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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott and this

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<v Speaker 1>is La Not So Confidential, the Forensic Psychology and True

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<v Speaker 1>Crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>In each episode, we explore the intersection of psychology, the

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<v Speaker 2>criminal justice system, and entertainment.

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<v Speaker 1>Today, our episode is on the forensic psychtopics of conduct disorder,

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<v Speaker 1>antisocial personality disorder, and psychopathy.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back, everybody. We're so glad you're back for this

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<v Speaker 2>episode that Doctor Shiloh and I have been wanting to

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<v Speaker 2>do for a very long time. We're circling back around

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<v Speaker 2>to an element of mental health disorders that we've talked

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<v Speaker 2>about in the past that are integrally intertwined with criminal behavior.

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<v Speaker 2>So sit back, there's going to be a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>information coming at you, and please be patient with my

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<v Speaker 2>stronger Southern accent than usual. I have relatives visiting this week.

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<v Speaker 2>That's funny. It is Patage's. We were shopping last night

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<v Speaker 2>out at the Farmer's Market and eating at one of

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<v Speaker 2>the restaurants and this woman at the table turned to

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<v Speaker 2>me and said, where are you from. You're not from here,

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<v Speaker 2>And it's like nobody has commented on my accent in

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<v Speaker 2>a long time. So like I lived down the street. Baby,

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<v Speaker 2>Literally I'm literally two blocks from your room.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, like, oh, okay, you're good now you're talking like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But everyone, for the locals, for the travelers, we have

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<v Speaker 2>a Los Angeles Not So Confidential live event on Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>April eleventh, twenty twenty five. So if you're listening to

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<v Speaker 2>this in the far flung future, know that it's twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five that we're really looking forward to. So there'll

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<v Speaker 2>be more information on the website, on our social media.

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<v Speaker 2>Please put that in your calendars if you'd like to

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<v Speaker 2>join us. It's going to be a lot of fun.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we've also started the process of planning a

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<v Speaker 2>summer tour with our favorite tour guide Chris, who is

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<v Speaker 2>Off the Hook fantastic, and this time, instead of being

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<v Speaker 2>in downtown Los Angeles, we're going to be on the famous,

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<v Speaker 2>the fabulous and quite formidable Sunset Strip. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff to talk about on the Sunset Strip.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of stuff, and I was also thinking,

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<v Speaker 1>there's so many cool places to go and eat or

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<v Speaker 1>grab a drink before and after. Oh yeah, yeah, we

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<v Speaker 1>just got to pick a date for that, but we'll

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<v Speaker 1>want to do that during the summertime in the evening,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's great weather and all the craziness of Hollywood

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<v Speaker 1>is at your fingertips exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we can get the West Hollywood Shriff's Department

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<v Speaker 2>to sit in with us and tell some of the

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<v Speaker 2>stories of what they had to deal with. I can

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<v Speaker 2>tell some stories of the ride alongs I went on

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<v Speaker 2>when I was with Sheriff's Department. All right, just doctor Shiloh,

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<v Speaker 2>please catch us up on the last episode.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, everyone. In our last episode, we had a really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting live conversation with Justin Evans of Generation Why and

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<v Speaker 1>of course his solo podcast, The Peripheral. We always have

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<v Speaker 1>great discussions with Justin in person, and the last time

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<v Speaker 1>that we were all together, we decided it's worth taking

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<v Speaker 1>a look back at Matthew Perry's death and really drilling

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<v Speaker 1>down and looking at the cause of death along with

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<v Speaker 1>the stigma that comes from deaths where substances are involved,

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<v Speaker 1>and then even peeling back another layer of looking at

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<v Speaker 1>the ways in which we as consumers and the media

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<v Speaker 1>try to understand these deaths when a celebrity is involved

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<v Speaker 1>versus a non celebrity, which we really just don't ever

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<v Speaker 1>hear about it. Touched on so many poignant topics. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's really becoming one of my favorite behind the

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<v Speaker 1>couch conversations we've ever had. And we've had some really

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<v Speaker 1>great responses.

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<v Speaker 2>We've had a lot of great behind the couches, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've had a lot of great responses on this particular episode.

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<v Speaker 2>And I would agree with you, and I would even

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<v Speaker 2>add on that those conversations we were having were not

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<v Speaker 2>only about we as consumers versus the media, but all

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<v Speaker 2>three of us as content creators, sure are involved in

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<v Speaker 2>this conversation. And it's complex, and you know, it gets

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<v Speaker 2>people riled up. People want to get very concrete about

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<v Speaker 2>this very very complex issue, you know, and it requires

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<v Speaker 2>critical thinking in the same way that really being an

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<v Speaker 2>informed consumer of true crime content really should require us

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<v Speaker 2>to be critical thinkers about where did this person come from? Again,

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<v Speaker 2>as I always say, because I always go back to wicked,

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<v Speaker 2>was she born this way? Or did the world kind

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<v Speaker 2>of do this to her? Or what's the lens that

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<v Speaker 2>we're looking through from week to week, from year to

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<v Speaker 2>year or decade to decade as we look back on

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<v Speaker 2>some of these things. So, yeah, thank you for mentioning that.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you haven't had a chance to listen to it, Folks,

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<v Speaker 2>please go back and give it a listen or give

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<v Speaker 2>it a watch on YouTube.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that you've been quoting Wicked since the beginning

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<v Speaker 1>of our podcast and then now it's like back in

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<v Speaker 1>a huge.

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<v Speaker 2>Thing, I know, and in a way that I enjoyed

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<v Speaker 2>because I was really like kind of holding like I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if it's going to be that good, and

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<v Speaker 2>then I enjoyed it so much because there was so

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<v Speaker 2>much that was drawn from the book, which is very,

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<v Speaker 2>very dark. And even my husband Dan, who is like

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<v Speaker 2>he's a big Broadway person, but this was not one

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<v Speaker 2>of his favorite shows, but he turned after the movie.

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<v Speaker 2>He goes, well, now everything makes sense, like I understand

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<v Speaker 2>the backstory and blah blah blah, But I digress. We're

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<v Speaker 2>not talking about Wicked. We are talking about dunda dun

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<v Speaker 2>du attachment disorders and the intersection of personality disorders. So, folks,

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<v Speaker 2>over the past seven and a half years, we've spoken

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<v Speaker 2>pretty expansively about this intersection between personality disorders and crime

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<v Speaker 2>and whether or not those personality disorders are full blown

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<v Speaker 2>or just certain flavors yeah, or like an ish of

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<v Speaker 2>a ish like you know, kind of like a Lacroix

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<v Speaker 2>fizzy water, right, Yeah, you know, you're drinking a lemon

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<v Speaker 2>fizzy water and it's like you're drinking bubbles and somebody

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<v Speaker 2>is whispering lemon from two blocks away, right exactly. But

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<v Speaker 2>those flavors can actually have a huge impact on the

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<v Speaker 2>way that we as individuals interact with the world around us.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course we always want to refer to the

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<v Speaker 2>most recent and validated research on our particular areas of

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<v Speaker 2>work and interest and discussion here on the show. So

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<v Speaker 2>we're following up on our previous episode about attachment disorders

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<v Speaker 2>and how they're entangled with so many of the behaviors

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<v Speaker 2>and the presentations of personality disorders. If you haven't had

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<v Speaker 2>a chance to listen to that two part episode, because

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<v Speaker 2>of course we over researched and we just did so much,

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<v Speaker 2>we couldn't burden people with a three hour episode, please

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<v Speaker 2>go back and get that under your belt before diving.

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<v Speaker 1>Into this week's Yes, and just as a trigger warning

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<v Speaker 1>for this week, this episode includes discussions of sexual assault, murder,

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<v Speaker 1>and self mutilation.

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<v Speaker 2>Any aficionado of the true crime genre is well acquainted

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<v Speaker 2>with some of the high profile criminals that clearly have

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<v Speaker 2>strong diagnostic critters are for antisocial personality disorder. We all

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<v Speaker 2>know Ted Bundy, notorious serial killer who displayed many ASPD

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<v Speaker 2>traits including manipulation, deceit, and a clear lack of remorse.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's the fascinating case of Richard Kuklinsky, also known

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<v Speaker 2>as the Iceman, and he was a contract killer with

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<v Speaker 2>documented ASPD traits including aggression and emotional detachment. But many

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't necessarily immediately assume that a wealthy financial adviser would

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<v Speaker 2>fit the bill as well. But Bernie Madoff was a

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<v Speaker 2>white collar criminal who ran the largest Ponzi scheme in

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<v Speaker 2>known history, exhibiting traits like deception and exploitation. So back

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<v Speaker 2>to wicked. Is it nature or nurture? Did they emerge

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<v Speaker 2>from the womb with full on ASPD wiring? Well, the

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<v Speaker 2>good thing is that we have clinical research on the

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<v Speaker 2>relationship between attachment styles and personality disorders, and it has

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<v Speaker 2>been extensively studied, particularly in the last two decades. What

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<v Speaker 2>has emerged from this research is significant correlations that expand

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<v Speaker 2>and deepen our understanding of psychopathology. The overwhelming drive for

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<v Speaker 2>criminal activity, there's a direct relationship between the role of

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<v Speaker 2>early attachment experiences in the development of these conditions, and

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<v Speaker 2>if you listen to the last episode, you know that

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<v Speaker 2>disorganized attachment patterns can significantly impair, affect or emotional regulation

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<v Speaker 2>as well as contribute to the development of personality disorders

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<v Speaker 2>like ASPD, although borderline personality disorder has also shown to

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<v Speaker 2>be quite prominent as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, but we are not going to follow down that

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<v Speaker 1>yellow brick road today. We're going to stick with really

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of a journey here down a very dark

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<v Speaker 1>path for sure. But when we ponder back on all

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<v Speaker 1>of the disrupted attachments that we discovered in those episodes

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<v Speaker 1>episode one ninety nine, no we keep referencing them and

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<v Speaker 1>also think about personality disorders, it seems obvious that there's

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<v Speaker 1>a trajectory there and that we need to touch on

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<v Speaker 1>some other crossovers in diagnosing and phenomenon in forensic psychology

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<v Speaker 1>and frankly, things that we've been covering since episode two

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<v Speaker 1>of this podcast when we go all the way back

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<v Speaker 1>and look at our first episodes on psychopathy. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>stick with childhood behavior and parse out conduct disorder first

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<v Speaker 1>before tying this into an adult personality disorder and beyond.

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<v Speaker 1>Conduct disorder is a mental health condition that affects children

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<v Speaker 1>and teens that's characterized by a consistent pattern of aggressive

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<v Speaker 1>behaviors and actions that harm the well being of others.

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<v Speaker 1>Children with conduct disorder also often violate rules and societal norms,

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<v Speaker 1>and conduct disorder lies on a spectrum of disruptive behavioral disorders,

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<v Speaker 1>which also includes oppositional defiant disorder, which is something different,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're going to stay on track here. So again,

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<v Speaker 1>conduct disorder only affects children and adolescents. It can have

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<v Speaker 1>early onset before the age of ten, but commonly develops

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<v Speaker 1>an adolescents, which is up to nineteen years old. In

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<v Speaker 1>this case, the condition is more common in male children

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<v Speaker 1>than female children, and the average age of presentation is

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<v Speaker 1>ten to twelve years in males and then a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit later fourteen to sixteen years in females. So conduct

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<v Speaker 1>disorder affects anywhere between two and ten percent of children

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<v Speaker 1>and adolescents in the United States. I think it's important

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<v Speaker 1>to ask here what is the difference between conduct disorder

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<v Speaker 1>and personality disorders, just to make sure we're all on

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<v Speaker 1>the same page. So a personality disorder is a mental

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<v Speaker 1>health condition that involves long lasting disruptive patterns of thinking

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<v Speaker 1>as well as behavior as well as mood, and then

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<v Speaker 1>how that all relates to others, like how is that

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<v Speaker 1>impacting negatively impacting the people around them. Most personality disorders

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<v Speaker 1>begin in the teen years, when obviously personality is further

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<v Speaker 1>developing and maturing, and as a result, almost all people

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<v Speaker 1>diagnosed with personality disorders are above the age of eighteen. Traditionally,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't want to label them prior to that. One

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<v Speaker 1>exception to this is antisocial personality disorder, in that approximately

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<v Speaker 1>eighty percent of people with this disorder started to show

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<v Speaker 1>symptoms by the age of eleven. So let's put a

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<v Speaker 1>pin in that we will come back to antisocial personality disorder.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's the one that we start to see very

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<v Speaker 1>very early, hence conduct disorder.

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<v Speaker 2>So what are the signs and the symptoms of conduct disorder?

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<v Speaker 2>So characteristic behaviors of conduct disorder develop gradually over the time.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just like a kid wakes up and has

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<v Speaker 2>this radical change in behavior. If that happens, you get

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<v Speaker 2>your kid to a doctor immediately, right, Because a radical

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<v Speaker 2>change of behavior is usually having to do something neurological

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<v Speaker 2>trauma or medical so definitely not that in this situation.

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<v Speaker 2>Children with conduct disorder tend to be impulsive and difficult

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<v Speaker 2>to manage, and research has shown that individuals with these

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<v Speaker 2>traits have abnormalities in the way their brain processes moral

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<v Speaker 2>decision making, even at the pre high school level. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>so they're already seeing a very different way of how

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<v Speaker 2>this child is walking through the world from an early age.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't seem to be concerned about the feelings of

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<v Speaker 2>other people, and many times in retrospect when parents are

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<v Speaker 2>being interviewed, they will say, I knew something was different

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<v Speaker 2>about my child. I knew something was off. So the

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<v Speaker 2>four core behaviors of conduct disorder include aggression towards people

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<v Speaker 2>in animals or like. The way we use the typical

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<v Speaker 2>term in diagnostic criteria is violating others basic rights, so

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<v Speaker 2>violating their bodily autonomy, violating their property, their personal space,

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. Point two is destruction of property.

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<v Speaker 2>Point three is deceiving, lying and or stealing, and point

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<v Speaker 2>four is serious violation of rules. So signs of aggressive

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<v Speaker 2>behavior towards other include bullying, physical violence, potentially even with

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<v Speaker 2>a weapon as a child, verbal fights, threatening, forcing sexual activity,

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<v Speaker 2>and blaming others for their own behavior, as well as

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<v Speaker 2>hurting animals. Going on to that second point we've discussed

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<v Speaker 2>just now was signs of the destruction of property will

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<v Speaker 2>include intentionally setting fires and vandalizing or purposely destroying other

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<v Speaker 2>people's property. Point three, signs of deceiving and lying and

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<v Speaker 2>stealing would include lying to get a favor or to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid responsibilities, stealing from individuals or from retail establishments, or

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<v Speaker 2>going so far as to break into houses or businesses.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the signs of the violation of rules would

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<v Speaker 2>include breaking rules without a clear reason. So part of

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<v Speaker 2>the development through the teen years is breaking rules. You're

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<v Speaker 2>learning to be your own individual, but there's usually a

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<v Speaker 2>reason for it. Well, I wanted to go out, so

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<v Speaker 2>that's why I snuck out my window. But breaking rules

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<v Speaker 2>without a clear reason is just it's almost like they're

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<v Speaker 2>seeking a form of stimulation for an area of feeling

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<v Speaker 2>that is just not working. Like other kids also can

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<v Speaker 2>be exhibited by not going to school, which we call

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<v Speaker 2>truancy here in the US, running away from home, or

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<v Speaker 2>frequently breaking any rules set by their parents.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's other common signs of conduct disorder that don't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily fit neatly into those other categories. But you can

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<v Speaker 1>see heavy alcohol use, substance use, engaging in frequent or

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<v Speaker 1>risky types of sexual behavior, becoming easily frustrated or making

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<v Speaker 1>no effort at all to hide their aggressive behaviors is

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<v Speaker 1>what we see as well. And then comes the not

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<v Speaker 1>showing remorse for those things. So you have the behaviors,

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<v Speaker 1>but then we're starting to see the personality, the affect

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<v Speaker 1>piece of it. And another key component you know we

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<v Speaker 1>always look holistically when we're doing an assessment is looking

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<v Speaker 1>at those social relationships, and these individuals tend to have

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<v Speaker 1>a difficulty making and maintaining friendships. It is important to

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<v Speaker 1>note that, like you touched on, occasional rebellious behavior is

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<v Speaker 1>very common during childhood and adolescens, with studies showing that

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<v Speaker 1>like fifty to eighty percent of youth engage in some

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<v Speaker 1>form of something we could label as antisocial behavior during

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<v Speaker 1>their development, but only a small percentage ever meet the

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<v Speaker 1>criteria for disorders like conduct disorder. We're talking like some

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<v Speaker 1>studies on the low end one point eight percent and

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<v Speaker 1>then some studies going up onto the high end of

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<v Speaker 1>like sixteen percent. So the signs and symptoms that lead

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<v Speaker 1>to the diagnosis of conduct disorder demonstrate a disruptive and

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<v Speaker 1>repetitive pattern, and the previously described types of actions violate

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<v Speaker 1>again those rights of others and fall under that category

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<v Speaker 1>of quote unquote antisocial behavior.

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<v Speaker 2>So all of this research doesn't exactly point to one

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<v Speaker 2>specific exact cause of the disorder, but as you have

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<v Speaker 2>probably guessed, it seems to be a complex combination of genetic, biological,

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<v Speaker 2>and environmental factors. And we're going to emphasize here complex combination.

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<v Speaker 2>So genetic or biological factors, various studies have shown that

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<v Speaker 2>certain characteristics of conduct disorder can be inherited, and that

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<v Speaker 2>would include some of the antisocial behaviors, the impulsivity, the

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<v Speaker 2>temperament changes, aggression, and the insensitivity to punishment. That's a

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<v Speaker 2>really big one. Insensitivity to punishment as well as l

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<v Speaker 2>testosterone levels that are associated with aggression. Traumatic brain injury, seizures,

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<v Speaker 2>and neurological damage of course can all contribute to aggression

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And then when it comes to the parental, familial and

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<v Speaker 1>environmental factors, we're talking some really interesting statistics where the

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<v Speaker 1>research shows that parents of adolescents with conduct disorder have

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<v Speaker 1>often engaged in substance use in antisocial behaviors themselves. They're

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<v Speaker 1>also frequently diagnosed with ADHD, mood disorders, schizophrenia, or antisocial

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<v Speaker 1>personality disorder. We also sometimes see a home environment that

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<v Speaker 1>lacks structure and adequate supervision with frequent conflicts between the parents,

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<v Speaker 1>and then that can lead to maladaptive behavior in the children,

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<v Speaker 1>which can then go on to be associated with conduct disorder.

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<v Speaker 1>We also see that in children that are exposed to

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<v Speaker 1>frequent domestic violence are more likely to develop conduct disorder.

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<v Speaker 1>And then living in low social and economic environments with

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<v Speaker 1>overcrowding and unemployment leads to economic and social stress. With that,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say that and then coupled with the lack

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<v Speaker 1>of adequate parenting, can be breeding ground as well for

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<v Speaker 1>conduct distorts or so we just know that conduct disorder

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<v Speaker 1>ends up impacting more children living in low economic environments

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<v Speaker 1>than not. We also see the availability of drugs and

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<v Speaker 1>increase crime in a child's neighborhood then can increase their

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<v Speaker 1>risk of developing conduct disorder. So, having said all that again,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really important to note that conduct disorder can occur

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<v Speaker 1>in children from very high functioning quote unquote healthy families

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe aren't experiencing some of these things as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're bringing up some really interesting stuff. I want

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<v Speaker 2>to clarify something that in households with high acees adverse

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<v Speaker 2>childhood experiences which may or may not be the result

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<v Speaker 2>of intended abuse on the physical, sexual, or emotional level.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, some households just have problems because life throws

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<v Speaker 2>problems at us, right, But what you will see is

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<v Speaker 2>that you can see some kids acting out in anger

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<v Speaker 2>because of the situation they're in that have nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>do with conduct disorder or have nothing to do with

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<v Speaker 2>oppositional defiant disorder. You can also see children come from

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<v Speaker 2>really really adverse situations who go on to be highly

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<v Speaker 2>highly highly successful people and hyper independent from a very

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<v Speaker 2>young age, which is not always a good thing. Success

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<v Speaker 2>is good, I mean, I'm certainly not going to downplay

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<v Speaker 2>how good it is to be successful and be able

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<v Speaker 2>to support your family and maybe increase your quality of lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 2>But sometimes we have to take into account that kids

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<v Speaker 2>that are placed with way too much responsibility and way

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<v Speaker 2>too many adult activities of daily living before they are

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<v Speaker 2>developmentally ready for it, they're going to be cash in

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<v Speaker 2>that check that their parents wrote for them many years later,

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00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:42.720
<v Speaker 2>and that's why a lot of people end up in

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00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:45.920
<v Speaker 2>therapy actually is trying to disentangle that stuff. So that

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<v Speaker 2>was just like a little side note I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>put in there so that we make sure that we're

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<v Speaker 2>not shaming families that have situations out of their control.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there's the panoply or the spectrum of human

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<v Speaker 2>behavior and development. It's very very wide and very very complex.

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<v Speaker 2>Prognosis or the long term outlook for conduct disorder really

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<v Speaker 2>really depends on how early the condition developed and if

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<v Speaker 2>it was treated. So usually the disruptive behaviors of conduct

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<v Speaker 2>stop during early adulthood, but in about one third of

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00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.799
<v Speaker 2>the cases they will continue. In many of these cases

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00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>will meet the criteria for antisocial personality disorder or certainly,

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<v Speaker 2>like we were saying, an ish a flavor, a shadow

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<v Speaker 2>early onset of the condition before ten years of age

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<v Speaker 2>is associated with a much poor long term prognosis and

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<v Speaker 2>is strongly associated with a significant decline in school performance.

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<v Speaker 2>So again, really important stuff for people out there that

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<v Speaker 2>are fascinated by true crime and the history of the

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00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.960
<v Speaker 2>people who commit these crimes. Looking at that factor, these

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<v Speaker 2>kypes of behaviors before the age of ten, decline in

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<v Speaker 2>school performance. Those are things to watch out for. It

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<v Speaker 2>just means that, like in that moment, the chemicals in

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<v Speaker 2>their head are creating a storm that's going to have

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<v Speaker 2>long term impact on that child's life. Depression and bipolar

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<v Speaker 2>disorder may also develop in the teen years in early adulthood,

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<v Speaker 2>and suicidal ideation can be a complication because of these conditions,

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<v Speaker 2>It's important to get your child immediate medical care if

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<v Speaker 2>they're talking about or threatening suicide. Don't shut down the conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>Continue the conversation, let your child know that they are

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<v Speaker 2>being heard, but also seek outside help.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's look at a case study here just to round

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<v Speaker 1>out conduct disorder to highlight what this looks like in

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<v Speaker 1>real life. Michael Perry was diagnosed with conduct disorder in

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<v Speaker 1>the eighth grade. His early life was marked by behavioral issues,

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<v Speaker 1>including truancy and theft, and despite interventions, his antisocial behavior escalated,

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<v Speaker 1>leading to his involvement in serious crimes, eventually including murder.

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<v Speaker 1>So raised in Texas, Mary's childhood had significant instability, as

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<v Speaker 1>well as financial struggles and some family dysfunction. Background research

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<v Speaker 1>and police report suggest that his parents had a strained relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>and his upbringing lock structure and discipline. Perry exhibited behavioral

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<v Speaker 1>issues from an early age, engaging in petty crimes and

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<v Speaker 1>showing some early signs of conduct disorder.

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<v Speaker 2>According to Perry's confession, in two thousand and one, he

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<v Speaker 2>and his friend Jason Aaron Burkett conspired to steal two

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<v Speaker 2>vehicles from the parents of Adam Stottler, a seventeen year

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<v Speaker 2>old acquaintance. The very poorly planned crime went south when

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<v Speaker 2>Burkett approached the Stoutler residence, knocked on the front door

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<v Speaker 2>and asked to use the phone. Meanwhile, Perry, armed with

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<v Speaker 2>a shotgun, entered through the back door via the garage

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<v Speaker 2>and concealed himself in the laundry room. Sandra Stottler, Adam's mother,

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<v Speaker 2>opened the back door, Perry emerged from his hiding place

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<v Speaker 2>and shot her in the side. As she fell and

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<v Speaker 2>attempted to rise, Perry then shot her again, fatally wounding her.

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<v Speaker 2>Perry and Burkette then loaded her body into the back

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<v Speaker 2>of the truck and dumped the body in a nearby lake,

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<v Speaker 2>Attempting to hide their crime. The two immediately left to

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<v Speaker 2>pick up Kristin Willis, another friend from work, and then

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<v Speaker 2>returned to the Stotler home. Later, Adam Stottler and his

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<v Speaker 2>friend Jeremy Richardson arrived Unaware of what had transpired, Burkett

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<v Speaker 2>and Perry lured them into a wooded area under the

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<v Speaker 2>false pretense that a friend had been shot and needed help.

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<v Speaker 2>Once they were deep in the woods, Burkett shot and

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<v Speaker 2>killed both Adam and Jeremy. The group then returned to

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<v Speaker 2>the Stottler home before heading to a bar to continue

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<v Speaker 2>their night.

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<v Speaker 1>So Two days later, law enforcement attempted to stop Perry

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<v Speaker 1>for a traffic violation, and he sped off from the stop,

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<v Speaker 1>leading to a dangerous high speed police chase. When he

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<v Speaker 1>was finally apprehended, he attempted to conceal his identity by

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<v Speaker 1>providing authorities with Adam Stoutler's identity, as he had just

399
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.480
<v Speaker 1>happened to have Stottler's wallet on him. After these crimes,

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00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:58.880
<v Speaker 1>Parry was taken into custody, but released on bail. A

401
00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:02.440
<v Speaker 1>few days later. He and Burquette soon found themselves in

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00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:07.319
<v Speaker 1>trouble again. While driving a stolen car, he again attempted

403
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.319
<v Speaker 1>to evade law enforcement, but ended up crashing into a

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<v Speaker 1>deputy Sheriff's vehicle. Their final escape attempt ended with both

405
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.519
<v Speaker 1>men being arrested while hiding in a nearby apartment complex.

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<v Speaker 1>The shotgun used in Sandra Stotler's murder was discovered at

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<v Speaker 1>the scene, along with forensic evidence linking Perry to the crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Perry was charged with Sandra Stotler's murder, and the forensic

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<v Speaker 2>evidence from Crater Lake, the wooded crime scene, and the

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00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:34.240
<v Speaker 2>Stotler residents aligned with his confession. During the trial, Perry

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00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:38.039
<v Speaker 2>completely asserted in about face and recanted his confession statement,

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<v Speaker 2>claiming that he was coerced by law enforcement. The jury

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00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.079
<v Speaker 2>found this defense unconvincing and he was convicted. He was

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<v Speaker 2>then executed by lethal injection in Texas on July first,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty ten. His accomplice, Jason Burkett, was tried separately, convicted

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<v Speaker 2>of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison. So

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<v Speaker 2>this particular example really does high light light that not

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<v Speaker 2>following the rules, impulsivity, lack of judgment, lack of insight

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<v Speaker 2>into what's going to happen. As we've talked about on

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<v Speaker 2>this show before, when people engage in high speed chases,

421
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:16.079
<v Speaker 2>there's one of maybe a few things one is drugs

422
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:19.160
<v Speaker 2>may be involved, Like they may be so impaired by

423
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.720
<v Speaker 2>the use of drugs that they're really not thinking it through,

424
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:24.319
<v Speaker 2>or they know they're at the end of their rope

425
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.799
<v Speaker 2>and that there's no choice left, so why not turn

426
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:30.200
<v Speaker 2>it into like sort of a shot for glory, Or

427
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.240
<v Speaker 2>they actually think that they may be able to get away,

428
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.480
<v Speaker 2>so that lack of sort of intellectual functioning in that

429
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:40.480
<v Speaker 2>moment they're actually getting high. It takes so much to

430
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:45.759
<v Speaker 2>get a person with the wiring for ASPD to get

431
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:48.160
<v Speaker 2>them stimulated in the way that you or I might

432
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.039
<v Speaker 2>be able to get stimulated from something that we find enjoyable.

433
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.559
<v Speaker 2>They will go to these extreme ends without insight or

434
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 2>judgment into what the consequences are going to be.

435
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely, And that was a very heavy case study,

436
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:03.400
<v Speaker 1>but you know one where we're able to find where

437
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:07.400
<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator did have this conduct disorder diagnosis. And I

438
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.640
<v Speaker 1>think you know, with that extreme example, many of you

439
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:13.960
<v Speaker 1>are probably thinking, well, maybe conduct disorder is sounding a

440
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:18.880
<v Speaker 1>lot like antisocial personality disorder or even psychopathy, especially after

441
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:24.039
<v Speaker 1>that example. And yes, ASPD is the adult version of

442
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.519
<v Speaker 1>conduct disorder. If you know, we want to frame it

443
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:30.039
<v Speaker 1>that way, there's not that much difference between conduct disorder

444
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:34.839
<v Speaker 1>and ASPD, and in fact, conduct disorder is essentially a

445
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:39.079
<v Speaker 1>point criteria for ASPD. There needs to be evidence of

446
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.839
<v Speaker 1>conduct disorder before the age of fifteen for somebody to

447
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:48.559
<v Speaker 1>meet full criteria for antisocial personality disorder, along of course,

448
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.839
<v Speaker 1>with the pervasive pattern of deviating from social norms on

449
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.079
<v Speaker 1>their own and then the functional impairment that that disorder

450
00:26:55.640 --> 00:27:00.200
<v Speaker 1>causes to the adult's life. But it's estimated to affect

451
00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:05.160
<v Speaker 1>between point six percent and three point six percent of adults,

452
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:08.920
<v Speaker 1>and it's three times more common among men than women,

453
00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:14.440
<v Speaker 1>and individuals with antisocial personality disorder often also have co

454
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:20.599
<v Speaker 1>occurring mental health conditions such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder,

455
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.119
<v Speaker 1>and or substance use disorders.

456
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, we've talked a lot about AESPD on this show

457
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.559
<v Speaker 2>in various forms, so we thought it's maybe time to

458
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.039
<v Speaker 2>give a little historical perspective as to how this diagnosis

459
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.960
<v Speaker 2>has been shaped over the years. In the nineteenth century,

460
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>British physician William Pritchard used the term moral insanity to

461
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.079
<v Speaker 2>describe individuals who engaged in antisocial behaviors. Now we're starting

462
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.960
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteenth century, although you can go back as

463
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.599
<v Speaker 2>far as like a great example is a book The

464
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Killer of Little Shepherds is a great example of something

465
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:55.119
<v Speaker 2>that was happening in the sixteenth century, you know, which

466
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:58.400
<v Speaker 2>is frightening. But the research and the naming and the

467
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:02.599
<v Speaker 2>nomenclature really started around this time. So Richard believed these

468
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.519
<v Speaker 2>individuals lacked a moral compass, and that in itself has

469
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.480
<v Speaker 2>continued to be a key characteristic of what we now

470
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:14.519
<v Speaker 2>find and call antisocial personality disorder. So it's a complex

471
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:18.359
<v Speaker 2>disorder that's been difficult for psychiatrists and psychologists to really

472
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.880
<v Speaker 2>fully understand. However, doctor Daniel Goodwin and doctor Samuel Hughes

473
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.799
<v Speaker 2>provided a clear definition in their book Psychiatric Diagnosis. They

474
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:34.240
<v Speaker 2>described ASPD as a persistent pattern of socially irresponsible, exploitative,

475
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:40.680
<v Speaker 2>and guiltless behavior that affects many areas of life, including family, school, work,

476
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and relationships. But that description is just an illustration of

477
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:48.680
<v Speaker 2>symptoms which may actually arise from a number of complex

478
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:53.319
<v Speaker 2>and interwoven factors. The symptoms of ASPD exist on a spectrum,

479
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.119
<v Speaker 2>ranging from relatively mild behaviors like lying and cheating to

480
00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:01.559
<v Speaker 2>much more severe actions like violent crime, including rape and murder.

481
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:04.079
<v Speaker 1>The work of doctor Lee Robbins in the nineteen fifties

482
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:08.759
<v Speaker 1>and sixties was instrumental in shaping the diagnostic criteria for ASPD,

483
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 1>which were included in the DSM three in nineteen eighty

484
00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.079
<v Speaker 1>and refined of course in later editions. According to the

485
00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:20.200
<v Speaker 1>DSM five, a person must meet the following conditions to

486
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:24.279
<v Speaker 1>be diagnosed with ASPD. We have the point of a

487
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 1>minimum of three out of seven pathological traits such as deceitfulness, impulsivity, aggression, recklessness,

488
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.480
<v Speaker 1>and irresponsibility. Another point, as we mentioned just a little

489
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.720
<v Speaker 1>bit ago, is they have to be eighteen years or

490
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.799
<v Speaker 1>older and showed signs of conduct disorder before the age

491
00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:43.200
<v Speaker 1>of fifteen. We also know that one of the criteria,

492
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.440
<v Speaker 1>which is pretty common, is that these symptoms must not

493
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:48.519
<v Speaker 1>be caused by basically some other diagnosis and specifically here

494
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.119
<v Speaker 1>schizophrenia or mania. So again, ASPD is the only personality

495
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:56.839
<v Speaker 1>disorder in the DSM five that has that age requirement,

496
00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:04.640
<v Speaker 1>which really reflects its chronic nature and the early developmental roots.

497
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it reminds me in my position. Last year, I

498
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.960
<v Speaker 2>had a particularly challenging call to make. I've been working

499
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.000
<v Speaker 2>with a parent about a child referral. This child had

500
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:18.880
<v Speaker 2>engaged in self harm behaviors, was having troubles at school,

501
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.319
<v Speaker 2>but there was nothing acting out against other students. There

502
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:24.839
<v Speaker 2>was no threats of violence, but there was really some

503
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:29.799
<v Speaker 2>significant affect issues and just quality of life issues. And

504
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.359
<v Speaker 2>because of the insurance this family had, the child was

505
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.319
<v Speaker 2>sent to a company here in California that is across

506
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:42.519
<v Speaker 2>the state and they do nothing but psychiatric care, no therapy,

507
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>just psychiatric care and it's all telehealth. Oh jeez, so

508
00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>already you can see some problems and the mom. By

509
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.200
<v Speaker 2>the time I was talking to mom, Mom was just

510
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.599
<v Speaker 2>in tears, Like we were talking to this clinician and

511
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:58.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say what discipline they are, but

512
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:02.599
<v Speaker 2>they were a medical clinician doing these diagnoses. And within

513
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.160
<v Speaker 2>ten minutes of the call talking to the child, the

514
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:09.200
<v Speaker 2>child who was under the age of twelve, the clinician

515
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:11.960
<v Speaker 2>closed his DSM and said, well, I don't have an

516
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.480
<v Speaker 2>adolescent DSM. I don't have that version, just have the adult.

517
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.119
<v Speaker 2>But clearly you have borderline personality disorder what.

518
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.000
<v Speaker 1>So you're like that version doesn't exist because we don't diagnose.

519
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Adolescens exactly, right, So as doctor Shiloh will be the

520
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 2>first to attest doctor Scott can get his southern up.

521
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:36.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, And I'm usually quite professional, but I tracked

522
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:41.240
<v Speaker 2>down this clinician through the office manager and demanded a

523
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:43.720
<v Speaker 2>call back and had to actually kind of threaten that

524
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.160
<v Speaker 2>I was going to report them to the board. And

525
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>I got on the phone. I just let that clinician

526
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.279
<v Speaker 2>have it as like what are you doing? Like how

527
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:55.200
<v Speaker 2>these are the basic rules. You're a psychiatric practitioner of this,

528
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.240
<v Speaker 2>you're supposed to know this, and what harmed you? And

529
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:01.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the person was very surprised because apparently nobody

530
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:04.640
<v Speaker 2>had ever called them on their bullshit. But again, this

531
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.480
<v Speaker 2>is an illustration of how careful we have to be

532
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:13.240
<v Speaker 2>with diagnostic labels, right, And that's why they really have

533
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:20.200
<v Speaker 2>significant and substantial research that has made conduct disorder clearly

534
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:23.160
<v Speaker 2>to be a factor that has to be present for

535
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.359
<v Speaker 2>a real diagnosis of ASPD and none of the other

536
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:27.759
<v Speaker 2>personality disorders have it.

537
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:28.319
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

538
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.960
<v Speaker 2>So as forensic psychologists, doctor Shiloh and I have worked

539
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.680
<v Speaker 2>with a number of people with an ASPD diagnosis, and

540
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:37.799
<v Speaker 2>it is really interesting to note some of the challenges

541
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:41.000
<v Speaker 2>in diagnosis and treatment of the disorder. So psychiatrist doctor

542
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:44.200
<v Speaker 2>David Black states that many of the mental health professionals

543
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:49.160
<v Speaker 2>feel unprepared to treat individuals with ASPD and may then

544
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:53.680
<v Speaker 2>avoid working with them altogether. So outside of forensic psychology,

545
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:57.079
<v Speaker 2>in the prison system or jail system, ASPD is often

546
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:01.279
<v Speaker 2>overlooked by clinicians, which is really concerning a clinician's discomfort

547
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:05.599
<v Speaker 2>with particular traits or behaviors may make that clinician less

548
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:10.319
<v Speaker 2>likely to notice them occurring in non obvious ways, and

549
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:13.920
<v Speaker 2>that's a problem. We can't avoid these things as clinicians

550
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:19.279
<v Speaker 2>and be thoroughly ready to give the public treatment. And

551
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.039
<v Speaker 2>despite being a relatively small percentage of the population, individuals

552
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:28.599
<v Speaker 2>with ASPD have a high significant societal impact. So here's

553
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.160
<v Speaker 2>this sliver of the population that really can impact the

554
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 2>community at large, and we've got a bunch of clinicians

555
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:37.039
<v Speaker 2>that are like, oh no, I don't work with that,

556
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't deal with that. And studies showed that thirty

557
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.839
<v Speaker 2>point six percent to eighty four percent of prison populations

558
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:49.960
<v Speaker 2>meet the criteria for ASPD, with US estimates averaging around

559
00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:54.200
<v Speaker 2>fifty percent within the prison system. But wait, there's more.

560
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.759
<v Speaker 2>As we've said many times on multiple episodes over the years.

561
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:01.480
<v Speaker 2>The most important research regarding personality disorders has emerged over

562
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.119
<v Speaker 2>the past one to two decades, and this is where

563
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:08.840
<v Speaker 2>our understanding of the disorder extended beyond the pretty rigid

564
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.800
<v Speaker 2>framework of nurture into a very complex nexus of both

565
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:15.800
<v Speaker 2>environment and genetics.

566
00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:22.079
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the biological basis of antisocial behavior is again complex,

567
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.800
<v Speaker 1>we're using that word a lot today and it involves

568
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:32.280
<v Speaker 1>a combination of many genetic factors. Brain structure abnormalities, particularly

569
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:36.920
<v Speaker 1>in that prefrontal cortex, as well as imbalances in neurotransmitters

570
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 1>like serotonin and dopamine, and the dysregulation of the autonomic

571
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:46.840
<v Speaker 1>nervous system which often manifests as low arousal levels which

572
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:53.079
<v Speaker 1>can contribute to a predisposition towards antisocial actions and risky behavior. So,

573
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:56.000
<v Speaker 1>as far as the genetics go, just super interesting to

574
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.559
<v Speaker 1>look at. Some of these studies and always fascinating studies

575
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:03.679
<v Speaker 1>on twins and families indicate a significant genetic component to

576
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:09.679
<v Speaker 1>antisocial behavior, suggesting certain genes may predispose individuals to this

577
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:15.480
<v Speaker 1>aggressive or impulsive tendencies and actions. And then when it

578
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.360
<v Speaker 1>comes to the prefrontal cortex, research often points to reduced

579
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:24.360
<v Speaker 1>activity or some structural abnormalities in the prefrontal cortex. That

580
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:30.000
<v Speaker 1>region is really crucial for your decision making, impulsivity, moral reasoning.

581
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.440
<v Speaker 1>So we're either finding that some things just don't light

582
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:36.320
<v Speaker 1>up or the structure is actually different. And then we

583
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:39.440
<v Speaker 1>have the amygdala deep in the middle of your brain,

584
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:44.800
<v Speaker 1>and this area is associated with processing emotions, and dysfunction

585
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:50.239
<v Speaker 1>can lead to difficulty in recognizing or responding to others distress,

586
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:56.639
<v Speaker 1>again potentially contributing to antisocial behavior. And then we have

587
00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:01.519
<v Speaker 1>the anterior singular cortex, and this plays a role in

588
00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:06.320
<v Speaker 1>conflict monitoring and decision making. And so when you have

589
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:11.199
<v Speaker 1>abnormalities in this region, we find that there's more impulsive

590
00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:12.800
<v Speaker 1>behavior related to that.

591
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>So again just kind of looking at a big perspective,

592
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.480
<v Speaker 2>let's back away and look at all four of those

593
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>areas that you just mentioned. Although the amygdala is very

594
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.719
<v Speaker 2>very deep inside the brain, it's part of really one

595
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:28.039
<v Speaker 2>of the most primitive parts of our brain. It's not

596
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.519
<v Speaker 2>later in the evolutionary process, yes, now, but this is

597
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:37.400
<v Speaker 2>a great sort of primer for understanding how impactful traumatic

598
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.159
<v Speaker 2>brain injury can be. So you can take someone who

599
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have any of the structural issues or any of

600
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.760
<v Speaker 2>the wiring, but you cauck them on the head. In

601
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:49.400
<v Speaker 2>these particular areas, a number of times lesions can form

602
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:54.400
<v Speaker 2>and then cause a personality change later in life. So

603
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:56.760
<v Speaker 2>there is the structure issue, but let's look at also

604
00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:00.360
<v Speaker 2>on top of it, this layer of chemical dysfunction. So

605
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:05.159
<v Speaker 2>when we look in sort of the category of neurotransmitters, serotonin,

606
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.440
<v Speaker 2>low serotonin levels have been linked to aggression and impulsivity,

607
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:14.599
<v Speaker 2>potentially contributing to antisocial behavior. Then dopamine, so dopamine dysregulation

608
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.719
<v Speaker 2>is involved in the reward processing centers of our brain,

609
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:22.880
<v Speaker 2>and it can lead to increased sensation seeking and potential

610
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.880
<v Speaker 2>engagement in risky antisocial acts. And then there's the ANS,

611
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:30.079
<v Speaker 2>which is the autonomic nervous system. And there's this theory

612
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 2>which is fascinating called low arousal theory. And some research

613
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:39.360
<v Speaker 2>is now suggesting that individuals with antisocial tendencies exhibit a

614
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:43.880
<v Speaker 2>lower resting heart rate and reduced ANS activity, leading to

615
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.960
<v Speaker 2>a decreased sensitivity to potential negative consequences of their actions.

616
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:52.159
<v Speaker 2>One of the really amazing and frightening sets of studies

617
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:57.320
<v Speaker 2>that this research emerged from was focusing on intimate partner

618
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.320
<v Speaker 2>violence and male abusers of the partners, and what they

619
00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:06.280
<v Speaker 2>noted was that these guys would get so violent, violent,

620
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:09.559
<v Speaker 2>violent against their partners, and yet their heart rates would

621
00:38:09.559 --> 00:38:13.199
<v Speaker 2>barely go up. Yeah, and there's also the cinematic version

622
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.320
<v Speaker 2>of this would be in Silence and the Lambs. When

623
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:19.920
<v Speaker 2>you see doctor Hannibal Lecter, he's you know, sequestered, I

624
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.639
<v Speaker 2>think a piece of a pen, a writing pen, and

625
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:24.719
<v Speaker 2>he's been able to get out of his cuffs and

626
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:27.239
<v Speaker 2>get it out of his restraints, and when his meal

627
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.960
<v Speaker 2>is delivered, he takes down to security guards. But that

628
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:33.440
<v Speaker 2>what they do is they do it in slow motion

629
00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:36.079
<v Speaker 2>to classical music. And I thought that was like, really

630
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:39.880
<v Speaker 2>a great artistic expression because it's actually showing as far

631
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:43.639
<v Speaker 2>as Hannibal Electu's concerned, he's going in slow motion. You know,

632
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:47.199
<v Speaker 2>his system is just down, regulating down, regulating, down, regulating.

633
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:49.159
<v Speaker 2>So fascinating stuff.

634
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it really is, so just you know, important

635
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:56.639
<v Speaker 1>consideration here. Also we have all the other environmental factors

636
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:59.880
<v Speaker 1>that we've talked about, you know, the childhood trauma, the abuse,

637
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:06.480
<v Speaker 1>the social influences. This could also impact antisocial behavior the

638
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:09.960
<v Speaker 1>development of it. But that it is that complex interplay

639
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:13.800
<v Speaker 1>between all of those things. Antisocial behavior is not solely

640
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:18.639
<v Speaker 1>caused by just those biological factors. Those are important, Those

641
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.599
<v Speaker 1>are things that we're learning more and more about every

642
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:26.440
<v Speaker 1>single day, but as well reference again towards the end.

643
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Remember there's a multi legged stool here, so we need

644
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.039
<v Speaker 1>to keep that in mind always.

645
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.960
<v Speaker 2>So Our next case study begins on April twenty eighth,

646
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.440
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety six, when twenty eight year old Martin Bryant

647
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.480
<v Speaker 2>carried out one of the deadliest mass shootings in modern history,

648
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:50.440
<v Speaker 2>killing thirty five people and injuring thirty seven others in

649
00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:55.000
<v Speaker 2>a historic tourist site of Port Arthur, Tasmania. He provided

650
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:58.320
<v Speaker 2>conflicting and confusing accounts of his motivations, with several reports

651
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.719
<v Speaker 2>suggesting that he craved attention and harbored a deep resentment

652
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:07.239
<v Speaker 2>towards those that he felt wronged him. Martin John Bryant

653
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:10.320
<v Speaker 2>was born on May seventh, nineteen sixty seven, in Tasmania, Australia,

654
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.119
<v Speaker 2>to Maurice and Carleen Bryant. He was the eldest of

655
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.119
<v Speaker 2>two children, and later review and interviews with family, friends

656
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:19.800
<v Speaker 2>and neighbors indicated that he displayed odd and troubling behaviors,

657
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:23.239
<v Speaker 2>including violence from an early age. He was also noted

658
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.320
<v Speaker 2>to engage in animal cruelty and bullying of his peers.

659
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:31.159
<v Speaker 2>His family life was characterized by emotional detachment and social difficulties.

660
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:34.320
<v Speaker 2>His father, Maurice, was known as a hard working and

661
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:38.639
<v Speaker 2>quiet man, while his mother, Carlen, was often described in

662
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:42.280
<v Speaker 2>news of the day as strict and emotionally distanced. So

663
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:44.440
<v Speaker 2>let's be careful. We're not going to go in the

664
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:49.599
<v Speaker 2>direction of schizophrenagenic mom shaming. That's not a thing again,

665
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:54.800
<v Speaker 2>even if it's been since nineteen ninety six, beginning in

666
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.719
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty seven with his birth, the passage of time

667
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.280
<v Speaker 2>and the perspective of what we do to win, and

668
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I feel like we have to just look through this

669
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:04.800
<v Speaker 2>through a very careful lens. But I just wanted to

670
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:07.159
<v Speaker 2>share with you so people didn't think that we were

671
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:11.880
<v Speaker 2>leaving things out intentionally. Bryant's mother stated in a twenty

672
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:14.960
<v Speaker 2>eleven interview that when he was very young, she described

673
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:19.559
<v Speaker 2>him as annoying and a different child, and often surrounded

674
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:23.400
<v Speaker 2>by toys that he had intentionally broken. This is interesting

675
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:26.159
<v Speaker 2>to me because on one hand, the media is saying

676
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.719
<v Speaker 2>that she was cold and distant, and then this can

677
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:31.639
<v Speaker 2>also feel like we need to talk about Kevin. Yeah,

678
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:35.199
<v Speaker 2>which is Kilda Swinton in that wonderful role in the movie,

679
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:39.119
<v Speaker 2>which I know. The book portrays the mother's character as

680
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:42.360
<v Speaker 2>having some of her own antisocial tendencies as oh, oh, okay,

681
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.079
<v Speaker 2>got it, but in the movie it's portrayed as she

682
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:48.239
<v Speaker 2>just keeps trying to get the doctors to talk to

683
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:50.719
<v Speaker 2>her about her son, trying to get her husband to

684
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.880
<v Speaker 2>acknowledge that these behaviors are there, and it's all falling

685
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:54.679
<v Speaker 2>on deaf ears.

686
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.920
<v Speaker 1>So as a child, Brian struggled academically and socially. At

687
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:02.760
<v Speaker 1>an early age, was diagnosed with an IQ of sixty six,

688
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:07.239
<v Speaker 1>which is considered in the range of intellectual disability. He

689
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:11.280
<v Speaker 1>was placed in special education classes, where he continued to

690
00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:15.800
<v Speaker 1>have mental health and behavioral challenges. Teachers that were later

691
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:20.719
<v Speaker 1>interviewed offered that Bryant often displayed in appropriate emotional responses,

692
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:25.119
<v Speaker 1>sometimes laughing at situations that were serious or even distressing,

693
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:31.840
<v Speaker 1>while also exhibiting sudden outbursts that included violence and that

694
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:35.400
<v Speaker 1>then made him an outcast among his peers. He was

695
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:39.000
<v Speaker 1>reported to have pulled a snorkel from another child's face

696
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 1>while they were diving and cutting down trees on a

697
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.119
<v Speaker 1>neighbor's property. So we're already seeing a couple of those

698
00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.199
<v Speaker 1>prongs that we looked at with conduct disorder and then

699
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:55.039
<v Speaker 1>antisocial personality disorder. Bryan's behavior became increasingly problematic as he

700
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:59.119
<v Speaker 1>grew older, with multiple referrals to professionals for psychiatric treatment

701
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:03.199
<v Speaker 1>and it age seventeen, a psychologist described him as quote

702
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:08.320
<v Speaker 1>mentally retarded with signs of a severe personality disorder end quote.

703
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:12.119
<v Speaker 2>So despite his low intellectual capacity, his poor social skills,

704
00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:18.360
<v Speaker 2>and ongoing emotional instability, he was able to financially sustain himself,

705
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:23.400
<v Speaker 2>coming from disability pension provided by the Australian government. And then,

706
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.880
<v Speaker 2>in this very very strange turn of events, Bryant became

707
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:31.519
<v Speaker 2>friends with an eccentric, wealthy heiress named Helen Harvey, and

708
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:35.480
<v Speaker 2>after becoming her gardener, the local authorities discovered that both

709
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Harvey and her elderly mother were actually in need of

710
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:41.400
<v Speaker 2>medical care, so Bryant and his father cleaned up the

711
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:44.760
<v Speaker 2>dilapidated mansion for the patron to return from the hospital,

712
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.159
<v Speaker 2>and in nineteen eighty seven, Bryant was invited allegedly to

713
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:52.559
<v Speaker 2>move into her lavish home, where she gave him a

714
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:58.920
<v Speaker 2>very extravagant lifestyle, purchasing him expensive clothing and cars and

715
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:02.199
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of things, and also allowing him to live

716
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:05.880
<v Speaker 2>without any responsibilities. And his father later noted to authorities

717
00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:10.440
<v Speaker 2>that he was always worried about Bryant's emotional and physical rages,

718
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:15.559
<v Speaker 2>so the avoidance of which required his family basically just

719
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 2>to walk around on eggshells. They all avoided confrontation with

720
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:22.320
<v Speaker 2>him from an early age because he would go into

721
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:25.159
<v Speaker 2>these rages, and his father went on to say that

722
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:30.000
<v Speaker 2>on numerous occasions throughout his childhood, Bryant would threaten to

723
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:35.159
<v Speaker 2>go out and shoot people up. So in nineteen ninety two, Harvey,

724
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:38.280
<v Speaker 2>his benefactor, died in a car accident, leaving Bryant as

725
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:42.400
<v Speaker 2>the sole beneficiary of her will, providing him a mansion

726
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:47.360
<v Speaker 2>and assets worth over a million dollars. However, Bryant's mother,

727
00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:51.840
<v Speaker 2>concerned about his inability to manage finances, was successful in

728
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:55.400
<v Speaker 2>petitioning the courts to place his assets under a guardianship,

729
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:59.880
<v Speaker 2>giving legal trustees controls over his finances.

730
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:04.000
<v Speaker 1>To travel extensively, both with in Australia and internationally with

731
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.119
<v Speaker 1>his newfound wealth, but continued to struggle with social interactions

732
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:12.119
<v Speaker 1>due to his odd behavior. His instability to form meaningful

733
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:17.159
<v Speaker 1>relationships or integrate into society led to growing frustrations and

734
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.679
<v Speaker 1>to his deepening resentment and anger. On April twenty eighth,

735
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:23.559
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety six, Bryant armed himself and went on a

736
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:26.960
<v Speaker 1>shooting spree. His victims included a couple who purchased a

737
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.800
<v Speaker 1>property he had wanted. He then made his way to

738
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Apport Arthur Historic site and opened fire indiscriminately on tourists

739
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.039
<v Speaker 1>and staff. The attack continued as he fled the scene,

740
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:42.079
<v Speaker 1>continuing to shoot people along the way, before finally barricading

741
00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:46.400
<v Speaker 1>himself at Seascape Guesthouse, the scene of his initial murder.

742
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:49.480
<v Speaker 1>He then held police at bay for eighteen hours with

743
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:53.079
<v Speaker 1>the hostage that he later killed. He was sentenced to

744
00:45:53.159 --> 00:45:56.880
<v Speaker 1>thirty five life sentences without the possibility of parole, and

745
00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:59.599
<v Speaker 1>the horrific crime ended up being a turning point in

746
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:03.199
<v Speaker 1>Australia gun laws. In response to the tragedy, the Howard

747
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:08.480
<v Speaker 1>government swiftly implemented sweeping gun control measures, including a ban

748
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:12.320
<v Speaker 1>on semi automatic rifles and high capacity shotguns. As well

749
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.480
<v Speaker 1>as a mandatory gun buyback program that led to the

750
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:20.079
<v Speaker 1>destruction of over six hundred and forty thousand firearms, and

751
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:24.920
<v Speaker 1>stricter firearm licensing and registration laws. These changes remained some

752
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:28.039
<v Speaker 1>of the strictest gun laws in the world, with of

753
00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:32.480
<v Speaker 1>course ongoing debates about their effectiveness. However, Australia has not

754
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.519
<v Speaker 1>experienced another mass shooting on the scale of Port Arthur

755
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:40.480
<v Speaker 1>since these laws were enacted. So, if one keeps chugging

756
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:44.480
<v Speaker 1>down this track that we're on from conduct disorder to

757
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:51.719
<v Speaker 1>antisocial personality disorder, we eventually get to psychopathy. And not literally,

758
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:54.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't mean that one always leads to the other

759
00:46:54.760 --> 00:46:58.639
<v Speaker 1>or to the worst disorder, but if it does, this

760
00:46:58.679 --> 00:46:59.760
<v Speaker 1>is sort of the end of the road.

761
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:00.880
<v Speaker 2>This is the last stop.

762
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:05.239
<v Speaker 1>So, as we've said before, this is conduct disorder or

763
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:07.719
<v Speaker 1>ASPD on steroids.

764
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.400
<v Speaker 2>So just doing a quick recap since we literally have

765
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:13.920
<v Speaker 2>been talking about this topic since episode two. Psychopathy is

766
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:17.320
<v Speaker 2>again not a personality disorder per se, and it's not

767
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:22.000
<v Speaker 2>listed in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.

768
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:27.880
<v Speaker 2>But psychopathy is related to antisocial behavior and the diagnosis

769
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:34.079
<v Speaker 2>of ASPD, but with additional traits like chronic manipulation, impulsivity,

770
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:38.159
<v Speaker 2>lack of empathy, and high risk taking tendencies. So while

771
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:41.519
<v Speaker 2>psychopathy is relatively rare in the general population at less

772
00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:45.320
<v Speaker 2>than one percent, studies suggests that up to twenty percent

773
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.599
<v Speaker 2>of prison populations meet the criteria and they are responsible

774
00:47:48.679 --> 00:47:53.519
<v Speaker 2>for around fifty percent of serious crimes. So, again adding

775
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:57.800
<v Speaker 2>into the science behind all this, recent research, advances in

776
00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:01.719
<v Speaker 2>brain imaging and genetics have resulted in studies that confirm

777
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:06.400
<v Speaker 2>that psychopathic traits can be inherited, appearing as early as

778
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:11.400
<v Speaker 2>childhood and persisting into adulthood with environmental factors such as abuse,

779
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:15.639
<v Speaker 2>and like I said earlier, high level acees playing apart

780
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:18.480
<v Speaker 2>acees being adverse childhood experiences.

781
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:24.039
<v Speaker 1>So remember that three legged stool of brain differences, genetic markers,

782
00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:28.719
<v Speaker 1>and then severe childhood abuse being the formula for psychopathy

783
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:32.719
<v Speaker 1>as we know it today. Scientists have identified specific genes

784
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:37.000
<v Speaker 1>that may contribute to antisocial and psychopathic tendencies, especially those

785
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:41.119
<v Speaker 1>linked to dopamine, serotonin, and stress response systems. One of

786
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:46.920
<v Speaker 1>the most studied is MAOA, a gene involved in regulating neurotransmitters,

787
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:51.400
<v Speaker 1>so individuals with a low activity version of this gene

788
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:56.840
<v Speaker 1>combined with the stressful or abusive upbringing have been found

789
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:59.639
<v Speaker 1>to be at a higher risk for aggression and criminal behavior.

790
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.519
<v Speaker 1>And then you throw some different brain structure on top

791
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:06.199
<v Speaker 1>of that and you have a diagnosis, and then you

792
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:11.199
<v Speaker 1>have a recipe for psychopathy. So although we cannot diagnose,

793
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:15.599
<v Speaker 1>there is a very well established assessment tool, the Hair

794
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:21.599
<v Speaker 1>Psychopathy Checklist revised, that can categorize an individual as psychopathic

795
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:25.400
<v Speaker 1>if they receive a score of thirty or above on

796
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:29.159
<v Speaker 1>the traits listed on that tool. Okay, so getting into

797
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:33.719
<v Speaker 1>a case study for psychopathy. This case is also from Australia.

798
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:37.679
<v Speaker 1>Gary David was diagnosed with a personality disorder and additionally

799
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:43.239
<v Speaker 1>labeled quote with psychopathic traits at age thirteen. David's childhood

800
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.360
<v Speaker 1>was filled with criminal activities and violent behaviors. His persistent

801
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:52.480
<v Speaker 1>antisocial conduct led to multiple incarcerations and highlighted the severe

802
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:58.039
<v Speaker 1>implications of untreated conduct disorder. Gary David was actually Gary

803
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Webb in nineteen fifty four and had an incredibly rough

804
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:06.079
<v Speaker 1>start to his life. His father, Rupert David, was a

805
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:09.760
<v Speaker 1>career criminal and known pedophile who spent much of his

806
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.719
<v Speaker 1>life in and out of prisons, as well as psychiatric institutions.

807
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.920
<v Speaker 1>His mother, Betty David, struggled with alcoholism, leaving young Gary

808
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:21.480
<v Speaker 1>and his siblings to care for themselves, which resulted in Gary,

809
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:25.159
<v Speaker 1>at the age of four, along with his siblings, being

810
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:29.320
<v Speaker 1>removed from their home and placed into an orphanage, really

811
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:32.239
<v Speaker 1>marking the beginning of a childhood that was spent in

812
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:37.199
<v Speaker 1>the system. He to this developmental period was instability and

813
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:42.119
<v Speaker 1>the abuse he experienced while being shuffled between orphanages, boys' homes,

814
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:45.639
<v Speaker 1>and detention centers. By age eleven years old, he was

815
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:50.039
<v Speaker 1>already committing minor crimes, including larceny and fraud. However, his

816
00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:54.440
<v Speaker 1>behavior quickly escalated into more serious offenses, including making threats

817
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.480
<v Speaker 1>and acts of violence. At thirteen years old, he was

818
00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:02.119
<v Speaker 1>diagnosed with a personality disorder with psychopathic traits, a label

819
00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:05.320
<v Speaker 1>that would follow him for the rest of his life.

820
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:08.079
<v Speaker 2>As a young adult. Between nineteen seventy six and nineteen

821
00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:11.559
<v Speaker 2>eighty four, he was admitted to psychiatric facilities on eight

822
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:15.880
<v Speaker 2>different occasions. Again, he was diagnosed with ASPD, but with

823
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:20.159
<v Speaker 2>a significant difference. They noted he exhibited extreme and frequent

824
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.920
<v Speaker 2>self harm behaviors, including ingesting razor blades, various forms of

825
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.519
<v Speaker 2>self mutilation and swallowing corrosive liquids. The attending psychiatric staff

826
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:31.840
<v Speaker 2>saw these acts where were a mix of self destructive

827
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:36.960
<v Speaker 2>and manipulation due to their occurrences often coinciding when he

828
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.519
<v Speaker 2>felt ignored or when he felt mistreated. In nineteen eighty two,

829
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:43.400
<v Speaker 2>he attempted to rob a pizza restaurant and Rye, Victoria,

830
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:46.840
<v Speaker 2>but the attempt quickly escalated into a violent shootout, with

831
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:50.400
<v Speaker 2>both the shop owner and a responding officer both being

832
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:53.519
<v Speaker 2>severely wounded. David himself was shot in the legs while

833
00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:57.239
<v Speaker 2>trying to escape. This robbery seemed less about money and

834
00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:01.440
<v Speaker 2>more about creating chaos, as some believe that David's goldmins

835
00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:05.559
<v Speaker 2>event was to orchestrate a police shootout. Following his arrest,

836
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.239
<v Speaker 2>he was sentenced to fourteen years in prison for attempted murder,

837
00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:11.639
<v Speaker 2>with the continuing of many of his previous expressions of

838
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.880
<v Speaker 2>self harm or violent outburst orchestrated again in the prison

839
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:21.159
<v Speaker 2>system against both staff peers and himself. These behaviors made

840
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.519
<v Speaker 2>him a major security risk, and prison officials often struggled

841
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:26.519
<v Speaker 2>with how to manage him.

842
00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:29.840
<v Speaker 1>During his incarceration, David spent much of his time writing

843
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:35.360
<v Speaker 1>elaborate manifestos about massacres and violent revenge. His works contained

844
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.519
<v Speaker 1>scenarios that came off like horror movie cliches, while others

845
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.679
<v Speaker 1>were actually far more chilling in their reality based planning,

846
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:49.559
<v Speaker 1>including bombing public buildings, assassinating politicians, poisoning water supplies, and

847
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:53.440
<v Speaker 1>mass shootings in crowded areas. One question about these writings,

848
00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:56.599
<v Speaker 1>David claimed they were part of a therapy exercise and

849
00:52:56.719 --> 00:53:00.880
<v Speaker 1>not actual plans. By nineteen ninety, govern ment health officials

850
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:04.800
<v Speaker 1>officially declared David mentally ill, which then led to a

851
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:09.000
<v Speaker 1>legal battle over his psychiatric status. Under the Mental Health

852
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Act of nineteen eighty six, and again this is in Australia,

853
00:53:12.519 --> 00:53:15.519
<v Speaker 1>David had the right to appeal his diagnoses, which he

854
00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:18.880
<v Speaker 1>did multiple times, and in May of nineteen ninety a

855
00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:22.000
<v Speaker 1>review board ruled that he was not mentally ill, arguing

856
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:26.719
<v Speaker 1>that quote a personality disorder was not classified as a

857
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:31.079
<v Speaker 1>mental illness under the law. So this decision, as you

858
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:34.519
<v Speaker 1>can imagine, spark controversy as many believe David was a

859
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:36.559
<v Speaker 1>clear danger to society.

860
00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:40.960
<v Speaker 2>This is a really great example of where law needs

861
00:53:41.079 --> 00:53:44.960
<v Speaker 2>to integrate their understanding of mental health a lot better

862
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.840
<v Speaker 2>than they do. That is something that is ongoing to

863
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:51.079
<v Speaker 2>this day in the court systems across this country. You know,

864
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:53.840
<v Speaker 2>we're not trying to say that mental health diagnosis is

865
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:57.000
<v Speaker 2>a get out of jail free card at all, but

866
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:00.800
<v Speaker 2>it really does require sort of a more expansive and

867
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:05.880
<v Speaker 2>less less narrow focus on how the judicial system approaches this.

868
00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:08.559
<v Speaker 2>So on June eleventh, nineteen ninety three, at the age

869
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:12.320
<v Speaker 2>of thirty eight, Gary David died by suicide in prison.

870
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.760
<v Speaker 2>He ingested razor blades, which caused severe internal injuries, leading

871
00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:20.320
<v Speaker 2>to peritonitis. By the time of his death, he had

872
00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:24.039
<v Speaker 2>spent thirty three years of his life in various institutions,

873
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:29.000
<v Speaker 2>prisons and psychiatric facilities. David's case left a lasting impact

874
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.519
<v Speaker 2>on Australia's mental health and criminal justice systems. His life

875
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:36.159
<v Speaker 2>raised very difficult questions about how to handle individuals with

876
00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:40.440
<v Speaker 2>extreme personality disorders who do not fit the traditional definitions

877
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:44.320
<v Speaker 2>of mental illness but still pose a danger to society.

878
00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:48.360
<v Speaker 2>His violent fantasies and erratic behavior spark debates about risk management,

879
00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:51.599
<v Speaker 2>involuntary hospitalization, and criminal responsibility.

880
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:54.079
<v Speaker 1>So, I mean, I know that was a quick recap,

881
00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:56.199
<v Speaker 1>but we've also talked about it a lot, and here

882
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:58.960
<v Speaker 1>we've kind of taken this journey again from the previous

883
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:02.320
<v Speaker 1>two episodes of looking attachment disorders and now how that

884
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:07.679
<v Speaker 1>crosses over into personality disorders, so conduct disorder for people

885
00:55:07.719 --> 00:55:11.639
<v Speaker 1>under the age of eighteen, then antisocial personality disorders for adults,

886
00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:14.280
<v Speaker 1>and then the daddy of them all, psychopathy. But we

887
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:17.000
<v Speaker 1>want to also touch on a little branch off here

888
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:21.559
<v Speaker 1>and back in episode one sixty four, way back in

889
00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:23.840
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three. I couldn't believe it when I looked

890
00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.679
<v Speaker 1>at when this episode was that it was a leg

891
00:55:26.599 --> 00:55:30.639
<v Speaker 1>But we focus solely on the subject of childhood psychopathy.

892
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:34.000
<v Speaker 1>We are not going to give you another episode to review,

893
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:35.360
<v Speaker 1>but I'm sure a lot of you remember it and

894
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:37.119
<v Speaker 1>it's there if you guys want to go back. But

895
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.559
<v Speaker 1>we wanted to sort of recap some of the main

896
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:43.199
<v Speaker 1>points because it dovetails nicely into here when we talk

897
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:48.199
<v Speaker 1>about how some of these are exhibited and formed in childhood.

898
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:53.159
<v Speaker 1>So we have to remember that general misconceptions and cultural

899
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:59.719
<v Speaker 1>influences in society have long misunderstood childhood behavior, labeling children

900
00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:04.559
<v Speaker 1>as both innocent and evil. And then there has always

901
00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:09.079
<v Speaker 1>been these unrealistic societal expectations that make extreme behaviors and

902
00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:13.639
<v Speaker 1>children more shocking or a topic to kind of latch onto,

903
00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:17.880
<v Speaker 1>like think about the super predator fallacy. So we just

904
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.079
<v Speaker 1>we want to kind of lay that foundation first. Again,

905
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:26.119
<v Speaker 1>diagnosing personality disorders before age eighteen is not standard, but

906
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:32.360
<v Speaker 1>early behaviors can really indicate future concerns, and many behaviors

907
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:36.400
<v Speaker 1>linked to psychopathy are likely to stem from that third

908
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:41.639
<v Speaker 1>leg of trauma neglect or the adverse environments.

909
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Drilling down into the prevalence in children. Just to the stats,

910
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:49.519
<v Speaker 2>about one percent of children may exhibit callous and unemotional

911
00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:53.559
<v Speaker 2>traits in their environment response. And then the DSM five

912
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:58.519
<v Speaker 2>now recognize callous and unemotional traits to be a better

913
00:56:58.599 --> 00:57:02.400
<v Speaker 2>assessment of risk factor. And over fifty studies now confirmed

914
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:06.880
<v Speaker 2>that see you traits in children are highly predictive of

915
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:10.679
<v Speaker 2>future criminality. Again, we now have the benefit of years

916
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:15.639
<v Speaker 2>and years of data to really process and look forward

917
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:18.559
<v Speaker 2>to predict. So if we look at this as the

918
00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:25.679
<v Speaker 2>three factor model of psychopathy development, we have first genetic predisposition, nature,

919
00:57:26.599 --> 00:57:32.239
<v Speaker 2>environmental influences, nurture. But then that last piece that ties

920
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:36.599
<v Speaker 2>in with our previous episodes of attachment theory parental bonding

921
00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:39.800
<v Speaker 2>and attachment issues. But please keep in mind, folks, eighty

922
00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:43.679
<v Speaker 2>percent of children with early psychopathic traits do not grow

923
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:48.880
<v Speaker 2>into adult psychopaths. That's the silver lining of good knowing

924
00:57:48.920 --> 00:57:52.480
<v Speaker 2>that early interventions that we have discussed way back in

925
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:58.360
<v Speaker 2>previous episodes can have long lasting and significant impact on

926
00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:03.840
<v Speaker 2>proving that child's possibilities of success.

927
00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a really good end cap for well,

928
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:11.039
<v Speaker 1>one for this episode, but also for all of our episodes.

929
00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:14.960
<v Speaker 1>When there is early identification, not even early I guess,

930
00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:18.840
<v Speaker 1>and not necessarily just with disorders in childhood, but when

931
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:24.000
<v Speaker 1>there's identification and then intervention, like good intervention, there is

932
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:27.800
<v Speaker 1>hope for all of this horrible stuff that we talk about, right,

933
00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:31.440
<v Speaker 1>whether it's criminal or whether it's just like a toxic

934
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:35.480
<v Speaker 1>person in your life. So I kind of love that

935
00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:37.320
<v Speaker 1>with the worst of the worst that you think of

936
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:41.840
<v Speaker 1>childhood psychopathy, eighty percent, I mean, that's a stark statistic

937
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:45.000
<v Speaker 1>there that even if they have early psychopathic traits, they're

938
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:47.679
<v Speaker 1>not going to grow into adult psychopaths.

939
00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:52.360
<v Speaker 2>So right, and adding on to that last bit, I

940
00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:59.519
<v Speaker 2>want people listening to challenge their own assumptions about what

941
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:05.159
<v Speaker 2>they can consider to be appropriate parental bonding, or appropriate

942
00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:11.880
<v Speaker 2>family systems, or appropriate family dynamics. Family is and should

943
00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:17.679
<v Speaker 2>be a broad term for adults or almost adults who

944
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.199
<v Speaker 2>are committed to creating a safe and nurturing environment for

945
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:26.679
<v Speaker 2>our youth, and that can look very different from street

946
00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:29.920
<v Speaker 2>to street, from neighborhood to neighborhood, from culture to culture.

947
00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:34.679
<v Speaker 2>So please don't fall into this rigid sort of binary

948
00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:38.599
<v Speaker 2>view of that a healthy family dynamic has to look

949
00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:42.639
<v Speaker 2>like a nineteen fifties version of the nuclear American family,

950
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:45.679
<v Speaker 2>because that's not what we're talking about. Even if a

951
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:49.960
<v Speaker 2>child lives in the system that is given great containment

952
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:54.000
<v Speaker 2>and has great access to mentors and positive role models,

953
00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:58.840
<v Speaker 2>that can have an absolutely beneficial effect. So let's just

954
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:03.280
<v Speaker 2>keep challenging ourselves as we consider this very complex set

955
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:04.920
<v Speaker 2>of behaviors and diagnoses.

956
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:06.880
<v Speaker 1>As far as entertainment goes, I mean, we've done a

957
01:00:06.920 --> 01:00:08.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of these and we don't want to keep you guys.

958
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, we can just name him off the

959
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:12.719
<v Speaker 2>top of our head without a description, right, So yeah, I.

960
01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.519
<v Speaker 1>Mean, feel free to watch the Gagillian versions of The

961
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Bad Seed or the dozens of the Children of the

962
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:19.599
<v Speaker 1>Corn sequels. I don't know.

963
01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:22.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the boy, the good Son or the bad Son.

964
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:26.000
<v Speaker 2>There's a robot version. What is it? What's the one

965
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:30.880
<v Speaker 2>about the killer robot that's protecting her her owner? Megan?

966
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.559
<v Speaker 1>Oh, Megan, Megan. But I honestly like I had forgotten

967
01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:39.039
<v Speaker 1>about the good Son. With Macaulay Culkin, it's terrifying. It

968
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:43.280
<v Speaker 1>is so chilling because he's the same age as like

969
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.800
<v Speaker 1>all of his other popular movies in the nineties, you know,

970
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:50.199
<v Speaker 1>Home Alone, but he's this little violent psychopath that tortures

971
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.079
<v Speaker 1>pour a little Elijah.

972
01:00:51.679 --> 01:00:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Wood, little like angelic Elijah Wood. They both look like

973
01:00:54.880 --> 01:01:01.639
<v Speaker 2>angels until that one's like very chilling, awesome. Well, thank

974
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:04.440
<v Speaker 2>you folks for being so patient with us today. This

975
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:08.039
<v Speaker 2>has been a long and very dense episode. I'm sure

976
01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:10.639
<v Speaker 2>that this will give us the opportunity in a future

977
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:14.480
<v Speaker 2>behind the couch to pull in one of our experts

978
01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:19.039
<v Speaker 2>on this particular issue with children and having to do

979
01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:24.239
<v Speaker 2>with conduct disorder. That will be a fascinating conversation for sure.

980
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:27.199
<v Speaker 1>So happy March everyone, Happy spring break if you have

981
01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:30.599
<v Speaker 1>that coming up, and we'll see you next time on

982
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:33.519
<v Speaker 1>La Not So Confidential.

983
01:01:34.159 --> 01:01:35.679
<v Speaker 2>Bye bye, folks.

984
01:01:46.719 --> 01:01:49.400
<v Speaker 1>We sincerely thank you for spending some time with us today.

985
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:51.599
<v Speaker 1>La Not So Confidential is part of the crawl Space

986
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:55.039
<v Speaker 1>media network. Each episode is hosted, produced, and written by

987
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:57.960
<v Speaker 1>doctor Scott and Doctor Shiloh. Our post production, editing and

988
01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:01.320
<v Speaker 1>sweetening magic is handled by the multi talented Jason Usri

989
01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:02.960
<v Speaker 1>of ear Cult Productions.

990
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.599
<v Speaker 2>Our theme music, entitled Cool Vibes Film Noir, is composed

991
01:02:06.599 --> 01:02:10.079
<v Speaker 2>and performed by the talented Kevin McLoud. He graciously allows

992
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:13.320
<v Speaker 2>us to use his music via a Creative Commons attribution license.

993
01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:16.159
<v Speaker 2>Please check out all of Kevin's amazing work on YouTube.

994
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:18.840
<v Speaker 1>All of the resources for each episode can be found

995
01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:23.079
<v Speaker 1>on our website at La Dash not Dash soo dash

996
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:26.880
<v Speaker 1>confidential dot com. You can find us on Instagram at

997
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:30.239
<v Speaker 1>La Nosa podcast, on x at La No soapod, and

998
01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:33.760
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at La Not So Confidential. Media inquiries and

999
01:02:33.800 --> 01:02:37.800
<v Speaker 1>bookings are scheduled at Alienist Entertainment at gmail dot com.

1000
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Once a month, we go live on YouTube on Saturday afternoon,

1001
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:43.960
<v Speaker 2>so pay attention to our social media announcements to join

1002
01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:47.719
<v Speaker 2>our interactive broadcast entitled Behind the Couch, where we interview

1003
01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:50.199
<v Speaker 2>guests on a number of psych criminal, justice and true

1004
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:50.920
<v Speaker 2>crime topics.

1005
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.559
<v Speaker 1>And lastly, we'd be honored if you joined our Patreon

1006
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:57.800
<v Speaker 1>at patreon dot com slash La Not So Podcast. With

1007
01:02:57.880 --> 01:03:02.000
<v Speaker 1>a subscription, you get an ad free listening experience, additional content,

1008
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:04.719
<v Speaker 1>host interaction, and you'll be the first to know about

1009
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:08.320
<v Speaker 1>upcoming live events, social gatherings, and super cool swag.

1010
01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening and join us next time on La

1011
01:03:11.519 --> 01:03:13.360
<v Speaker 2>not So Confidential.