WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:10.119 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:11.320 That is not dead, which can eternal lie and with 3 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:16.480 strange eons, even death may die. The literary work of 4 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.559 Howard Phillips Lovecraft is dark and macob. It casts a 5 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:25.280 long shadow in American literature, influencing such writers as Rod Serling, 6 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:31.760 Stephen King, Bob Howard, Robert Block, and many others. In 7 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:35.200 his stories, he wove a tapestry of mad alien gods 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:40.119 and unspeakable horrors, and of the insignificance of man, and 9 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:44.359 of a mountainous evil that sleeps in the ocean, worshiped 10 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:50.240 by mad cults in dark places, known only as Cthulhu. 11 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.359 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 12 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:10.920 A giant very creature party. 13 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:16.120 In Luckness, a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake 14 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:17.319 in the Highlands of Scotland. 15 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:19.799 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. 16 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:46.000 Monster Tall special literary additional. 17 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.640 Hello. I'm Blake Smith, the producer and co host of 18 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:56.439 Monster Talk. Today, We're going to flex our leathery wings 19 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:00.640 and fly off into some new territory. Traditionally Monster Talc 20 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:03.760 I am my co hosts Ben Radford and doctor Karen 21 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:08.000 Stolesno discuss monsters that are part of folklore and legend. 22 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:12.039 But today we're going to talk about monsters created by 23 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:16.280 writer H. P. Lovecraft. Lovecraft was not well known in 24 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.479 his lifetime, but his influence grew strong, and in recent 25 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:23.840 years he attained a great deal of posthumous fame. His 26 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:28.240 work is cerebral and literate. His erudition found no stricture 27 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.000 in the pulse where he was published, and to approach 28 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.000 his tales without a dictionary would be foolhardy for most. 29 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.479 Yet within those multi sellabular and archaic syllables lay tales 30 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:40.919 of terror as visceral as those of any writer in 31 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:45.240 American literature. Today on Monster Talk, we'll talk with two 32 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:49.520 guests regarding Lovecraft's work. First, the well known Lovecraft scholar 33 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.439 Robert M. Price, we'll talk with us about the writer's 34 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.840 life and his works, and then biologist P. Z. Myers 35 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.080 will talk with us about the biological inspiration for Lovecraft's 36 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:02.439 most well known creator, Cuthulhu. 37 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:04.479 Monstrutal. 38 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:10.599 Tonight, we're interviewing Bob Price, a scholar of religion, a 39 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:14.000 member of the Jesus Seminar, a teacher, a regular host 40 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.080 of the Point of Inquiry podcast, and a noted scholar 41 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.400 of HP. Lovecraft in his works, and so those are 42 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:29.319 kind of what's the word there, They're different, different specialties 43 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.520 that you have there. The Lovecraft stuff seems somewhat at 44 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:35.120 odds with the religious studies maybe, But how did you 45 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:37.280 become interested in the works of HP Lovecraft? 46 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.319 Well, I was, I guess. 47 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:42.319 This was back in about sixty six or sixty seven, 48 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:48.039 and Lancer Books had just, I guess, done their second 49 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.800 printing of the two Lovecraft collections, The Color Out of 50 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.199 Space and the Done Which Horror, and I was in 51 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:01.000 the midst of just bathing in all this great pulp 52 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.599 revival in the paperback books, plus new stuff like Tolkien 53 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:09.039 being offered, and I was reading Robert E. Howard and 54 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:13.199 Doc Savage and Lynn Carter and you name it. And 55 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:15.479 then a friend suggests that I would really like this, 56 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:21.360 and so I did immediately, and I loved the poesque style, 57 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:27.720 and the more the Cthulhu mythology business unfolded in the 58 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.360 writings of Lovecraft and his buddies, the more intriguing it got. 59 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:38.439 And so I was deeply into conservative Christianity at the time, 60 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:42.199 and I was into theology, and eventually I got a 61 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.199 doctorate in theology and another New Testament. Well, the same 62 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.240 interests made this very interesting to me too, because here 63 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:56.519 was Lovecraft fabricating a myth system and doing it in 64 00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:00.920 texts that required interpretation. So this is the perfect sort of. 65 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:01.680 Hobby for me. 66 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:06.560 And I've always been really equally interested in the writing 67 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:13.399 itself and in the mythology of Lovecraft. So they've it's 68 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:16.920 been a seamless thing. Actually with now of course I'm 69 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:20.439 understanding all to be mythology and such, so it's even closer. 70 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.000 But I think I always was in. 71 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:27.560 Touch with the deeply mythological character of all that and 72 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:32.240 another favorite interest of mine superhero comic books. That's raw 73 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:35.480 mythology also, and I love all that stuff. 74 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.240 I come from a very conservative religious background myself, and 75 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:43.680 it's been an interesting transition into a more I guess 76 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:48.560 their plight thing was just to say liberal with did 77 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:52.079 you find that when you were reading Lovecrafts or even 78 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.079 Robbery Howard and that sort of thing, did you feel 79 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:55.879 like you were doing something a bit profane? Did you 80 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:57.959 have to cover the book up if you were at school, 81 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.920 or you know, the covers? Are I a lurid sometimes 82 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:02.160 on those books? 83 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:07.199 Well, I seem to remember feeling occasionally that there might 84 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:10.360 be some incompatibility, but on the whole, I don't believe 85 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:14.639 I did. But there was a time when I just 86 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.120 felt like I needed to drop everything. 87 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:18.279 Else away for a few years. 88 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:21.759 But I was really into witnessing and the old thing 89 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:25.959 and got into intervarsity Christian Fellowship when I was in college, 90 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.160 and I was then instead of out and out fantasy writers, 91 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:32.959 I was reading theologians and such and just love that. 92 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:34.040 I'm glad I did. 93 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:38.600 But once I decided I just didn't see the cogency 94 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:44.160 of Orthodox religion anymore. I decided I would take a 95 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.560 second look at these old things that had always charmed 96 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:49.560 me and got back into them as well. 97 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.480 So, Bob, who was HP Lovecraft? And how did a 98 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:56.439 writer he's so little recognized by modern readers come to 99 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.000 be so well respected by modern writers? 100 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:05.639 Well, he was a proverbial pulp writer. He began just 101 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.439 writing for himself. He had read a lot of eighteenth 102 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:13.319 century literature because he lived in his grandfather's house, read 103 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:17.279 the old books in the library, poetry and prose cover 104 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.040 to cover, top to bottom. And though he never finished 105 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.560 high school, he was self educated and deeply so, and 106 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.439 he wrote for his own amusement, And when somebody persuaded 107 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:33.240 him to submit a couple of stories to the new 108 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:37.319 magazine Weird Tales, he did so with the letter to 109 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.680 the editor saying, now, if you publish these, I don't 110 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:42.920 want a single comma changed. 111 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:44.079 Are you willing to do that? 112 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.800 And so the editor kind of laughed, we're told and 113 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:52.079 said sure, and I guess kept his promise, and then Lovecraft, 114 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:59.000 for years thereafter would curse himself for compromising his esthetic 115 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.279 standards to appeal to the audience of the pulps, which 116 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.600 he graciously referred to as. 117 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:07.160 Yaps and nit wits. 118 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:13.839 So and yet he claimed he didn't want to commercialize, 119 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:17.560 or alternatively, would lament that he couldn't, unlike some of 120 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.319 his friends like August Derleth, who was a chameleon and 121 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.800 could do either one well. He was very, very popular 122 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:28.879 with these young readers in his time. He didn't have 123 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:31.480 to wait for recognition there though he never made much 124 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:33.840 money out of it. He couldn't get a book of 125 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.039 his stories published during his lifetime, though he came close 126 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:41.120 a couple of times, and then there have been of 127 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.559 course since his death, and the preservation of his work 128 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:48.279 in hardcover by a couple of his pals, August Derleth 129 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:52.639 and Donald Wandreie, who found at Arkham House expressly for 130 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:57.200 that purpose. He's attracted more and more of a cult. 131 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:02.440 Though Edmund Wilson was already denouncing the Lovecraft cult in 132 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.159 the forties, I guess it was. But it's just continued 133 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:10.120 to grow. And thanks to the work, I would say, 134 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.200 mainly of St. Joshi, whom I interviewed recently on our 135 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:19.559 Point of Inquiry show, he has become recognized more and 136 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:21.360 more in the literary mainstream. 137 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.279 Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know. 138 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:24.039 I guess it is. 139 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:29.159 But writers, as you say, have always realized this guy's 140 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:33.799 pivotal importance and great gifts and have been influenced by him, 141 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.559 even when they don't want to admit it, and though 142 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:42.200 many do. And now you've got the critical mainstream taking 143 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:46.320 a second look at him, and whole new audiences of 144 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.960 young readers who come to him through role playing games 145 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:55.279 and the like, and they know all about his mythology 146 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:58.919 before they've ever even read one of his stories. And 147 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.320 some people come to him through the ever increasing number 148 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.000 of Lovecraft based movies, and there's lovecrafty and rock, and 149 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:11.159 then there are plush Lovecraft monster toys of cuddly Cuthulhu 150 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:16.000 and so on. So it's this flood of popular interest 151 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.000 in Lovecraft that would have completely astounded him had he 152 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:19.759 lived to see it. 153 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.679 We talked to some about the people who were influenced 154 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:25.480 by him. What about some of his predecessors, such as 155 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:29.080 Edgar Allan Poe. Obviously Poe plays a lot a big 156 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.679 role in Lovecrafty and fiction, but what are some of 157 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:33.720 the other lesser known influences you see in his work? 158 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.639 Well, he loved m R James, the greatest ghost story 159 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:42.360 writer in the English language, and he's somewhat like him, 160 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:48.080 though it's hard to see specific influence other than a 161 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:51.720 few ideas. In particular, I don't think the mood or 162 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:56.840 the style is very close to James. But Count Magnus, 163 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.840 for instance, is a big influence on the call of Cthulhu, 164 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:05.840 as is Lord Dunsane's house in was at a shop 165 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.399 I forget in go By Street, and a lot of 166 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.440 things figured in there. Lovecraft seems to have gotten a 167 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:17.279 lot of his notion of the cosmic outside neess. This 168 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:23.879 mystery impinging upon our own from Algernon Blackwood, and he 169 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.480 said that the probably the greatest supernatural story was The 170 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:28.559 Willows by. 171 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.639 Blackwood, and he also liked the Wind to Go. 172 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:32.879 Well. 173 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:38.440 Then he just thought the world of Arthur Mackin, who 174 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:42.879 is I think possibly the biggest influence on him. Once 175 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:47.200 you've read The White People, the Great God Pan, and 176 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.440 one or two others by Macin, you've almost read The 177 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:55.039 Dunwich Horror already, and so he's a major influence. Especially 178 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.960 the idea of the Old Ones, a surviving banished race 179 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:03.120 from elder to times. He got that, i think from Macin, 180 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.519 though he interpreted it as a pantheon of unknown gods, 181 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:12.480 and picked that up from Lord Dunsane, the Irish baron 182 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:17.480 and fantasist. And in some ways Dunsaney and Poe have 183 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:21.799 always been considered the chief influences on him, because his 184 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:27.080 earliest work was very much in the classical, almost biblical 185 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:31.000 style of Lord Dunsaney, though he came upon it independently, 186 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:34.919 and he had already written The White Ship considered a 187 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.960 Dunsanean tale before he encountered Dunsainte's work, but then went 188 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:43.960 whole hog for a while in that vein but Poe 189 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.559 really claimed him. He preferred to pos my god of fiction. 190 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.960 But I would say Mackin was at least as much 191 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.000 of an influence Edgar Rice Burroughs, oddly enough as a 192 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.440 big influence on him, as well as John Tayne, the 193 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:06.000 science fiction writer. And yet I find that, having gotten 194 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.799 into these other authors, and of course come to appreciate 195 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.919 them greatly, when I go back and read Lovecraft and 196 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:15.879 see what he's done. He did successfully just what you 197 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.039 always hear writers ought to do, to assimilate influences and 198 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.200 make them into something new by kind of artistic alchemy. 199 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:24.279 He a sure did that. 200 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.000 So most of the people what mid late eighteen. 201 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:33.480 Hundreds, Mackin and Blackwood, and I believe m R. James 202 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:39.360 were contemporaries of his. Blackwood read The Rats in the 203 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:41.720 Walls and said that it was good, but a little 204 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.639 too grossly physical in its horror. And I don't know 205 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.480 if Lovecraft ever knew that that he had commented on it. 206 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:53.159 But most of these guys were late nineteenth early twentieth century, 207 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.639 except for Poe obviously, but he saw Dunsaney do a 208 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.080 reading in person. 209 00:13:58.879 --> 00:13:59.360 For instance. 210 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:01.960 He's the only one he met. I believe out of 211 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.440 this bunch, but they were pretty much contemporaries. 212 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.480 Lovecraft, that was a remarkable letter writer and correspondent. Was 213 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.159 it a conscious decision on his part to build that 214 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.440 shared fictional reality that he and other writers could place 215 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:16.000 their works in. 216 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.279 He didn't initiate the idea as far as I know, 217 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.039 But once his friends began to copy him and say, oh, 218 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.360 I like that acronomic and so I've come up with 219 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:27.679 my own book of ibond. 220 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:30.480 Oh. He loved that, as you can tell from his letters. 221 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:32.720 And they say, oh, yeah, by all means, in fact, 222 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.519 I may refer to your thing. And if some like 223 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.440 young Robert Bloch said, here's the story with my grimoire 224 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:44.159 the Mysteries of the Worm, Lovecraft would say, well, that's good, 225 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:46.039 but let's pep it up a little bit with a 226 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:51.279 Latin title as the original about Dave a Arms mysterious, 227 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:54.360 and he would really get involved in He Richard Sea 228 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.080 writes the elt Down Shards. Oh, he loved that, And 229 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.519 so he said about making up this law background story, 230 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.919 little realizing that Seawright was working on his own in 231 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:08.720 another story. He hadn't shown Lovecraft yet, And so we 232 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:11.960 have a two completely different accountings of that. Well, he 233 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.399 loved the game once somebody started playing it, and he 234 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:18.279 liked the fact that it would grow up with all 235 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:23.679 these citations, especially in so far as they were somewhat inconsistent, 236 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.240 because that apes the character of real mythology. It's not 237 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.279 all in these system So he just loved it. There 238 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.279 are some of his fans that say this is a 239 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.320 big mistake, like if I'm not mistaken, Will Murray and 240 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:40.679 David Schultz and others who are great, great Lovecraft scholars 241 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:45.240 think that this made Lovecraft make kind of a joke 242 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.639 of it in some ways, and he probably should never 243 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:52.639 have yielded to it. But the result was this irresistibly 244 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:58.159 fascinating pseudo religion that many Lovecraft fans find this to 245 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:01.320 be the favorite thing of their there's their favorite aspect 246 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:05.120 of his work, the Cuthulhu mythos, so called, and I. 247 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.120 Was going to move on to Cthula and what is 248 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:08.360 there Cauli mythos. 249 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:13.720 Well, it's August der Leff's pretty good attempt at coming 250 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:16.240 up with a title for this. Lovecraft himself called it 251 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.279 a tongue in cheek yog sethothary, as if it were 252 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.679 a religion, and he said, well, Judaism and Christianity are 253 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:29.360 no more valid than my own yog suthothary. And he 254 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:34.559 he set up this uh, this system of myths, whereby 255 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.919 there were ancient races unknown to most people, who of 256 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:44.360 beings that had come to the earth from unimaginable distances 257 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.639 of outer space or other dimensions. But it's the creation 258 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:51.120 or the evolution of humanity, or in some stories, created 259 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.919 human beings as a mistake or a joke, because he 260 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:58.799 has someone saying at the Mountains of Madness and it 261 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:03.440 was all science fiction basically. But he has the poor, hapless, 262 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.880 ignorant humans in in certain. 263 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.759 Esoteric, degraded cults. 264 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:15.160 Doing the bidding of these ancient beings now shut away 265 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.839 in caverns and so on, communicating by dreams. And these 266 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:24.920 people are the dregs of society, are trying to do 267 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:29.400 what they can to release their masters, to pillage the 268 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.400 earth and so forth, or to drag it off into 269 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.319 a different dimension, as it says in the Dunwich Horror, 270 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.640 and so that they're these evil but really just sort 271 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.839 of stupid and venial humans trying to end the world 272 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.480 as we know it and restore the rule of the 273 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.200 beings who are indifferent to humanity. And and the big 274 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.839 horror of this is not just while there's King Kong 275 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:57.200 throwing the subway cars around and swatting the biplanes off, 276 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.400 the empire state building physical destruction. You almost don't see 277 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:04.200 that happen in his stories. One or two cases you do. 278 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.759 But the shocking humbling of the sense of human self importance. 279 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:16.480 What you mean, there were millions of years ago intelligent 280 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:23.440 cephala pods and ceqcumbers with wings who are vastly superior 281 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:29.200 to our intelligence. Now we're the beasts, not them. And 282 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:34.440 that's the really terrible, humbling insight that he communicates. Though 283 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.960 this seems to be allegorical for Lovecraft's worldview. Of course 284 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.519 he didn't believe there were monsters and such, but he said, 285 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.680 the very indifference of the universe, this is the humbling 286 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.880 and shocking truth that science tells us that people don't 287 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.680 want to hear, so they retreat into religion and superstition. 288 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.119 So it was a kind of a philosophy that he 289 00:18:55.160 --> 00:19:00.000 really did believe using the image the vehicle of science. 290 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:05.799 It's fiction and the a kind of a hoax version 291 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:09.720 of religion, as priest Craft and that's where the mythos 292 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:13.279 comes in. It's gods and scriptures. But even in his 293 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.880 own stories, it's only the duped fools who think so. 294 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:20.680 So the really interesting combination of all these insights. 295 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.960 Yeah, it seemed to me that the mythos itself embodied 296 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:30.000 to kind of cosmic neilism. Yeah, yeah, does it's also 297 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.279 informed by the science that was coming out at the time. 298 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.880 Am I right? And remembering was he an amateur astronomer? 299 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.200 Yeah, when he was a little kid, he was in 300 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.319 the observatory and looking out at the heavens and even 301 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:47.640 a hectographed i think a little Providence Journal of Astronomy. 302 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:47.559 And sold it. 303 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:51.640 The kid was a phenomenon and it just was absorbed 304 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:54.240 in the vastness of the cosmos, and I'm sure that 305 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:57.960 was a big influence on his whole outlook. 306 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.319 Cathilla, mythos reminds me of something else. Do you see 307 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:04.400 any parallels between Lovecraft and for example, l Ron Hubbard 308 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.440 with cults and alien gods and intelligences. 309 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:13.880 Well, from the little I know about the scientology mythology, 310 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:18.680 it's more it comes out of more properly called pulp 311 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:23.839 science fiction, with the space tyrant and all that stuff Lovecraft. 312 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:27.160 That would be more like the aspect of Burrows that 313 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:31.200 Lovecraft didn't care for. Scientology sounds like it's based on 314 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:35.039 space opera, much like the Nation of Islam, with the 315 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:39.359 mother plane ship up in the sky and the evil 316 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:44.160 doctor yak Kube mutating specimens until he got to the 317 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.440 Blue Eyed White Devils, just sort of Saturday afternoon matinee stuff. 318 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:56.000 And as I understand it, Hubbard took a plausible technique 319 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:02.240 of consciousness raising the dyetics thing, and then added this 320 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:07.039 mythology to it to make it into scientology. And Lovecraft 321 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.880 would never have taught a doctrine like that, or a 322 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.079 method or anything. He thought people were generally all right 323 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.799 as they were, and religion had a kind of an 324 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.160 esthetic value into some degree of social control value. But 325 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:24.640 he met Hubbard once, by the way, but as far 326 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:27.039 as I know, his only comment was on his brilliant 327 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:31.000 red hair. But I don't see a whole lot because 328 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:35.519 I think it's Lovecraft did in his vision. His resulting 329 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:37.079 mythology wasn't as trite. 330 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:42.720 And I suppose also the Hubbard. Unlike Hubbard, Lovecraft didn't 331 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:44.599 release set people to take it seriously. 332 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.799 Yeah, he was highly abused. When they did, he. 333 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.599 Seemed as readers were smart enough to know this is 334 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:51.319 just fiction. 335 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.720 But sometimes they weren't. 336 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.920 In fact, a collaborator of his, William Lumley, no relation 337 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:01.359 to the great Brian Lumley today, he was in pall 338 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.599 of Lovecraft. He collaborate with him. Sometimes he would sort 339 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:07.880 of laughingly say in letters to other people, well, old 340 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:12.559 Bill maintains that Smith and Howard Long and I are 341 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:17.599 really unwitting mouthpieces for elder entities, and that Cthulhu et 342 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:18.839 cept for really exist. 343 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:20.960 And so it was already starting. 344 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:21.160 Then. 345 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:23.440 People would write to him and say where can I 346 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:25.920 get a copy of an Acronomicon, And he would write 347 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:27.359 in back say, I hate to tell you. 348 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:29.200 This, but I made it up. There's no such thing. 349 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:34.240 So it began immediately that people thought it must be real, 350 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.920 and he had to try to disabuse them. 351 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.599 I actually saw, I believe, in the seventies there was 352 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:44.000 a black covered book that was called an acronomic on. 353 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:46.960 I think it was a hoax of some sort. The 354 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.799 other few of those, yeah, And I saw that before 355 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.079 I ever read Lovecraft. And so when I first read Lovecraft, 356 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.599 I thought that's all I've heard of this book before 357 00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:58.000 I got it a lot of order. 358 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:00.799 So was it a big book looked kind of like 359 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:02.200 a high school yearbook? 360 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.640 No, this was actually the paperback and it was it 361 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.200 was it was sort of the occult section of the bookstore. 362 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.319 This was you know, this would have been in the 363 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.720 probably the late seventies, and I really wasn't supposed to 364 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.680 be in that section because they had the Satanic Bible 365 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:23.079 and they had so over here with the cult stuff. 366 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.480 Was a book called the Necronomicon, and it claimed to 367 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.720 be you know, the writings of Abdullahlav read uh. But 368 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:32.920 later on I had heard that that was actually a 369 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:35.319 literary hoax of a sort. I mean, obviously it wasn't 370 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.160 the real Necronomicon because, as you say, Lovecraft made it up. 371 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:39.640 So I'm not going I'll look into that. See if 372 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.960 I find the history of that book, that particular one. 373 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:47.000 It's probably Simon's Necronomicon. This guy claimed to be a 374 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.680 defrocked Eastern monk or something and called himself Simon and 375 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.759 what he did. Basically it was published by the Schlanga 376 00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:59.599 Croft Barns. I think it was as a kind of 377 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:01.920 a thing looked like a big high school yearbook, and 378 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:06.519 then eventually Avon, who published the Satanic Bible, published a 379 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.960 paperback edition of this that you still see and I'm 380 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.279 pretty sure that's the one. And in it he claims 381 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:17.000 this is the real necronomicon, but it is real ancient text, 382 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:22.079 but it's part of some ancient Sumerian chants with a 383 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:27.440 few mythos names thrown in, and it's it is a 384 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.400 hoax though. And I one afternoon years ago, Lynn Carter, 385 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.119 s t Joshi and I went to the Magical Child, 386 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:41.519 a cult bookstore in the village, and Simon was lecturing 387 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.640 in the back room and these kids were They're saying, 388 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.559 can you use an acronomicon with your scrying crystal and 389 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.920 see the old ones? And this guy was up there saying, well, 390 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:54.200 it might work, but I don't know if I'd try it, 391 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:58.519 And we were just fuming, and it was obvious this 392 00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:01.839 guy was just pulling show the Gourad's wool over their 393 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:04.920 eyes and having a good time about it. 394 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.640 But oh man, did you say the publisher called Shlung 395 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:09.480 a craft barn. 396 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.119 Yeah, maybe that's the most horrifying part of it. 397 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.200 I'm sorry, I know I did the first I immediately 398 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.079 thought and they make great porn as well. 399 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.680 Yeah they should have. Yeah, they may also have, all 400 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:21.000 I know. 401 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.240