WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.960 Do you know what real power is? It's knowing you're 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.719 on the same rate for energy all day, every day 3 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:08.640 with a smart all day plan from board Gosh Energy, 4 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:11.000 save up to eight hundred and eighty euro on dual 5 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.519 fuel plus get a two hundred and thirty five You're 6 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.480 a welcome bonus switch today at Boardgosh Energy dot ie 7 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:18.640 Board Gosh Energy. 8 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:22.239 Know your Power estimated Anuel Biller twenty six hundred and 9 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:24.600 twenty nine. Your new customers only thurch of centis Kentov 10 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:26.960 Smart all day electricity unierates in twenty nine percent of 11 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:30.719 gas uns. See pcosh Energy dot E for fulltiesncies Oh. 12 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:34.079 Hy is that old guy sitting on a shabby sheet 13 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:37.600 couch in Anthropology waiting for his daughter to try on 14 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.159 pants that cost too much? Ali ward back for another 15 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:47.159 episode of Ologies. A spooky episode of Ologies, A scary episode? Okay, fine, 16 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.640 but does it get gotha than the inky blue sheen 17 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:53.960 of a crow in the Shadows who also happens to 18 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:57.159 be having a funeral for another crow. Nothing is more 19 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.759 goth than that, nothing, not even a spider listening to 20 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.920 Bauhaus on vinyl, A bat smoking a clove at a 21 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:08.599 warehouse party is not as goth as a crow funeral. 22 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:12.000 And I've been sitting on this episode since July. I've 23 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:14.519 been waiting to air it this week. I've been just 24 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:18.480 building with nausea. I'm so excited to talk about Corvid 25 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:22.920 thanatology Frickin' crow funerals. But first I will talk quickly 26 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.079 as I tell you things that also matter. Okay, thank 27 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:28.680 you to patrons at patreon dot com, slash Ologies, Thanks 28 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:32.040 to everyone for buying cool stuff at ologiesmerch dot com, 29 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:36.680 and thanks for subscribing to and rating the podcast, especially 30 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.599 for reviewing it, which helps get it seen by other people. 31 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.760 And each week, to prove that your reviews mean so much, 32 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.480 I read you a fresh one. And this week I 33 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:51.040 creeped on serious Beatles who wrote, I have been experiencing 34 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:53.799 an odd twilight Zone effect where shortly after listening to 35 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:55.799 one of your shows, a moment in my life was 36 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:58.280 so much richer from a thing I learned there. For 37 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.359 just one example, snails. I met a tiny pack of 38 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:05.040 wet sidewalk snails. As I crouched intensely over their little 39 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:09.439 googly eyes, I was overcome by an appreciation of their 40 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:14.319 love darts. Tiny hermaphroditic bodies, beauty products from their m 41 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:19.319 word and French immigrant past so much I cried serious 42 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.680 beetle that rules. Thank you for letting me creep your review. Okay, 43 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:27.080 Corvid thanatology? What the fuck word crow funerals. Yes, you're 44 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:29.960 about to listen to an hour long interview about the 45 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.560 grieving behaviors of crows from one of my favorite alive 46 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:39.319 scientists on the planet. It's so good, She's so good. Okay. 47 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:42.719 So Corvid's quick background belonged to a group of perching 48 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:47.199 birds with a developed vocal organ. That's what makes a corbet. 49 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:52.479 Sometimes these birds are called songbirds, but apparently ornithologists have 50 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:56.159 gotten into like almost fistfights about the term songbirds. So 51 00:02:56.240 --> 00:03:05.159 which birds are corbets? Okay? They include crows, ravens, rooks, jackdaws, jays, magpies, treepees, chuffs, 52 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:07.759 and nutcrackers, which kind of sounds like an alice in 53 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:11.879 Wonderland chest set or a roll call of gnomes, perhaps 54 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:14.960 a menu of local draft beers from Portland. But it's 55 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.639 a realist. I just read verbatim just to make sure 56 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.680 that I don't get any wrong and cause any more 57 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:25.919 ornithological fisticuffs. Anyway, we're talking about crows and how they die. 58 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.919 So you're going to hear about why crows have this 59 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:35.000 death laden reputation and some unsettling science mask facts. And 60 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:39.759 we'll hear about desperate alarm calls and feeling like an outsider, 61 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:44.319 and how brains work, and radioactive tracers and murderers but 62 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:47.960 not the sad kind and plague doctors and all kinds 63 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.360 of dark goodness that will have you sitting on a 64 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:54.319 park bench staring into the treetops with this new found 65 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:59.319 fascination once you hear the bonkers tales of biologists and 66 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.000 corvid banatologist. 67 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:22.480 Kayleie Swift, I'm so excited to talk to you. 68 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.519 So here's this. There's your microphone. Here, here's mine. First 69 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:28.759 thing that I always do is just ask people to 70 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:31.560 pronounce their first last name, just to make sure that 71 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:32.480 I say it right. 72 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.399 Sure, Kaylee Swift, Okay, just checking. 73 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.759 I believe he was pronounced though. I think it's doctor Kate. 74 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:47.199 This is where I just lose my shit about it. 75 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:48.920 I mean, how long have you been a doctor? 76 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:52.560 Like like forty eight hours? Oh my god, no, maybe 77 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.720 seventy two that since Friday night at nine thirty. 78 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:58.040 My god, tell me everything. 79 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:05.800 It has been in a whirlwind sprint. I did two 80 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:07.399 degrees and six years. 81 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:11.199 Oh my god. So it was really fast. So doctor 82 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:14.519 Kaylee Swift got her master's in science in Animal behavior 83 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:18.600 and neuroethology. I think that's how the brain affects what 84 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:20.879 animals do. I think that's what that means at the 85 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.759 University of Washington in twenty fifteen, and then she launched 86 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.360 straight into getting her PhD. She completed her research about 87 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.720 crow death behaviors, and just over three years she defended 88 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.519 her PhD on the last night possible before the end 89 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:40.120 of the quarter. Like her dissertation was due by midnight 90 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:44.000 that day. And this breakneck pace was partly because there 91 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.879 was a postdoctorate position in Denali that started right after. 92 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:49.839 She wanted to be able to hop over and do 93 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.399 that work. Also, the first time she mentioned she was 94 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:55.720 moving to Denali for a while, I asked if she 95 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:57.879 had to get a lot of travel vaccines, and then 96 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.000 I realized that Denali is a park in a life 97 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.240 and not a small island in the malaria belt. Anyway, 98 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:08.040 she's very smart and hard working, and she busted proverbial 99 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.959 ass for that PhD. You're not usually under the gun 100 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.079 like that, Like, how'd you deal with it? 101 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:18.439 I cried a lot. I yeah, I had a few 102 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.160 moments where I was just like, oh, this is it possible? 103 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:24.759 So I did that. I reached out to my peers 104 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:27.399 and said, I need you to text me and tell 105 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:28.959 me I'm going to do this and everything's going to 106 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:31.079 be okay. And they did it because they were wonderful 107 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:33.519 and I worked really hard. So it was kind of 108 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:35.000 a combination of those three things. 109 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.480 Okay, So now tell me what it was about crows 110 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:41.600 that made you so interested and when did you start 111 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:44.240 really studying them. Did you always like sit in parks 112 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:46.319 and like high school and stuff and just like gaze 113 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:47.800 at crows or was there a moment. 114 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:52.680 No, there was definitely a moment. So I, since I 115 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:57.800 was a little kid, loved animals and always really gravitated 116 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:01.759 towards science. I could stare at bugs all day. I know, 117 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.000 I just thought they were so cool. I'm with you, Yeah, 118 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.040 And I could look at pictures of bugs and books 119 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:10.199 and read about them. But I wasn't, you know, I 120 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.199 wasn't like journaling as a little kid, er taking fastidious notes. 121 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.319 But then as I got older, you know, in high 122 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.199 school it was sort of like and but as I 123 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.079 went into college, I had circled back around to wanting 124 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.480 to do wildlife sciences or animal behavior more broadly, and 125 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.319 I didn't really have a preference or an idea of 126 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:32.399 what exactly that would look like, and I had in 127 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:36.360 thinking about what kinds of questions really interested me. The 128 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:38.639 answer I kept coming back to was this idea of 129 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:43.279 the social intelligence hypothesis, which is this idea that being 130 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.519 social and having these complex social lives may have really 131 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.199 driven our cognitive advances because it's difficult to do that. 132 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:52.920 It takes a lot of brain power, and that question 133 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.920 and you know, there's lots of nuanced ways that you 134 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.040 can look at that that has always really captivated me. 135 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:01.839 And so mind of the raven and being like I 136 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.759 like birds, I like animal behavior and cognition, and oh 137 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:07.920 look at this. There's this whole lot of those birds 138 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:12.480 that now you know, science is collectively saying like, oh wow, 139 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.120 I guess we were super wrong about the capabilities of birds, 140 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.600 Like look at what grows and ravens can do. 141 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:20.879 Do they have to issue an apology to birds at 142 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.519 some point, like, fuck, man, we're sorry, you're you got 143 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.439 great brains. You're doing games over here. Like, was there 144 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.279 a moment in time culturally where we were like, we're 145 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:32.200 so sorry birds. 146 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.480 I don't know if that has happened, but if it hasn't, 147 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:36.480 it really should. 148 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:36.960 Okay. 149 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:40.039 Yeah, And you know, one of the things I've experienced 150 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:42.320 through my research is still a lot of people don't 151 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.919 really realize that. And that's been one of the most 152 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.320 rewarding things about doing my work is seeing people go, wow, 153 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.240 I had no idea that they did this. That's so cool. 154 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:55.879 I like crows more now. So that's been, like I said, 155 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.320 just one of the most rewarding parts of the research 156 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.720 that I've done. Uh so. Yeah. So the marriage of 157 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.679 all of those things birds and intelligence and animal behavior 158 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.320 is what led me to crows, and then, really serendipitously, 159 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:14.039 my undergraduate advisor at the time I was going through 160 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:17.679 this revelation happened to be working on the Facial Recognition 161 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:22.000 publication with one John Marslof, who's like. 162 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:25.039 The dude when it comes to wearing creepy masks around crows. 163 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.600 Yes. Yeah, it's like, you know, a handful of crow 164 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.159 experts in the United States, and he is one of them. 165 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.120 And so it was like, oh, this's worked out nicely, right. 166 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:36.679 I mean, I feel like in your research, were you 167 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:40.039 to google you, were someone to google you. I feel 168 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:44.080 like photos of you wearing a ghastly mask with like 169 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.720 a Halloween mask that someone had left in their trunk 170 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:52.440 for several years, but there's you holding a dead crow 171 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:57.519 with the mask on. I have so many questions, so 172 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:01.000 really quick. Doctor John Marslif, professor of wildlife science at 173 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.679 the University of Washington, was Kayley's PhD advisor, and he's 174 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:08.120 been studying crows for years. You may be familiar with 175 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:12.600 his research in wearing certain masks around crows, which showed 176 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:16.600 that hell yes, they very much identify human faces, and 177 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.440 they will squawk up a storm. This is technically called 178 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.200 scolding when they see a foe, kind of like we 179 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.320 see in human beings at a professional wrestling match or 180 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.360 an episode of The Real Housewives, which, let's face it, 181 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.519 those two scenarios are just two sides of the same coin. So, 182 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:38.360 for example, if a researcher trapped a crow for observation 183 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.840 wearing a certain mask, most of the local crows in 184 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.639 the future will freak out. If someone casually walks by 185 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.519 them in the same mask. Human beings might also freak 186 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:53.279 out that they didn't study but they started using this 187 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:58.000 ghastly cro magnum mask and a Dick Cheney Halloween one, 188 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:02.000 but ended up in the end employing some specially made 189 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.759 masks later in the study, which I'll be honest are 190 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.919 kind of creepier because they're like someone's face but just 191 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.000 a little bit off. So imagine like Michael Myers with 192 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:18.360 shoulder length hair, standing in a park and writing down 193 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:21.759 everything you did on a clipboard. But before we get 194 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:25.759 to all of that work specifically, let's throw this thing 195 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.039 in reverse for a second. Okay, I'm gonna start basics. 196 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:31.559 I'm going to go back a little bit. Difference between 197 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:34.000 a crow and a raven and why do you study. 198 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.240 Crows and not ravens. I'm sorry, I don't know this. 199 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.759 I think ravens are bigger. No, don't apologize at all. 200 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.440 It's a really common question. Why would you know this 201 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:45.240 unless you'd ask somebody earlier. So crows and ravens are 202 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.639 different species, but they're in the same genus, so like 203 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:53.559 a lion and a tiger. Okay, but they're really superficially. 204 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:55.399 Similar looking, So it's easy to mix them up, so 205 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:59.639 that the main things to look for is ravens are 206 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.600 about two and a half times the size of a crow. Okay, 207 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:04.799 so I always tell people if you're like out and 208 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:06.519 you see a crow and you go, that is the 209 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:10.559 biggest bleebity bleep crow I've ever seen. It's it's probably 210 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:14.480 because it's a raven in flight. The easiest way to 211 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:17.200 tell them apart is crows have more sort of squared 212 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:20.919 tails versus ravens have this really distinct wedd shaped tail. 213 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.879 Oh and then if you are close enough to see 214 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.039 one or see a picture of one, you'll notice that 215 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.679 the throat feathers on a raven are really textured like 216 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:33.679 a beard, versus crows have really smooth hair like throat feathers. 217 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:36.679 And on a raven, we call those special feathers hackles, 218 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.200 and they articulate them and use them in a lot 219 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.720 of visual behavioral displays. But that once you get a 220 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.919 look at a few photos, that feature becomes really easy 221 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.679 to detect. So those are sort of the three big 222 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.919 physical ones. Their voices are really different. 223 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:53.240 How are their voices different? 224 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:58.919 So crows do the classic you know, caw and ravens 225 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:05.879 have this much deeper, more hollow croake sound. Yeah, it's 226 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:10.159 a very and ravens. Both both species make a huge 227 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:14.000 diversity of really cool noises. But personally, I think the 228 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.679 vocal repertoires of ravens are are cooler than they are 229 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:18.200 for crows. Don't tell the crows. 230 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.720 I said that crows are like, she just defended got 231 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.440 her PhD and now she's throwing. 232 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:24.559 Us under the bus. 233 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:30.440 Twait, what about can ravens make voices? 234 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:36.120 Crows, Ravens and magpies are excellent, excellent mimics. Yes, they're 235 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:42.480 essentially parrots. Crazy not maybe not quite the in terms 236 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:49.039 of the volume of their vocabulary, but their accuracy to 237 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.279 the human voice outstanding. 238 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:56.600 Crazy. Yeah, who is creepier or more goth Closer Ravens? 239 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.080 I would say ravensky because they have more of a 240 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:09.759 habit of plucking eyes out of living things. Crows will 241 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.519 do that too, but I think Braven's have more of 242 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:12.200 that reputation. 243 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:13.360 It's pretty hardcore. 244 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.159 Yeah, well, you know that's skin is thick. Mammalian skin 245 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.360 is thick. So if you're hungry, I mean you're gonna 246 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:22.320 you're gonna go for. 247 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.240 The easy part, get the good stuff. 248 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:25.320 Yeah, that's very. 249 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:30.080 Marilyn Manson man, that is HALLOWEENI is all get out. 250 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.320 So when Kayley got to graduate school, she started looking 251 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:38.639 into projects that involved these complex, fascinating big bird brains. 252 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:42.200 John had already started to do some studies with the 253 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:45.480 functional imaging work that we do where we look at crowbrains, 254 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.559 and he had already been inspired doing that, like, oh, 255 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.120 it would be really cool if we would show them 256 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.000 a dead crow, because humans for a long time have 257 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:55.679 known that crows respond really strongly to their dead This 258 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.960 is that idea is not something that I contributed to humankind, 259 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.279 and so he thought that that would be cool. But 260 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.080 in order to do that, you really need to have 261 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:10.039 this field component so that you can, you know, say 262 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:13.720 like this is what they do in their normal environment, 263 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:18.000 this is the external manifestation of their behavior, and then 264 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.159 we can look inside their brain and then try and 265 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.240 tell the whole story. 266 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.440 So their research involves observing the urbs in their natural 267 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:31.840 home externally from Afar, and then after that they're like, hey, heyburbs, 268 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.919 come take a quick science vacation with us just a 269 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:39.759 few weeks. We'll look at your brain function before releasing 270 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:42.679 you again into the wild. To tell some pretty great 271 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.559 alien abduction stories at your next crow party. 272 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.519 And so we talked about that a lot. And the 273 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.879 advantages of that project were one that it's awesome. Two, 274 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:56.519 it was feasible financially because you know, I didn't need 275 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:01.440 expensive tracking devices or tags or anything like that, So 276 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:04.399 it was it was low cost, which was important because 277 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.159 I had zero funding. I had gotten an amazing fellowship 278 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:11.480 from NSF to support me personally through three years of 279 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.399 graduate school, but it didn't include any research funds, and 280 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:15.919 he didn't have any research funds for me. 281 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:17.600 Those masks are free, man. 282 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.639 Well, so fortunately the masks had already been bought and 283 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.759 secured before the previous facial recognition study. Yeah, so I'm 284 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.200 just trying to make it work with like, what resources 285 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:28.840 are already here? 286 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.840 Where do those masks come from? I'm so sorry, such 287 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:32.480 a dumb question. 288 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.919 No, not a dumb question, because nobody knows the answers. 289 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:39.159 They had Costume makers come and take molds of actual 290 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:43.000 people's faces. So I always tell people to be gentle 291 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.759 when they talk about the masks because Linda and Vivian 292 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:53.120 and Joe are all actually real people whoa yeah, which 293 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.279 are not a scary in real life. I assure you. 294 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.240 I'm sure a thousand percent. Okay, but that's good to know. 295 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.120 And so you were like, don't have a lot of funding. 296 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:04.759 I have zero fundings. And so this idea that instead 297 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:09.079 of tracking and tagging or killing and dissecting the animals, 298 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:13.200 You're like, we can look at their brain activity using 299 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:14.640 functional MRIs. 300 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:20.920 So not MRIs. We use a process called FDG PET okay. 301 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.839 And the reason that we don't use an MRI is 302 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.160 that you could not train a crow to go into 303 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:34.039 an MRI and not have, you know, a meltdown. So 304 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.160 they would just say, would all their brain activity would 305 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:37.079 be panic? 306 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:38.720 Yeah, that's a good point. 307 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.200 So basically what we do is we capture crows in 308 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.359 the wild and we have an aviary that's fit to 309 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.480 house crows. The housing is acceptable for a couple months, 310 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.440 and we give them a few weeks to get acclimated 311 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.400 to captivity and just kind of calm down a little bit. 312 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:58.359 And then the night before we're ready to image a subject, 313 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.000 we take it into the radiology room and it goes 314 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.240 in a smaller cage and we give it overnight to 315 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.359 acclimate to that, and then the morning that we're ready 316 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.160 to image, we take the bird out and we inject 317 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.440 it with something called FDG, which is a modified glucose 318 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.000 molecule with a radioactive tracer attached to it. 319 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.359 Oh my gosh, So this this is a pet scan 320 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.039 like a cancer patient. 321 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:22.759 It is exactly the same process. 322 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:24.519 My dad had to get a pet scan, so and 323 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:26.519 we had to tell him not to eat carbs for 324 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.119 like days before and he was like, this is bullshit. 325 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:31.279 Yeah, And that's one of the reasons they have to 326 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.319 go in overnight is so that then they don't get 327 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.839 any food. Basically, the idea of this process is, so 328 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.720 we give them this glucose injection. Your brain uses glucose, 329 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.400 you know, as it works. Whatever part of your brain 330 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.079 is working the hardest is going to use the most glucose. 331 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.839 So once we give them this injection, we can show 332 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.359 them something like a dead crow or an empty room, 333 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:54.960 or the face of a familiar threatening person or a 334 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:58.319 familiar caring person, and whatever they're part of their brain 335 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:00.759 is working, work and work into process. That information is 336 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.559 going to concentrate that glucose. And the reason I described 337 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:08.000 it as a modified glucose molecule is that it's been 338 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:11.799 changed such that the body can't metabolize it anymore, so 339 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.400 it's just going to stick there. And then what happens 340 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.279 is after that period where we've shown them the stimulus, 341 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.440 which we only have about fifteen minutes or so to 342 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.720 do that, we can anesetize the bird and put it 343 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.160 in the scanner, and the scanner, you know, zoom, jump jumps, 344 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.200 goes around and it detects where that tracer landed, and 345 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:34.599 we have about a forty five minute window before it 346 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.480 starts to degrade. And then once the scanner's done, we 347 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.519 can take the bird out, you know, keep it while 348 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.119 it wakes up, and then it's free to go. 349 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.000 Okay, bye. Are you showing them pictures of birds that 350 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.720 they know so that it's familiar and they're like, that's 351 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:53.319 my uncle. 352 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.400 No, So that was one major caveat. With all of 353 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:59.960 the research that I did. We always control to make 354 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.279 sure that they were unfamiliar birds. And with the pet images, 355 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.400 we weren't showing them photographs. We were showing them actual 356 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.440 taxidermaid crows, right yeh. And it was just like on 357 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:11.759 a stool in front of the bird. 358 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.039 Oh my gosh. So it would be like, okay, you're 359 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.319 going to go to a hotel overnight. In the morning, 360 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:19.039 we're going to take you to the doctor's office. We're 361 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.160 going to give you some super weird soft drink. It 362 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.839 has radio tracers in it, and then we're going to 363 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:26.920 take you in a room with a mommified human being, 364 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:28.960 and then we're going to see what part of your 365 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.920 brain lit up. Yeah, and so what parts of their 366 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.440 brains would light up when it was another dead crow 367 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:37.119 or just like a pencil. 368 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.279 So I can't talk about that yet. Oh, I'm going 369 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.079 to keep that close to the vest until I get 370 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.279 it approved by my scientific peers to make sure everything 371 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:48.240 is up to snuff. 372 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.079 So she's not allowed to say for certain, but she 373 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.359 did give me a clue that it's one of the 374 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.680 three areas, perhaps the amygdala, which is an area associated 375 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:01.640 with fear acquisition, or something called the NCL which is 376 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:06.240 essentially the Avian analog to our prefrontal cortex and it 377 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:11.799 deals with higher cognitive tasks. Might also, however, be the hippocampus, 378 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.920 which is the little brain nugget responsible for learning and memory. 379 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.720 She can't say. Yeah, the paper is going to be 380 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.599 published sometime next year. I'm earnestly awaiting this like its 381 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.680 oscar nominees. Okay, so if you're not looking at radioactive 382 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.319 tracers in a bird headscan, what are some things you 383 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.559 can see with your own human eyes? Can you give 384 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.920 me an overview of some crow morning behaviors for those 385 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:39.279 who have not seen it or haven't read your research, 386 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:43.319 Like what happens when crows ceochrow die, or fly by 387 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.359 and be like, oh shit, there's a dead one? Like 388 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:46.200 what do they do? 389 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:53.119 So the most common response is that the bird that 390 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.359 discovers the body will alarm call, and that results in 391 00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:58.839 recruitment of other birds to the area to form what 392 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.119 we call a mob. So, if you've ever seen crows 393 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:03.799 go after an eagle or red to hawk or your cat, 394 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.960 that's what mopping looks like. Whoa, And that's kind of 395 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:12.799 that's the most common response. But that said, there's a 396 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.240 lot of anecdotes of them doing other things. And John 397 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:18.680 and I get emails all the time from people who 398 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.720 We had one woman send us pictures of a crow 399 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.359 she saw. It was carrying I think like a candy 400 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.559 wrapper or some kind of food packaging, and it flew 401 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:29.559