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Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join

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us as we dive into the deep end of the

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unexplainable world and try to piece together what happened. If

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you are listening to Locations Unknown.

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Speaker 2: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of

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Locations Unknown. I'm your co host with me as always

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as a guy who can take an actual big bite

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of an archburger. Mike vander Bogart.

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Speaker 3: Wow, so I saw that Vie, the CEO of McDonald's,

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just like, is so bad, Like, oh yuck, this is gross.

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I don't want to eat. It's like, oh wait, I'm

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running this company.

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Speaker 2: How bad do you have to be at like a

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marketing campaign? Yeah, that you can't take one bite out of,

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like the even if you thought it was the most

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horrendous thing in the whole world. Yeah, you're like, I

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make millions of dollars a year.

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Speaker 3: Like, I'll just go to the best doctors after I

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eat this burger. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like if it's that bad, everything he did seem like

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he was gonna regret this for the rest of his life. Yeah,

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Like his body's like I don't even know how to

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attack this. I was like, what do you mean that's

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a bad look. Yeah, they like he should actually be

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fired as a result of that. I don't know that's

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or whoever green lighted, Like I wonder if he watched

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it and was like, Yep, this one's the best.

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Speaker 3: Just don't make me fit into this thing. Maybe he

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did like ten takes and ate like fifty of them,

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and you know what, if they're going to do anything

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to say face, that's what they should come out and

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be like it was the hundredth take. Yeah, he literally

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ate like a hundred of them. Yeah, and he was

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just like lie to us at this point. Well, thank

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you anyway. Yeah, thank you to all of our loyal

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listeners for tuning in just a few updates before we

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get going. A lot of Patreon supporters get to this

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time around, So thank you to Aurulia Davenport, Emily Stephenson,

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Carly Leans, Joshua Schreiber, Lisa Holcombe, Brittany Mandy Millard, Jeremy Evans,

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Christy vellsco Dakota Hayes, Rachel Cohen, and Susan Zappi.

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Speaker 2: So I like how Stevenson is on the three forle hell,

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I'm it's spent a long day. It's so thank you

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to all of you first for supporting the show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much. We can't thank you enough.

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It's why we have some of the better equipment we have,

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and so thank you. If you want to call the

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show called two eight three nine one six nine three,

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we just did a voicemail episode. There are some good ones.

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There are some good ones very much enjoyed, So sign

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up for Patreon, listen to them, and then try to

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top them and make our next episode. If you'd like

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to listen to some of the other shows on our network,

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We've got Off the Trails, who runs this Park, Crime,

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Off the Grid, Relish, hoping to get a few more

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on there that we've been kind of talking with, so

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stay tuned for that. If you want to support the show,

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you can obviously go to Patreon, YouTube memberships, premium subscriptions

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on Apple and Speaker. We have a store where there's

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stuff you can buy that always helps. If money's tight,

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just leave us alike, subscribe wherever you listen, if that's

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on YouTube or whatever podcast, and just tell all your friends,

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and tell all your friends untill they get annoyed with

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you and drop you as a friend. Yep, So any

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updates from you?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 2: All right, all right, everybody, let's gear up and get

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out to explore locations unknown. September sixth two thousand and nine,

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a sixty one year old fitness.

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Speaker 3: Instructor, black belt and.

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Speaker 2: Seasoned bowhunter leaves his campsite near Elk Mountain in New

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Mexico's Santa Fe National Forest. He tells his two companions

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he won't go far and we'll return by nightfall. When

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he doesn't return, the search begins. Helicopters, volunteers and K

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nine units scour the rugged terrain and find nothing. No body,

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no gear, no trace. Join us this week as we

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investigate the strange disappearance of Melvin Nadel. I have this

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weird add thing where when the description of the episode

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like finishes perfectly when the violin comes in, it makes

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me very happy. Oh that is weird. Yeah, it's very

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well produced. Yeah, and it doesn't happen all the time.

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Sometimes I'm really early, sometimes i'm produced. Yes, that's what

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I'm saying. So we are going to give our producer

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a raise, I know, yes, absolutely, from nothing per hour

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to nothing per hour.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we can.

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Speaker 2: Multiplies salary by a thousand yeah, one thousand percent.

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Speaker 3: Rays.

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Speaker 2: We are going to Santa Fe National Forest in the

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Elk Mountain area. This area sees about one million visitors

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per year. It was established in nineteen fifteen in the

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state of New Mexico and spans one point six million acres.

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So we'll do a little bit of the climate in

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the area the Elk Mountains where Melvin Dell dis here.

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It sits at the intersection of beauty and brutality. The

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campsite was located within the Santa Fe National Forest in

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the Sangre de Cristo Mountains of North New Mexico.

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Speaker 3: Pop quiz uh. Oh what recent case also was in

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that mountain range that we covered. I'll take the f.

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Speaker 2: Skelinsky Skelensky and Great Sand Dunes, Okay, in the mountain Airy.

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What this is only in the mountainous area right near there.

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Speaker 3: No, So the that mountain Chaine goes into Colorado a bit.

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And when I was researching this case, I remember that

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mountain range. I'm like, did we already cover this case?

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And then I was going through and it was Skelensky Okay,

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so it kind of almost covered it. Yeah, just not

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this exact one. Yes, So at an elevation likely between

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eight and ten thousand feet, with Elk Mountain summit reaching

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at eleven thousand and six and sixty one feet above

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sea level. The elevation is the single most important factor

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in understanding the climb Melvin walked into on September six,

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two thousand and nine. At those heights, the weather does

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not behave the way it does in the town of

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Picos below or in Santa Fe forty five minutes to

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the west. The mountains make their own rules. Early September

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in this part of New Mexico is a transitional season,

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like a shoulder season or what else would we call it?

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Straddle seasons.

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Speaker 2: You'll never let that one die, will Yeah, there's a

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couple of people I've saw in person that said they

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laugh so hard at straddle seasons and they're gonna start

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calling them straddle season chan now on, maybe it's a movement.

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Speaker 3: It's a It's definitely a movement. If anyone ever goes

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hiking and you're talking about something like that, make sure

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to you use straddle.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge movement among a very small group of people. Yes,

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the dail end of the summer warmth giving way to

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the first whispers of fall down in the town of

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Pecos at roughly seven thousand feet. Average daytime highs in

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early September hover around seventy seven to seventy eight degrees,

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so pretty nice. The overnight lows, however, dipped to the fifties.

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Oh just so are pronunciation. People are happy. It's pekos

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pekos like peso's like pay pay kohs okay. So well,

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Melvin wasn't in the town on Peso Pekos, so he

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was thousands of feet higher, where temperatures dropped roughly three

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to five degrees for every thousand feet of elevation gain.

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Speaker 3: That's called being good at what you do right there. Yep,

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that's the transition. That's amazing. That's straddleediction.

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Speaker 2: At nine to ten thousand feet, a comfortable afternoon in

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the low sixties can turn into a night in the

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mid thirties or even lower, cold enough to induce hypothermia

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in someone who isn't prepared, especially someone who is injured

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or immobile. Looking at actual recorded weather data for the

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Santa Fe area in September two thousand and nine, the

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first week of the month saw daytime highs and the

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low to mid eighties at Santa Fez elevation at about

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seven thousand feet, with overnight lows in the uppers forties

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to low fifties, so it got.

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Speaker 3: Pretty cold at night. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: On September sixth, specifically the day Melvin vanished, Nafe recorded

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a high of approximately eighty degrees in a low near

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fifty up at Elk Mountain, Those numbers would have been

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significantly cooler, likely in the mid sixties during the day

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and potentially dipping into the upper thirties or low forties

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after dark. By the time his friends Joe and Kevin

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were firing signal shots in the night sky, the mountain

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air would have been cold, especially for a man hunting

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in camouflage without his backpack or overnight gear. September is

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also the tail end of the North American monsoon season.

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Speaker 3: In New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: From roughly late June through mid September, moisture surges up

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from the Gulf of Mexico and the Gulf of California,

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producing afternoon and evening thunderstorms that can be intense, highly localized,

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and dangerously unpredictable. These storms build quickly. A clear blue

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sky at noon can turn into a violent thunderstorm by

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three o'clock, dropping heavy rain, hail and lightning on a

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narrow band of terrain, while the valley a mile away

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will stay boned dry. The average precipitation for Pecos area

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in September is just over two inches, but that moisture

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tends to arrive in sudden, concentrated bursts rather than a gentle,

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steady rain. Flash flooding in narrow canyons and arroyos is

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real and recurring hazard. The terrain apple flies every weather risk.

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The sangraded Cristos are steep, rocky, and heavily forested with

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pine fir, spruce, and aspen. At higher elevations, the forest

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canopy thickens and visibility drops. The ground is uneven, riddled

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with loose rock, down timber, gopher holes and root tangles.

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A man with a wrapped injured knee navigating this train

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in fading afternoon light was already operating with a narrow

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margin of safety. The mountains are all sentorious for sudden

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fog and cloud cover that can roll in and erase

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landmarks in minutes, leaving even experienced outdoorsmen disorientated.

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Speaker 3: That one's for you.

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Speaker 2: What makes the September timing particularly treacherous is how quickly

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the seasons can turn. The warm season in Peikos officially

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ends around September fifteenth, and the first hard freezes at

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higher elevation can arrive by mid to late September. In

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the Sangrad de Cristo's the southern Colorado, the same mountain

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range just slightly farther north, Wildlife management guides warned that

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the first snow or freeze can occur in early September

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at higher elevations. By the time the family was organizing

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their October volunteer search, six weeks after he vanished the

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Actually they are acutely aware that winter was approaching and

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the snow would soon blak in the mountains, potentially burying

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any remaining evidence. So we'll talk about a little bit

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about the terrain, which covered it a little bit. But

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to understand how a man can vanish without walking distance

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within his own camp, you first had to understand the

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land itself. Look how it looks around Elk Mountain rises

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eleven thousand, six hundred feet in the San Miguel County,

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within the Santa Fe National Forest parts of Sango A

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sun graded Crystal Mountains, the southernmost extension of the Rocky

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Mountains the United States. The Pecos Wilderness encompasses over two

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hundred and twenty three thousand acres of protected land, and we

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talked about the elevation going up to thirteen thousand feet,

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So the train shifts dramatically with altitude. Ponderosa Pine and

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Douglas first give ways to the dense subalpine spruce and

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aspen as you climb and above timberline, the world opens

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to exposed alpine meadows and bare rock ridges. Melvin's campsite

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was not high on the ridgeline. It sat in a

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large open clearing off Forest Road six forty six, which

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is a dirt road branching from State Highway sixty three

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past the small town of Terrero. During fall hunting season,

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ATVs and trucks are common along the road. Other campers

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and hunters are around. This is not the trackless backcountry

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that some accounts make it sound like. So there's activity

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in the area, yeah, especially if it's a hunting season.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. From what I gathered, this is pretty used area

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in summer and hunting season, so it's not desolate like

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some of the places we've covered.

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Speaker 2: You'll see activity, yeah, However, though the train immediately off

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the roads is something else entirely step ten feet into

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the trees in the forest closes around you. The ground

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is treacherous, loose rock, exposed roots, down timber, and animal

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burrows that catch a boot and twist a knee. The

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Sangrid de Crystals is carved with deep, narrow drainages, steep

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sided ravines cut by snow melt and monsoon runoff, sometimes

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fifty to one hundred feet deep, with near vertical walls.

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A person who stumbles into one, especially with a bad

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knee and fading light, may not climb out. A body

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at the bottom, covered by seasonal debris, could go undetected

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for years. Those drainages feed into creeks, which feed into

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the Pecos River, a dynamic waterway that could carry remains

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miles downstream. The forest density compounds the problem. At the

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elevation surrounding Melvin's campsite, the canopy is thick enough to

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severely limit aerial visibility, so someone wearing full camouflage lying

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still in a forest was nearly impossible to spot from

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a helicopter. The camouflage is meant to hide him from

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elk may also have hidden him from rescuers. The wildlife

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fills the rest, so Elk Mountain's force is home to elk,

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mule deer, black bear, mountain lion, bobcat, coyote, and golden eagles.

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Mountain lions are ambush predators that st reich from behind

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without warning, so one hundred and thirty five pound man

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crouched in hunting blind focused on a tree line ahead

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would be vulnerable though a predator attack. It still does

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not explain the total absence of physical evidence. I'm not

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going to get into the part that makes it confound

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because I'm gonna give away too much stuff.

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Speaker 3: So tell us about how maybe to hike safely.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So one of the things you want to do,

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obviously that we say every time, leave a detailed trip

250
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,840
plan or itinerary, so your exact routes, campsite locations, expected

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return times, vehicle descriptions, license plate things that people might

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need to find to see if you're in an area.

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You also want to know the terrain, know the mileage,

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elevation gain, where water is. If you're an experienced climber,

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you should have an idea of what type of elevation

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gain you can handle over what distance and time. You

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want to check the weather forecasts, prepare for altitude because

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altitude sickness is real, and prepared to come down if

259
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you're starting to feel the effects of it. You do

260
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,399
want to make camp before dark. Most backcountry accidents happen

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after nightfall. Learn the terrain around your camp in daylight

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so that you can navigate it safely. If you need

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to move after dark, you want to set specific check

264
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in times with your group. If someone doesn't show up

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at the agreed upon time, start looking immediately. Do not wait,

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and stay on established trails whenever possible. The terrain off

267
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trail is riddled with loose rock, hidden ravines, and thick

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brush that can disorient you within minutes. We talked a

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little bit about the wildlife. Just some things that you

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should be carrying if possible, GPS, a physical map and

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compass for the GPS fails and you want to know

272
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how to use it. Fully charged phone, emergency signaling device

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such as a whistle, mirror or PLB, overpacked food and water, headlamp,

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fire starting materials, extra layers of close first aid kits,

275
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and bare spray. If you do get lost, stop moving

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the moment you realize you're disoriented. Continuing to walk when

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loss is how people end up miles from our searchers

278
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,720
are looking. Unless you're in a hazardous spot, you want

279
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to get to a safe spot. Use the train and

280
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as a guide. In the Pecos area, streams and dranges

281
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flowed downhill to the Pecos River where it leads to civilization.

282
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If falls fills fall water downstream, signal for help using

283
00:16:09,559 --> 00:16:13,399
any of the any three of anything. So three whistleblasts,

284
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three shots fired, three gunshots three three is basically a

285
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,159
universal distrust signal. You can build three fires, and you

286
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can use a mirror to flash aircraft stay visible. So

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00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:26,960
if you've were wearing camouflage, you might want to take

288
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,279
that off if you or flip it inside out, or

289
00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:32,399
try and get brighter clothing on if you can. Other

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00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,960
than that, Mike, how about you tell us a little

291
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:34,720
bit about Melvin.

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00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the subject of tonight's case is Melvin at Nadel.

293
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,799
Date of birth was March thirteenth, nineteen forty eight. He

294
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,879
went missing September sixth of two thousand and nine. He

295
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,120
was a male, aged sixty one. He was five foot two,

296
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,919
about one hundred and thirty five pounds, though Some sources

297
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,720
list him at a one hundred and ten pounds. He

298
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,360
had black hair, brown eyes. Other features about him. He

299
00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:01,519
had two full arm sleeves tattoos. One of them had

300
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:07,880
a dragon, a pentagram, a taekwondozibil, a mouth with vampire fans,

301
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,799
and a guitar. So very interesting set of tattoos on

302
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,640
his arms. Clothing and geary He was last seen in

303
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,839
so he had a cameo print jacket, shirt and pants,

304
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,960
polypropylene underclothes, thermal socks, hiking boots, black watch. He did

305
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,200
have a injured knee, so he had a knee wrap

306
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,200
and a brace. He had a forty four special revolver

307
00:17:28,279 --> 00:17:31,160
on him. He had camo print. He had a cameoprint

308
00:17:31,519 --> 00:17:34,920
Martin compound bow with black and white zebra striped arrows,

309
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,759
and he had a hunting knife. Personalities personality wise, the

310
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:41,519
sky did sound pretty interesting. So he was described as

311
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,160
discipline focused, resilient. He was a black belt, and he

312
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,400
was a fitness trainer. He was described as a jack

313
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,559
of all trades. He was comfortable with computers, jewelry making,

314
00:17:51,599 --> 00:17:55,119
fitness instruction, and the outdoors. He had a quick wit,

315
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,039
had a quiet intensity about him. He was very loyal

316
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,000
and he was a dedicated hands on father. He homeschooled

317
00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:04,680
his daughter Kristen for most of her life and was

318
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,519
described at it as her best friend. He obviously with

319
00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:12,720
the guitar tattoo, loved rock and roll music, but he

320
00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:16,400
also was not one to wander and take on necessary risks,

321
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,640
so he preferred to sit still in a hunting blind

322
00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:22,799
rather than pursue game on foot, and he was described

323
00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,519
as cautious by nature after a previous experience of getting

324
00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:28,920
lost while hunting, so this would not be the first

325
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,119
time he actually got lost. Medical injuries or issues other

326
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,799
than so. He did injure his knee right before his disappearance,

327
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,400
and it was wrapped in a brace, and one source

328
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,880
says he twisted it stepping in a gopher hole while

329
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,359
target practicing, and another actually said he heard it while

330
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,119
he was a teaching a pilates class, so we'll never

331
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,480
know how he heard it, but he had a bad

332
00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:51,960
knee other than that, though his wife said he did

333
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,680
not suffer from any other known health issues, so generally speaking,

334
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,440
a very healthy sixty one year old male occupation hobby.

335
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,640
He owned and operated a pilates fitness plus a popular

336
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,839
gym in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area. He previously

337
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,279
also owned a jewelry store. He was a first degree

338
00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:17,039
black belt in taekwondo. He was also an avid bow

339
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,519
hunter and he preferred a passive, blind based hunting style

340
00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:23,079
where he basically just sat and waited for the game

341
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,200
to come to him. And he was also skilled with

342
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,480
computers and he was frequently the person that people called

343
00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,640
when they had a problem with their computer. And he

344
00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:36,440
was obviously a very popular fitness instructor in his hometown.

345
00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:40,960
And he was described as tough but supportive, So he

346
00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:43,920
really is a jack of all trades. Yeah, he owned

347
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,279
a jewelry store, he's a fitness instructor, he's a black

348
00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:51,359
belt in taekwondo, also an expert with computers, so sounds

349
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,519
like a pretty interesting guy. Experienced in the wilderness, so

350
00:19:54,839 --> 00:19:58,720
very experienced outdoorsman, and he's a seasoned bowhunter and he

351
00:19:58,759 --> 00:20:02,960
has done multiple hunting over the years. He also had

352
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,880
been lost once before he had to fire his gun

353
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,400
into the air to be found, and that experience made

354
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,599
him adapt to habits, always carrying a GPS unit and

355
00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:16,599
always stand close to camp. He also was comfortable in

356
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,200
the backcountry, but not reckless. His hunting style was deliberate

357
00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:23,799
and low risk, and he was, like I said, very

358
00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:26,480
physically fit for his age. He was trained in martial arts,

359
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,039
but he was not what you'd consider a long distance

360
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,799
backcountry hiker. So experience at this location. He had visited

361
00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:37,039
Elk Mountain before. The camp site was described as a

362
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:40,680
place Melvin had visited before on prior hunting trips. He

363
00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:43,200
was familiar enough with the area to know the trail

364
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,920
from camp and to point out exactly where he intended

365
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,960
to set up his blind. It was only a group

366
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,240
of trees about one hundred to one hundred and fifty

367
00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:55,880
yards downtrail, so really not that far from camp. I mean,

368
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,720
one hundred yards is a football field, so that's pretty

369
00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:03,880
darn close. Despite familiarity, his previous experience getting lost demonstrates

370
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,599
that even when you know the terrain, it can provide challenges.

371
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,519
We'll jump right into timeline and for those of you watching,

372
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,599
I don't know if Joe's sharing it yet, but we're

373
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,960
looking at kind of the Elk Mountain area.

374
00:21:15,279 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: It looks pretty rugged. Yeah, it's pretty rugged. I can

375
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,079
see all the dirt roads are not labeled. Even when

376
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:20,680
I zoom in.

377
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know if they're hiking trails more so.

378
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 2: Than like ATV. Yeah, but it's pretty remote. They said

379
00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:30,920
it was by Torrero, Like, yeah, there's Carrero.

380
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

381
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 2: So it's like this is Vegos. Uh, there's Santa Fe

382
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,640
right here. Okay, yeah they said his. I mean this

383
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,519
is a large area, but like his campsites, like.

384
00:21:43,519 --> 00:21:46,799
Speaker 3: This, how close? And now I'm curious before I get

385
00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:49,000
in the time, how close is this the Great Sand Dunes?

386
00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:52,920
Might have to type it in find out find out

387
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:58,079
because I'm there's Vegas okay, so not that close. Yeah,

388
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,400
there's Santa Fe National Forest. I can see how the

389
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:07,079
mountain chain got three hundred miles south. Okay, interesting maybe more.

390
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 2: Than I'm like looking down at the bar at the

391
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,640
bottom of the screen and looking at the screen. This

392
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,319
is not scientific at all, not even as the crow

393
00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:21,319
flies No, okay, yeah, it's just interesting since this mountain

394
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,680
range was featured in one of our other cases recently,

395
00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:28,119
and not to plug our Patreon page again, but one

396
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,759
of the voicemails was a lady who believes she was

397
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:35,400
the last person to see Brian Sklinsky alive. Yeah, which

398
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,359
was pretty crazy. And it was I was very convinced

399
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,279
what she said the timeline. I'm very she's a sociopath

400
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:46,200
and a liar. And why would you exactly? Yeah, because

401
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,799
it happens so long ago. I mean, what do you

402
00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:48,440
have the game for that?

403
00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: But yeah, I really do think based on her description

404
00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:52,559
that she did see him.

405
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's roughly one hundred and fifty miles of

406
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,000
that last story.

407
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 3: Gotcha, all right? So we will jump right into the time.

408
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,720
So we're gonna start a few days before Sunday, September

409
00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:05,759
sixth of two thousand and nine. So in the days

410
00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:08,359
leading up to the Labor Day week and hunting trip,

411
00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:11,720
Melvin at some point injured his knee, like I said.

412
00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:14,200
One account says he might have twisted it stepping in

413
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,839
a gopher hole while target practicing. Another says it was

414
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,519
an injury during a pilates class. Whatever the cause of

415
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:24,480
the injury, the knee was hurt badly enough that he

416
00:23:24,519 --> 00:23:27,039
had the rapit, but not bad enough that he couldn't

417
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,039
go hunting in his mind, so some people close to

418
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,720
him actually thought he maybe shouldn't have gone on that

419
00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:36,480
year's trip, but Melvin insisted it wasn't that bad. And honestly,

420
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,240
I get why he did it. He sits in a blind,

421
00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:43,039
it's only one hundred yards from camp. That doesn't sound

422
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,359
like something you couldn't do with a bum knee. Yeah.

423
00:23:46,839 --> 00:23:50,240
It is now Sunday, September sixth, two thousand and nine.

424
00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:53,559
It was Labor Day weekend. Melvin drove his Burgundy two

425
00:23:53,599 --> 00:23:57,319
thousand and one jeep Cherokee to the area to Elk

426
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,000
Mount area of Santa Fe National Forest near Peycos, New Mexican.

427
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,559
He was meeting two hunting companions, Joe Moons, a longtime

428
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:08,359
friend and Joe's brother in law, identified in some sources

429
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,759
as Kevin and in other sources as Eric so Kevin

430
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,839
or Eric. The three men set up camp near a

431
00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:17,079
clearing deep in the forest off a dirt road not

432
00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:20,480
far from the Pecos River, which is a place that

433
00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:25,359
Melvin had visited many times before. And I should note

434
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,920
that there was some news reports that described his vehicle

435
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,680
a little different than this. Just take that with a

436
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,000
grain of salt. And so the plan was straightforward. Joe

437
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:37,839
and Kevin would hike further out, heading towards the peak,

438
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,519
with the goal of pushing animals back towards Melvin's position. Melvin,

439
00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:45,200
who was cautious and limited by his injured knee, would

440
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,279
stay close to camp. At approximately four point thirty in

441
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,880
the afternoon, Melvin left the camp site. He told his

442
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,279
friends he would not travel far and that he would

443
00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:59,119
be back before nightfall. He pointed to a group of trees,

444
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,960
like I said, that was only one hundred to two

445
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,480
one hundred and fifty yards down trail, and that's where

446
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,799
he planned to set up his blind. So at the

447
00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:09,200
time he was carrying with him he had his compound

448
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,359
bow with the black and white zebra striped arrows. He

449
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,440
had his forty four Special revolver, and he has hunting

450
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,880
knife and Joe, I'm curious, can you pull up what

451
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,759
a forty four Special revolver looks?

452
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:20,839
Speaker 1: Like?

453
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 3: Yes, I just it's come up in the case a

454
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,880
few times now, and I'm just interested to see. In

455
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,519
my mind, I have a picture of like a cowboy

456
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,880
with the one where you're.

457
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: Like, okay, yeah, it's it's I mean it's I always

458
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,480
looked at those as like the old cop guns. Oh yeah,

459
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,039
like from the eighties and the nineties. Yeah, it's like

460
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:48,880
what the sheriffs had. Yeah, in like a small town, Yes, exactly. Okay,

461
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,960
So something similar to one of these is what he

462
00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:54,680
was carrying on him, Okay, and it looks like it

463
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:57,759
packs a pretty good punch based on the bullets.

464
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,279
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. I know a lot of guys

465
00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:06,720
at bowhunt will carry them just for safety. Yeah. So interesting. Okay,

466
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,359
Well I just wanted to see what it looked like. Yep.

467
00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:13,119
So he was dressed like Joe had mentioned and I

468
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,480
had mentioned, in full camouflage. He had a camouflage print jacket,

469
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,359
shirt and pants. And obviously this kind of gear is

470
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,559
not great for search and rescue teams to find somebody,

471
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:25,440
but it's great for when you're hunting.

472
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 4: Though.

473
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,519
Speaker 3: The funny thing is when you hunt here in Wisconsin,

474
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:31,599
like deer hunting season, you have to wear blaze orange.

475
00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:37,279
So if you go missing in Wisconsin, he might be

476
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,720
found easier because you're gonna have just blaze orange all

477
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:46,000
over you. His blazing blazing orange. Yes, that's the name

478
00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:50,640
of the color. So inside his jeep park near the campsite,

479
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,000
Melvin left behind his backpack, his cell phone, and his

480
00:26:54,079 --> 00:26:57,880
GPS and obviously he normally does carry his GPS with

481
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,640
him while hunting to keep from getting lost, specifically because

482
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,559
he got lost in the past, but for whatever reason,

483
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,759
he decided not to carry it with him this time,

484
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:12,079
So the fact that he left it behind strongly suggests

485
00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:14,799
he believed the hunt would be brief and very close

486
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:18,079
to camp. One source also reports that a half eaten

487
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,440
subway sandwich was found inside the vehicle, in that Melvin's

488
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:25,559
hunting blind had been deconstructed and placed back in the jeep.

489
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,759
So this detail does raise questions that if Melvin had

490
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:32,200
set up a blind and then took it down, did

491
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,680
he return to camp at some point before heading out again.

492
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,680
And this is the one note I had on the

493
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,119
conflict about his truck. So some sources state it is

494
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,000
a two thousand and one jeep Cherokee with gear locked inside,

495
00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:49,039
but then another the Queue Center for Missing Persons, described

496
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:52,160
the vehicle as an unlocked Burgundy jeep Wrangler, So he

497
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,839
was in a jeep. It might have been locked, it

498
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,880
might have been unlocked, but the core fact is that

499
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,559
the critical survival and navigation gear was left in the

500
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,720
vehicle at the Bass camp, and that is really consistent

501
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,680
across all the sources. iPhone It's now same day, Sunday,

502
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,599
September ninth, two thousand and nine. It's now evening, so

503
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,799
as the sun began to go down over Elk Mountain,

504
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,319
Joe and Kevin returned to Bass Camp after their hunt.

505
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,759
Melvin's jeep was still parked the camp, but Melvin was

506
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,200
not there. They called out for him, no reply. As

507
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,279
it got darker and darker, there was still no sign

508
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,279
of him. His friends resorted to a time honored wilderness signal.

509
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,839
They fired two shots into the air, hoping Melvin would

510
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,720
hear them and either respond or navigate back to the sound. Strangely,

511
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:40,200
two shots were returned from somewhere in the distance, off

512
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,680
in the dark forest, but they never were able to

513
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,960
figure out who fired those shots. So Joe and Kevin

514
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,839
immediately jumped into action. They got into their vehicles and

515
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,119
turned down their headlights, their high beams, they laid on

516
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,000
their horns. They drove towards the direction of the return shots,

517
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,079
but they found nothing. No Melvin, no voice calling back. Silence.

518
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:04,279
So at some point that evening, another hunter in the

519
00:29:04,279 --> 00:29:07,480
area encountered Joe and Kevin, and this hunter had a

520
00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:12,039
satellite phone and they used it to contact search and rescue.

521
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:15,839
So pretty fortunate for those two guys that they found

522
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,000
someone with the satellite phone, because the searchers were alerted

523
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:22,319
pretty much right away because he was supposed to be

524
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,079
back by nightfall and he wasn't. So it's now Monday,

525
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,799
September seventh, going into that week, so a search and

526
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:32,480
rescue operation was launched. It was led by the New

527
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,200
Mexico State Police. Over the course of the week, the

528
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,200
operation grew to include upwards of thirty people on the ground.

529
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:41,720
They had search dogs and even a Blackhawk helicopter scanning

530
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,599
the terrain from above. Canine units were brought into Melvin's

531
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,480
campsite and put on his scent. The dogs actually immediately

532
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:53,960
picked up his trail and followed it from camp, heading

533
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,000
down the exact trail he had told his friends he

534
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,240
would take. But the dogs tracked the scent approximate only

535
00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:03,160
fifty yards from the campsite, directly to the area where

536
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,200
everyone expected him to be. But then the scent just

537
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,960
simply stopped. So that was a little bizarre. The dogs

538
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,759
had a strong scent and then it just stopped. There

539
00:30:13,839 --> 00:30:17,160
was no continuation, no cent trail leading further into the forest,

540
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,319
no indication he had wandered off in any direction, no blood,

541
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,160
no signs of a struggle, no dropped arrows, no shell casings, nothing.

542
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,039
His wife, Edna Nadel, later said, they never found the bow.

543
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,519
No did they ever find anything? No, never found anything.

544
00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:35,039
That is the bizarre stuff. How can you get carry

545
00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:36,759
it if you get lost, isn't it going to get

546
00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:39,680
heavy and hold onto all of it? And there's nothing,

547
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,839
no shoes, one of the arrows would have fallen, or

548
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,960
the bow has to drop because those are heavy. But

549
00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:50,400
there was nothing. So when asked if search and rescue

550
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,680
personnel found the circumstances odd, his wife responded, everybody said

551
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,319
it was odd. So she's got a point. Yeah, you've

552
00:30:58,359 --> 00:31:01,519
got the strange fact that the scent went in the

553
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:04,599
direction where he was going and then just stopped completely.

554
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: Which we've heard about that in another case. Isn't one

555
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,319
o the thing that means we don't have to get

556
00:31:09,319 --> 00:31:09,799
into yet?

557
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? Maybe, but yeah, it could mean something. But you

558
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,039
would think that the scent would continue and then it

559
00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:20,400
wouldn't just stop in one position. You would assume you'd

560
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,480
find stuff there. But like she said, the bow is heavy,

561
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:26,920
like they didn't find his bow and abom knee and

562
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,559
abum knee going far fast he's not going very far,

563
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:34,960
so very very interesting. So searchers combed the rugged terrain

564
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,039
around Elk Mountain with extraordinary precision. More than fifty volunteers

565
00:31:39,079 --> 00:31:43,720
participate across multiple search efforts, working grid searches and line

566
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,119
movements through the mountainous train. This is an area with cliffs, rocks,

567
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,680
dense forest, but also logging trails, hiking paths, and old roads.

568
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,720
The Pecos River also ran through the area and was

569
00:31:54,759 --> 00:31:58,400
also searched. So unlike some of the like Denali, the

570
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,880
case we didn't Denali, where you're just like out there.

571
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,920
This has a lot of stuff. There's logging roads and trails,

572
00:32:05,119 --> 00:32:07,640
old roads and rivers and which if you're lost you

573
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,000
can find one of those. And this guy's say on

574
00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:12,880
it sounded smart and capable, and he's been out there

575
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,000
a lot. He's even been lost before, like Joe mentioned

576
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,640
in one of your tips, if you're lost, follow the

577
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,319
rivers downstream, just walk the river. They all go down.

578
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,640
So this is all stuff he would probably have known,

579
00:32:26,039 --> 00:32:30,039
which makes it all the more bizarre. It's now Friday,

580
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:33,640
September eleventh of two thousand and nine, so by nearly

581
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,160
a week after the disappearance, Melvin's wife Edna and daughter

582
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,720
Christen had spent days waiting and wondering. In a news

583
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:45,680
segment that aired on KRQE around this time, Edna said,

584
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,079
I am hoping. I'm hoping, no sign, no leads as

585
00:32:49,119 --> 00:32:53,079
of yet, We've pretty much thought of every possibility. And

586
00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:55,759
then Kristen told the cameras, I can't even tell you

587
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:57,839
how many scenarios I've made up in my mind, you know,

588
00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:00,799
just like what if this happened, what if this happened,

589
00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:03,039
But you know, there's really no way of knowing at

590
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:07,079
this point. And then Elda or Edna, who at this

591
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,000
point was barely holding it together, said, kind of like

592
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,000
thinking that my husband is lying there somewhere. It's unbearable.

593
00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:16,319
He is a very good person. He doesn't deserve this,

594
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,880
so pretty pretty sad stuff. The state police continued to

595
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,079
classify the operation as a search and rescue effort, and

596
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,759
volunteers were asked to call to New Mexico State Police

597
00:33:26,759 --> 00:33:29,079
District one office, which the number at the time was

598
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,400
five O five A two seven nine three zero zero.

599
00:33:33,119 --> 00:33:36,799
It's now Saturday, September twelfth of two thousand and nine.

600
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,599
There was a major volunteer search that was organized, so

601
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,119
volunteers were told to meet at seven am at the

602
00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:46,079
end of State Highway sixty three in Peiko's well Inness area.

603
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,680
The search that day focused on a very mountainous area

604
00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:53,319
with lots of cliffs and rocks, but sadly around September

605
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,200
twelfth to September thirteenth of two thousand and nine and

606
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,319
the search was eventually called off. So this was one

607
00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:03,480
week of intensive searching already, the New Mexico State Police

608
00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:08,079
called off the search operation. Dozens of rescuers had scoured

609
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:10,880
the Elk Mountain area in surrounding wilderness and didn't find

610
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,440
a single clue, so you can't search forever. It's now Monday,

611
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:19,079
September fourteenth of two thousand and nine, so two days

612
00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:21,800
after the official search was called off, a local news

613
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,239
station KOBTV reported that Melvin's family was continuing their own search.

614
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,480
They followed the Pekos server south near Val Kilmer's property.

615
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,760
Val Kilmer's property in the Pekos area, hoping to find

616
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,320
some sign of Melvin. Moving forward, now we're into October.

617
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,400
It's October twenty fourth, two thousand and nine, so this

618
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,599
would be six weeks after Melvin vanished. Another local news

619
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:48,840
station aired a segment where Melvin's wife Edna and daughter

620
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,119
Kristen were still pressing forward organizing another big volunteer search

621
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:56,599
effort for that coming Sunday. And at this time everyone

622
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,400
was aware that winter was approaching and snow would soon

623
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,239
blank the so that would potentially bury any remaining evidence.

624
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,320
So they had they wanted to get out there and

625
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,159
get one more search in before before that little air

626
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:12,360
of desperation. Yeah, And in that broadcast, the family expressed

627
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,199
their belief that whatever happened to Melvin was beyond his control,

628
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,679
and they this is when they started raising the possibility

629
00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:23,239
that he may have encountered the wrong people. I put

630
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,719
that in air quotes in the woods. His daughter said,

631
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,800
it's really hard because, you know, I still go to

632
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,639
the school, and I still have all I still go

633
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:33,760
to school and still have all the things that I

634
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,079
do a normal day to day basis. And sometimes when

635
00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:38,840
I'm just doing those things and I feel kind of happy,

636
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,800
I feel like I shouldn't be happy, because in the

637
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,920
back of my mind it's always there. Then Edna made

638
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,360
a direct appeal to people watching, there's anybody that knows something,

639
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,679
just please come forward. We wanted something. We wanted something,

640
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,519
some closure in this. You know, it's really I'm begging now.

641
00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:58,800
So the family had also put together a dedicated website

642
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,000
for the search effort, and this was accessible at the

643
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:06,480
time through the local news station's link. It's now approximately

644
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,639
June of twenty ten. This would be when there was

645
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:13,239
another search effort, so roughly this would be nine months

646
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,760
after Melvin disappeared. Once Winter had thought out, they organized

647
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,079
a second search in the Elk Mount area, and again,

648
00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:24,679
despite extensive efforts, the result was the same. Not a

649
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,079
single clue surface, not a shred of clothing, not his bow,

650
00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:33,079
not his arrows, his knife, not even a footprint. So finally,

651
00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:36,239
by September twenty ten, the family now is just seeking

652
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,559
a death certificate. So about one year after he vanished,

653
00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:43,000
an attorney, acting on behalf of his wife, filed to

654
00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:46,760
obtain a death certificate. It's a painful but necessary legal

655
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,920
step that allows the surviving family members to settle estates,

656
00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:55,679
manage finances, and navigate the bureaucratic realities of someone disappearing

657
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:01,000
like this. Then, on September of twenty thirteen, four years

658
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,119
after he vanished, another local news station aired a brief

659
00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:07,400
segment noting that his wife was still holding out hope

660
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,280
for answers. Then, in twenty nineteen, our friend David Politis

661
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,280
came out with the documentary Missing four on One The Hunted,

662
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:20,400
and Melvin's case received significant renewed attention when it was

663
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,599
featured in the documentary Missing four on One The Hunted,

664
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,599
directed by Like I said, David Politis, included interviews with

665
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,599
Edna and local hunting guide named Bob with twenty five

666
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:36,039
years of experience in the Santa Fe Mountains. When asked

667
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,440
what he thought could have happened, Bob said, here in

668
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,320
New Mexico Roswell Alium duction. Yeah. Really, he had to

669
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,199
have gotten a ride out. He had to have been

670
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,599
picked up or gotten a ride out. I assume politics

671
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:54,559
placed Melvin's disappearance within a broader geographical cluster of unexplained

672
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:58,159
vanishings in the Santa Fe area, noting it alongside the

673
00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:03,559
twenty seventeen disappearance of Stanley vigil A near Burrellis Peak,

674
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,320
just ten miles from where Melvin vanished.

675
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: And I don't know how I feel about this anymore,

676
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,679
after all the stuff we've been hearing about him.

677
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,119
Speaker 3: Well, the controversy this documentary had a lot of controversy

678
00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:20,199
because one of the cases he covered, Aaron Hedges. We

679
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,599
actually covered his case too. He left out crucial facts

680
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:29,199
about the case to make it sound more mysterious. And

681
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,519
I won't go into it. You can go and google it.

682
00:38:33,519 --> 00:38:37,960
It's a cash grab, yes, I mean he left out

683
00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:42,559
facts about the case that no one else covering the

684
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:44,880
pot covering that case would have left out.

685
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you actually want to know, I was trying

686
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,360
to find a SoundBite from the Tim Robinson still of

687
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,519
saying him saying cash grab, because that's why I think

688
00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:56,400
of when I think of Politis now like he's just

689
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,599
trying to sell books and sell stories and not actually

690
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,599
because he started out supposedly wanting to find the link

691
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:06,880
between all this and now yeah, it's just a cash crab. No,

692
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:08,719
I don't want to go into it, but oh we

693
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,960
should go into it. Yeah, he'll he'll try suing us. Yeah,

694
00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:15,039
he's been known to do that.

695
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah he has. But press is good press money. Yeah, right,

696
00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:22,679
anyone with a keyboard can go out there and look

697
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,119
at the discrepancies in this documentary that he produced. Yeah,

698
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:33,880
just like search Google for David Politis fraud. Surprisingly, his

699
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,960
coverage on Melvin was pretty straightforward, but the Aaron Hedges

700
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:39,719
case was bad.

701
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure I'm giving him some crap.

702
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,960
I'm sure most of the stuff has most of the things,

703
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,760
but no, I mean tipping the scales somewhere in some areas.

704
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 3: I have found a lot of actual errors in his

705
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,400
books because I have a bunch of his books, because

706
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,800
that was kind of my like reading through his books

707
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,840
got me interested in this stuff. Yeah, and when you

708
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,039
start going through the cases and then I was like

709
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:09,119
cross referencing things he had in his book, and there's

710
00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:13,159
just stuff missing names, spelled wrong, And there's all kinds

711
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:17,519
of theories online about why this has been done. And

712
00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:19,599
we talked about it on a Patreon episode. So if

713
00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:21,440
you want to hear our true opinions on it, you

714
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:21,719
got to.

715
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: No, you got a little taste. Now if you want

716
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,199
all the tea. Yeah, so you had to cough up

717
00:40:26,199 --> 00:40:28,559
the big bucks. Yeah, cough up the big bucks. But

718
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,320
so a little tangent there. But either way, like Joe said, no,

719
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,119
it's still good for exposure to the case because this

720
00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:39,719
documentary was big at the time when it came out,

721
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,199
so it got a lot of exposure from Melvin's case

722
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,960
twenty twenty one. Now it's February sixth of twenty twenty one.

723
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:49,400
So a post appeared on Facebook from what appears to

724
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,000
be his daughter set and it said, my dad went

725
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,280
missing Episodetember six, two thousand and nine, without a trace.

726
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,360
This happened in Pecoast in Mexico. Then in November twenty

727
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,360
twenty five, so pretty recent, his daughter did a Reddit

728
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:08,880
ama on her dad's disappearance, and she was as specific

729
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,760
When asked what specific evidence letter to believe it was

730
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,360
foul play rather than an accent, she responded, I've always

731
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,440
believed that way because nothing was ever discovered, no trace

732
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,679
of him, no scrap of clothing, no nor any any

733
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,360
of his weapons. He was equipped with a gun, a bow,

734
00:41:26,079 --> 00:41:29,880
all the arrows, and a knife. Another commentary suggested he

735
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,320
may have encountered someone who wanted to steal his weapons,

736
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,880
she replied, And she replied, I'm convinced he encountered the

737
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,320
wrong individual group and his weapons were never located. So

738
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,119
as of present day March twenty twenty six, Melvin has

739
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,079
never been found.

740
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 3: There's been no remains.

741
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,599
Speaker 2: Okncerry, I do have this up, Okay, I will read

742
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:53,000
it out in a second No, hold on, I won't

743
00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:56,119
read it, but I just saw someone asked, did your

744
00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:59,079
family receive any compensation or monetary help from David poled

745
00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:02,000
As to aid in his curt recovery. Here's what she wrote, No,

746
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:04,400
we did not receive any compensation from him. Part of

747
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,719
the reason I didn't want to talk was because I

748
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,159
kind of felt, while it was a way to get

749
00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:12,039
my dad's case out there again, that it was a

750
00:42:12,039 --> 00:42:12,760
cash grab.

751
00:42:13,199 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: She called it a cash crop.

752
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: And that's her. That's her, Yes, I read it, use

753
00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:19,480
her name. Yeah, so that's like, that's her. And this

754
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:22,400
is yeah, I have this is the amah God. I

755
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:24,199
was following along while you're talking about I just thought

756
00:42:24,199 --> 00:42:26,159
it was funny that she just also said that.

757
00:42:26,639 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

758
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,599
Speaker 2: I just said it was probably cash grab, and she said, yeah,

759
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:30,840
that was felt like a cash grab.

760
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,079
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah. I mean, well, gotta go pay to listen

761
00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:39,480
to our thoughts, our deep thoughts on mister politis the third.

762
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 2: Question, what do you want the public to know about

763
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,320
your dad that may add insight to his disappearance? She wrote,

764
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,159
My dad and I had active plans for the following

765
00:42:47,199 --> 00:42:49,559
few days, as I had just moved into my own

766
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:52,360
apartment that week, and he was helping me get settled.

767
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:54,960
He would never be the type to willingly disappear. We

768
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,079
were very close to my entire life. Okay, yeah, all right,

769
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,440
so this is yeah, this is an interesting AMA. I

770
00:43:01,519 --> 00:43:05,440
kind of really get into, you know, the inside baseball

771
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:06,360
on the disappearance.

772
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:11,039
Speaker 3: Yeah. It was on the r Missing fow and one forum. Yeah.

773
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,119
Like I said, as of March twenty twenty six, he's

774
00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:18,480
never been found, no remains, no clothing, no weapons, no

775
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:23,639
personal effects. He's listed in the National Missing and Unidentified

776
00:43:23,679 --> 00:43:27,719
Person System name US. His family does not believe he

777
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,559
left on his own accord. Joe just read the statement

778
00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:33,559
from his daughter. But police have no evidence of foul play.

779
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,599
So you want to hear from the family. Yeah, let's

780
00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:38,719
hear a little clip here? Are you gonna share it?

781
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 4: Tonight? Sixty one year old hunter who disappeared in the

782
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,239
Pekas wildron this near Santa Fe Sunday. Search crews have

783
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,199
been looking for him all week, and tomorrow they plan

784
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,199
to step up their efforts. News searteen's Jim Winchester has

785
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:52,400
more from the newsbooks.

786
00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:55,639
Speaker 5: Well Dick State police and volunteers will meet first thing

787
00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:58,800
tomorrow morning for a major search and rescue effort to

788
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,480
find sixty one year old Mel Nadell.

789
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,119
Speaker 6: I am hoping. I am hoping. No sign, no leads.

790
00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:07,880
As of yet, We've pretty much thought.

791
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: Of every possibility what.

792
00:44:09,519 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 7: Happened to Mel Nadell, the popular owner of a fitness

793
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,280
facility in Santa Fe, has disappeared without a trace.

794
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 8: I'm kind of like hoping that, however state he is now,

795
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:25,280
I just went him home.

796
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 7: Upwards of thirty people, search dogs and even black Hawk

797
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,079
helicopters have searched the area this week where a friend

798
00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:34,639
last saw him Sunday evening when.

799
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 3: We followed the trail.

800
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,119
Speaker 6: The dogs tracked the trail all the way down to

801
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:40,400
where he was last seeing or heard from from that point.

802
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,960
They're continuing to a great search around that area, you know,

803
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,840
from a few miles out, and still no leads.

804
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:46,079
Speaker 3: At this point.

805
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 7: Nadelle's wife and daughter have spent the past five days

806
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:50,920
waiting and wondering.

807
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,079
Speaker 8: I can't even tell you how many scenarios I've made

808
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:55,960
up in my mind, you know, just like what if

809
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,239
this happened, What if this happened?

810
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,599
Speaker 3: But you know, there's really no way of knowing.

811
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,519
Speaker 8: At this point point he he's alive, I will be very,

812
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:04,239
very thankful.

813
00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 7: Tomorrow's volunteer search effort. We'll focus on a very mountainous

814
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,960
area with cliffs and rocks. Nadelle's family is holding out hope, kind.

815
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,559
Speaker 8: Of like thinking that my husband is lying there somewhere.

816
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:23,280
It's unbearable. He is a very good person and he

817
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:24,320
doesn't deserve this.

818
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,599
Speaker 5: And state police and the family ask anyone who is

819
00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:32,119
interested in volunteering in tomorrow's search effort for mel Nadelle

820
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,840
to call their district office in that area.

821
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 7: That number is fiveh five eight.

822
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 3: That's sad.

823
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: That's a week week into it. So they're still kind

824
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:43,519
of in the throes of everything.

825
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 3: That's that. That stinks. Yeah, I mean, what is that

826
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,280
sixteen years ago now? Yep, yep, so ten years ago. Yeah,

827
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,159
it's crazy that all is. So we'll get into theories,

828
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,760
jump right into theories. So I'll start with I'm gonna

829
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,679
do the kind of thing I like to do these days.

830
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:08,800
Most likely maybe likely, not likely, most likely, this is

831
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,679
not all. This is usually not the theory. We go

832
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,320
with it first, So I put most likely foul play. Okay,

833
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,960
I'll explain my reasoning here. Yeah, tell me. The theory goes,

834
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,760
he encountered another person or group in the woods. And

835
00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:27,840
this is obviously a theory that the daughter believes, and

836
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,559
she's consistently held it. She had the right at Ama

837
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,320
just in twenty twenty five and earlier on. She's, like

838
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,760
we said, always believed that something happened to him. That's

839
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,800
why no trace of him, no scrap or anything, was found,

840
00:46:43,039 --> 00:46:46,480
none of his equipment. The reasons why this fits is

841
00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:50,719
it's one of the only theories that coherently explains the

842
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,199
total absence of physical evidence, no body, clothing, weapons, nothing.

843
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:57,679
If Melvin had died of natural causes exposure, a fall,

844
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,679
or an animal attack in the forest, something would have

845
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,840
surfaced in the sixteen years of searching. Just because of

846
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,239
the general human traffic of the area. This isn't like

847
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,119
an extremely remote place like Denali or some of the

848
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,400
places we've covered. There's a lot more people here, hunters especially,

849
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,199
you know, an area where there's lots of hunters. I

850
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,679
almost think there's better odds of somebody's remains being found

851
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,280
because hunters aren't staying on trail. They're looking for a

852
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,039
blind or you know, they're looking for spots to hunt

853
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:29,760
and like that ties into. The Elk Mount area is

854
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,880
not a trackless jungle. It's crisscross with trails, logging roads, paths,

855
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,800
streams that flow downhill eventually to civilization. A body or

856
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,079
gear left in this train has a reasonable chance of

857
00:47:41,119 --> 00:47:45,760
being discovered over time, and the area around Pecos has

858
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,760
historically been associated with illegal drug cultivation and trafficking. The

859
00:47:51,039 --> 00:47:55,719
Land of Entrampment blog notes that some theorists think the

860
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,159
victim ran into a drug operation or some south of

861
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:01,960
the border carte gangster stuff, or into some type of

862
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,880
gun running operation, though the author also notes no reefer

863
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,199
fields were found during the search, but he may have

864
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:13,400
stumbled across something or someone he wasn't supposed to see,

865
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,480
So the area has a history of this kind of activity.

866
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:21,280
I think that strengthens the foul play case. Another part

867
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,119
of this is mel was a smaller individual. He was

868
00:48:25,199 --> 00:48:27,760
five 't two, one hundred and thirty five pounds, and

869
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,559
he had an injured knee. Despite being armed and a

870
00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:33,519
black belt, he would have been physically vulnerable if surprised

871
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:37,079
or outnumbered, especially if it was getting dark. It's getting dark.

872
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,079
He is trained in martial arts and he had a gun,

873
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,639
but he was injured. Yeah, I mean having a bad knee.

874
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:46,719
I remember, Joe, you hiked with us when you're with

875
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,840
a bad knee, and I mean it was almost completely debilitating. Yeah.

876
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,639
You're like a different person when your knee is messed

877
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,880
up like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the deconstructed blind

878
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,679
and half eating sandwich suggests he may have returned to

879
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,880
the v vehicle at some point before going missing. This

880
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,840
also creates a window where he was at or near camp,

881
00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:11,519
possibly visible from the road, and potentially encountered someone. And Kristin,

882
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:14,320
which is the daughter, also criticized the handling of the scene,

883
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,159
so the jeep was never treated as a potential crime scene,

884
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:20,280
there was no forensic stunt on it, and it sat

885
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,519
accessible to anyone for days before being returned to the family.

886
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,960
Things that go against the foul play theory is there's

887
00:49:27,199 --> 00:49:31,920
really no motive that's been identified by law enforcement. Joe, Kevin, Edna,

888
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,000
and Kristen were all investigated and cleared. There is no

889
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,599
suspects ever emerged, so and there was really no evidence

890
00:49:39,639 --> 00:49:41,880
of any kind of crime happening. Now, they didn't do

891
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,800
a forensic sweep of the vehicle, but there was no blood,

892
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,679
no signs of a struggle anything. Next theory that is

893
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,000
likely would be a medical event followed by the concealment

894
00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:55,199
of his body due to the train. So obviously he

895
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,280
was sixty one with an injurnee. You know those wife

896
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,000
said he had no known health issue. You know, sudden

897
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:04,679
cardiac events, stroke, our aneurysms can strike without warning. He

898
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:08,280
could have suffered some type of medical emergency like that

899
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,840
that dropped him quickly and silently. This would explain the

900
00:50:12,119 --> 00:50:15,239
abrupt end of the scent trail and lack of a struggle.

901
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,760
The search strain included cliffs, rocks, dense brush, and water features.

902
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,400
If a body fell into a crevasse, a deep ravine

903
00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:26,039
or in a fast moving water could remain undiscovered for decades.

904
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,599
Though the Pecos River was searched, but it's very dynamic waterway.

905
00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:34,840
A body entering the water could be carried miles downstream.

906
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,079
Now why this doesn't work is fifty volunteers across multiple efforts,

907
00:50:40,159 --> 00:50:44,239
canine units, blackhawk helicopters all searched the area and found

908
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,400
a total absence of any trace, not just a body.

909
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,440
But they didn't find a bow, arrow's revolver knife boots watch,

910
00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:54,719
which would be extremely difficult to explain through natural concealment

911
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,960
alone if he had just suffered a medical emergency and

912
00:50:59,199 --> 00:51:03,920
metal and synthic materials don't decompose, so that stuff would

913
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,559
be out there even sixteen years later. You're going to

914
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:09,599
find a compound bowl, yeah, if you stumble across it.

915
00:51:10,159 --> 00:51:13,199
Possible theories of what happened animal attacks, so they're barren

916
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,239
mountain lions in the area, So obviously Elk Mountain is

917
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,960
home to black bears, mountain lions by bobcats, coyotes. Mountain

918
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,360
lion ambush is like Joe mentioned, sudden, silent and comes

919
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,559
from behind. Mel might not have had time to react

920
00:51:26,639 --> 00:51:30,719
or even get his gun out. Why this might work

921
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,599
Mountain lion attacks can be swift and lethal, and the

922
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:37,079
cat can drag prey at a significant distance from the

923
00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:41,440
kill site. Black bears, while rarely predatory towards humans, are

924
00:51:41,519 --> 00:51:45,760
capable of it. Why this obviously falls apart is animal

925
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,639
attacks leave a mess. They're going to see that. The

926
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:51,000
dogs are going to pick up on that. They didn't

927
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,679
find any of that. Predators don't clean up metal weapons

928
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,679
or arrows or boots, and like I said, the canine

929
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:57,800
units would have I.

930
00:51:58,559 --> 00:52:01,599
Speaker 2: Would rule that out as just not possible even or

931
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,760
so improbable that it feels impossible.

932
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, unless he wasn't in the area where they thought he.

933
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 2: Was, which again, yeah, his truck's there and he's got

934
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:12,639
a bum knee.

935
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,679
Speaker 3: Yeah. Another one is got lost, died of exposure, body

936
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,360
never found, you know the official classifications. So Mel wandered

937
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,000
farther than intended, became lost, he didn't have his GPS,

938
00:52:25,119 --> 00:52:29,920
bad knee, fading light, and he just succumbed to exposure

939
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:33,760
or fell in train that concealed him. You know why

940
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,280
this works. He'd gotten lost in the past, so he's

941
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,440
been lost, he didn't have his GPS, it was night,

942
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,559
and you know that same blog I mentioned earlier notes

943
00:52:43,599 --> 00:52:46,159
that scent dogs are only accurate fifty percent of the

944
00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:50,320
time on average, So the short scent trail may simply

945
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:55,760
reflect dog limitations rather than anything stranger than that or paranormal.

946
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,039
So I have to say something on this because I've seen, Yeah,

947
00:52:58,079 --> 00:52:59,960
you go into what you were talking about with dog suns.

948
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:02,159
Speaker 2: I feel like on this show, because we've talked to

949
00:53:02,199 --> 00:53:05,039
people who know about dogs and are somewhat experts on

950
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:07,760
dogs and We've read lots of things. I feel like

951
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,280
we keep hearing either the dogs are amazing or the

952
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,000
dogs aren't that accurate. Yeah, it seems like a ping

953
00:53:13,039 --> 00:53:15,920
pongs back and forth. But the one thing I was

954
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:17,840
thinking of why the scent would just end if you

955
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,440
got into a vehicle. Okay, so this is like where

956
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,519
going in to fall play. It could be did he

957
00:53:23,599 --> 00:53:26,159
get into a car with somebody who he thought was safe.

958
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:27,960
Was he forced into a vehicle?

959
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:30,599
Speaker 3: So like he walked to that spot then walked the

960
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:34,079
same spot back. The dogs would know which way he watched,

961
00:53:34,199 --> 00:53:36,920
or did they get picked up at the spot? Well,

962
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,599
the spot was in, Oh was in Okay, so I

963
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:42,440
mean like fifty yards from his camp. But I could

964
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,079
you know what if you walked that trail in to

965
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:47,079
your blind Yeah, you're gonna walk the same one back,

966
00:53:47,199 --> 00:53:49,199
same one back. So the scent is going to be

967
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:50,960
in the spot you walked, and then it's going to

968
00:53:51,039 --> 00:53:53,519
be all over the campsite where you were. And something

969
00:53:53,559 --> 00:53:55,639
happened there and he got snatched up.

970
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's where That's what I immediately said. Okay,

971
00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:01,719
they had a scent that was gone. That means he

972
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,719
was physically removed in a way where his skin wouldn't

973
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:06,519
be shedding out to leave scent, which would be in

974
00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:09,559
an automobile. And then I was thinking in my head,

975
00:54:09,679 --> 00:54:12,079
like how they detect that is, they talk about the

976
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:13,800
dogs that can pick up the scent, but it's because

977
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,599
they're going like the cone pattern, and they'll pick up

978
00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:19,599
when the person got out of the car. So you'd

979
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:22,599
have to be somewhat relatively in the area, yeah, to still,

980
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,920
or the windows would have to be rolled down or something.

981
00:54:25,079 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, but interesting.

982
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel I feel like the effectiveness of scent

983
00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:31,880
dogs ping pongs, and maybe it could just be that

984
00:54:32,039 --> 00:54:35,519
some search and rescue have better scent dogs than others.

985
00:54:35,559 --> 00:54:38,119
Like I assume that could be a thing, right, Like.

986
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,559
Speaker 3: I mean, they're they're trained to do it, So I

987
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,599
assume that there is there's some standard dogs are not

988
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,800
like robots. Yeah that every dog. Probably there's probably like

989
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,800
dogs that are better at it and dogs that are

990
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:52,320
worse at it.

991
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 2: And there could be a train or good days smelling

992
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:57,000
if they're sick or something, and.

993
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,679
Speaker 3: I mean they're just let us. Yeah, I'm I'm assuming

994
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,960
there's a lot of variables in it. Probably, you know,

995
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,760
we should do a whole episode on dogs. We should

996
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,599
and we should get an expert that the shield. We

997
00:55:09,599 --> 00:55:13,360
should get a dog in the studio. Let's get a

998
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:14,840
local dog we should know.

999
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 2: I'm just saying she could try and find like a

1000
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,880
local guy who does like somebody who does local that

1001
00:55:20,159 --> 00:55:21,039
cool search and rescue, and.

1002
00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:22,159
Speaker 3: We could like test the dog.

1003
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, different scenarios just in our like small studio.

1004
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, go find this. We'll put like a sausage

1005
00:55:28,679 --> 00:55:30,480
in your pocket and have you go hide somewhere and

1006
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:31,719
see if the dog can find you.

1007
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 2: I think, I think if you did that, I could

1008
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:41,920
find you. But I'm I'm leaning towards foul play. But continue.

1009
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, so why the getting lost theory doesn't work

1010
00:55:46,079 --> 00:55:48,679
was it didn't fit his hunting style, so he wasn't

1011
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,440
known to rome. He when he was not injured, he

1012
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,159
would sit still. So he also had a bum knee,

1013
00:55:55,159 --> 00:55:57,480
so it really doesn't make sense that he would go

1014
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:02,880
stamping around. And you know, the while the terrain is rugged,

1015
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,000
it's not featureless. Like I said earlier, there's trails, roads,

1016
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,920
you got the river nearby, those are all navigational anchors.

1017
00:56:10,039 --> 00:56:11,719
He would have been able to find his way back

1018
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,920
to camp, especially if he was only fifty yards away.

1019
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,400
And it's been sixteen years without finding a single item

1020
00:56:19,519 --> 00:56:23,840
of gear in a very recreationally active area of the forest,

1021
00:56:24,639 --> 00:56:28,679
that's a pretty extraordinary thing that nothing has been found. Now,

1022
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,119
that doesn't mean someone didn't find a bow and just

1023
00:56:31,199 --> 00:56:31,559
kept it.

1024
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:34,519
Speaker 2: I was saying, if you find it and just kept

1025
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:36,480
it and just said like, oh, good find.

1026
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,639
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean though it's kind of risky just keeping

1027
00:56:39,639 --> 00:56:42,719
a firearm that you randomly find because you don't know

1028
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:43,800
what was done with that.

1029
00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you definitely, because I think there is protocol to

1030
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:49,480
like bringing it to a station and if no one

1031
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:50,599
claims that you can get it.

1032
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:53,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, or if they run it and it comes back clean.

1033
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:55,440
Because the worst thing it could happen for you if

1034
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,960
you pick up a just a random firearm you find

1035
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:01,000
is that firearm was used to commit a serious crime

1036
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:04,320
and then you're found in possession of said firearm. Now

1037
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,039
you are the suspect of that crime. Yeah, and the

1038
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:10,840
people who come and get you don't know you. Yeah.

1039
00:57:11,119 --> 00:57:13,800
So that's a good piece of device for anyone who

1040
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,239
may ever find a random firearm in the woods immediately

1041
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,800
turn into the closest law enforcement. Yes, people because you

1042
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:27,000
do not want to. Maybe don't touch it, get your

1043
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,920
prints all over it. Do the thing they do in

1044
00:57:29,039 --> 00:57:30,000
CSI pick it up.

1045
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,079
Speaker 2: With od or something and like put your yeah, pick

1046
00:57:32,119 --> 00:57:34,679
it up with a pencil, put it in a bag

1047
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:35,159
or something.

1048
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: The worst thing that could happen to you is you

1049
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,519
get framed for a crime that you didn't do. But

1050
00:57:39,559 --> 00:57:45,000
you yourself have the smoking gun in your possession. So yeah, yeah, no,

1051
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:49,039
And now these are the not likely so voluntary disappearance

1052
00:57:49,719 --> 00:57:52,800
the family we Joe read what the daughter said about

1053
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,280
making plans for the future. Yeah, he left his money,

1054
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,719
id G GPS in his car, he had an injured knee,

1055
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,559
but there was no evidence by police that show him

1056
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:03,400
that he would do this, and he hadn't been he

1057
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,880
hasn't been cited in sixteen years. So and finally, the

1058
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,719
most interesting one that's not likely is the Pekos triangle,

1059
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,079
which is a paranormal theory.

1060
00:58:12,159 --> 00:58:15,559
Speaker 2: Another triangle. Yes, there's always tryinggle. I think we might

1061
00:58:15,599 --> 00:58:17,480
have to do an episode on it. In the paphost triangle.

1062
00:58:17,599 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 3: Okay. Some attribute the disappearance to energy Vortex's portals, skin walkers,

1063
00:58:23,559 --> 00:58:27,159
or even alien abductions fueled by the cluster of disappearances

1064
00:58:27,199 --> 00:58:32,000
in the broader Pekost Wilderness and local folklore about strange

1065
00:58:32,039 --> 00:58:34,239
lights and electromagnetic anomalies.

1066
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 2: Ooh, I feel like we called them off the deep ends.

1067
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:39,760
Maybe we should call them the politest possibility.

1068
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,519
Speaker 3: The politest possibility is all the things that are not likely.

1069
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the politest possibility aliens and skin walkers.

1070
00:58:48,239 --> 00:58:53,719
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, So obviously, why this theory doesn't work is

1071
00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:57,320
it you know, an equal or greater number of people

1072
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,599
have gone missing and or have been found dead in

1073
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:04,199
the wilderness is just nearby, especially the Black Range and

1074
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,679
the Menzano Mountains, So the Pecos Wilderness is certainly not

1075
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,639
the leader in disappearances in this area. The clustering effect

1076
00:59:11,679 --> 00:59:15,920
is likely a product of media media attention, particularly the

1077
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:21,440
Missing form one, rather than genuine statistical anomalies. And Alan

1078
00:59:21,679 --> 00:59:28,360
Parcheco's investigation Elk Mountain reported equipment malfunctions, so Geiger counter camera,

1079
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,639
cell phones malfunctioning, which her so this is a guy

1080
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:35,039
who believes in the triangles. So he attributed this to

1081
00:59:35,199 --> 00:59:40,559
possible energy fields, but skeptics noted that equipment routinely fails

1082
00:59:40,559 --> 00:59:45,679
in rugged, remote mountainous terrain, which is common and not remarkable.

1083
00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, especially like when I go boundary waters with

1084
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,639
a real compass, there's so much iron. Yeah, it can

1085
00:59:51,679 --> 00:59:54,440
throw off the measurement. Yeah, and you know cell phones,

1086
00:59:54,519 --> 00:59:56,719
that's like the whole thing of like close your eyes

1087
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,800
and how many things are red in the room. Now

1088
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,519
open them and now that now look around and close

1089
01:00:01,559 --> 01:00:03,159
your eyes. It's like, if you're looking for it, you're

1090
01:00:03,159 --> 01:00:03,760
going to see it.

1091
01:00:04,159 --> 01:00:07,079
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well and okay, and the final theory was then

1092
01:00:07,159 --> 01:00:10,599
his hunting friends were involved, and this was dismissed right away.

1093
01:00:11,159 --> 01:00:15,199
Both hunters were actually thoroughly investigated and cleared. There was

1094
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,880
no motive ever identified for why his friends would want

1095
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,840
to kill him, and the family, who obviously thinks it's

1096
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,880
foul played, never pointed a finger at his friends, So yeah,

1097
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,559
they were cleared pretty early on. That wasn't them. So

1098
01:00:29,559 --> 01:00:32,840
so where are you landing? Are you landing? And fall play? Honestly,

1099
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,519
for this one, I think based on that the history

1100
01:00:36,559 --> 01:00:41,719
of the area and just the fact that he was

1101
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,360
so close to camp and he had a bad leg,

1102
01:00:46,559 --> 01:00:48,840
so he was not like he was going to wander away,

1103
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,639
and his whole style of hunting was he went to

1104
01:00:51,719 --> 01:00:54,760
a spot and sat there. He didn't move around a lot,

1105
01:00:55,159 --> 01:00:56,800
and that was when he didn't have a bum That

1106
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:58,519
was when he didn't have a bum leg. And yeah,

1107
01:00:58,719 --> 01:01:02,400
so he's probably more likely to not move around with

1108
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,880
his bad leg. He almost didn't even go on the

1109
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:05,719
hunt because of his.

1110
01:01:06,039 --> 01:01:07,679
Speaker 2: And his blind was back in the car and he

1111
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,760
ate the sandwich. Yeah, Like so he must like picked

1112
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,880
it up, and you're not going to go to your

1113
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,000
blind to hunt he has darkness is coming. No, it

1114
01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:19,960
sounded more like he was going to clean up his spot. Yeah,

1115
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,639
and it for all intents and purposes he did, because

1116
01:01:23,639 --> 01:01:27,039
if it was deconstructed back in his jeep with some food, Like,

1117
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,760
I feel like he was at the jeep and something happened.

1118
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 3: I do too, because he you know, he had the

1119
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,800
half eaten sandwich was still there, So that to me

1120
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:39,599
feels like he got back to his truck, put everything away.

1121
01:01:39,679 --> 01:01:42,480
He was hungry, he was having dinner, and then while

1122
01:01:42,519 --> 01:01:44,159
he was eating something happened.

1123
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 2: And the other guys weren't at camp, they weren't back.

1124
01:01:47,039 --> 01:01:48,119
It wouldn't have seen anything.

1125
01:01:48,199 --> 01:01:51,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like you said, that's why the scent dogs

1126
01:01:51,599 --> 01:01:54,840
didn't keep picking up scent further out because he only

1127
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,679
went fifty yards out then came back. Yeah, I feel

1128
01:01:57,679 --> 01:02:00,599
like he got picked up. Yeah, and now that's interesting

1129
01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:04,480
that whoever picked him up didn't rob him. I guess

1130
01:02:04,519 --> 01:02:07,039
they took his guns and his bow, but that's yeah,

1131
01:02:07,119 --> 01:02:10,440
they left as I guess his wallet and stuff in

1132
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,920
the car. But yeah, that's interesting. They didn't do any

1133
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,840
skinwalkers maybe don't care about monetary Yeah, maybe not. They

1134
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,679
you know, they didn't forensically sweep the truck, so they

1135
01:02:21,679 --> 01:02:23,519
don't know if they're prints on it. That's kind of

1136
01:02:23,519 --> 01:02:25,480
the thing there. It's like it's where they might have

1137
01:02:25,519 --> 01:02:28,800
blown it. And if it's a highly trafficked area, they're

1138
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,159
not going to necessarily be able to pinpoint specific tracks

1139
01:02:32,519 --> 01:02:33,159
on a vehicle.

1140
01:02:33,239 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, if there's other people over the mountain. Yeah,

1141
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,400
and for what it sounded like during hunting season, it's

1142
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:39,159
heavily traffic.

1143
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 3: But then what is the motive for why they would

1144
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:41,679
take him?

1145
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 2: So this is pure speculation, So please don't get mad,

1146
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,679
But that's not possible, Like we're guessing here.

1147
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.

1148
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I like I don't know, Like maybe like

1149
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,719
someone was dawn off and they started you know, some

1150
01:02:57,199 --> 01:02:58,119
you can get into it.

1151
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it could have been a dumb thing maybe

1152
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:04,079
like drug runners or gun runners were driving by and

1153
01:03:04,199 --> 01:03:05,679
he said something, yeah, like.

1154
01:03:05,639 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 2: Maybe they're driving fast to slow down they like are

1155
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,679
just a little punks. Yeah, and they got out and yeah,

1156
01:03:11,119 --> 01:03:14,400
oh really slowed out. Yeah, just some stupid interaction. That's

1157
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:16,320
kind of like, that's what my gut's telling me. It

1158
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,000
was just like some dumb thing where like wrong place,

1159
01:03:19,079 --> 01:03:23,119
wrong time. Not saying he's cocky or anything, but like

1160
01:03:23,199 --> 01:03:25,239
he's Tae Kwano, so he's probably not going to back

1161
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,360
down from an aggressive thing, especially if he's got a firearm.

1162
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,960
Like maybe it's if someone's like showing up. He's probably

1163
01:03:33,159 --> 01:03:35,760
probably a tough dude and he's not going to back down,

1164
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,719
and it might have just went sideways. That's that was

1165
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,320
like my gut. The other thing would be in this

1166
01:03:42,599 --> 01:03:45,000
because the dogs not finding a scent. I'm like, maybe

1167
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,079
he did accidentally wander off when he got too dark

1168
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:48,960
and was going the wrong way, But then it's like

1169
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:49,719
what the dogs?

1170
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 3: Why would the scent stop? Yeah, so that's where I

1171
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:52,639
don't know.

1172
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 2: I'm like think fil play, but I can't think of

1173
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:59,719
a great reason why, Like just a really terrible situation.

1174
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,519
Speaker 3: Where they didn't find any illicit drug growing operations in

1175
01:04:03,559 --> 01:04:07,679
the area when they were searching, and they didn't find that.

1176
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,800
There was no sign of a struggle, So it's not

1177
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,519
like he was shot or stabbed or something at his

1178
01:04:12,559 --> 01:04:14,480
truck and then taken because they would have found blood.

1179
01:04:14,599 --> 01:04:17,159
Speaker 2: They didn't mention any like big life insurance policies or

1180
01:04:17,199 --> 01:04:19,920
anything like that. So like that's see, that's where nothing

1181
01:04:20,199 --> 01:04:22,960
else fits. And that also kind of doesn't fit, but

1182
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:23,960
it fits the most.

1183
01:04:24,119 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 3: All I can think of is there was some unsavory

1184
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,320
type people coming down the road and there was some

1185
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,400
type of altercation off probably off of some just stupid

1186
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:38,760
like hey, slow down or something like that, and they

1187
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,639
got out and it escalated to the point where I

1188
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:47,519
don't know, ne'er do wells near doells. But again, if

1189
01:04:47,559 --> 01:04:50,280
you're drug running, gun run, and why are you going

1190
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,079
to waste your time kidnapping a random dude?

1191
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:55,599
Speaker 2: And then that's where I don't think. I don't think

1192
01:04:55,639 --> 01:04:58,280
it's an organized thing. I think it is a passion

1193
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,840
spur of the moment, maybe a little out of hand.

1194
01:05:01,199 --> 01:05:03,960
Like so here, let me paint a picture. It starts

1195
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,760
as something small, Yeah, maybe he can be a hot

1196
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,320
head a little bit. You know, some people have their moments.

1197
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,199
I've had a hot head moment. I'm a very calm

1198
01:05:11,239 --> 01:05:13,679
individual usually, but if someone rubs me the wrong way

1199
01:05:13,719 --> 01:05:16,840
and just the wrong time, Like what if he's got

1200
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,440
his gun, he flashes his gun. Yeah, like and then

1201
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,519
they and they it escalates or they flash their gun

1202
01:05:22,559 --> 01:05:25,760
and it's kind of all of a sudden, spirals knew

1203
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,280
a thing where maybe they kill him and now they're panicking.

1204
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,039
They load him in a car and drive off. I

1205
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:32,960
don't know, like there wasn't blood it found. There wasn't

1206
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,440
like signs of a scuffle or anything. But you know,

1207
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,320
I don't know, Like that's that's all I can think of,

1208
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:42,159
is just some weird crazy.

1209
01:05:41,119 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 3: It has to be something weird like that, because I

1210
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,199
just don't see him walking very far, like out of

1211
01:05:47,239 --> 01:05:48,039
the search area.

1212
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I like, it's stuck in my head

1213
01:05:51,239 --> 01:05:52,760
that he was removed from there.

1214
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,719
Speaker 3: I mean, it honestly sounds like he went back to camp. Yeah,

1215
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:58,840
like he was out hunting and then he came back,

1216
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,079
was eating a sandwich and something happened. Yes, I'm like,

1217
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:08,039
and it's a little shocking that the police didn't lean

1218
01:06:08,079 --> 01:06:10,400
into that more right away.

1219
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 2: They probably didn't think of it as like as like

1220
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,199
a crime as a crime crime scene. Yeah, they probably went, oh,

1221
01:06:16,239 --> 01:06:19,280
he's missing, and they probably took it as that most

1222
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,079
of the time. And then but I feel like to

1223
01:06:22,159 --> 01:06:26,559
the daughter's point, now it's too late that everything's contaminated.

1224
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,039
Speaker 3: Wouldn't you maybe because we talk about these types of

1225
01:06:29,079 --> 01:06:31,599
cases every week. I feel like if I was an

1226
01:06:31,639 --> 01:06:33,800
investigator showing up and they're like, okay, yeah, this guy

1227
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:36,960
in his sixties, bad leg. He walked fifty yards off trail.

1228
01:06:37,719 --> 01:06:39,880
It appears he came back to his truck, was eating,

1229
01:06:40,679 --> 01:06:45,440
and then midway through a sandwich is gone, Yeah, Like hmm.

1230
01:06:45,519 --> 01:06:48,679
Speaker 2: I think we we do have a bias towards yeah,

1231
01:06:48,719 --> 01:06:51,039
because even like the off the deep end stuff, it's like,

1232
01:06:51,119 --> 01:06:54,480
because we're doing a show, this is for entertainment, It's

1233
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:57,639
it's like for us, you know, we're gravitating towards the

1234
01:06:57,719 --> 01:06:59,960
more pomp and circumstance.

1235
01:07:00,159 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 3: I feel like we're pretty grounded in our theories.

1236
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 2: Though we are pretty grounded, but I mean like it

1237
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,280
is like that's why we we temper it when we

1238
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:07,280
say off the deep end.

1239
01:07:07,679 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 3: But still like in a case like this. Okham's razor says, it's.

1240
01:07:11,639 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 2: Probably not an abduction and the thing because like that's

1241
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,039
really out there, but like it seems like that makes

1242
01:07:18,039 --> 01:07:20,960
the most sense, so I'm leaning that way. But really, maybe.

1243
01:07:20,719 --> 01:07:24,079
Speaker 3: He got something like he got an elk, but it

1244
01:07:24,119 --> 01:07:28,559
didn't fall and he went after it. Yeah, and that's

1245
01:07:28,599 --> 01:07:30,960
where And maybe the scent dog was bad that day. Yeah,

1246
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,599
maybe it was bad and he the elk went towards

1247
01:07:33,679 --> 01:07:36,320
the river. He got there with his bad leg, he slipped,

1248
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,039
fell in and his body got carried miles away. Yeah,

1249
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,159
I don't know that. I didn't even think of that

1250
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:47,760
because I mean, if he got an elk, maybe he

1251
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,239
was a bad shot that day and didn't it wasn't

1252
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:50,840
a kill shot.

1253
01:07:51,599 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 2: It is even if it is, you gotta let a

1254
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,960
bleed out, it's gonna go down, it's gonna go to ground.

1255
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,679
Speaker 3: But a lot of times they will walk a distance

1256
01:08:00,679 --> 01:08:03,119
before they go down exactly, and the hunter will follow

1257
01:08:03,199 --> 01:08:07,039
after it and wait. So maybe he went in the

1258
01:08:07,039 --> 01:08:11,440
woods after it after a kill. But you think that

1259
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,800
during the search they would find a massive elk that

1260
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,920
was with an arrow in it, especially, Yeah, especially with

1261
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,439
all the trails and stuff. Yeah, and if he had

1262
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,600
shot an elk, there would be blood and after.

1263
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 2: His friends are shooting warning shots and he's lost and he's.

1264
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,079
Speaker 3: So that's an interesting thing. When they shot that did

1265
01:08:31,079 --> 01:08:34,880
the two shots? They did? Hear two shots in the distance. Yeah,

1266
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,840
and they weren't able to verify who that was or so,

1267
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:42,079
I mean could see that could be him and Melcam's razor.

1268
01:08:42,199 --> 01:08:45,520
Is he just he shot an elk, it walked off,

1269
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,600
he went after it and something happened.

1270
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe that was him responding, but they couldn't

1271
01:08:51,079 --> 01:08:52,159
ascertain his position.

1272
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I don't know.

1273
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,239
Speaker 2: I think it's funny because, as we always say, the

1274
01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:00,319
show ends the same way, but it's always different.

1275
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1276
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 2: But thanks again for tuning into our show. We appreciate

1277
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,479
you all for listening and sharing locations unknown with your

1278
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,600
friends and family. Be sure to like us and follow

1279
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:10,960
us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube, where you can

1280
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,399
find the videos of each episode. Also, if you'd like

1281
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,319
to support us monetarily, please visit our website or Facebook

1282
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:19,600
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1283
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:23,479
subscribe to a Patren account on YouTube, on Apple, anywhere

1284
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,119
where you have access to subscriptions for additional shows for

1285
01:09:26,199 --> 01:09:30,079
paid customers only. And lastly, when enjoying the beauty of nature,

1286
01:09:30,119 --> 01:09:33,880
whether backpacking, camping, or simply taking a walk, always remember

1287
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,720
to leave no trace. Thanks and we will see you

1288
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:37,760
all next time.