WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:06.040 in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcast. Hey 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:08.320 there are true Believers. Andy Nelson here from the Marvel 4 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:10.839 Movie Minute podcast with the rest of the team Mate right, 5 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:14.839 Kyle Wilson, Rob Cobosco, and Matthew Fox. This is the 6 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:18.199 podcast where we dissect the Marvel cinematic universe one minute 7 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:22.199 at a time, exploring every detail of this epic superhero franchise. 8 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.000 In our season looking at iron Man three, we're gonna 9 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:25.760 mix things up a bit. 10 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:28.079 That's right, Rob and I are your guide, but instead 11 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:30.679 of our usual minute by minute format, we dive into 12 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.320 five minutes of the film in each weekly episode. 13 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.079 It's a totally new approach, but one that still allows 14 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.119 us to explore all the depth and detail that makes 15 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:42.880 these movies so special, even if Ironman three isn't all 16 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.000 that's special. 17 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:50.079 Hold on, that's where you're wrong. Extrememists Shane Black, Yeah. 18 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:51.840 Would you like to look at the Mandarin and Maya Hanson. 19 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.200 So, whether you're a die hard Marvel fan or just 20 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.039 love deep dives into movies, there's something for everyone on 21 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:01.799 Marvel Movie Minute. 22 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:04.319 Shoot up and join us on this epic audio adventure. 23 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.079 You can find us a true story dot fm or 24 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.319 by searching Marvelmovie Minute on your favorite podcatcher. 25 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.239 Because in the Marvel Cinematic universe, every minute is packed 26 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:13.920 with excitement. 27 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:26.560 Enough said, Okay, now for the lightning round. I'm so 28 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:27.959 good at lightning rounds. 29 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:29.959 That's from Friends, It's my favorite show. 30 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.120 Twenty seconds on the Clock starts. Now who is the 31 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.480 captain of the USS Enterprise? Crap? 32 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:38.120 Is it Captain Stubing? 33 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:45.359 No, Morgan crunch? Next question, which superhero is Tony Stark? Stark? 34 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:49.400 Did Game of Thrones have superheroes? I only watched two episodes? 35 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.519 What planet where Luke and Leah born on Planet Fitness? 36 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:56.120 Oh? 37 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:01.040 Time's up? Sorry? And now a word from our sponsor. 38 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.439 Hey everybody, Mandy Kaplan here. Please check out my podcast 39 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:08.240 Make Me a Nerd, where each week an incredible guest 40 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.400 tries to baptize this mainstream mom into the world of 41 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:16.240 sci fi, fantasy and all things nerdy. Available wherever you podcast. 42 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:19.360 That's our show, folks, Wait, wait, weeit, I just thought 43 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.000 of it. Padme Amidala gave birth to her twins, Luke 44 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:24.479 and Leah on Poulus Masa No that's dumb? 45 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:25.879 Is it planned? Hollywood? 46 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:38.879 Question asked in the second season episode of Star Trek 47 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.240 Voyager called Tuvis and the episode and the question we're 48 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:45.360 going to be discussing here on superhero ethics. I'm Matthew, 49 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:47.919 your host. I'm joined by Riki, my co host, Riky. 50 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:49.879 How are we doing today and how you feel about 51 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:50.879 talk about Star Trek. 52 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.159 Yeah, I'm always excited to talk about Star Trek, Matthew, 53 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.719 and I'm surprised we haven't done it before this. I 54 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.840 believe this is the first time we're dealing with a 55 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:01.719 solely Star Trek issue, and I hope to do it 56 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.400 more because there are a lot of standout episodes like 57 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:09.240 this one, like two Vicks, where there's a central ethical 58 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.879 moral dilemma that speaks to, you know, larger issues, and 59 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.479 it's just a very well done episode in general. 60 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:19.479 Yeah, I think I really agree with that. 61 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.639 I've talked before about how Star Trek is kind of 62 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:26.120 my bread and butter in terms of ethical discussions in 63 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.199 science fiction, because this is this was the show my 64 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.680 mother loved. She loved the original series, she thought Next 65 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.319 Generation was okay. I don't think she ever watched the 66 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:36.439 newer ones and she passed away long before Discovery and 67 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:38.080 things like that, but you know, she and I would 68 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:40.919 watch original episodes of the She and I would watch 69 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:42.960 episodes of the original series, and she'd ask me about 70 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:45.599 the questions and comparing them and talking about how they 71 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:48.800 applied to real life. And I've said many times that's 72 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.039 kind of for me. The point of this episode is 73 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.599 to really honor and talk about that kind of science 74 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:59.439 fiction and fantasy and storytelling we expanded pretty wide that 75 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.199 that raises questions that have relevance for our own world. 76 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:04.960 And I think part of what I like about this 77 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:07.520 episode so much, and Star Trek I think does this 78 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.360 a lot, and especially the Oriville does this as well. 79 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:14.840 It's one thing to create a science fiction or a 80 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:18.240 fantasy or anything like that that is very clearly just 81 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.600 an exact, one for one analogue of something in our 82 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:24.480 current world where you're making a point about that. And 83 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.959 I think that's fine. I think something sometimes I think 84 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:31.720 that's really interesting and sometimes really needed. But I think 85 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.040 science fiction is really at its best where instead of 86 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:38.839 being an exact mirror, it says, okay, what if we 87 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:41.959 take that question or that whole range of questions in 88 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.439 humanity at the moment and put them into a different 89 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.000 light and put them in put them with a very 90 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:50.199 different spin that makes us question them in a whole 91 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:54.279 new ways because to me, the point like there's extent 92 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:56.720 to which the so the basis of this episode is 93 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.879 that two of the main characters, tu Vac and Neelix. 94 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.720 Tuvac is a Vulcan and is the second the security 95 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.639 officer and sort of the best friend and confidant of 96 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:11.360 Janeway the captain, and he's he's often played off as 97 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:16.040 the very opposite of Neelix. Neelix is a Tulaxian, a 98 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.399 character we haven't seen in Star Wars before because they 99 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:21.680 come from the Delta Quadrant in Star Trek. I'm sorry, 100 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:23.360 I'm gonna keep making that mistake in Star Trek, which 101 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.959 they are now exploring. And he's he's very much the 102 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:30.720 McCoy to mister Kutuvac Spock, except instead of being sort 103 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:34.079 of gloomy and emotional, he's happy and emotional, and he's bouncy, 104 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:36.839 and he's he always is trying to cheer up mister 105 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.319 Tuvac in all sorts of ways where he refers to 106 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.160 him mister Vulcan, and the two of them are put 107 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:44.759 on a mission, and during the course of the mission, 108 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:49.160 because of Star Trek science, there's a transporter accident and 109 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.639 the two of them get merged into one being. And 110 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.639 this one being has a lot of the elements of both. 111 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.879 It has a lot of the logic and technical skill 112 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.279 and tactical skill that Tuvac has, while still having the 113 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.120 humor and good nature of Neelik and even and being 114 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:08.600 able to do a lot of the skills of both, 115 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:10.800 but in some ways better. Able to be a great 116 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:13.240 like leader of the security forces, but also relate to 117 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.839 them more with humor, able to be a cook, but 118 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:17.120 actually a better cook. 119 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:20.319 A better cook, also. 120 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.399 Somehow having enough hours in the day to do both 121 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.279 of those full time jobs, which apparently is another part 122 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:27.000 of Star Trek science that we're not going to even 123 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:31.399 get into. But at the as the episode comes to 124 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:34.959 an end, uh they realize that there's a scientific way 125 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.519 to undo this process and to remove to Tuvix, which 126 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.920 is what this sort of conjoined being calls themselves, because 127 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.519 it's a new being is it is not Tuvac, is 128 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:50.519 not Tuvac or Nelix. It's a new being, and they 129 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:53.560 have a way to bring back the original two, which 130 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.639 will of course erase Tuo Vix and a RaSE is 131 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.279 one word you could use for it. Tuvex himself says, 132 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.720 this is murder. You are going to kill me by 133 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.879 doing this, and he appeals to the goodwill of the 134 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:07.600 crew and sort of says Janeway. Because Janeway decides that 135 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.639 they're going to go forward with this, two Vix appeals 136 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.600 to her and makes this kind of like and here's 137 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:15.879 part of what makes the episodes too interesting, the kind 138 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.959 of very ethical appeal that in Star Trek is supposed 139 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:23.120 to convince us or convince us that the people acting 140 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:27.800 against wrong, and instead Janeway goes ahead and does the thing. 141 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:30.839 The doctor be a part of it because he says 142 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:36.560 he cannot do no harm. That doesn't attack that buttically 143 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.480 do all the things to press the transporter button, to 144 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.360 do the radio. I see it it possible, and Ween 145 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.560 and Neelix back and no one's sort of saying whether 146 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.120 this was the right or wrong decision. So that's just 147 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.720 kind of kind of give it more framing, And Riki, 148 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:55.959 what do you think of her decision? 149 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:59.920 Well, I want to start first by in terms of framing, 150 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.079 just go over the I guess biography of this episode 151 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.319 real yeaking for So this is season two of Voyager, 152 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:10.839 episode twenty four of the season, so it's very late 153 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.240 in season two overall of the fortieth episode of the show. 154 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:20.120 The story was written by Andrew Shepherd Price and Mark Gaberman, 155 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.959 the teleplay by Kenneth Biller, and then it was directed 156 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:29.600 by Cliff Bowle. It aired in on May sixth, almost 157 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:36.799 May fourth, nineteen ninety six. So for listeners who aren't aware, 158 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:40.000 I want to remind people, like television was very different 159 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.200 in the nineties, just based on the episode count right, 160 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:47.639 episode twenty four, like most TV shows had twenty six 161 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:52.440 episodes per season, so it was a very long season. 162 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.120 You have to have what we often describe as filler episodes, 163 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.759 and this is like, this is definitely a filler episode, 164 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:04.960 right in terms of what Star Trek Voyager is. It 165 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:10.720 doesn't advance really the main plot of getting them home sooner. 166 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:15.600 There's no overarching like villain of the season. I believe 167 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.000 season two they were still dealing with like the Kson, 168 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.639 so there's nothing that interacts with the overall main plots 169 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.279 of the show. So this is filler, but this is 170 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:31.759 amazing filler. And going back to your question, what do 171 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.080 I think of her decision? Well, I think I mean, 172 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.320 just in one sentence, I'll say it's murder, it's capital punishment, 173 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:41.159 and I think it's wrong. 174 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:43.279 That's fair, that's fair. 175 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.559 Yeah, I let me just start with the framing of 176 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:48.159 it and then we can get into like the rights 177 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.000 and wrongs of it and all of the stuff that 178 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.960 prounds it. I think that I think you're right that 179 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:56.799 in some way it is filler. But it is filler 180 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:59.279 of the very best kind. And the thing that I 181 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:05.600 think is so often lost in the Disney Plus mini 182 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.200 series kind of era that we're living in now, because 183 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:14.320 you know, I love serialized storytelling, but there's another kind 184 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:16.879 of storytelling that episodic can be a part of. Where 185 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:20.480 it is episodic, but it's also like the episodes are 186 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:23.759 part of a longer theme. Because the whole point of 187 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:29.200 Star Trek Voyager is what happens when a particular voyager 188 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.080 is teleported, you know, all the way across the galaxy, 189 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:38.080 has no communication anymore with their friends, their family, with Starfleet, 190 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:41.480 with anything else. They are completely on their own and 191 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:43.600 they have to figure out what to do to survive 192 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:48.240 and get back. And in terms of Jane Way, her 193 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:53.840 overall story is the need to frankly become harder and 194 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:57.679 harder as a person because of the need to make 195 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:02.679 these very unfortunate decisions that sometimes we may disagree with 196 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.840 and sometimes but that I think that that Jane Way 197 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.440 feels that she has to make in order to make 198 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:12.200 in order to let the ship survive and her crew 199 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.039 survive and her crew get home, and that I think 200 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:18.879 the question that she's wrestling with throughout the show is 201 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:23.440 when and where can I live to my principles and 202 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:25.919 where and where when and where should I abandon my 203 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:30.080 principles in order to do what seems more pragmatic or 204 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:32.919 more more you know, efficient in the moment, rather than 205 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:36.600 what is my principle would say. And I just I 206 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.559 think that for that reason, episodes like this kind of 207 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.960 are the heart of the show in that they are it's. 208 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:45.360 Filler and that it's a one off episode. 209 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:47.600 To me, this episode is an essential part of that 210 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.960 journey of how she gets there, So it's like it's filler, 211 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.759 but also it's it's essential to the story. 212 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:55.960 Yeah. 213 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:56.639 Absolutely. 214 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:59.080 The thing for me. 215 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:05.519 That I don't like about Voyager as a show is 216 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.440 that it doesn't come back to things like the episodic 217 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:12.840 nature is like like a fire and forget like we 218 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.159 wrote this episode, it's excellent. The name Tuvix is never 219 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.879 mentioned again in Voyager. Yeah right, And this is supposed 220 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:25.159 to be like a very important issue, not just for 221 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.039 us as viewers, but for the people I show. Like 222 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.879 the episode itself takes place over I don't know, I'd 223 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:35.399 probably say weeks, right, Like they have kind of montages, 224 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.440 montage things where we are shown two Vix like doing 225 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.000 the job of Tuvak and Neelix and interacting with crew 226 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.799 members and giving the sense that time has passed, and 227 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:48.799 that's part of the important thing, Like this isn't just 228 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.320 a two vix existed for a day and like we're 229 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.000 switching it back, like no two Vix was a part 230 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:56.960 of the crew for Like again, I'm gonna say weeks, 231 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:01.159 if not months maybe and given a chance to be 232 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.879 a person on the ship. And that's part of the 233 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:07.600 issue here. And I also want to go back and 234 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:12.639 say the actor who plays tuovis his name is Tom Wright. 235 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.039 So they got a completely different actor from Tim Russ 236 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:22.360 and Ethan Phillips who played tuvakan Neelix, respectively, and he 237 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.799 came in and kind of drew upon like his knowledge 238 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:27.799 of you know, they filled him in on the characters 239 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.799 he was portraying, and he watched some episodes and also 240 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.120 like interacted with the actors themselves to get some of 241 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:36.879 their mannerisms, and he did an excellent job. Like Tom Wright, 242 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.039 is part of the reason this is so effective is 243 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.600 that we feel like he is a distinct person, but 244 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:47.240 we recognize the elements of the other two in so 245 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:48.600 he did an excellent job. 246 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.320 Yeah, that's good, And. 247 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:52.000 That's part of it. 248 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.440 Is like we as the audience feel this weight, yeah, 249 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:01.039 because we're like, oh, yeah, like two ficks, Like we 250 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.399 are engineered by the show to like the other two 251 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.039 because we've interacted with them for a season and a half, 252 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:11.120 almost two seasons, and I think there's a there's a 253 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.639 television show conceit that. Yeah, like the other two are 254 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.159 coming back, like we can't get rid of them, right, 255 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.200 but gosh darn, Like what if we had two Vicks 256 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.879 for the rest of the show. Right, I'm not getting 257 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:27.480 anything right now. I don't know if you can hear me, 258 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:32.559 and I don't know how the recording goes on your end, 259 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:34.399 but I've. 260 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:35.559 Just got silence right now. 261 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:37.480 So I would totally agree with you there. I think 262 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.919 that the actor himself does a fantastic job. I never 263 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:44.279 really feel like it's like, oh, he's Neelix now, or 264 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.399 oh he's two VOCs now. In every moment, it feels 265 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:50.039 like this is a synthesis of those two people, not 266 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:51.919 the two people sort of fighting for. 267 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.960 Control at any one moment. And I also want to. 268 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:56.879 Lift up the special effects and to make up people 269 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:00.279 for that exact same reason, because I never look at 270 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.720 this character and think, oh, that doesn't really look like 271 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.320 what I think a fusion of these two would look 272 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.480 like like. I never for a moment doubt it, and 273 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.679 remembering this is also like late nineties, early two thousands technology. 274 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.080 This is not I'm sorry, no, even earlier. This is like, yeah, 275 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:17.200 I think probably it's like late mid to late nineties 276 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.159 when this is coming out. Maybe let me take it again. 277 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.039 I remember, this is like technology that's twenty five years 278 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.440 old probably, So it's not even like they're using all 279 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:27.440 the cgi of today. 280 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:32.200 They're just doing great makeup. And here's what I'll get to. 281 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:33.480 What I think is one of the things that I 282 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:36.559 find so challenging about this episode and thus makes me 283 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:38.440 kind of like hate and love the writers because I 284 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:41.879 think it's very intentional. I made a joke about this earlier, 285 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.399 but I don't find Nelix a very enjoyable character to 286 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.159 have on screen. He gets better after Cass is gone, 287 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.200 because I think his treatment of Cass is one of 288 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.200 the things I dislike most about him, But like I 289 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:55.720 think he is incredibly rude to Tuvoc and sort of 290 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:59.759 not accepting and understanding Tuvak's a lack of emotions. I 291 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:04.480 think I just find him annoying on screen, and I 292 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:09.720 find Tuvis to be often quite annoying on screen. I 293 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.440 don't enjoy him as a character, and I found myself 294 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:19.720 really missing Tuvac. And then I think to myself, is 295 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.840 that part of why I am okay with Janeway killing 296 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.840 him to bring those two back? Because I don't like 297 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:31.320 him because I find him uncomfortable. And to me, that's 298 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.960 one of the best like mind screws of the whole episode, 299 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:38.159 because I think that's it's impossible for the characters themselves 300 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.600 to divorce themselves of that question. You know, Cass is 301 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:44.559 someone who I think has kind of made the focus 302 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:47.440 of it in some ways. She has a romantic relationship 303 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.480 with Neelick, she has this spiritual and sort of mentor 304 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:54.360 relationship with Tuvac. She misses them greatly. Jane Way misses 305 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:59.120 them greatly, and I feel like the show doesn't give 306 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.399 us us way to get off the hook of that 307 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.319 of saying, oh no, we would do this under any circumstances. 308 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.400 It seems pretty clear that there are emotional feelings for 309 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:10.680 the two people who are going to be brought back, 310 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:12.960 and maybe even for some of them, they are annoyance 311 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.599 at the person who isn't is a part of us, 312 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:17.920 and certainly it's a part of how I watch it, 313 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:19.839 which I think is exactly the point. 314 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.720 Mm hmm. I completely agree with you on the makeup 315 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:31.920 department because for me, I find two Vick's his look yeah, uncomfortable, 316 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.319 ugly even, And I'm not saying ugly, like the actor 317 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.039 is a good looking person, like they are in Hollywood, 318 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.640 and the makeup is competently done, well done, But I 319 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:47.680 think the unfamiliarity makes it uncomfortable because we see aspects 320 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.960 of both both of the previous characters and we've gotten 321 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.519 used to them to some degree, right, Like I'm I 322 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.240 to him not a fan of Neelix, like either his 323 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:58.640 character or his look, but we've gotten used to him 324 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:00.680 at this point in the show. So when you were 325 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:05.200 presented like it's Uncanny Valley almost, and you're like, I 326 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:09.200 don't like this character for some reason, and like Neelix 327 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.000 is supremely problematic in the show for multiple reasons, and 328 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.559 they highlight the one at the beginning and you mentioned this. 329 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:23.359 He keeps calling Tuvak mister Vulcan in like this funny 330 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.440 like hey buddy, mister Vulcan kind of way, and that's awful, 331 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.319 Like Vulcan is a race. Can you imagine having a 332 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.400 friend like can you imagine calling me like mister Japanese 333 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.640 or mister japan Like I'd be like, the heck are 334 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.039 you doing? 335 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.519 Especially while he was constantly trying to like convince you 336 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:43.640 to not be some of the things that you think 337 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.960 of as being a parent to being you know, Japanese American. Yeah, 338 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.519 because it's not just any saying I'm recognizing your thing. 339 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.200 It's like he's constantly saying I wish you would smile more. 340 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:55.960 Yeah, stop, He's like stop being a Vulcan basically, So 341 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.160 it would be like if I was like, hey, Matthew, 342 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:01.319 like I cooked fried rice today because you know, I 343 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.079 like fried rice, and you'd be like, oh, like, that's 344 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.599 that's a fun mail mister Japanese. 345 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:15.960 Like me, yeah, And I think that that's where I'm sorry, 346 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.920 and I think that that is again it's it's so 347 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:21.759 intentional of the writers to put us in that situation 348 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:24.720 where we're asking ourselves how much of this is about 349 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:29.680 our individual feelings about these characters, Because you know, I 350 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.400 studied ethics in college and grad school. It's a part 351 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.480 of my degree. And one of the things that ethics 352 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:37.920 really likes to do in terms of the formal study 353 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.440 of it is try to separate out the individual actors 354 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.680 of an individual situation and come up with a more 355 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.880 general rule, you know, like you shouldn't kill. I think 356 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.839 it's a pretty standard basic or at least you shouldn't 357 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:58.200 murder is a pretty basic ethical rule in most ethical 358 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:02.160 systems and religions and people points of view. But then 359 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.480 when you make it very much more specific, you know, 360 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:06.519 it gets it gets into questions of like, okay, well, 361 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:08.359 is this person a danger? Is this part like you know, 362 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:10.519 all of those kind of things that can happen, And 363 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:12.599 the point is say no, no, we should have a rule 364 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:14.799 that isn't about the specifics, that is. 365 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:15.880 It a general rule. 366 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:20.599 And part of what makes this so challenging is this 367 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.799 isn't a situation that we've faced before or that we're 368 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:24.559 going to face again. 369 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:25.799 And this is kind of what I was saying before. 370 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.799 This is a very unique situation that probably no one 371 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:31.759 in the galaxy is going to face again because it's 372 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.240 all about this very rare flower and you know, the 373 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.319 techno babble that Star Trek does, it's kind of make 374 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:40.599 it all make sense. And so you know, it's not something, 375 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.119 as I said at the beginning, it's not something that 376 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:43.920 I can apply as a one for one situation. 377 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.920 I will mention that the Star Trek show Lower Decks 378 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:53.359 actually encounters the situation again, because that show is a 379 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:56.599 is a meta commentary on Star Trek in general, and 380 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:01.079 it's it's a very funny episode where like, for whatever reason, 381 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:05.839 they're transporting this flower because that's the technobabble, as you said, 382 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.519 and two characters get and they actually use it as 383 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:12.440 a verb two mixed, and because it's a comedy show, 384 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:19.319 that character actually the Captain reads Janeway's log She's like, oh, 385 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.720 like this is exactly what happened on Voyage with Jane Way, 386 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:23.960 and then she reads the log and she's like, the 387 00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:27.039 f like they murdered him. They killed him. I think 388 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:30.720 that's the name of the episode. They killed him, and 389 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.839 the person who is too vexed also reads the log 390 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:35.759 is like, oh, heck no, like I'm not down for 391 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:40.279 that and ends up like capturing other crew members and 392 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.039 two fixing them. So it's kind of like a like 393 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:48.799 invasion of the body Snatchers thing and then like the 394 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.000 characters like end up fixing everything obviously, but it's it's 395 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.920 a fun callback. And I liked that the writers of 396 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:01.079 the show were like, yeah, like he murdered that guy, 397 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.240 mm hmm, because that's how I feel, right, is yeah, 398 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.480 And I think we should talk about this because Star 399 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:14.880 Trek has this framework of morality that has become famous, right, 400 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.920 the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the 401 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.640