Speaker 1: Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott and this
Speaker 1: is La Not So Confidential, the Forensic Psychology and True
Speaker 1: Crime podcast.
Speaker 2: In each episode, we explore the intersection of psychology, the
Speaker 2: criminal justice system, and entertainment.
Speaker 1: Today, our episode is on the forensic psychtopics of conduct disorder,
Speaker 1: antisocial personality disorder, and psychopathy.
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everybody. We're so glad you're back for this
Speaker 2: episode that Doctor Shiloh and I have been wanting to
Speaker 2: do for a very long time. We're circling back around
Speaker 2: to an element of mental health disorders that we've talked
Speaker 2: about in the past that are integrally intertwined with criminal behavior.
Speaker 2: So sit back, there's going to be a lot of
Speaker 2: information coming at you, and please be patient with my
Speaker 2: stronger Southern accent than usual. I have relatives visiting this week.
Speaker 2: That's funny. It is Patage's. We were shopping last night
Speaker 2: out at the Farmer's Market and eating at one of
Speaker 2: the restaurants and this woman at the table turned to
Speaker 2: me and said, where are you from. You're not from here,
Speaker 2: And it's like nobody has commented on my accent in
Speaker 2: a long time. So like I lived down the street. Baby,
Speaker 2: Literally I'm literally two blocks from your room.
Speaker 1: Okay, like, oh, okay, you're good now you're talking like that.
Speaker 2: But everyone, for the locals, for the travelers, we have
Speaker 2: a Los Angeles Not So Confidential live event on Friday,
Speaker 2: April eleventh, twenty twenty five. So if you're listening to
Speaker 2: this in the far flung future, know that it's twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five that we're really looking forward to. So there'll
Speaker 2: be more information on the website, on our social media.
Speaker 2: Please put that in your calendars if you'd like to
Speaker 2: join us. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: And then we've also started the process of planning a
Speaker 2: summer tour with our favorite tour guide Chris, who is
Speaker 2: Off the Hook fantastic, and this time, instead of being
Speaker 2: in downtown Los Angeles, we're going to be on the famous,
Speaker 2: the fabulous and quite formidable Sunset Strip. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff to talk about on the Sunset Strip.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff, and I was also thinking,
Speaker 1: there's so many cool places to go and eat or
Speaker 1: grab a drink before and after. Oh yeah, yeah, we
Speaker 1: just got to pick a date for that, but we'll
Speaker 1: want to do that during the summertime in the evening,
Speaker 1: so it's great weather and all the craziness of Hollywood
Speaker 1: is at your fingertips exactly.
Speaker 2: I think we can get the West Hollywood Shriff's Department
Speaker 2: to sit in with us and tell some of the
Speaker 2: stories of what they had to deal with. I can
Speaker 2: tell some stories of the ride alongs I went on
Speaker 2: when I was with Sheriff's Department. All right, just doctor Shiloh,
Speaker 2: please catch us up on the last episode.
Speaker 1: Okay, everyone. In our last episode, we had a really
Speaker 1: interesting live conversation with Justin Evans of Generation Why and
Speaker 1: of course his solo podcast, The Peripheral. We always have
Speaker 1: great discussions with Justin in person, and the last time
Speaker 1: that we were all together, we decided it's worth taking
Speaker 1: a look back at Matthew Perry's death and really drilling
Speaker 1: down and looking at the cause of death along with
Speaker 1: the stigma that comes from deaths where substances are involved,
Speaker 1: and then even peeling back another layer of looking at
Speaker 1: the ways in which we as consumers and the media
Speaker 1: try to understand these deaths when a celebrity is involved
Speaker 1: versus a non celebrity, which we really just don't ever
Speaker 1: hear about it. Touched on so many poignant topics. I
Speaker 1: think it's really becoming one of my favorite behind the
Speaker 1: couch conversations we've ever had. And we've had some really
Speaker 1: great responses.
Speaker 2: We've had a lot of great behind the couches, and
Speaker 2: we've had a lot of great responses on this particular episode.
Speaker 2: And I would agree with you, and I would even
Speaker 2: add on that those conversations we were having were not
Speaker 2: only about we as consumers versus the media, but all
Speaker 2: three of us as content creators, sure are involved in
Speaker 2: this conversation. And it's complex, and you know, it gets
Speaker 2: people riled up. People want to get very concrete about
Speaker 2: this very very complex issue, you know, and it requires
Speaker 2: critical thinking in the same way that really being an
Speaker 2: informed consumer of true crime content really should require us
Speaker 2: to be critical thinkers about where did this person come from? Again,
Speaker 2: as I always say, because I always go back to wicked,
Speaker 2: was she born this way? Or did the world kind
Speaker 2: of do this to her? Or what's the lens that
Speaker 2: we're looking through from week to week, from year to
Speaker 2: year or decade to decade as we look back on
Speaker 2: some of these things. So, yeah, thank you for mentioning that.
Speaker 2: And if you haven't had a chance to listen to it, Folks,
Speaker 2: please go back and give it a listen or give
Speaker 2: it a watch on YouTube.
Speaker 1: I love that you've been quoting Wicked since the beginning
Speaker 1: of our podcast and then now it's like back in
Speaker 1: a huge.
Speaker 2: Thing, I know, and in a way that I enjoyed
Speaker 2: because I was really like kind of holding like I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's going to be that good, and
Speaker 2: then I enjoyed it so much because there was so
Speaker 2: much that was drawn from the book, which is very,
Speaker 2: very dark. And even my husband Dan, who is like
Speaker 2: he's a big Broadway person, but this was not one
Speaker 2: of his favorite shows, but he turned after the movie.
Speaker 2: He goes, well, now everything makes sense, like I understand
Speaker 2: the backstory and blah blah blah, But I digress. We're
Speaker 2: not talking about Wicked. We are talking about dunda dun
Speaker 2: du attachment disorders and the intersection of personality disorders. So, folks,
Speaker 2: over the past seven and a half years, we've spoken
Speaker 2: pretty expansively about this intersection between personality disorders and crime
Speaker 2: and whether or not those personality disorders are full blown
Speaker 2: or just certain flavors yeah, or like an ish of
Speaker 2: a ish like you know, kind of like a Lacroix
Speaker 2: fizzy water, right, Yeah, you know, you're drinking a lemon
Speaker 2: fizzy water and it's like you're drinking bubbles and somebody
Speaker 2: is whispering lemon from two blocks away, right exactly. But
Speaker 2: those flavors can actually have a huge impact on the
Speaker 2: way that we as individuals interact with the world around us.
Speaker 2: And of course we always want to refer to the
Speaker 2: most recent and validated research on our particular areas of
Speaker 2: work and interest and discussion here on the show. So
Speaker 2: we're following up on our previous episode about attachment disorders
Speaker 2: and how they're entangled with so many of the behaviors
Speaker 2: and the presentations of personality disorders. If you haven't had
Speaker 2: a chance to listen to that two part episode, because
Speaker 2: of course we over researched and we just did so much,
Speaker 2: we couldn't burden people with a three hour episode, please
Speaker 2: go back and get that under your belt before diving.
Speaker 1: Into this week's Yes, and just as a trigger warning
Speaker 1: for this week, this episode includes discussions of sexual assault, murder,
Speaker 1: and self mutilation.
Speaker 2: Any aficionado of the true crime genre is well acquainted
Speaker 2: with some of the high profile criminals that clearly have
Speaker 2: strong diagnostic critters are for antisocial personality disorder. We all
Speaker 2: know Ted Bundy, notorious serial killer who displayed many ASPD
Speaker 2: traits including manipulation, deceit, and a clear lack of remorse.
Speaker 2: And there's the fascinating case of Richard Kuklinsky, also known
Speaker 2: as the Iceman, and he was a contract killer with
Speaker 2: documented ASPD traits including aggression and emotional detachment. But many
Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily immediately assume that a wealthy financial adviser would
Speaker 2: fit the bill as well. But Bernie Madoff was a
Speaker 2: white collar criminal who ran the largest Ponzi scheme in
Speaker 2: known history, exhibiting traits like deception and exploitation. So back
Speaker 2: to wicked. Is it nature or nurture? Did they emerge
Speaker 2: from the womb with full on ASPD wiring? Well, the
Speaker 2: good thing is that we have clinical research on the
Speaker 2: relationship between attachment styles and personality disorders, and it has
Speaker 2: been extensively studied, particularly in the last two decades. What
Speaker 2: has emerged from this research is significant correlations that expand
Speaker 2: and deepen our understanding of psychopathology. The overwhelming drive for
Speaker 2: criminal activity, there's a direct relationship between the role of
Speaker 2: early attachment experiences in the development of these conditions, and
Speaker 2: if you listen to the last episode, you know that
Speaker 2: disorganized attachment patterns can significantly impair, affect or emotional regulation
Speaker 2: as well as contribute to the development of personality disorders
Speaker 2: like ASPD, although borderline personality disorder has also shown to
Speaker 2: be quite prominent as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, but we are not going to follow down that
Speaker 1: yellow brick road today. We're going to stick with really
Speaker 1: a bit of a journey here down a very dark
Speaker 1: path for sure. But when we ponder back on all
Speaker 1: of the disrupted attachments that we discovered in those episodes
Speaker 1: episode one ninety nine, no we keep referencing them and
Speaker 1: also think about personality disorders, it seems obvious that there's
Speaker 1: a trajectory there and that we need to touch on
Speaker 1: some other crossovers in diagnosing and phenomenon in forensic psychology
Speaker 1: and frankly, things that we've been covering since episode two
Speaker 1: of this podcast when we go all the way back
Speaker 1: and look at our first episodes on psychopathy. So let's
Speaker 1: stick with childhood behavior and parse out conduct disorder first
Speaker 1: before tying this into an adult personality disorder and beyond.
Speaker 1: Conduct disorder is a mental health condition that affects children
Speaker 1: and teens that's characterized by a consistent pattern of aggressive
Speaker 1: behaviors and actions that harm the well being of others.
Speaker 1: Children with conduct disorder also often violate rules and societal norms,
Speaker 1: and conduct disorder lies on a spectrum of disruptive behavioral disorders,
Speaker 1: which also includes oppositional defiant disorder, which is something different,
Speaker 1: but we're going to stay on track here. So again,
Speaker 1: conduct disorder only affects children and adolescents. It can have
Speaker 1: early onset before the age of ten, but commonly develops
Speaker 1: an adolescents, which is up to nineteen years old. In
Speaker 1: this case, the condition is more common in male children
Speaker 1: than female children, and the average age of presentation is
Speaker 1: ten to twelve years in males and then a little
Speaker 1: bit later fourteen to sixteen years in females. So conduct
Speaker 1: disorder affects anywhere between two and ten percent of children
Speaker 1: and adolescents in the United States. I think it's important
Speaker 1: to ask here what is the difference between conduct disorder
Speaker 1: and personality disorders, just to make sure we're all on
Speaker 1: the same page. So a personality disorder is a mental
Speaker 1: health condition that involves long lasting disruptive patterns of thinking
Speaker 1: as well as behavior as well as mood, and then
Speaker 1: how that all relates to others, like how is that
Speaker 1: impacting negatively impacting the people around them. Most personality disorders
Speaker 1: begin in the teen years, when obviously personality is further
Speaker 1: developing and maturing, and as a result, almost all people
Speaker 1: diagnosed with personality disorders are above the age of eighteen. Traditionally,
Speaker 1: we don't want to label them prior to that. One
Speaker 1: exception to this is antisocial personality disorder, in that approximately
Speaker 1: eighty percent of people with this disorder started to show
Speaker 1: symptoms by the age of eleven. So let's put a
Speaker 1: pin in that we will come back to antisocial personality disorder.
Speaker 1: But that's the one that we start to see very
Speaker 1: very early, hence conduct disorder.
Speaker 2: So what are the signs and the symptoms of conduct disorder?
Speaker 2: So characteristic behaviors of conduct disorder develop gradually over the time.
Speaker 2: It's not just like a kid wakes up and has
Speaker 2: this radical change in behavior. If that happens, you get
Speaker 2: your kid to a doctor immediately, right, Because a radical
Speaker 2: change of behavior is usually having to do something neurological
Speaker 2: trauma or medical so definitely not that in this situation.
Speaker 2: Children with conduct disorder tend to be impulsive and difficult
Speaker 2: to manage, and research has shown that individuals with these
Speaker 2: traits have abnormalities in the way their brain processes moral
Speaker 2: decision making, even at the pre high school level. Right,
Speaker 2: so they're already seeing a very different way of how
Speaker 2: this child is walking through the world from an early age.
Speaker 2: They don't seem to be concerned about the feelings of
Speaker 2: other people, and many times in retrospect when parents are
Speaker 2: being interviewed, they will say, I knew something was different
Speaker 2: about my child. I knew something was off. So the
Speaker 2: four core behaviors of conduct disorder include aggression towards people
Speaker 2: in animals or like. The way we use the typical
Speaker 2: term in diagnostic criteria is violating others basic rights, so
Speaker 2: violating their bodily autonomy, violating their property, their personal space,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Point two is destruction of property.
Speaker 2: Point three is deceiving, lying and or stealing, and point
Speaker 2: four is serious violation of rules. So signs of aggressive
Speaker 2: behavior towards other include bullying, physical violence, potentially even with
Speaker 2: a weapon as a child, verbal fights, threatening, forcing sexual activity,
Speaker 2: and blaming others for their own behavior, as well as
Speaker 2: hurting animals. Going on to that second point we've discussed
Speaker 2: just now was signs of the destruction of property will
Speaker 2: include intentionally setting fires and vandalizing or purposely destroying other
Speaker 2: people's property. Point three, signs of deceiving and lying and
Speaker 2: stealing would include lying to get a favor or to
Speaker 2: avoid responsibilities, stealing from individuals or from retail establishments, or
Speaker 2: going so far as to break into houses or businesses.
Speaker 2: And then the signs of the violation of rules would
Speaker 2: include breaking rules without a clear reason. So part of
Speaker 2: the development through the teen years is breaking rules. You're
Speaker 2: learning to be your own individual, but there's usually a
Speaker 2: reason for it. Well, I wanted to go out, so
Speaker 2: that's why I snuck out my window. But breaking rules
Speaker 2: without a clear reason is just it's almost like they're
Speaker 2: seeking a form of stimulation for an area of feeling
Speaker 2: that is just not working. Like other kids also can
Speaker 2: be exhibited by not going to school, which we call
Speaker 2: truancy here in the US, running away from home, or
Speaker 2: frequently breaking any rules set by their parents.
Speaker 1: So there's other common signs of conduct disorder that don't
Speaker 1: necessarily fit neatly into those other categories. But you can
Speaker 1: see heavy alcohol use, substance use, engaging in frequent or
Speaker 1: risky types of sexual behavior, becoming easily frustrated or making
Speaker 1: no effort at all to hide their aggressive behaviors is
Speaker 1: what we see as well. And then comes the not
Speaker 1: showing remorse for those things. So you have the behaviors,
Speaker 1: but then we're starting to see the personality, the affect
Speaker 1: piece of it. And another key component you know we
Speaker 1: always look holistically when we're doing an assessment is looking
Speaker 1: at those social relationships, and these individuals tend to have
Speaker 1: a difficulty making and maintaining friendships. It is important to
Speaker 1: note that, like you touched on, occasional rebellious behavior is
Speaker 1: very common during childhood and adolescens, with studies showing that
Speaker 1: like fifty to eighty percent of youth engage in some
Speaker 1: form of something we could label as antisocial behavior during
Speaker 1: their development, but only a small percentage ever meet the
Speaker 1: criteria for disorders like conduct disorder. We're talking like some
Speaker 1: studies on the low end one point eight percent and
Speaker 1: then some studies going up onto the high end of
Speaker 1: like sixteen percent. So the signs and symptoms that lead
Speaker 1: to the diagnosis of conduct disorder demonstrate a disruptive and
Speaker 1: repetitive pattern, and the previously described types of actions violate
Speaker 1: again those rights of others and fall under that category
Speaker 1: of quote unquote antisocial behavior.
Speaker 2: So all of this research doesn't exactly point to one
Speaker 2: specific exact cause of the disorder, but as you have
Speaker 2: probably guessed, it seems to be a complex combination of genetic, biological,
Speaker 2: and environmental factors. And we're going to emphasize here complex combination.
Speaker 2: So genetic or biological factors, various studies have shown that
Speaker 2: certain characteristics of conduct disorder can be inherited, and that
Speaker 2: would include some of the antisocial behaviors, the impulsivity, the
Speaker 2: temperament changes, aggression, and the insensitivity to punishment. That's a
Speaker 2: really big one. Insensitivity to punishment as well as l
Speaker 2: testosterone levels that are associated with aggression. Traumatic brain injury, seizures,
Speaker 2: and neurological damage of course can all contribute to aggression
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: And then when it comes to the parental, familial and
Speaker 1: environmental factors, we're talking some really interesting statistics where the
Speaker 1: research shows that parents of adolescents with conduct disorder have
Speaker 1: often engaged in substance use in antisocial behaviors themselves. They're
Speaker 1: also frequently diagnosed with ADHD, mood disorders, schizophrenia, or antisocial
Speaker 1: personality disorder. We also sometimes see a home environment that
Speaker 1: lacks structure and adequate supervision with frequent conflicts between the parents,
Speaker 1: and then that can lead to maladaptive behavior in the children,
Speaker 1: which can then go on to be associated with conduct disorder.
Speaker 1: We also see that in children that are exposed to
Speaker 1: frequent domestic violence are more likely to develop conduct disorder.
Speaker 1: And then living in low social and economic environments with
Speaker 1: overcrowding and unemployment leads to economic and social stress. With that,
Speaker 1: I would say that and then coupled with the lack
Speaker 1: of adequate parenting, can be breeding ground as well for
Speaker 1: conduct distorts or so we just know that conduct disorder
Speaker 1: ends up impacting more children living in low economic environments
Speaker 1: than not. We also see the availability of drugs and
Speaker 1: increase crime in a child's neighborhood then can increase their
Speaker 1: risk of developing conduct disorder. So, having said all that again,
Speaker 1: it's really important to note that conduct disorder can occur
Speaker 1: in children from very high functioning quote unquote healthy families
Speaker 1: that maybe aren't experiencing some of these things as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're bringing up some really interesting stuff. I want
Speaker 2: to clarify something that in households with high acees adverse
Speaker 2: childhood experiences which may or may not be the result
Speaker 2: of intended abuse on the physical, sexual, or emotional level.
Speaker 2: You know, some households just have problems because life throws
Speaker 2: problems at us, right, But what you will see is
Speaker 2: that you can see some kids acting out in anger
Speaker 2: because of the situation they're in that have nothing to
Speaker 2: do with conduct disorder or have nothing to do with
Speaker 2: oppositional defiant disorder. You can also see children come from
Speaker 2: really really adverse situations who go on to be highly
Speaker 2: highly highly successful people and hyper independent from a very
Speaker 2: young age, which is not always a good thing. Success
Speaker 2: is good, I mean, I'm certainly not going to downplay
Speaker 2: how good it is to be successful and be able
Speaker 2: to support your family and maybe increase your quality of lifestyle.
Speaker 2: But sometimes we have to take into account that kids
Speaker 2: that are placed with way too much responsibility and way
Speaker 2: too many adult activities of daily living before they are
Speaker 2: developmentally ready for it, they're going to be cash in
Speaker 2: that check that their parents wrote for them many years later,
Speaker 2: and that's why a lot of people end up in
Speaker 2: therapy actually is trying to disentangle that stuff. So that
Speaker 2: was just like a little side note I wanted to
Speaker 2: put in there so that we make sure that we're
Speaker 2: not shaming families that have situations out of their control.
Speaker 2: You know, there's the panoply or the spectrum of human
Speaker 2: behavior and development. It's very very wide and very very complex.
Speaker 2: Prognosis or the long term outlook for conduct disorder really
Speaker 2: really depends on how early the condition developed and if
Speaker 2: it was treated. So usually the disruptive behaviors of conduct
Speaker 2: stop during early adulthood, but in about one third of
Speaker 2: the cases they will continue. In many of these cases
Speaker 2: will meet the criteria for antisocial personality disorder or certainly,
Speaker 2: like we were saying, an ish a flavor, a shadow
Speaker 2: early onset of the condition before ten years of age
Speaker 2: is associated with a much poor long term prognosis and
Speaker 2: is strongly associated with a significant decline in school performance.
Speaker 2: So again, really important stuff for people out there that
Speaker 2: are fascinated by true crime and the history of the
Speaker 2: people who commit these crimes. Looking at that factor, these
Speaker 2: kypes of behaviors before the age of ten, decline in
Speaker 2: school performance. Those are things to watch out for. It
Speaker 2: just means that, like in that moment, the chemicals in
Speaker 2: their head are creating a storm that's going to have
Speaker 2: long term impact on that child's life. Depression and bipolar
Speaker 2: disorder may also develop in the teen years in early adulthood,
Speaker 2: and suicidal ideation can be a complication because of these conditions,
Speaker 2: It's important to get your child immediate medical care if
Speaker 2: they're talking about or threatening suicide. Don't shut down the conversation.
Speaker 2: Continue the conversation, let your child know that they are
Speaker 2: being heard, but also seek outside help.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So.
Speaker 1: Let's look at a case study here just to round
Speaker 1: out conduct disorder to highlight what this looks like in
Speaker 1: real life. Michael Perry was diagnosed with conduct disorder in
Speaker 1: the eighth grade. His early life was marked by behavioral issues,
Speaker 1: including truancy and theft, and despite interventions, his antisocial behavior escalated,
Speaker 1: leading to his involvement in serious crimes, eventually including murder.
Speaker 1: So raised in Texas, Mary's childhood had significant instability, as
Speaker 1: well as financial struggles and some family dysfunction. Background research
Speaker 1: and police report suggest that his parents had a strained relationship,
Speaker 1: and his upbringing lock structure and discipline. Perry exhibited behavioral
Speaker 1: issues from an early age, engaging in petty crimes and
Speaker 1: showing some early signs of conduct disorder.
Speaker 2: According to Perry's confession, in two thousand and one, he
Speaker 2: and his friend Jason Aaron Burkett conspired to steal two
Speaker 2: vehicles from the parents of Adam Stottler, a seventeen year
Speaker 2: old acquaintance. The very poorly planned crime went south when
Speaker 2: Burkett approached the Stoutler residence, knocked on the front door
Speaker 2: and asked to use the phone. Meanwhile, Perry, armed with
Speaker 2: a shotgun, entered through the back door via the garage
Speaker 2: and concealed himself in the laundry room. Sandra Stottler, Adam's mother,
Speaker 2: opened the back door, Perry emerged from his hiding place
Speaker 2: and shot her in the side. As she fell and
Speaker 2: attempted to rise, Perry then shot her again, fatally wounding her.
Speaker 2: Perry and Burkette then loaded her body into the back
Speaker 2: of the truck and dumped the body in a nearby lake,
Speaker 2: Attempting to hide their crime. The two immediately left to
Speaker 2: pick up Kristin Willis, another friend from work, and then
Speaker 2: returned to the Stotler home. Later, Adam Stottler and his
Speaker 2: friend Jeremy Richardson arrived Unaware of what had transpired, Burkett
Speaker 2: and Perry lured them into a wooded area under the
Speaker 2: false pretense that a friend had been shot and needed help.
Speaker 2: Once they were deep in the woods, Burkett shot and
Speaker 2: killed both Adam and Jeremy. The group then returned to
Speaker 2: the Stottler home before heading to a bar to continue
Speaker 2: their night.
Speaker 1: So Two days later, law enforcement attempted to stop Perry
Speaker 1: for a traffic violation, and he sped off from the stop,
Speaker 1: leading to a dangerous high speed police chase. When he
Speaker 1: was finally apprehended, he attempted to conceal his identity by
Speaker 1: providing authorities with Adam Stoutler's identity, as he had just
Speaker 1: happened to have Stottler's wallet on him. After these crimes,
Speaker 1: Parry was taken into custody, but released on bail. A
Speaker 1: few days later. He and Burquette soon found themselves in
Speaker 1: trouble again. While driving a stolen car, he again attempted
Speaker 1: to evade law enforcement, but ended up crashing into a
Speaker 1: deputy Sheriff's vehicle. Their final escape attempt ended with both
Speaker 1: men being arrested while hiding in a nearby apartment complex.
Speaker 1: The shotgun used in Sandra Stotler's murder was discovered at
Speaker 1: the scene, along with forensic evidence linking Perry to the crime.
Speaker 2: Perry was charged with Sandra Stotler's murder, and the forensic
Speaker 2: evidence from Crater Lake, the wooded crime scene, and the
Speaker 2: Stotler residents aligned with his confession. During the trial, Perry
Speaker 2: completely asserted in about face and recanted his confession statement,
Speaker 2: claiming that he was coerced by law enforcement. The jury
Speaker 2: found this defense unconvincing and he was convicted. He was
Speaker 2: then executed by lethal injection in Texas on July first,
Speaker 2: twenty ten. His accomplice, Jason Burkett, was tried separately, convicted
Speaker 2: of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison. So
Speaker 2: this particular example really does high light light that not
Speaker 2: following the rules, impulsivity, lack of judgment, lack of insight
Speaker 2: into what's going to happen. As we've talked about on
Speaker 2: this show before, when people engage in high speed chases,
Speaker 2: there's one of maybe a few things one is drugs
Speaker 2: may be involved, Like they may be so impaired by
Speaker 2: the use of drugs that they're really not thinking it through,
Speaker 2: or they know they're at the end of their rope
Speaker 2: and that there's no choice left, so why not turn
Speaker 2: it into like sort of a shot for glory, Or
Speaker 2: they actually think that they may be able to get away,
Speaker 2: so that lack of sort of intellectual functioning in that
Speaker 2: moment they're actually getting high. It takes so much to
Speaker 2: get a person with the wiring for ASPD to get
Speaker 2: them stimulated in the way that you or I might
Speaker 2: be able to get stimulated from something that we find enjoyable.
Speaker 2: They will go to these extreme ends without insight or
Speaker 2: judgment into what the consequences are going to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And that was a very heavy case study,
Speaker 1: but you know one where we're able to find where
Speaker 1: the perpetrator did have this conduct disorder diagnosis. And I
Speaker 1: think you know, with that extreme example, many of you
Speaker 1: are probably thinking, well, maybe conduct disorder is sounding a
Speaker 1: lot like antisocial personality disorder or even psychopathy, especially after
Speaker 1: that example. And yes, ASPD is the adult version of
Speaker 1: conduct disorder. If you know, we want to frame it
Speaker 1: that way, there's not that much difference between conduct disorder
Speaker 1: and ASPD, and in fact, conduct disorder is essentially a
Speaker 1: point criteria for ASPD. There needs to be evidence of
Speaker 1: conduct disorder before the age of fifteen for somebody to
Speaker 1: meet full criteria for antisocial personality disorder, along of course,
Speaker 1: with the pervasive pattern of deviating from social norms on
Speaker 1: their own and then the functional impairment that that disorder
Speaker 1: causes to the adult's life. But it's estimated to affect
Speaker 1: between point six percent and three point six percent of adults,
Speaker 1: and it's three times more common among men than women,
Speaker 1: and individuals with antisocial personality disorder often also have co
Speaker 1: occurring mental health conditions such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder,
Speaker 1: and or substance use disorders.
Speaker 2: Right, we've talked a lot about AESPD on this show
Speaker 2: in various forms, so we thought it's maybe time to
Speaker 2: give a little historical perspective as to how this diagnosis
Speaker 2: has been shaped over the years. In the nineteenth century,
Speaker 2: British physician William Pritchard used the term moral insanity to
Speaker 2: describe individuals who engaged in antisocial behaviors. Now we're starting
Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century, although you can go back as
Speaker 2: far as like a great example is a book The
Speaker 2: Killer of Little Shepherds is a great example of something
Speaker 2: that was happening in the sixteenth century, you know, which
Speaker 2: is frightening. But the research and the naming and the
Speaker 2: nomenclature really started around this time. So Richard believed these
Speaker 2: individuals lacked a moral compass, and that in itself has
Speaker 2: continued to be a key characteristic of what we now
Speaker 2: find and call antisocial personality disorder. So it's a complex
Speaker 2: disorder that's been difficult for psychiatrists and psychologists to really
Speaker 2: fully understand. However, doctor Daniel Goodwin and doctor Samuel Hughes
Speaker 2: provided a clear definition in their book Psychiatric Diagnosis. They
Speaker 2: described ASPD as a persistent pattern of socially irresponsible, exploitative,
Speaker 2: and guiltless behavior that affects many areas of life, including family, school, work,
Speaker 2: and relationships. But that description is just an illustration of
Speaker 2: symptoms which may actually arise from a number of complex
Speaker 2: and interwoven factors. The symptoms of ASPD exist on a spectrum,
Speaker 2: ranging from relatively mild behaviors like lying and cheating to
Speaker 2: much more severe actions like violent crime, including rape and murder.
Speaker 1: The work of doctor Lee Robbins in the nineteen fifties
Speaker 1: and sixties was instrumental in shaping the diagnostic criteria for ASPD,
Speaker 1: which were included in the DSM three in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: and refined of course in later editions. According to the
Speaker 1: DSM five, a person must meet the following conditions to
Speaker 1: be diagnosed with ASPD. We have the point of a
Speaker 1: minimum of three out of seven pathological traits such as deceitfulness, impulsivity, aggression, recklessness,
Speaker 1: and irresponsibility. Another point, as we mentioned just a little
Speaker 1: bit ago, is they have to be eighteen years or
Speaker 1: older and showed signs of conduct disorder before the age
Speaker 1: of fifteen. We also know that one of the criteria,
Speaker 1: which is pretty common, is that these symptoms must not
Speaker 1: be caused by basically some other diagnosis and specifically here
Speaker 1: schizophrenia or mania. So again, ASPD is the only personality
Speaker 1: disorder in the DSM five that has that age requirement,
Speaker 1: which really reflects its chronic nature and the early developmental roots.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me in my position. Last year, I
Speaker 2: had a particularly challenging call to make. I've been working
Speaker 2: with a parent about a child referral. This child had
Speaker 2: engaged in self harm behaviors, was having troubles at school,
Speaker 2: but there was nothing acting out against other students. There
Speaker 2: was no threats of violence, but there was really some
Speaker 2: significant affect issues and just quality of life issues. And
Speaker 2: because of the insurance this family had, the child was
Speaker 2: sent to a company here in California that is across
Speaker 2: the state and they do nothing but psychiatric care, no therapy,
Speaker 2: just psychiatric care and it's all telehealth. Oh jeez, so
Speaker 2: already you can see some problems and the mom. By
Speaker 2: the time I was talking to mom, Mom was just
Speaker 2: in tears, Like we were talking to this clinician and
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say what discipline they are, but
Speaker 2: they were a medical clinician doing these diagnoses. And within
Speaker 2: ten minutes of the call talking to the child, the
Speaker 2: child who was under the age of twelve, the clinician
Speaker 2: closed his DSM and said, well, I don't have an
Speaker 2: adolescent DSM. I don't have that version, just have the adult.
Speaker 2: But clearly you have borderline personality disorder what.
Speaker 1: So you're like that version doesn't exist because we don't diagnose.
Speaker 2: Adolescens exactly, right, So as doctor Shiloh will be the
Speaker 2: first to attest doctor Scott can get his southern up.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And I'm usually quite professional, but I tracked
Speaker 2: down this clinician through the office manager and demanded a
Speaker 2: call back and had to actually kind of threaten that
Speaker 2: I was going to report them to the board. And
Speaker 2: I got on the phone. I just let that clinician
Speaker 2: have it as like what are you doing? Like how
Speaker 2: these are the basic rules. You're a psychiatric practitioner of this,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to know this, and what harmed you? And
Speaker 2: I mean, the person was very surprised because apparently nobody
Speaker 2: had ever called them on their bullshit. But again, this
Speaker 2: is an illustration of how careful we have to be
Speaker 2: with diagnostic labels, right, And that's why they really have
Speaker 2: significant and substantial research that has made conduct disorder clearly
Speaker 2: to be a factor that has to be present for
Speaker 2: a real diagnosis of ASPD and none of the other
Speaker 2: personality disorders have it.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So as forensic psychologists, doctor Shiloh and I have worked
Speaker 2: with a number of people with an ASPD diagnosis, and
Speaker 2: it is really interesting to note some of the challenges
Speaker 2: in diagnosis and treatment of the disorder. So psychiatrist doctor
Speaker 2: David Black states that many of the mental health professionals
Speaker 2: feel unprepared to treat individuals with ASPD and may then
Speaker 2: avoid working with them altogether. So outside of forensic psychology,
Speaker 2: in the prison system or jail system, ASPD is often
Speaker 2: overlooked by clinicians, which is really concerning a clinician's discomfort
Speaker 2: with particular traits or behaviors may make that clinician less
Speaker 2: likely to notice them occurring in non obvious ways, and
Speaker 2: that's a problem. We can't avoid these things as clinicians
Speaker 2: and be thoroughly ready to give the public treatment. And
Speaker 2: despite being a relatively small percentage of the population, individuals
Speaker 2: with ASPD have a high significant societal impact. So here's
Speaker 2: this sliver of the population that really can impact the
Speaker 2: community at large, and we've got a bunch of clinicians
Speaker 2: that are like, oh no, I don't work with that,
Speaker 2: I don't deal with that. And studies showed that thirty
Speaker 2: point six percent to eighty four percent of prison populations
Speaker 2: meet the criteria for ASPD, with US estimates averaging around
Speaker 2: fifty percent within the prison system. But wait, there's more.
Speaker 2: As we've said many times on multiple episodes over the years.
Speaker 2: The most important research regarding personality disorders has emerged over
Speaker 2: the past one to two decades, and this is where
Speaker 2: our understanding of the disorder extended beyond the pretty rigid
Speaker 2: framework of nurture into a very complex nexus of both
Speaker 2: environment and genetics.
Speaker 1: Yes, the biological basis of antisocial behavior is again complex,
Speaker 1: we're using that word a lot today and it involves
Speaker 1: a combination of many genetic factors. Brain structure abnormalities, particularly
Speaker 1: in that prefrontal cortex, as well as imbalances in neurotransmitters
Speaker 1: like serotonin and dopamine, and the dysregulation of the autonomic
Speaker 1: nervous system which often manifests as low arousal levels which
Speaker 1: can contribute to a predisposition towards antisocial actions and risky behavior. So,
Speaker 1: as far as the genetics go, just super interesting to
Speaker 1: look at. Some of these studies and always fascinating studies
Speaker 1: on twins and families indicate a significant genetic component to
Speaker 1: antisocial behavior, suggesting certain genes may predispose individuals to this
Speaker 1: aggressive or impulsive tendencies and actions. And then when it
Speaker 1: comes to the prefrontal cortex, research often points to reduced
Speaker 1: activity or some structural abnormalities in the prefrontal cortex. That
Speaker 1: region is really crucial for your decision making, impulsivity, moral reasoning.
Speaker 1: So we're either finding that some things just don't light
Speaker 1: up or the structure is actually different. And then we
Speaker 1: have the amygdala deep in the middle of your brain,
Speaker 1: and this area is associated with processing emotions, and dysfunction
Speaker 1: can lead to difficulty in recognizing or responding to others distress,
Speaker 1: again potentially contributing to antisocial behavior. And then we have
Speaker 1: the anterior singular cortex, and this plays a role in
Speaker 1: conflict monitoring and decision making. And so when you have
Speaker 1: abnormalities in this region, we find that there's more impulsive
Speaker 1: behavior related to that.
Speaker 2: So again just kind of looking at a big perspective,
Speaker 2: let's back away and look at all four of those
Speaker 2: areas that you just mentioned. Although the amygdala is very
Speaker 2: very deep inside the brain, it's part of really one
Speaker 2: of the most primitive parts of our brain. It's not
Speaker 2: later in the evolutionary process, yes, now, but this is
Speaker 2: a great sort of primer for understanding how impactful traumatic
Speaker 2: brain injury can be. So you can take someone who
Speaker 2: doesn't have any of the structural issues or any of
Speaker 2: the wiring, but you cauck them on the head. In
Speaker 2: these particular areas, a number of times lesions can form
Speaker 2: and then cause a personality change later in life. So
Speaker 2: there is the structure issue, but let's look at also
Speaker 2: on top of it, this layer of chemical dysfunction. So
Speaker 2: when we look in sort of the category of neurotransmitters, serotonin,
Speaker 2: low serotonin levels have been linked to aggression and impulsivity,
Speaker 2: potentially contributing to antisocial behavior. Then dopamine, so dopamine dysregulation
Speaker 2: is involved in the reward processing centers of our brain,
Speaker 2: and it can lead to increased sensation seeking and potential
Speaker 2: engagement in risky antisocial acts. And then there's the ANS,
Speaker 2: which is the autonomic nervous system. And there's this theory
Speaker 2: which is fascinating called low arousal theory. And some research
Speaker 2: is now suggesting that individuals with antisocial tendencies exhibit a
Speaker 2: lower resting heart rate and reduced ANS activity, leading to
Speaker 2: a decreased sensitivity to potential negative consequences of their actions.
Speaker 2: One of the really amazing and frightening sets of studies
Speaker 2: that this research emerged from was focusing on intimate partner
Speaker 2: violence and male abusers of the partners, and what they
Speaker 2: noted was that these guys would get so violent, violent,
Speaker 2: violent against their partners, and yet their heart rates would
Speaker 2: barely go up. Yeah, and there's also the cinematic version
Speaker 2: of this would be in Silence and the Lambs. When
Speaker 2: you see doctor Hannibal Lecter, he's you know, sequestered, I
Speaker 2: think a piece of a pen, a writing pen, and
Speaker 2: he's been able to get out of his cuffs and
Speaker 2: get it out of his restraints, and when his meal
Speaker 2: is delivered, he takes down to security guards. But that
Speaker 2: what they do is they do it in slow motion
Speaker 2: to classical music. And I thought that was like, really
Speaker 2: a great artistic expression because it's actually showing as far
Speaker 2: as Hannibal Electu's concerned, he's going in slow motion. You know,
Speaker 2: his system is just down, regulating down, regulating, down, regulating.
Speaker 2: So fascinating stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really is, so just you know, important
Speaker 1: consideration here. Also we have all the other environmental factors
Speaker 1: that we've talked about, you know, the childhood trauma, the abuse,
Speaker 1: the social influences. This could also impact antisocial behavior the
Speaker 1: development of it. But that it is that complex interplay
Speaker 1: between all of those things. Antisocial behavior is not solely
Speaker 1: caused by just those biological factors. Those are important, Those
Speaker 1: are things that we're learning more and more about every
Speaker 1: single day, but as well reference again towards the end.
Speaker 1: Remember there's a multi legged stool here, so we need
Speaker 1: to keep that in mind always.
Speaker 2: So Our next case study begins on April twenty eighth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, when twenty eight year old Martin Bryant
Speaker 2: carried out one of the deadliest mass shootings in modern history,
Speaker 2: killing thirty five people and injuring thirty seven others in
Speaker 2: a historic tourist site of Port Arthur, Tasmania. He provided
Speaker 2: conflicting and confusing accounts of his motivations, with several reports
Speaker 2: suggesting that he craved attention and harbored a deep resentment
Speaker 2: towards those that he felt wronged him. Martin John Bryant
Speaker 2: was born on May seventh, nineteen sixty seven, in Tasmania, Australia,
Speaker 2: to Maurice and Carleen Bryant. He was the eldest of
Speaker 2: two children, and later review and interviews with family, friends
Speaker 2: and neighbors indicated that he displayed odd and troubling behaviors,
Speaker 2: including violence from an early age. He was also noted
Speaker 2: to engage in animal cruelty and bullying of his peers.
Speaker 2: His family life was characterized by emotional detachment and social difficulties.
Speaker 2: His father, Maurice, was known as a hard working and
Speaker 2: quiet man, while his mother, Carlen, was often described in
Speaker 2: news of the day as strict and emotionally distanced. So
Speaker 2: let's be careful. We're not going to go in the
Speaker 2: direction of schizophrenagenic mom shaming. That's not a thing again,
Speaker 2: even if it's been since nineteen ninety six, beginning in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven with his birth, the passage of time
Speaker 2: and the perspective of what we do to win, and
Speaker 2: I feel like we have to just look through this
Speaker 2: through a very careful lens. But I just wanted to
Speaker 2: share with you so people didn't think that we were
Speaker 2: leaving things out intentionally. Bryant's mother stated in a twenty
Speaker 2: eleven interview that when he was very young, she described
Speaker 2: him as annoying and a different child, and often surrounded
Speaker 2: by toys that he had intentionally broken. This is interesting
Speaker 2: to me because on one hand, the media is saying
Speaker 2: that she was cold and distant, and then this can
Speaker 2: also feel like we need to talk about Kevin. Yeah,
Speaker 2: which is Kilda Swinton in that wonderful role in the movie,
Speaker 2: which I know. The book portrays the mother's character as
Speaker 2: having some of her own antisocial tendencies as oh, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: got it, but in the movie it's portrayed as she
Speaker 2: just keeps trying to get the doctors to talk to
Speaker 2: her about her son, trying to get her husband to
Speaker 2: acknowledge that these behaviors are there, and it's all falling
Speaker 2: on deaf ears.
Speaker 1: So as a child, Brian struggled academically and socially. At
Speaker 1: an early age, was diagnosed with an IQ of sixty six,
Speaker 1: which is considered in the range of intellectual disability. He
Speaker 1: was placed in special education classes, where he continued to
Speaker 1: have mental health and behavioral challenges. Teachers that were later
Speaker 1: interviewed offered that Bryant often displayed in appropriate emotional responses,
Speaker 1: sometimes laughing at situations that were serious or even distressing,
Speaker 1: while also exhibiting sudden outbursts that included violence and that
Speaker 1: then made him an outcast among his peers. He was
Speaker 1: reported to have pulled a snorkel from another child's face
Speaker 1: while they were diving and cutting down trees on a
Speaker 1: neighbor's property. So we're already seeing a couple of those
Speaker 1: prongs that we looked at with conduct disorder and then
Speaker 1: antisocial personality disorder. Bryan's behavior became increasingly problematic as he
Speaker 1: grew older, with multiple referrals to professionals for psychiatric treatment
Speaker 1: and it age seventeen, a psychologist described him as quote
Speaker 1: mentally retarded with signs of a severe personality disorder end quote.
Speaker 2: So despite his low intellectual capacity, his poor social skills,
Speaker 2: and ongoing emotional instability, he was able to financially sustain himself,
Speaker 2: coming from disability pension provided by the Australian government. And then,
Speaker 2: in this very very strange turn of events, Bryant became
Speaker 2: friends with an eccentric, wealthy heiress named Helen Harvey, and
Speaker 2: after becoming her gardener, the local authorities discovered that both
Speaker 2: Harvey and her elderly mother were actually in need of
Speaker 2: medical care, so Bryant and his father cleaned up the
Speaker 2: dilapidated mansion for the patron to return from the hospital,
Speaker 2: and in nineteen eighty seven, Bryant was invited allegedly to
Speaker 2: move into her lavish home, where she gave him a
Speaker 2: very extravagant lifestyle, purchasing him expensive clothing and cars and
Speaker 2: all sorts of things, and also allowing him to live
Speaker 2: without any responsibilities. And his father later noted to authorities
Speaker 2: that he was always worried about Bryant's emotional and physical rages,
Speaker 2: so the avoidance of which required his family basically just
Speaker 2: to walk around on eggshells. They all avoided confrontation with
Speaker 2: him from an early age because he would go into
Speaker 2: these rages, and his father went on to say that
Speaker 2: on numerous occasions throughout his childhood, Bryant would threaten to
Speaker 2: go out and shoot people up. So in nineteen ninety two, Harvey,
Speaker 2: his benefactor, died in a car accident, leaving Bryant as
Speaker 2: the sole beneficiary of her will, providing him a mansion
Speaker 2: and assets worth over a million dollars. However, Bryant's mother,
Speaker 2: concerned about his inability to manage finances, was successful in
Speaker 2: petitioning the courts to place his assets under a guardianship,
Speaker 2: giving legal trustees controls over his finances.
Speaker 1: To travel extensively, both with in Australia and internationally with
Speaker 1: his newfound wealth, but continued to struggle with social interactions
Speaker 1: due to his odd behavior. His instability to form meaningful
Speaker 1: relationships or integrate into society led to growing frustrations and
Speaker 1: to his deepening resentment and anger. On April twenty eighth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, Bryant armed himself and went on a
Speaker 1: shooting spree. His victims included a couple who purchased a
Speaker 1: property he had wanted. He then made his way to
Speaker 1: Apport Arthur Historic site and opened fire indiscriminately on tourists
Speaker 1: and staff. The attack continued as he fled the scene,
Speaker 1: continuing to shoot people along the way, before finally barricading
Speaker 1: himself at Seascape Guesthouse, the scene of his initial murder.
Speaker 1: He then held police at bay for eighteen hours with
Speaker 1: the hostage that he later killed. He was sentenced to
Speaker 1: thirty five life sentences without the possibility of parole, and
Speaker 1: the horrific crime ended up being a turning point in
Speaker 1: Australia gun laws. In response to the tragedy, the Howard
Speaker 1: government swiftly implemented sweeping gun control measures, including a ban
Speaker 1: on semi automatic rifles and high capacity shotguns. As well
Speaker 1: as a mandatory gun buyback program that led to the
Speaker 1: destruction of over six hundred and forty thousand firearms, and
Speaker 1: stricter firearm licensing and registration laws. These changes remained some
Speaker 1: of the strictest gun laws in the world, with of
Speaker 1: course ongoing debates about their effectiveness. However, Australia has not
Speaker 1: experienced another mass shooting on the scale of Port Arthur
Speaker 1: since these laws were enacted. So, if one keeps chugging
Speaker 1: down this track that we're on from conduct disorder to
Speaker 1: antisocial personality disorder, we eventually get to psychopathy. And not literally,
Speaker 1: I don't mean that one always leads to the other
Speaker 1: or to the worst disorder, but if it does, this
Speaker 1: is sort of the end of the road.
Speaker 2: This is the last stop.
Speaker 1: So, as we've said before, this is conduct disorder or
Speaker 1: ASPD on steroids.
Speaker 2: So just doing a quick recap since we literally have
Speaker 2: been talking about this topic since episode two. Psychopathy is
Speaker 2: again not a personality disorder per se, and it's not
Speaker 2: listed in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
Speaker 2: But psychopathy is related to antisocial behavior and the diagnosis
Speaker 2: of ASPD, but with additional traits like chronic manipulation, impulsivity,
Speaker 2: lack of empathy, and high risk taking tendencies. So while
Speaker 2: psychopathy is relatively rare in the general population at less
Speaker 2: than one percent, studies suggests that up to twenty percent
Speaker 2: of prison populations meet the criteria and they are responsible
Speaker 2: for around fifty percent of serious crimes. So, again adding
Speaker 2: into the science behind all this, recent research, advances in
Speaker 2: brain imaging and genetics have resulted in studies that confirm
Speaker 2: that psychopathic traits can be inherited, appearing as early as
Speaker 2: childhood and persisting into adulthood with environmental factors such as abuse,
Speaker 2: and like I said earlier, high level acees playing apart
Speaker 2: acees being adverse childhood experiences.
Speaker 1: So remember that three legged stool of brain differences, genetic markers,
Speaker 1: and then severe childhood abuse being the formula for psychopathy
Speaker 1: as we know it today. Scientists have identified specific genes
Speaker 1: that may contribute to antisocial and psychopathic tendencies, especially those
Speaker 1: linked to dopamine, serotonin, and stress response systems. One of
Speaker 1: the most studied is MAOA, a gene involved in regulating neurotransmitters,
Speaker 1: so individuals with a low activity version of this gene
Speaker 1: combined with the stressful or abusive upbringing have been found
Speaker 1: to be at a higher risk for aggression and criminal behavior.
Speaker 1: And then you throw some different brain structure on top
Speaker 1: of that and you have a diagnosis, and then you
Speaker 1: have a recipe for psychopathy. So although we cannot diagnose,
Speaker 1: there is a very well established assessment tool, the Hair
Speaker 1: Psychopathy Checklist revised, that can categorize an individual as psychopathic
Speaker 1: if they receive a score of thirty or above on
Speaker 1: the traits listed on that tool. Okay, so getting into
Speaker 1: a case study for psychopathy. This case is also from Australia.
Speaker 1: Gary David was diagnosed with a personality disorder and additionally
Speaker 1: labeled quote with psychopathic traits at age thirteen. David's childhood
Speaker 1: was filled with criminal activities and violent behaviors. His persistent
Speaker 1: antisocial conduct led to multiple incarcerations and highlighted the severe
Speaker 1: implications of untreated conduct disorder. Gary David was actually Gary
Speaker 1: Webb in nineteen fifty four and had an incredibly rough
Speaker 1: start to his life. His father, Rupert David, was a
Speaker 1: career criminal and known pedophile who spent much of his
Speaker 1: life in and out of prisons, as well as psychiatric institutions.
Speaker 1: His mother, Betty David, struggled with alcoholism, leaving young Gary
Speaker 1: and his siblings to care for themselves, which resulted in Gary,
Speaker 1: at the age of four, along with his siblings, being
Speaker 1: removed from their home and placed into an orphanage, really
Speaker 1: marking the beginning of a childhood that was spent in
Speaker 1: the system. He to this developmental period was instability and
Speaker 1: the abuse he experienced while being shuffled between orphanages, boys' homes,
Speaker 1: and detention centers. By age eleven years old, he was
Speaker 1: already committing minor crimes, including larceny and fraud. However, his
Speaker 1: behavior quickly escalated into more serious offenses, including making threats
Speaker 1: and acts of violence. At thirteen years old, he was
Speaker 1: diagnosed with a personality disorder with psychopathic traits, a label
Speaker 1: that would follow him for the rest of his life.
Speaker 2: As a young adult. Between nineteen seventy six and nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty four, he was admitted to psychiatric facilities on eight
Speaker 2: different occasions. Again, he was diagnosed with ASPD, but with
Speaker 2: a significant difference. They noted he exhibited extreme and frequent
Speaker 2: self harm behaviors, including ingesting razor blades, various forms of
Speaker 2: self mutilation and swallowing corrosive liquids. The attending psychiatric staff
Speaker 2: saw these acts where were a mix of self destructive
Speaker 2: and manipulation due to their occurrences often coinciding when he
Speaker 2: felt ignored or when he felt mistreated. In nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 2: he attempted to rob a pizza restaurant and Rye, Victoria,
Speaker 2: but the attempt quickly escalated into a violent shootout, with
Speaker 2: both the shop owner and a responding officer both being
Speaker 2: severely wounded. David himself was shot in the legs while
Speaker 2: trying to escape. This robbery seemed less about money and
Speaker 2: more about creating chaos, as some believe that David's goldmins
Speaker 2: event was to orchestrate a police shootout. Following his arrest,
Speaker 2: he was sentenced to fourteen years in prison for attempted murder,
Speaker 2: with the continuing of many of his previous expressions of
Speaker 2: self harm or violent outburst orchestrated again in the prison
Speaker 2: system against both staff peers and himself. These behaviors made
Speaker 2: him a major security risk, and prison officials often struggled
Speaker 2: with how to manage him.
Speaker 1: During his incarceration, David spent much of his time writing
Speaker 1: elaborate manifestos about massacres and violent revenge. His works contained
Speaker 1: scenarios that came off like horror movie cliches, while others
Speaker 1: were actually far more chilling in their reality based planning,
Speaker 1: including bombing public buildings, assassinating politicians, poisoning water supplies, and
Speaker 1: mass shootings in crowded areas. One question about these writings,
Speaker 1: David claimed they were part of a therapy exercise and
Speaker 1: not actual plans. By nineteen ninety, govern ment health officials
Speaker 1: officially declared David mentally ill, which then led to a
Speaker 1: legal battle over his psychiatric status. Under the Mental Health
Speaker 1: Act of nineteen eighty six, and again this is in Australia,
Speaker 1: David had the right to appeal his diagnoses, which he
Speaker 1: did multiple times, and in May of nineteen ninety a
Speaker 1: review board ruled that he was not mentally ill, arguing
Speaker 1: that quote a personality disorder was not classified as a
Speaker 1: mental illness under the law. So this decision, as you
Speaker 1: can imagine, spark controversy as many believe David was a
Speaker 1: clear danger to society.
Speaker 2: This is a really great example of where law needs
Speaker 2: to integrate their understanding of mental health a lot better
Speaker 2: than they do. That is something that is ongoing to
Speaker 2: this day in the court systems across this country. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not trying to say that mental health diagnosis is
Speaker 2: a get out of jail free card at all, but
Speaker 2: it really does require sort of a more expansive and
Speaker 2: less less narrow focus on how the judicial system approaches this.
Speaker 2: So on June eleventh, nineteen ninety three, at the age
Speaker 2: of thirty eight, Gary David died by suicide in prison.
Speaker 2: He ingested razor blades, which caused severe internal injuries, leading
Speaker 2: to peritonitis. By the time of his death, he had
Speaker 2: spent thirty three years of his life in various institutions,
Speaker 2: prisons and psychiatric facilities. David's case left a lasting impact
Speaker 2: on Australia's mental health and criminal justice systems. His life
Speaker 2: raised very difficult questions about how to handle individuals with
Speaker 2: extreme personality disorders who do not fit the traditional definitions
Speaker 2: of mental illness but still pose a danger to society.
Speaker 2: His violent fantasies and erratic behavior spark debates about risk management,
Speaker 2: involuntary hospitalization, and criminal responsibility.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, I know that was a quick recap,
Speaker 1: but we've also talked about it a lot, and here
Speaker 1: we've kind of taken this journey again from the previous
Speaker 1: two episodes of looking attachment disorders and now how that
Speaker 1: crosses over into personality disorders, so conduct disorder for people
Speaker 1: under the age of eighteen, then antisocial personality disorders for adults,
Speaker 1: and then the daddy of them all, psychopathy. But we
Speaker 1: want to also touch on a little branch off here
Speaker 1: and back in episode one sixty four, way back in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. I couldn't believe it when I looked
Speaker 1: at when this episode was that it was a leg
Speaker 1: But we focus solely on the subject of childhood psychopathy.
Speaker 1: We are not going to give you another episode to review,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure a lot of you remember it and
Speaker 1: it's there if you guys want to go back. But
Speaker 1: we wanted to sort of recap some of the main
Speaker 1: points because it dovetails nicely into here when we talk
Speaker 1: about how some of these are exhibited and formed in childhood.
Speaker 1: So we have to remember that general misconceptions and cultural
Speaker 1: influences in society have long misunderstood childhood behavior, labeling children
Speaker 1: as both innocent and evil. And then there has always
Speaker 1: been these unrealistic societal expectations that make extreme behaviors and
Speaker 1: children more shocking or a topic to kind of latch onto,
Speaker 1: like think about the super predator fallacy. So we just
Speaker 1: we want to kind of lay that foundation first. Again,
Speaker 1: diagnosing personality disorders before age eighteen is not standard, but
Speaker 1: early behaviors can really indicate future concerns, and many behaviors
Speaker 1: linked to psychopathy are likely to stem from that third
Speaker 1: leg of trauma neglect or the adverse environments.
Speaker 2: Drilling down into the prevalence in children. Just to the stats,
Speaker 2: about one percent of children may exhibit callous and unemotional
Speaker 2: traits in their environment response. And then the DSM five
Speaker 2: now recognize callous and unemotional traits to be a better
Speaker 2: assessment of risk factor. And over fifty studies now confirmed
Speaker 2: that see you traits in children are highly predictive of
Speaker 2: future criminality. Again, we now have the benefit of years
Speaker 2: and years of data to really process and look forward
Speaker 2: to predict. So if we look at this as the
Speaker 2: three factor model of psychopathy development, we have first genetic predisposition, nature,
Speaker 2: environmental influences, nurture. But then that last piece that ties
Speaker 2: in with our previous episodes of attachment theory parental bonding
Speaker 2: and attachment issues. But please keep in mind, folks, eighty
Speaker 2: percent of children with early psychopathic traits do not grow
Speaker 2: into adult psychopaths. That's the silver lining of good knowing
Speaker 2: that early interventions that we have discussed way back in
Speaker 2: previous episodes can have long lasting and significant impact on
Speaker 2: proving that child's possibilities of success.
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good end cap for well,
Speaker 1: one for this episode, but also for all of our episodes.
Speaker 1: When there is early identification, not even early I guess,
Speaker 1: and not necessarily just with disorders in childhood, but when
Speaker 1: there's identification and then intervention, like good intervention, there is
Speaker 1: hope for all of this horrible stuff that we talk about, right,
Speaker 1: whether it's criminal or whether it's just like a toxic
Speaker 1: person in your life. So I kind of love that
Speaker 1: with the worst of the worst that you think of
Speaker 1: childhood psychopathy, eighty percent, I mean, that's a stark statistic
Speaker 1: there that even if they have early psychopathic traits, they're
Speaker 1: not going to grow into adult psychopaths.
Speaker 2: So right, and adding on to that last bit, I
Speaker 2: want people listening to challenge their own assumptions about what
Speaker 2: they can consider to be appropriate parental bonding, or appropriate
Speaker 2: family systems, or appropriate family dynamics. Family is and should
Speaker 2: be a broad term for adults or almost adults who
Speaker 2: are committed to creating a safe and nurturing environment for
Speaker 2: our youth, and that can look very different from street
Speaker 2: to street, from neighborhood to neighborhood, from culture to culture.
Speaker 2: So please don't fall into this rigid sort of binary
Speaker 2: view of that a healthy family dynamic has to look
Speaker 2: like a nineteen fifties version of the nuclear American family,
Speaker 2: because that's not what we're talking about. Even if a
Speaker 2: child lives in the system that is given great containment
Speaker 2: and has great access to mentors and positive role models,
Speaker 2: that can have an absolutely beneficial effect. So let's just
Speaker 2: keep challenging ourselves as we consider this very complex set
Speaker 2: of behaviors and diagnoses.
Speaker 1: As far as entertainment goes, I mean, we've done a
Speaker 1: lot of these and we don't want to keep you guys.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we can just name him off the
Speaker 2: top of our head without a description, right, So yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, feel free to watch the Gagillian versions of The
Speaker 1: Bad Seed or the dozens of the Children of the
Speaker 1: Corn sequels. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the boy, the good Son or the bad Son.
Speaker 2: There's a robot version. What is it? What's the one
Speaker 2: about the killer robot that's protecting her her owner? Megan?
Speaker 1: Oh, Megan, Megan. But I honestly like I had forgotten
Speaker 1: about the good Son. With Macaulay Culkin, it's terrifying. It
Speaker 1: is so chilling because he's the same age as like
Speaker 1: all of his other popular movies in the nineties, you know,
Speaker 1: Home Alone, but he's this little violent psychopath that tortures
Speaker 1: pour a little Elijah.
Speaker 2: Wood, little like angelic Elijah Wood. They both look like
Speaker 2: angels until that one's like very chilling, awesome. Well, thank
Speaker 2: you folks for being so patient with us today. This
Speaker 2: has been a long and very dense episode. I'm sure
Speaker 2: that this will give us the opportunity in a future
Speaker 2: behind the couch to pull in one of our experts
Speaker 2: on this particular issue with children and having to do
Speaker 2: with conduct disorder. That will be a fascinating conversation for sure.
Speaker 1: So happy March everyone, Happy spring break if you have
Speaker 1: that coming up, and we'll see you next time on
Speaker 1: La Not So Confidential.
Speaker 2: Bye bye, folks.
Speaker 1: We sincerely thank you for spending some time with us today.
Speaker 1: La Not So Confidential is part of the crawl Space
Speaker 1: media network. Each episode is hosted, produced, and written by
Speaker 1: doctor Scott and Doctor Shiloh. Our post production, editing and
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