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<v Speaker 1>The question is was he the shooter?

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<v Speaker 2>It seems like we're being spoon fed and narrative. I

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<v Speaker 2>now believe there is a federal level of corruption and

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<v Speaker 2>conspiracy involved in this murder.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, and the ten months since Charlie Kirk's death, some

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<v Speaker 3>of the loudest voices on the right have worked over

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<v Speaker 3>time to discount the official narrative of his killing, and

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<v Speaker 3>millions have followed them down the rabbit hole.

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<v Speaker 1>In a way, the.

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<v Speaker 3>Conspiracy theories around Kirk's death were inevitable. Ms now is

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<v Speaker 3>Brandy's Drosny reports that the MAGA media universe Kirk helped

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<v Speaker 3>build was doing exactly what it was designed to do,

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<v Speaker 3>but that relentless suspicion and so called fact finding is

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<v Speaker 3>now tearing MAGA apart, and Brandy tracks the scent in

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<v Speaker 3>a new documentary series joining us Now. Ms NOW Senior

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<v Speaker 3>Enterprise reporter Brandy's de Drosny senior report at the Bullwork

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<v Speaker 3>Will Summer.

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<v Speaker 1>Rick Wilson is back with us, Brandy.

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<v Speaker 3>I remember months ago talking to you about kind of

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<v Speaker 3>this concept.

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<v Speaker 1>You're running to a meeting about it.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I'm very happy to say that it is out.

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<v Speaker 3>In congratulations to you, and the team for getting this out.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the things that's so interesting, this continues to

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<v Speaker 3>be interesting to me, is that conspiracy theories are not new.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>We all have family members, especially now who believes I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not going to name any of y'all, but you're probably

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<v Speaker 3>watching some online conspiracy theories and it's been happening since

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<v Speaker 3>YFK and he was assassinated into now and I want

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<v Speaker 3>to play some more sound about conspiracies and attention from

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<v Speaker 3>the doc listen to this.

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<v Speaker 2>Stephen Pricesca studies how this kind of thing happens, how

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<v Speaker 2>people online collaborate to interpret events and create narratives to

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<v Speaker 2>explain them. People in academia call it participatory misinformation or

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<v Speaker 2>collective sense making.

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<v Speaker 4>When we are trying to understand anything that we don't

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<v Speaker 4>understand initially, it's we're uncertain, something's ambiguous, something's new or novel,

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<v Speaker 4>and so we don't understand these things in isolation.

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<v Speaker 1>There's deflective sense making process.

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<v Speaker 4>It does involve these crowds of peace coming together trying

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<v Speaker 4>to understand something, but in practice, some there are some

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<v Speaker 4>people just have more influence within a particular community. There

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<v Speaker 4>are people who's almost entire livelihoods are based off of

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<v Speaker 4>navigating this attention economy.

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<v Speaker 2>In other words, there's a hierarchy, and in this case,

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<v Speaker 2>one person sits.

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<v Speaker 5>At the top.

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<v Speaker 3>I have spent a lot of time as less time

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<v Speaker 3>than you watching Candae almost as this has changed and

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<v Speaker 3>how she's talked about it. When you think about where

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<v Speaker 3>the right is on the disbelief in institutions, this felt inevitable.

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<v Speaker 3>But most importantly this is stranger, probably because of social media.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean listen, conspiracy theories have been around or

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<v Speaker 2>as long as people have been around, right, we want

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<v Speaker 2>to explain the way things work, and we want to

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<v Speaker 2>neet explanation for that. Before in the before times, you

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<v Speaker 2>had a handful of people whose job was to create

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<v Speaker 2>these conspiracy theories in a handful of ways, radio righting

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<v Speaker 2>pamphlets to spread those conspiracy theories. We are in a

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<v Speaker 2>moment where there's just a huge, huge market for it.

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<v Speaker 2>There are a lot of conspiracy theorists. Alex Jones said

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<v Speaker 2>the other day there are a million Alex Jones is

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<v Speaker 2>now and he was incredibly right. You know, there are

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<v Speaker 2>lots of people who make a living online spreading conspiracy

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<v Speaker 2>theories and coming up with him Candice Owens again sits

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<v Speaker 2>at the top of those right now. But not only

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<v Speaker 2>you know, has changed the just the number of people

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<v Speaker 2>who peddle in these conspiracy theories, but the way that

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<v Speaker 2>they are spread has just expanded with social media. So

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<v Speaker 2>even right now, and you know, you mentioned MAGA, but

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<v Speaker 2>it really really is starting to be less and less

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<v Speaker 2>just a maga thing, just a right wing thing. It

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<v Speaker 2>really is spreading to every political ideology. Just I think

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<v Speaker 2>COVID and the distrust spread by Donald Trump and the

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<v Speaker 2>like in our and our systems has has really just

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<v Speaker 2>just disrupted trust in this way. That's it's it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of it's hard to even see how we come back

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<v Speaker 2>from that now.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's a problem, Brandy. So much of this feels

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<v Speaker 1>like the psychology right that.

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<v Speaker 3>Human beings are typically it seems nowadays more likely to

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<v Speaker 3>bleed a deep, dark, winding conspiracy theory than kind of

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<v Speaker 3>the knowing, normal, boring explanation for some of these sometimes

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<v Speaker 3>unexplainable things that happen in this country. And as you

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<v Speaker 3>as someone who steeped deep into this world, what do

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<v Speaker 3>you take what's your biggest takeaway.

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<v Speaker 1>From the documentary that you made? Part one I think, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that the biggest takeaway is just how you

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<v Speaker 2>know this. Conspiracy theories used to be a very small beat.

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<v Speaker 2>Disinformation used to be a very small beat. Will Summer,

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<v Speaker 2>who's also on with us right now, used to be

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<v Speaker 2>on this beat with me at the Daily Beast, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>over ten years ago. And now I have this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of saying that we are all disinformation reporters now, So

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<v Speaker 2>everyone who's a political reporter has to be on the

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<v Speaker 2>disinformation beat, has to understand how conspiracy theories and lies

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<v Speaker 2>are used by people to gain power or wealth or

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<v Speaker 2>further some sort of cause, and understand how to track them,

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<v Speaker 2>trace them, understand how to debunk them eventually. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think that it's just the widespread nature of all of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well you've been covering this for a long time

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<v Speaker 1>as well.

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<v Speaker 3>It feels like this is maybe simply what happens when

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<v Speaker 3>a political movement is largely built on conspiracy theories, that

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<v Speaker 3>people with power and influence play in those conspiracy theories,

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<v Speaker 3>play them up in order to win, and then you

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<v Speaker 3>end up with a.

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<v Speaker 1>Situation that brand is covering. Now.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, certainly, I think whether it's Charlie Kirk

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<v Speaker 5>or Donald Trump. These people who promoted conspiracy theories to

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<v Speaker 5>build their bases, to build their political power.

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<v Speaker 1>Often they then face that themselves.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, whether it's I mean, Turning Point USA played

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<v Speaker 5>in a lot of these conspiracy theories. Charlie Kirk had

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<v Speaker 5>his own show those sort of devoted conspiracy theories, and

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<v Speaker 5>now we're seeing that unfortunately really rebound against his family

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<v Speaker 5>and his organization.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, some of it's a nightmare watching the ways in

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<v Speaker 3>which people, you know, his wife for what happened, which

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<v Speaker 3>is quite disturbing.

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<v Speaker 1>Rick. I want to bring you in here. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you are.

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<v Speaker 3>Someone who has probably understands the Republican Party and it's

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<v Speaker 3>the way it's changed and the way the Right has

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<v Speaker 3>infiltrated in taking over the Republican Party. You're probably not

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<v Speaker 3>surprised at this, and I don't know if you've watched

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<v Speaker 3>the documentary.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's probably things that you have been talking about

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<v Speaker 1>that you know that this was where we were going

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<v Speaker 1>to end up. What does this end?

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<v Speaker 3>I think you know Brandy's concern that we're not going back.

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<v Speaker 1>I shared it. I assume you do as well.

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<v Speaker 6>I really do you, Gene and people believe in conspiracy

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<v Speaker 6>theories to give themselves a sense of coherence. But the

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<v Speaker 6>people that are selling these conspiracy theories, as Brandy pointed out,

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<v Speaker 6>this is an industrial part of what I call the

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<v Speaker 6>influencer industrial complex. On the right, you've got the Candice

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<v Speaker 6>Owens is and the Alice Jones is and a million

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<v Speaker 6>other imitators, and these people are making money off of

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<v Speaker 6>trying to give MAGA voters a sense of coherence and

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<v Speaker 6>understanding and giving them like this is the secret esoteric

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<v Speaker 6>knowledge they don't want you to know. And that's a

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<v Speaker 6>very profitable niche. And while Donald Trump used conspiracy theories

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<v Speaker 6>to gain more political power, these people are gaining more eyeballs,

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<v Speaker 6>more clicks, more subscribes, and they're using it, or they're

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<v Speaker 6>using it because there's a powerful financial incidentive for a

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<v Speaker 6>lot of them. I don't know how we wrap this up,

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<v Speaker 6>but it is. As you know Brandy point out, everybody's

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<v Speaker 6>got to be a disinformation reporter now, and everybody's got

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<v Speaker 6>to focus in their own life on not reposting the

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<v Speaker 6>thing that you think is, you know, really cool right away,

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<v Speaker 6>because that temptation relies on the virality of social media

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<v Speaker 6>to spread these things.

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<v Speaker 3>Further discernment is lacking on social media, Brandy in the

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<v Speaker 3>minute that I have left that to end this up,

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<v Speaker 3>maybe a more hopeful notice a very depressive segment so far.

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<v Speaker 3>When you talk to experts on misinformation, disinformation conspiracy theories,

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<v Speaker 3>is there a way to get maybe not owens and

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<v Speaker 3>people at the same time, but person by person, to

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<v Speaker 3>pull them back from operating within this world.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know about experts. Maybe I'm going to quote

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<v Speaker 2>myself because I feel like I've been actually these things

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<v Speaker 2>long enough. I was just at the Tyler Robinson hearing recently,

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<v Speaker 2>and I spoke with a lot of people who were

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<v Speaker 2>there in the crowd that were very much of the

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<v Speaker 2>opinion that Erica Kirk was in on some cover up

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<v Speaker 2>of the murder of her husband. And what was striking

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<v Speaker 2>to me is that these people who believed it were

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<v Speaker 2>sitting behind I'm sorry, we're sitting in front of her

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<v Speaker 2>the next day at one of these hearings and.

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<v Speaker 1>Just being close with her.

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<v Speaker 2>When I talked to them later that same day, they said, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was wrong, and I feel really really

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<v Speaker 2>bad for ever having thought that, because they heard her cry,

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<v Speaker 2>they heard her talking to Charlie Kirk's mother, and so

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<v Speaker 2>they had that personal experience. I think we have to

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<v Speaker 2>get to a point where we can empathize. Obviously everyone

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<v Speaker 2>can't meet Erica Kirk, but I think we can get

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<v Speaker 2>to a point where we treat other people as humans

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<v Speaker 2>and don't just see them as you know, characters and

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<v Speaker 2>conspiracy theory or characters on the internet, but really humanize

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<v Speaker 2>those people that we're talking about before we spread things

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<v Speaker 2>about them.