Speaker 1: What is up, Fellowsichos, I am dan fa Valley coming
at you with the one, the only, this certified fantabuous,
mister Grant Hughes. We are gathered here today to play
NBA Factor Fiction. Felt like a good way to tackle
some current events, what we've seen going around in the
hashtag discourse, but also just some post All Star Break
later season developments or conversation topics that are floating around
out there as well. We don't even need to get
into the criteria or how we delict factor fiction. Do
we believe it or do we not? It's pretty simple.
And so with that factor fiction, Grant, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: Is it good?
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, Grant factor fiction is doing well the
NBA Factor Fiction.
Speaker 2: That's a fact.
Speaker 3: And I apologize to absolutely nobody for doing well. That's
s bolstra. Have you seen the clip of that you
must have by now. Yeah, it's pret pretty great. That's
pretty great. Like I just think, thank you for that. Uh,
how how are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'll turn it, I'll turn it around on you.
Speaker 1: Look, I was whining to you about how I'm so
much of an adult that I've messed up my wrists
the other night and it's just thrown off my recording
this on a Friday for a Saturday, and it's just
thrown off my entire This happened Thursday night. It's thrown
off my entire day and probably weekend. I'm just so
grumpy about it. If I like move around workouts, it's
just it's a bad time for me. Some cranky at
the moment, which means all my tanks are probably going
to be I'm gonna skew towards the negative, the most
negative reactions possible, I think, or what is coming?
Speaker 2: Great? We have cranky Dan ready for ready to just proclaim.
Factor fiction. Do you want to start? Do you want
to pick the first one? My balling one?
Speaker 1: I think we have to start with a specific one. Anyway,
I don't know if it's I'll pick it okay. Factor Fiction.
Grant bam Adebio's eighty three point game was less ethical
than Bryant's eighty one point game frame with however you
want bad. It was bad for the league. He should
have stopped at eighty one as a tribute to Kobe,
because everything is a tribute. It needs to be a
tribute to Kobe for some reason. Factor of Fiction.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's fiction. I so we haven't really
talked about this. When I saw the little crawl about it,
I wasn't watching that game.
Speaker 2: I really like couldn't.
Speaker 3: I couldn't process it. It's because I think I don't know,
I don't know like how to categorize this among other
anomalousts scoring outbursts like this, other than to say it's
got to be.
Speaker 2: The weirdest one for so many reasons.
Speaker 3: And the first reason is that, like it's Bam autobio,
which is like anyone who's listened to us for any
amount of time. No, we're both in the bag for Bam.
We think he's great, we love him, we're higher on
him than basically everybody. But for him, I think I
texted you, if you'd given me fifty guesses of who'd
scored eighty three points, Bam would not have been among
those guesses. And I was texted with somebody else and
said the same thing, and the response was he wouldn't
have been in my top one hundred, which is not
a knock on Bam. It's just that he's not the
type of player that you would expect to have a
scoring outpurst like that, so that makes it weird. The
fact that it's against the Wizards makes it weird because
what is that team. The fact that it's a Heat
player that did it is also weird because the Heat
are all about all the right things, and if you're
of the belief that this is an unethical thing, well
this is the wrong thing. Oh the heater should be
above that Heat culture. All that stuff is just weird.
That's not a value judgment on is it good or
bad or anything. It's just this was a deeply strange
occurrence that even when we get some distance from it
and you see the leaderboard for single game scoring posted
in the future, you're gonna see his name at number two,
and still I will still do a double take.
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3: Before we we'll get to the value judgment of it,
because that's what the question the factor fiction is focused on.
But I want to know what your takeaway is just
in general, because we haven't talked about it.
Speaker 1: I was shocked that it was him, but it was.
It was an objectively cool moment. You're cutting away from
the Peacock game to go look at Heat Wizards, right, No,
like that game was circled on basically nobody's calendar to
actually watch, and it was.
Speaker 3: Only it was it was an immediate skip for me
because it's the Wizards and it's late in the season.
Speaker 2: I'm not watching that game like.
Speaker 1: When there's other when there's better alternatives on, for sure.
And the other part was is even when I had
seen that he had thirty four points in the first quarter,
it was like okay, and then you so kind of
what was going on at halftime and I came I
didn't tune in into like the midway of the fourth quarter,
and then I went back and watched a lot of
like everything that he did, like there after the fact
that was so cool though, like to just you scored
eighty three points, and it was when you go back
and watch and this nowind of gets into the ethicality
of it. The first quarter was just Bam on fire
five three pointers, and then like throughout the rest of
the game, the rest of his touches, they were just like, yeah,
they're especially in the fourth quarter when he have sixteen
free throws. I think that's what people are gonna harp
on at the forty plus free throws.
Speaker 3: Record attempts and makes in a single game, which is
was that's the weirdest part. Forgot to mention that that's
the weirdest part of the whole thing, that he took
forty three free throws.
Speaker 1: Right and then like it doesn't look seven of twenty
two from three. No, that doesn't look super efficient. But
like for the first I don't know more than half
of that game, it was a lot of well, like
the Wizards, the Wizards were the Wizards, and it was
when I I recalled seeing them be more aggressive against
him than they actually were for a lot of like
there were some of there was like a baseline trap
that they had that I didn't understand. I think was
in the start of the third quarter or whatever it was.
But then like by the end of the game, they're
triple teaming like on the inbounds because they're clearly trying
to stop it from happening. I think that element of
it is cool, and you could equip it with some
of the fouls felt a little ticky tech, which like
he's going right at them, they're moving their feet and
he was. But what I was actually trying to say
is during the meat and potatoes of that game, Bam
was just overpowering everybody that was kind of on him
and he actually, you know, Alexar, I thought it points
like did okay, And the most egregious valing came not
from Alexar in that game. But it's like Trisan Vuksovish
isn't going to stand a chance against him, Anthony Gill
isn't going to stand a chance against him. He had
a couple just left handed drives from the wing or
the baseline. It was just this like Bam was like
in his attack mode bag that night, and this is
also coming was it last week or two weeks ago
where he basically said I'm tired of being in the
fucking playing and so it was kind of cool that
it dovetailed with Was this just his moment of I'm
going going to get it? Really though the first half
was when you go back and watch what he was
able to do. There nothing about that felt like you
could sense that, oh we might be on our way
to like sort of a spec night from him. But
that just sort of felt like basketball being played and
Bam was dominating at least.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think anyone that is really bent out of
shape about this game for ethical reasons or like integrity
of competition any any of the high minded sort of
criticisms or the idea that this, this particular thing like
flies in the face of some set of norms that
are sacred. Is anyone who thinks that it is totally
ignoring the fact that anytime you have a game like this,
in so far as there just to say, like a
record setting or record threatening game, or just a particularly
like just a wild scoring night, it's always a little weird.
It's always there's always some element of the of teammates
feeding a player of the ball that they wouldn't otherwise,
Like some some of the purer aspects of the of
the game competitively do get compromised. Toby's eighty one was
not dissimilar. It's just like the Lakers, like no one
else was going to shoot in that game, and it
was just it turned into something other than basketball. Klay
Thompson when he set the record for fourteen threes, the
Warriors were fouling, like it was just every time there's
something like this, they're shenanigans. Because you can't score eighty
three points in a modern NBA game without shenanigans. You
can't make fifteen threes without shenanigans. You can't if someone
was like threatening forty rebounds or something, his teammates would.
Speaker 1: Get out of the way so he could get the
forty three rebounds. Would they miss the.
Speaker 2: Game? Yeah? Would they miss the nature of this kind
of game. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: So can I object with a stat just to back
up what you said? This is not from me, this
is from at stat Center. He wrote in Wilt's one
hundred point game, Philly was letting New York score quickly
in the fourth quarter so they could get the ball
back and feed the big man. Kobe took thirteen of
LA's seventeen field goal attempts and all thirteen of their
free throw attempts in the fourth quarter to get to
eighty one, and they just close it by saying He
closed by saying, no one's ever scored seventy plus, quote
unquote ethically, what Brad Bam did is insane and joyous,
which I think is just those are facts backing up.
But the just the other thing I'd like to note.
But before you go on, did you see a lot
of But I guess I still in my own silo
that I saw the Sam A mc take from the
Athletics that he should have stopped at Cody Kobe's eighty one,
which all the specter in the world for the stuff
that Sam Amic does, that's one of the most Essa takes.
Speaker 2: Disagree, get this clout out disagree.
Speaker 1: But I didn't see a lot of I saw a
lot of people trolling the idea that it was an
ethical more than I did, which I should have started
the conversation to where was this an actual discussion. I'm
sure in corners of the internet or sports talk radio,
but I didn't see a lot of I saw a
lot of people celebrating it or trolling the idea that
you wouldn't celebrate it.
Speaker 3: This is like such a statement on the on the
modern condition of media consumption and the need to perpetuate
news cycles.
Speaker 2: Because I think you're exactly right.
Speaker 3: There was a straw man construction of the uptight basketball
purist knocking this to a much greater degree than there
was an actual vocal reaction that matched that. Like that
it was it was easy to do the Sports center
or the talking head show clip where you set up
oppositional sides of like somebody has to say that this
was unethical or this was besmirched the game somehow, just
so someone else can say all the things we just said.
Speaker 2: It's just like, I really I don't know what.
Speaker 3: The percentages would be, but the percentage of sincere outrage
versus this was cool and a lot of times when
this happens it's a little weird. It's got to be
like ten to ninety. I think there's just an overwhelming
majority that are saying the things that we're saying. To
this extent of this is cool. Nothing sacred here. Anyone
else that's ever come close to this is kind of
bullshitted around to get there too. It's cool, Like it's
not the end of the world. I think that's the
vast majority of people. But because it's a huge news story,
you have to set up this like concocted, you know,
adversarial debate about it. I think I think a lot.
I think you're right to have that intuition that nobody's really.
Speaker 1: That mad about it, and what would there Let's let's
say he shot like twenty free throws or something. Do
you think then presumably the discourse would have been, well,
he took too many threes or like, because if he's
not making those free throws, they're probably coming from it
just there would have been ways to poke holes. What
is the ethical way to get to the and there's
this isn't technically an ethical you know, but at the
same time, what would have been the quote unquote ethical
way to even get to this? Because I think people
would have said, he either had the ball to he
could have scored it all on two pointers. Would that
have made it and very minimal free throws? Does that
make it ethical? Did it need to come against a
top ten defense? Did it like? Did he need to?
And I just I don't know what the ethical way
would have been like even in people's trying to map
out the scenario where this was so wholesome that there
was only a one percent percent of people figuring out
a way to discredit it.
Speaker 3: Exactly what does it look like if he gets eighty
three and nobody has for a second the thought of well,
I was kind of let's throw some asterisks up there
that was it's the Wizards all the free throws, like, oh,
that's like, what's.
Speaker 2: That even look like?
Speaker 1: The only way I could see that happening is if
it's a quadruple overtime game or something like that, and
then then there's as just credit it basically it's so basically,
can we say no one factor fiction, No one will
ever score eighty points without some measure of again vocal
vocal minority, but some measure of like a little Sian
being aimed at it. Yeah, yeah, there it's I mean,
if it happened, what is that is the game? And
then let's say regulation this final score is probably like
one seventy two to one sixty nine or something. People
are gonna be no defense was played or what happened
to it? Like the game that you wouldn't be able
to win in that SCE area.
Speaker 2: I think it was cool.
Speaker 1: I think overall it was good for the end because
it was just this moment. And I mean, if you're
gonna keep the season as long as it is and
you're gonna complain about the qualt, like what are.
Speaker 2: We what's let us have this?
Speaker 1: Let us once in a while, and what is the
point of Like why would I didn't understand the and
even sam A make acknowledge in this piece that maybe
this is rooted in nostalgia, which is also that's a
different type of question. I think we have a factor
fiction topic that kind of just steps on the toes
for a little bit, So I recognize that part, but
I just don't what are we doing? You had a
chance to go in the record books, but directly behind Wilt.
And it's also just because no one really saw Wilt's
one hundred point game, like you're you're now this.
Speaker 2: Goodhead as saying, aren't there who knows? Right?
Speaker 3: But I really do feel like I've come across several
uh questions about the actual like was it actually one
hundred because you know box scores then just looking at
like it's an it's some dude with a pencil considering
the era. That's like writing things down on the sideline.
And so assist totals and rebound totals are nuts, like
assist inflation was happening in Utah twenty five years ago
or thirty years like, it's not that old of a thing.
So that throw that in there too, Like I don't
know that anyone to one hundred percent degree of certainty
could say that he actually scored one hundred points. So
just it's all of these things are There's there's no
perfect record, right, I don't I don't think I think
any crazy high total in any statistical category is gonna
be questionable in some regards.
Speaker 2: I just don't I don't think that.
Speaker 3: I don't think there's a like I don't even know
what the example would be of of some kind of
record that nobody has any issue with. Is it I
don't know, Jordan never lost a finals, Think like that's.
Speaker 1: Just as a high profile example. Should there be an
issue with Lebron being the all time leading scorer, what
would be the Is it, oh, he played too many seasons?
Is it? That's you're gonna find what you want? I
guess maybe is the other and if, and particularly for
this one, the fact that it's a Kobe record that
is now diminished. There's like his fandom is a little
different than a lot of player fan bases. So there's
that part of it too. Why don't you take us
to our next Factor Fiction?
Speaker 2: All right? Uh?
Speaker 3: We could, so we kind of covered the other band one. Okay,
uh okay, I'm gonna go with Factor Fiction. Dan shay
Gil just Alexander is the NBA's best player, different than
and that that that's the critical distinction, because I don't
think either of us had a problem with him winning
MVP last year. But I think we both as sort
of in a way that represents popular opinion. Would have
still said, NICOLEA. Jokic is the best player in the end,
best player in the world. I know, I've said it
one hundred times on this podcast. So are we at
a point now where yeahha is gonna win MVP almost certainly?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 3: Can we get rid of the caveat now? Is he
actually the MVP and he is also the best player
in the world.
Speaker 1: I can't get there, right. I just think that Jokic's
impact on the game is so transcendent when you look
at what he does for those around him. And it's
not to say that Shay is not a transcendent basketball
player when you look at just the way that his
shot profile has changed a little bit, like the way
that he's able to get to a three pointer this year,
the passing this year, the fact that we had we
mentioned this last year, we've mentioned it this year. He
is an active participant. He's not a net It's not
just he's not a net negative. He's a active participant
in just what is the NBA's most terrifying defense and
maybe one of the most terrifying defenses of all time.
I think there's a debate to be had there. But
when I look at what Jokic does in the way
that he just sort of dissects the game, and there's
he's he's I don't I don't want to say he's
not fully appreciated. He's he's clearly fully appreciated. But the
things that he does where it's awesome. So, like we
don't talk about how efficiently he just scores from basically
every level or the level of difficulty on his shots.
It always kind of boils down to the passing or
the on off splits, which I think is fair, But
like that dude is also himself. Maybe this isn't the
best season to say about the Nuggets writ large, but
one of the most clutch players that we've seen it
scores that we've seen of this era as well, and qualitatively.
I think when you look at the depth that the
Nuggets have had around him, this is not you know,
if you want to get in does this matter for MVP?
I don't know what other player in the league could
take this same support same quality of supporting cast, because
if you're building around Shay versus Jokic, it's a fundamentally
different position. So the teams are going to look different,
but if you take qualitatively the same kind of talent
around them, I don't know that he is able to
carry or I don't think any other player is able
to carry, whether it's Luca, whether it's Anthony Edwards, whether
it's Ky Cunningham. At this point, like, I don't think
they're able to carry that cast to the levels Jokic
has explored. We're not even talking about this season when
he's missed a bunch of times like this, When you're
talking about the best player in the NBA or the
best player in the world, I don't think, what is
that a three four? Like how many seasons are you
talking about? Because the MVP award is kind of it's
not always gonna go. We said it last year Shay won.
We thought, I think we both actually had Joki as
r MVP, but it was just understood that with the
Lebron era too, when he didn't win an MVP, it
was just understood though he is still the best player
in the world.
Speaker 3: Charles Barkle I won an MVP when Michael Jordan was playing.
Karl Malone wanted like it happens all the time where
we just say like okay, cool, but like, come on,
we all know who the guy is. I feel like
is kind of the sentiment, right.
Speaker 1: Right, And I don't loathe this discussion, but I hate
that you spend the time saying, well, like Shay is
just not going to be able to do what we've
seen Yokic do over the past three to four years,
and there's really no way to know for sure, because
he shouldn't be penalized because Okase, he has been so deep.
They also been incredibly injured themselves, and you can make
the case, and especially this season, you should make the
case he's never had a number two option like Jamal
Murray on the team like this season quite literally is
number two basically has hardly ever been available when you
look at j dubb. So I don't like coming at
it from this perspective because it's a hedge if you
if you think Shay Gillen Chucksander's the best player in
the world, not just the MVP, I think when you
still look at the I know he missed some time,
but the minutes discrepancies between him and Jokic and just
some of the Shay clutch stuff, like he's gonna win MVP,
he will probably be my MVP pick when we do
our awards at the end of the season. But when
it comes to the best player in the world, I'm
not gonna say Yokic just leap reached the Lebron default
territory for me, but they're still just look at what
we were discussing. Was it a week ago or two ago,
where Jokic has come back, he hasn't necessarily looked like Jokic.
There's been some more turnover stuff. He hasn't been like
through that stretch as efficient and it was, Oh, the
Nuggets are ten points better per a hundre possession with
him right board, and Shay couldn't do that. But like
that is there is a level of defaultism there for
me because of what Jokic has done over really longer
than this, but the half past half decade for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm actually it'll be a little bit of
a cop out. But I think today, right now, Shay
is better than Jokic, and I think a lot of
that has to do with since coming back from the
knee injury, Jokic the defense just has been a real negative.
I think in a lot of instances he just hasn't
been quite as good and I think it was close
enough to where like if I get to just if
I get to narrow the lens and focus on today
or the last two weeks or the last month or whatever,
I do think Shay has been better than him. So
you know, we woke up this morning, and I think
it's fair to say that Shay is the best player
in the world right now if Jokic is back to
like apex form. And again, Yoki is a little older too,
so it's possible that apex form starts to mean something
different as we go forward for him, maybe, but if
he's back to the best version of himself, I think
I would probably say that Jokic is the best player
in the world.
Speaker 2: I'm I have to narrow it.
Speaker 3: So tightly because it's super close, and I think I
don't think it's unfair to say that. At the moment,
it does seem to be Shay. But then, like you're
talking about, is it a half decade span, is it
the last three years or whatever. I think Jokic still
has it, But in the moment, I'm much more comfortable
than I've ever been saying that Shae has it. It
could go away. It's that close. I think, and I
don't know. It makes me uncomfortable because it is hard
to discount all of the standard arguments for Jokic, the
team lifting capacity that he has and the just total
control and the unique passing of all all the stuff
we always talk about when we discuss him. Shay just
feels better at the moment killer and I don't It's
I don't know. I'm more open to this idea than
I've ever been.
Speaker 2: Basically is where I'd leave it.
Speaker 1: I get yeah, And maybe then I'm looking at it
the wrong way because if you were counting like multi
year windows, it's like, well, how how long do you
expand H yeah, that it's tough. And I look, you're
right though, that Shay has been better this season, But
I don't know if that if in my head, even
with Jokic the way he's looked coming back from injury,
I don't know in my head that's just because of
the availabil like am I and I think other people
getting caught up in it. Is it just the the
sample size or is it, Oh, he's just been way better.
And then you also the stuff that creeps in for
me too is I would recognize I think if I'm
building a team. I was just gonna I think it's
easier to build around Shay than it would be Jokic,
And like, how much does that matter to it? And
now we've journeyed far afield from the MVP or who's
who's the best player? But how much does that stuff
matter in either of those discussions? And also are we
having the same discussion? Do you know, like what is
the how do you detach MVP from like the best
player in the world because you're you we're saying, okay,
look at a given season and we're saying that is
the MVP. But you're also kind of using that argument
as this year Shay is better than Jokic and therefore
he's the best player in the world. Are those actually
two separate things? I don't I don't know.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: The other thing that complicates it further is if you
take the approach of I'm starting a team, I think
you might just pick Wemby over both of them, if
you're assuming you get full career or honestly, well, how
about this as a thought experiment. You're starting to the
season starts today, and you're trying to get through a
season and win a championship. If you believe in the
growth trajectory of Wemby that like the state he's in now,
in a in eight or ten months, he will be
markedly better than he is now. There's a case that
you pick him still and if you're talking full career
in the next five ten years, it's him easy. But
if it's just starting a season starts today, I mean,
w Minyam is a consideration, I think because if against
those two, I don't know, like that's that's a separate discussion,
I guess. But yeah, I guess it's tough to say
that was insane. Yoki is clearly the best player in
the world right Like I might just be right back there.
You seem to have never left, which is admirable.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess, because I'm just asking is when you're
talking about the NBA's best player, and when you come
about the best player in the world, is it just
a single season? Like what does it take to lose
that throne? Because if I think you could say this,
we have not seen We have not seen Apex Jokich
this year, at least for as long as we would
have liked to. That's just that's a fact. Are we
saying that player is on then, because I assume that
that player is still like yo. First of all, Jokic
has also been good enough that he's going to finish
number two or three depend well, if he plays in
enough games two or nothing, Yeah, he's gonna finish second
on the MVP ballot. And so that's also a factor
for me too, to where it's all right, if he's
let go of the rope right now, fine, he's still
the second most valuable player in the league.
Speaker 3: Then yeah, yeah, it's I honestly, I think you raised it.
The building a team around thing is an increasingly salient
factor for me because I do think the defense has slipped,
and I do think as great as he is offensively,
we might I've said this before, we might be now
what we thought five years ago about Jokic might actually
be true now after he disproved it by winning a title,
which is that your defense just cannot be good enough
with him in the middle of it. I think that's
resonating much more to me now, where as Shaye, partly
because he plays a far less important defensive position. It
just like if he's the first player you put on
your roster, it's not like you're thinking, ah, shit, what
how do we compensate for this? At the other first spots.
With Shay, there's just you just you could do whatever
you want. With Jokic, you really do you need your
Aaron Gordon's. You might need your kcps like you, you know,
you might need those types of role guys to make
it work. And and if you don't have elite role
guys that do all the specific things you need, maybe
it can't. You know, maybe that is a real limitation
for him that we sort of haven't had to think
about for a while.
Speaker 1: The thing that I don't think because what you're saying
and what I've said in the past, that is a
popular way to frame it. What I don't think receives
enough credit is if Jokic did all those important defensive
things that are supposed to be done at his position,
what would he look like. The guys who do those
things don't look anything like he does on the offensive end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's that that is that's undeniable.
It's like anyone that has that level, well, there just
aren't other big guys that have that level of responsibility.
So it's it's it's Uh, it's he's unique in that
sense because who's the second highest usage offensive center. Uh,
I mean, I don't I'd struggle to even come up
with somebody that that is in like you want to say,
like Bam, but Bam is such a different player, and
and he's defined by his defense first. So it's an
apples oranges thing. Yeah, it's it's unfair in a lot
of sense, is to ask Jokic to anchor a great
defense given how much he has to do in every
other aspect of the game. It's just it's one. It's
what makes for great debate because he and Shaye play
the same sport. Their objectives are the same, but the
things they're asked to do and the things that they
can do are so wildly different that we're just never
gonna have like a solidified answer.
Speaker 1: I don't think there does seem to be something by
the way, with Shay's crunch time or I know, Nicole
Jokic has hit a ton of big shots. He's been
one of the most efficient clutch players since he's you know,
been in his heyday. Basically, Shay is just when you
talk about with you know, mythologizing a player or just
anecdotally speaking, they're a killer. That's just that Nuggets, the
most recent Nuggets Thunder game. Now, like he was like, no,
you just knew that he was gonna hit those clutch shots.
Speaker 3: Man in right and know the the the idea of
there just not being a solution for him. It applies
better more to Shaye than Jokic, because Yokic can't. If
you give Jokic the ball in an isolation above the arc,
he might have something great happen, but it's not gonna
be like what Shay does, where it's just this demoralizing
you can't there's nothing you can do to stop me
scoring ability, which I don't.
Speaker 1: Know when Jokic puts his heads down and like is
using his shoulder or even when he decides to get
off in actual contested three where it's like the over
the head shot because he's so big. But aesthetically speaking,
like Shae fits what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, well that was a lot of time
on that and we solve nothing.
Speaker 2: So what do you guys?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go fiction and I love Shay,
probably not popular. You're you're gonna go fact though, I'm.
Speaker 3: Gonna go fact with the caveat of like in two weeks,
I might have a different opinion.
Speaker 1: Sorry, all right, let's go to grant factor. Fiction nerds
ruin the NBA. They're no other reason we couldn't celebrate BAM. Yeah,
tire of all this data floating around only people they're
looking at spreadsheets, they're not actually watching the games. Uh,
this was I think the BAM discourse was what I
added this to our list because of the well, I
guess the straw man that people are because I don't
I don't know. Would it be the data people who
are discrediting what BAM is doing or would they be
the one that we're celebrating it. That'd be that'd be interesting.
But there's been it feels like the animat It happens
what two or three times a season where it comes
back up and it feels like animosity is once again
bubbling to the surface. And I'll give an example, and
I won't say the names because I respect the hell
out of the two people that were involved in this exchange.
But someone was upset about a lineup change that was
made and it was just not like went off and
crashed out, but was talking about it, and then that
person quotes sweet and say, oh, we're using an eleven
possessions sample size when it takes x amount of possessions
to normalize or whatever, which is also factually correct. I
think when people say this the nerds ruin the NBA,
there's a level of inauthenticity there, or people being disingenuous
or unfair. But I do think as someone who does
incorporate data a lot and tries to approach as many
things as I can with a both sides ism perspective,
when it comes to the NBA, I don't like. And
I will also note that there is such thing as
toxic fandom, but it does. Being irrational and reacting to
the moment is the entire part of rooting for a
name on a jersey. And so if you're upset about
and no, you shouldn't be making threats or like anything
along those lines, but if you want to react and
be a prisoner of the moment to this lineup change
or this team is playing so poorly they're going through
this stretch, I'm out on them. I do think that's
a part of fandom. I mean, even what we all
do here is super unserious at the end of the day,
we're covering a game where grown adults get paid millions
of dollars and I don't want to to put a
ball through a hoop. And I'm not trying to trivialize
it to the point that doesn't matter. People care about it.
But when I say nerds ruin the NBA, I'm wondering
if there's so much information out there, so many different
people on a platform, which is fine. I'm not advocating
that platform should be taken away, but that oversaturation of
information and approaches has is at war with itself to
where it doesn't feel like we can just accept what
some people approach, root for, or cover the game in
different ways. We're in a search for this absolutest way
to look at the NBA and objectively evaluate everything that's happening.
And I don't I don't want that to ever exist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 3: I don't think anybody comes to the NBA and ends
up loving it because they were interested in like lineup
data or estimated plus minus or synergy tracking stuff. I
think people come to the NBA and sports in general
because it's entertaining and it is a turn your brain
off thing and more than that. Maybe I'm just telling
on myself, but the narrative qualities that attach to it.
Speaker 2: Like if you came up in a.
Speaker 3: Formative stage watching Reggie Miller against the Knicks or Michael
Jordan's Bulls on a Sunday Morning NBC game, you thought
superheroes were real, right, because that's how those guys were
painted and the stories mattered. The Nix hate Miller, Miller
hates the Knicks. That Jordan is indomitable, he will always
make the big shot, he is a larger than life.
Like that kind of stuff is ultimately, I think why
sports are popular. It's like a good stand in for
because as we've become more civilized, like you get, you
have to force this competition that you can entertain yourself
by watching. It's like an advanced form of I don't know,
like the Gladiator games or whatever. So like we all
need this. We need this to entertain us because we're
monkeys that evolved and we have all these like primal
things we're interested in. That said, if the narrative side
and the less rational and like just have fun side,
uh makes the game more enjoyable. I think all the
numbers and the different like angles of analysis and the
sort of uh, I don't know, hacking of of basketball
makes it interesting in its own way.
Speaker 2: And also like it it's how you win. I don't,
I don't. I think it's now a requirement.
Speaker 3: You must have the talent, you must have a good coach,
but you also must have a plan that takes advantage
of you know, marginal edges or market inefficiencies or whatever
like you have to whether and that might mean your
shot die as a team, and that might mean the
types of players you scout and draft like that the
thing the qualities you value because you've analyzed all those
down to the last detail. So like, have nerds ruined basketball? No,
they've made it better in a lot of ways. They
have made it like kind of more obnoxious. And will
I can throw myself into this because I just like
take for example, like, uh, there's a Kobe fan or whatever.
Maybe a more contemporary example, there's a Jokic fan in
Denver that is just not here, not having it when
we're throwing out the catch alls that say, actually Shay's
old Isha's bet, like we're talking past each other because
that fan doesn't care about those numbers. That fan cares
that he's seen Jokic for years and means something special
to him, and like, will not entertain the idea that
anyone's better than this guy. And we're trying to be right,
We're trying to say, well, I mean, quantifiably, there's a
player that's better than him, and like nobody's nobody's meeting
in the middle anywhere. So it's like an inherent push
and pulls. It hasn't roomed, it's no change.
Speaker 1: It's fiction, and I do think I still enjoy and
I was not watching the game. I was too young
to watch, like the game in the early nineties, and
even just the my recollections of the late nineties and
like that era is very minimal. I love then when
I first started watching the entire NBA and wasn't just
a Knicks fan in like the early two thousands. I
love what we're seeing more and I probably understand a
lot of it less than I did then, But I
like watching it way more than I did then. And
I think even when the clips go around, I'm sure
you saw the most recent one. I want to say
it was the Was it the finals between the Bulls
and the Jazz? Was that ninety eight and it was
people were using an example, It's like what happened to
the game that we love? And I was like, kind
of watching it, I was just like, this sucks to
what it got better. But that's also that's my opinion.
And the other thing I don't understand, there's one this
influx of information or like an exorbitant amount of information
when this much money became on the line, Well, we're
not just talking about what players are making, but what
franchises are worth. This was always going this was the
end result. And you're also you're in this hyper competitive
space where every team, these thirty different teams are looking
for an edge over the other. They're going to turn
over every nook and cranny to try and find that.
And I also just wonder I saw a lot of it.
I can't remember the person who tweeted it. It was in
the aftermath of the Band game. I'm assuming they were
responding to people complaining about the BAM game. But when
they said nerds ruined the NBA. I do think a
lot of it comes back to what is the trope
right now? There's too many threes being taken, and so
do you think that do we honestly think that Steph
Curry wouldn't be Steph Curry if it weren't for nerds,
that he wouldn't have been able to figure out that
what I do is this huge market inefficiency over the
rest of the NBA. I really I would reject that notion.
And if if it would have prevented Steph from being Steph,
then that's kind of proof that nerds did not ruin
the NBA, or that this influx of information didn't ruin
the NBA, because Steph is one of the most entertaining players,
electrifying players in NBA history. Just to watch on the ball,
off the ball, whatever, I don't care. And so that
that was the other thing I kind of thought about,
to where even if you sort of feel this way
and there are things that are get overthought, and there
might be some people the way they look at the
game or cover the game, that's not your cup of tea,
and that's ultimately fine. I just couldn't get to where
like I didn't even see enough. And the reason I
threw this on theres I didn't even see enough quote
unquote nerds discrediting or not allowing people to enjoy what
Bam did. Maybe I'm just not in the comment sections
enough then, which hotly I would call that a good
character trait on mine.
Speaker 3: I think in so far as I think, in so
far as there was a pushback on the BAM thing,
it was coming from a very different side than the analytics.
It was coming from your old schoolers, or your Kobe devotes,
or like it was. It was coming from an irrational
place as opposed to an analytical place. I think that
I don't think the nerds were mad about the BAM thing,
or I would be surprised if they were. No. I
you know, maybe the way you mentioned Steph, but like
if if so, the way that Steph and the Warriors
played under Mark Jackson, who was an old schooler who
was not a fan of what you'd call it analytics,
you could very much imagine him being the one to say,
you know, jump shooting teams can't win a championship, even
though he did say that Steph and Clay were the
best shooting back Courdever, it took Steve Kerr and a
new coaching staff that was more willing to look at
like what happens if we let guys shoot a lot
more threes? And there were some precursors like the Van
Gundy magic and all that stuff to make So so
did the style the Warriors started playing under kerr ruin.
Speaker 2: The game or did it make it better? I would
argue pretty wrongly, it made it better.
Speaker 3: So it's just and that was very much fueled by talent,
but also by just we should play differently because the
numbers say we should play differently.
Speaker 2: So that's that's a.
Speaker 3: Pretty clear example to me of you know, complain all
you want about like the catch all metrics and this
and that as opposed to just like watching your favorite
player and enjoying it. But it's pretty sure there's a
lot of value add.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the catch all metrics, We've mentioned the threes.
I'm just curious what the actual biggest gripe or the
belief in data ruined this aspect of the NBA. What
is the the most prevalent focus on that? Is it
the three point volume?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: I feels like players are just gonna use Cam Thomas
as an example. It's like they're relatively average or below
average efficiency volume scores that don't do a ton elton.
It's I don't want to say it's weeded them out
of the game. But there's definitely not as big of
an appreciation for them as there might have been a
couple decades ago. What is it. I'm just curious as
to what the main my guess would be the three
point volume stuff, but that's not I don't consider like
three being more than two analytics.
Speaker 2: I also don't think it's anything that specific.
Speaker 3: I think I think more broadly, there's a sense that
you're making this less fun. I just like take Kevin
Kevin Durant for example, not to hold him up as
some denier of analytics, but he always just likes to
talk about like I just go out and hoop, and
I like hoopers, and it's like it's a.
Speaker 2: Kind of you know it when you see it.
Speaker 3: I've formed this opinion over my life kind of stance
on what basketball is supposed to look like. And for
people that think that way being confronted with all these
metrics that say, actually Cam Thomas is not a bucket
or whatever, Like, yes, I hear you saying he's a bucket.
Problem is he's not a helpful offensive player. And it's
just like you're don't make don't make me question my
beliefs and don't make me think harder about what's actually
good and why right. It's just like there's a resistance
to that, I feel like in a broader sense, which
I get, like if you want to enjoy basketball a
certain way, it's an inner tainment product, like great do
what have at it? But but I understand why people
bristle at just the nerddom of it all because it's
it's inherently it's inherently less fun in that particular.
Speaker 1: Way, and there could be a level of it still
that's intimidating when you're looking at some of the like
lottery proposals I had to read through. I hate having
to read through things like it makes you feel stupid
and then you become that's speaking for me personally. And
the other thing too that I think is unfair is
that we're we're on one level to where there are
people that probably don't have access to all the information
that we do, and there are people that are just
dimensions above us we don't have, like I don't have
a second spectrum subscription. So it's unfair I think for
fans of all people who aren't who are maybe only
following one team or just selecting their favorite games and
watching it to just have like to understand that they
don't have the data of well, how is Anthony Edwards
passing out of traps from the left side of the floor.
It's it's unread like. First of all, not everyone's watching
the game if you remove analytics from the equation through
that prism. But there's an informational barrier at like separate
levels there is just depending on where you are, what
you're willing to pay for, or who you work for,
you're just going to have access to different levels of
information and nuance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think it's it's a complicated issue for sure.
Let's move on to a simpler one. This is more
of an either or thing in the spirit of factor fiction.
Dan Paalo Bank Heero friend of the pod because we
talk about him all the time, is underrated factor fiction.
Speaker 1: So I need to go find that from the Rookie
of the Year thing that you have between him and
Jail and Williams that went viral and people hated us
for I'd like to bring that up because that that
Grant Hughes did not think Palo Bank Carrow was underrated?
Speaker 2: H is he though?
Speaker 3: Because so the case is, yes, this is a Okay,
hold on, hold on, I want to say because I
was thinking you might go this direction. Uh, the basis
of saying he's underrated is really just one of those
that we talk about sometimes the pendulum swung too far?
Is is that is that the case that you're prepared
to make that he is in fact underrated?
Speaker 1: No, well, I mean it's part of the case, but
it's he has actual flaws. But what is what if
I harped on every single time we have a Palo
Bin Carol talk to the point where our subscribers have
to be just annoyed that I keep saying it. The
context of the Orlando Magic around him has never done
made sense right, and it's there are things, yes, there
are things about his game that could be frustrating. But
we talked about Pala Binko before he goes on this,
you know, post All Star tear, where he's been more
efficient and like one of the bigger deals is his
percentage inside five feet is increased by fifteen percentage points
during Like It's cool. Yeah, he shoots seventy five percent
inside five feet. For the rest of his career, he'll
be he'll be pretty good. But some of the things
that he was doing even before his efficiency was ticking up,
was getting off the ball quicker, not being any I
always think the balls you talk about the pendulum swinging
in the wrong direction, It felt like that was one
of the examples. Just has felt like he's made a
concerted effort while the Magic have been banged up, still
trying to establish themselves, like they haven't had the team
they thought they were gonna have this year. Just you
could see a lot of bunch of different reasons. But
it's Franz Bawder has just been injured, Palovin Carroll was
injured at one point. They haven't had that their core
lineup has not been available. But the effort that he
has done, I think to fit in to their larger
ecosystem was admirable before this turn started happening. And I
would also argue is admirable in the sense that I
still didn't understand Orlando's offensive ecosystem for much of this year,
and so when he's going to play like this as
someone who can still hit tough shots, yes you could
quibble about, Okay, if the threes are gonna fall to
a higher eclip, that's a big one. And the other thing.
I would just point to know these were not the
most efficient performances. No, he does not have the longest
postseason sample. He's kind of proven that he can be
a killer on the league's biggest stage. And that to
me when you were in years We've finished year four
and he's been injuries happened to every team, and so yes,
he's gonna be under a larger microscope. We named him
as a player that has a ton of pressure on
him and a bunch to prove. I would agree with that.
You got a max contract the bar officially you're exiting
the he could be anything territory, let's wait for it.
I recognize that urgency. I just feel like there are
at least enough pockets, the longer extended pockets or important
pockets of time where the player that we've seen is
not the one that is portrayed by whether it's fans
talking has podcasters, writers, whatever, a lot of the time.
Speaker 3: So the underrated overrated thing is sort of an impossible
premise because it's who's who is who is establishing the
official opinion on how good.
Speaker 1: Not provably false?
Speaker 2: Right. I I'm just to ask you some questions.
Speaker 3: Do you think that he is ever gonna be a
three point shooter that defenses are scared of or have
to guard truly, honestly, could you.
Speaker 1: Give me an example of someone that fits the the
median of that?
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, how about this? Will he?
Speaker 3: Will he be a three point shooter that is treated
like Carmelo Anthony was, Yes, you think okay, okay, which
is like towards the end a fairly high bar. Mellow
was almost like a specialist towards the end there, but
like prime, Mellow was guarded very honestly beyond the arc,
I think fair right. Like that's even though his chief
skill was kind of the stuff palo you know, mid
range ISO.
Speaker 2: Attack type of stuff. Correct, Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: Uh if that's one where I can't quite get there.
But I'm what I struggle with with him is this
is his fourth year. As you said this, the context
has never been ideal. He's this is age twenty three season.
Speaker 2: At what point do you give up on a skill development?
Speaker 3: He's like right on the borderline for me with respect
to the three point shooting specifically, I think there's so
much else to recommend him where I guess I would
have to say that this is it is fiction he
is not underrated. I think he's still closer to overrated
for a couple key reasons. One, I do think take
the name out of it. This player type is overrated
to me in general, and I think what I mean
by that is primarily a scorer whose offensive value diminishes
a lot if he doesn't have the ball. So that
just means that you have to be so good as
a first option at this thing that this it's not
a niche thing, but this role is what it is.
Speaker 2: You have to be so good at this, and there's a.
Speaker 3: Half dozen guys in the league maybe that are good
enough at it to justify the to offset the lack
of offensive value away from the ball, the like scalability stuff
like I wouldn't say he's a scalable player or hasn't
looked like one so far. And then defensively, he's not
someone that's gonna be defined by his play on that
end ever, So to immediately max this guy and treat
him as if he is capable of being the best
player on a good team, like really good team, feels
like too much to me. Still, I haven't seen enough
to justify sort of that status, and the contract's doing.
Speaker 2: A lot of work, yeah, for sure, but.
Speaker 3: That all rolls into the overrated, underrated, properly rated calculus
for me. So I get what you're saying, and I
think maybe if I'm wrong, it's because I'm just too
quick to dismiss the possibility that the context matters as
much as it might, and to dismiss the potential for
him to.
Speaker 2: Get better, because like those both those.
Speaker 3: Someone's totally unknowable. The other one is really hard to quantify.
Speaker 1: I think that the most persuasive part of that argument
is kind of the same thing when you look at
the three point percentage or the value off the ball.
When you mentioned Carmelo Anthony, would he be respected on
the same level Carmentine was taking a bunch of these
off the dribble threes that Powell's not going to take.
And so when you look at I think eighty percent
of his career like three pointers have come off assists,
and the fact that he's not a more efficient three
point shooter, but he can also point to this year
when he is shooting under thirty one percent for the year,
or wherever he's at forty one plus percent on catch
and shoot threes, And so what I struggle with him.
I could record like, maybe I'm gonna be wrong, Like
maybe I'm just too high on powower. Maybe it's just
the I think you mentioned the top. I'm over compensated
because I think the pendulum has swung too far in
one direction. The push and pull for me is like
does he need to be in a different ecosystem? And
you could argue that a great player would figure it
out regardless, But the magic between their injuries and just
like the limitations they've always had on the offensive end,
and what I also don't think he's ever received enough
credit for is the ability to draw fouls, his defense
in general, being a part of a couple of elite defenses.
Then there's of course the rebounding there. And so I
really wanted this team to go to the playoffs this
year because that would be the okay, let's but even
if they make it to the playoffs, are they're going
to have a fully available They'll always be excuses there.
So it'll be weird. It is objectively weird that we
might still be having this discussion for a fifth year
running when he enters next season.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean to draw it all the way back
to the Jalen Williams comparison. It's like, I think so
much of that is still true, which is to say
that ben Caro's skills force him into this box where
success is just harder because he's got to be the
number one option.
Speaker 2: I think. I think that's the player type he is.
Speaker 3: Where Williams, if there's a knock on him, it's that
he can't be that, but he does everything else so
well that his valu valu is actually higher. So like
Paolo is either super duper star or not that useful,
whereas Williams is going to be highly useful for a
very long time because his game is very different. And
it's just I don't know, it's like players don't decide
I want to be in this box or that one,
but they're just in very different boxes and the I
don't know if you want to say it's like a
degree of difficulty or like the expectations. They're just different
for ban Caro because he doesn't do all the other stuff.
Just to use him as an example that like that,
Jalen Williams can do so or has done when he's healthy.
It's been a shit year for him this year. It's
just a different thing. It's it's a hard standard to hit.
If you're the type of player that Paolo number one
overall pick, first option, offensive guy like that, you know,
that's just a harder thing to be.
Speaker 1: That's all. That's the other thing he's up against is
because when I did I did a bonus when we
posted our truth Theorem takes my bonus bold prediction was
because as of right now, I think people would say
Jalen Johnson is going to make more all NBA teams
than Palo Bancaro, oh of course of their career, and
I I said the opposite, and maybe there well, he's
a number one pick. That's not spicy at all, and
it's you kind of knowing what we've seen from Palo
Bank Carol, with the perception of him right now, you
need to divorce that. You could hold him to that bar,
but it's that doesn't make you know what I mean, like,
he's never gonna escape. I was the number one pick,
so the bar is always going to be higher. But
he could turn if he turned into a Jalen Johnson
level player. Some people might think that's a failure because
Jalen Johnson is what the thirtieth best player in the league.
Speaker 2: Right or whatever.
Speaker 3: Well, no, but by that logic, he does become better
because Jalen Johnson is a lot closer to Jalen Williams
to me than he is to Pallo Bancaro. Where it's
like you're getting contributions in all these different areas and
it's pretty easy to build the same It's like the
Jokic thing. It's like, pretty easy to build a team
around this guy because you know Jalen. Sure, Jalen Johnson
could be your first option on an ok team, so
can Polo. But he can give you this other stuff
that's that that Polo hasn't to the same degree. Yeah,
it's just it's the role is it's tough. It's almost
like a feast or famine kind of thing. Like he's
either a huge disappointment or he becomes an MVP candidate.
There's kind of a no in between for him.
Speaker 1: Uh, it's my pick, right, Sure, let's go to I
don't want to do this. I feel like I've done
a lot of the anecdotal ones so far, so let's
do this. Grant the Los Angeles Lakers are a real threat,
or more of a threat in the Western Conference than
they're being credited for they do before. They're only two
as a team that's top four in the conference. I'm
trying to think of who is the last team that
was top four in the West that we just kind
of dismissed just like, yeah, they're not Yeah, it was
probably a Grizzlies team, right, it was an iteration of
the Green.
Speaker 2: It could have been.
Speaker 3: It could have been like even last year's Rockets, I
think where everybody was like, this is the number two seed,
but what are we talking about here?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: But people were talking about Well, maybe I'm not putting,
but I just I just don't know, Like I feel
like the Lakers haven't gotten the attention of a team
that has Luca sometimes has Lebron, has Austin Reeves headed
towards freeach and see they're top four in the West,
and I don't know it just that team having who
it does and being where it is, I thought would
be under more of a spotlight than they have been.
Speaker 3: You've often lamented the lack of coverage the Lakers get,
and you've been really consistent on that.
Speaker 1: That's what you're speaking just through this podcast, like they're
just not They're not a like what's the team we've
talked about the most this year. It's not the way, It's.
Speaker 3: Not so I keep track of every game I watch
with little tick marks, and the Lakers have a shockingly
few number of tick marks relative to some other teams.
I just haven't been interested. And so I think that's
just proving your point. Are they a real threat to
win the West? That to me is fiction. I just
think the defense has been better. This seems to happen,
I say, every year under Reddick, because he has been
there for that long.
Speaker 2: But there's all.
Speaker 3: Historically, Historically, in the Reddick Reddick era, there have been
stretches where like the narrative is the defense looks way
better than it has a right to, and well, I mean,
now what you know, are we gonna knock them for?
Speaker 2: And then it doesn't stick.
Speaker 3: I'm still I'm hanging on to the priors of you
can't be a serious threat to win a conference if
your three best players are defensive minuses.
Speaker 2: You just I just don't. I don't see it.
Speaker 3: And when there's not another lights out defender on the
roster to offset that, that you can play without giving
up a bunch of stuff on offense, I mean, maybe
I said too much.
Speaker 2: I just don't think that Jared Vanderbilt, Marcus Smart, is
that what we're that's where we're turning too.
Speaker 1: It's it is it's the defensive stuff. And you could
point too. I think they are tenth since the All
Star Break. My favorite stats are like, well, they're third
over their last three games. It's like, oh wow, that's incredible, right,
They've gotten lucky out opponent three point shooting. There's something
since the break. But I will say when you watch
them in some of these games, and particularly that game
against the Timberwolves, there's more of just like a defensive
connectivity there to where like they're doing a better job
containing the ball, which makes things easier on the guys
who are gonna be around the BA. Ask whether it's
a DeAndre Ayton or Jackson Hayes. Their rotations like they've
just been faster to rotate. It looks like Marcus Smart
has been better defensively, I think during the stretch than
I've seen across like the entire season. Also just kind
of Lukenard seems to have usurped Jake Larevi on the
rotation and like they're leaning into just more space on offense.
Maybe like more dynamism on the offensive end. Perhaps that's
the way to go. What I keep coming back to, though,
is going to be the defense, because can they maintain
this level of defense across an entire series. Again, let's
say they're facing the Timber, well, like, Okay, sure, maybe
they could against the timber. They're not doing it three times.
It's just not gonna like they don't have the defensive
personnel to do it. They just they don't. And there's
also just it's really cool that Luca and Reeves have
dominated the time they've spent without Lebron James. Lebron James
like his back he played against the Bulls. I did
not watch that game, so I'm just assuming he played
against the Bulls. It's always available, pretty integral part of
your team because he's Lebron James, and so you said it,
if you're gonna have all three of them on the
court at once, I don't know how you build a
defense that can be even if you're able to like
keep teams away from the basket more often and not
allowed them to shoot seventy plus percent at the rim. Okay, great,
can you reach a level high enough with those three
on the court for how many minutes ago they're all
gonna play thirty plus Can you reach a high enough
level defensively over a forty eight minute game where you're
gonna have two of those guys on the floor at
all times to beat not just the Timberwolves or the Rockets,
but it's the Timberwolves and the Rockets and the Nuggets
or you know what I mean, Like you're gonna have
to the West. Is just it's still brutal at the
top in that way.
Speaker 2: That's the thing.
Speaker 3: It's you could you could convince me that they might
play a game or two, or even an entire series
that the level defensively that they would need to to
win it are you beating the thunder and or the Spurs?
And you know, just to say nothing of like Lebron
and Luca don't have the greatest recent track record of
holding up over over a full postseason either.
Speaker 2: So there's that like.
Speaker 3: Even if maybe you could say the best version of
the Lakers is a team that for a short period
can really play with and maybe beat anybody, but the
length of time that the Lakers would need to sustain
that level is just it's not realistic. I just I
don't think how whether that's health, whether that's defense, whether
whatever it is, it's just it's it's compared to the
teams they'll have to play. There's no way they hold
that level for as long as it would take to
be real threat.
Speaker 1: Two things, I think if you polled any of the
playing teams in the Western Conference, they would all say
they want to face the Lakers in the first round
versus anybody, like maybe the Rockets creep into that.
Speaker 2: HM.
Speaker 1: The other thing is my like real just okay. My
NBA era has begun was basically when Lebron entered the NBA.
The fact that he has now dealt with arthritis and
sciatica in the same season is proof once and for all,
even though it was already dead, that my youth is deceased.
And this is so tough. It's tough for me to
come to grips with I'm not when I when when
I's always missing time with arthritis. The sciatica got me
at the beginning of the year, but I was like, ah,
I'll come back. No, like this is just I'm not okay.
Speaker 2: With a grant thoughts, some prayers. Sorry, sorry to.
Speaker 1: Hear as my wrist is injured too, Like, yeah, it's
all it's all unraveling to your picks now though.
Speaker 3: Ooh uh, this one jumped out in me because we
haven't really talked about them, uh since since he came back. Uh,
factor fiction, the Celtics should be considered the real favorites
to come out of the East. Uh. Jason Tatum is back,
he's playing basketball. He's had some very encouraging moments after
a couple of rough ones in the in his debut,
and it's really like a tale of two halves. Even
in that one he's had, he's had a bad half,
I would say, or like a rusty half. Otherwise, mostly
most of the signs have been highly encouraging.
Speaker 2: This factor fiction.
Speaker 3: As phrased, means that it's not the Calves or the
Pistons or your New York nick that should be the favorites.
Speaker 2: What do we think about this? Because we've we talked.
Speaker 3: Last time, we did talk a little bit about the
Celtics to the to the extent of how do we
get here?
Speaker 2: If you told you know, if you'd told me we
would be here six.
Speaker 3: Months ago, I would have just wondered what crazy set
of circumstances led to it.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't feel that weird. It doesn't.
Speaker 3: I Like the more I think about it, the more
I could get on board with this.
Speaker 2: Are you are you starting to have.
Speaker 3: Kind of those same like little I don't know, Like
there's this little tug that's just don't overthink it, like
Boston might just be it.
Speaker 1: It's and the tug is stronger because of how Detroit
has struggled since coming out of the All Star break over.
Speaker 3: And because of what we've said about the Pistons all year,
Like the flaw is just we just know it.
Speaker 2: We just know what it is.
Speaker 1: Boss.
Speaker 3: Maybe do you think, Okay, let me do you think
Because now the Celtics aren't new in a in a
real sense, but we've seen so little of them at
full strength that we maybe don't yet know what the
Pistons level flaw is that we could isolate and say, well,
it'll be this is why if they lose, this will
be why. Because we can do that for the Pistons,
we could do that for the Knicks, we could do
that for the Calves and go down the list. Is
that part of it or the Celtics such a nose
commodity that like there's there isn't one of those.
Speaker 1: Dah, You're right, I don't know that. I've given thoughts
of their fatal flo what do we call their fatal.
Speaker 3: Flaw When we were going through those, I just said
is they don't get to the room enough and they
don't shoot enough free throws.
Speaker 2: And even then that pre pretatum.
Speaker 1: I was reaching, Yeah, that was predatum. Yeah, I'm going
to say fiction just because I probably have. They were
my preseason picks, so this is me sticking to my priors.
But at the same time, I do believe it. I
think the Calves should probably be considered favorite clout of
the East, and I have two main reasons why. Focusing
on the Pistons, I really do believe that their crowning
flaw is going to come back to absolutely nail the
past playoffs. Maybe maybe I'm wrong with Boston specifically. It's
really cool what they're doing, but like we're just oh
Baylor shireman, you go Gonzale, Like the level of dependence
on those types of players or whether it's a Okay,
let's assume KTA looks fine in the playoffs. How are
you feeling about that? Backup five spot after that, is
it like, who are you trusting the most? There? Is
it Luca Garza? Is it Vouch? You're getting super small?
How many minutes is Jordan Walsh playing here? And so
they are there's a level of dependence either on one
imperfect players and I'm just saying Vouch is really there
or these unknown commodities up and down the roster, which
I think is part of what makes them so intriguing.
Is that Ball or Shireman like he's contributing to this team.
Now you go, Gonzales is a rookie is doing the same.
So there's the stuff that they're able to do defensively
and the cool things that they've integrated into their offense.
And now you just have Tatum back. I think you
could say looking at the rest of the East, seeing
what the Knicks have kind of done, and then everything
else just below those what for those four teams is okay,
I don't really need to talk myself and anything there.
I think it needs to be the Calves still. And
I'm saying that as someone who would not have traded
for James Harden if I were.
Speaker 3: Right right, So I'm gonna go maybe it's the novelty
of it, although again is it novel. It's the Celtics.
They have a title. You know, the core is different,
but the core corps is still there. I don't trust
the Calves.
Speaker 2: It's just start and stop at James Harden.
Speaker 3: I guess if you're trying to come out of the East,
that's a pretty big hurdle for me.
Speaker 2: Sorry, you know.
Speaker 1: The bigger concern for you James Harden or the wing defense.
Speaker 2: I guess it probably has to be the wing defense.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious.
Speaker 2: Harden's a part of that though, for what it's worth.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, the Pistons, we know, it's just we know
what the flaw is going to be.
Speaker 2: The Knicks. I mean we should have.
Speaker 3: Done like are the Knicks underrated because some of these
some of these know, I know, it's just nobody gets
on nobody's on board with the Knicks.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it's I'm gonna go fact.
Speaker 3: I just there's something about the Celtics. There's some there's
something about just the what we know and and the
unknown combined in a very exciting way.
Speaker 1: It's also very impressive that they're here, just despite being
so unfairly officiated the entire season as Jallen Brown would.
Speaker 2: Say really serious.
Speaker 3: For a second, I was like, yeah, what if what
if if you agreed before I said it?
Speaker 1: I finish? That was great.
Speaker 3: I was already thinking of my next thing, which is, uh,
now seems less profound as I've had twenty seconds to
stew on it.
Speaker 2: But what if the.
Speaker 3: Celtics are like you know, they everything we say about
the heat or really said like three, four or five
years ago, where you just don't want to see them
because there's something there and and and don't worry about
the regular season. If you get them in a series,
they're gonna be well coached, and they're gonna play hard
and they're gonna d Like what if that applies to
the Celtics, except the Celtics could win fifty eight games?
Also like, what if it's all the heat culture stuff
applies to the Celtics now, but the Celtics actually just
have more talent to start with.
Speaker 1: I'm standing by my fiction, which is I think rooted
a lot in maybe things that haven't come back to
bite them yet. Where's if we're gonna talk about, Okay,
do the Pistons need more playoff scars? Do the Spurs
as a team need more playoff scars, like you know,
like bayl Or Shireman and Jordan walshouldn't you you Lo Gonzales,
they need their playoffs SCRs too. But to your point,
when you start going into individual matchups between everyone in
the East specifically, it does feel like Boston is more
of a potential foil for anyone than any other team
in the East. And if even you can go through
and said, who's the toughest matchup for the Pistons, I
might it might be Boston.
Speaker 3: It might be bost In there for sure, because you
can throw four different guys at CAD.
Speaker 1: Who's the toughest matchup for Cleveland? Is it Detroit? Or
is it Boston? Is at New York? It might it
might be Boston.
Speaker 2: It might be Boston.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And then and that's flip it though, and
say like who do the Celtics really not want to see?
And it gets a lot harder Hornets. Nobody wants to
see the Hornets. Yeah, all right, your turn.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna go here because I want you
to talk about it. The Warriors should tank the playing
factor fiction now, just as a background here there, I
don't think their lottery odds are gonna get any better
than they are right now. They're too far in front
of the Blazers for me. I mean, maybe they could,
they really wanted to pull Shenanigans, but you're what I'm
basically saying is they should guarantee themselves a seven point
two percent chance at a top four pick rather than
getting into the first round of the playoffs and getting
trucked by most likely the Oklahoma City Thunder.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I was gonna ask you because I didn't
have the math. So if you lose in the the NBA, apologize,
if you lose nine the nine to ten game, that
you're done, and that's where you get your seven point
whatever percent ants at the at the number one pick, right.
Speaker 1: Because I don't. I think it still goes by record
after that. So even if they've lost to the Blazers,
the Blazers could still technically end up in front of
them in the lottery if they don't make the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, maybe it's a little bit more
than seven point two pers but let's use seven point
two as the baseline of getting a top four pick
in the lottery.
Speaker 3: Yeah, top four, I said, number one. I still am
an old lottery math.
Speaker 2: I don't so I'm open to it because this season,
nothing's happening. This season.
Speaker 3: Steph at the latest report, is going to miss at
least another handful of games. It's getting up towards two
months that he will have missed by the time he
comes back.
Speaker 2: From this runner's knee.
Speaker 3: And and I mean maybe that's another maybe another factor
of fiction should be Steph should not play another game.
Speaker 2: This year just because what are you doing.
Speaker 3: I I'm gonna just say fiction. I'm open to being
sold on on if you're willing to say fact. I'm
open to the argument there. I just say fiction because.
Speaker 2: It's not enough of the math says you should. But
but it's not.
Speaker 3: Just sort of like, considering it from the perspective of
the team's goals and what they've sort of broadcast their
aims are, doesn't make sense that the payoff isn't great
enough to justify packing it in in what might be
Steve Kurz last year, I've actually been thinking a lot
more about that lately. He's got no contract for next year.
I mean, he might look at what's happened this season
and what the prospects are and say I'm good, you know,
also retire somewhere.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem as if negotiating with Joe lacub is
a good time based off how bad buyers left or
do you remember the anecdote where he kind of questions
whether they should have given Steph max money. Oh yeah,
a contract to go or whatever it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's that, And I just think, more broadly,
if there's a sliver of a chance you can get
Steph in a meaningful game, they're gonna they're gonna go
with it. So I'm gonna say fiction, I think they
should just see what happens in the plan and not
not not pack it in. But I mean they might
not have to pack it in to lose.
Speaker 2: That nine to ten game.
Speaker 3: That the thing that's really the thing, like you might
get what you want without, you know, just calling it quits.
Speaker 1: I want to say fact, but it's probably a fiction.
And but I think part of me says that knowing
there's a chance, they don't need to pack it in
to end up there anyway, just because beyond Steph, it's well,
what is gonna be going on with Chris Tops at
that point? But I'm also just I don't know they
have unless they're planning on making this big train. They're
not gonna Jimmy Butler back until twenty twenty seven. I'm
gonna say fact, it's honestly because and look at what's
happened with the way that the lot like the jumps
in the lottery, like if you end up they ended
up jumping into the top four. I'm not tanking as
a problem. It needs to be addressed, but it's going
to be addressed after the season for next year anyway.
I don't know. Man, that comes back to your Steph
play again this season, and my answer just might be
I'm good. I know that runs counter two. You should
be going as hard as you can in every pro
like Steph being Steph type of year. Okay, sure, but
this isn't gonna be that year. If Steph is Steph who,
you're not beating the thunder. What would it take for
Golden State to upset Oklahoma City?
Speaker 3: I mean Steph would have to average forty I think,
And that's your starting point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might you know, tank it. That's I'm calling fact.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's that's that's fair. I get it.
Speaker 3: It's I'm probably again for the million times I'm not
rational about the Warriors. All right, Uh, we haven't done
this yet. This might be an easy one factor fiction.
The Hornets of Charlotte are the fifth best team in
the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 2: Why make the case that this is in fact?
Speaker 1: Like it's a fact, it's a fact, people. I've seen
a different like time span cited, and that always gets
its cherry picking. Since Thanksgiving, this is the one that
I've always harped on. They are second in offense and
they are sixth in defense. Grant, that is forty nine games.
That's that we can't just look at a fifty games
sample size that I don't know a lot of luck.
Their opponents aren't hitting their threes, which is part of it,
but like, yeah, the defense is better they do you
know what changed for this team? LaMelo, Brandon Miller, and
Conkinnipple were playing at the same fucking time. That is
what we were waiting on. Nipple just came into the league.
So we've been waiting on LaMelo and Miller to have
more of a sample size together, or for either one
of them to just gain traction and play in a
bunch of games. Writ large it's happening and this is
the end result. Now, do I think that they're gonna
win a playoff series if they come out of the
play it, or like make it to the playoffs? I mean,
tell me who their face they looking back to you, like,
how is this? What? If it's not them, who is it?
That's my other question?
Speaker 3: Right, So the logical candidates would be Orlando, Miami. I
think you rule the Sixers out of that conversation at
the moment, just because of Maxie's injury and embead and
all that stuff at.
Speaker 2: Toronto. Do I say Toronto?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: I mean of of So let's say of Orlando, Atlanta,
Toronto and Miami. Miami jumps out at me, and maybe
that's just because we were talking about BAM and heat
culture and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: But I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the main sure.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not Atlanta. I don't trust Orlando. So
if is it Toronto? Is Toronto's defense right now? So yeah,
I think I think there's no doubt that the Hornets
offense is elite and real defense. It's you know, the
three point shooting is what, like we what do we
we killed the Pelicans a couple of years ago, because
they were just there were this inexplicably good defense because
of three point of luck. And maybe some of that applies,
but that version of the Pelicans, just to use them
as a comparison, did not have Charlotte's offense. Uh, and
I have no questions about Charlotte's offense. I don't think
there's a great solution for it that anyone can really
put out. The thunder Oh, well, you're not gonna have
to see them unless you make until you make the finals.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, cold you imagine you.
Speaker 2: Know, same thing with Wemby.
Speaker 3: You're not gonna have to run into him and solve
him until the finals in twenty twenty seven and at
the latest.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a pretty easy fact.
Speaker 3: Maybe we're bandwagony, Maybe we're just enjoying the how fun
this all is. But I think there's a real case
you said it fifty games where you're like, you have the.
Speaker 2: Number the profile of a title contender, second and sixth.
What are we talking about?
Speaker 1: You're the Pistons. Who are you more afraid of facing
in a play It doesn't matter when in a playoff
series the Knicks or the Hornets.
Speaker 3: Well, you still have to say the Knicks because the
Hornets run up against the like we're just we're new
new here, fellas like that that part of it which
we apply to the Spurs earleist I do, so I
say NIX that said Charlotte could beat Detroit in a
series as possible.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's fun what fun times? I like that we're here.
Speaker 1: Wow. That so that we agreed on that. That was
the first one we agreed on, and a few my turn,
let's stick with playing territory ish teams. Grant the Sons
are the most dangerous non contender in the NBA. And
so I'm gonna frame this as who doesn't rank in
the top ten of championship odds. They're like eighteen or
whatever it is. And you can look at it and say,
are they the like non contender most likely to win
a playoff series? I think it would be easy to say,
wouldn't that be the Hornets? But if the Hornets are
going to run into I guess the Suns are going
to run into the thunder or number two. And you
want to just face number two. So we're just open ended.
The Sons are the most dangerous non contender in the NBA,
just the way that they've played under Jordan Not in
spite of certain injuries, they're getting development from Rasher Fleming.
Come on, malawatch right now. Devin Booker just as a
passer this year, even defensively for him. Factor fiction.
Speaker 2: I think it's fiction.
Speaker 3: While acknowledging just you know, Jordan not should be on
everybody's shortlist for Coach of the Year. And just how
refreshing it's been that the Suns are just winning because
they play hard and do all the right things. After
all the bs with the Bradley Beal kd Era, I
still it's just looking at a list of possible alternatives again,
Miami jumps out again Charlotte maybe even if we throw Charlotte.
Speaker 1: Out right, That's why.
Speaker 3: They don't belong in this conversation. They're a tier above it. Honestly,
the Clippers, if Kauwhi is gonna be this Kawhi all
the same ship. We've always said about the you don't
want to see if you go against the Clippers, there's
a great chance, no matter who you are, you don't
have the best player on the floor, which is immediately
that's a that's a red alert for a playoff series
that a lot of times, the best player on the
floors team is gonna win, if Kawhi. And then again,
how many times have we said if Kawhi dot dot
dot who knows some part of me is still skeptical
of the Suns for a couple of reasons. One, I
just like Devin Booker has not done it for me
this year. I think they hay Dylan Dylan Brooks is
way too important and he's gonna be coming off that
hand and maybe the hand will be totally fine, but
I've expected his offense to be in a massive regression
all season and I will never stop.
Speaker 2: You gotta go.
Speaker 3: And then here's the other thing I just thought of,
Like the Suns do feel like one of those teams
who play at an intensity level of ten in January,
and not everybody else does that. So I'm gonna throw
that cliche out there where when everybody's out of ten
in the playoffs, your ten doesn't count for as much
like they don't have a twelve.
Speaker 2: To get to. So maybe that that gives me some
pause as well. So I'll say fiction.
Speaker 3: But it's not an easy call. There's no like obvious
better choice. I don't think since Charlotte is in fact
a contender, I'll.
Speaker 1: Say fiction because I do think it's the Hornets. But
I also I think the answer might actually just be
the Clippers because you mentioned the Kawhi stuff. But oh,
Darius Garland, like you just now of a sudden integrating
this player who was basic could have been all NBA.
Like you could say the same thing about Harden, but
he's younger and there's like a different type of shake
to him on the ball, and you can use him
off the ball more in different spots. I think he
also veers into the Kawai territory of well if he's healthy.
So that's why the Charlotte's who who feels more bankable
from adorability perspective between the teams that we're considering, Charlotte
LAC and the something a jail in Green injury now
the Dalen Brooks stuff, so they've been banked up too.
Speaker 3: It can't be the Clippers because that's just that's like
they're defining characters.
Speaker 2: I think that's it.
Speaker 3: It might be and with pretty hey, look how far
we've come, Wemelo. Nobody's worried about the injury with you knock,
knock on everything. All right, my turn, Let's see is
there any obvious one we've skipped over? Okay, let's do
this the factor of fiction. The Spurs are actually the
West's second best team.
Speaker 1: I mean, the standings say fast and would suggest that
as a fact.
Speaker 3: The more fun I think. I don't think there's a
I don't think there's any chance you would put another
team above them. We we slobbered all over Minnesota last
time we recorded, and they've just shpited the bed like three.
Speaker 2: Times since then.
Speaker 1: Things classic Minnesota, too classic, So.
Speaker 3: Now no belief whatsoever in the Wolves. We absolutely would
have mentioned them as the as the alternative here a
week ago. Maybe that's what we should still do. I
think there's I think the Spurs are closer to the
Thunder than they are to anybody below them. Maybe that's
the way i'd frame it. I don't think anybody else
is going to get into that number two spot, and
I think there's a more compelling argument about the Spurs
actually being very close to the Thunders level.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say fiction. I still think it's the Nuggets,
and maybe I'm I need to wait. I'm overwaiting, though
we had this conversation I think a couple of weeks
ago about you mentioned the stat about of the past
fifteen NBA champions, basically all of them, with the exception
of the lebron Lakers, have had a playoff series victory
under their belt. As a core, there's that element of
it for me. But also I just I respect the
hell out of full strength Denver Nuggets, but if it
comes down to a belief in which team is going
to be more available at that point, uh, just with
some of the injuries that the Nuggets have needed to
deal with and are still dealing with, that's a big one.
I also just I would just like to point out,
like it's very cool that Stefan Cassel is shooting over
forty percent from three since the All Star Break, that
doesn't just mean it's a new normal. Like should we
just assume that Daron Fox is a twenty nine percent
three point shooter then, because that's what's gonna happen since
I think he's thirty one percent whatever it is. But
that's like I offensively, I still have concerns about dispers
And the other thing too is I don't think defenses
should do this where Boston did it in their one
game against San Antonio where they just they left Victor
Wembenyama so wide open. They they decided we don't want
him in the paint. But Victor Webenyama is shooting under
thirty three percent on wide open threes this year, just
like a weird oddity, And so does that creep into
it at all? But I'm more so worried about, well,
how do the Spurs respond when defenses are guarding their youngsters?
But not just Castle, but even a Dylan Harper, And
like Wemby, he's just played in big games before, something
claude to dismiss it. But what does he look like
in the playoffs? So I'm gonna favor the experience element there.
But what I would ask you, is there even another
team other than Denver that you would mention next to
San Antonio in this discussion?
Speaker 2: Well, so, I just I'm looking at it.
Speaker 3: I'm not looking at it as the second best the team.
If OKAC is most likely to come out of the
West in the playoffs, I'm not sure I would say
the Spurs are second most likely. I'm talking about like,
if there's a game tomorrow, I think the only team
I feel comfortable saying is better than san Antonio is
the thunder?
Speaker 2: Okay, if you're talking about because.
Speaker 3: I I do think I do think that there's stuff
the Spurs have not had to solve yet that they're
only going to learn how to solve by losing in
a playoff series. I really do think that is what's
likely to happen, and then they will solve it, and
then this time next year we're going to be talking
about them who knows.
Speaker 2: You know, in what kind of terms.
Speaker 3: I think you have to throw Denver in there. If
you're talking about who could come out of the West,
I think you have to throw the Wolves in there,
even though we jinxed them really badly.
Speaker 2: And I think that's probably where it stops.
Speaker 3: Because even with the uncertainty of like Houston, No, even
with the uncertainty of the Spurs.
Speaker 1: Who's more likely to win a playoff series this year?
The Rockets are the Lakers. That would have been a
good question.
Speaker 2: That might be a matchup dependent one that's close.
Speaker 3: But I would just say that I do believe the
Spurs are not fully cooked yet, and they still to
me are like no worse than the third or fourth
most likely team to come out of the West, which
I don't know. I don't know how that squares. That's
just how I feel.
Speaker 1: They're more picked them to win the title. The other
day he went out of you, which is just it's we.
We are not we. I trashed him for saying the
Spurs are gonna win fifty plus games this year. I
don't know if I took there, I don't remember. What
they're over under was that we have to go through that,
the fact that we're in March. And he could say
something like that and it's bold for sure, but that's.
Speaker 2: A heck and no I get it.
Speaker 3: I So I've been thinking lately about how some of
my preseason predictions about Wemby were very common, by the way,
not just me. He's gonna be a top five MVP candidate,
he's gonna win Defensive Player of the Year, He's gonna
do all this, and then I picked him for some ridiculously.
Speaker 2: Low win total.
Speaker 3: And friend of the Pod Bill just asked me, like,
how can both of these things happen? Like it's you know,
because if Wemby is this right, then they're gonna win
fifty whatever games and they're gonna like and hindsight, like, yeah,
that's right, I should have just the logical extension of
Wemby being as great as I and everybody else thought
he would be, is that the Spurs would be this
and here we are.
Speaker 2: It's we overthought it a little bit.
Speaker 3: I think there was no scenario where Wemby would be
this great and the Spurs would be a thirty seven
win team.
Speaker 2: That just isn't how it could work.
Speaker 1: We've reached the point of Wemby, by the way, where
there are corners of the Internet that are wondering if
he can win Defensive Player of the Year because the
way he defends isn't ethical enough, just because his physical
tools are so noveless.
Speaker 3: Yes, come on, so now so are like, does Tyree
s Maaxy have to slow down because it's not fair
that he's so fast?
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think he's missing time? Fast?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's a terrible take.
Speaker 1: Let's do one more to see if we could squeeze
in a mini stat padding afterwards. Which one we gonna Okay,
here's this one. So zach Low mentioned on his pod
that there is some traction gaining towards lottery reform that
includes incentivizing winning, not by disincentivizing losing necessarily making the
penalties harsher, but making wins contribute to lottery odds a
certain point in the season next year, So fact or fiction,
NBA lottery form will have wins count toward draft lot
of odds in some form next season.
Speaker 3: I think it's fact we've gone over the potential solutions,
you know, the sticking points are like, what is the
cutoff date? How do you how exactly do these how
much does each.
Speaker 2: Win help you?
Speaker 3: What kind of unintended consequences are going to be? It
does just feel like this is the way that that
things are trending. So I think it'll happen, you know.
I'm what I'm gonna say, though, is that it's a
half measure. I just as long as there's going to
be an incentive to lose at any point in the season,
teams are gonna are going to follow where the incentives lead.
This might help, though this is maybe a step towards
I don't know, a slightly better result.
Speaker 1: Would you have a date that you would prefer to
see where they like if they are gonna I don't
want to say arbitrarily split October thirtieth. Do you think
the unintended consequence of that would be we see some
really egregious early season. Yeah, tanking. I'm curious which team
would be most likely when you look at their current
roster landscape, that they're just gonna come out and look
so bad. Is it the Kings resting domas bonus out
load managing him out opening Night?
Speaker 3: I mean, I was it's gotta be a team that
has well, it'd probably be the same teams, don't you
think because you're not doing it? If I was just
thinking of, say Lebron is back with the Lakers and
they do a you know what, why don't you take
the first fifteen games off, just extend healthy work on
that sciatica. Well, they they're gonna try to make the playoffs.
This is this is terrible for them. This isn't about
the lottery odds. So I think the same teams that
are tanking now will be tanking next year. It'll just
be doing it at a different time. Which maybe that's
just like objectively way better because.
Speaker 1: More people are watching the NBA after the Super Bowl
and Christmas anyway, right right, and your product's better than
and and honestly, everybody's so excited about the beginning of
the season just naturally that maybe that is when.
Speaker 2: You want to sneak in a little, a little like.
Speaker 3: I don't need to watch this game because everybody's excited
about all the other stuff.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's not a perfect solution by any stretch. It's okay,
I'm alright with it.
Speaker 1: If this is what happens, I don't know, I might
go fiction because I don't know if the NBA has
the guts to do it, or if they do it. It
feels like it's going to be wins after March first,
which are just sort of late. Like how much does
that materially change anything? Maybe accompanied with some of the
draft pick limits or that they're planning on putting in place, or.
Speaker 3: Maybe they come down really hard with the fines and
the violations of the player participation stuff during that the
stretch where normal tanking is beneficial. Maybe that's like the
other edge of the sword, is they really just they're
just thrown out half million dollar fines left and right.
Speaker 1: Do you think that would change anything?
Speaker 3: I've already said probably not, just because you know you're
just if so safe from like the Jazz's perspective, You're
just trying. You're buying your way to the number one pick.
You're just willing to pay that price if it gets
you a better shot.
Speaker 2: At number one in the draft.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I'm just I think I'm like you.
There will be some shenanigans, and it'll be very strange
that they're happening in November and December, and who knows
how deep into the season.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be off putting.
Speaker 1: All right, So I went in fiction, you went fact
that we had a lot of we disagreed more than
we normally do.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the most contentious this podcast has been time for
Mini stat Padding. Will do a regular length stat Padding
hopefully at some point next week. But we've got some
there's some themes. There are streaks and scoring records that
are being throwing around, so let's let's see if we
can go through some of them. I will start with
this one for you, Grant. I believe we have a
joint one we could do, but I have this one
for you. Shake Gilges Alexander broke Wilt Chamberlain's consecutive twenty
point scoring streak for the regular season only by clearing
the one hundred and twenty six game threshold. There have
been twelve other players that have had twenty point streaks
in the regular season that have lasted at least fifty games.
How many of them can you name? I will give
you three strikes?
Speaker 3: All right, Well we'll go usual suspects to start. I
assume Jordan did it at least once.
Speaker 1: Jordan actually did it twice. Okay, I met John is
only one place I think? Did you think I met
Michael Jordan? I was talking about DeAndre. We'll just take
Michael Jordan. Thanks for the bonus. Happy accident by you,
uh Lebron. I'm gonna guess that is strike one? What oh?
Speaker 2: What a bum? Overrated? Okay? Whoa do you? Did?
Speaker 1: You?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: It's since Wilt so we're talking we could have it's
it's other than Shay, other than Shay. Oh, gimme so Wilt? Correct?
Do you know how many times he did it?
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know, entire seasons plus I don't a lot.
Speaker 1: Four times and one of the craziest Wilt stats I've
I've heard hat tip iron Eagle is so his streak
did span through the playoffs, but when he got to
Game one and twenty seven, he was ejected three minutes
in or whatever it was, and that's why he ended up.
And then he proceeded too after that game then go
on a ninety two game streak, so he could have
hit like where. I don't even remember what was the
actual streak it was after.
Speaker 2: That Hwy six or something like that.
Speaker 1: His streak was one twenty six. But then he went
on a ninety two game streak immediately after he got ejected, so.
Speaker 3: He probably had He probably had nineteen points in those
three minutes, so it was really close, you know, based
on the way things.
Speaker 2: Work back then.
Speaker 1: So you have two with one strike, we got Jordan.
Speaker 3: I'm tempted to go way back again and just I'll
maybe am I burning a strike here? I'll say Oscar Robertson.
Speaker 1: That is correct. You weren't burning anything. He did it
once for seventy nine games.
Speaker 2: It's pretty close to burning it. I don't if it's not.
Speaker 3: If Lebron didn't do it, I'm still gonna say Kevin
Durant he.
Speaker 1: Did it twice.
Speaker 3: Okay, let's see who else. Just there's got to be Oh,
surely Harden did.
Speaker 2: It in Houston.
Speaker 1: He did it once.
Speaker 2: Okay, how many do I have left?
Speaker 1: You have gotten? So you have gotten five of the twelve,
So there are some last twelve.
Speaker 2: There's no way we're getting a twelve.
Speaker 3: Who else had a bunch of fifty twenty point games
in a row?
Speaker 2: I can't believe it.
Speaker 1: One fairly obvious one?
Speaker 2: Oh Kareem?
Speaker 1: That is correct?
Speaker 2: All right? Uh?
Speaker 3: Okay, so now we're half We're halfway there. I can
fail and feel okay about it. Who else would just
constantly get twenty?
Speaker 2: How about Carmelo?
Speaker 1: That is incorrect? Strike two?
Speaker 3: That's unfortunate. I should probably there's probably somebody further back
that I need to be thinking about.
Speaker 2: Uh. Did did Jerry West do it?
Speaker 1: He did? He did it once. He's the last inclusion
on this list, by the way, fifty two game streak?
Speaker 2: Oh just barely? Okay? Uh? How about now?
Speaker 3: So like Shay, you can miss games right because he
missed the streak extends. It just matters for games you
played correct?
Speaker 2: Did Joel Embid do it?
Speaker 1: That is incorrect? Strike three? The name he missed? Elgin
Balor did it twice, Kobe did it once, Alan Iverson
did it once. Bob McAdoo did it once, and George
Gervin did it once.
Speaker 3: Okay, Gervin, I thought about Kobe is the one I
offered like that was that's stupid.
Speaker 1: That's still just sorted. I mean it's a long streak.
That was hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, hey and good one. What else
you got?
Speaker 1: Did you want to take us through the Kobe streak?
Which Kobe record might fall?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: So, Dan recently, I don't know if you heard about
this Bam out of bio broke Kobe Bryant's post Wilt
record of eighty one eighty three.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I know, I know ethically or in ethically. Well,
there's some debate on that. Do you want to do
twenty minutes on how Yeah, the opinions differ.
Speaker 2: I guess. Uh.
Speaker 3: So that makes me wonder what other historic marks by
Kobe Bryant are going to fall, if any, And maybe
I'll just run through them and you can just give
me let's say that yes or no, and then you
could nominate the player.
Speaker 2: I would say.
Speaker 3: Okay, So Kobe has the modern era record with four
straight fifty point games.
Speaker 2: Is that one gonna fall? And who's gonna break it?
Speaker 1: That one's gonna fall at some point. And if we're
looking at active players that I think are mostly I
would nominate Shay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The level of dependent like he's on a great team
and maybe they wouldn't play him in garbage time, but
the level of offensive dependence is, oh, he might just
if he gets to forty, that would is like they
might just keep him in there. So I could see
him if he got two straight fifty point games, which
I actually think he's done before, if he's anywhere close,
like on the third, and then get to the fourth,
I think they would. I think they would keep him
in there.
Speaker 2: I would nominate.
Speaker 3: I think Shay is probably the right pick. I do
think it will fall. I mean Anthony Edwards jumps to
mind as someone that might be able to do it.
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know why if.
Speaker 3: I mean, Luca is another one that could just like
next year, if if his role is somehow even bigger,
if that's a real possibility, I've steph. He had a
couple like high forties against the Spurs this year. It's
I just throw him out there as someone I can
imagine it being someone that runs incredibly hot from three,
because man, it's hard.
Speaker 1: To That's why Edwards is a good Steph would be
a better one if he wasn't gonna turn thirty eight
like right after we recorded this. But Edwards would be
a good one because he has the three point volume
and the foul drawing ability where Shay is the three
point volume is like kind of there, but it's kind
of not where Edwards is more likely to take ten
plus three point attempts in a game.
Speaker 3: Sure, all right, Kobe is the oldest player to score
at least sixty points in a game. He did it
at age thirty seven and two hundred and thirty four days.
So is somebody older than that gonna get sixty?
Speaker 2: And if so, who would that be?
Speaker 1: Yes, calling my shot, Steph Curry, you'll do it before
he retires done?
Speaker 3: I mean, book, it's it's it's like, I feel better
about that one than almost probably any other on here.
KD Like he's I mean, that's that's a that's a
strong one.
Speaker 1: As long as he doesn't have to play in crunch
time in that rockets all, I think it'll be prod.
Speaker 2: Right. The problem is he has to do it two
points at a time, and that's just hard.
Speaker 3: That's a lot of field goals, all right, I think
that's a that's a pretty straightforward one, all right, Kobe
is the youngest All Star ever at age nineteen and
one hundred and seventy days.
Speaker 1: Beatable before the NBA gets rid of the one and
done role.
Speaker 2: I don't know, this one feels pretty safe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's gonna stand. I think the
NBA needs to change the draft rules for that to
because even if even if someone will Cooper Flag have
qualified and he did, like he's getting voted in as
a reserve if it happens, or I guess Wemby could have,
could he because coaches gravitate towards players with experience, and
so you almost need to do it as a starter.
Speaker 3: And like, I think the fan vote being diminished is
a huge barrier to this, to this ever getting broken.
Like you could imagine there's a I mean, there's a
real world where Cooper Flag got voted into the All
Star Game this year, a fan vote counted for as
much as they used to. But by the way, Cooper
Flag right now is younger than Kobe was in his
first All Star Games, it is more beatable.
Speaker 1: It's like if aj Dibnsa just comes in in light
I don't even know how old he isn't.
Speaker 3: But well, you'd have to have guys like flag reclassified,
so he kind of was a year younger than he's
supposed to be. Okay, it feels like most kids are
going the other way, where they're doing eighth grade twice
as opposed to jumping ahead a year for athletic purposes,
So that one, I think that one might hold up.
How about how about this one? Among guards all time?
Kobe's thirty three thousand, six hundred and forty three points eight,
three hundred and seventy eight free throws and four and
ten turnovers are records? Are any of those gonna fall
among guards? So it's not, you know, points.
Speaker 1: I think the points will fall at some point. I
don't know who you're gonna I mean, could Luca get there,
we're gonna consider him a guard. It feels like that
will have to fall at something like the especially unless
the NBA does something to rein in three point volume.
Wouldn't you think that's the one most likely to fall?
And I guess by extension you could say free throws
would would fall then too.
Speaker 3: But Harden right now is like four thousand, forty five
hundred points away. So we're talking a couple more good
seasons from Harden and he's, Oh, he's gonna do it
then Yeah, So I mean maybe maybe as he slows
down even more, it'll take three to four. But if
he plays right up to age forty, he can get there.
Westbrook's not gonna catch him. He's at twenty seven thousand.
The Rozan's not getting there. STEP's too far away. I think, Yeah,
so it's probably gonna be hard, and then we're gonna
be waiting for like the Anthony Edwards class. And because
maybe Shay, I don't know, Shakefield, like he got too
late of a start.
Speaker 1: Do you not? Do you not think Luca will get there?
Speaker 3: Is he?
Speaker 2: I guess he's a guard. Luca might get there.
Speaker 3: I'm not of the mind that Luca is gonna have
a real like Luca's not playing until thirty eight, I
don't think.
Speaker 2: And I mean he's.
Speaker 3: Got a head start because he his career average is
twenty nine, so he's averaged. But he only has two
two thousand point seasons and he might get a third
this year. So you've got to you've got to rack
up the two thousand point seasons to get. I think
Nko is correct about Luca's durability and habits and leadership.
All right, this is the last one I have. Kobe
Bryant has sixteen and sixty one career points at Staples Center.
That is the most points by any player in an arena,
in a single arena. Is anybody gonna break that?
Speaker 2: And who might it be?
Speaker 1: Now the name of the arena changing? Does that matter
at all?
Speaker 3: I would say no, Just yeah, I would say, I
guess it's It's almost more like is is somebody gonna
get more than sixteen to one sixty one at home
for their career?
Speaker 1: I gets, well, And what about So how do you
take the case of Steph who goes from Oracle That
it's a different arena. So that's a different arena, doesn't.
Speaker 3: I mean, just to put it in perspective, steps at
like twenty three thousand points for his career, So if
he's an even split, he's still like five thousand points short,
even if you give him both arenas.
Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, I I want to hear what
you think about this one.
Speaker 1: You kind of need to pick someone who's gonna spend
their entire career with one team. The other thing, which
is like, what about Jokic and ball arena.
Speaker 3: That's an interesting one. Did he get an early enough start.
Let's just let's just look up what his career total's at.
He's got, he's got He's barely a thousand ahead of
Kobe's home total for his career, yo, because is at
seventeen six seventy three. If you evenly split, that give
him nine thousand points. So he's got a SCO seven
thousand more points at home. So that's probably like fourteen
thousand more points for his career. I mean, good luck, buddy,
I don't I don't think he's got le Bron.
Speaker 1: Split his career in too many different places to even
be on that.
Speaker 2: We're back to Edwards again. I think Edwards keeps coming up.
Speaker 1: But does Tatum have a chance?
Speaker 3: Adam is an interesting one that I didn't think about him.
Losing an entire season for the most part, definitely doesn't help.
Kobe never really had anything quite like well until towards
the end of his career. I obviously had the same injuries.
So Tatum is sitting at, oh, how many career points
do you think Tatum has? Knowing that Kobe scored sixteen
k at Staples whole career for Tatum, Uh, nine thousand.
It's you because of the way I framed the question.
You went lower than you should have. But thirteen thousand
career points for Tatum. This is his age twenty seven season.
He's not doing it. There's no I don't think there's
any I don't think. I don't think this one gets broken.
I think mainly because you need to be on one
team for a ridiculous number of years.
Speaker 2: I think that's the real barrier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's yeah. That I think that's the toughest one.
Speaker 3: It might be right because the fifty pointers might go
oldest to score sixty. That's definitely gonna get broken. Youngest
All Star that one that's up there too.
Speaker 1: I think if the NBA ever changes the one and
done rule, it'll then maybe, ye.
Speaker 2: Maybe we got a shot. Yeah, yeah, all right, that
was good. Yeah and hard.
Speaker 1: Are you ready to take this out of here though?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Thanks everybody for listening, for watching. Remember to rate for
view and subscribe. Join our discord links for that in
the YouTube and podcast description. Got a mail bag episode
coming up soon ish, time to submit do that on
our discord or I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been delayed, so you have until you might
have another week to get your questions. And we've got
a bunch of good questions. But goes to four.
Speaker 3: If you haven't already, tell your friend Sillier Mmy's shout
sprinkling like Keeno.
Speaker 2: Apologies. Jared Allen