WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.160 Welcome to the nonprofits. Our second segment this week takes 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.759 us to Florida again. In Florida's District thirty eight state 3 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:11.039 House race, Democrats Sarah Henry is challenging Republican incumbent David 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.519 Smith in a rematch that's drawing attention for Smith's negative 5 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.480 campaign tactics. Henry, a former communications associate for the American 6 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:22.920 Humanist Association, has previously defended church state separation on issues 7 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.199 like Christian symbols in public land and state sponsored prayer 8 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:30.839 in schools. Smith's campaign attacks Henry by misrepresenting these stances, 9 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.039 portraying her as anti Christian and labeling her as a 10 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:38.960 radical atheist who hates Christians. In the real world, Henry's 11 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:43.439 platform centers on affordable housing, reproductive rights, public education, gun safety, 12 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:47.399 and environmental protections. Smith's ads have raised eyebrows for focusing 13 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:51.280 on Henry's beliefs rather than her policies, prompting criticism about 14 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:55.280 the ethics of intentionally using religious bias in political attacks. 15 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:58.759 Henry continues to counter these claims by emphasizing her ideas, 16 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:01.920 which appeal to a broad based of Floridians regardless of 17 00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:05.319 religious background. The story is from The Friendly Atheist by 18 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:08.599 him and Metta on October sixteenth, twenty twenty four. And 19 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:11.040 so I want to take this first to Kelly. Kelly 20 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:14.359 Smith claims that Henry's beliefs or lack thereof, and her 21 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:19.840 association with the American Humanis Humanist Association disqualifies her from office. 22 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:23.120 Do his claims hold water? He says, knowing exactly what 23 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:23.920 Kelly's going to say. 24 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.640 You know what, First off, let's let's define humanism, right, 25 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:30.719 And I've got it written down here because I'm dumb 26 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:33.640 and I wouldn't have remembered it. Humanist beliefs strust the 27 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:38.560 potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, 28 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:44.120 and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. Holy shit, Wow, 29 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:49.359 what a crazy radical idea that is the radically Would 30 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:50.959 you want that in our politics? 31 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:52.159 Holy correct? 32 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:54.239 We got to keep that out of here. I want 33 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.239 to say, this guy has like the mentality of an NPC, 34 00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:59.719 but it's more like he has the mentality of a 35 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.079 whole in the ground and not a frustrating dog one. 36 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:05.680 Even Yeah, I just don't get it. I why, like 37 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.759 I said, why are those values that would not fit 38 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:10.360 right into politics? 39 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:10.919 Exactly. 40 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:12.159 I have no idea why. 41 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.039 Yeah, so Steven, let's take it. Let's take it over 42 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.319 to you. Then, Mudslinging has been a common political tactic 43 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.000 as long as there's been politics, right, So what do 44 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.280 you affect do you think this tactic will have in 45 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:24.800 this case? 46 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.639 And what could we do to mitigate those effects? 47 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:28.159 Like? 48 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:32.120 It just it's so it's so gross. I don't know, 49 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:34.400 like maybe maybe I just have my head in the stand, 50 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.879 but I just I personally don't get exposed to this 51 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:44.840 type of vitol vitriol in political advertising in anywhere. I 52 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:48.120 don't know if that's just because Canadians are less prone 53 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:51.520 to such, but this just seems like the perfect way 54 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.680 to disenfranchise people from the whole process because nobody wants 55 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:59.159 that kind of toxic nobody, no healthy person wants that 56 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:03.840 kind of talxity in their sphere, within their identity, within 57 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:07.479 their political identity. Right, So you know, it means that 58 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:11.120 we're going to, you know, keep intelligent people away, We're 59 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.520 going to keep stupid people in rage, and I'm going 60 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.800 to keep empowered people in charge. That's all that this 61 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:20.199 kind of garbage accomplishes, really and just makes the whole 62 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.879 discourse the whole dialogue watered down from what exactly should 63 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:27.800 be focused on them. It should be looking at public policy. 64 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.719 Now it's just flinging crap about what this person is 65 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.280 or isn't and trying to, you know, gin up some 66 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:37.240 fear about what it could possibly mean, using buzzwords that 67 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:38.680 people think that they understand. 68 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:39.960 I think you do about it. 69 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.199 I don't know, right, like building these these evil straw 70 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.400 man stereotype atheists that are out to get all Christians 71 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.159 that you know the guy's talking about. So, yeah, exactly, 72 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.479 I totally agree with what Stephen just said. 73 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:54.159 Well, it seems like that's kind of the low hanging 74 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:57.800 psychological fruit, right. I mean, people react like there's knee 75 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:00.719 jerk reaction if you say certain words, and so hey, 76 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.159 I'll just say those words and and uh, you know 77 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:08.039 that'll make everything happen, right, Uh, let's over to to sorry, 78 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:10.039 go ahead say that again, Stephen, Just. 79 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.000 That there are people whose brains are wired to respond 80 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.560 that way. If you are motivated by fear, and then 81 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.160 hope that is triggered in my brain. Okay, I gotta 82 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:21.319 I got to do something now, And like that's that's 83 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:23.360 a part of our society as well, we can't just 84 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.639 say well, sorry, no, stupid people allowed to get stupid 85 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:31.240 people don't get to vote. But what it's complex, complex. 86 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:32.639 Yeah, I want to I want to jump to Damien 87 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:35.360 real quick here. Damien, we've been kind of hinting that 88 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.839 maybe this type of thing should be restricted in some way, 89 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:40.800 although you know, once you get down to the nuts 90 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:43.600 and bolts, it might be a little tricky. Could you 91 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.199 add anything about mud slinging as a tactic in general, 92 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.120 and about harm from such a tactic and how could 93 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:49.839 it be mitigated? 94 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:54.160 Mud Slinging is a tactic is as old as politics itself. 95 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:59.480 Is the uh yeah is mob's aviation And look, American 96 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:04.120 politics will do American politics things. And in a deep 97 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:08.000 red state like Florida, it's almost a feature, not a bug, 98 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.279 that someone will use the battleground of religion to push 99 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.959 why they should be voted in and not the other person. 100 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:22.000 In terms of mudslinging, unfortunately, unless you want to literally 101 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:26.560 control what everybody says, you know, sentence by sentence, word 102 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.519 by word, then yeah, I don't think you are ever 103 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:32.639 going to stop a mudsling But I think the best 104 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:37.439 way to stop mudslinging is by a stop rewarding it, 105 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:42.399 and to educate the public to be more literate with 106 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:46.720 how politics works, because for the vast majority of people, 107 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:51.480 they don't understand exactly how politics works, the nature of parliament, 108 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:55.480 the voting system, things like that. Whereas for us who 109 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.839 are a bit more politically is stue to understand these 110 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.399 things and actually who actually have an active interest, Yeah, 111 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:03.720 we see this and go oh, he's just you know, 112 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:06.600 he's just throwing mud to the wall and seeing what sticks. 113 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:10.399 Whereas to the average person who is you know, only 114 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.879 slightly politically engaged, you know that they will see, you 115 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:16.279 know that the flyer in the letterbox and go oh, 116 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:20.439 this person says, you know, children are doing witchcraft or 117 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.439 stuff like that. So I think that the way we 118 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:27.040 stop mudslinging is one to stop rewarding it and to 119 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.160 teach people to be more engaged in civil politics. 120 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:32.720 So knowledge is power kind of a thing. 121 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.399 Yeah indeed. And so look, look, if you see the 122 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:39.759 mud slinging that David Smith and his ilk are doing 123 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.600 and you like what he says, okay, you have the 124 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.600 freedom to vote for him because you like his policies, right, 125 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:49.680 But I think the other way to stop it is 126 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:54.600 to enact an authoritarian regime that literally dictates what you 127 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.360 can and can't say, like you have to have your 128 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:01.160 messages approved by some higher power, in which case it 129 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.920 becomes that's almost you know, I wouldn't want to say 130 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:05.920 fascists as a as a trophe would, but you know, 131 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.720 when when the government controls what you can and can't say, 132 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.360 I think that enters a very dangerous territory. 133 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:13.279 Yeah, yeah, definitely I would agree with that. 134 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:17.279 That's it's it's definitely something that it's easier said than done. 135 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:19.079 If we say we want this to be restricted or 136 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:22.319 regulated some way, that's one thing, but then you know, 137 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.439 when the rubber meets the road, it's a different thing. 138 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.839 And so it might be it would be hard to 139 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:32.399 do that without stamping on other rights that we would 140 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:37.000 value and and hold as something worthy. Kelly, I want 141 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:39.000 to go over to you for a second. Steven mentioned 142 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.519 that just some people just think that way, right, and 143 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:44.560 so it's a it's a question of human psychology here, 144 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.360 and so would you would you say that people that 145 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.199 use these types of smear tact we know that they work. 146 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:54.839 We know that these types of negative ads are effective 147 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.240 in drawing voters, and so do you think that they're 148 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.360 just hitting low the belt or do you think that 149 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:06.959 they're being very savvy politicians or savvy uh candidates here 150 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.839 in utilizing I was going to say manipulating, but you 151 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:12.759 could you could take this interpret this. 152 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.000 I interpret this in two different ways. 153 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:17.959 Either you could view it as manipulating or you could 154 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:22.319 view it as interpreting or even catering to the human psyche. 155 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:24.920 What's your what's your take on that is this? Is 156 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:27.439 this just bad politics or is it good psychology? 157 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:30.319 It's you know, it's both. Actually, if you think about it, 158 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.279 it's good politics and good psychology, right because it's working, 159 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.159 so it's good politics. It's a it's a shit backing 160 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.000 up shitty ideals, but it's working, so for for politics, 161 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.639 it's good. It's so funny that you would just ask 162 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.600 me this too, because Steven had mentioned that some people 163 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:48.559 are kind of wired that way. And I was just 164 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:53.639 having a conversation this morning about a sociologist from Canada, Manitoba, 165 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.879 actually Bob Altmeyer, and he did a lot of studies 166 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.879 and authoritarian mindsets and his work was fascinating, you know, 167 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.480 and I couldn't remember if he was from Manitoba or 168 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:05.519 Alberta to be honest with you, so he would and 169 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.039 look him up, and sadly I found out he passed 170 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.159 away last February. But I mean, he did some really, 171 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:14.879 really amazing work on authoritarian mindsets and he found that 172 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.240 there were actually two groups of people. And that's why 173 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.440 I said, you can go ahead and say exploit, because 174 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:22.080 that's what one of the groups of people do. They're 175 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.840 the authorities, and they exploit the people who need to 176 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.639 have an authority figure over them. They really cannot function 177 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:33.399 in a society without being told what to do, and 178 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.200 there are people who will come along and exploit that. 179 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:41.120 And that's why people like this guy right here is 180 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:45.120 so popular with his voters is because he's got a 181 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.919 whole bunch of people who have an authoritarian mindset that 182 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:51.360 need to be told what to do, and he's coming 183 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:54.159 along being the big bully and it's working. It's great 184 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:55.759 politics and it's great psychology. 185 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:59.279 Fair enough, fair enough, Steven, I want to We've been 186 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:03.120 talking about the handed it and about the victim candidate 187 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:06.440 as well, But what's the media's responsibility in this. 188 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:09.480 The media is providing the platform, is uh. 189 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:14.039 The media is the is the tool that's being used 190 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:18.200 to enact these types of ads and attacks and so forth. 191 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.159 What's their responsibility and in uh, in making sure information 192 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.240 is presented accurately and in context and so forth. 193 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:28.759 Yeah, Like it's it's uh, it's it's a bit of 194 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.759 a hot potato, right. I know. One ruling that recently 195 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.759 past here in Canada that hasn't been popular is now 196 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.159 a social media sites such as Facebook, you are not 197 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.919 allowed to post links to news articles in and disseminate 198 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.879 those through your Facebook feed. And that's you know, met 199 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.679 with you know, reactions from both sides saying, well why 200 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.120 why why is it being censored this way? But at 201 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:59.120 the same time, it's like it's it's at least one 202 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.000 way that social media is being held accountable for for 203 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.399 the potential for spreading misinformation? Uh? 204 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:06.960 Yeah? 205 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.919 Should should media companies be held responsible for the messaging 206 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.960 that they are putting out there? Like if they're a megaphone, 207 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.080 do you sue the megaphone company for the messages that 208 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:21.720 are being blasted out through that megaphone? I don't. I 209 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:24.120 don't think it's going to be that simple, especially knowing 210 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.200 that they media companies are run by humans, and they 211 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.639 are run by humans who want to be rich. Like, 212 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.000 no matter which way you slice it, there's going to 213 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.519 be people who can benefit and people who can be 214 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:40.759 you know, negatively impacted by these kinds of actions. And 215 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.039 so it's it's going to come down to money. Media, 216 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.440 isn't it's a free enterprise. It's no, it's not the 217 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:47.480 easy solution. 218 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:50.200 Right right, Damien, I want you to to build on 219 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.840 what Stephen was just saying. So Stephen was suggesting that 220 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:56.120 you know, that's that's that's just the way it is. 221 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.600 You know that that's you know, we're just gonna it's 222 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.240 gonna it's a difficult it's a hot potato, he said. 223 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.440 And so we need to be careful when it comes 224 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:07.000 to regulating or restricting free press, which is part of 225 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.679 our First Amendment along with the freedom of religion. And so, 226 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.240 but do you think that we as a as a community, 227 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:18.600 as as consumers should expect media to maybe police themselves 228 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:23.080 rather than being you know, having restrictions infringed from without 229 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:23.960 from the government. 230 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:24.679 Would that be? 231 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:24.759 So? 232 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:28.120 Could that there was a day when when news organizations 233 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:34.159 would strive to have integrity and have a solid reputation 234 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.919 for for bringing the truth and for and for helping 235 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.120 people and for educating the public. Do you think that 236 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.000 those days are lost or do you think that they 237 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.360 would be welcomed back, if, if, if, even if there 238 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:52.240 was somebody trying it, which there probably is, but obviously 239 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.399 they're not very well known or not not one of 240 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:57.879 the biggies, right, and so do you think that maybe 241 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:01.080 some self regulation is an expect that's realistic? 242 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.600 Well, look in the establishment media already, like with TV, 243 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.799 radio and print, there are already codes of conduct that 244 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.480 the that the media companies have to abide by as well. 245 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:17.759 So and given the fact that social media sites are 246 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:22.480 essentially another form of media, I don't see the problem 247 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:26.519 too much of a problem with with them having to 248 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.639 add disia policies. I think one of the biggest problems though, 249 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:34.200 is is when you have jurisdictions that make laws on 250 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:39.000 what a multinational, multinational social media site can and can't do. 251 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:41.720 So Stephen was saying that in Canada, you know, there's 252 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.639 certain laws that Facebook have to apply by there. We 253 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.039 are also talking about the same thing down here in 254 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.360 Australia as well, not just on a federal level, but 255 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.840 on a state level as well. So I think one 256 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:55.279 of the biggest challenges you have is that how do 257 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.159 you how does a government stop a person in the 258 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:04.799 dung hole Wisconsin from you know, violating you know, from 259 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:10.840 violating a policy that's enacted by a Canadian government about 260 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.799 a company that's based in California. You know, you have 261 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.120 all these different or all these different things. So I 262 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:19.440 think we have to I don't think the solution is 263 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.279 shutting down voices. I think the better solution is a 264 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.440 plurality of voices as well, so people have the ability 265 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:29.440 to weigh up. You know, what is a source saying 266 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.120 where are they getting the information from? You know, is 267 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:37.200 there a financial benefit to this person posting this political story? 268 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:39.639 Is there a political bias? You know, things like that. 269 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.360 I think the better education is not to restrict speech, 270 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.240 but to open it up. But teach people how to 271 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.039 be how to judge nw ones, how to discern, how 272 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:53.159 to see where, how to balance sources, how teaching people 273 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:55.519 how to be critical is how I think that we 274 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:56.279 should go about it. 275 00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:58.320 Sorry, go ahead, Kelley. 276 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.039 I'd like to say. The problem they see with that, 277 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.440 that is the George Caylin dilemma. Right, that have common senses, 278 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.159 the average intelligence isn't very smart and half the people 279 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:08.399 are dumber than that, So you're never going to be 280 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:10.879 able to teach half the people that how to find 281 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.159 how to tell if it's a good source. Plus, we're 282 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:15.279 going to have this certain population and we were just 283 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:19.519 talking about that, Robert Oldmeyers studied that aren't even going 284 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:21.240 to bother the Look, they're just going to take the 285 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:24.440 authority figure's word for it and say, yeah, he's right, 286 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:26.240 because you know, he told me he was and he's 287 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:26.559 you know. 288 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.279 Yeah, yeah, But I suppose a lot you're always going 289 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.720 to have that problem in society. Like even if you 290 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:36.000 were in a society like let's say Harvard or you know, 291 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:38.879 Oxford or you know, somewhere where there's like a world 292 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:44.360 class educational institution, and even inside those educational institutions you 293 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:48.440 have people with downright crazy silly ideas as well. 294 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:54.120 So right, right, yeah, Well, I'm just curious, like when 295 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.960 I hear plurality, maybe there needs to be you know, 296 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.759 the right wing fear mongering. Maybe there needs to be 297 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.919 you know, the essal you know, like let's look at 298 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.360 this critical and maybe there needs be like left wing 299 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:11.519 fear mongering that you know that those people as well. Yeah, maybe, right, 300 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.240 I'm not. It doesn't seem to me that it's as 301 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:15.960 as thick, as heavy, as hard. 302 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.720 No it's not. It's not anywhere near as popular, but 303 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:20.000 it's definitely out there. 304 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.840 And that's the idea of the Overton window, right that 305 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:27.480 you know, when you have two positions that you know, 306 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:31.200 you'll kind you want to uh, you'll end up in 307 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.159 the middle somewhere, ye, Right. If we have political figures 308 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.799 who are like, hey, if I stretch this far enough, 309 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.919 that means that the middle will move in accordance. And 310 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.720 so maybe is the response then to like, okay, let's 311 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.279 get really extreme and talk about these uh, you know extreme, 312 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.879 these blood cult extremists who want to you know, enforce 313 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.080 their religion. Well, will that have the opposite effect? Will 314 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:54.399 that garner them more boats? 315 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.600 I don't know, right right, Yeah, I mean I think 316 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.440 that we I can. I can hear what you're saying, 317 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.599 and I agree we definitely need to uh present the 318 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:09.599 critical mind, the the the thoughtful mind, the reasonable mind. 319 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.079 As a math teacher, I can say that I know 320 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.240 full well that human nature is to be lazy thinkers. 321 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:17.720 I say that all the time. Don't be a lazy thinker. 322 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.519 Think hard thing, you know, think difficult things, and so 323 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.920 Steven think harder and and so we want to we 324 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.640 want to make sure that we want to encourage people 325 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.799 to not shy away from from the difficult tasks of Well, 326 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.599 I suppose that's wasn't that JFK Right. We're not doing 327 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.119 this because it's easy. We're doing it because it's difficult. 328 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:37.880 And and that's kind of the same thing too. If 329 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.440 we want to, uh, if we want to have if 330 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.319 we want to have that integrity, if as a nation, 331 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:45.200 not just as a as a media outlet, but if 332 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.079 we want to have that integrity and that uh, that respect, 333 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.960 we need to show that we're willing to put in 334 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.000 the time and and to put and to make the 335 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.359 effort to to understand the situation we're in. 336 00:17:57.640 --> 00:17:59.880 We have this, uh, at least for now. 337 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.799 We have this democratic system in the United States where 338 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:05.839 people get to express their votes and to participate in 339 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:06.480 the government. 340 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.480 And so I think, you. 341 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.480 Know, at least part of the reasoning behind things like 342 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:14.440 public education and that kind of thing is we want 343 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:19.400 an educated population. And so it's easy to see that 344 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.200 we all want to kind of push things in this 345 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.279 direction where people aren't afraid to do the to do 346 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:29.160 the thinking to consider different positions in different directions. Is 347 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.319 that something that's possible. Maybe that can be kind of 348 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.480 our closing question here. We'll start with Kelly first, Do 349 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:38.440 you think that Do you think we're just wasting our 350 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:42.160 time trying to encourage people to think critically and to 351 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:43.000 be to. 352 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:44.599 Utilize reason and that kind of thing. 353 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:46.319 Do you think we're wasting our time and that people 354 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:49.279 are just going to default to the easiest route no 355 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:50.000 matter what. 356 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.279 I had that That to me is a two part question, right, 357 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.200 yes and no. I think again, I think there's a 358 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.240 certain population that we could talk to until we're blue 359 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:01.440 in the face and are never going to freaking get 360 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:04.279 it right. But I think there is also a growing 361 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.799 population of people that are that can here and they 362 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.000 are listening, and they are educating themselves. And if you 363 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.279 don't know how to educate yourself, if you've never done 364 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:15.720 it before, great way to start is pick up a hobby, 365 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.839 start to start educating yourself about something that you like 366 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.359 a lot, and that'll teach you how to educate yourself, 367 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:22.960 and then you can start getting into the other some 368 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:24.920 of the other things that you should be learning about. 369 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.440 So damn straight and coming from a self made scientist too, Kelly, 370 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.440 that's that's that's a well taken that's a point well 371 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:33.680 taken there. I want to jump over to Steven. Do 372 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.720 you think Kelly's on point there? Do you think this 373 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.799 is a something that can be done as somebody who 374 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.160 spends a lot of time trying to communicate with people, 375 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.720 trying to present ideas in such a way that so 376 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.279 that others can understand them clearly? Do you think we're 377 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:50.519 wasting our time with this? Do you think people are 378 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.799 gonna Like earlier tonight Damien said Americans are going to 379 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.279 American or I can't remember exactly how you said it, 380 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.400 but are we kind of stuck in this rutter? 381 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.160 Or can we? Is this a winnable fight here? 382 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:08.559 Like, I don't. I don't think it's necessarily the end result, 383 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.839 the outcome that matters most. It's the journey, right, Like, 384 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.359 if somebody needs to be doing this in order for 385 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:17.359 humans to survive for as thrive for as long as possible, 386 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.640 we need to be doing that hard work. So yeah, 387 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.039 like even if we don't, if even if it isn't 388 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:26.960 a battle to be won, it's what we accomplish along 389 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.079 the way that that matters. So hitting yeah, like, yeah, 390 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.599 even if we don't get every person thinking the way 391 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.640 that they should be, if we don't do the work 392 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.680 that we're supposed to, then what chance is there that 393 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.240 we're going to get anybody to do something. It's not 394 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.480 the outcome that matters, but it's out what we're doing 395 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:44.079 along the way. 396 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.279 All right, Damien, I'll give you the last word. You've 397 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.480 heard what Kelly and Stephen have to say about that. 398 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.960 What what are your thoughts? Is this a is this 399 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.680 a worthy battle? Or is this a lost battle? 400 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:54.079 Already? 401 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:58.440