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Speaker 1: Steps stop stop sentences in the box in the st

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st st st steps stop stop, stop stops, stop stops

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to east stopping a step, and stockings stops.

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Speaker 2: At the Brazenski model, the technic crap model is much

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more interested in the incremental.

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Speaker 3: Slow, killed Fabian approach to bringing the technocracy into being.

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So they're not going to send the Homeland security troops

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to round you up and put you in a FEMA camp.

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Speaker 4: They'd much rather promote everybody being in national video games,

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the Disney Gulog, the virtual reality gulog.

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Speaker 3: All this kind of stuff is in much better FEMA

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camp in your home. They don't need the FEMA camp.

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Speaker 4: It's it's too messy, it's a big ordeal, and it's

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all the nonsense of all the patriot crap on the radio.

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That's not gonna happen. They don't need to the shadow

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of the global government is already here. And as you

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said that, it's in the latter stages of the mopping

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up process to move it into the next phase. And

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higg between two pages of the next page.

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Speaker 5: M h.

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Speaker 4: M hmm, what's up? Welcome? Can you hear me? We

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ain't got no sound on you.

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Speaker 5: How about now we do. I can hear you know, yes,

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going on dude?

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Speaker 4: Not much man? How are you?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 5: Pandemic?

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Speaker 4: I feel like I haven't talked to you in a while,

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so I'm glad you're back. It's good.

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Speaker 5: I know, it's always good. I feel like I need

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I need one of these one on one with you,

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like every two months or something. How you do how

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you been doing?

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Speaker 4: I can go one on one. I can beat you

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on horse, I could beat you on one on one.

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I could beat you in any game.

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Speaker 5: Dog, wait till I wait till I get my back drop.

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Speaker 4: Uh, you're gonna have one of those green screens with

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with the books with nineteen ninety three Windows screen savers

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in the background. That'd be sweet, all right?

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Speaker 5: Uh?

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Speaker 4: The crowd, the mob, the mindless mob of nerds that

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are also a high Q high IQ at the same time.

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What's up? Can y'all hear me? Everybody go? Are we good?

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Scam demit jenga scam jinga with Alex Jones eating oysters?

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What's up? I'm just waiting for the nerds to tell

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me that the sound is good, and then we start talking,

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start jawing, you know how it is chat's always a

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little bit behind.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this is like that weird on uh, when talk

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shows were a thing where the guests would be on

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and they just wouldn't talk to each other until the

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you know, the commercial came back.

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Speaker 4: I go on radio shows still and it's like that,

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and it's weird when that happens. They're like, all right,

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you'll be back in five minutes, and then you just

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have to sit there listening to the radio and then

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some weird ad for they.

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Speaker 5: Just don't want to they don't want to miss a

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good sound bite.

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Speaker 4: I think, yeah, makes sense. That's a good point. Any

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think about that. All right, everybody says the sound is good.

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Hopefully more nerds will roll in here. One hundred and fifty. Yeah,

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we will get some nerds in here. Everybody's off doing

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homework because they're nerds. Well, hopefully we're gonna have a

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good show tonight. Because Jimbob has been asking me some

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some fire questions in my inbox. He was blowing me up.

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He's blowing me up in a good way, not in

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a in a mean way, not in a terrorist way,

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philosophy terrorism, blowing me up, asking pretty good questions and

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actually a lot of the questions that Jimbob asked are

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questions that a lot of people kind of ask in

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a not in a I mean, Jimbab wasn't asking dumb questions.

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I'm saying that he was asking them in an intelligent way.

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But a lot of people take the questions that we

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were chatting about the last couple of weeks and they

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run off in a dumb way and they come up

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with dumb ideas, dumb world views, and ridiculous positions. So

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we're gonna hit on some of those, as you can

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tell from the clickbaity retitle that I gave this stream.

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You know, you see these videos about glitches in the matrix,

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you see videos about simulation theory and all kinds of stuff.

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But also a lot of the philosophical questions that jim

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Bob brought up are more high minded that are very relevant,

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like the one in the many, what is that? What

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does that matter? The law of identity, all these kinds

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of things. But before we do that, let's, uh, Jim,

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I'll introduce yourself because we've had a lot of new people.

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I think last time you were here we were at

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fifty thousand, so we're almost at sixty. So it got

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almost ten thousand new So tell everybody about you and

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then what's up? All right?

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Speaker 5: My name is Jimbob. I'm a satirical cartoonist. I'm a

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weekly contributor to The Washington Examiner and author of Savage Means,

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Volume one and volume two, which features a Courunka time capsule.

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I'm glad that Kurunka happened because it gave me a

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delay production time, and it enabled me to include a

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lot of ridiculousness that we all shared in the last

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couple of months. So yeah, I'm you know, I'm new

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to back to theism after fifteen year hedonistic, atheistic, relativist

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stunt in LA and very new to philosophy and logic,

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you know, like properly, you know, just just really getting

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into it. And I just absolutely love it. And Jay,

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You've been a big influence on me in that regard.

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Speaker 4: Hey, man, I'm honored you are a stellar comedian, a

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stellar wit. I mean, the memes that you put out.

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I'm envious of the skill that you have in memory.

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I wish I was as good as you putting all

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that stuff out. So you're using your logic in the

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right way in terms of affecting the culture. So yes,

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the last few times we talked, well, last time we

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were just clowning around on the fifty k stream. But

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now we want to talk about maybe stuff that's a

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little more serious. And I think the previous two streams

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that you and I did they were fairly serious. We

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talked about you know, Darwinism, pan sperm, you know, these

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kind of stupid ideas, materialism, metaphysics. Where do you want

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to start? I think the last the first thing that

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you had brought up was something like the simulation theory

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or no multiverse, which we want to start with, and

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we can we can launch off into that.

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Speaker 5: I guess we can start there. I mean multiverse, simulation theory,

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why use of logic you know, contrasts or conflicts with

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the theory itself and why it's a problem, and uh,

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you know, I just got into certain not full debates,

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just like you know, banter back and forth, and that

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came up and it seemed pretty clear to me. But

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I also just I also ask you these things to

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get to the real root philosophically and logically, to see

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if I'm on track so far as discerning why it

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doesn't work well, like why it doesn't work at all.

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And so as you said it, I think you believe.

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I don't know if that was the question you said it,

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it violates the law of identity. Was that that question?

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Was that the case?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So, and let me remind the audience too that

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if you if you see the link that I put

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up multiple times. So obviously we don't have super chats

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here anymore directly on my channel, but if you do

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want to ask us questions and super chat, you do

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it through stream Labs. So there's the stream labs link

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and that'll all be should come up on the screen,

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you know, that little gay running dude should pop up.

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See that bunch of nonsense. Jennifer. What's up, Jennifer? She

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she donated sometimes it works. There we go, she sent

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twenty Yes, there we go. So get the super chat

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turn a minute, and of course you can ask a

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question there. You don't have to just donate. You can

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type in your question or whatnot. But shout out to

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Jennifer for that twenty dollars. So, yeah, that's a good

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place to start. Let's start with. Okay, so simulation theory

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everybody's talking about, or there was a multiverse. I've already

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forgotten what we did.

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Speaker 5: It was simulation. And actually I'll just start with also,

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you know, I just posted that on the on my

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Instagram account that that was going to be, uh, one

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of the the things we're discussing, and someone said, you know,

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I they were like, simulation theories real, and I said, no,

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it's not. And then he said that's something a simulation

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would say, and I said, you wouldn't know what a

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simulation would say unless you knew you were standing outside

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of it. Yeah, because I think that really gets to

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the crux of it is that, at least from my perspective,

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just using very basic reasoning, is that you could never

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you'd always have to appeal outside of it, like a

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lot of things like you know, how would you know,

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how would you know you were outside of it? How

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do you know the simulation isn't three simulations or a

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thousand and so that's just very basic level starting point

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for me, where I'm like, you know, it's just endless

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regress in a way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. The easiest way to refute this one, and this

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is a common one that you see kind of we

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live in the matrix, you know, if you go to

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philosophy one on one dudes ask this question. If you

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think about this, we'll break out the whiteboard here. So

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let's take this proposition reality is illusory. Right, So it's

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a universal claim. It's a claim about all states of affairs.

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Everything is an illusion. We all live in the matrix.

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These are what are called universal claims universal statements, and

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whenever you put in every or an all in front

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of something, that's called a universal quantifier and logic, and

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that is a really strong, vast claim. It's a claim that,

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I mean, there's a lot of weight behind this. This

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is not like saying, you know, I think you know,

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I think Paul McCarty might be you know, a clone, right,

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I think Jennifer Garner was in the CIA.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: These are really strong claims because they they are about

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universal state of affairs. So if we think about reality

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is illusory, main, the easiest you've hit on it, You've

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said it, right. The easiest way to refute this kind

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of basic level mistake is to just point out that

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if that's the case, we're going to do a reduct yo, right,

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reductio ad absurdum. That is one of the strongest ways

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to refute things is to reduce the position to absurdity

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reductio ad absurdum. So the position reduces to pure absurdity.

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It's self contradictory at a fundamental level. And so we're

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going to say that this proposition is a reductio adum.

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Why is that the case. Well, the easiest way to

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show that is to just point out that if all

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of reality is illusory, then this truth came to you

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via your experience of reality. So this truth proposition is

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also part of the illusion and therefore self refuting. It's

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that easy. So at a fundamental level, it just breaks

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down to nonsense. And so this is a metaphysical nonsense claim.

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And likewise, it also relates to epistemology because it says

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reality is, so it's a predicating a state of affairs

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to something in the world. So it's a pistemology as well.

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And we're not directly dealing with ethics, but you could

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flesh out ethical implications from this.

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Speaker 5: Right And then, I mean, the simulation could just as

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easily be called metaverse in a way. It's just these

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kind of wider terms. I was having a conversation with

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someone who was actually a theist and then returned back

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to I mean, you know resting on atheism now, and

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I was confronting him about logic and how it's not

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justified under his worldview, and then he went into the

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kind of the dilla Honey and many others go down

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this route where they start questioning whether logic is even absolute.

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There could be a universe where it doesn't exist, doesn't

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apply the same way as well as mathematics and other

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absolutes that we use today to discern and apprehend truth

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and reality. And I thought about that, and because I'm visual,

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I explained to him that if you draw a circle

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and the circle is our universe, what we know how

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we get to know those things logic, reasoning, and you're

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able to actually locate this other universe that doesn't operate

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the same way, you wouldn't be able to actually locate it,

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isolate it unless it then suddenly was in pulled inside

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that first circle. I just said, So, in other words,

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you'd have to use you'd have to appeal to logic

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and reasoning and all of the laws we know to

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even earn another universe that doesn't operate the same way.

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But by default you're pulling that universe into our existence.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 5: And that was a way that visually kind of refuted

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him because he couldn't have an answer because the only

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way to get an answer is to assume what we've

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been given logic and reasoning, and you just can't. The

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only way they could be right about a multiverse is

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if you could never know it exists at all. That's

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the only way it could exist. But you could never

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get to it because you're pulling it into our paradigm.

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And so that kind of made sense to me, and

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I was like, oh, that was an eat. That was

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a pretty easy way to kind of just keep that

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theory in its place, like in the here and now,

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because a lot of times those arguments and theories go

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down to the basement where people are smoking bonds and

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they just go they never take a strict logical, you know,

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ridicule approach to it, and then because that would be

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over and then the party would be over, and then

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be like, why are you ruining my high dude?

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Speaker 4: Exactly right, let's break this down. This is an easy way.

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This is a good way to go about this is

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just look at this ridiculous phrase and claim, and we'll

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notice how many, how many, how easy it is to

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debunk this. So let's take the proposition reality is illusion reality. Okay,

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this is what exactly right? The phrase assumes already some

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kind of metaphysics, some kind of statement of existence, that

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things are out there they have being, or or even

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if you think that everything is just a manifestation of

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your mind, or maybe everything is a manifestation of my butt. Right,

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could all of reality just be a man? Why does

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it have to be my mind? Why is mind higher

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than butt on the scale of reality? Right on the

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scale the totem pole of being. Maybe butts are higher

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on the totem pole of being and everything's just upside

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down and we don't realize it yet. But we don't

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know because we're just assuming. Right, we're starting with something

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that we think is an easy place to ground and

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start everything. Oh reality, We all know what reality is, really,

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do we? I mean, philosophers have been debating reality for millennia.

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Do we all have a common sense idea of what

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reality is? I don't think we do, because what reality

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is is going to be. It's going to be determined

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by our worldview as a whole.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: That's why if you're a rank materialist, you have a

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different worldview from a person who's a theist. Right matter,

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reality is different, you think it's two different things. Is

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And by the way, if there's a multiverse, then there

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actually is a whole dimension that's just butt. I mean,

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there's literally everything. There's a whole fart dimension, right, Yeah,

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literally the whole dimension is farts. There's also a dimension

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where it's just me and a part. There's also a

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dimension of me, you and a fart and a butt

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on ad infinitum. And then let's look at is is

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a statement of predication in terms of you know, sentences,

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it's also a statement of being here. So ironically, what

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the people who say this kind of stuff, they don't

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realize that this is more than just a sentence. It's

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also making a sentence about a state of affairs or

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a state of being. It's assuming again that something exists,

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even if you think that it's just your mind, it's

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still saying that something has this feature, has this property.

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Speaker 7: It is right.

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Speaker 4: And then when we come to the question of the

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statement illusion, the problem with this is that in our

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common understanding, if we were to use that in like

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a colloquial sense of illusion, I mean, you could debate

303
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what illusions are, but in the colloquial sense. If you're

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going to try to convey meaning with this sentence, most

305
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people think of illusion as contrasted to the real. Right, Well, now,

306
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wait a minute, reality is contrasted to the real. That

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makes no sense, you see it, right, So once again

308
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we see that at a fundamental level, this not only

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assumes so many things that it hasn't justified. It's really

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just nonsense speak. It's just gibberish. Right, And beyond this,

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we could also deconstruct this on a grammar or a

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philosophy of language level. Right, we're looking at the statement

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as it is here in terms of assuming that it

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actually is telling us something true about some world or

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some existence or some state of affairs. We could also

316
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deconstruct this at a linguistic sentence level, right, because this

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is some guy in your philosophy class who just watched

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the matrix and smoke some you know, DMT, Right, he

319
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,000
thinks reality is illusion. Wait a minute, bro, if you're

320
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going to make a meaningful statement like that, let's boil

321
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this down and let's do you realize that you're assuming

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that words have meaning. That's actually a prior assumption to

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the actual statement of metaphysics in the sentence, you see.

324
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So he's assuming that the R and the E and

325
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the A and the L and the subject the predicate right,

326
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that these are meaningful things in sentences, you see.

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Speaker 5: Right, And if he was, if he was going to

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be really consistent with his worldview, he would just say

329
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like exactly, and then it would defend it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, even Kant I think, made a joke about

331
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this that a lot of this kind of stuff is

332
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just farting upwards, meaning from right.

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Speaker 5: And then you see how the farting upwards is just

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uh rampant in all aspects of culture and life, and like,

335
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you know, it's just borrowed, you know, the same ridiculous

336
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self refuting stuff. You know, one of the things that

337
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pissed me off when usually pisses me off when people

338
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get on Joe Rogan. That's why I'm hoping you eventually

339
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get on there, because you actually combat or use logic

340
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and reasoning in a philosophical way to put a lot

341
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of things just at a halt. You just can't run

342
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away with these things. And and there's a lot of

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runaway conversations there. And you know when when when Dawkins

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was like.

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Speaker 8: The teaching little children there going to burn in hell

346
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is absolutely immoral, but of.

347
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Speaker 4: Course it's okay to eat the children. There's nothing wrong

348
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with the children. There's nothing wrong with touching the butts

349
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and eating children.

350
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Speaker 5: And then I'm just like, you know, Joe is you know,

351
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wherever he is, he's not, he's not present. To just

352
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be like, wait, you just you don't you believe in

353
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a universe that's just not basically non existent, just material matter,

354
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infinite void of nothingness, pitiless now pitiless, And then how

355
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could you why you're using the word moral. It's insane

356
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to me, you know, it's absolutely obsane. But they get

357
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away with it. And it's just the one thing that

358
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gets me mad. It's not that they do it, it's

359
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:10,400
that they there's no one there to just be like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

360
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hold on a second.

361
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Speaker 4: Right, I think, yeah, don't forget that other there's quite

362
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a wide concatenation of ridiculous worldviews that have appeared. I mean,

363
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,000
Ben Gertzel was on, We're all just a bunch of

364
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,480
molecules in different formations, man, and it's all just chaos

365
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and meaningful. There's nothing more than molecules in motion man

366
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literally what he says right, which is total incoherence. But

367
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the another thing I wanted to point out about simulation

368
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theory itself is, and I have read some stuff on this,

369
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I've looked at different people's analyzes, and when at first

370
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was kind of getting popular around two thousand thirteen fourteen.

371
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I mean, I know it's existed prior to that, but

372
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you started seeing people talk about it on the line.

373
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I heard Joe Rogan mention it back then, and other

374
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people that would be featured at like Ted talks and

375
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,880
this kind of stuff, right, And one of the things

376
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,559
that they proposed was a, oh, there's a study. Some

377
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:14,400
universities somewhere did a study Dutch or something I don't

378
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:20,359
know about how they studied how light, you know, moves

379
00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:22,559
in space or something like that, and it has this

380
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,160
sort of phased array or something to it to where

381
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,319
it has actual kind of like structure to it. So

382
00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:33,400
light has a structure to it. Therefore, if all the

383
00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:36,240
reality is kind of known via light, there must be

384
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some kind of like structure. And they said the structure

385
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:42,920
was similar to the way computers have you know, bits

386
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:45,680
or whatever, like you know o'sen ones and o's and

387
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,920
ones and osen ones, right, So they were making this analogy.

388
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,599
Oh look, see the binary aspect of computers is very

389
00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:56,359
similar to the structure of how light diffuses or something

390
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,559
like this. That's this was the argument in this paper,

391
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,480
right anyway, point being the way that I interpret that

392
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:06,720
data is going to be determined by kind of my

393
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,440
again governing assumptions, and so as a theist, for example,

394
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,880
I might just as well assume that the the universe

395
00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:19,519
was created to have these features that are similar between

396
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,920
the way bites and binary work in a computer and

397
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,680
the way we experience the natural tactile world. Right, So

398
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,960
there's nothing about the natural tactile world having this sort

399
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,000
of ordered structure to it that negates that it was

400
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:40,799
a creator. Similarly, RNA DNA, there's nothing about that that

401
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,920
doesn't demonstrate that there was a creator of the animals

402
00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,279
or humans or life, you know, biological life.

403
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 6: Right.

404
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:51,599
Speaker 4: So, in other words, I can have the same data

405
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,599
put in front of me. This in philosophy it's called

406
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,759
the underdetermination of data. Simply having data is not necessarily

407
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:00,720
going to give you the correct interpretation of that data.

408
00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:03,720
This is again it's a well known notorious problem in

409
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,880
the history of epistemology, and anyone who studies philosophy science

410
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,480
knows about this. So I can just invoke the underdetermination

411
00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:14,319
of data to point out that sim theory itself does

412
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,599
not actually tell you how the universe was constructed. If

413
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,839
it was constructed, but what do all those people say, aliens? Dude,

414
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,279
we're in like aliens, the matrix that the aliens put together. Man, Look,

415
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,920
well what I thought creator was irrational by the way, Oh,

416
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,400
but not if it's aliens, you see.

417
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,759
Speaker 5: Yeah. Similarly, dude, there's you know, there's infinite amount of universes,

418
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,279
and there's an infinite amount of possible universes where we exist.

419
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,119
And you're like, well, is it possible that one of

420
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,440
those universes has a creator? God? No, dude, that's crazy. Man,

421
00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:52,000
you're just ruining my high.

422
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 4: Man, right.

423
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:55,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, So.

424
00:27:58,519 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 4: I was trying to think of it there under We

425
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,079
had a few streams with Father Deacon and and Ayas

426
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,279
where we and I actually mentioned this one to Stefan.

427
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:13,720
This was one of the problems of epistemology, that what

428
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,640
happens is that you get a theory or you get

429
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,759
a discovery, and it sounds and I mean entirely it

430
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,440
could be true. I don't know. There's also obviously fakery

431
00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:26,519
and science as well. But let's assume that the study

432
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,839
is correct and you get you know, light has this property.

433
00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:33,799
How do you know that light having that property? That's

434
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,119
not going to tell you anything one way or the

435
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,799
other about the grand structure of reality as a whole,

436
00:28:40,839 --> 00:28:45,319
per se, right, or the origin of cosmology or the

437
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,319
origin of man. Right, just like when you look at

438
00:28:48,359 --> 00:28:51,680
an earthworm and when you study biology, it doesn't tell

439
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,039
you about what happened millions of years ago supposedly when

440
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,759
this supposedly just popped into existence. So there's all these leaps.

441
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,279
That's the point here, is that under determination of data

442
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:09,720
is calling out the non sequitor leaps that the science

443
00:29:09,799 --> 00:29:15,000
quote unquote community often does unknowingly or without any reflection.

444
00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:19,240
Or you know, well, look there's similarity between monkey and chimp.

445
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,240
Excuse me, between man and monkey? Right, what is it?

446
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,079
Ninety ninety percent similarity? Therefore it must all be the

447
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,640
common same common ancestor.

448
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 5: Right, Why can't like.

449
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,359
Speaker 4: God create two different species with similar DNA? You see?

450
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,359
So in other words, it's really just depending on the

451
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:38,759
presupposition At the point.

452
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,279
Speaker 5: Right, there seems to be like there's the ought the

453
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,279
is ought fallacy, or more technically that was it, the

454
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,960
naturalistic fallacy. Yeah, like it's cousin or whatever it seems

455
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,480
to be an an aught is is ought, and then

456
00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:58,119
there's like an is was fallacy, Like you just you

457
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,160
look at what is and then you just assume what was,

458
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:07,480
similarly to assuming what ought, and it's all just assuming

459
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:11,680
based on nothing, like you know, like bird. You know,

460
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,440
people think certain things have the same ancestors because they

461
00:30:17,599 --> 00:30:22,480
have the same functions in their biology, like wings, and

462
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,920
you're just like, no, they have the same functions because

463
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,799
they provide the same advantage to that thing. It doesn't

464
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,400
mean they're connected just because they're you know what I mean.

465
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:38,559
So yeah, that that yeah that Speaking of the presupposition,

466
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,960
I was in a debate with someone I think is

467
00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:47,319
I think his account name was debate Me, and we

468
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:50,559
talked about, you know, logic, and I confronted them on

469
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,960
all that. And then this is another question I asked you,

470
00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:56,960
is that when someone you confront someone and they can't

471
00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:00,920
justify logic, but they presuppose it, and they say, well,

472
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:05,920
you're just presupposing God. And then you get into you know, whatever,

473
00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:13,039
girdles incompleteness and you justify circularity. Is it just a standstill?

474
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,799
Always like, is there any other move when you both

475
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,039
establish that you're both presupposing Because I was under the

476
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:28,079
impression from his statements that you don't need to justify

477
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,759
a presupposition, like ideally you you move to and you

478
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,000
want to, but you can just leave it there and

479
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:38,319
that's it. And I was like, maybe I'm you know,

480
00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:42,400
I'm not studied enough to you know, take him on that,

481
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,680
because I just couldn't, I couldn't get past it. I

482
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:48,640
was just like, yeah, I guess we're at a standstill.

483
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920
If you're just gonna presuppose logic without justifying it, and

484
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:58,519
I'm presupposing God to justify logic, then we're both presupposing something.

485
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:04,240
I just ended with it. My my pre's up supposition

486
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,720
makes logic coherent, makes meaning coherent, makes all these other

487
00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:12,160
things coherent. Yours is just kind of left in the open,

488
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,359
and that is the best I can do.

489
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 4: Great question. This actually comes up a lot, especially in

490
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:22,240
our discord. We get this one a lot. One thing

491
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:25,799
what I mentioned was Ernest Hackel. He's another great example

492
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,960
of this fallacy of like similarity and oh, that looks

493
00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:32,559
kind of like this. Therefore common origin, right, everybody knows

494
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,319
that hopefully you know now that this you know famous.

495
00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:42,359
He was basically the Darwin Darwin's evangelist to Europe is

496
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,519
what he's known about, Ernest Hackel, And he was exposed

497
00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:47,200
as a huge fraud because he actually just made up

498
00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:50,720
the drawings of the zygoats. So he actually doctored the

499
00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:53,759
zygos to make them all look the same, to say, oh, look,

500
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:58,039
the zygoat of you know, this reptile is the same

501
00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,240
as a human and they look the same. And actually

502
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,680
they don't look the same. But so he lied first

503
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,920
of all. But even the similarities that they have, right,

504
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:09,200
this has actually been debunked. Nobody believes in ontogeny anymore.

505
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,440
It's just a thing he made up, totally debunked, discarded,

506
00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:15,559
and it was all based on his made up drawings.

507
00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:19,200
So I mean, and that's not one. There's many, many

508
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:23,640
examples amongst the history of the Darwinists that are are

509
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,119
full of fraud, right hilt down there and all that stuff.

510
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,319
But on the question of coherence. Oh, the other thing

511
00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:32,559
I was going to say is that you can think

512
00:33:32,559 --> 00:33:35,000
about like a penny too like if I find a

513
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:40,319
penny and it has Abraham Lincoln's you know, image stamped

514
00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:43,799
onto it, I wouldn't therefore conclude that pennies in Abraham

515
00:33:43,839 --> 00:33:46,680
Lincoln come from the same ancestor, you see, right, But

516
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:50,519
that's how silly. This this you know, morphology is between

517
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:54,240
the assumption of the assumptions of the tree of life,

518
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:55,960
basically within the Darwinian scheme.

519
00:33:56,839 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's funny the scribbles you mentioned, because that's like, uh,

520
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:06,680
it reminds me of like, uh, you know, just like

521
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:09,119
the idea that you can scribble anything and it looks

522
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,480
like a mad genius like you know journal you know,

523
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,719
like you look at like old scribblings from like you know,

524
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,920
Jordan Peterson where you're just like it.

525
00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:19,519
Speaker 9: And then there's a dragon and then and then this

526
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,000
has meaning because you know, there's another snake up there

527
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:24,320
and they're fighting.

528
00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 5: And people are just drawn into the child like wonder

529
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,760
that they once had alone.

530
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:37,039
Speaker 4: Seven Miles the West is the best exactly chicken style, right,

531
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:38,880
like just Jim Morrison's.

532
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,559
Speaker 5: Just yeah, exactly, just saying stuff ejaculations of nonsense. That's

533
00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:43,480
how I'm gonna get them.

534
00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 9: I'm just gonna make a maps of meaning out of

535
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,000
doodles and then and then I'll sell out stadiums.

536
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:58,199
Speaker 4: Okay, So back to your question, what happens when people say, well,

537
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,360
if you have presuppositions, I have presubsisition as the reread

538
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,599
to standstill because we all have presubositions and we just

539
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,239
chose different ones. Actually, we did not choose different ones,

540
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,039
so we're both choosing presubsitions. You could say, I mean

541
00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:15,960
some of them were forced to. We don't necessarily choose them,

542
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,079
although you could choose theoretically bad presubpositions, I guess. But

543
00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:23,880
for people who are not intentionally being incoherent, we all

544
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:28,719
kind of are forced to some similar presubositions or approaches

545
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,480
to things.

546
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 6: In the world.

547
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,079
Speaker 4: And this is why, for one, you don't actually have

548
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,039
to refute every worldview. This is another common question that

549
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:38,920
people ask. It's like, well, how do you know that

550
00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:42,639
there's not a worldview out there that you haven't heard

551
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,000
yet that doesn't actually have a coherent answer to the

552
00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:48,000
questions that you bring up. Well, that's because when we

553
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:52,800
look at philosophy and the three disciplines of philosophy right epistemology, ethics, metaphysics,

554
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,280
there's actually a limited number of places that you can

555
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,159
go in each of those you see, So there's not

556
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,400
actually an infinite number of vas of worldviews, there's actually

557
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:07,039
a very few. There's actually a very few number of

558
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:11,159
places that you can go within each domain. So, for example,

559
00:36:11,199 --> 00:36:14,199
in metaphysics, right, I could ask basic questions like we

560
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,000
started this show off with, like how do we know

561
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:18,320
reality isn't just an illusion?

562
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:18,599
Speaker 5: Right?

563
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,199
Speaker 4: So we're asking a question about metaphysics that that we're

564
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,239
actually limited in how many places we could go. Right,

565
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,599
we could say it's either illusory or in some sense

566
00:36:26,679 --> 00:36:29,800
it's real or not illusory. Right, there's two options there. Well,

567
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,519
once we say that it's real, we're again limiting the

568
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:34,719
number of commitments and places that we can go. In

569
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,119
the next step and we say, well, there's all reality

570
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,760
matter or is it also matter in something else?

571
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:41,119
Speaker 1: Right?

572
00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:45,559
Speaker 4: If all reality is matter, then we're reduced again back

573
00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:51,079
to contradictory fundamental presubsitional mistakes. So we can't go with

574
00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:53,599
pure materialism, and the same will go with ethics. Right,

575
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:55,920
you have to have there's a limited number of steps.

576
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,239
And if you say ethics, all ethics is relative or

577
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,760
it's not relative, right either? Ors here, if all ethics

578
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,079
is relative, then there's again nothing ethical and everything is

579
00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:09,119
just subjective taste that's self reputing. So we know that

580
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:13,519
there are objective truths or ethics in some sense, therefore

581
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,599
we move in that. So there's again limited numbers of

582
00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:19,280
ways that each of the branches can even go. So

583
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,480
there's actually not an infinite number of world views. Now

584
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:26,840
there's variations down the line in terms of world views

585
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,880
with crazy stuff like, oh, I believe the Jim Jones

586
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,519
worldview that the universe is literally a fart. That's what

587
00:37:34,639 --> 00:37:36,559
he said. By the way, that's actually the Jim Jones,

588
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,559
this Jim Jones apologetics. It fits in well with our

589
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:44,400
original drawing that we had that the fart universe. But

590
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,639
even in the Jim Jones world view, that was a

591
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,400
thing that was something that he proposed kind of down

592
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,079
the line, right, So there was all these other things

593
00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:52,039
that like he believed in you had to do this,

594
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,320
you have to do there's objective truth and it's whatever

595
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,039
Jim Jones says this kind of stuff.

596
00:37:57,079 --> 00:37:57,199
Speaker 1: Right.

597
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 4: So again, even if it's the craziest cult, there's still

598
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,360
a basic fundamental structure and pattern to that system or

599
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,599
that worldview, and that's going to be the case for anybody.

600
00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:09,440
Every human being is limited in the number of places

601
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:12,800
that they can go in their worldview. So when we're

602
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,119
engaging with a guy who says, well, whatever, dude, like,

603
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:19,679
you know, you have your presupposition of God and that's

604
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,039
a circle. I have my presupposition of what did you say,

605
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:23,559
logic and that's a circle.

606
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so logic.

607
00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:29,079
Speaker 4: Our presubposition of God is the presubosition of logic. So

608
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,079
so in our system we kind of have if you

609
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,760
if you think of it as a web or it

610
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,400
will say the web, will put God here in the middle,

611
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,480
will put all of the other things that extend out

612
00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:43,440
of the presupposition on the web of beliefs here at

613
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,840
the federal web. Real quick, so we've got we'll say,

614
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,440
at the center of the web, just for the sake

615
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,320
of analogy, here we'll say God. And then we've got

616
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,079
things out here like we've got logic, we've got ethics,

617
00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:59,400
we've got you know, belief in things like mathematics. Uh,

618
00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:03,519
you know they're the external world love, right, I mean

619
00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:05,119
you could you put anything out here that you that

620
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,760
are part of your web of beliefs. Okay, Now, in

621
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,199
this structure. What we're looking at is that this system

622
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,960
will be coherent, not just because we are saying that

623
00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:17,440
God is at the center of it.

624
00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 6: Right.

625
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,599
Speaker 4: We're not saying, oh, it's true because God and God

626
00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:23,400
says it's true. What we're saying is that all of

627
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,519
this coheres in a sensible way as an entire system.

628
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:28,800
And by the way, that doesn't mean that we know

629
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,639
everything about the system, because actually no system can tell

630
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:35,159
you everything about the system. Right, So let's say that

631
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,880
we'll use M here, right, We'll put M at different

632
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,360
places in the system for for mystery. Right, there are

633
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,639
aspects of reality which are mysterious. We might make discoveries,

634
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,360
learn new facts and that becomes no longer a mystery.

635
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:51,400
But there's always some aspect of mystery within any system.

636
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,159
That doesn't mean that the system as a whole is incoherent,

637
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,079
because we could have a system where mystery is actually

638
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,719
a component in the system. May not be everything, but

639
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,039
it can be a component. And by the way, guess what,

640
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,760
that's a feature of everybody's worldview. Everybody's worldview, because of

641
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:12,719
human limitations, necessarily has some degree of paradox, limitation, finitude,

642
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,119
and mystery. It's impossible. So that's actually a little game

643
00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:18,800
that atheist will play. Oftentimes we'll try to say, well,

644
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,519
if you can't explain every single thing to me right here,

645
00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:25,679
right now, bro, I don't have to believe your worldview.

646
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,039
Oh really, well, then I don't also have to believe

647
00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:31,159
your worldview because nobody can do that. That's an irrational,

648
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,880
impossible requirement. So what we're looking for is a again, coherence.

649
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,400
What does coherence have? Assumptions? Absolutely it does. But again,

650
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,760
what we're arguing is that it's a thing that's unavoidable. Right,

651
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,400
It's kind of like those other basic things that metaphysics

652
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,320
or ethics. Once we deny those, the whole thing falls apart.

653
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:55,400
If we deny coherence, which I guess theoretically you could

654
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,320
you could say, well I don't believe in coherence. Well

655
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,280
then you just refuted your own sentence because it requires

656
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:08,239
different levels of coherence within language, lexicons, definitions, sentenced grammar. Right,

657
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,920
all of those things required coherence. So let's look at

658
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:13,320
So that's our system. They may not like it, you

659
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,280
may not like it, but that's how it kind of

660
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,719
holds and stands and fits together. But the other system

661
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,760
is going to be different. It's going to have. If

662
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,079
we want to put it as the same model, we'll

663
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:32,079
put dudebro here at the center of it. And he's

664
00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:33,559
got a web of beliefs.

665
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 2: That he has.

666
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: But his web of beliefs are just there, dude, Like,

667
00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:44,679
there's no rational coherence that links logic so called, to

668
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,119
anything else or to him. He might he might try

669
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:53,320
to say that there's a link between those things, but

670
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,280
he can't actually explain how the two link or relate

671
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,800
together at all. For example, things like causation. Let's take

672
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:06,039
a us simple thing like causality or ethics or love

673
00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:09,639
or logic. All right, so let's say this was like

674
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,639
a giant cookie with a dude in the middle. It's

675
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:13,559
not that's a cookie you get at the malls, nasty

676
00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:16,920
mall cookies that are huge. It's a worldview sized cookie

677
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,519
from the mall. Dude. So here's dude bro in the middle.

678
00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:20,800
He's got I.

679
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 7: Believe in logic, Dude, Well, I believe in there's so

680
00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:24,880
caind of ethics.

681
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:25,039
Speaker 5: Bro.

682
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 4: I believe in cause and effect.

683
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: Dude.

684
00:42:28,199 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 7: I believe in numbers. There's like numbers or whatever. Oh,

685
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,440
I believe in the love, dude. Love wounds man right,

686
00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:38,840
So you've got a dude bro and just these things.

687
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,880
He says, Okay, this is his world. So what we're

688
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,880
doing here, we're not just saying that God therefore true.

689
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:52,760
We're saying, let's compare this worldview to this one. This

690
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,480
one again, we may not like it, but we're not

691
00:42:55,599 --> 00:42:57,559
here to pick out which ones we like.

692
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 4: That has nothing to do with I mean, there's a

693
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,119
lot of things we don't like, but that is mean

694
00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:02,519
that they're not true or that they're not facts. Right,

695
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,599
But this one doesn't even get off the ground. Because

696
00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:08,800
let's say that there is causation. How does this dude

697
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,239
have any connection to or know what causation is in

698
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,840
the external world? How does he know there's an external world?

699
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,599
How does he know who dude bro is? Is dudebro?

700
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,039
Even a self? We don't even know this yet. What

701
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,000
is a self? Where does it come from?

702
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:21,599
Speaker 6: Right?

703
00:43:21,679 --> 00:43:26,119
Speaker 4: How does there is there a connection between love and ethics,

704
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:30,679
or between love and logic, or between causation and math.

705
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,599
We don't know, right, But it's just assumed. It's just

706
00:43:33,639 --> 00:43:36,480
stated to be the case. It's all at hoc. And

707
00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:40,719
what you will notice is that constantly these guys will

708
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,239
just refer to it just is Bro. The whole system

709
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,400
will constantly be at hoc at every level, and that's

710
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,239
why you have to constantly call them out on all

711
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,000
these different assertions, right, because it's like, well, just give

712
00:43:54,039 --> 00:43:56,480
me this, this, this, this, this, and my world free

713
00:43:56,559 --> 00:43:59,840
works no any of those things, because all those things

714
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:03,159
you want me to give you actually only makes sense

715
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:04,760
in this world view.

716
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 5: Right, And even how you drew it, the logical end

717
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,639
is solubism, which is accurate to the drawing. But I

718
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,079
also noticed that, not that this is an argument for it,

719
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:18,679
for it being true, but you could take his circle

720
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,599
and anyone's circle who looks like that and put it

721
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,800
in the upper one and it would make sense, yeah exactly.

722
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,360
But you can't put us Jay or Jimbob in his

723
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:30,599
circle and it makes sense, you know what I mean, right,

724
00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:31,719
And we can't be placed in that.

725
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 4: The sub positional argument is saying that that bottom circle

726
00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:38,679
is just a copy paste rip off of the top circle,

727
00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:41,400
and it's trying to get rid of the centerpiece of

728
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,000
that circle. Put himself in there in the god position, right,

729
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:46,320
do Bros? The God?

730
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:46,639
Speaker 1: Right?

731
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:47,159
Speaker 4: Right?

732
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:50,519
Speaker 5: That's why I always uh when I argue I don't

733
00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:53,880
skip right to God. I feel like it's a necessary

734
00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:57,360
step to get to a mind, to connect.

735
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,159
Speaker 4: You can have people and go that way.

736
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 5: In terms of the progress, it's a longer it's a

737
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:04,960
longer move, I guess you would call it. You would say,

738
00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:10,039
but it's like, uh, people general, they just can't refute that.

739
00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:18,800
Concepts and laws and truth, knowledge, reasoning, logic, math, these

740
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,639
things that we can. We can get an atheist to say, no,

741
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,400
we didn't invent these. I admit we didn't invent these.

742
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,920
Some will say they we did invent them. Some say

743
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,599
it's no, it's in our genetics. Man, it's just And

744
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,960
I'm like, where where is truth found in biology? Like

745
00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:39,280
show me truth, Like show me the concept truth, show

746
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,639
me morality in your body.

747
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 6: You know.

748
00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 5: But once they admit that their concepts and that their

749
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:51,480
absolute concepts, they at least, i mean, if they're open

750
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,760
can get to a mind. At least they will go

751
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,400
to aliens, They will go to is it it's ai mind? Maybe?

752
00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,519
Then it's like fine, go there, but don't but don't

753
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:04,400
stay where you're at. Don't stay in that really super

754
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,880
incoherent place without even trying to travel toward coherency or truth,

755
00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:12,599
because that's just the worst place to be in my view,

756
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:14,800
I feel like that's hell. That's like one of should

757
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,280
have been one of Dante's like layers is where just

758
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,679
like nothing is true, you can't know anything. I mean,

759
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,679
that's that's almost like what we can only imagine, like

760
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,039
dementia is I.

761
00:46:26,079 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 4: Was gonna say, yeah, something like dementia or madness exactly. Yeah,

762
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:36,079
it's hilartious, exactly, hilatious fallacious. Boy, Yeah, there was another

763
00:46:36,119 --> 00:46:41,159
way I wanted to kind of present. Uh So the

764
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:45,119
tag approach. What we're saying with tag, with the transcendent

765
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,920
argument is we're saying that we're not just saying that

766
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,159
there's only circular arguments. We're saying I know you're not

767
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,000
saying this, but what I'm saying to dude brother, uh,

768
00:46:56,159 --> 00:47:00,400
when we say that arguments are ultimately circular, that just

769
00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:04,119
means at a certain level in our systems, it's unavoidable,

770
00:47:04,159 --> 00:47:06,920
that's all it means, right, and that's true for everybody.

771
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,599
So if that's true for everybody, the question, the next

772
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,159
question that arises is, well, how do we reconcile which

773
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:18,119
systems are real or coherent or meaningful and which ones

774
00:47:18,159 --> 00:47:21,159
aren't that's where the comparison of the systems comes in.

775
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:24,760
So the only the only way to do it, because

776
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,119
we're not dealing with things that we can compare or

777
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:32,039
test in a lab. Right, systems belief systems are not

778
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,880
empirical realities. They might encompass empirical realities, but they're not

779
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,679
reducible to empirical reality. So how do we test them.

780
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:40,440
The only way to do it is what I was

781
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,519
showing you, is to compare the two models. And if

782
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:49,639
one of those models is fundamentally retarto, then it's not true, right,

783
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,599
because that guy is trying to set forth a system

784
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:59,880
that's not retarto that is better or refutes our system, right.

785
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:03,199
And that's what you have to understand is that arguing

786
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,920
at a systems level is not exactly the same as

787
00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:11,599
arguing at a kind of normative factual level. And this

788
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,719
is why this is so difficult for people in the

789
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,960
science sphere, is that they're not used to thinking at

790
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,519
a meta level, right.

791
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 5: Which is which is bizarre because they're borrowing models, kind

792
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,519
of coherency theory to make material claims. They're like taking

793
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:30,440
those things and they're like, well, we can just draw

794
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,000
a couple of circles and then and then just that

795
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:35,320
makes sense out there in the universe, and it's like,

796
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,280
well that, you know, that's a tricky thing too, where

797
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,719
you're borrowing. I mean, I don't know if they're aware

798
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,039
that they're doing it now they are.

799
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 4: I mean I'm at like countless for you know PhDs

800
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,360
in my many years of college and grad school that

801
00:48:57,519 --> 00:48:59,199
I mean that part of the reason for that is

802
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,039
the specialization. You know, the guy who studies astronomy, he

803
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:05,760
doesn't know anything about logic at all, like you not

804
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,159
know one thing or something, but he doesn't mean you mean,

805
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:12,360
any of them. I'm saying, like, forget the big pop

806
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:14,079
famous ones. Like if you were to go to your

807
00:49:14,119 --> 00:49:16,440
average university and you were to go and sit down

808
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:21,320
and interview the you know, biology professor, the you know

809
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,880
astronomy professor, you would find them constantly making basic level

810
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,440
fallacies that they don't they don't know anything about this stuff. Yeah.

811
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,599
And then partly because the education system is intentionally compartmentalized,

812
00:49:35,639 --> 00:49:37,480
that's part of the part of it, right. I mean

813
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:39,320
you can get a PhD in biology and never have

814
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,199
a logic class. Yeah, so they don't know what you're

815
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,320
talking about. They have no idea why this even. They

816
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,679
just think this is like like they view it like

817
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,000
science fiction, like you're just making up stuff.

818
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,679
Speaker 5: That's right, metaphysics they you know, like you once said,

819
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,000
they've purposely put the books next Yeah, like in the

820
00:49:57,079 --> 00:50:00,960
bar like you know, crystal head dress.

821
00:50:01,199 --> 00:50:05,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, how to how to use your menstrual cycle? Which magic?

822
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:06,920
You know that that's what they think metaphysics is.

823
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I had to speaking of that. I had a

824
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,599
roommate once in La that uh put her menstrual cycle

825
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,039
in my garden without asking, So I wasn't joking.

826
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 4: I mean you will find books like that in the

827
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:22,360
in the parts. And by the way, what's up. We

828
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,719
got almost four hundred nerds in the house tonight. Welcome everybody.

829
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,639
This is j DR JS ANDWLS when we're interviewing made

830
00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:29,960
by Jim Bob. I've got his link below if you

831
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,679
want to check out his savage ass memes. And it

832
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,159
was word solid Yeah, thank you exactly. It's always just

833
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,119
words showed brow. Yeah, but it's not words slid when

834
00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:42,000
Darwin has make up all this nonsense like ontogeny, right,

835
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,840
that's a totally made up word from Ernest Takele by

836
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,199
his made up diary where he's making up nonsense doodles.

837
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,079
Oh but that's science, you see, but not what we're

838
00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:55,719
talking about. So yeah, so circular arguments are unavoidable, but

839
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,400
sometimes you do have to kind of like uh, wade

840
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,559
through the dirt or the weeds to get people to,

841
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,880
like you said, kind of think about basic concepts. I

842
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,360
agree with you that in practice in terms of what's

843
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,360
more advantageous out in the field, so to speak, is

844
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,679
not to necessarily immediately jump to like really high falutin

845
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,159
theology concepts. You kind of have to start with more

846
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,679
basic philosophy, things that people don't even realize they recognize,

847
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,159
like you said, like mind, And there's nothing wrong within

848
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:30,159
the argumentation in terms of the logical order starting with

849
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,320
something like mind, or starting with something like causation or

850
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,119
metaphysics or numbers. You can start with all those things

851
00:51:37,199 --> 00:51:39,599
in your logical order. But that doesn't mean that they

852
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,800
have necessarily metaphysical priority. That's a different issue. That's the

853
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:48,440
problem with classical so called apologetics or classical argumentation and

854
00:51:48,519 --> 00:51:51,559
Thomas Aquinas is that those positions assume, because of a

855
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,360
logical priority, that therefore there must be some sort of

856
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,119
metaphysical priority. But that's a different issue. But that's why

857
00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:02,239
you don't see me make the causal argument, like everything

858
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,320
has a cause, therefore there was a first cause. Therefore

859
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,519
it was God, the God of the Bible. Totally fallacious argument,

860
00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:10,559
terrible argument. But I will say that I can make

861
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:14,760
a transcendental version of a causal argument. I can say, dude,

862
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,920
you can't reason or do anything in the world or

863
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,440
have any meaningful experience of the world without causation. That's

864
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,480
two different arguments. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

865
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And then and then you have to I mean,

866
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,199
people generally don't wake up, eat their you know, processed

867
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,679
cereal and think about like the unity between immaterial concepts

868
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,840
the mind and the physical world. They just like are like,

869
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,239
how lucky, we just got really lucky here that there's

870
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,559
immaterial in this great explosion or you know, from a

871
00:52:51,679 --> 00:52:57,239
singular moment in time. Also just laws of logic and

872
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:04,760
number theory and reasoning and that that entire unified you know,

873
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,199
system of three just you know, we just got lucky

874
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,880
with that. And I'm I'm just blows my mind. But

875
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,639
it makes sense that people aren't thinking of that, and

876
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,440
they don't have to deal with it. I think you

877
00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:19,920
were saying, like, what was it since the the Enlightenment? Peeps,

878
00:53:20,039 --> 00:53:21,519
they kind of like we're like, we don't need to

879
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:25,559
deal with that anymore. We're we're so past that, Like

880
00:53:25,679 --> 00:53:31,000
we're so like just follow Q, you know, and they

881
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:33,920
just don't have to deal with, you know, justifying the

882
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:36,719
things that are just you just take them as freebies.

883
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,719
You know. People just take take them. They don't want

884
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,440
to think about them. Sometimes I don't blame them because

885
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,519
you're just like sometimes you're just like, is this just

886
00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:47,360
like it's not a lost cause for me, but explaining

887
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,119
it or prompting people or like stopping people in their

888
00:53:51,199 --> 00:53:54,039
tracks with their thinking, it's like, are they going to

889
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,440
ever spend more than fifteen minutes just just dealing with

890
00:53:58,679 --> 00:54:00,920
that and what that means?

891
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know, right, Yeah, I mean it's

892
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,840
it's a you know, it's like fishing, right, the analogy

893
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,239
that Jesus uses of throwing the net out and you

894
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,079
know you'll catch some, but you won't catch them all.

895
00:54:14,159 --> 00:54:16,920
And you know there's no telling, you know, you don't

896
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:19,239
we don't know who will be and won't be caught

897
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,639
in the net. But you know, I think a lot

898
00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:25,480
of times people have a hard time believing that academia

899
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,079
because you know, there's they're big, great buildings and they

900
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:30,280
have big statues of you know, dudes out there, and

901
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,440
it just looks so impressive, and it's so authoritative, and

902
00:54:34,679 --> 00:54:38,159
universities produced like computers and shit, right, so they must

903
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,719
be knowing what they're doing. They don't realize the the

904
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:45,559
how hollow and shallow and absurd academia actually is. And

905
00:54:45,639 --> 00:54:47,199
if you've been in that world, you know it, you've

906
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,880
seen it firsthand, you know how fake it is. I mean,

907
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,360
I think we're starting to see these other areas of

908
00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:55,079
like Hollywood, you know, and government people are starting to

909
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:58,719
see how fake and absurd it really is. And guess what, y'all,

910
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:03,719
it's not that different academia, Okay, because if you're writing

911
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,960
your thesis, for example, right, I mean, in a lot

912
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,760
of unless you're in like a hard science has been

913
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,239
like maybe engineering or math or something like that. I

914
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,880
don't even know. But most of the time you're trying

915
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,119
to write something that will give you, get you a

916
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,239
claim and get you notoriety for a novel thesis, right,

917
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,559
like that Shakespeare was actually a woman. You know this

918
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:26,920
kind of thing, right, that's the kind of thing that

919
00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:33,039
people are trying to you know, groundbreak with their research

920
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:36,320
and with their philosophy, or if you're in the philosophy department,

921
00:55:38,199 --> 00:55:41,440
you just kind of have this assumption that, like you said,

922
00:55:41,519 --> 00:55:44,239
Jim Bob, those kinds of questions are the old ones.

923
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,480
We don't do that anymore. It's like fads. It's like,

924
00:55:47,599 --> 00:55:49,760
well that's not in fashion anymore, we don't do that,

925
00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:53,960
which is absurd because I thought this was the domain

926
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:57,719
of free thought, right, I thought universities promote free thought,

927
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:04,599
but it's actually the most dogmatic, like atheist, materialist place imaginable. Yeah.

928
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,159
Speaker 5: Well, it's also just like how are they going to

929
00:56:07,199 --> 00:56:09,719
get their funding if they're stopped in their tracks with

930
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:15,119
like logic and philosophical barriers that just debunk and expose

931
00:56:15,199 --> 00:56:15,800
the nonsense.

932
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 4: It's like, you don't care about funding, Jimbob. They're they're

933
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,960
altruistic and they want the truth. And that's why we

934
00:56:22,039 --> 00:56:24,480
need the state to step in so that private entities

935
00:56:24,519 --> 00:56:28,079
don't control education. And if it's the state running things,

936
00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:34,760
then it'll be objective and truthful, right, yeah, totally, I mean,

937
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,280
which is I mean what if the state is owned

938
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:42,000
by private institutions. But anyway, I mean, that's just retarded.

939
00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:48,119
But uh yeah, I mean, let's look next at before

940
00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:50,079
we do multiverse, because that one will be fun. But

941
00:56:50,599 --> 00:56:53,000
let's look at one and many because this is a

942
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:57,559
question that you raised, and it's it's really it's maybe

943
00:56:57,599 --> 00:57:00,280
a little abstract for some people. But if we do

944
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,599
not you, but in the audience, if we do grasp it,

945
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:08,000
this is actually a really fascinating realm of philosophy in

946
00:57:08,119 --> 00:57:12,039
terms of classic questions. Right, So in the history philosophy

947
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:14,199
in the West especially, but even beyond the West, you

948
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,800
have kind of recurring problems that pop up that are

949
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,880
always being argued and debated. And when we go back

950
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,440
to Plato and Aerosol, even prior to Plato, with the Presocratics,

951
00:57:26,199 --> 00:57:30,639
they start asking this question of what is one thing

952
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,119
versus the class of things? Right, we have a cat

953
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,400
and then we have many cats. What is it that

954
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,400
they share in common that makes them cats catnus? Right,

955
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,800
this kind of stuff, And the Presocratics asked that prior

956
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,559
to Plato, and they tried to solve this big question

957
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:53,840
with universal claims about reality, about metaphysics, and so some guys, Oh,

958
00:57:53,880 --> 00:58:00,039
everything's fire right, all is fire right, and that that

959
00:58:00,159 --> 00:58:03,320
might sound a little absurd, but you could see, like

960
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,800
if you thought that energy. Fire is energy, and everything

961
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,880
seems to have kind of some kind of energy making

962
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,559
it be or move, So everything must have some kind

963
00:58:12,559 --> 00:58:16,440
of like fireness in some varying degree. Or everything is

964
00:58:16,559 --> 00:58:20,599
water right. Things come out of water right when humans

965
00:58:20,599 --> 00:58:23,280
are born, water breaks, so maybe everything's just water in

966
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,159
different ways, or everything is little atoms. So the ancient

967
00:58:27,199 --> 00:58:29,800
Greeks came up with these theories and they were trying

968
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:34,599
to explain what everything is with these all encompassing grand

969
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:39,159
narratives of everything is this. Now when you get to

970
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:41,280
Plato and Aristotle, they kind of modify it and they

971
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,920
take it to the next level and they say, now

972
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,159
it's not everything's not like, you know, one thing. Although

973
00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:48,280
Plato kind of said everything is one thing, he said

974
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,679
everything's idea, right, not idea in the sense of all

975
00:58:51,679 --> 00:58:54,800
I had a good thought today, but like ideas themselves

976
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,440
have a higher level of existence than the material plane.

977
00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:02,199
That's the Platonic view. But the reason Plato thought this,

978
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:04,559
and this will help everybody understand this is like the

979
00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:08,280
seven coconuts dilemit that we had the discussion, right, I mean,

980
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,119
what is it that makes something one thing or one

981
00:59:11,199 --> 00:59:15,119
class of things and not that whole class? What picks

982
00:59:15,199 --> 00:59:18,880
out a single thing a singular particular as opposed to

983
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,639
the universal. So this is the question of universals in particulars,

984
00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:26,159
the one and the many. And in the history of

985
00:59:26,199 --> 00:59:30,000
Western philosophy, this is a dialectic. It's usually a tension

986
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:35,400
between these two between groups and classes and particulars individuals.

987
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:42,679
But the easiest way to understand why this question kept

988
00:59:42,719 --> 00:59:45,519
being raised is through grammar itself. I just listened to

989
00:59:45,639 --> 00:59:48,400
I'll give you props to a doctor Branson who just

990
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:52,239
did a show with interview with our friend Lewis, and

991
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,000
they went into the history of the one in the

992
00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:56,400
many in terms of grammar, and a lot of the

993
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,920
ancient Greek grammarians were looking at language and saying well,

994
01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:02,480
in order to explain and talk about the world, language

995
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:07,159
itself just has this feature of saying the you know, cat,

996
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,639
or so we're picking out a specific cat amongst the

997
01:00:10,719 --> 01:00:13,679
class of beings that would give the title cat, and

998
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,960
we're saying the cat is on the matt. We'll say

999
01:00:17,039 --> 01:00:24,239
here and so cat picks out one of some class

1000
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:28,880
of beings that all possess the same features. And in

1001
01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:33,239
the ancient mind, in the medieval mind, the essence of

1002
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,440
a cat, or the essence of that thing is more

1003
01:00:35,519 --> 01:00:39,239
than just the properties. There's actually some kind of higher

1004
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:44,440
level quality that makes that cat a cat, beyond just

1005
01:00:44,639 --> 01:00:48,400
the external whatever Arista will call accidental quality. So just

1006
01:00:48,519 --> 01:00:51,880
having hair, just having two eyes, just having four legs

1007
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,280
and a tail, and you know, eating mice and you

1008
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,039
know walk it being garfield or whatever, those are not

1009
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,119
the features that are the essence. Those are just the

1010
01:01:01,239 --> 01:01:03,840
characteristics or properties of what it is to be a cat.

1011
01:01:04,639 --> 01:01:07,000
So you can begin to see how we're reasoning, and

1012
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:11,079
we're asking this question. We're saying, what is it that's

1013
01:01:11,159 --> 01:01:17,440
the universal here that's also instantiated in a particular cat, right,

1014
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,159
because we're saying that this particular cat is on the mat,

1015
01:01:21,239 --> 01:01:24,760
it has a spatio temporal location, but at the same

1016
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,719
time it participates in some higher level reality of catness.

1017
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:29,039
Speaker 5: Right.

1018
01:01:29,559 --> 01:01:32,599
Speaker 4: That would be both Plato and Aristotle would agree that

1019
01:01:32,719 --> 01:01:39,360
there is some substance or essence that this being possesses.

1020
01:01:40,639 --> 01:01:43,519
And even when we write a sentence, guess what our

1021
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:46,800
sentence is assuming that to be the case. So the

1022
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:52,239
Greeks would have said sentences presupposed metaphysics. Right, these things

1023
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,800
must actually be the case in the world. For our words,

1024
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:00,559
our logos to have meaning, for logos to work, to

1025
01:02:00,639 --> 01:02:05,719
have meaningful expression in dia, logos and dialogue, this metaphysic

1026
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,000
must be the case in the world out there. So

1027
01:02:09,159 --> 01:02:11,199
this is the question. This is one manifestation of the

1028
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,360
question of one in many throughout history, universals in particulars.

1029
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,239
Aristota will call this primary and secondary substance, Right, primary substances,

1030
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,760
the particular that's picked out, secondary substance being the universal

1031
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,519
quality that it's shared in. Now, Aristotle doesn't believe it

1032
01:02:26,639 --> 01:02:31,440
with Plato that the substances are ultimately ideas. He thinks

1033
01:02:31,519 --> 01:02:34,880
that they're actually in the particular objects. So that cat

1034
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,760
possesses the universal essence of cat just as much as

1035
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,480
the next cat possesses the universal essence, and what distinguishes

1036
01:02:41,559 --> 01:02:46,119
them is their particular characteristics of that particular cat, you see. So,

1037
01:02:46,679 --> 01:02:48,760
I mean, that's a lot of rambling, but I'm just

1038
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,880
trying to say that language itself is asking one in

1039
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:58,159
many questions, right, is asking universal particular level questions. That's

1040
01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:00,480
what the ancients were obsessed with, and that's why you

1041
01:03:00,519 --> 01:03:03,760
could see why they would like mathematics. I mean, mathematics

1042
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,119
is a really easy way to ask that same kind

1043
01:03:07,159 --> 01:03:10,559
of question. And that's why all you know, sentences can

1044
01:03:10,599 --> 01:03:17,559
be translated into you know, logical formulations or even mathematic formulations,

1045
01:03:17,599 --> 01:03:22,159
like you can put sentences into formal logic or into

1046
01:03:22,639 --> 01:03:25,840
even mathematical equations if you wanted to, you just make

1047
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,239
you just make the words stand for you know, numbers.

1048
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 5: Right, I didn't. Didn't Kurt Girdle do that? He said this,

1049
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:35,559
what do you say the sentence can't be proven?

1050
01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 4: Or well he was illustrating. Yeah, he was illustrating the

1051
01:03:40,039 --> 01:03:47,199
the circularity of sets by just showing a paradoxical Girdel's sentence,

1052
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,400
which even some of the ancient Greeks asked that same

1053
01:03:49,519 --> 01:03:52,320
kind of question, they didn't think about it as in

1054
01:03:53,199 --> 01:03:56,280
the to the depth that Gurdell did. Yeah, And all

1055
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,840
Gurdell did was just look at mathematics and point out

1056
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,960
that you know, sets and set theory have a circular

1057
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,360
self referencing they If you're going to explain all reality

1058
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:08,920
with set theory, it's not going to work, he said

1059
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,800
to Bert and Russell, because the sets ultimately appeal outside

1060
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,679
of themselves, and so you can't have any perfect system

1061
01:04:16,039 --> 01:04:19,039
that's coherent that doesn't appeal outside of his set his

1062
01:04:19,119 --> 01:04:22,559
self in mathematics, so that's a transcendental type of argument

1063
01:04:22,639 --> 01:04:27,079
in math, and what we're doing in the transfer argument

1064
01:04:27,119 --> 01:04:29,199
for God is just taking that type of argument, and

1065
01:04:29,239 --> 01:04:33,320
we're applying it not just to transcendentals and transcendental categories,

1066
01:04:33,519 --> 01:04:36,159
but to God himself is kind of the ultimate transcendental.

1067
01:04:36,239 --> 01:04:40,000
So it's the same form of argument used in different arenas.

1068
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 5: Is Bertrand and Russell's set? What was it? Is? Paradox

1069
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,000
is that related to the one in the many? Do

1070
01:04:50,079 --> 01:04:51,440
you know the one directly?

1071
01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 4: So, yeah, he mentioned multiple logical paradoxes, and typically he

1072
01:04:58,039 --> 01:05:03,639
was just pointing out that that they're like inescapable features

1073
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:06,039
of language. But Russell still thought that you could have

1074
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:12,119
a perfect mathematical set that explained reality. He thought you could,

1075
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:17,519
in a reductionist way, reduce all reality to symbolic mathematical

1076
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:21,039
representations and you could explain all reality that way. Now,

1077
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,440
what Girdell was showing is that actually you can't because

1078
01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:28,159
the set becomes self referencing or reference. It also references

1079
01:05:28,199 --> 01:05:31,920
outside of itself, which is illogical in that strict way.

1080
01:05:32,519 --> 01:05:34,239
And so therefore he's just showing that you can't do

1081
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:38,679
a reductionist approach to reality. Any reductionist system will have

1082
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:44,480
that feature. And so Bertrand Russell, being a classical minded empiricist,

1083
01:05:45,559 --> 01:05:48,519
he could not admit that there were either circular arguments

1084
01:05:48,639 --> 01:05:51,400
or that a set had to appeal outside of himself itself. Right,

1085
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,480
So once he did admit that, he kind of it

1086
01:05:54,559 --> 01:05:58,079
doesn't work in his basic presubpositions. So it means you

1087
01:05:58,159 --> 01:06:03,760
can't you can't consistently be a total empiricist. It's it's impossible.

1088
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 5: So when people come up, you know, it'll never end.

1089
01:06:08,519 --> 01:06:13,840
This theory of everything constantly just rehashed and represented in

1090
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:22,000
new ways. Isn't that mathematical problem that Girdel exposes. Isn't

1091
01:06:22,039 --> 01:06:26,079
that just crushing to anyone who's trying to propose a

1092
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:32,639
mathematical or you know, you know, physical you know, metaf

1093
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:39,280
not metaphysical, quantum physics, all that stuff, to reduce all

1094
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:44,760
of everything to a singular theory mode or whatever. It

1095
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:49,239
doesn't doesn't the girdles work just go like, well, no,

1096
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,360
you can't because you have to.

1097
01:06:53,079 --> 01:06:55,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a good essay that shows, for example why

1098
01:06:56,119 --> 01:06:59,400
it's it's uh Mind's Machines Girdel, and it argues that

1099
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:04,199
you'll never have self conscious AI because AI is just algorithms. Right,

1100
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:09,039
So the argument that Gurdell was proposing also applies to AI.

1101
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:13,199
That that paper argues because AI will never evolve to

1102
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,480
have consciousness because you can't reduce consciousness to something material.

1103
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,760
So the argument assumes that consciousness is material. Right, Oh,

1104
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,760
our consciousness is just you know, matter in motion or whatever.

1105
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,360
And if we figured out the matter in motion and

1106
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,840
we put it into a computer, then we have consciousness.

1107
01:07:28,199 --> 01:07:30,039
But that begs the question, and it just assumes that

1108
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:34,800
consciousness is matter, but it's not. And that essay argues

1109
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,320
that what Gurdell showed proved that AI will never be

1110
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,760
self conscious. It's absurd, it's stupid. It's just science fiction LARPing.

1111
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,079
But to be clear, though, I mean not everybody who

1112
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:49,639
might think all reality is math or just matter in

1113
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,280
motion or can be reduced to that, they wouldn't necessarily

1114
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:54,840
be physicalist. I mean you might have somebody who thinks

1115
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,360
all reality is math in a platonic way or a

1116
01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,880
new you could have anyoplatonists who thought that all reality

1117
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:04,639
is reducible to higher level logic or thinking. But that

1118
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,119
is also self refuting too. I mean, it's kind of

1119
01:08:07,159 --> 01:08:10,639
a different way of argument. If a lot of times

1120
01:08:10,679 --> 01:08:14,400
people who recognize the problems in materialism and ranked materialism

1121
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,920
and rank not eve empiricism, they'll kind of opt for

1122
01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:21,800
platonism or neoplatonism because it does allow for there to

1123
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:27,760
be higher level orders of reality, an ideal realm, a psychosphere,

1124
01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:33,159
to use the Matthew McConaughey language, eacho share the mindscape,

1125
01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:38,199
the mental realm, which some of those thinkers like Roger

1126
01:08:38,319 --> 01:08:42,479
Penrose actually think has a real existence. So there kind

1127
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,720
of there are still people a lot of mathematicians kind

1128
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,399
of opt for a neoplatonic or a modern version of Platonism.

1129
01:08:49,119 --> 01:08:51,159
Right if you read that book which is really good, actually,

1130
01:08:52,199 --> 01:08:55,159
Paul Davis' book Mind of God, he kind of argues

1131
01:08:55,199 --> 01:08:57,399
that point. He's like, look, I don't know about exactly

1132
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:01,119
what the right theism is, but if we look at

1133
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,279
the way math works, the way Girdel's stuff works, if

1134
01:09:05,279 --> 01:09:11,880
we look at the way higher level hypercube geometry works,

1135
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,279
you know, these things are obviously not reducible to matter.

1136
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:19,640
Mandelbrot sets are not reducible to states of matter. How

1137
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:22,119
can we explain that? And the best that the strict

1138
01:09:23,039 --> 01:09:25,960
physicalist materialists can say as well, one day we'll know, right,

1139
01:09:26,039 --> 01:09:30,359
So they had this faith that one day moster science, right,

1140
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,880
mister lab coat will just figure it out. Oh, now

1141
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,079
we know that all reality is just. But again you

1142
01:09:36,199 --> 01:09:43,960
can you'll never have a perfect physicalist explanation without assuming

1143
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,039
that everything is physical.

1144
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, and even if you expressed it, like in the

1145
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:52,840
same problem with the cat or the seven seven coconuts,

1146
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:59,399
the concept of consciousness or AI is still not identical

1147
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:05,239
to whatever the expression or apparatus we create to represent it,

1148
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:06,760
you know what I mean, So that we have an

1149
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:09,000
idea and then we're like, I think we got it.

1150
01:10:09,199 --> 01:10:11,520
You know, we're gonna mimic this thing, and all you're

1151
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:19,199
doing is mimicking some you know, constrained, apprehended version of it.

1152
01:10:19,359 --> 01:10:21,359
You know like that, you're just like, oh, that's AI.

1153
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:27,279
And you'll never get the direct connection to consciousness because again,

1154
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:31,800
you can't appeal outside and watch consciousness to know exactly

1155
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:34,920
what it is to be able to then simulate or

1156
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,399
model it because you're still in it. You know, it's

1157
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:40,720
you can't. And that's kind of our thing, is that,

1158
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:45,199
like we can't appeal outside ever, Yeah, I mean can we?

1159
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:46,159
I mean I don't.

1160
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,359
Speaker 4: Well, I mean what would we know that would? Well,

1161
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:51,439
theoretically you could if you had a mind that was

1162
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:53,520
outside of it, that revealed it to you. So if

1163
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,800
you're a theist, you have the possibility of that. I'm

1164
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:57,680
not saying that it's true because you say that. I'm

1165
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,600
just saying that, right, if the theistic worldview is true,

1166
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,800
and the God of you know, the worldview that, for example,

1167
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,399
I have is correct, then it is you could see

1168
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,640
how it's possible because God could reveal from that outside

1169
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:13,520
perspective as to what universal claims universal truths are grounded in.

1170
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,640
So if you have a universal mind, then yes, you

1171
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:19,119
do have a basis for that. And now again I'm

1172
01:11:19,159 --> 01:11:22,079
saying that it's coherent, right, I'm not saying because sometimes

1173
01:11:22,119 --> 01:11:24,199
we'll make again, you'll get people says, oh, well, if

1174
01:11:24,239 --> 01:11:27,000
you can't explain to me perfectly how it is the

1175
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:33,560
case that a universal mind makes claims about universals true,

1176
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:35,760
then I won't. I don't have to believe it. Well,

1177
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,079
that's but again that's a requirement that no system can

1178
01:11:39,159 --> 01:11:42,600
actually meet. What we're saying is that it is possible.

1179
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:46,439
It makes sense how you could make universal claims if

1180
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:49,680
your worldview has a universal being. That is the grounding

1181
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,520
and basis for universals, you see, And that's precisely what

1182
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,600
we're getting out here, is that you know, so in

1183
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:03,159
philosophical theology, this is called divine conceptualism, right that that

1184
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:10,000
the grounding of reality is the uh divine The concepts

1185
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,840
in the divine mind for us are called the logi

1186
01:12:12,319 --> 01:12:14,920
l O G o I, which are just the instantiations

1187
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,359
of the logos. Right, So in that in that worldview,

1188
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,840
that's why we say those things. We're giving a why here.

1189
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,479
We're not explaining all the hows that's not possible. But

1190
01:12:27,079 --> 01:12:32,760
that's contrasted with again like so remember so if we

1191
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:35,399
we're looking at divine conceptualism, the different forms of this

1192
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,239
you could look at, uh, this is this is not

1193
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,319
divine conceptualism. So any system that believes that the world

1194
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:46,079
is patterned on a creator God would be a form

1195
01:12:46,239 --> 01:12:51,439
of divine conceptualism. So Judaism would have a version of this,

1196
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:53,119
could have a version of this. Islam could have a

1197
01:12:53,199 --> 01:12:57,239
version of this. Christianity has a version of this, And conceivably,

1198
01:12:57,359 --> 01:13:02,479
I guess if you believed and like the many Aliens

1199
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:06,000
or many God Creator simulations, I suppose you could come

1200
01:13:06,079 --> 01:13:10,239
up with theoretically a so the ai entities had a

1201
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,000
conception of what they would create. Okay, I mean I

1202
01:13:13,039 --> 01:13:14,720
don't believe that. I think you could refute that in

1203
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:16,479
another way. We'll get to that when we look at

1204
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:21,079
like simulation or multi verse theory. But just to some

1205
01:13:21,239 --> 01:13:24,600
of the ideas of oh, everything is math, right. This

1206
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,840
is so Pythagoras, Plato, and Max Tegmark in terms of

1207
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:33,560
modern mathematicians and theoreticians. He has this view that reality

1208
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,359
quite literally is mathematics at a fundamental level. Right, So

1209
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:40,399
some of the people who believe the quantum stuff will say,

1210
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:43,119
when I get down to the you know, smallest levels

1211
01:13:43,119 --> 01:13:45,880
of reality. Again, I don't know if it's if they're correct,

1212
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:47,560
but let's say that it is. If it is true,

1213
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:50,680
they'll say, you find geometric structure even at that smallest

1214
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,760
level real. So therefore reality is at a fundamental level

1215
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:58,960
math or numbers or geometry in some way, And that's

1216
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:01,479
just another or I mean binary right one and zero

1217
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:05,279
being non being right. That's another version of like mathematical

1218
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:10,960
approaches to reality. But again those are reductionists, right, there's

1219
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:15,039
still systems or positions that try to predicate from a

1220
01:14:15,159 --> 01:14:18,960
limited human vantage point what all of reality is. So

1221
01:14:19,079 --> 01:14:21,439
you actually hit on kind of one of the key

1222
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:23,920
areas where I would criticize. This is what I would

1223
01:14:24,119 --> 01:14:26,479
is that I would just say simply say, look, how

1224
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:30,720
can you say what all reality is? If you're a human.

1225
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:33,680
You can't. I mean you're limited. And again, most people,

1226
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:37,520
unless they're platonists, which most people aren't. Your ninety nine

1227
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,119
percent of the people that you interact with are going

1228
01:14:40,159 --> 01:14:42,880
to be basic level empiricists. They're going to be like, man,

1229
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,399
we only know what we can see, touch SuDS and

1230
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,279
fuel man as all we know. Dude, Well guess what

1231
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,199
if that's all you know? You can never make a

1232
01:14:51,359 --> 01:14:53,359
universal claim ever at all.

1233
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 5: It's important that including that claim. You couldn't actually show

1234
01:14:57,079 --> 01:15:01,880
me how that's true using those tools. Yeah, it just

1235
01:15:02,279 --> 01:15:04,920
it doesn't work. It's funny you a lot of people,

1236
01:15:05,159 --> 01:15:11,439
uh I'll do streams or you know, talk to strict

1237
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:16,720
empiricists and materialists and It's funny because the our best

1238
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:23,000
approach to that worldview is it almost sounds like nihilism

1239
01:15:23,079 --> 01:15:26,119
at first, like we're taking the nihilistic approach to like

1240
01:15:27,119 --> 01:15:30,560
lead them to their logical end. You know, have you

1241
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,000
noticed that, Like you don't just say like no, no, no,

1242
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:36,960
like it's this, you go, okay, you just keep like

1243
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:40,720
if that's true, then oh, then you believe this, and

1244
01:15:41,079 --> 01:15:44,960
then like that's that's a I don't know, I don't

1245
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:49,319
even consider it a technique because I'm literally like asking them,

1246
01:15:49,359 --> 01:15:52,880
I'm just going, how do you know anything's true? You know,

1247
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:54,840
like and then they're like, you're just a not You're

1248
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:57,239
just being a nihilist, and I'm like, no, I'm leading.

1249
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:01,680
I'm leading toward your toward the end of your worldview.

1250
01:16:02,319 --> 01:16:05,760
And once you lead someone there, I mean, it's just

1251
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,560
like you did with Dill Honey, like eventually you the

1252
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:13,399
only thing you can do is appeal to metaverse logic

1253
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:17,520
isn't real maybe somewhere like you know, it's just real

1254
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,600
for us now, you know, and and it's just absurdity.

1255
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,680
So I mean it all like you said, there's not

1256
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,800
many places you can go, and I'm seeing that clearer

1257
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:29,920
and clearer, like, there really isn't that many places to

1258
01:16:30,039 --> 01:16:34,119
go with a with a worldview because one, like you said,

1259
01:16:34,159 --> 01:16:37,800
we're limited. But but that's like sounds like a you know,

1260
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:42,119
nihilistic approach, but it's not. It's just that's what the

1261
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:47,159
that's the truth of the matter, and we have to

1262
01:16:47,239 --> 01:16:50,319
appeal outside of ourselves. So we're stuck. But no matter

1263
01:16:50,399 --> 01:16:52,319
your worldview, you're stuck with those two facts.

1264
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:54,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you You also nailed it when you

1265
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,840
said that earlier when we were talking about Dude Bro's worldview,

1266
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:02,479
that it was it ends in syllipsism, and ironically, the

1267
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:07,359
history of Western philosophy actually went in that direction. So Descartes,

1268
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,840
you know, when he does his meditations, he's actually trying

1269
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:13,199
to get down to the most basic thing that can't

1270
01:17:13,239 --> 01:17:16,880
be doubted, right with the cogto, and then he proposes

1271
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:18,880
what he thinks would be a place to kind of

1272
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:21,439
start building a philosophy. Oh we all know and can't

1273
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:25,119
doubt this. Now, that doesn't work, and ultimately for multiple reasons.

1274
01:17:25,159 --> 01:17:29,439
But what's ironic is that even after that, when we

1275
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:33,680
get up into modern empiricism, which is still the dominant

1276
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:37,800
kind of philosophy for the most part naive empiricism, because

1277
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:39,640
people just think, well, there's there's what else can we do?

1278
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,760
There's no other options. We're boxed in here. You look

1279
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,800
at Quin's essay, his famous essay just reasserts the problems

1280
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:49,680
of Hume. That's where we're stuck. And ironically, if you

1281
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:52,520
look at Russell, for example, in his scientism books, he

1282
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:58,840
actually proposes in Scientific Outlook that reality really is just

1283
01:17:59,039 --> 01:18:06,680
a series of phenomena that could entirely just be projected

1284
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:10,039
onto our senses from who knows what I mean. He

1285
01:18:10,079 --> 01:18:13,359
doesn't believe in simulation theory, but he literally says early

1286
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:16,039
on in the books that, look, we don't know that

1287
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:20,520
the data or the impressions that are hitting our five senses,

1288
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:23,279
that they're actually coherent or meaningful. We don't even know

1289
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:25,479
that they're from an external world. We could be a

1290
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,119
mind and a app He literally says that. He says,

1291
01:18:29,199 --> 01:18:31,560
we could just be projecting them from our sub conscious.

1292
01:18:33,239 --> 01:18:36,359
He says, now that we because we can't answer those questions,

1293
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:38,960
we're just going to proceed as if we live in

1294
01:18:39,039 --> 01:18:42,880
a world where we're distinct beings and there's a commonly

1295
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:46,119
experienced external world and all these things right, because we

1296
01:18:46,199 --> 01:18:49,000
can't answer the just forget it, dude, it's done. It's

1297
01:18:49,079 --> 01:18:53,399
like the unattainable quest. It's like, you know, can you

1298
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:56,199
beat the final level of Donkey Kong? There isn't one. Right,

1299
01:18:56,920 --> 01:19:01,000
So you might think, well, are we out a nineistic endpoint?

1300
01:19:01,159 --> 01:19:04,439
Are we at a dead end? No, because you would

1301
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:07,680
only think that's a dead end if you want to

1302
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:10,800
be an atheist, if you want to shut up all

1303
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,640
of reality into man's mind. But that's where all of it.

1304
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,000
You see, these people, the problem is not knowledge for them,

1305
01:19:17,079 --> 01:19:20,840
the problem is pride. The problem is atheistic arrogance, pride

1306
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:23,720
and not wanting there to be a god. They have

1307
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:27,239
an invested interest in not wanting there to be a god.

1308
01:19:27,319 --> 01:19:29,279
That's the issue here. It's not Oh, it's just a

1309
01:19:29,399 --> 01:19:31,079
lack of facts. And if we just give them more

1310
01:19:31,159 --> 01:19:33,560
facts and now you have to repent. You see, that's

1311
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:37,479
the point here. And again, yes, there's limited ways that

1312
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:38,000
you can go.

1313
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:43,920
Speaker 5: Also, I wouldn't I would say more specifically, people don't

1314
01:19:44,039 --> 01:19:48,760
want there to be a coherent God because it's way

1315
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,439
easier to you. Notice, it's not just a fad. I

1316
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:55,359
was thinking about this, like, why does Christianity such a

1317
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:58,479
strong target. You know, Islam is a target for a

1318
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:02,279
lot of things, you know, in media or whatever politics.

1319
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:08,720
But I was thinking about why certain certain worldviews are

1320
01:20:09,279 --> 01:20:13,479
really hard targets, you know, and they're just like out

1321
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:17,520
in the open, and I was realizing that, like it's coherency.

1322
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:22,920
It's like if something makes sense, then you don't. If

1323
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:26,760
you're invested in not having that be the truth, you're

1324
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:29,680
gonna find the one that's the most threatening. In other words,

1325
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:32,680
like you know, if you're over the target, you know,

1326
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:36,600
like any of you guys like Rouche got you know, banned, right,

1327
01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:38,880
you know, he was over the target so to speak.

1328
01:20:39,079 --> 01:20:43,000
He was saying things over a target. And I look

1329
01:20:43,039 --> 01:20:46,199
at it similarly. So it's not like just because a

1330
01:20:46,239 --> 01:20:47,920
lot of other things are easy to write off, like

1331
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,920
an elephant with six arms and blah blah blah, or

1332
01:20:51,119 --> 01:20:57,399
Cali the demon goddess and you know, multiple gods flying

1333
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,880
around and kind of arguing with each other and pagan is.

1334
01:21:00,239 --> 01:21:02,399
It's like it's easy to discard a lot of stuff.

1335
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:12,359
But because specifically Christianity unifies an immaterial God and that

1336
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:16,800
God is embodied in a man, I believe that is

1337
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:22,199
why it's so people are so averse because it kind

1338
01:21:22,239 --> 01:21:25,640
of like gets into the material a little bit, into

1339
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,359
the material world. Yeah, and it's a lot more threatening,

1340
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:32,239
I think, you know, and I'm not well versed enough

1341
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:38,119
in theology, you know, just still reading and learning. But

1342
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:42,239
it seems from a broad perspective that that's the threat.

1343
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:46,560
If it's coherent, it's a it's a threat. If it's

1344
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:48,520
not and just silly and it can be written off.

1345
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,600
It's just like, okay, not a threat. Not a threat.

1346
01:21:52,199 --> 01:21:55,600
Speaker 4: That's a great question. Let's get to why that is

1347
01:21:55,760 --> 01:22:02,079
also unavoidable for any system how truth in whatever senses

1348
01:22:02,119 --> 01:22:05,319
you can see it to be have to instantiate or

1349
01:22:05,399 --> 01:22:09,319
be in this world as well. That's actually unavoidable for

1350
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:12,520
their systems too. So even the guys who argue against

1351
01:22:13,199 --> 01:22:18,439
or had this problem with the idea that the universal

1352
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:21,760
could be instantiated in the particular or could enter into

1353
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:23,960
the here and the now. That's going to be a

1354
01:22:24,039 --> 01:22:26,239
big problem for any worldviewing. By the way, this has

1355
01:22:26,279 --> 01:22:30,119
been problem for Plato. But this is another reason why

1356
01:22:30,199 --> 01:22:33,399
you can't go to platonic route. But I did want

1357
01:22:33,399 --> 01:22:35,960
to address that question just kind of in a earlier

1358
01:22:36,079 --> 01:22:38,920
about being limited in the ways that we can go

1359
01:22:39,239 --> 01:22:42,600
in terms of our beliefs. If we just took basic

1360
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:46,920
ideas in epistemology, right, anybody's epistemology will have to answer

1361
01:22:47,119 --> 01:22:50,800
kind of easy questions. Right, We've got two options here.

1362
01:22:51,359 --> 01:22:53,319
Can we know or we can't know?

1363
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:54,039
Speaker 5: Right?

1364
01:22:55,199 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 4: We can know or we can't know truths, propositions, beliefs, anything,

1365
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:01,239
It doesn't matter.

1366
01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:03,880
Speaker 5: What those are. Both number one though, right in the end,

1367
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:07,039
if we can't know, right, So if we.

1368
01:23:07,079 --> 01:23:09,039
Speaker 4: Went this route, it would be right, it would be

1369
01:23:09,079 --> 01:23:11,600
self refuting. But I'm just going to show you that, right,

1370
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:13,640
So we know that that that's the one we covered earlier,

1371
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:15,159
and we know that one self refuting, so we're going

1372
01:23:15,239 --> 01:23:18,479
to cross that out. So the next step I meant

1373
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:22,920
to I meant to make this number one so we

1374
01:23:23,039 --> 01:23:27,279
know that number one is correct. I can't write upset

1375
01:23:27,359 --> 01:23:30,560
down there we go so we know that we found

1376
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,439
out that Roman one was correct and one was correct.

1377
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:35,680
That could lead to other questions. Can we know there's

1378
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:36,560
an external world?

1379
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:37,680
Speaker 7: Right?

1380
01:23:39,119 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 4: Can we know who we who's that we there? Can

1381
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:44,760
we know what an eye is? A self an am?

1382
01:23:46,399 --> 01:23:49,359
Can we know what it is to exist in this

1383
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:52,560
external world? Can we know what a world is can

1384
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:54,199
we know where it came from? So we just started.

1385
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,600
So what I'm getting at is that once you answer

1386
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:00,760
yes to one of the easy kind of foundational questions,

1387
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:04,079
it limits you in where you go from there. And

1388
01:24:04,199 --> 01:24:07,159
if you answer wrong in one of those foundational ones,

1389
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:11,359
the whole system collapses. It's like, you know, the the

1390
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:15,399
superstructure of the building collapses.

1391
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:19,159
Speaker 5: Right, right? Is that still within the one and the

1392
01:24:19,239 --> 01:24:19,960
many issue?

1393
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:24,319
Speaker 4: It could be yeah, I mean you could. I mean

1394
01:24:25,399 --> 01:24:27,239
I was just kind of making it even more simple

1395
01:24:27,319 --> 01:24:28,960
than that. But if you wanted to, you could. You

1396
01:24:29,039 --> 01:24:31,039
could apply the one of the many and say well,

1397
01:24:31,039 --> 01:24:34,439
if you don't believe in universals, then you can't actually

1398
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:37,920
predicate of anything. And you'll get a lot of modern

1399
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,000
philosophers who will try to answer that and say, well,

1400
01:24:40,079 --> 01:24:42,600
we don't actually believe that there have to be universals,

1401
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,680
but we will act like they exist in language so

1402
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:47,880
that we can have language. But that doesn't tell us

1403
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:50,840
that there's actually any universal truth. So they just play

1404
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,319
this game in philosophy and academia where they just like

1405
01:24:54,399 --> 01:24:56,399
the Darwin I say well, we don't actually know there's

1406
01:24:56,399 --> 01:24:59,319
an external world. We can never actually know that. But look, dude,

1407
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:01,319
we're gonna like it is so that we can do

1408
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:03,840
our science. That's how stupid it is. I'm not kidding.

1409
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:05,880
That's what they do. And they'll just ask if you

1410
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:07,680
start bringing these things, that was it? Man? Nobody can

1411
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:08,680
even answer those questions.

1412
01:25:09,319 --> 01:25:12,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, how do you have nothing? Nothing is really? Yeah nothing,

1413
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:16,199
No truth is accessible. But you had one sixth of

1414
01:25:16,279 --> 01:25:18,479
aw wi for a million years, correct.

1415
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:22,800
Speaker 4: And many of the science crowd still has one six

1416
01:25:23,119 --> 01:25:28,279
we wi for many Uh So the last what was

1417
01:25:28,319 --> 01:25:31,720
your last quese? You went to a different arenas where.

1418
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:31,880
Speaker 1: They go.

1419
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 5: I was talking about the target, you know, easy target,

1420
01:25:36,119 --> 01:25:40,600
like coherency, like not just uh, you know, people don't

1421
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:44,880
it's not just that they don't want to believe or

1422
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:49,199
confront the possibility of a god, but it's it filters down,

1423
01:25:49,399 --> 01:25:53,760
It filters down to coherency. Like the closer you get

1424
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,119
to coherency, the more people don't want to deal with it,

1425
01:25:57,359 --> 01:25:59,199
you know. And and they'll even go to you know,

1426
01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:02,520
people like Brett Weinstein will be like, you know, I

1427
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:05,279
can't deny and similar to Jordan Peterson where they argue

1428
01:26:05,319 --> 01:26:11,039
for the work ability the usefulness of religion, Christianity as

1429
01:26:11,159 --> 01:26:15,079
a heuristic model what I like to call it tech

1430
01:26:15,159 --> 01:26:17,479
and avatar to use in the game of life. You know,

1431
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:19,840
that was that's good. That that one's good.

1432
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:20,520
Speaker 4: I like that one.

1433
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:26,119
Speaker 5: And uh, they they almost admit the pragmat the pragmatic

1434
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:29,800
aspect of it, but the pragmatism isn't the basis for

1435
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:34,000
the argument Nora's usefulness, and that can't be further the

1436
01:26:34,079 --> 01:26:39,359
basis of truth or morality or ethics or anything else.

1437
01:26:39,479 --> 01:26:42,960
So they kind of deal, They're they're swimming in the

1438
01:26:43,039 --> 01:26:46,319
same soup. There's still they're confronting and dealing with it,

1439
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:50,600
and I actually applaud some of them. I don't necessarily

1440
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:55,479
respect their ongoing departure from the truth or you know,

1441
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:59,560
rejection of logic, But even someone like Sam Harris, who's

1442
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:04,039
just constantly contradicts himself all the time, still at least

1443
01:27:04,079 --> 01:27:05,960
got to a place where he's like, well, no, I

1444
01:27:06,159 --> 01:27:10,600
really think the good exists, like I can't can't avoid it.

1445
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:12,359
And the same thing with Stefan. You know, when you

1446
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:14,720
had your conversation, he was already at a point where

1447
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,239
it's like I can't. I'm not gonna pretend I don't

1448
01:27:18,319 --> 01:27:25,760
live consistent with this, with the you know, acknowledgment of

1449
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:31,079
these metaphysical preconditions, these metaphysical claims, these truths that have

1450
01:27:31,279 --> 01:27:33,239
to be true in order for me to even begin

1451
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:37,079
to argue about truth at all. And then, you know,

1452
01:27:37,239 --> 01:27:39,640
once you get to that place, I don't I think

1453
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:42,640
it's either you go toward good and God or you

1454
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:45,640
live in a version of hell where you're just like, yeah,

1455
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:49,079
you begin help, yeah, yeah, and you're like, you know,

1456
01:27:49,159 --> 01:27:50,319
it's you know, something's true.

1457
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:52,640
Speaker 4: So let's deal with that question that you raised, like, well,

1458
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:54,560
what about the people that have a problem with the

1459
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:58,039
idea of like universal truth entering into the here and

1460
01:27:58,079 --> 01:28:00,199
the now in this world? Right, because we do say

1461
01:28:00,239 --> 01:28:02,319
that about Christ, We say Jesus is the logos, the

1462
01:28:02,399 --> 01:28:04,960
second person of the Godhead, that he became flesh, right,

1463
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:09,000
he became man fully human, walking around, you know, doing

1464
01:28:09,119 --> 01:28:12,319
things that humans do, yet without sin in our worldview,

1465
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:16,199
Isn't that problematic? Aren't we? Aren't we kind of like

1466
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,119
diminishing truth by bringing it down into the here and

1467
01:28:19,159 --> 01:28:22,319
the now. That is the platonic issue, That is the

1468
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:26,119
platonic problem. Now, remember we said before Plato was asking

1469
01:28:26,199 --> 01:28:28,000
one of those great questions about the one of the

1470
01:28:28,039 --> 01:28:30,439
many when he was saying, well, what is one cat

1471
01:28:31,279 --> 01:28:33,520
in relationship to all cats? What do we mean when

1472
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:35,680
we talk about cats? And we saw it. We said

1473
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,119
earlier that his solution, in his mind, what he thought

1474
01:28:38,239 --> 01:28:42,840
was the best answer, was idealism. And by idealism, we

1475
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:46,399
don't mean it in a colloquial sense like the Marxist

1476
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,520
on the street is an idealist. We mean it in

1477
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:53,600
a technical, metaphysical sense that what really exists or has

1478
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:57,600
a higher level of existence or reality or ideas. Plato

1479
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:01,399
is a the pre eminence ideal. He thinks that in

1480
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:04,079
his scheme in the Greek chain of being, you could say,

1481
01:29:04,199 --> 01:29:07,359
at the top of what exists in the chain are ideas,

1482
01:29:08,239 --> 01:29:12,000
and those ideas ultimately actually are fundamentally one. This is

1483
01:29:12,039 --> 01:29:17,399
the monad for Plato. So what exists, truly and properly speaking,

1484
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:23,439
is though one, the idea, the monad, and all those ideas,

1485
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:25,800
even the cat. Right, we're saying that the essence of

1486
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:29,720
the cat is the idea of cat that's in the monad,

1487
01:29:29,800 --> 01:29:33,560
and ultimately it's one. Now, there's problems just to how

1488
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:35,720
there can be distinctions in the one, because there's not

1489
01:29:36,359 --> 01:29:37,880
what we're going to set that aside for a moment,

1490
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:39,720
when we look at Plato, just what we just want

1491
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:42,520
to understand that this answer, and we're going to show

1492
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:44,760
why this is a problem for Plato. It's also going

1493
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:46,720
to be a problem for any of the any of

1494
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:50,439
the persons who might admit abstract truth but don't want

1495
01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:52,439
it to enter into the hearing the now. Like we

1496
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:55,079
say with Jesus. We're going to point out that they

1497
01:29:55,159 --> 01:29:57,600
have the same problem, and not only that, they actually

1498
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:01,239
admit that it does enter into the here and the now.

1499
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:03,199
And guess where it enters into the here and the

1500
01:30:03,319 --> 01:30:08,119
now in the non Jesus believing worldview in their mind

1501
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,319
they make their mind the logos. We'll see it in

1502
01:30:11,359 --> 01:30:14,199
a minute. But what are the features in Plato's idea

1503
01:30:14,359 --> 01:30:17,000
of the one or the higher level ideal reality? Well,

1504
01:30:17,039 --> 01:30:21,880
for him, because it's like math, obviously it's unchanging. The

1505
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:24,479
number seven doesn't become the number five. It doesn't evolve.

1506
01:30:25,239 --> 01:30:28,159
Those things are eternal. They're not subject to time like

1507
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:32,279
we see here. They don't. It's invariant. They don't. There doesn't.

1508
01:30:33,159 --> 01:30:36,359
This realm doesn't undergo flux, right, Cat and this will

1509
01:30:36,399 --> 01:30:38,680
always remain Cat andus no matter how many cats come

1510
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,399
and go, even though all the cats in the world

1511
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:42,960
go to Hell. I'm joking they don't.

1512
01:30:43,039 --> 01:30:46,039
Speaker 5: And also just anyone in the chat who went there

1513
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,119
with their brain, that's still the same even if we

1514
01:30:49,239 --> 01:30:53,359
all decided that B is seven, because it doesn't matter

1515
01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:57,439
what you call the cat, that's just the descriptor.

1516
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:00,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the ling whatever. Correct. It could change, right,

1517
01:31:00,319 --> 01:31:03,399
So that's why I Plato would just say to that, well, look, uh,

1518
01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:05,880
you know, I'm a Greek. I use this word for cat.

1519
01:31:06,279 --> 01:31:09,800
You know, the Chinese they use this word for cat,

1520
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:12,000
the Egyptians use this word for cat. We're all talking

1521
01:31:12,039 --> 01:31:14,239
about the same thing. The linguistic symbols can change, it

1522
01:31:14,279 --> 01:31:16,880
doesn't matter because the reference is the same. That's all

1523
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,039
Plato would say to that. But yes, you're right. And

1524
01:31:20,159 --> 01:31:25,880
then the features of this this metaphysically, this ideal one,

1525
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:29,399
this moment ad, these ideas, they're metaphysically higher in some sense,

1526
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:33,960
meaning that they're more real or they're given ontological priority. Uh.

1527
01:31:34,159 --> 01:31:37,359
And they're also immaterial in Plato's philosophy. So this is

1528
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:40,199
all in his view, contrasted to the here and the

1529
01:31:40,319 --> 01:31:43,720
now in a dialectical tension. Now you're starting to see

1530
01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:47,600
why if you start, if you think that math numbers logic,

1531
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:52,039
that stuff is more real, and it's higher ontologically, metaphysically,

1532
01:31:52,319 --> 01:31:57,279
it's given a priority. This world is lesser, lower prison dream.

1533
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:00,920
Oh now it's starting to sound like eustism. We've heard

1534
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:03,680
this before. So this world is a trap, it's a prison.

1535
01:32:04,399 --> 01:32:07,159
We're in the matrix again, and literally Plato's philosophy is

1536
01:32:07,239 --> 01:32:11,079
the major's philosophy. But forget that. Let's just point out

1537
01:32:11,119 --> 01:32:14,000
this main thing. Look, Plato had this same issue because

1538
01:32:14,039 --> 01:32:16,279
people say, wait a minute, Plato, if that's the real realm,

1539
01:32:17,039 --> 01:32:19,640
how does that realm of the ideas and the real

1540
01:32:20,840 --> 01:32:24,840
relate to this realm, which you say is not really real.

1541
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:29,079
It's like a dream, it's an illusion. Your whole system

1542
01:32:29,199 --> 01:32:31,399
is built on the one and the mini having a

1543
01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:35,199
real participation and relating to one another. But if that

1544
01:32:35,359 --> 01:32:39,600
realm is invariant and unchanging and this realm is literally

1545
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:43,359
flux and change constantly, you've got a problem, Plato, How

1546
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:47,680
can you relate to fundamentally intention things. Do you know

1547
01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:52,800
what Plato's response was, I mean, it's it's utterly retarded,

1548
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:53,359
but it's.

1549
01:32:53,399 --> 01:32:56,119
Speaker 5: He said, it depends on what you mean you're close.

1550
01:32:56,439 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 4: He actually this might piersonbod act believe this. I don't know,

1551
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:06,239
but uh, Plato literally said, uh, we had a past life, bro.

1552
01:33:07,039 --> 01:33:09,680
Oh that's that was the best thing you because the

1553
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:12,039
best I could come up with is, at one time

1554
01:33:12,159 --> 01:33:14,520
we were in a past life in the realm of

1555
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:17,960
the ideas, and we were part of the realm of ideas.

1556
01:33:18,079 --> 01:33:21,439
We were one with the one, and we at some

1557
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:24,319
point just kind of like fell down into this bodily prism.

1558
01:33:25,119 --> 01:33:28,560
So he literally relies on myths. He says, uh, myths,

1559
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:33,720
that's ancient myths, and we are reincarnated, that's what he said. So, uh,

1560
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:37,760
transmigration of souls, total mythology. So you see the irony

1561
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:40,520
here is that you thought and in a way it

1562
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:46,319
is a highly rational, highly systematic, mathematical Pythagorean system. And

1563
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,760
what does it ultimately fall back on mysticism?

1564
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:49,560
Speaker 1: Uh?

1565
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 4: You know, we just had a past life, bro, where

1566
01:33:52,279 --> 01:33:54,560
where we were, we were in we were the one man.

1567
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:58,159
We were all one dude. So it's even that system

1568
01:33:58,279 --> 01:34:00,960
is based on certain Now, if you if you don't

1569
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:03,079
want to go this route, you see, let's say, well,

1570
01:34:03,079 --> 01:34:06,359
I don't believe in that reincarnation nonsense. But it doesn't matter,

1571
01:34:06,399 --> 01:34:09,680
because you're going to have the same problem in your

1572
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:15,640
worldview if you don't have the ability to explain the invariant,

1573
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:22,720
abstract conceptual things and entities relating to instantiating and being

1574
01:34:22,840 --> 01:34:25,960
able to be in this realm of time and space

1575
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:28,880
and flux. Now, also we can explain that in the

1576
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:31,439
Christian system, we can give an account for how that's possible.

1577
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:34,239
I'm not saying by explain, I don't mean I give

1578
01:34:34,279 --> 01:34:37,640
you the infinite, perfect way of how it all works.

1579
01:34:38,159 --> 01:34:42,399
By explaining, we mean give the possibilities and the preconditions.

1580
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:43,600
That's how that's possible.

1581
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:47,079
Speaker 5: Or doesn't He he also had a problem because he's

1582
01:34:47,199 --> 01:34:52,560
he only, even through his his mythical explanation, explain the

1583
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:58,520
unity between the immaterial, the one, the abstract world of

1584
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:03,239
invariant and the mind and us the mind. But he

1585
01:35:03,359 --> 01:35:05,680
does he's he didn't. I don't know if he did

1586
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:08,560
or not, But in your summary it didn't sound like

1587
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:12,319
he included the uh, the unchanging, you know, like the

1588
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:17,159
uh the what is it called regularity in nature? Like

1589
01:35:17,279 --> 01:35:21,960
that's that's that we actually perceive in similar No, he

1590
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:22,319
would have.

1591
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:25,079
Speaker 4: A way to explain that you're correct. I mean, that's

1592
01:35:25,119 --> 01:35:28,279
a question that we'll be asked a lot later in philosophy.

1593
01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:31,039
But you could ask that of a Plato or a

1594
01:35:31,039 --> 01:35:33,680
Platonist or anybody who tried to go down that route.

1595
01:35:34,319 --> 01:35:36,520
And I was just giving one easy example of the

1596
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:41,239
tension between the invariant and the variant of the This

1597
01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:44,319
is in philosophy. It's a problem of UH being in

1598
01:35:44,399 --> 01:35:49,640
stasis like flux and and change versus UH stasis and invariants.

1599
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:52,600
These are these are problems that come up that these

1600
01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:56,520
kinds of systems can't answer because they're well, they're they're

1601
01:35:56,680 --> 01:36:00,439
they're bad systems. But yes, you're correct, you could that one.

1602
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:02,640
There's a whole actually a whole list of problems that

1603
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:04,680
you could ask of Plato. A more fun I mean

1604
01:36:05,039 --> 01:36:09,159
and even more devastating one could just simply be well, Plato,

1605
01:36:09,319 --> 01:36:12,960
if if, if this is the case, why was there

1606
01:36:13,039 --> 01:36:18,800
ever distinction at all? Because remember the one the monad here, right,

1607
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:22,560
So in the Platonic system, the highest level reality is

1608
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,800
the one the monad. Quite literally, we're saying that numbers

1609
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:31,600
are a mystical thing, magical mystical lot up for the

1610
01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:36,760
number mystery too, the magical number mystery tour is coming

1611
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:42,000
to take you away reincarnation type stuff, right, Uh, literal

1612
01:36:42,079 --> 01:36:47,560
Beetles level stuff. Right. If this monad was perfect and

1613
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:53,119
in a state of unchanging invariants and flux in the primal,

1614
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:59,479
pre temporal, whatever ideal, why was there ever this split

1615
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:04,520
into to the diad. You see this, this one at

1616
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:07,640
some point split into the diad. This is Plato's view.

1617
01:37:08,039 --> 01:37:12,920
This is the the ancient mystic view, right, and this

1618
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:21,119
diad then produced you got it, a triad. And so

1619
01:37:21,319 --> 01:37:27,119
this diad that split, this caused noose, and this caused

1620
01:37:27,279 --> 01:37:31,880
the two of them together caused world soul. Now we're

1621
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:35,640
getting now, we're getting into the world soul, right, we're

1622
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:37,560
getting into this level of I mean, I'm not joking.

1623
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,880
This is the system. This is the ancient esoteric view.

1624
01:37:41,319 --> 01:37:45,199
The monad split into the noose mine, and then the

1625
01:37:45,279 --> 01:37:49,039
monad and mine produced world soul. This is the Platonic triad.

1626
01:37:49,159 --> 01:37:51,800
This is this has nothing to do with the biblical

1627
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:53,279
t vhe show.

1628
01:37:56,199 --> 01:37:56,319
Speaker 3: Uh.

1629
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,000
Speaker 4: But all we have to do is just look Plato bro,

1630
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:03,239
slow down here, dude, Like, why was there this split?

1631
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:05,920
Come on, what does that even mean that the one

1632
01:38:06,079 --> 01:38:09,960
split to noose. And he's getting this by reading like

1633
01:38:10,159 --> 01:38:16,960
ancient mythology texts. He's taking mythology and he's saying, you know, dude,

1634
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:19,920
there's like secret coded messages and the you know in

1635
01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:22,720
the ancient myths of you know, Zeus, and the split

1636
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:25,680
from you know, Athena comes from Zeus. That's like telling

1637
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:28,800
us of the original schism in the Golden Age. I mean,

1638
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:31,560
that's what he's doing here. And do you know where

1639
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:33,199
he says he got all this. I'm not joking, by

1640
01:38:33,239 --> 01:38:35,159
the way, if you don't know this, do you know

1641
01:38:35,199 --> 01:38:37,119
where he says he got all I'm not kidding where

1642
01:38:37,119 --> 01:38:37,920
he says he got this.

1643
01:38:39,439 --> 01:38:41,119
Speaker 5: Whatever the Snopes was back then.

1644
01:38:42,079 --> 01:38:47,079
Speaker 4: Oh no, it's even better. He says, I was taught

1645
01:38:47,119 --> 01:38:50,439
by a guy who was taught by a guy, right,

1646
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:53,279
because Plato was taught by Socrates, and Socrates was taught

1647
01:38:53,279 --> 01:38:56,119
by a dude named Solon. And Solon went on this

1648
01:38:56,279 --> 01:38:59,079
journey and he talked to the priests in Egypt, and

1649
01:38:59,159 --> 01:39:04,680
the priests in Egypt told him the ancient mysteries. Literally,

1650
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:09,159
Platonism is an ancient mystery school philosophy. So's it's a

1651
01:39:09,199 --> 01:39:12,439
hermetic philosophy of ancient ey, so he claims. I mean,

1652
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,479
scholars have debated whether this is all be us anyway.

1653
01:39:15,520 --> 01:39:20,199
Point is that, look, you can't escape this mythology element.

1654
01:39:20,479 --> 01:39:22,560
And I'm using mythology in a loose sense, not in

1655
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:24,840
the sense of everything being fake, because you could say,

1656
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,399
you could say Christianity is a mythology or just a narrative.

1657
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:31,039
What I'm getting so this is a narrative. Plato, for

1658
01:39:31,159 --> 01:39:35,840
all of his attempt at mathematizing everything, still has to

1659
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:41,399
rely on narrative, grand narrative explanation. Darwinism still has to

1660
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:45,359
rely on grand narrative stories. Even Aristotle, who was way

1661
01:39:45,439 --> 01:39:50,880
more scientific and empirical than Plato, still relied on narrative

1662
01:39:51,319 --> 01:39:55,479
grand stories of the first mover being love man.

1663
01:39:56,079 --> 01:39:57,840
Speaker 7: The first mover was love dude.

1664
01:39:58,439 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 4: So what I'm the point, It's just that none of

1665
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:06,359
these philosophies can ever escape narrative story. I don't mean

1666
01:40:06,399 --> 01:40:09,119
this in the Jordan Peterson sense. I'm just stating, what's.

1667
01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:11,119
Speaker 5: A factor wagons sneaks.

1668
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:16,600
Speaker 4: So therefore, so therefore, what we actually are doing when

1669
01:40:16,640 --> 01:40:19,840
we compare world views is not just comparing. You're correct

1670
01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:22,600
to say that we are comparing logical systems. We're also

1671
01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:28,119
comparing narratives, because every even the most rationalist materialist guy.

1672
01:40:29,319 --> 01:40:31,840
Let's take Birchran Russell. Remember when we did Russell. He's

1673
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:38,159
probably the pre eminent rationalist materialist empiricists. Loosely speaking, he's

1674
01:40:38,199 --> 01:40:39,920
not rational, but you know what I mean, right, the

1675
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:43,079
pre eminent logician, the greatest logician of the modern era,

1676
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:46,000
which is all bullshit, but let's just say that he is.

1677
01:40:47,239 --> 01:40:52,359
He begins his book by saying rational thinkers have forever

1678
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:57,119
been persecuted by religious dogmatists, and he lists the Hall

1679
01:40:57,239 --> 01:41:01,079
of Science, the heroes of the whole science. What's he

1680
01:41:01,199 --> 01:41:04,119
doing here? Is he doing science? No, he's telling a story.

1681
01:41:06,159 --> 01:41:11,359
And he's saying that the Galileo, Nicholas of Cusa, all

1682
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:15,560
of these different scientists persecuted by these irrational dogmatics, the

1683
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:18,039
Puritans burning the witches. And then we come up to

1684
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:21,560
now we are in the era of free thought and

1685
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:26,800
science and empirisis. He's telling a story that's not empirical evidence.

1686
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:31,079
Speaker 5: That's a story, right, I mean, what's his name? Hitchens

1687
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:36,600
as charming and he'd always be like I could do

1688
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:40,840
the world mean anything. The Andromeda is coming in great

1689
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:43,920
nothingness is going to hit you, and and and you

1690
01:41:44,039 --> 01:41:46,039
realize you're just you're already you're doing.

1691
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:50,479
Speaker 4: Have you watched Have you watched Carl? Yeah, he's like,

1692
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:56,359
we are all store were Did you hear that stupid

1693
01:41:56,439 --> 01:42:01,760
song that went viral? Remember a right? Yeah, Lawrence Krause,

1694
01:42:02,199 --> 01:42:06,840
pre eminent physicalist physical right, what does he say? We're

1695
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:09,960
made as star dust man? Oh yeah, we're destined for

1696
01:42:10,039 --> 01:42:13,840
the stars. Again. So they're always throw in the transhumitist

1697
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:15,800
bullshit because it's just a story they're telling you.

1698
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 5: I predict Lawrence Krause will have a ponytail in within

1699
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:21,479
ten years.

1700
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 4: We're made of Uh, let's see simulation, let's talk or

1701
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:28,920
not multiverse?

1702
01:42:29,359 --> 01:42:29,960
Speaker 5: Multiverse?

1703
01:42:31,079 --> 01:42:31,560
Speaker 4: Who did it come?

1704
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:36,199
Speaker 5: Was it the the crunched over guy? The is a

1705
01:42:36,520 --> 01:42:40,600
billion years the multi stuff? Yes?

1706
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:44,159
Speaker 4: Yes?

1707
01:42:44,439 --> 01:42:46,840
Speaker 5: Is that is that where it started? That's how he

1708
01:42:47,119 --> 01:42:50,640
justified Uh you know they were they found out there

1709
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:54,600
there wasn't actually enough energy to create the big bangs.

1710
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,359
They were like, well, there's probably more universe something about this,

1711
01:42:58,439 --> 01:42:59,319
but I'll just make.

1712
01:42:59,279 --> 01:43:01,840
Speaker 4: Up more of them. I don't remember the details. But

1713
01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:05,920
actually there's like a there is this weird I'm not

1714
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:09,680
joking about this. By the way, there's a weird sex

1715
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:13,039
magic component to the Big Bang stuff. Oh yeah, it's

1716
01:43:13,079 --> 01:43:15,880
it's actually evident in some of those people in their philosophy.

1717
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:22,079
But anyway, uh yeah, I know what. That's what I'm

1718
01:43:22,079 --> 01:43:24,520
saying is that the reason we're all made of star

1719
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:29,439
stuff and stardust, that's that's Crawley. That's all from Crowley, literally,

1720
01:43:30,439 --> 01:43:33,760
And Crawley was a he was transhumanist, like he I

1721
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:35,279
don't know if he said the bots will take over,

1722
01:43:35,399 --> 01:43:38,319
but he thought humans would eventually storm heaven. So that's

1723
01:43:38,359 --> 01:43:41,760
what transhumanism actually is. But by the way, you can

1724
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:45,159
ask your questions via stream labs. That's the replacement for

1725
01:43:45,199 --> 01:43:47,439
super chats. I'll put the link there. We've got a

1726
01:43:47,520 --> 01:43:49,079
lot of super chats. We're gonna get to you here

1727
01:43:49,279 --> 01:43:51,960
in a minute. Thank you all for that we got.

1728
01:43:52,199 --> 01:43:55,239
We've got a lot of generous people tonight, very very

1729
01:43:55,319 --> 01:43:56,039
thankful for all that.

1730
01:43:56,680 --> 01:43:59,920
Speaker 5: Hawking Mary and pretty much people think.

1731
01:44:00,319 --> 01:44:03,720
Speaker 4: It was just Stephen Hall. Dude. He's like, have you

1732
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:05,359
ever seen when they opened up the things that the

1733
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:07,520
little garbage cans of dolls are in. That's what they

1734
01:44:07,560 --> 01:44:09,479
look like. Stephen Hawking. I bet you he was them.

1735
01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:13,960
And when he was on Epstein's Island. By the way,

1736
01:44:14,279 --> 01:44:17,319
he was going up the hill to the little Saint

1737
01:44:17,399 --> 01:44:21,960
James Hill. Did you know his his wheelchair tipped over

1738
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:23,800
his did it?

1739
01:44:24,119 --> 01:44:26,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's just a nome.

1740
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:31,720
Speaker 4: What well, all of these like triple A batteries, like

1741
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:33,960
five hundred triple A batteries fell out because this whole

1742
01:44:34,039 --> 01:44:35,800
thing runs on five A.

1743
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:37,079
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1744
01:44:37,159 --> 01:44:38,560
Speaker 4: That was a stupid joke. I came out.

1745
01:44:38,560 --> 01:44:38,920
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1746
01:44:39,319 --> 01:44:43,640
Speaker 4: Forget that. I'm sorry. But he was actually with Epstein.

1747
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:45,159
That's well he.

1748
01:44:45,239 --> 01:44:50,399
Speaker 5: Got he got U was watching he got submarined into

1749
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:56,439
epstein Island, so he went and uh, you know, I

1750
01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:58,520
don't know. That's what I actually have idea.

1751
01:44:58,840 --> 01:45:01,079
Speaker 4: That was one of your You actually made me cry

1752
01:45:01,279 --> 01:45:06,479
with the that literally made me cry laughing? Which one

1753
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:09,319
the one with him and oswatch shut Guard?

1754
01:45:10,079 --> 01:45:12,800
Speaker 5: Oh yeah yeah, let me actually have this. I'll see

1755
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:14,720
if I can get it on the screen.

1756
01:45:19,079 --> 01:45:19,880
Speaker 4: This made me cry.

1757
01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:25,680
Speaker 6: Tell you about my vacation. I took a plane called

1758
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:28,880
Lowly to Express to a private island owned by a

1759
01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:31,880
man named Jeffree. I had such a good time and

1760
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:37,039
some drinks and like some entertainment by some tasty snacks,

1761
01:45:38,039 --> 01:45:40,600
would very much like to go back because he puts

1762
01:45:40,640 --> 01:45:41,560
such a good time.

1763
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:42,319
Speaker 3: Ship was lit.

1764
01:45:44,159 --> 01:45:48,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's some like footage that showed up later

1765
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:49,760
that I got ahold of.

1766
01:45:50,439 --> 01:45:52,520
Speaker 4: By the way, you'll want I want to see more

1767
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:57,479
of that hilarious satirical imagery from Jim Bob. You can

1768
01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:05,319
go to his ig, his instagram, and his website is linked. Multiverse.

1769
01:46:05,399 --> 01:46:08,560
One thing, one way that's easy to refute this multiverse

1770
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:11,760
nonsense is that just as we were showing before with

1771
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:16,359
like language, assuming a lot of principles of epistemology predication.

1772
01:46:17,039 --> 01:46:22,039
So all of these scientific theorist people and these they're

1773
01:46:22,079 --> 01:46:24,239
more like science fiction writers, is actually what they are.

1774
01:46:25,399 --> 01:46:28,479
They don't realize as we said that they're using a

1775
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:33,600
lot of assumptions and principles objective truths just to make sentences.

1776
01:46:34,239 --> 01:46:36,359
So one thing that we do when we do philosophy,

1777
01:46:36,359 --> 01:46:39,399
Aristotle pioneered this idea of like the law of identity,

1778
01:46:40,039 --> 01:46:43,239
and in logic it is just a equals a right.

1779
01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:47,760
That's an assumption, a logical assumption that for a thing

1780
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:51,039
to be identified or picked out or spoken of, or

1781
01:46:51,359 --> 01:46:56,600
explained or perceived or whatever to have meaning, it must

1782
01:46:56,680 --> 01:46:58,920
have identity. It must be able to be picked out

1783
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:02,760
amongst all of these other things. So whatever that thing's

1784
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:06,399
essence is or whatever we're doing, it has some identity.

1785
01:47:06,439 --> 01:47:11,439
It has some particular feature that makes it a one, singular, unified,

1786
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:16,479
particular a thing, that thing as opposed to things that thing. Right,

1787
01:47:17,119 --> 01:47:20,920
So that law of identity is obviously necessary for any

1788
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:23,920
kind of meaningful predication. For me to talk to Gembob,

1789
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:26,119
I have to be picking out that dude right there,

1790
01:47:26,279 --> 01:47:29,119
not every single gymbob in the world, right, not every

1791
01:47:29,159 --> 01:47:34,520
single dude. So law of identity is obviously fundamental to

1792
01:47:36,359 --> 01:47:39,880
reasoning in this world, to basic predication, to knowledge. Right,

1793
01:47:41,079 --> 01:47:45,479
I know that fact? Right? That fact is that fact

1794
01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:49,800
because of the law of identity. Now, in really abstract

1795
01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:53,840
philosophy and meta level questions, it's not always going to

1796
01:47:53,920 --> 01:47:56,920
hold in this real easy, simple way, But for most

1797
01:47:56,960 --> 01:48:01,239
of the time, in normative philosophical discourse, argumentation, homology, the

1798
01:48:01,319 --> 01:48:08,079
law of identity holds. And again, that thing must be

1799
01:48:08,199 --> 01:48:10,760
that thing to talk about that thing, right, So it's

1800
01:48:10,840 --> 01:48:15,600
it's a logical assumption that's really simple. Now, we as

1801
01:48:15,680 --> 01:48:18,279
humans are a little more complex because you know, it's

1802
01:48:18,359 --> 01:48:21,119
it's a little bit more difficult to define what a

1803
01:48:21,199 --> 01:48:23,600
human is, or what Jay is, or what Jimbob is,

1804
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:26,079
or who that person is. Right, that's that's a little

1805
01:48:26,159 --> 01:48:31,159
more difficult, a little more metaphysical, but regardless, even still

1806
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:34,319
law of identity applies to all of us too, right,

1807
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:37,439
I mean Jay has to be Ja to be explained

1808
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:41,039
or known as Jay. I can't also, at the same

1809
01:48:41,119 --> 01:48:46,399
time be Jimbob. That's impossible for the created world for

1810
01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:49,520
us to reason and make sense of it. I can't

1811
01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:53,159
at the same time be not me. Ja is not Jay.

1812
01:48:53,600 --> 01:48:58,359
That's nonsense statement. Right, Jay is popcorn. That's nonsense.

1813
01:48:58,560 --> 01:48:58,680
Speaker 1: Right.

1814
01:49:00,119 --> 01:49:06,600
Speaker 4: So there's some static feature that something that is in

1815
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:15,800
stasis that's perpetually true, a law of identity, a continuing

1816
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:19,640
feature of my existence that doesn't change. I might grow

1817
01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:23,800
gray hair, it might all fall out. I might, you know,

1818
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:27,560
have a lot of soy and grow some big old titties.

1819
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:31,000
I mean those things might happen, but I'm still in

1820
01:49:31,159 --> 01:49:34,520
some sense the core me right. I mean, I got

1821
01:49:34,520 --> 01:49:36,800
beautiful titties now, but I might grow some big ones. Right,

1822
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:42,560
same for you. I mean I haven't seen your titties.

1823
01:49:42,319 --> 01:49:47,199
Speaker 5: But probably I've got dad tits now. It's like there

1824
01:49:47,920 --> 01:49:50,079
they grew a little bit from holding the baby a lot,

1825
01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:55,760
and that's just a normal reaction. But I'm keeping them

1826
01:49:55,840 --> 01:49:57,239
at a good size.

1827
01:49:57,319 --> 01:49:58,760
Speaker 4: So we could say that the so we'll put the

1828
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:01,079
law of identity there, But there's all so other features

1829
01:50:01,239 --> 01:50:03,760
that have occurred in time and space, in this war,

1830
01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:06,640
in this world that all kind of also go into

1831
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:09,680
making us who we are. They might not be essential characteristics,

1832
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:11,640
but we could say that in a way they're kind

1833
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:17,239
of secondary necessary qualities. For example, the only me that's

1834
01:50:17,319 --> 01:50:19,880
me is the one that was born in Paris, Tennessee, right,

1835
01:50:20,199 --> 01:50:22,439
I mean I'm from Tennessee. That's where I was born.

1836
01:50:23,039 --> 01:50:25,640
That has to be that. That's in a way a

1837
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:29,600
kind of secondary necessity about who I am. There's not

1838
01:50:29,720 --> 01:50:33,000
going to be a jay that is me that wasn't

1839
01:50:33,079 --> 01:50:37,000
also born there. You see, So even historical features of

1840
01:50:37,079 --> 01:50:39,319
our life, this is a this is an argument that

1841
01:50:39,399 --> 01:50:43,640
Leven has proposed. They're not strictly necessary in terms of

1842
01:50:43,680 --> 01:50:47,079
our essence per se, but once they've come to pass,

1843
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:50,359
they kind of have a secondary necessity to us, and

1844
01:50:50,439 --> 01:50:52,359
that that that's not going to change. You're not going

1845
01:50:52,439 --> 01:50:56,760
to be the jimbob who was born on Epstein island, right,

1846
01:50:57,119 --> 01:51:01,239
You're not going to be that dude tomorrow. So when

1847
01:51:01,319 --> 01:51:04,520
we think about it in that way, that's who we are,

1848
01:51:04,760 --> 01:51:08,600
at least to this point in time. And it would

1849
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,159
be absurd to start doubting those things. Right Like you

1850
01:51:11,239 --> 01:51:14,279
could say, well, I don't believe that the past ever occurred. Well, okay,

1851
01:51:14,399 --> 01:51:16,840
but that's gonna be that's gonna lead you into absurdities

1852
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:18,239
to say that if you want to go that route.

1853
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:22,800
But since we don't go that route, then those are

1854
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,159
all in a way related to our identities and who

1855
01:51:25,199 --> 01:51:29,000
we are. So if we're going to even talk about me,

1856
01:51:30,199 --> 01:51:35,600
to posit that there's also me in a universe that's

1857
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:39,840
all butts and farts, not only is that absurd, but

1858
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:45,359
that's not me because that's violating the law of identity

1859
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:50,079
because by definition, me is this me. I have no basis,

1860
01:51:50,199 --> 01:51:55,560
no knowledge, no way to even posit the possibility of

1861
01:51:55,680 --> 01:51:59,079
a me that's not this world me that's also over

1862
01:51:59,119 --> 01:52:04,000
there in fart dimension. It's utterly nonsense. But in order

1863
01:52:04,119 --> 01:52:07,680
to argue about that other dimension, I'm still assuming regularity

1864
01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:11,159
and the properties of identity in this world. That's why

1865
01:52:11,159 --> 01:52:12,720
it doesn't work. Right.

1866
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:18,399
Speaker 5: And then even if you somehow acquired even a blip

1867
01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:23,479
or a taste of that other universe. Like I said

1868
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:26,880
at the beginning, you it would now be in this universe,

1869
01:52:27,119 --> 01:52:29,680
Like how could you separate it if you if you

1870
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:32,319
obtained it, if you got to it, if you reached in,

1871
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:36,880
you know, like stranger things through the weird vaginal hole

1872
01:52:37,039 --> 01:52:41,439
in the wall. It's now a part of this universe

1873
01:52:41,479 --> 01:52:44,720
in a way. Like so even even dimensions that theory

1874
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:47,399
is like if you ever got to the point where

1875
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:53,159
you proved it, you'd only be showing more of this reality,

1876
01:52:53,399 --> 01:52:55,640
more of this universe, exactly right.

1877
01:52:55,680 --> 01:52:58,239
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, there's an assumption that, yeah, let's say

1878
01:52:58,239 --> 01:53:00,840
I have a d MT trip or uh, let's say

1879
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:03,119
that Christianity is true and I have a vision of

1880
01:53:03,199 --> 01:53:05,319
this the spirit realm like some of the prophets like

1881
01:53:05,359 --> 01:53:07,039
Ezekiel did or something like that. Let's say, for the

1882
01:53:07,079 --> 01:53:09,840
second argument, that's true. That doesn't necessitate that it's a

1883
01:53:10,199 --> 01:53:14,359
an infinite multiverse of all potentialities. That's a non sequitor.

1884
01:53:14,439 --> 01:53:16,039
I mean that could just be higher dimensions of this

1885
01:53:16,159 --> 01:53:20,439
universe exactly so. But they I mean again keep in mind,

1886
01:53:20,479 --> 01:53:23,800
the people that are believing this are total like you know,

1887
01:53:24,039 --> 01:53:26,199
just bugman type people. They don't even they don't even

1888
01:53:26,279 --> 01:53:29,680
think about the absurdities of it. They're just loving the

1889
01:53:30,199 --> 01:53:33,560
You know, we live in a multi like God doesn't exist,

1890
01:53:33,600 --> 01:53:36,720
that's all absurd. But there are infinite realities where I

1891
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:39,119
can go be a god right back, and there's some

1892
01:53:39,239 --> 01:53:41,760
reality where I'm a god. Basically I'm lording over my

1893
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:44,600
and I can turn you all to cheese by touching

1894
01:53:44,680 --> 01:53:47,960
you and haha, you're cheese now, and you just fall

1895
01:53:48,039 --> 01:53:49,399
onto the ground into a big puff.

1896
01:53:49,560 --> 01:53:49,640
Speaker 6: Right.

1897
01:53:50,119 --> 01:53:52,520
Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's the that's like the ultimate kind

1898
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:55,880
of story fantasy, right, That's why that appeals to that

1899
01:53:56,199 --> 01:53:59,880
type of person and has do What is the imp

1900
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:03,199
spirical basis for that nothing? I mean, all of these

1901
01:54:03,199 --> 01:54:07,479
people are science obsessed empiricists. There's no empirical evidence for

1902
01:54:07,560 --> 01:54:13,920
that nonsense dreams really Well again, I mean if that's

1903
01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:18,239
the case, then all absurdities are also real. If all

1904
01:54:18,279 --> 01:54:22,279
assertinities are real, then there is no logic. There is

1905
01:54:22,359 --> 01:54:26,680
no consistency, because how do we know that the logic

1906
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,119
and rational that but that we possess in this world

1907
01:54:29,279 --> 01:54:31,840
is actually the real one or the logical consistent one.

1908
01:54:32,119 --> 01:54:34,359
Maybe there's the fart maybe in the fart dimension that's

1909
01:54:34,399 --> 01:54:37,000
actually more logical or the real one. Right, It's just

1910
01:54:37,159 --> 01:54:39,039
it all reduces to absurdity.

1911
01:54:39,079 --> 01:54:43,479
Speaker 5: Right exactly. You'd have to Yeah, who who could Who

1912
01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:47,520
could argue the one reality is the true one to

1913
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:50,520
measure two? I mean, you just couldn't. It would just

1914
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:51,119
never end.

1915
01:54:51,359 --> 01:54:53,479
Speaker 4: And by the way, I have Brian, I have Lisa

1916
01:54:53,560 --> 01:54:55,880
Randall's books. I have Brian Green's book where he I've read.

1917
01:54:56,039 --> 01:54:58,640
I know what the arguments are, and they're like, oh, well,

1918
01:54:58,880 --> 01:55:01,600
if we think about in infinite space and the fact

1919
01:55:01,640 --> 01:55:04,000
that it's going on forever, which by the way, is

1920
01:55:04,039 --> 01:55:06,239
not an empirical proof, that's just an assumption because you

1921
01:55:06,239 --> 01:55:09,319
can't empirically improve infinity going off in that direction or

1922
01:55:09,359 --> 01:55:13,159
any direction. That's just an assumption because you don't empirically

1923
01:55:13,239 --> 01:55:17,680
see something infinite, Right, you're assuming that it is light

1924
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:19,840
goes in that direction forevery know, how do you know that?

1925
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:22,199
You don't know that maybe it appears to it, but

1926
01:55:22,279 --> 01:55:22,840
it doesn't really.

1927
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:23,119
Speaker 5: Right.

1928
01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:25,720
Speaker 4: The argument is just that, well, if we think about

1929
01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:28,680
it continuing to go, then it stands to reason that

1930
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:31,880
at some point you would hit another universe. And if

1931
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:34,079
you would hit another universe. It stands to reason that

1932
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:37,479
that universe might have all the characteristics of this universe,

1933
01:55:37,560 --> 01:55:39,640
and therefore it could also be an infinite So the

1934
01:55:39,760 --> 01:55:43,000
argument is just that if things continue in all infinity,

1935
01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:50,960
in all directions, for all infinite reality, then all potentialities

1936
01:55:51,039 --> 01:55:55,159
must therefore become actualities. That's the atity of this, right.

1937
01:55:55,279 --> 01:55:58,520
So what is the basis for this? Their minds. So

1938
01:55:58,640 --> 01:56:03,199
they make their mind the godmind. This is the source

1939
01:56:03,239 --> 01:56:07,119
of logos for them, because remember, there's no logos out

1940
01:56:07,159 --> 01:56:10,319
there in the world. The world doesn't actually possess that feature.

1941
01:56:11,079 --> 01:56:14,960
It's only in here in man's mind. But man's mind

1942
01:56:15,159 --> 01:56:20,039
is not actually a logos. It's just chemical reactions. There's

1943
01:56:20,079 --> 01:56:22,840
no basis to believe. They just they just and they'll say, well,

1944
01:56:22,920 --> 01:56:25,239
let's act as if it is. Yes, we know, it's

1945
01:56:25,279 --> 01:56:28,159
just chemical reactions. We can't improve there's consciousness. Let's just

1946
01:56:28,239 --> 01:56:30,680
act as if let's play it.

1947
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:33,920
Speaker 5: It's funny. That's funny because the starting point doesn't even

1948
01:56:34,359 --> 01:56:40,319
uh affirm that this reality is even believable to even

1949
01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:45,920
start the exploration into other universes, you're already starting from

1950
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:48,880
a broken, broken place where nothing could be known to

1951
01:56:48,920 --> 01:56:53,239
be true, which even though that's completely absurd, it doesn't

1952
01:56:53,279 --> 01:56:57,720
it it I'm not surprised that they can extrapolate if

1953
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:00,279
nothing is true, then anything can be true and weird,

1954
01:57:00,479 --> 01:57:03,920
funny dumb way, you know, like you know, why why

1955
01:57:04,000 --> 01:57:06,720
can't be this? Why can't all the books behind J

1956
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:10,239
be also you know little J, little J dyers and

1957
01:57:10,319 --> 01:57:12,159
they have a being, we just can't access them.

1958
01:57:12,199 --> 01:57:12,359
Speaker 6: Man.

1959
01:57:13,079 --> 01:57:15,479
Speaker 5: And then and they all found you because you are them,

1960
01:57:15,640 --> 01:57:18,800
and and they they glowed a little bit before you

1961
01:57:19,239 --> 01:57:22,720
you bought them, and like whatever, it's like we're you know,

1962
01:57:23,479 --> 01:57:26,319
we're where nothing is true than anything can be a

1963
01:57:26,479 --> 01:57:30,560
proposed sort of reality because there's no constraint. But it's

1964
01:57:30,640 --> 01:57:36,439
so dumb because you are left appealing to language needing

1965
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:39,239
to have meaning. The words need to have meaning to

1966
01:57:39,359 --> 01:57:42,560
make the claim of metaverse, the numbers, the.

1967
01:57:42,680 --> 01:57:45,720
Speaker 4: Logical universals, any particulars I need.

1968
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:48,640
Speaker 5: All Yeah, everything you said, Yeah you have to be

1969
01:57:48,760 --> 01:57:51,840
you to make to be even you know, talk about it.

1970
01:57:53,600 --> 01:57:56,840
So yeah, then there's then there's the not so you know,

1971
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:00,640
like you were mentioned the typical like bond smoker stoners

1972
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:03,319
who they're not really invested in it. They're just kind

1973
01:58:03,359 --> 01:58:06,560
of like like it's fun. But then there's like you know,

1974
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:09,760
right now, there's you know, the theorists who are you know,

1975
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:12,560
writing their novels and coming up with the next big

1976
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:18,439
theory of all of it, and they it always leans

1977
01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:22,880
toward those those theories. Yes, where how inaccessible truth?

1978
01:58:23,319 --> 01:58:23,439
Speaker 4: Right?

1979
01:58:24,119 --> 01:58:26,000
Speaker 5: Is the leading proposition?

1980
01:58:26,199 --> 01:58:29,079
Speaker 4: Basically, so, how do I refute multiverse theory by this?

1981
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:32,079
This is the This is what the multiverse, dude is doing.

1982
01:58:32,279 --> 01:58:34,720
I use the law of identity to deny identity. That's

1983
01:58:34,880 --> 01:58:38,640
the that you ready for super chats or do you

1984
01:58:38,680 --> 01:58:39,760
want to go in another direction?

1985
01:58:40,159 --> 01:58:40,560
Speaker 5: That's good?

1986
01:58:40,800 --> 01:58:47,800
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, we got home, mad E t Error.

1987
01:58:48,039 --> 01:58:50,039
I'm not going to read his name because that's a

1988
01:58:51,079 --> 01:58:54,640
violation name. He sends five dollars. Thank you, Tall City

1989
01:58:55,000 --> 01:58:59,399
three five bucks. What's up, dude, Tall City. Well, we

1990
01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:03,600
know that I'm not gonna make a short joke hurt

1991
01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:07,479
people's feelings. Don don one hundred dollars, he says. Keep

1992
01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:09,079
up the good work, brother, Well, I will keep up

1993
01:59:09,079 --> 01:59:10,600
the good work as long as you send me one

1994
01:59:10,640 --> 01:59:11,279
hundred dollars.

1995
01:59:11,399 --> 01:59:11,640
Speaker 7: Dude.

1996
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:16,960
Speaker 4: That's gonna feed me for an hour. John three dollars,

1997
01:59:17,039 --> 01:59:20,800
he says. If there was no Satan, but man is

1998
01:59:20,880 --> 01:59:25,079
still falling. I mean, for us, the whole narrative stands

1999
01:59:25,159 --> 01:59:27,279
or falls together, So it wouldn't really make sense to

2000
01:59:28,479 --> 01:59:31,640
speak a man falling without the temptation of Satan. But

2001
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:33,960
he says, do you think that the world would look

2002
01:59:34,000 --> 01:59:35,520
the same as it is today? Yeah? I just think

2003
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:38,560
that's a that's an impossible question. That's like, what if

2004
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:41,199
you know, God created a world where there weren't humans,

2005
01:59:41,319 --> 01:59:41,920
what would.

2006
01:59:41,680 --> 01:59:41,960
Speaker 5: It be like?

2007
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:42,319
Speaker 7: I don't know.

2008
01:59:43,039 --> 01:59:46,720
Speaker 4: Mac Marco ten dollars. Have you ever heard of the

2009
01:59:47,159 --> 01:59:51,760
mathematicians that deny the existence of infinity? Yes, it makes

2010
01:59:53,960 --> 02:00:01,199
sense from a materialistic worldview. Too bad, materialism itself is flawed.

2011
02:00:01,399 --> 02:00:01,600
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2012
02:00:01,720 --> 02:00:04,479
Speaker 4: I mean, at a certain point, those people are kind

2013
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:07,640
of just talking in circles and they're they're using words

2014
02:00:07,680 --> 02:00:09,359
and then turning around saying, well, but we don't Actually

2015
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:14,359
there's potentially an infinite number of numbers, but they're also

2016
02:00:14,520 --> 02:00:17,640
not really infinite. Or we can divide the number one

2017
02:00:17,840 --> 02:00:19,960
infinite number of times, but infinity is not actually a

2018
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:25,159
real thing. Okay, well, but all of these other scientism

2019
02:00:25,279 --> 02:00:30,439
proponents proposed that the universe is infinite, So now it's not.

2020
02:00:30,600 --> 02:00:33,319
You see, it's it's just constant, like it's just people

2021
02:00:33,439 --> 02:00:35,319
making Shut up, dude, that's what it is. That's that

2022
02:00:35,439 --> 02:00:36,199
some point. What do you think?

2023
02:00:37,760 --> 02:00:39,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, that sounds about right.

2024
02:00:39,359 --> 02:00:42,159
Speaker 4: There's a great quote of we need to find this quote.

2025
02:00:42,199 --> 02:00:44,720
It was somewhere on YouTube, but it's William Shatner and

2026
02:00:44,800 --> 02:00:47,119
he was talking about hanging out with like NASA people,

2027
02:00:47,319 --> 02:00:51,079
and then he saw the you know, supposed NASA stuff

2028
02:00:51,159 --> 02:00:53,439
and he went and toured it, like the ships and whatnot.

2029
02:00:53,800 --> 02:00:56,720
Then he met with all these NASA people and heard

2030
02:00:56,840 --> 02:00:59,399
a bunch of their lectures and he said, my god,

2031
02:00:59,600 --> 02:01:03,119
I really it's all just theory, right, he said, He

2032
02:01:03,239 --> 02:01:06,319
literally says, it's a sciences not a theory.

2033
02:01:06,439 --> 02:01:08,239
Speaker 5: Look just look at that real footage.

2034
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:13,760
Speaker 4: But but William Shatner says, think about he's Captain Kirk

2035
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:16,439
and he's working with all these science fiction writers. He

2036
02:01:16,560 --> 02:01:19,680
meets all these science guys and he says, it's not

2037
02:01:19,760 --> 02:01:21,520
a convention. Actually, if you find the video on YouTube,

2038
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:23,920
it's him at a convention being interviewed and he says,

2039
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:27,680
I realized the scientists at NASA are no different than

2040
02:01:28,119 --> 02:01:31,840
the science fiction writers that work on the show, because

2041
02:01:31,840 --> 02:01:37,000
they're just making it up. Yeah, annoying questions. Three bucks.

2042
02:01:38,439 --> 02:01:43,640
Why do you need incoherent models to compare your model

2043
02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:46,880
to to justify your model? I don't need them, but

2044
02:01:47,279 --> 02:01:50,000
there are incoherent models, and so it's kind of just

2045
02:01:50,079 --> 02:01:52,399
an unavoidable thing. That's like saying, why do you need

2046
02:01:52,479 --> 02:01:55,199
a bad argument to compare to a good argument? I mean,

2047
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:58,279
there are bad arguments. So how else are you going

2048
02:01:58,359 --> 02:02:02,079
to compare bad art arguments other than comparing them to

2049
02:02:02,239 --> 02:02:05,279
good arguments? I mean that's kind of like unavoidable, bro,

2050
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:10,960
But I appreciate that. Three dollars. You're banning your your

2051
02:02:11,279 --> 02:02:15,479
urban moving systems, You're banning movings, your band to six

2052
02:02:15,600 --> 02:02:18,079
seventy eight YouTube? Do you monetize you?

2053
02:02:18,199 --> 02:02:18,399
Speaker 1: Yes?

2054
02:02:19,840 --> 02:02:24,359
Speaker 4: I love your essential hero video response to mister Guta

2055
02:02:24,439 --> 02:02:27,119
main Hyde. I watched it so many times like a

2056
02:02:27,239 --> 02:02:30,079
sperg Yes, Sam liked it too. I sent it to

2057
02:02:30,159 --> 02:02:31,960
him he got a kick out of it. Thank you

2058
02:02:32,039 --> 02:02:35,439
for that. Shaw'sby thirteen five dollars. Do you think atheists

2059
02:02:35,560 --> 02:02:37,520
are by the way, I'm not trying to leave you out, Jimbob,

2060
02:02:37,560 --> 02:02:42,880
if you want to say anything, super chats. Do you

2061
02:02:42,960 --> 02:02:48,079
think atheists are hesitant to try to justify their presuppositions

2062
02:02:48,159 --> 02:02:52,960
out of bad faith. Yeah, often, what do you think.

2063
02:02:55,640 --> 02:02:59,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think I think it's also out

2064
02:02:59,239 --> 02:03:03,039
of like I think there's a level I remember, just

2065
02:03:03,239 --> 02:03:06,439
not too long ago, I mean two years ago or

2066
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:09,720
two and a half years ago, I was pretty staunch atheist,

2067
02:03:09,920 --> 02:03:14,680
and there was a shame factor of like not shame,

2068
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:17,119
like you don't want to go out on a ledge

2069
02:03:17,399 --> 02:03:24,399
where you look silly or you start, you know, playing

2070
02:03:24,479 --> 02:03:27,760
with ideas that you cannot base in material because your

2071
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:31,119
whole crew is all like, yes, science man, you know,

2072
02:03:31,319 --> 02:03:34,199
like and so you don't want to explore these things.

2073
02:03:34,319 --> 02:03:37,279
So there's a little bit of like the same phenomenon

2074
02:03:37,359 --> 02:03:40,880
of wearing face mask, you know, it's like but that's

2075
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:44,560
why I think the conversations are for those people who

2076
02:03:45,399 --> 02:03:47,880
are in that place and they do want to explore

2077
02:03:47,960 --> 02:03:51,720
truth and be challenged. They exist. But like Jay said,

2078
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:54,560
you know, like casting the net, it's going to be

2079
02:03:54,600 --> 02:03:58,760
a lower percentage yield, but it'll really make a difference

2080
02:04:00,079 --> 02:04:02,720
for the people that are interested, and they won't know

2081
02:04:02,880 --> 02:04:06,840
to be interested unless you're also having the conversation and talking.

2082
02:04:07,239 --> 02:04:11,039
Just like myself, I was interested and I found the

2083
02:04:11,159 --> 02:04:14,079
right people, you know, and I approached them, you know,

2084
02:04:15,119 --> 02:04:18,680
I went on on Jay's show, I went on Owen's show.

2085
02:04:18,800 --> 02:04:23,960
I was prodded, you know what I mean. So, I mean,

2086
02:04:24,000 --> 02:04:28,359
I guess you're right, but also don't discard them, you know,

2087
02:04:28,600 --> 02:04:33,640
don't you know, don't just embarrass an atheists.

2088
02:04:33,319 --> 02:04:33,520
Speaker 6: You know.

2089
02:04:34,640 --> 02:04:38,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's good points. Penny Row five dollars. Thank you

2090
02:04:38,560 --> 02:04:41,840
for this conversation. I'm really in loving it. I love you, Jim, Bob,

2091
02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:47,199
Penny Rou Thanks Pennyrou, dan Man five bucks. What do

2092
02:04:47,239 --> 02:04:50,640
you think about the prophecies of Saint Pizis, Cosmos Elder,

2093
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:55,720
Joseph Elder, Joseph on Haigio, Sofia, recapturing Constantinople. Yeah, I mean,

2094
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:58,920
I've seen these for a decade. I'm not totally discounting them.

2095
02:04:58,960 --> 02:05:01,720
But sometimes these things are made up, Sometimes they're forgery,

2096
02:05:01,840 --> 02:05:05,279
sometimes they're used for geopolitical motivations. I don't really have

2097
02:05:05,359 --> 02:05:08,159
any opinion on them, so I hope I didn't hurt

2098
02:05:08,199 --> 02:05:12,159
your feelings there. But I'm more interested in what I

2099
02:05:12,399 --> 02:05:15,640
can argue and confirm, you know, from scripture, that kind

2100
02:05:15,640 --> 02:05:19,600
of stuff. But I'm not discounting that there can be

2101
02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:24,159
real clairvoyance. Absolutely. Lone star twenty bucks. I appreciate y'all's work.

2102
02:05:24,199 --> 02:05:28,119
I can literally feel my brain expanding making new connections

2103
02:05:28,159 --> 02:05:31,520
every time I watch y'all's stuff. Thank you very much.

2104
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:34,920
And yeah, Jim Bob is also very based and good

2105
02:05:35,000 --> 02:05:37,680
at I see him in the comments. Man, he just

2106
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:40,520
kind of dissects these people like like a surgeon. Dude.

2107
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:40,840
He's like.

2108
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:43,399
Speaker 5: Just cutting them up.

2109
02:05:43,439 --> 02:05:48,039
Speaker 4: Baby, He's like a ninja with arguments. He's getting really

2110
02:05:48,079 --> 02:05:51,760
good at debate. Rusty Shackle for fifty bucks. The way

2111
02:05:51,800 --> 02:05:53,680
that you two guys chat, by the way, that's a

2112
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:56,119
fat super chat. I thank you, Rusty. The way YouTube

2113
02:05:56,199 --> 02:06:00,279
chat seems to make philosophical terms easier for or my

2114
02:06:00,479 --> 02:06:03,399
low IQ self. Don't talk about yourself like that, Rusty.

2115
02:06:04,279 --> 02:06:06,560
Thank you and God bless well. Glad that we can

2116
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:09,560
make these things accessible. That's that's kind of the point.

2117
02:06:10,239 --> 02:06:13,000
Speaker 5: That's also why I really enjoyed coming on, as I'm

2118
02:06:13,359 --> 02:06:19,439
a novice still logic, philosophy, theism and uh and uh

2119
02:06:19,800 --> 02:06:23,680
a part of my you know, back and forth with

2120
02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:29,039
Jay it actually forces him out of the higher level terminology,

2121
02:06:29,520 --> 02:06:31,800
you know, because that is used to debating with people

2122
02:06:31,920 --> 02:06:35,600
or talking because it's just like an established level of

2123
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:41,399
uh you know, words, definitions and things like that, and uh,

2124
02:06:41,840 --> 02:06:45,479
you know it's uh it's helpful. You know, it's helpful

2125
02:06:45,600 --> 02:06:50,039
for for him to, uh Jay, for you to you know,

2126
02:06:50,920 --> 02:06:53,279
dumb it down for someone who's at my level, because

2127
02:06:53,279 --> 02:06:55,079
there's a lot of there's a lot more people at

2128
02:06:55,119 --> 02:06:59,159
my level than at your level. And so, you know,

2129
02:06:59,640 --> 02:07:02,279
I mean even when you went on you know, what's

2130
02:07:02,319 --> 02:07:05,560
his name, he was even lost in some terms Stefan.

2131
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:08,119
He was like, you just like educate me. I haven't

2132
02:07:08,520 --> 02:07:11,039
heard of any of these things, you know. So that

2133
02:07:11,239 --> 02:07:14,880
just shows like there is a there's a pool of

2134
02:07:15,000 --> 02:07:18,199
people who are really interested in this stuff, but there

2135
02:07:18,279 --> 02:07:21,359
has to be an accessible layer.

2136
02:07:21,239 --> 02:07:24,680
Speaker 4: To it, you know, right, Thanks Man, I appreciate that

2137
02:07:24,760 --> 02:07:29,279
those kind of words. Anybody interested in what we talked

2138
02:07:29,319 --> 02:07:32,119
about tonight, I highly recommend doctor Jason Lyles's little book,

2139
02:07:32,199 --> 02:07:35,600
Ultimate Proof. It's a really good introduction to the topics

2140
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:39,560
that we have been discussing at an accessible level. It's

2141
02:07:39,640 --> 02:07:42,920
not written for the technical philosopher person. It's written at

2142
02:07:43,199 --> 02:07:47,439
a pretty accessible level. Dan Man three dollars. Again, he says,

2143
02:07:47,439 --> 02:07:49,079
do you know about electric universe theory?

2144
02:07:49,199 --> 02:07:49,319
Speaker 8: Yes?

2145
02:07:49,439 --> 02:07:49,600
Speaker 5: I do.

2146
02:07:49,680 --> 02:07:53,359
Speaker 4: I've watched many of those videos eight years ago when

2147
02:07:53,359 --> 02:07:55,239
they first proposed it. I followed it for a while,

2148
02:07:55,319 --> 02:07:59,159
listening to the podcast for a while. I don't I'm

2149
02:07:59,199 --> 02:08:02,279
not saying it's all. I don't know. I love to

2150
02:08:02,359 --> 02:08:06,119
hear different theories. It would be very cool if electric

2151
02:08:06,159 --> 02:08:09,680
universe theory was correct. It sounds pretty I don't know,

2152
02:08:09,880 --> 02:08:13,720
like I mean, lightning and shit, that's just cool, right,

2153
02:08:13,880 --> 02:08:14,279
I don't know.

2154
02:08:14,680 --> 02:08:14,760
Speaker 6: But.

2155
02:08:16,479 --> 02:08:18,880
Speaker 4: Jimbob, do you have any opinion on it?

2156
02:08:19,479 --> 02:08:22,680
Speaker 5: I probably only watched like one video, probably not the

2157
02:08:23,279 --> 02:08:27,439
person you're talking about, But I mean, like you said,

2158
02:08:27,520 --> 02:08:30,760
it sounds cool. It's hard to like really understand it

2159
02:08:30,760 --> 02:08:36,720
because you're actually taking you know, terms and paradigms that

2160
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:42,439
are in the physical natural physical and trying to, you know,

2161
02:08:42,600 --> 02:08:46,199
create a model out there that we can't access. And

2162
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:50,479
it kind of forces you to explain, you know, how

2163
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:53,800
you were saying the things, you know, like the Bonson thing.

2164
02:08:53,960 --> 02:08:56,359
I was just watching your review of the Bonson debate

2165
02:08:56,479 --> 02:08:59,359
or whatever. Oh yeah, Steining or whatever, and like that

2166
02:08:59,520 --> 02:09:02,680
that key point where the things that you know to

2167
02:09:02,760 --> 02:09:06,800
be true aren't accessed or debated or proven the same way.

2168
02:09:07,079 --> 02:09:10,720
You know, and so electric sounds like it, doesn't it

2169
02:09:10,760 --> 02:09:14,960
still doesn't account for the immaterial absolutes we deal with.

2170
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:18,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, necessarily crackers in the pantry fallacies.

2171
02:09:19,079 --> 02:09:20,960
Speaker 5: Not that it not that it claims to. It's just

2172
02:09:21,039 --> 02:09:26,960
that my interest is where, you know, the material intersects

2173
02:09:27,039 --> 02:09:31,760
with the mind and the the preconditions for what we're

2174
02:09:31,800 --> 02:09:37,000
doing thinking, talking. But uh, it sounds cool, sounds like

2175
02:09:37,039 --> 02:09:38,680
something I could listen to. I mean, I have a

2176
02:09:38,760 --> 02:09:40,920
lot of time, all what was the what is that

2177
02:09:41,079 --> 02:09:44,600
the name of the YouTube, the Electric Universe is that's

2178
02:09:44,760 --> 02:09:45,720
the actual name of it.

2179
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:50,720
Speaker 4: I think that is their channel. I forget the dude's name.

2180
02:09:51,479 --> 02:09:52,119
Speaker 5: I'll look it up.

2181
02:09:52,439 --> 02:09:55,399
Speaker 4: But anyway, I'm also recommended to if you're new to

2182
02:09:55,479 --> 02:09:57,079
these topics and you want to kind of get into

2183
02:09:57,159 --> 02:09:59,960
the mindset, I recommend the Quadrnion book. It's really good.

2184
02:10:00,600 --> 02:10:03,479
It kind of ties a lot of these seemingly disparate

2185
02:10:03,560 --> 02:10:07,079
areas of the relationship between math and numbers in the

2186
02:10:07,239 --> 02:10:11,199
in the world together. So anyway, everybody would be sure

2187
02:10:11,279 --> 02:10:14,479
and go follow Jimball, but his sights and his his

2188
02:10:14,840 --> 02:10:15,319
there's another.

2189
02:10:15,439 --> 02:10:20,720
Speaker 5: Here's another, really insanely I have. I have complex philosophical book,

2190
02:10:21,239 --> 02:10:26,359
Savage Meanings Volume two with the Corunka and that means.

2191
02:10:26,319 --> 02:10:29,000
Speaker 4: Randy Savage means literally every meme is Randy.

2192
02:10:29,119 --> 02:10:32,760
Speaker 5: Right, made by Jimbob dot com.

2193
02:10:34,399 --> 02:10:37,800
Speaker 4: All right, y'all, thank you very much. God bless everybody good.

2194
02:10:37,960 --> 02:10:40,319
Have a good night. And uh, by the way, I

2195
02:10:40,439 --> 02:10:45,399
have for those that are wondering, I'm I'm halfway through

2196
02:10:45,520 --> 02:10:49,000
Klaus Schwab's World Economic Forum books, so that will be

2197
02:10:49,039 --> 02:10:52,239
the next book. Probably do it maybe tomorrow. Uh So

2198
02:10:52,319 --> 02:10:55,720
I've been eager to do the head of Davos's book

2199
02:10:55,840 --> 02:10:58,079
because guess what, he lays it all out. So I'm

2200
02:10:58,079 --> 02:11:00,239
gonna lay it all out for y'all, uh in the

2201
02:11:00,319 --> 02:11:00,840
next dream.

2202
02:11:01,399 --> 02:11:04,840
Speaker 5: Thank you, Jim Bob, thank you, Thanks, thanks everybody.

2203
02:11:04,840 --> 02:11:06,760
Speaker 4: It's a pleasure see yep.