas anyway, right right, and your product's better than

1793
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:07,720
and and honestly, everybody's so excited about the beginning of

1794
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:11,159
the season just naturally that maybe that is when.

1795
01:26:11,039 --> 01:26:13,399
Speaker 2: You want to sneak in a little, a little like.

1796
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:15,520
Speaker 3: I don't need to watch this game because everybody's excited

1797
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:16,439
about all the other stuff.

1798
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:16,800
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1799
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,359
Speaker 3: It's not a perfect solution by any stretch. It's okay,

1800
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:21,279
I'm alright with it.

1801
01:26:21,319 --> 01:26:24,039
Speaker 1: If this is what happens, I don't know, I might

1802
01:26:24,079 --> 01:26:26,000
go fiction because I don't know if the NBA has

1803
01:26:26,039 --> 01:26:27,800
the guts to do it, or if they do it. It

1804
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:30,119
feels like it's going to be wins after March first,

1805
01:26:30,159 --> 01:26:33,760
which are just sort of late. Like how much does

1806
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:37,760
that materially change anything? Maybe accompanied with some of the

1807
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:42,239
draft pick limits or that they're planning on putting in place, or.

1808
01:26:42,159 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 3: Maybe they come down really hard with the fines and

1809
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:50,319
the violations of the player participation stuff during that the

1810
01:26:50,399 --> 01:26:54,520
stretch where normal tanking is beneficial. Maybe that's like the

1811
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:57,840
other edge of the sword, is they really just they're

1812
01:26:57,880 --> 01:26:59,960
just thrown out half million dollar fines left and right.

1813
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:03,119
Speaker 1: Do you think that would change anything?

1814
01:27:04,239 --> 01:27:07,920
Speaker 3: I've already said probably not, just because you know you're

1815
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:11,399
just if so safe from like the Jazz's perspective, You're

1816
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:14,840
just trying. You're buying your way to the number one pick.

1817
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:16,920
You're just willing to pay that price if it gets

1818
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:18,359
you a better shot.

1819
01:27:18,119 --> 01:27:19,600
Speaker 2: At number one in the draft.

1820
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:23,119
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I'm just I think I'm like you.

1821
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:26,279
There will be some shenanigans, and it'll be very strange

1822
01:27:26,319 --> 01:27:29,560
that they're happening in November and December, and who knows

1823
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:30,600
how deep into the season.

1824
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:31,560
Speaker 2: It's gonna be off putting.

1825
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: All right, So I went in fiction, you went fact

1826
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:37,880
that we had a lot of we disagreed more than

1827
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:38,439
we normally do.

1828
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:38,560
Speaker 3: That.

1829
01:27:40,239 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, the most contentious this podcast has been time for

1830
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:52,159
Mini stat Padding. Will do a regular length stat Padding

1831
01:27:52,199 --> 01:27:55,600
hopefully at some point next week. But we've got some

1832
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,279
there's some themes. There are streaks and scoring records that

1833
01:27:58,319 --> 01:28:00,399
are being throwing around, so let's let's see if we

1834
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:02,800
can go through some of them. I will start with

1835
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,239
this one for you, Grant. I believe we have a

1836
01:28:05,319 --> 01:28:07,279
joint one we could do, but I have this one

1837
01:28:07,319 --> 01:28:13,760
for you. Shake Gilges Alexander broke Wilt Chamberlain's consecutive twenty

1838
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:17,560
point scoring streak for the regular season only by clearing

1839
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,600
the one hundred and twenty six game threshold. There have

1840
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:25,359
been twelve other players that have had twenty point streaks

1841
01:28:25,399 --> 01:28:29,520
in the regular season that have lasted at least fifty games.

1842
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,640
How many of them can you name? I will give

1843
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:33,720
you three strikes?

1844
01:28:34,199 --> 01:28:36,479
Speaker 3: All right, Well we'll go usual suspects to start. I

1845
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:38,560
assume Jordan did it at least once.

1846
01:28:39,319 --> 01:28:42,560
Speaker 1: Jordan actually did it twice. Okay, I met John is

1847
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:44,119
only one place I think? Did you think I met

1848
01:28:44,119 --> 01:28:46,239
Michael Jordan? I was talking about DeAndre. We'll just take

1849
01:28:46,239 --> 01:28:49,720
Michael Jordan. Thanks for the bonus. Happy accident by you,

1850
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:58,640
uh Lebron. I'm gonna guess that is strike one? What oh?

1851
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:05,039
Speaker 2: What a bum? Overrated? Okay? Whoa do you? Did?

1852
01:29:05,079 --> 01:29:05,279
Speaker 1: You?

1853
01:29:05,319 --> 01:29:05,399
Speaker 2: So?

1854
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:08,359
Speaker 1: It's since Wilt so we're talking we could have it's

1855
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:14,399
it's other than Shay, other than Shay. Oh, gimme so Wilt? Correct?

1856
01:29:14,399 --> 01:29:15,640
Do you know how many times he did it?

1857
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know, entire seasons plus I don't a lot.

1858
01:29:20,359 --> 01:29:23,680
Speaker 1: Four times and one of the craziest Wilt stats I've

1859
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:27,039
I've heard hat tip iron Eagle is so his streak

1860
01:29:27,079 --> 01:29:29,560
did span through the playoffs, but when he got to

1861
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:34,159
Game one and twenty seven, he was ejected three minutes

1862
01:29:34,159 --> 01:29:36,399
in or whatever it was, and that's why he ended up.

1863
01:29:36,399 --> 01:29:40,479
And then he proceeded too after that game then go

1864
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:42,840
on a ninety two game streak, so he could have

1865
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,359
hit like where. I don't even remember what was the

1866
01:29:45,399 --> 01:29:46,840
actual streak it was after.

1867
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,039
Speaker 2: That Hwy six or something like that.

1868
01:29:49,279 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 1: His streak was one twenty six. But then he went

1869
01:29:51,039 --> 01:29:55,079
on a ninety two game streak immediately after he got ejected, so.

1870
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:58,560
Speaker 3: He probably had He probably had nineteen points in those

1871
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:01,600
three minutes, so it was really close, you know, based

1872
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:02,600
on the way things.

1873
01:30:02,359 --> 01:30:03,079
Speaker 2: Work back then.

1874
01:30:03,279 --> 01:30:06,520
Speaker 1: So you have two with one strike, we got Jordan.

1875
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:13,039
Speaker 3: I'm tempted to go way back again and just I'll

1876
01:30:13,079 --> 01:30:16,960
maybe am I burning a strike here? I'll say Oscar Robertson.

1877
01:30:17,119 --> 01:30:19,239
Speaker 1: That is correct. You weren't burning anything. He did it

1878
01:30:19,279 --> 01:30:20,520
once for seventy nine games.

1879
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:25,560
Speaker 2: It's pretty close to burning it. I don't if it's not.

1880
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,159
Speaker 3: If Lebron didn't do it, I'm still gonna say Kevin

1881
01:30:28,239 --> 01:30:29,600
Durant he.

1882
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:30,199
Speaker 1: Did it twice.

1883
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:36,159
Speaker 3: Okay, let's see who else. Just there's got to be Oh,

1884
01:30:37,079 --> 01:30:38,359
surely Harden did.

1885
01:30:38,199 --> 01:30:39,039
Speaker 2: It in Houston.

1886
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:40,800
Speaker 1: He did it once.

1887
01:30:41,239 --> 01:30:45,079
Speaker 2: Okay, how many do I have left?

1888
01:30:45,279 --> 01:30:49,399
Speaker 1: You have gotten? So you have gotten five of the twelve,

1889
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:50,800
So there are some last twelve.

1890
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:52,119
Speaker 2: There's no way we're getting a twelve.

1891
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:56,279
Speaker 3: Who else had a bunch of fifty twenty point games

1892
01:30:56,319 --> 01:30:56,880
in a row?

1893
01:30:57,119 --> 01:30:57,800
Speaker 2: I can't believe it.

1894
01:30:58,199 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 1: One fairly obvious one?

1895
01:31:00,279 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 2: Oh Kareem?

1896
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:02,199
Speaker 1: That is correct?

1897
01:31:03,039 --> 01:31:04,239
Speaker 2: All right? Uh?

1898
01:31:04,279 --> 01:31:07,039
Speaker 3: Okay, so now we're half We're halfway there. I can

1899
01:31:07,079 --> 01:31:10,079
fail and feel okay about it. Who else would just

1900
01:31:10,239 --> 01:31:12,000
constantly get twenty?

1901
01:31:13,159 --> 01:31:14,000
Speaker 2: How about Carmelo?

1902
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:16,079
Speaker 1: That is incorrect? Strike two?

1903
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:23,199
Speaker 3: That's unfortunate. I should probably there's probably somebody further back

1904
01:31:23,279 --> 01:31:25,520
that I need to be thinking about.

1905
01:31:26,159 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 2: Uh. Did did Jerry West do it?

1906
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:34,520
Speaker 1: He did? He did it once. He's the last inclusion

1907
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:36,439
on this list, by the way, fifty two game streak?

1908
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:43,319
Speaker 2: Oh just barely? Okay? Uh? How about now?

1909
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:47,119
Speaker 3: So like Shay, you can miss games right because he

1910
01:31:47,199 --> 01:31:50,119
missed the streak extends. It just matters for games you

1911
01:31:50,159 --> 01:31:51,319
played correct?

1912
01:31:51,359 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 2: Did Joel Embid do it?

1913
01:31:53,479 --> 01:31:57,840
Speaker 1: That is incorrect? Strike three? The name he missed? Elgin

1914
01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:02,960
Balor did it twice, Kobe did it once, Alan Iverson

1915
01:32:03,039 --> 01:32:06,520
did it once. Bob McAdoo did it once, and George

1916
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:07,399
Gervin did it once.

1917
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:09,800
Speaker 3: Okay, Gervin, I thought about Kobe is the one I

1918
01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:11,479
offered like that was that's stupid.

1919
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:13,399
Speaker 1: That's still just sorted. I mean it's a long streak.

1920
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:13,920
That was hard.

1921
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, hey and good one. What else

1922
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:19,000
you got?

1923
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:22,319
Speaker 1: Did you want to take us through the Kobe streak?

1924
01:32:23,079 --> 01:32:24,399
Which Kobe record might fall?

1925
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:25,279
Speaker 2: Okay?

1926
01:32:25,359 --> 01:32:28,399
Speaker 3: So, Dan recently, I don't know if you heard about

1927
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:32,800
this Bam out of bio broke Kobe Bryant's post Wilt

1928
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:34,680
record of eighty one eighty three.

1929
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:38,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I know, I know ethically or in ethically. Well,

1930
01:32:38,159 --> 01:32:39,640
there's some debate on that. Do you want to do

1931
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:43,439
twenty minutes on how Yeah, the opinions differ.

1932
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:44,600
Speaker 2: I guess. Uh.

1933
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:49,079
Speaker 3: So that makes me wonder what other historic marks by

1934
01:32:49,199 --> 01:32:52,359
Kobe Bryant are going to fall, if any, And maybe

1935
01:32:52,399 --> 01:32:54,800
I'll just run through them and you can just give

1936
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:58,279
me let's say that yes or no, and then you

1937
01:32:58,319 --> 01:32:59,600
could nominate the player.

1938
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:01,119
Speaker 2: I would say.

1939
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:05,840
Speaker 3: Okay, So Kobe has the modern era record with four

1940
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:08,119
straight fifty point games.

1941
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:11,000
Speaker 2: Is that one gonna fall? And who's gonna break it?

1942
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:15,560
Speaker 1: That one's gonna fall at some point. And if we're

1943
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:17,600
looking at active players that I think are mostly I

1944
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:19,319
would nominate Shay.

1945
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1946
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 1: The level of dependent like he's on a great team

1947
01:33:22,199 --> 01:33:24,560
and maybe they wouldn't play him in garbage time, but

1948
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:27,039
the level of offensive dependence is, oh, he might just

1949
01:33:27,399 --> 01:33:29,720
if he gets to forty, that would is like they

1950
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:31,479
might just keep him in there. So I could see

1951
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:33,640
him if he got two straight fifty point games, which

1952
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:36,439
I actually think he's done before, if he's anywhere close,

1953
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:38,039
like on the third, and then get to the fourth,

1954
01:33:38,079 --> 01:33:39,600
I think they would. I think they would keep him

1955
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:39,920
in there.

1956
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:41,199
Speaker 2: I would nominate.

1957
01:33:41,279 --> 01:33:43,359
Speaker 3: I think Shay is probably the right pick. I do

1958
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:47,439
think it will fall. I mean Anthony Edwards jumps to

1959
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:49,399
mind as someone that might be able to do it.

1960
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know why if.

1961
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:53,359
Speaker 3: I mean, Luca is another one that could just like

1962
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:56,239
next year, if if his role is somehow even bigger,

1963
01:33:56,279 --> 01:34:00,760
if that's a real possibility, I've steph. He had a

1964
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:03,680
couple like high forties against the Spurs this year. It's

1965
01:34:04,039 --> 01:34:06,600
I just throw him out there as someone I can

1966
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:09,119
imagine it being someone that runs incredibly hot from three,

1967
01:34:09,399 --> 01:34:10,720
because man, it's hard.

1968
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 1: To That's why Edwards is a good Steph would be

1969
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:15,479
a better one if he wasn't gonna turn thirty eight

1970
01:34:15,479 --> 01:34:18,560
like right after we recorded this. But Edwards would be

1971
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:20,520
a good one because he has the three point volume

1972
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,319
and the foul drawing ability where Shay is the three

1973
01:34:23,359 --> 01:34:26,159
point volume is like kind of there, but it's kind

1974
01:34:26,159 --> 01:34:28,800
of not where Edwards is more likely to take ten

1975
01:34:28,800 --> 01:34:30,119
plus three point attempts in a game.

1976
01:34:30,359 --> 01:34:34,239
Speaker 3: Sure, all right, Kobe is the oldest player to score

1977
01:34:34,359 --> 01:34:36,840
at least sixty points in a game. He did it

1978
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:39,479
at age thirty seven and two hundred and thirty four days.

1979
01:34:40,079 --> 01:34:43,159
So is somebody older than that gonna get sixty?

1980
01:34:43,199 --> 01:34:44,680
Speaker 2: And if so, who would that be?

1981
01:34:45,479 --> 01:34:48,880
Speaker 1: Yes, calling my shot, Steph Curry, you'll do it before

1982
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:49,880
he retires done?

1983
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:53,199
Speaker 3: I mean, book, it's it's it's like, I feel better

1984
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:57,119
about that one than almost probably any other on here.

1985
01:34:59,159 --> 01:35:02,319
KD Like he's I mean, that's that's a that's a

1986
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:03,199
strong one.

1987
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:05,119
Speaker 1: As long as he doesn't have to play in crunch

1988
01:35:05,159 --> 01:35:06,960
time in that rockets all, I think it'll be prod.

1989
01:35:07,039 --> 01:35:08,520
Speaker 2: Right. The problem is he has to do it two

1990
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:09,920
points at a time, and that's just hard.

1991
01:35:09,960 --> 01:35:13,039
Speaker 3: That's a lot of field goals, all right, I think

1992
01:35:13,039 --> 01:35:15,840
that's a that's a pretty straightforward one, all right, Kobe

1993
01:35:16,359 --> 01:35:19,680
is the youngest All Star ever at age nineteen and

1994
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:21,079
one hundred and seventy days.

1995
01:35:23,399 --> 01:35:28,960
Speaker 1: Beatable before the NBA gets rid of the one and

1996
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:29,479
done role.

1997
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:32,119
Speaker 2: I don't know, this one feels pretty safe.

1998
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's gonna stand. I think the

1999
01:35:35,079 --> 01:35:37,439
NBA needs to change the draft rules for that to

2000
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:40,600
because even if even if someone will Cooper Flag have

2001
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:44,439
qualified and he did, like he's getting voted in as

2002
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:46,960
a reserve if it happens, or I guess Wemby could have,

2003
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:50,279
could he because coaches gravitate towards players with experience, and

2004
01:35:50,319 --> 01:35:52,079
so you almost need to do it as a starter.

2005
01:35:53,319 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 3: And like, I think the fan vote being diminished is

2006
01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:59,920
a huge barrier to this, to this ever getting broken.

2007
01:36:00,159 --> 01:36:02,920
Like you could imagine there's a I mean, there's a

2008
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:05,159
real world where Cooper Flag got voted into the All

2009
01:36:05,159 --> 01:36:07,319
Star Game this year, a fan vote counted for as

2010
01:36:07,359 --> 01:36:10,279
much as they used to. But by the way, Cooper

2011
01:36:10,279 --> 01:36:13,479
Flag right now is younger than Kobe was in his

2012
01:36:13,479 --> 01:36:16,039
first All Star Games, it is more beatable.

2013
01:36:16,319 --> 01:36:18,439
Speaker 1: It's like if aj Dibnsa just comes in in light

2014
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:20,119
I don't even know how old he isn't.

2015
01:36:20,039 --> 01:36:22,680
Speaker 3: But well, you'd have to have guys like flag reclassified,

2016
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:24,720
so he kind of was a year younger than he's

2017
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:27,640
supposed to be. Okay, it feels like most kids are

2018
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:29,880
going the other way, where they're doing eighth grade twice

2019
01:36:30,359 --> 01:36:33,239
as opposed to jumping ahead a year for athletic purposes,

2020
01:36:33,279 --> 01:36:36,760
So that one, I think that one might hold up.

2021
01:36:37,279 --> 01:36:42,239
How about how about this one? Among guards all time?

2022
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:46,800
Kobe's thirty three thousand, six hundred and forty three points eight,

2023
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,119
three hundred and seventy eight free throws and four and

2024
01:36:50,199 --> 01:36:53,920
ten turnovers are records? Are any of those gonna fall

2025
01:36:54,640 --> 01:36:57,760
among guards? So it's not, you know, points.

2026
01:36:57,680 --> 01:36:59,560
Speaker 1: I think the points will fall at some point. I

2027
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:01,720
don't know who you're gonna I mean, could Luca get there,

2028
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:04,640
we're gonna consider him a guard. It feels like that

2029
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:07,319
will have to fall at something like the especially unless

2030
01:37:07,319 --> 01:37:10,399
the NBA does something to rein in three point volume.

2031
01:37:10,439 --> 01:37:12,479
Wouldn't you think that's the one most likely to fall?

2032
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:15,119
And I guess by extension you could say free throws

2033
01:37:15,159 --> 01:37:16,359
would would fall then too.

2034
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:21,720
Speaker 3: But Harden right now is like four thousand, forty five

2035
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:25,520
hundred points away. So we're talking a couple more good

2036
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:28,039
seasons from Harden and he's, Oh, he's gonna do it

2037
01:37:28,039 --> 01:37:31,079
then Yeah, So I mean maybe maybe as he slows

2038
01:37:31,079 --> 01:37:33,960
down even more, it'll take three to four. But if

2039
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:37,920
he plays right up to age forty, he can get there.

2040
01:37:38,439 --> 01:37:41,199
Westbrook's not gonna catch him. He's at twenty seven thousand.

2041
01:37:42,199 --> 01:37:46,199
The Rozan's not getting there. STEP's too far away. I think, Yeah,

2042
01:37:46,239 --> 01:37:48,000
so it's probably gonna be hard, and then we're gonna

2043
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:51,000
be waiting for like the Anthony Edwards class. And because

2044
01:37:51,279 --> 01:37:53,880
maybe Shay, I don't know, Shakefield, like he got too

2045
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:54,600
late of a start.

2046
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:56,359
Speaker 1: Do you not? Do you not think Luca will get there?

2047
01:37:58,600 --> 01:37:58,800
Speaker 3: Is he?

2048
01:37:59,119 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 2: I guess he's a guard. Luca might get there.

2049
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:03,279
Speaker 3: I'm not of the mind that Luca is gonna have

2050
01:38:03,319 --> 01:38:06,239
a real like Luca's not playing until thirty eight, I

2051
01:38:06,279 --> 01:38:06,800
don't think.

2052
01:38:06,920 --> 01:38:08,560
Speaker 2: And I mean he's.

2053
01:38:08,359 --> 01:38:11,520
Speaker 3: Got a head start because he his career average is

2054
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:18,279
twenty nine, so he's averaged. But he only has two

2055
01:38:18,399 --> 01:38:21,479
two thousand point seasons and he might get a third

2056
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:25,079
this year. So you've got to you've got to rack

2057
01:38:25,159 --> 01:38:28,840
up the two thousand point seasons to get. I think

2058
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:33,000
Nko is correct about Luca's durability and habits and leadership.

2059
01:38:33,039 --> 01:38:35,319
All right, this is the last one I have. Kobe

2060
01:38:35,319 --> 01:38:39,640
Bryant has sixteen and sixty one career points at Staples Center.

2061
01:38:40,359 --> 01:38:43,760
That is the most points by any player in an arena,

2062
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:47,760
in a single arena. Is anybody gonna break that?

2063
01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:48,760
Speaker 2: And who might it be?

2064
01:38:49,279 --> 01:38:52,279
Speaker 1: Now the name of the arena changing? Does that matter

2065
01:38:52,319 --> 01:38:52,640
at all?

2066
01:38:53,119 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 3: I would say no, Just yeah, I would say, I

2067
01:38:57,479 --> 01:39:01,560
guess it's It's almost more like is is somebody gonna

2068
01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:04,760
get more than sixteen to one sixty one at home

2069
01:39:05,079 --> 01:39:05,840
for their career?

2070
01:39:06,199 --> 01:39:08,760
Speaker 1: I gets, well, And what about So how do you

2071
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:12,520
take the case of Steph who goes from Oracle That

2072
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:14,800
it's a different arena. So that's a different arena, doesn't.

2073
01:39:15,239 --> 01:39:17,199
Speaker 3: I mean, just to put it in perspective, steps at

2074
01:39:17,239 --> 01:39:19,800
like twenty three thousand points for his career, So if

2075
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:22,840
he's an even split, he's still like five thousand points short,

2076
01:39:23,039 --> 01:39:25,399
even if you give him both arenas.

2077
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:30,119
Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, I I want to hear what

2078
01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:31,199
you think about this one.

2079
01:39:31,399 --> 01:39:32,880
Speaker 1: You kind of need to pick someone who's gonna spend

2080
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:35,760
their entire career with one team. The other thing, which

2081
01:39:35,800 --> 01:39:39,560
is like, what about Jokic and ball arena.

2082
01:39:40,319 --> 01:39:43,479
Speaker 3: That's an interesting one. Did he get an early enough start.

2083
01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:46,720
Let's just let's just look up what his career total's at.

2084
01:39:47,319 --> 01:39:51,319
He's got, he's got He's barely a thousand ahead of

2085
01:39:51,439 --> 01:39:54,720
Kobe's home total for his career, yo, because is at

2086
01:39:54,720 --> 01:39:58,239
seventeen six seventy three. If you evenly split, that give

2087
01:39:58,319 --> 01:40:00,560
him nine thousand points. So he's got a SCO seven

2088
01:40:00,640 --> 01:40:03,680
thousand more points at home. So that's probably like fourteen

2089
01:40:03,720 --> 01:40:07,119
thousand more points for his career. I mean, good luck, buddy,

2090
01:40:07,199 --> 01:40:08,920
I don't I don't think he's got le Bron.

2091
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,319
Speaker 1: Split his career in too many different places to even

2092
01:40:11,359 --> 01:40:11,960
be on that.

2093
01:40:12,399 --> 01:40:15,359
Speaker 2: We're back to Edwards again. I think Edwards keeps coming up.

2094
01:40:16,159 --> 01:40:18,399
Speaker 1: But does Tatum have a chance?

2095
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:22,439
Speaker 3: Adam is an interesting one that I didn't think about him.

2096
01:40:22,479 --> 01:40:25,760
Losing an entire season for the most part, definitely doesn't help.

2097
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:29,279
Kobe never really had anything quite like well until towards

2098
01:40:29,319 --> 01:40:31,840
the end of his career. I obviously had the same injuries.

2099
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:35,760
So Tatum is sitting at, oh, how many career points

2100
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,720
do you think Tatum has? Knowing that Kobe scored sixteen

2101
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:46,079
k at Staples whole career for Tatum, Uh, nine thousand.

2102
01:40:46,399 --> 01:40:50,039
It's you because of the way I framed the question.

2103
01:40:50,119 --> 01:40:52,640
You went lower than you should have. But thirteen thousand

2104
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:56,000
career points for Tatum. This is his age twenty seven season.

2105
01:40:57,119 --> 01:40:59,760
He's not doing it. There's no I don't think there's

2106
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:01,880
any I don't think. I don't think this one gets broken.

2107
01:41:02,239 --> 01:41:04,680
I think mainly because you need to be on one

2108
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,680
team for a ridiculous number of years.

2109
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:08,920
Speaker 2: I think that's the real barrier.

2110
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:12,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's yeah. That I think that's the toughest one.

2111
01:41:13,359 --> 01:41:16,119
Speaker 3: It might be right because the fifty pointers might go

2112
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:20,039
oldest to score sixty. That's definitely gonna get broken. Youngest

2113
01:41:20,079 --> 01:41:22,720
All Star that one that's up there too.

2114
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:26,359
Speaker 1: I think if the NBA ever changes the one and

2115
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:29,560
done rule, it'll then maybe, ye.

2116
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:32,079
Speaker 2: Maybe we got a shot. Yeah, yeah, all right, that

2117
01:41:32,159 --> 01:41:33,439
was good. Yeah and hard.

2118
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:35,239
Speaker 1: Are you ready to take this out of here though?

2119
01:41:35,359 --> 01:41:35,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2120
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:37,600
Speaker 3: Thanks everybody for listening, for watching. Remember to rate for

2121
01:41:37,680 --> 01:41:40,119
view and subscribe. Join our discord links for that in

2122
01:41:40,159 --> 01:41:42,279
the YouTube and podcast description. Got a mail bag episode

2123
01:41:42,279 --> 01:41:46,039
coming up soon ish, time to submit do that on

2124
01:41:46,079 --> 01:41:48,479
our discord or I don't know.

2125
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been delayed, so you have until you might

2126
01:41:50,680 --> 01:41:52,479
have another week to get your questions. And we've got

2127
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:54,239
a bunch of good questions. But goes to four.

2128
01:41:54,399 --> 01:41:57,079
Speaker 3: If you haven't already, tell your friend Sillier Mmy's shout

2129
01:41:57,119 --> 01:41:57,800
sprinkling like Keeno.

2130
01:41:57,800 --> 01:41:58,840
Speaker 2: Apologies. Jared Allen