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<v Speaker 1>Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's first episode of

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<v Speaker 1>the Nonprofits. In kind of a Weird Flex, Kelvin coberis

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<v Speaker 1>pastor for New Life Christian Church International. Excuse me a

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<v Speaker 1>New Life Church International of Plant City, Florida, chose an

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<v Speaker 1>anecdote about an alleged recent donation of ten thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 1>to drive home the message of a recent sermon. In

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<v Speaker 1>a video posted to Twitter on June fifth by right

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<v Speaker 1>Wing Watch, Colberts dramatically recounted a story of a vague

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<v Speaker 1>unnamed man asking the pastor for his wiring instructions and

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<v Speaker 1>then casually dropping ten bands in his personal account a

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<v Speaker 1>few days later. Beautifully, Even among Christians, the pastor's actions

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<v Speaker 1>have been ill received, with some leaving comments such as

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<v Speaker 1>good look at the Pearly Gates pastor, and another referring

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<v Speaker 1>to it as disgraceful. This story is from the Bin

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<v Speaker 1>News by the Black Information Network on June twenty third,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty fifth. So I have there's a little more

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<v Speaker 1>I want to add, but I want to hear from

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<v Speaker 1>you guys. First, John by Calvin's own admission, that will

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<v Speaker 1>kind of get into it. He received this donation. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to call it a gift because it went to him,

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<v Speaker 1>not to his church, So I think calling it a

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<v Speaker 1>donation is a bit generous, charitable, you could say. But

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<v Speaker 1>he received this for as an incentive for supporting Donald Trump,

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<v Speaker 1>for you know, speaking that way in his sermons. So

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<v Speaker 1>definitionally it's it's a violation of the Johnson Amendment. So

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<v Speaker 1>color me cynical here, But are we surprised by any

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<v Speaker 1>part of this? And do you think we even should

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<v Speaker 1>expect Colberts to face any consequences or is this just

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<v Speaker 1>another case of pastors going to past.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in my not, so it strikes me, let's just

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<v Speaker 2>put it this way. It strikes me as normal for

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<v Speaker 2>the religious grifters in the world, who who want to

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<v Speaker 2>be on the take for whatever they can get from anybody.

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<v Speaker 2>If a thin man guy, some mysterious figure, it sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like he's trying to hide where he really got it from. Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>well I don't know who gave it to me. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, people don't throw ten grand at somebody without

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<v Speaker 2>at least having a receipt, you know, So it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell? This thing sounds shady from the beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't surprise me at all, And will he

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<v Speaker 2>have to you know, cough up the money or something,

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<v Speaker 2>if you know, is the I R S going to

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<v Speaker 2>hit him? They're a five oh one c four religious organization,

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<v Speaker 2>so no, they don't even have to show their books

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<v Speaker 2>to anybody. The only thing we know about it is

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<v Speaker 2>that he said so. So it's like there's no, there's

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<v Speaker 2>not going to be no repercussions to him, at least

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<v Speaker 2>not at the moment. Maybe in the future there'll be

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<v Speaker 2>laws passed against this source yet political contributions to churches

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<v Speaker 2>to keep doing political things, which is illegal. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know, but hopefully if there's a h in

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<v Speaker 2>the future, when there's some actual rational people in office,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get something on that or to that effect. The

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<v Speaker 2>IRS right now is powerless because they defunded them and

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<v Speaker 2>they are trying to make sure that they don't do

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<v Speaker 2>things like audit the billionaires who cheat on their taxes regularly.

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<v Speaker 2>So there we go.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and to be I was thinking the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a chance that, like, you know, is this going

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<v Speaker 1>to stop in the future. Maybe, But at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>we recently within the past couple of months on the

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<v Speaker 1>nonprofits covered there's somewhere where there's a discussion about removing

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<v Speaker 1>the restrictions on charitable organizations from participating in, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>political activities to a certain degree. So not only would

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<v Speaker 1>this not be enforced more, but they would be removing it,

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<v Speaker 1>and this would just start taking place legally more because

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<v Speaker 1>like they're already doing this anyway, so let's yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're not punishing them for it, so let's just remove

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<v Speaker 1>the restriction. It's kind of how we interviewed that. But

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<v Speaker 1>you said that it seems kind of fishy, and I agree.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he made it up. The details they feel

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<v Speaker 1>to me like they kind of just like they manifested

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<v Speaker 1>in a way like that they're just right to convince

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<v Speaker 1>you that it really happened. The man like he talks

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<v Speaker 1>about being in the Rose Garden, which maybe it's a

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<v Speaker 1>place that his congregation's familiar with.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, but didn't Trump dig up the rose Garden

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<v Speaker 2>in the White House? Didn't they?

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<v Speaker 1>Possibly? I'm not familiar, but he was. He was talking

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<v Speaker 1>about having been at the White House, so maybe maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that is, you know, what he's.

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<v Speaker 2>Talking about part of the White House lawn. So I'm

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<v Speaker 2>thank Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I probably should have put that together,

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<v Speaker 1>ask for his wiring instructions he gave him to him,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the pastor even offers like for no reason,

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<v Speaker 1>like how much money he thought the guy might send him,

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<v Speaker 1>which means that either he was like fixated on this amount,

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<v Speaker 1>which is kind of a strange thing for someone who's

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<v Speaker 1>receiving a donation genuinely, or he's he's making it up

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<v Speaker 1>and he's including that detail just to intensify the impact

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<v Speaker 1>of like the true donation. But Damien, we haven't given

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<v Speaker 1>you a chance yet, so just kind of like generally

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<v Speaker 1>and vaguely, I guess, and you know what, what's your

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<v Speaker 1>sort of take on this? How did how did this

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<v Speaker 1>Leand for you.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, look for me, I think the biggest thing to

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<v Speaker 3>me is ask the question how far has Christianity come

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<v Speaker 3>from its roots? Because if you read the Pauline epistles,

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<v Speaker 3>you will see that Paul basically boasts about how poor

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<v Speaker 3>he is and that he has to support himself in

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<v Speaker 3>order to continue the ministry, to support the true And

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<v Speaker 3>I know we're all irreligious here, but I think there's

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<v Speaker 3>something to be said about those churches that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>run on the smell of an oily rag. I think

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<v Speaker 3>I've used this line before, because you know, they're the

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<v Speaker 3>ones who are doing it for the genuine love of it,

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<v Speaker 3>whereas there's just something really weird about American Christianity, where

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<v Speaker 3>Christianity is in so much a movement as it is

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<v Speaker 3>a business. And so I'm looking, I'm looking at this,

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<v Speaker 3>and I saw the video of the pastor like talking

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<v Speaker 3>about it, and like he has got the big building,

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<v Speaker 3>he's got the nice, nice suit, and he's well, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>made up, and you know it looks very slick and professional.

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<v Speaker 3>But he is one among many. You know, you can

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<v Speaker 3>name like a dozen pastors who have this really high

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<v Speaker 3>profile image and are about riches and about how much

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<v Speaker 3>money they're getting. You know, you can say Joel Osting,

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<v Speaker 3>Kenneth Copeland, krefflow Dollar.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a Florida man, Florida man. It's a little

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<v Speaker 2>different from me.

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<v Speaker 3>So so I think what Jonathan mentioned about this possibly

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<v Speaker 3>being a violation of the five oh one CE regulations

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<v Speaker 3>about about donations being made. But then the problem is

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<v Speaker 3>is that unless assuming this is real, this actually happened,

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that it went to him rather than the

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<v Speaker 3>church is a bit of a you know, a bit

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<v Speaker 3>of a workaround. And so the fact that this so,

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that this money went to him, how much

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<v Speaker 3>how much of that ten k will his congregation? See?

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<v Speaker 3>What will he do with that ten k? Will he

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<v Speaker 3>support you know, like homeless people will support domestic violence victims?

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<v Speaker 3>Will he you know, help a single mother? And yeah, exactly,

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<v Speaker 3>this is my This is my thing. This is if

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<v Speaker 3>this were I suppose like a more genuine social Christianity,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, that ten k would be use for charitable

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<v Speaker 3>purposes to help the congregation rather than to gain interest

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<v Speaker 3>in this guy's big fat bank account.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And one of the things that makes it a

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<v Speaker 2>little fishy is since the whole story smells like weak

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<v Speaker 2>old fish the the you know, the whole story. Did

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<v Speaker 2>he just griff or did he just skim this off

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<v Speaker 2>the top of this great congregation? And needing an explanation

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<v Speaker 2>for the deposit in his account? You know, who knows

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<v Speaker 2>what their internal auditing is, but you know, probably not

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<v Speaker 2>very strong, I would think, or.

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<v Speaker 3>It's interesting by him or his family, and so any

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<v Speaker 3>internal orders will just whitewash.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is interesting. I didn't think about my time.

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, like, we kind of tend to agree

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<v Speaker 1>that it seems like he made it up, but that's

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<v Speaker 1>not super unheard of. Like pastors always seem to have

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<v Speaker 1>a person that provides them with an anecdote from some

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<v Speaker 1>time in their life that just happens to fit exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what their message is. And in this case, for for

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<v Speaker 1>Kevin Goberis, in this sermon, it was give me money,

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<v Speaker 1>Me plus money equals good. But I think they're like

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<v Speaker 1>some other possibilities for like like uh, making up something

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<v Speaker 1>like this that I thought is like he's because he's

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<v Speaker 1>he's a person of color and because of who he

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<v Speaker 1>supports politically, it's becoming increasingly unpopular for people going to

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<v Speaker 1>hold that view. So I thought like perhaps as like

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<v Speaker 1>I say, hey, like you know, I started doing this

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<v Speaker 1>and good things started happening to me, So this is

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<v Speaker 1>what God wants me to do. And like that's part

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<v Speaker 1>of the second one, like, hey, church, this is what

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<v Speaker 1>God wants me to do. So if you're supporting me,

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<v Speaker 1>you're supporting what God wants. And like the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>he's asking for more money during this this you know,

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<v Speaker 1>uh sermon is not doing him any favors to convince

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<v Speaker 1>me that he just received this this large donation and

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't look like he's hurting for money in the

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<v Speaker 1>first place, like you mentioned earlier about his his his

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<v Speaker 1>his settings during in the video. Yeah, so yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean we kind of all it seem to be on

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<v Speaker 1>the same page about that. I like the point you made, Damien.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry I had to remember which one of you

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<v Speaker 1>said it about, Like who where where the money went to? Right,

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<v Speaker 1>because you said it didn't go to his church, it

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<v Speaker 1>went to him, So does that change the legality of it?

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<v Speaker 1>But what I think is what my concerns about the

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<v Speaker 1>legality essentially is not that he received the money because

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<v Speaker 1>churches run on donations. That and a person can donate

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<v Speaker 1>to a church because they like that message regardless of

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<v Speaker 1>what the message is. But it is the message that

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<v Speaker 1>he is using his platform for, whether he is receiving

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<v Speaker 1>the money or the church is receiving it, I think

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<v Speaker 1>is more of a I don't want to say non

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<v Speaker 1>issue necessarily, but as far as legally, I think it

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<v Speaker 1>hinges more on what he's using his platform form for.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think about that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's well, there was a line that he says,

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<v Speaker 3>I should have went this way a long time ago,

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<v Speaker 3>and to me, that says it's not about the principle

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<v Speaker 3>of supporting Trump, but the rewards that he can get

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<v Speaker 3>personally for doing so. That that's me kind of says,

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<v Speaker 3>says everything I need to know you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, fair enough. He doesn't even necessarily maybe it may

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<v Speaker 1>not even be that what he's saying reflects what he

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<v Speaker 1>believes personally. He's more interested in the personal gain from

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<v Speaker 1>saying that he believes it. Do you think that is

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of accurate to what you mean?

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<v Speaker 2>I believe that. Yeah, sure, they don't believe saying, well,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't believe what they're saying. These are grifters. They

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<v Speaker 2>use religion as a as a cash cow. They're not.

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<v Speaker 2>They have nothing to do with believing anything other than

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<v Speaker 2>I'm getting rich off of this. And you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>I have to do is not break character, and they will.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they will pay me their money and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of it, just for saying that I'm speaking to God.

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<v Speaker 2>So pay me. You know. They're liberal paying him to

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<v Speaker 2>be him, which is like to act, to be an

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<v Speaker 2>actor and fool them into thinking that he's actually a

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<v Speaker 2>religious or other blessed person, which is kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>okay for us, it's kind of like it's obvious that

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<v Speaker 2>this is just a ploy. It's just another another just

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<v Speaker 2>on that.

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<v Speaker 3>Jonathan the name Kreflo Dollar. You may or may not

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<v Speaker 3>have heard of him. He is a African American pastor

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<v Speaker 3>of a megachurch and he he once said in a

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<v Speaker 3>sermon that I know he said this jokingly, but I

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<v Speaker 3>think it does reveal something that you know, he said

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<v Speaker 3>in a sermon that he wishes there were like barriers

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<v Speaker 3>out the front of the church that as you walked in,

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<v Speaker 3>it checked how much money you donated, and if you

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<v Speaker 3>hadn't donated like these these big machines would come come

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<v Speaker 3>up and take you away. I thought, that's that may

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<v Speaker 3>not be exactly what he said. You say something along

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<v Speaker 3>those lines that indicated that you know, if you hadn't given,

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<v Speaker 3>if you hadn't given enough, then you will be dealt

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<v Speaker 3>with in some harsh method. All that so that's interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>But then it turned out that police had been called

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<v Speaker 3>to his home because of domestic violence allegations against his children.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought, well, yeah, it's just you know, like you

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<v Speaker 3>have this you play this character on stage, but then

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<v Speaker 3>you know, if you're harming your children back home, then

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<v Speaker 3>you know where your shiny suit as much as you want.

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<v Speaker 3>But you know, if you're abusing your children, right, then

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<v Speaker 3>it's what's it worth, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And with the attempt to make it seem like

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<v Speaker 1>by by being by having access to the church, I

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<v Speaker 1>am more virtuous. I have, you know, the money to

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<v Speaker 1>donate to the church, I'm more virtuous. I'm you know,

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<v Speaker 1>superior morally or ethically or whatever it maybe. And then

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<v Speaker 1>with with you know, a dark a secret or a

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<v Speaker 1>skeletons in the closet, so to speak.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, some children is seen everywhere in the churches, all

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<v Speaker 2>of them, you know. So they do that because it's

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<v Speaker 2>a trusted positions and they have power over the kids

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<v Speaker 2>and their parents, so they can keep themselves out of

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<v Speaker 2>trouble by doing nasty things to children.

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<v Speaker 3>I raise one, if I can raise one line that

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<v Speaker 3>he said in the video as well, and this is

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<v Speaker 3>where where he says the next day he hadn't sent

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<v Speaker 3>anything the past, continued, adding he initially thought the man

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<v Speaker 3>had a little lying spirit and forgot what he told me.

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<v Speaker 3>And to me, that brought back some bad memories because

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<v Speaker 3>I spent years in a church that believed in the

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<v Speaker 3>demons that would influence what you do or what you

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<v Speaker 3>forgot or you know what you didn't do, and all

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<v Speaker 3>this all this kind of stuff, and like, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>if you were an attractive young woman, you know, you

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<v Speaker 3>were essentially accused of having a spirit of Jezebel trying

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<v Speaker 3>to lead men astray and things like that. And so

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<v Speaker 3>it's just interesting that, you know, I said, like you

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<v Speaker 3>might be doing this as part of the grift, Like sure,

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<v Speaker 3>we can recontribute to that, or even if he genuinely

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<v Speaker 3>believes it, the fact that there are grown adults that

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<v Speaker 3>believe that spiritual entities, you know, cause people to lie

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<v Speaker 3>to passes about spending money, that's like.

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<v Speaker 1>Really, and it also implies like that that would be

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<v Speaker 1>considered chaos from the perspective of like a demon, which

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<v Speaker 1>is allegedly eternal and like immortal, like that just like

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<v Speaker 1>telling a lie to a pastor is chaotic enough to

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<v Speaker 1>qualify as demonic.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well there you go.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's that's John that Yeah, it sounded like you

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<v Speaker 1>you had more you want to add a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of go go ahead, what do you think?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if I can remember what I was thinking at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, I was just thinking that, you know, one

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<v Speaker 2>other thing about some of these pastors I'm quite sure

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<v Speaker 2>actually believe somewhere and what they're doing. In other words,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there are pastors out there who are sincere.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying all pastors are like this guy, but

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<v Speaker 2>this guy's words alone condemned to that. You know, there

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<v Speaker 2>are a lot of pastors out there, I'm sure who

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<v Speaker 2>really think they're not causing any harm even though they are.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like, you know, how how do you how

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<v Speaker 2>do you get people to understand that your religion is

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<v Speaker 2>not supposed to be used as a weapon against other people.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's that's where I get a little bit off

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<v Speaker 2>kilter with this stuff, is because uh, you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>they've weaponized their religion to the point where, first off,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a huge grift they're not supposed to They're supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to have taken vows of poverty, you know, back in

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<v Speaker 2>the day, you know where there were you know, even

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<v Speaker 2>the monks, you know though they used to they ended

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<v Speaker 2>up making tons of money on their beer and their

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<v Speaker 2>wine that they grew and made. But they you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they were supposed to be in vows of poverty, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>which means that they made a lot of money, but

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<v Speaker 2>it all went to the bishop and all the brothers

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<v Speaker 2>are sitting down there working in the fields. So it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't get this. This has been one big grift

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<v Speaker 2>for about seventeen hundred years. You would think that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>after the first part. You know, Christianity became popular because

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<v Speaker 2>it was the community. The Christian communities were like, had

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<v Speaker 2>all the social niceties, all the nice social safety nets.

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<v Speaker 2>If somebody got beaten almost to death, they would heal him,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they would give him medical care. They if

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<v Speaker 2>he lost his job, they would find him another one.

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<v Speaker 2>Or the social connections were strong, and Christians took care

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<v Speaker 2>of Christians and they didn't need the government to be

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<v Speaker 2>involved in that. But of course, when you're in a

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<v Speaker 2>very violent era of humanity, one of the things that

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<v Speaker 2>happens is that all the people aren't Christians, don't have

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<v Speaker 2>this backup, right, So how do you get this backup?

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<v Speaker 2>You become a Christian. And so the movement grew because

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<v Speaker 2>the Mitherians weren't doing that, and the other religious people

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<v Speaker 2>weren't doing that. But the Christians were communal, and they

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<v Speaker 2>say they had a little bit of a leg up

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<v Speaker 2>on that. But once you've got institutionalized, it went the hell,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and that's just you know, they got rid

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<v Speaker 2>of the Gnostics and the aurex and that sort of thing,

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<v Speaker 2>the heresies.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is why I asked Jonathan, how far has

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<v Speaker 3>Christianity come from its roots to the point that it's

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<v Speaker 3>now a business?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, somewhere around somewhere around the first third Crusades

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<v Speaker 2>it became a business.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, you could possibly argue even earlier than that. But

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<v Speaker 3>as I said, this is why I point out in

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<v Speaker 3>the Pauline epistles, Paul boss about about his poverty, and

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<v Speaker 3>I have no doubt that even throughout even since, even

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<v Speaker 3>during the first First Crusades, you know, there were people

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<v Speaker 3>who genuinely believed in it as a social movement to

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<v Speaker 3>be doing good, regardless of the financial reward. But it's

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<v Speaker 3>just that with any enterprise, politics, religion, charity, like you

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<v Speaker 3>name it, there'll be people who are in it for

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<v Speaker 3>the money.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Knights Templar are the ones who made mountains

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<v Speaker 2>of money in the Holy Land because they would escort

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<v Speaker 2>these Christian caravans into Jerusalem, so that they there were

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<v Speaker 2>so many bandits and things along the way, but they

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't mess with a bunch of fully armored knights on

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<v Speaker 2>It was a little different when you just had a

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<v Speaker 2>knife and you were going to go, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>cost of pilgrim. But when those pilgrims are, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>surrounded by knights, not a good idea. But they made

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<v Speaker 2>their their fortunes that way and went back to Europe

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<v Speaker 2>and bought huge tracts of land, and and the Church

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<v Speaker 2>got jealous of them, and then the King of France

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<v Speaker 2>owed them so much money that he decided he was

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<v Speaker 2>They both decided, well, we can get rid of the

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<v Speaker 2>whole order. You know, we'll just call them heretics, and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll make up all bunch of shit about them and

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<v Speaker 2>burn them at the stake, you know, and then we'll

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<v Speaker 2>just take all our money in their lands, which is

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much what happened, except for the ones who escaped

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<v Speaker 2>to Portugal. Well story, that was awesome, cool, But this

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the history show.

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<v Speaker 1>The this is. This is.

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<v Speaker 3>The history of religion. Is quite interesting just seeing how

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<v Speaker 3>Christianity has morphed over the years. And look, I just wonder,

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<v Speaker 3>in like one hundred and five hundred thousand years time,

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<v Speaker 3>what will Christianity be and what will how will Christians

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<v Speaker 3>then look back on the business, business fication what we

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<v Speaker 3>would all, yeah, of American.

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<v Speaker 2>Christian But that's and you really mentioned that.

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<v Speaker 1>You had mentioned that at the beginning, Damien, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was one of the things that kind of stuck my

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<v Speaker 1>miny a little about how Christianity, especially in America is

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<v Speaker 1>a business, or in the US, I should say, is

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<v Speaker 1>a business. But I think I think that's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>true of almost anything in the US anymore. I think,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, even the US itself is kind of just

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<v Speaker 1>leaning towards running more like a business. But where there

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<v Speaker 1>are people who want to think, there are you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people who are are willing to sallet. And uh, with

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<v Speaker 1>that being said, we have a merch store at tiny

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<v Speaker 1>dot c c slash merch a c A, so don't

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<v Speaker 1>forget to check that out and click